#indiewebcamp 2014-06-11

2014-06-11 UTC
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GWG Other than Facebook Twitter, Gplus, and Instagram, what sites with embed code are people likely to reply to?
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GWG Youtube maybe
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GWG Hmm..
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GWG Hi gRegor
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bret GWG flickr?
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bret github, quora
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GWG They all have embed code?
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GWG Any do oembed?
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bret oh snap
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bret really!? this looks cool
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bret well flickr IS the example on http://oembed.com/
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onewheelskyward pinterest
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onewheelskyward Is the other social network we use.
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GWG I have never done pinterest. But I am writing reply code for my site
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onewheelskyward Me, either. But it has a following.
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GWG onewheelskyward, what prompted your username? pikot?
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GWG Pilot?
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onewheelskyward Close. Motorcycle.
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onewheelskyward I had a 929 that was geared down rather dramatically. Which led to many a one-wheeled take-off from lights in California.
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GWG Smaller
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onewheelskyward The bike was running Pilots at the time.
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GWG What brings you to the chat?
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@hellekin @ravenio @efecto99 @joindiaspora @GNUsocial @TrsstProject @indiewebcamp has my preference for now. Simple, static, standard. (twitter.com/_/status/476528032451395585)
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kylewm GWG, more things someone might reply to: news articles, wikipedia articles
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kylewm or repost
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GWG I was thinking sites with embed code.
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kylewm sorry I missed that caveat
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@hellekin @ravenio @efecto99 @joindiaspora @GNUsocial @TrsstProject @indiewebcamp There is also @twister. I lost all my handles during the alpha tho. (twitter.com/_/status/476528880501936128)
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GWG My plan is to use embed code for anything that has some and style everything else independently
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kylewm GWG, i support you as long as you read this first ;) http://adactio.com/journal/5698/
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kylewm (barnaby pointed me to that article when I asked about using twitter's embed code)
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: nice link :) adactio seems always on point
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GWG kylewm: And what did you decide?
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pdurbin kylewm: that *is* a nice link. thanks
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@hellekin @ravenio @efecto99 @joindiaspora @GNUsocial @TrsstProject @indiewebcamp Whoops sorry @twister, I meant @TwisterPtoP. (twitter.com/_/status/476537800997613568)
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@hellekin #DissentTuesday @joindiaspora @GNUsocial @TrsstProject @indiewebcamp @TwisterPtoP @youbrokethenet @secushare Now we're talking. (twitter.com/_/status/476538126023032833)
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@efecto99 RT @hellekin: @ravenio @efecto99 @joindiaspora @GNUsocial @TrsstProject @indiewebcamp has my preference for now. Simple, static, standard. (twitter.com/_/status/476538627359793152)
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acegiak morning, all
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Loqi acegiak: GWG left you a message 6 hours, 6 minutes ago: Pushed again, updated roadmap with plans. Starting to build display elements
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acegiak GWG: how are you going with display elements?
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GWG acegiak: Did you see what I pushed?
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acegiak looking inow
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acegiak fiddling with android timestep now
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acegiak I think setting it to delta might actually be the best way to go
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acegiak wrong channel, sorry
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GWG acegiak: Android timestep?
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acegiak GWG: working on a game, our android build has been running at weird speeds
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GWG Oh
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kylewm brainstorm: if EvilAaronpk made CloneYourGram, a POOS service that copies your instagrams to twitter, I think it would be very popular
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bret lol
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GWG acegiak: So, what do you think?
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acegiak GWG: it's good work
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acegiak I'm just merging the two branches so that my content filter makes use of your functions
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GWG acegiak: I've been doing this since I started with these Indieweb plugins a few months back.
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GWG acegiak: I build it, then dismantle it into little pieces. I'm trying to get better at building the pieces first.
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acegiak yeah, makes sense
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GWG acegiak: It seems to work. Then I go back and break it into even more pieces.
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GWG acegiak: So, for the kind stuff, the next step, which I noted into the README, is the code that will display the URL being responded to. So I turned to the Wordpress Embed system
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acegiak alright, I'mmma test this merge and if it's all good I'll do a pull request
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GWG Ok
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acegiak GWG: /win 3
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acegiak sorry, typo
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aaronpk kylewm++
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Loqi kylewm has 17 karma
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aaronpk what is poos?
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acegiak GWG: I'm not sure I like doing things like embedding textual content? seems like asking for trouble with shifting urls etc?
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acegiak but then, I'm hotlinking content images which isn't much better...
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GWG Well, my plan would address that for you.
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GWG The design I'm thinking is that it checks the Wordpress Embed Provider, and if the site isn't supported, it defaults to a local handler.
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GWG I'll take pfefferle's philosophy every time I ask him that sort of question
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acegiak is the intention to not need a citation field?
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GWG I'll add a hook.
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GWG acegiak: More offloading visual presentation to the provider.
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acegiak so then indieweb sites need to be oembed providers?
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GWG acegiak: No. Then it falls back to a non-embed provider. But you can always write a handler for any site and add it to your installation
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acegiak oh ok
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kylewm haha POOS is Post Only On Silos. sadly I didn't come up with it
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aaronpk oh right!
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aaronpk I did make this a while back... http://flickstagram.org/
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aaronpk 1.5 million photos copied from instagram to flickr... not bad
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onewheelskyward heh, funny
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onewheelskyward I want the other way around
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onewheelskyward But instagram doesn't have an import.
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Loqi gives onewheelskyward the other way around
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onewheelskyward lol
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GWG Sorry...Call From Paris
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GWG Did I miss anything?
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acegiak GWG: just trying to work out what situations I need to throw an h-cite into the class list
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GWG The conditionals will likely get more complicated.
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acegiak mos def
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GWG Note, the way I set it up is partly based on tantek's suggestion about building one feature at a time, and one thing...like, reply, etc at a time.
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GWG I needed a baseline to start from before doing that.
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acegiak yeah definitely
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aaronpk tantek: which homebrew website meeting was the photo from outside?
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tantek it says in the caption
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aaronpk oh hey it's on the home page :)
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tantek :)
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tantek it looks the prettiest and most fun :D
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tantek andi made us look all goofy ;)
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aaronpk it worked
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aaronpk ok to upload to the wiki? it's hotlinked right now
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aaronpk has a new appreciate for not hot-linking after attempting to back up the oauth.net wiki
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aaronpk s/appreciate/appreciation
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Loqi aaronpk meant to say: has a new appreciation for not hot-linking after attempting to back up the oauth.net wiki
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GWG But this brings up a question back to the discussion I was having with acegiak a few moments ago. Would you hot-link and/or embed to a silo?
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aaronpk no, I want the site to be standalone
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Loqi gives aaronpk the site to be standalone
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aaronpk oh thanks loqi, that was easy
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Loqi you're welcome
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aaronpk i want to be able to download a copy and read the whole thing offline
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GWG Right now, I'm just trying to get the thing up. I think offline access can be a goal later.
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aaronpk naturally
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tantek aaronpk - not my photo, it's andi's photo
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tantek so you'll have to ask her - re: uploading
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GWG Does anyone think the best way to preserve a post on a site is screenshot, rather than citation?
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bret hrmm, only superficially
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GWG bret: I'm brainstorming
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bret aaronpk posted a screenshot of a hoax article and people belived it
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aaronpk that wasn't just a screeenshot
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bret i only saw the screenshot
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GWG Wonder what the solution is.
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bret im going to go with just storing a copy of a reply context
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bret no screenshot
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bret that seems difficult to do programatically
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aaronpk it's getting easier
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GWG But what does a reply-context look like and how you store it is another big question that would delay putting anything up.
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bret parsing h-entry vs toying with image magic
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bret GWG: http://indiewebcamp.com/reply-context ?
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aaronpk https://github.com/AdamN/python-webkit2png/
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acegiak reply contexts are the trick
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GWG acegiak: Someone is working on that
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bret i think parsing the reply context and re-displaying it is probrably enough evidence that someone said something
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bret in most cases
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GWG bret: pfefferle is working on that for Wordpress, the CMS both acegiak and I use.
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bret the question is, is it evil to keep a hidden copy of something someoe requests a delete for, like how its evil for facebook to do it?
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GWG bret: Unless you have a takedown request, I suppose
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acegiak GWG: pull request there for you
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GWG acegiak: I used a different file structure so both could co-exist, actually, by the way
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bret we could cryptographically sign our posts, and the reply contexts would allow for verification
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bret hehe
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aaronpk you *can* do any number of things. the real question is what is the end goal.
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aaronpk why do you need to prove/verify/whatever that the thing was posted
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bret i just want all your pretty faces to show up next to my post
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GWG bret: Hmm...
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GWG acegiak: Merged
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aaronpk I can tell you from personal experience that courts will go off of a printout of a screenshot of a tweet, they don't need more than that in some cases.
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aaronpk even if the tweet has been deleted
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bret ha!
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bret in which case, that hoax website is tool for legal terrorism
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bret >:{D
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GWG acegiak: I may make a few modifications to your code. For one, I want to add a class that is common to all of the responses.
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acegiak GWG: code discussion should be in here
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GWG acegiak: I agree. How did it get in there?
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acegiak who knows
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GWG But, either way, wrapping the post content in e-content could be a problem
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GWG For example, take Sempress
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rascul why would it be a problem?
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GWG It already wraps the_content in the right classes. By doing it within the content filter, you would be effectively doing it twice
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rascul oh ok, it's an implementation specific issue i guess
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rascul not something i need to worry about for making my site i mean
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GWG rascul: Yes. It is specific to the Wordpress plugin work we're doing
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rascul i apparently had missed the context
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rascul it only caught my eye because i had just been playing with h-entry and e-content yesterday and was still on my mind
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GWG acegiak: My point was that the filter should only mark up itself, not the other content.
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rascul ooo staring at sempress search results on duckduckgo just helped me come up with an idea how to store things for my site heh
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GWG rascul: Oh?
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rascul see at first i was trying to come up with some sort of alternative to metadata/front matter
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rascul and i figured i could parse it out with mf2py which works fine but leaves a bunch of ugly html at the top of the markdown files
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rascul solution i now have that is easier than all my other ideas is file names
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rascul filename="$(date --utc +%s)-article-title.md"
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rascul this seems so simple and obvious to me that i'm surprised it took me this long to figure it out
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rascul at first i didn't want date in path because it makes it hard for me to figure stuff out when i list the files, but this way is easy for me and is automagically sorted by date when i ls
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kylewm rascul: is date/title the only thing you wanted to store in front matter?
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rascul yes
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rascul i can't really think of anything else to put there
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rascul or at least anything else i need to put there
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kylewm tags, location, in-reply-to urls, are the types of things i stick in there
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rascul i'm happy to express all that in microformats inside the post
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kylewm but if you don't need that stuff or have a different way to store it, that's great
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kylewm oh cool, i like that then
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rascul the site generator doesn't need to know all that i don't think
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rascul but then i get the problem i was trying to avoid at one time of mixing markdown and html, but i don't think that can be avoided unless i go all html
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rascul markdown + html is ugly
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KartikPrabhu i write posts in all html
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rascul also i discovered that mf2py was closing my <p> tags
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KartikPrabhu html5lib does that.
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rascul ahh ok
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rascul didn't bother me, but i often don't close them just to avoid the extra typing heh
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KartikPrabhu html5 parsers are supposed to do see html just like browsers
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rascul same with <li>
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KartikPrabhu <li> does not need to close according to HTML5 spec iirc
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rascul i mean, i often don't close <li>, i didn't mean that mf2py does because i didn't notice that
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rascul <p> also is not required to be closed
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rascul umm well sometimes anyway
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rascul see this validates http://rascul.io/p.html http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=rascul.io%2Fp.html
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KartikPrabhu yup
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aaronparecki.com uploaded /File:2014-05-21-hwc-sf1.jpg "Photo by @andigalpern. Uploaded by permission: https://twitter.com/andigalpern/status/476567742804271104"
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aaronparecki.com edited /events/2014-05-21-homebrew-website-club (-11) "/* Photos */ replace with local photo" (view diff)
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cweiske.de edited /User:Cweiske.de (+89) (view diff)
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cweiske.de created /indieauth-openid (+342) "Created page with "Proxies IndieAuth authorization requests to one's OpenID server. Lets you login with your OpenID server to indieauth sites. ;Code: : http://git.cweiske.de/indieauth-openid.git/..."" (view diff)
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cweiske.de edited /indieauth-openid (+24) (view diff)
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cweiske aaronpk, who wrote the mediawiki indieauth plugin? when will it support federated logins?
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aaronpk I did. it just delegates to indieauth.com to handle logins. so as soon as I make indieauth.com understand federated logins the wiki will support it.
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cweiske so it will be wiki -> indieauth.com -> indieauth.id.cweiske.de -> id.cweiske.de -> indieauuth.id.cweiske.de -> indieauth.com -> wiki
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aaronpk sounds about right
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@jalbertbowdenii @algore magna carta of interwebs is being constructed by @indiewebcamp go to indie tech summit ask for @aral https://indietech.org/summit/ (twitter.com/_/status/476616359242379264)
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aaronpk precursor to webmentions: http://indiewebcamp.com/2012/Own_Your_Comments##enhance+pingback
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aaronparecki.com moved /2014/SF_Schedule to /2014/SF/Schedule
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aaronparecki.com edited /2014/SF/Schedule (+23) "add to Schedule category" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /2014/SF/Schedule (+0) (view diff)
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cweiske aaronpk, I'm confused by the names. did I implement an indieauth-openid proxy, a rel-me-proxy or something else?
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cweiske when I see https://github.com/indieweb/indieauth-client-php, it's probably an indieauth-openid proxy
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aaronpk i think indieauth-openid proxy sounds right
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cweiske http://indiewebcamp.com/IndieAuth is too much about indieauth.com instead of the protocol itself
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aaronpk agreed
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aaronpk i was planning on rearranging it once I get more of the specific pages done
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aaronpk I also stubbed http://indiewebcamp.com/indieauth.com which a lot of that will move onto
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cweiske.de edited /IndieAuth (+90) "/* OpenID support */ mention indieauth-openid" (view diff)
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cweiske.de edited /OpenID (+23) "/* IndieWeb Examples */" (view diff)
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cweiske.de edited /distributed-indieauth (+25) "/* Use an authorization service */" (view diff)
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aaronpk course you could always come up with a clever name for your indieauth+openid service
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aaronpk i'm terrible at naming things tho
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cweiske the jokes were made yesterday already
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cweiske i'm fine with indieauth-openid
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aaronpk alright i'm going to bed, it's super late! was working on the sponsorship page this evening.
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aaronpk congrats again on getting that working! super cool!
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cweiske thx
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cweiske 224 LOC
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cweiske.de edited /login-brainstorming (+137) "/* Request */" (view diff)
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glennjones.net edited /2014/Guest_List (+494) "/* Remote Participants */" (view diff)
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cweiske.de edited /distributed-indieauth (+131) (view diff)
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cweiske.de edited /Taproot (+30) "/* IndieWeb Support */" (view diff)
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cweiske.de edited /distributed-indieauth (+41) "/* Sites that support distributed IndieAuth */" (view diff)
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cweiske !tell aaronpk - taproot/barnabywalters gives a incomplete URL as client_id: client_id=waterpigs.co.uk - is that allowed?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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cweiske.de edited /authorization-endpoint (+26) "/* See Also */" (view diff)
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@glennjones Just signup to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014 as a remote participants, loved to have gone again, but flight costs too much in Jun #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/476639196321681408)
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cweiske.de edited /authorization-endpoint (+104) "/* See Also */" (view diff)
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cweiske.de edited /login-brainstorming (+4) "/* Authorization Endpoint */" (view diff)
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cweiske.de edited /distributed-indieauth (+23) (view diff)
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cweiske.de edited /indieauth-openid (+4) (view diff)
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cweiske.de edited /OpenID (+36) "/* IndieWeb Examples */" (view diff)
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cweiske.de edited /OpenID (+89) "/* Why does IndieAuth not consume OpenID? */" (view diff)
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cweiske.de edited /OpenID (+8) "/* Why does IndieAuth not consume OpenID? */" (view diff)
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@contactoffice How we're on the verge of an amazing new open web #indieweb - http://werd.io/2014/how-were-on-the-verge-of-an-amazing-new-open (twitter.com/_/status/476642545683161088)
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pfefferle cweiske++
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Loqi cweiske has 8 karma
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pfefferle cweiske nice indieauth/openid mapper!
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cweiske thanks
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pfefferle will try to set it up later
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@hugoroyd @Le_PAH si on veut. C'est dans le mouvement #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/476665706583719936)
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@hugoroyd @Le_PAH l'idée: http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (twitter.com/_/status/476665765811482624)
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Loqi [mention] https://ampoliros.net/2014/le_pah-il-y-a-dautres-outils-et-protocoles-dvelopps-pour linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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@krijnsoeteman @Loremann there are some workarounds (but definately not working for everything yet) indieweb, posse etc. http://dangillmor.com/2014/04/25/indie-web-important/ (twitter.com/_/status/476677923395870720)
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@hugoroyd RT @withknown: Working to bridge the #indieweb knowledge gap http://stream.withknown.com/2014/working-to-bridge-the-indieweb-knowledge-gap (twitter.com/_/status/476685597428682752)
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@mapkyca Made replying to posts from my site much much easier, now if more sites supported webmentions: http://webmention.org (twitter.com/_/status/476688295746093057)
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GWG Good day
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GWG pfefferle: I have a question for you
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pfefferle GWG and I hope I have an answer ;)
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GWG pfefferle: To what degree do you think a filter and or action hook is the answer to adding functionality? Been working on that project that acegiak is also contributing to
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GWG pfefferle: I ask because I've been putting in filters
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pfefferle I depends on the use case… I tried to focus only on webmention stuff for the webmention-plugin but I implemented nearly every parsing use-case in the semantic-linkbacks plugin
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GWG pfefferle: How so?
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pfefferle I like to keep plugins simple… everything that fits the scope should be part of the plugin and every special case should be handled seperately
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pfefferle semantic-linkbacks implements mf2 parsing but allows other parsers to hook in
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cweiske barnabywalters, your indieauth login does not send a full URL as client_id
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cweiske only waterpigs.co.uk, without http://
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cweiske why?
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GWG pfefferle: Do you have any advice for me? The Indieweb Taxonomy plugin is essentially the inverse of the semantic-linkbacks plugin. Semantic-Linkbacks adds the same thing to the comments type that Indieweb Taxonomy adds to the post type
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barnabywalters cweiske: can’t remember, so it’s probably a bug
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barnabywalters either that, or I was thinking that it would be used on sites in “posted via X” attributions
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barnabywalters where the URL without the scheme would look cleaner
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barnabywalters but yeah, it’s probably a better idea to provide an actual URL
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pfefferle GWG: oh, I hope I won’t change it… But I think I would keep it like that if it should work independently from the semantic-linkbacks plugin
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GWG pfefferle: It should. One is for adding the layer to comments, the other for adding the same layer to posts
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GWG Although it may overlap with the reply-context plugin.
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pfefferle GWG we should add the meta-keys to the WIKI to stay compatible
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cweiske barnabywalters, please tell me once you fixed it. I'll try my indieauth proxy then on it
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barnabywalters cweiske: will do
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pfefferle GWG can you send me the url to the plugin we are talking about?
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GWG This one https://github.com/dshanske/indieweb-taxonomy/
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GWG Although acegiak 's latest commit is something I have to make some changes to.
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GWG petermolnar: That character count code...why not throw that into a plugin?
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petermolnar because I was lazy to to that and because it's not working in tinymce mode yet
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petermolnar but good point :)
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petermolnar and in the future I'll probably do it
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GWG petermolnar: I could use the counting
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GWG petermolnar: I will defer to you. I have enough Wordpress projects right now
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petermolnar I might have some time on Saturday to put it together, including the brilliant subversion of Wordpress.org
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GWG petermolnar: Even if you put it in a repository, people can download it
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petermolnar yes, but I'd like to solve why it's not working with the visual mode yet
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GWG On that note, must head off for a bit and contemplate if I should split off the location bits I put in the Taxonomy plugin into their own plugin or leave it where it is
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petermolnar GWG: http://pastebin.com/7HynphW9
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petermolnar I'll put together a plugin for it
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petermolnar ( this counts tinymce as well, autop not included )
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sixtwothree.org edited /projects (+65) "/* Jekyll */" (view diff)
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aaronpk good morning!
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Loqi aaronpk: cweiske left you a message 6 hours, 57 minutes ago: - taproot/barnabywalters gives a incomplete URL as client_id: client_id=waterpigs.co.uk - is that allowed?
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aaronpk yes I think full URLs should be required as the client_id
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barnabywalters aaronpk: if that’s not part of the spec/docs then it should be — “id” is rather vague
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aaronpk yeah I agree
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barnabywalters might also be a good idea to specify, or at least suggest some really basic client app property discovery
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barnabywalters e.g. name, photo, URL
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aaronpk yeah!
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barnabywalters just the basics required to display a nice graphic and link
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barnabywalters the most appropriate microformat tbh is probably h-product or even h-item
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barnabywalters we could also use h-x-app
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barnabywalters bnvk and I were documenting some common app properties in sight of creating app store discovery, and there’s plenty of other existing work on app-describing vocabs which is valid prior research
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aaronpk yeah cool
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aaronpk the idea is the OAuth screen should say "this app wants to ____" and show the app icon and name etc
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barnabywalters on http://indiewebcamp.com/store
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aaronpk see the tiny note here: http://indiewebcamp.com/auth-brainstorming#Authorization
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barnabywalters might it be worth forcing the u-url property of any discovery to at least have the same domain as the client_id? either that or ensure that the client_id is surfaced somewhere in the authorization UI
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barnabywalters otherwise that’s a really obvious identity fraud exploit
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aaronpk probably should require a match
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barnabywalters aaronpk: actually yeah an exact match is safest
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barnabywalters the one use-case I had for them being different but same domain was wrong
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barnabywalters yeah, a h-card isn’t really suitable here because an app isn’t a person, organisation or other contactable entity
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barnabywalters I’ll mark up my endpoint with h-product and h-x-app
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petermolnar !tell GWG https://github.com/petermolnar/content_excerpt_count
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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petermolnar I had a few minutes
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GWG petermolnar, thanks
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Loqi GWG: petermolnar left you a message 8 minutes ago: https://github.com/petermolnar/content_excerpt_count
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /store (-21) "/* Protocols */ h-product is a vocab, not a protocol" (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /store (+171) "/* Vocabularies */ criticism of DOAP site" (view diff)
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aaronpk barnabywalters: k! update the indieauth pages to reference h-app then too
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barnabywalters aaronpk: h-app doesn’t exist yet :) I need to take all bnvk’s research to the microformats wiki and start brainstorming. but for the moment h-x-app h-product with name, logo and URL will do fine
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barnabywalters wonders whether the difference between logo and photo is significant
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aaronpk i'm gonna also want redirect_uri in there, which is how apps "register" their valid redirect URIs
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barnabywalters ugh now I have to finally come up with a logo for taproot, without using a cliché tree
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barnabywalters ha ha ha, a google image search for “taproot” is not very helpful https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=taproot&tbs=imgo:1&gws_rd=ssl
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@nobantu Registration is OPEN for #IIW XIX #19 Take advantage of SUPER EarlyBird Prices now: https://www.eventbrite.com/e/internet-identity-workshop-xix-19-2014b-tickets-11845172229 #identity #VRM #UMA #Indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/476775711722582016)
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aaronpk thought I got my first webmention spam
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aaronpk turns out it was just bad markup causing the wrong p-name to be displayed
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aaronpk check this out http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2014/06/10/1/arduino-sparkcore-hardware##Boko
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barnabywalters oh hey cool, a new indiewebber
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barnabywalters another aaron!
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barnabywalters hrm, h-feed doesn’t have a “p-title” property. another issue to raise on sempress, perhaps
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barnabywalters eh, easy enough for a PR
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@dinchamion This. <3 #TheWebWeWant #IndieWeb via @Firefox https://webwewant.mozilla.org/en/ (twitter.com/_/status/476786804499046400)
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barnabywalters thoughts/feedback on first draft Taproot logo? http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4WYJVV/
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aaronpk neat
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aaronpk you should look at it at like 48px tho
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Loqi agreed.
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barnabywalters aaronpk: yep, I have a bunch if plans for smaller versions
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barnabywalters basically less stuff when it’s smaller — fewer triangles, single green connecting line between each
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aaronpk keep distilling it down so that it looks good small. then chances are that will look good large.
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aaronpk the best logos have very few and highly recognizable components
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KartikPrabhu barnabywalters: IMO too many colours! Simple icons with 3-4 colours seem best
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KartikPrabhu i like the carrot inspiration though :)
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KartikPrabhu also SVG please ;)
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barnabywalters aaronpk: true — I think my instinct to start big was that a) that I always draw tiny detailed things, and b) from remembering when I thought that 512px was totally a great size to design iOS icons at, and that there’d totally never be any reason to have larger ones :)
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barnabywalters KartikPrabhu: thanks! I quite like having variations in colour but agreed there might be too many here. and of course I will provide a SVG version, but for publishing drafts it’s SO MUCH CODE to write
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KartikPrabhu agrees
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aaronpk you write SVG code by hand?
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KartikPrabhu inkscape is your friend... sort of
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: most drawing software have a lot of cruft in SVG, you'd have to edit it later anyway
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barnabywalters aaronpk: sometimes :) but using sketch for this. I’m actually referring to code used to embed it
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barnabywalters it’s at least eight times more effort than PNG
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bnvk what is to-do?
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Loqi http://indiewebcamp.com/To-do
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aaronpk ah
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aaronpk i thought svgs worked in <img> tags
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KartikPrabhu yeah they do
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barnabywalters export twice, upload twice, write <object>, remember SVG mime type, add <img> with PNG, add text description
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bnvk has anyone played with MF for to-do list items?
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KartikPrabhu i think barnabywalters wants to support SVG with fallback
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aaronpk ah
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KartikPrabhu bnvk: not that I recall
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barnabywalters I guess I could improve my file upload UI…
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aaronpk my "file upload UI" is Skitch pointing to my WebDAV endpoint :)
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barnabywalters 1) if the client detects that the to-be-uploaded file is a SVG, add another file upload dialogue for a fallback PNG
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barnabywalters then after upload, auto-insert correct markup
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KartikPrabhu barnabywalters: or do it in code on server using imagemagick?
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bnvk a decentralized to-do list using MF and web-mention just popped into my brain, seems like it would solve many of the worlds problems
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barnabywalters KartikPrabhu: does that produce good results? I’ve never found the magic setting in imagemagic/gd which makes it produce images which look good
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barnabywalters bnvk: there’s xoxo for HTML outlines: http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo
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KartikPrabhu barnabywalters: haven't really played with it, but have been thinking of doing so for my own site for SVG fallbacks
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barnabywalters bnvk: if your idea of a “todo list” scales all the way up to things like trello, then each item/card could just be a h-entry
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barnabywalters and then marking something as “done” is just another response type like RSVP
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barnabywalters and “assigning” a task to someone is just like inviting someone to an event
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aaronpk I haven't even found a todo list mechanism that I like using, much less an app
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barnabywalters comments are obviously comments
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barnabywalters aaronpk: we use trello at work and have had some success with it. it’s flexible enough that it can be moulded to our liking
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barnabywalters other than that I just use text files
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aaronpk I like where this is going though. todo lists are a good "hello world" app.
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bret Would be fun to build that on top of task warrior
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bret Todo is haarrrrddd. It's ieasy to make a todo system that requires a todo list to manage
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barnabywalters bret++
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Loqi bret has 13 karma
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aaronpk bret++
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Loqi bret has 14 karma
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barnabywalters bnvk: thanks for the feedback! to clarify, making the logo actually look like carrots is not what I’m going for :) Tor already took that idea
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barnabywalters agreed about the shape changes though
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bnvk barnabywalters: yes, exactly about the h-entry
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bnvk and on the receiving end, a client could choose to "accept" the RSVP (or todo item) onto their list
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barnabywalters this whole todo thing is quite similar to indieweb code issues, which has been discussed a little
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bnvk barnabywalters: but tor took onion, not a carrot
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barnabywalters and that’s certainly what I would use this for
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bnvk but, it's your logo, I was just thinking a nice vector carrot would look cool
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barnabywalters bnvk: yeah, but I don’t want to do a me-too “vegetable logo” — it’ll just look like I’m copying Tor
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barnabywalters agreed that vector carrots are the hotness
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bnvk lolz
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bnvk I def wouldn't think one other tech company (that does something quite diff) has a vegetable you were me too-ing it
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bnvk :)
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bnvk barnabywalters: it's just the current iteration is on the road to really neat abstract colored logo, but had you not posted the picture below, I never would have guessed carrots
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barnabywalters bnvk: that’s a good thing! carrots were the starting point, not the goal
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barnabywalters they just happened to weirdly match a bunch of indieweb symbolism
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barnabywalters much as the tor onion symbolises how tor works
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bnvk carry on then
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KartikPrabhu fwiw: I guessed carrots before seeing the picture :)
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barnabywalters KartikPrabhu: you are the carrot master
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KartikPrabhu i mean that's what "taproot" means right :D
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barnabywalters choosing one green is exponentially more difficult than choosing a bunch of different greens, it turns out
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bret Carrot master would be a good project name
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KartikPrabhu ha! I'll suggest it next time aaronpk asks for project names :P
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cweiske.de edited /login-brainstorming (+282) "/* Request */" (view diff)
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bnvk Master of the Carrots
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cweiske carrot ironfounderson?
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aaronparecki.com edited /login-brainstorming (+9) "/* Request */ scope not used here" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /auth-brainstorming (+12) "/* Summary */ add "scope" to request for the authorization example" (view diff)
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aaronpk cweiske: "scope" was missing from the "auth-brainstorming" page, but not from the "login-brainstorming" page. good catch tho.
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barnabywalters cweiske: a Pratchett fan?
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cweiske when having all the books (including world of poo) counts as fan, then yes :)
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cweiske and "where is my cow"
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barnabywalters impressive!
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cweiske the two are my most recent aquisitions. both are available in english only, which is ok for where is my cow - instant translation while reading the kids is easy, but impossible for world of poo
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barnabywalters updated logo designs: http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4WYKRG/
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aaronpk ooh getting better
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aaronparecki.com uploaded /File:indiewebcamp-2014-sponsorship-prospectus.pdf "Also see: [[how-to-sponsor]]"
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Jeena I implemented a local cache for webmention avatars. As always the biggest problem is not solved yet, cache invalidation. I'm not quite sure how to do it, I would need to add metadata to the files somehow do know when to redownload the images. But where would I put it ...
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snarfed Jeena: the age old solution is polling
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aaronpk if we assumed URLs never changed, then the solution is simple
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aaronpk for example when you upload a new avatar to twitter, it gets a new URL
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aaronpk then any future posts would reference the new filename
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aaronpk is tempted to do that and just see what happens
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snarfed aaronpk: huh. i actually wonder if twitter already does that right now
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snarfed looking
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Jeena yeah that was the reason I did it
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snarfed aaronpk: why yes it does. tweet.author.image.url in their JSON data
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Jeena I just wanted to prevent the non existent avatars if someone uploads a new one
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snarfed totally
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snarfed bridgy is dumb and just rechecks every user every couple hrs or so: https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/blob/master/cron.py#L40
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Jeena but polling the twitter api to get the new avatar seems kind of a overkill
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snarfed eh it's fine for a small # of users
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aaronpk that's what i'm saying, no polling needed
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snarfed exactly, aaronpk's solution is way better, and works right now. brilliant!
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aaronpk stash the avatar at a URL that matches the remote URL ( see http://indiewebcamp.com/indiearchive )
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Jeena but what with people like me who change the image but the url is still the same
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aaronpk then new tweets will reference a new URL which you'll then go fetch and save. you'll end up storing several avatars per person btu that's probably good actually.
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barnabywalters is going to have to over-ride the display of bridgy’s default “favourited” message with the proper spelling ;)
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snarfed Jeena: the filename is usually different. i'd guess twitter actually *always* makes it different
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@netdivermag @indiewebcamp 2014 -> two days of brainstorming & creating - join to be a part of advancing & growing the indie web. http://indiewebcamp.com/2014 (twitter.com/_/status/476809291652145152)
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snarfed barnabywalters: lol
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Jeena snarfed yes, twitter does, Facebook doesn't, I don't either so the cache would never be updated
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aaronpk in twitter's case yeah, but I think Jeena was talking about indieweb avatars
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Jeena exactly
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snarfed aha
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snarfed twitter is really the only problem child of the silos
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aaronpk i kind of like this design pattern actually
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snarfed so in parallel, we keep lobbying twitter to let developers use a long-lived URL that always redirects to the current image, like FB, G+, etc., since what are we, farmers? :P
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aaronpk twitter has that now
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aaronpk https://twitter.com/aaronpk/profile_image always redirects to the current avatar
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aaronpk we could follow a similar pattern.
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aaronpk if you really want to have a well-known avatar URL on your own domain, just send a 302 redirect to the actual file from that URL
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Jeena oh that is cool
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aaronpk then clients caching it can cache based on the final URL
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aaronpk then the caches will be automatically updated when you update your photo
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Jeena but this will never work for everybody
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aaronpk and people still write broken HTML
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barnabywalters who was it talking about having multiple avatars, changing automatically based on emoticons in posts? that was an awesome idea
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aaronpk point is it works, and if some people do it, it becomes a design pattern others can follow
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Jeena people will just upload a different image and expect the clients to change it after the Expire time
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Jeena thats what the expire headers are for
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aaronpk then clients should also respect the expire headers, what's hard about that?
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snarfed aaronpk: but sadly twitter's /profile_image is unreliable and they explicitly tell you not to write code that uses it
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snarfed as opposed to the other silos, which officially support theirs
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aaronparecki.com uploaded /File:indiewebcamp-2014-sponsorship-prospectus-thumbnail.jpg "see [[how-to-sponsor]]"
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barnabywalters bbiab
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Jeena the only thing hard is to where to put the metadata about the image :-p
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snarfed Jeena: EXIF, obviously :P
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Jeena haha, I was thinking about that
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aaronpk oh dear
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Jeena but yeah, that is not cool, I assume I will just add a $id.cache file where I put all the metadata in
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aaronparecki.com edited /how-to-sponsor (+215) "add link to PDF" (view diff)
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@jgarber Just wrapped my first @craftcms plugin! Send webmentions when you save an entry. Words: http://sixtwothree.org/blog/sending-webmentions-with-craft/ Code: https://github.com/jgarber623/craft-webmention-client (twitter.com/_/status/476811320227287041)
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@jgarber New post! “Sending Webmentions with Craft” Give it a read: http://sixtwothree.org/blog/sending-webmentions-with-craft/ (twitter.com/_/status/476812228076007424)
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Jeena the coolest thing about the cache is the speed, getting the avatars from different servers, and then letting the browser resize it took quite some time, now the file size is tiny, 2-3kb and doesn't have to be resized by the browser anymore
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aaronpk you're serving them all from your own domain now?
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Jeena yeah
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aaronpk I wonder if it's worth an optimization like inlining the image into a data URI, or making an avatar CSS sprite
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aaronpk for a facepile with like 20 or more images it might make a difference. not sure tho.
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Jeena first time loading https://jeena.net/photos/9 with about 60 avatars took 3,2 seconds (it needed to get the pictures from facebook and twitter) second time without browser cache but cached on the server 2,2 seconds third with browser cache 820ms
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aaronpk "," is your decimal mark, right?
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Jeena firefox downloaded about 30 of them parallel
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Jeena yes aaronpk
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aaronpk I don't see that very often, heh
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Jeena I'm from Europe :-p
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@trevor_davis RT @jgarber: Just wrapped my first @craftcms plugin! Send webmentions when you save an entry. Words: http://sixtwothree.org/blog/sending-webmentions-with-craft/ Code: https://t… (twitter.com/_/status/476813819470430208)
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Jeena oh no, that is not true, it doesn't download that many of them in parallel, just 4 or 5 at a time it seems
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Jeena hm so first time would be faster to inline them but after that it wouldn't matter a lot I think
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@jgarber Any #indieweb folks using @craftcms? Now you can send webmentions with this plugin: https://github.com/jgarber623/craft-webmention-client /cc @indiewebcamp @t (twitter.com/_/status/476814168679776256)
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@webdesigningtip #widgets : Sending Webmentions with Craft: Last September, while in Brighton for dConstruct, I ... http://viget.com/extend/sending-webmentions-with-craft?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Viget+Extend#When:19:37 #harshgandhitk (twitter.com/_/status/476814339240775680)
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sixtwothree.org edited /webmention (+86) "/* Publishing Software */" (view diff)
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aaronpk nice!
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sixtwothree.org edited /2014/Guest_List (+83) "/* Regrets */" (view diff)
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@beneckerson Sending Webmentions with Craft by the super smart Jason Garber http://viget.com/extend/sending-webmentions-with-craft?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Viget+Extend#When:19:37 (twitter.com/_/status/476817050992922625)
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Jeena Ok, I went for the easy solution. If someone wants to see the avatar and it is older then 2 weeks then I redownload it. If the download doesn't work I just touch the file so it will not hit the cache check for the next two weeks
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Jeena one more cool thing is that all images are now served from a https website
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aaronpk Chris Messina is joining the board of Tagboard! http://blog.tagboard.com/post/88492140025/hashtag-inventor-chris-messina-joins-tagboard
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tantek.com edited /remote_participation (+527) "dfn, equipment, see also" (view diff)
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@fakeviget Sending Webmentions with Craft (by @jgarber) #dev http://viget.com/extend/sending-webmentions-with-craft?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter (twitter.com/_/status/476827491655356416)
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@viget Sending Webmentions with Craft (by @jgarber) #dev http://viget.com/extend/sending-webmentions-with-craft?utm_source=Viget+Social&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=twitter (twitter.com/_/status/476827493379239936)
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wolftune Hi folks
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aaronpk hello wolftune!
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wolftune I want to come attend IndieWebCamp as an apprentice in some sense… basically I've been wanting to get toward indie web and update my own site (currently a mix of Google/Blogger hosted old stuff)
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aaronpk great! which coast are you on? it's happening in Portland and in New York!
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wolftune I live in Oregon City, 15 miles south of Portland
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aaronpk also if you have your own site and can add a link to your twitter or github, you may even be able to sign in to the wiki right now and add yourself to the guest list!
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wolftune I started into more independent directions and concerns about proprietary software and centralization a little over two years ago, but I ended up getting involved in big ambitious Free/Libre/Open type projects and still haven't dealt with my own site
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wolftune My crazy long-term plan is really to start fresh with Yesod and get a server and all
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Loqi [mention] http://www.coderslab.com/programming/other/sending-webmentions-with-craft/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/UK (pingback)
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Loqi [mention] http://www.coderslab.com/programming/other/sending-webmentions-with-craft/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/Principles (pingback)
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Loqi [mention] http://www.coderslab.com/programming/other/sending-webmentions-with-craft/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/building-blocks (pingback)
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Loqi [mention] http://www.coderslab.com/programming/other/sending-webmentions-with-craft/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention (pingback)
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Loqi [mention] http://www.coderslab.com/programming/other/sending-webmentions-with-craft/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention#How_to_Test_Webmentions (pingback)
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wolftune right now, it's a blogger site at blog.wolftune.com and an old Google Sites thing at www.wolftune.com that I haven't touched in years
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Loqi [mention] http://www.coderslab.com/programming/other/sending-webmentions-with-craft/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention#FAQ (pingback)
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Loqi [mention] http://www.coderslab.com/programming/other/sending-webmentions-with-craft/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention#Issues (pingback)
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Loqi [mention] http://www.coderslab.com/programming/other/sending-webmentions-with-craft/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention#Brainstorming (pingback)
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wolftune I kept thinking maybe I could revamp my site before IndieWebCamp but I just keep being busy with the truly independent website I'm building with others that isn't my personal site
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wolftune aaronpk: are you saying I could get things working using the Blogger-hosted or Google Sites thing that is the status quo of wolftune.com ?
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aaronpk possibly, depends on how much markup they let you add
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aaronpk if you can add a link to your twitter profile that has a rel=me attribute then yes
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rascul google sites you can do whatever iirc
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wolftune truth is, I want to escape from all of that… but, well, it's where I'm at right now
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wolftune aaronpk: I have never ever used Twitter
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aaronpk github?
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wolftune ok, yeah I have a GitHub account
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rascul github pages you can use
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aaronpk that'll work then
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aaronpk check out https://indieauth.com/setup
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wolftune I'm confused, I thought IndieWebCamp was about independence from centralized services”½
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cweiske :)
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aaronpk yes
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cweiske welcome in this world
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aaronpk incrementally :)
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rascul you can run your own indieauth stuff
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rascul best to take small steps
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aaronpk also if your email address supports persona you can use that
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aaronpk or SMS
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wolftune the main project I work on uses Persona exclusively (other than a built-in log-in) to be as privacy and indepent-respecting as possible
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wolftune I like Persona overall
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aaronpk so if you already have that set up, just add a link to your email address on your home page like <a href="mailto:you@example.com" rel="me"> then you should be able to sign in to the wiki using persona
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cweiske is anyone besides me running his own indieauth server (not counting indieauth.com)?
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rascul i do like persona it's quite good and can be decentralized and is from mozilla
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wolftune aaronpk: oh cool ok
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rascul cweiske i'm not but it's possible that i might eventually
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wolftune it's too bad that Persona got their funding cut off though
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@IrishDIYBride Personalised napkins can add a gorgeous and memorable touch! Here's how from #indieweb : http://indiewed.com/2013/06/05/diy-day-personalized-napkins/ https://twitter.com/IrishDIYBride/status/476830733479469056/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/476830733479469056)
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wolftune long-term we're hoping to provide Free/Libre/Open projects with more sustainable fundraising, so maybe in the *long* term we can help Persona… ;)
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rascul no didn't get funding cut, they just moved full time devs from it
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aaronpk basically equivalent :)
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wolftune rascul: that's the same thing
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rascul they still support it and fix it and whatnot
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rascul yeah
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wolftune yes
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wolftune they didn't cut ALL support
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rascul i guess they figured it's feature complete
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wolftune thankfully
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wolftune rascul: no, they did NOT think that
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wolftune they thought that their minimal marketting didn't go amazingly well so they gave up and decided to focus on "Firefox Accounts"
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rascul http://identity.mozilla.com/post/78873831485/transitioning-persona-to-community-ownership
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wolftune rascul: right, and that indicates that they did not think it was feature complete by a long-shot. The whole browserID aspect hasn't been done even
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rascul i like to make stuff up when i don't really remember the details
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rascul i do it all the time without even realizing it heh
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wolftune aaronpk: so, I wish it wasn't so, but my domain's e-mail goes through Google still at this time, I don't suppose that's what you meant about authenticating through Persona… I mean, I don't actually authenticate Persona myself, if I use it with the e-mail, it either validates through Mozilla or Google…
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wolftune rascul: heh, it happens
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aaronpk yeah I just mean if you've set up persona it'll work
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wolftune aaronpk: by "set up" you mean, I can use the e-mail…
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wolftune with Persona
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wolftune ?
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aaronpk liek.. if you've ever logged into anything with persona before
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wolftune well yeah
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wolftune ah it's the rel="me" bit that does this then?
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aaronpk yeah
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wolftune aaronpk: one more question: what counts as "home" ? I make http://wolftune.com redirect to blog.wolftune.com right now, but you can successfully go to www.wolftune.com
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snarfed wolftune: just fyi, you can also add webmentions to a blogger blog with https://www.brid.gy/
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aaronpk the redirect handling is a little complicated, but less complicated using email for auth. you should be able to sign in as www.wolftune.com
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aaronpk if you can add your email address link to your blogger blog, then you should be able to sign in as just wolftune.com
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aaronpk i don't know if blogger supports that
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wolftune aaronpk: should be fine then, thanks! I'll figure it out
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Loqi [mention] http://www.wpcoders.org/archives/2342 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/UK (pingback)
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Loqi [mention] http://www.wpcoders.org/archives/2342 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/Principles (pingback)
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Loqi [mention] http://www.wpcoders.org/archives/2342 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/building-blocks (pingback)
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Loqi [mention] http://www.wpcoders.org/archives/2342 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention (pingback)
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Loqi [mention] http://www.wpcoders.org/archives/2342 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention#How_to_Test_Webmentions (pingback)
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Loqi [mention] http://www.wpcoders.org/archives/2342 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention#FAQ (pingback)
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Loqi [mention] http://www.wpcoders.org/archives/2342 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention#Issues (pingback)
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Loqi [mention] http://www.wpcoders.org/archives/2342 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention#Brainstorming (pingback)
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wolftune snarfed: I'm not sure what that is, but I'm wary of all the centralized "social network" things… I still find it weird that IndieWebCamp is referencing them much
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rascul whoa Loqi going crazy!
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Loqi who, me?
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snarfed aaronpk wolftune: blogger does support that. you can edit your template and add arbitrary html
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wolftune snarfed: right, I figured thanks
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snarfed wolftune: understood. IWC references them because they're the reality right now, ie they're in the lead in terms of adoption and features
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snarfed and given that, cooperating with them is more likely to help us succeed (as opposed to fighting and staying disconnected)
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wolftune snarfed: I *really* like the idea of connecting with pragmatists who do what is needed but who are willing to *apologize* for it and acknowledge what stinks!
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snarfed great!
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Jeena rascul I tried to install my own browserid instance but honestly I don't think it is possible with the software which is out there now without writing and implementing quite a lot of stuff
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rascul Jeena i've never tried, i just recall seeing some docs from mozilla about getting it going
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wolftune My personal view is that people should feel the need and the pressure to apologize for using Facebook etc.
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wolftune that's enough though
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Jeena yeah there are docs, but it is a mess ;)
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wolftune otherwise, you don't need to be dogmatic
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snarfed wolftune++ for no dogma
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Loqi wolftune has 1 karma
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snarfed there's a range of opinions here. plenty of us still like and appreciate the silos, as well as wanting our own data
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snarfed regardless, sounds like you'll fit in fine!
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KartikPrabhu sounds like wolftune would be a Gen3 adopter (http://indiewebcamp.com/generations#IndieWeb_Generations) nice... welcome
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wolftune I don't like dogma, but I don't like ambivalence, apathy, or people downplaying and avoiding political issues either
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bret wolftune: what do you mean by "weird that IndieWebCamp is referencing them much
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wolftune KartikPrabhu: yes, but I got "communicating over IRC, and editing wikis… and Comfortable with lengthy documentation." from Gen1, and I'm learning Haskell which is web-based via Yesod (and know basic HTML/CSS)
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bret "
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bret err silios that is
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bret Yesod looks rad, i want to learn it soon
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KartikPrabhu wolftune: nice!
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wolftune bret: I meant like it's weird to me on first impression to see IndieWebCamp have Facebook and Twitter etc prominent in some places
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wolftune bret: you want to learn Yesod?? I've got a project for you!
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bret lol i have a few projects in the qeueue right now, but hit me ;)
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aaronpk wolftune: the key is to own your identity. that's different from saying "don't use silos"
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wolftune aaronpk: huh, interesting…
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wolftune ok
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bret wolftune: what do you mean by 'have' twitter/facebook in places?
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wolftune well, just making sense of things here
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bret does it seem like we are promoting their use?
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wolftune bret: are you a software-freedom sorta supporter / sympathizer?
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aaronpk bret: i think he was referencing when I suggested linking to his twitter or github profile to sign in to the wiki
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bret totally
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KartikPrabhu bret: i think wolftune is referring to things where we use silos for the indieweb for instance Twitter/Github for Indieauth, or POSSE and bridgy
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bret well partially, not sure how to have it manafest personally
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wolftune sure
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snarfed KartikPrabhu, bret, wolftune: definitely! we don't mind using the silos as infrastructure for hard parts they do well. e.g. friend graphs, pubsub, etc.
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rascul i'm not gonna use facebook but i might posse to twitter eventually
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wolftune bret: ok, seriously then: our project is up your alley AND we've been actively helping new folks learning Yesod and Haskell (I'm one of the learners as I'm coming from a non-coding background)
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snarfed as well as distribution to the majority of users who aren't yet indiewebified
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rascul that's a big might there for me
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wolftune So the site is: https://snowdrift.coop/
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KartikPrabhu in an ideal world everyone would have an indiewebsite which are interoperable, but until then we have to work with existing silos and write code to talk to them through POSSE and bridgy
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bret im personally trying to build tools that make those things secondary to my own choice (which happen to be what I build myself) at this point
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wolftune and we're over at #snowdrift
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wolftune it's *completely* independent from silos and such and 100% Free/Open
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mattl wolftune: are you still based in Rhode Island?
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bret i like that but I also worry that it can be too isolating
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wolftune bret: yes, but it's the starting point from which to go forward
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wolftune we're ok with isolation for now as we haven't launched or promoted yet as it isn't operating yet
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bret we need to build lots of bridgest that meet at different points
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wolftune we're getting there
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wolftune we WANT to build bridges, but we want the strongest foundation on one site to build from
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wolftune mattl: hi, and no, I'm from Michigan actually but moved out to Oregon last summer
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bret woo! portland?
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mattl wolftune: aha... i'm thinking of cashmusic i guess.
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wolftune bret: well Oregon City, 15 miles south
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bret ah cool!
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bret know some internetians who live out there
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wolftune mattl: oh yeah, that's an interesting project
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wolftune my cofounder lives in Oakland, CA
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mattl oh nice.
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mattl i've never been to oakland but i'm in SF a lot.
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bret wolftune: if silo integration isn't part of your interest, there have been a few projects and efforts to create cross website/implementation communication via webmention and microformats 2 as well as identity stuff like indieauth and recently micropub allowing posting clients to work across implementations
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wolftune bret: interesting
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wolftune yeah, I'm still learning about all this
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wolftune I care about the privacy issues with the internet these days
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bret the parts we have to agree on are pretty minimal and rock solid... like http POST requests ;)
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bret microformat 2 vocab aslo, but all that is a few html class names
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bret literally
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rascul it might be nifty if there was an indieweb silo type thing
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rascul i dunno if silo is the term for what i'm looking for though
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bret rascul: news.indiewebcamp.com?
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rascul ooo yeah maybe like that
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aaronpk what is an aggregator?
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aaronpk really?
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rascul there is no aggregator page!
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aaronpk how?
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bret wolftune: check out http://indiewebcamp.com/antipattern for some idea of general philosophy
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rascul the wiki wants me to create /aggregator
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wolftune bret: thanks
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bret also http://indiewebcamp.com/principles
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rascul looks like only a few people sending stuff to news.indiewebcamp.com maybe the word needs to be spread some more
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bret in terms of examples, check out community member personal websites mainly
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wolftune sure
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wolftune so, I sense things are a mix
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bret a complete mix
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bret how it should be :)
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wolftune it's interesting and certainly people come to different ways of making sense of our networked world…
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aaronpk rascul: likely there needs to be more incentive to put things there
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rascul yeah maybe
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aaronpk like if there was even IRC notifications that something had been submitted there :)
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aaronpk still don't know why I haven't done that...
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rascul looks at Loqi
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wolftune aaronpk: should the rel=me thing be used for a public link that other people might use to e-mail me? or should I keep it hidden for some reason?
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bret wolftune: if you get a chance, add yourself to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people
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wolftune will do, after I figure out log-in
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wolftune :P
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bret ;)
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aaronpk wolftune: if you already have a public link you can just add it to that. otherwise it's fine to put it on a hidden link if you don't want it visible
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wolftune aaronpk: k thanks
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bret you can also use that as a way to find peoples projects if you are talking to them in irc
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wolftune aaronpk: oh interesting, is there any reason necessarily to use the SAME e-mail as the rel=me for Persona??
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bret reading https://snowdrift.coop/p/snowdrift/w/intro
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wolftune because I could use a different Persona-connected e-mail, that wouldn't work, right?
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aaronpk in the case of email login, it's not doing bidirectional verification, just one-way
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wolftune aaronpk: so, it's like anyone could log-in to IndieWebCamp with my domain just because there's a rel=me link?
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aaronpk if you can convince me to add your email address with a rel=me link on my site then yes you can sign in as me
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wolftune aaronpk: that's not what I mean. I mean, I assume that Persona needs to tell IndieWebCamp that the logged in e-mail matches the thing from the site, right?
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bret so could I put a rel me into a comment on a poorly coded site, and log in as them?
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bret ok bbl
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wolftune I'm in!
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wolftune.com edited /2014/Guest_List (+209) "Added myself (Aaron Wolf)" (view diff)
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Loqi [mention] http://cweiske.de/tagebuch/indieauth-openid.htm linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] http://cweiske.de/tagebuch/indieauth-openid.htm linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/IndieAuth (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] http://cweiske.de/tagebuch/indieauth-openid.htm linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/h-feed (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] http://cweiske.de/tagebuch/indieauth-openid.htm linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/link-preview (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] http://cweiske.de/tagebuch/indieauth-openid.htm linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/IndieAuth#OpenID_support (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] http://cweiske.de/tagebuch/indieauth-openid.htm linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/login-brainstorming (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] http://cweiske.de/tagebuch/indieauth-openid.htm linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/authorization-endpoint (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] http://cweiske.de/tagebuch/indieauth-openid.htm linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/auth-brainstorming (webmention)
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aaronpk bret: yes
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wolftune.com edited /IRC_People (+57) "added myself to IRC list" (view diff)
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aaronpk wolftune: we don't check for a link back from your email to your website, so any email you link to with rel=me from your home page can be used to sign in
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aaronpk same with phone numbers
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wolftune aaronpk: that's fine, I just assumed it would complain if I then signed in with a different e-mail
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rascul wolftune now you gotta make your user page! and put a dfn in it so you get nifty stuff like this
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wolftune I didn't check
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rascul whois rascul
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Loqi Ray Schulz is a slacker who likes to make things http://indiewebcamp.com/User:Rascul.io
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wolftune I have to go… back later
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rascul ok
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kylewm bret: checkmention tries to do that hack specifically, tries to add a comment with a rel-me to Jony Ives'
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@planet_php IndieAuth-OpenID proxy: The IndieWeb movement is much about "code before talk", and on this way whee... http://cweiske.de/tagebuch/indieauth-openid.htm?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=laconi (twitter.com/_/status/476849283849666560)
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@planetphp IndieAuth-OpenID proxy - Christian Weiske http://cweiske.de/tagebuch/indieauth-openid.htm (twitter.com/_/status/476850120634683392)
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aaronpk bret: do you know if barnaby's h-feed to atom converter would work with my tag pages? cause then I could add my php tag to planet php! http://planet-php.net/submit/
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GWG Heidy ho, campers.
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@php_by IndieAuth-OpenID proxy - Christian Weiske: The IndieWeb movement is much about "code before talk", a... http://cweiske.de/tagebuch/indieauth-openid.htm (twitter.com/_/status/476851474148753408)
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GWG What's going on?
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kylewm GWG, we've gone from 1 Aaron to 3 in one day
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GWG aaronpk has been reproducing asexually?
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aaronpk crazy idea... or maybe not so crazy.
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GWG You are going to need more whiteboards
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aaronpk maybe I should run another instance of indieauth.com at auth.indiewebcamp.com just to point out that a web service delegating logins to indieauth.com does not make indieauth a centralized protocol
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kylewm does that criticism come up much? (that indieauth is centralized?)
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aaronpk to people who don't look into it very much yes
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aaronpk at first glance it looks like everything has to go through indieauth.com
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bret the counter argument to that criticism should be "Is it?"
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aaronpk lol
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aaronpk "look closely"
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@php_egypt IndieAuth-OpenID proxy http://cweiske.de/tagebuch/indieauth-openid.htm (twitter.com/_/status/476853763970727936)
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bret kylewm: shweet, need to play with that
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@wordpressites IndieAuth-OpenID proxy - Christian Weiske http://cweiske.de/tagebuch/indieauth-openid.htm (twitter.com/_/status/476853939120267264)
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aaronpk I like the planet-php.net submit page: http://planet-php.net/submit/
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@sarajweb IndieAuth-OpenID proxy - Christian Weiske http://cweiske.de/tagebuch/indieauth-openid.htm (twitter.com/_/status/476853975531405312)
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aaronpk "And please provide a link to an RSS/Atom feed for just your PHP category, Planet PHP readers usually don't want to read about your cat"
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bret aaronpk: can indieauth use an openID provider as an auth provider?
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aaronpk bret: it used to but it was super unstable and error prone so I disabled it. cweiske just made a proxy that lets you do that tho
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bret lol, i like
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bret i like cweiske's post*
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aaronpk lots of good links!
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bret reinvention, or making wheels better!?
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bret it could also be seen as a simplification, microformats instead of libravatar, atom feeds and ombed
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bret 3 separete things, all consolidated into a single format
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aaronpk sounds like good material for a short blog post :)
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bret is rel=me a microformat?
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tantek Exactly, simplification.
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tantek It is
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tantek A very small one :)
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bret are all rel= values microformats?
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tantek Sort of? Got blurred as soon as HTML5 decided to officially use the microformats rel registry.
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bret gah, wish my micropub endpoint was working with quill
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aaronpk bret: why is it not?
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bret lol frantic hacking to cut the scope of the days work to just get ownyourgram working
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aaronpk oh right like only handling multipart posts?
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bret a lot of abstractions were cut and overlapped that day
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bret need to clean it all up
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bret and make it handle ALL forms and generalize data handling
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tantek Bret what was the context of your 3 separate things?
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@sarfraznawaz New #PHP Post: IndieAuth-OpenID proxy http://cweiske.de/tagebuch/indieauth-openid.htm (twitter.com/_/status/476857459710382080)
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bret tantek: scratch that 4 separate things: http://cweiske.de/tagebuch/indieauth-openid.htm
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bret its actually a good comparison
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@paviles IndieAuth-OpenID proxy: The IndieWeb movement is much about "code before talk", and on this way whee... http://cweiske.de/tagebuch/indieauth-openid.htm?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=dev+|+paviles.net&utm_term=dev (twitter.com/_/status/476857650408218624)
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tantek Hmm not loading for me
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bret http://cweiske.de/tagebuch/indieauth-openid.htm
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tantek Oops
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tantek HTTP ERROR: 504
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tantek HTTP ERROR: 504
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aaronpk jeez I wish there was a good tool that let you preview an RSS/Atom feed...
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tantek HTTP ERROR: 504
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tantek HTTP ERROR: 504
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aaronpk if only we had some way to render the feed as html...
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bret aaronpk i know right!?
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tantek HTTP ERROR: 504
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tantek Gateway Timeout
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aaronpk tantek is erroring out, lol
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tantek RequestURI=http://cweiske.de/tagebuch/indieauth-openid.htm
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bret aaronpk: try an xml prettifyer
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tantek No that's from cweiske's server
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bret tantek: sans links: https://gist.github.com/bcomnes/a5be8caea3dc0771bfc1
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@yochum IndieAuth-OpenID proxy - Christian Weiske http://cweiske.de/tagebuch/indieauth-openid.htm?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed #php #dev (twitter.com/_/status/476858677865881601)
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@binmau RT @yochum: IndieAuth-OpenID proxy - Christian Weiske http://cweiske.de/tagebuch/indieauth-openid.htm?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed #php #dev (twitter.com/_/status/476858822095822848)
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tantek Bret ah I see
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tantek Yes it makes the case quite well that we've simplified the previous "stack" / mishmash of DNS extension, XML, and JSON
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bret writing a simple reply
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tantek Great! what you said about simplification rather than reinvention.
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bret what was the DNS extension?
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tantek Libravatar
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bret clears throat
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bret are you kidding?
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tantek Haha
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tantek Nope
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bret i assumed to was like a .well-known extension
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KevinMarks he bridged indieauth to openID? but indieauth is my OpenID provider. loop time?
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@dcmsolusi RT @yochum: IndieAuth-OpenID proxy - Christian Weiske http://cweiske.de/tagebuch/indieauth-openid.htm?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed #php #dev (twitter.com/_/status/476860797155430401)
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bret aaronpk how hard would it be to run my own indieauth server on a free paas?
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aaronpk KevinMarks: yep getting dangerously close to loop territory
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aaronpk bret: i haven't ever tried running it on heroku but in theory you can
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bret running my own authentication server sounds dangerously unexciting
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aaronpk yeah
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aaronpk pretty much
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snarfed bret++ perfect description
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Loqi bret has 15 karma
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snarfed like the famous description of war. "long periods of boredom, punctuated by moments of sheer terror"
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bret XD
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bret snarfed++
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Loqi snarfed has 29 karma
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bret what were the key ingredients to openid? like how indieauth is rel=me and oauth
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aaronpk uh... crypto?
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rascul i wonder if it would be worth signing my posts and making a signed copy of it available
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aaronpk sure! would be interesting to see if anybody does anything with it
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rascul i've been pondering that for today and yesterday
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bret yeah would be neat to see it if you want to do it
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rascul somthing to do later on
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aaronpk it always is "later on" heh
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aaronpk never seems to be a high enough priority for anyone to actually start
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bret im not edward snowden, and publishing private things is a bad way to keep them private
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bret better to wisper into someone ear
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bret privacy needs a bittorrent
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bret something that is unstopable and deeply empowering and difficult to screw up
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bret even if there are only a few tools available
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bret it seems like the tooling is the hardest part
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bret aaronpk: also re-tag page
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bret im not sure?
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bret the title needs to be fixed
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aaronpk oh yeah I don't have a proper h-feed, just a bunch of h-entries
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bret it would probrably work, how does the feed look in the feed validator?
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KevinMarks plays with docker
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aaronpk not bad http://validator.w3.org/feed/check.cgi?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwaterpigs.co.uk%2Fservices%2Fmicroformats-to-atom%2F%3Furl%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Faaronparecki.com%252Ftag%252Fphp
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aaronpk wow so escaping
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kylewm KevinMarks, curious to hear your experience with it. i've been wondering if it would make my stuff more or less complicated
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bret aaronpk: is micropub just atompub with microformat vocab and without xmlrpc?
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aaronpk oh yeah add that to the list of wheels
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bret i am
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bret aaronpk: do you know the vocab that atompub used?
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aaronpk atompub does a little more though cause it also include a way to retrieve records
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bret whut
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aaronpk which we might need in micropub soon
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bret oh for editing?
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KevinMarks "you're replacing a square, triangular and pentagonal wheel with a set of round ones"
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aaronpk yeah
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bret KevinMarks++
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Loqi KevinMarks has 36 karma
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bret lol
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aaronpk KevinMarks++
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Loqi KevinMarks has 37 karma
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KevinMarks atompub is CRUD
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KevinMarks in both senses of the word
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bret Its even funnier to read that in your head with KevinMarks's voice
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aaronpk lol
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bret aaronpk: do we even need... yes source formatting
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bret nm
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KevinMarks I can't really hear my own voice in my head
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bret KevinMarks: its called your thought process ;)
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aaronpk good point, I can't really picture what my voice sounds like
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bret you sound like your thoughts
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bret i think?
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aaronpk sometimes i think in german if i try really hard
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bret at least i imagine others thinking like how they speak
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bret thats why its importaint to speak gooder