#indiewebcamp 2014-06-12

2014-06-12 UTC
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bret
could webmention be made more consistent with microformat vocab?
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aaronpk
bret: for what purpose?
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aaronpk
the nice thing about webmention is that it's so simple and just a notification, doesn't actually contain any data on its own
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bret
like should soruce/target be in uF? or some other term from uF be used instead?
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bret
for consistency
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bret
source/target is pretty damn simple
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bret
kylewm: i broke your website
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kylewm
bret, and I yours...
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kylewm
curious, how'd you see the webmention so fast?
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bret
refreshed on accident
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bret
still fixing some links
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kylewm
my broken avatar is a little bit ironic given the post...
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bret
fuck
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Loqi
hehe
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GWG
is brainstorming
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bret
aaronpk: is webmention.io supposed to return a relative ulr for the photo?
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bret
kylewm: fixed your photo, now all of bridgy's broke
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snarfed
ruh roh…?
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kylewm
bret, oh no what's going on with brid.gy?
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bret
snarfed i think its webmention.io
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bret
sometimes it returns a relative url other times it returns a full url
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bret
for the photo
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snarfed
on a related note, bret, bridgy's currently trying to send you a home page webmention :P
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snarfed
oh interesting, actually the failure isn't your fault. investigating
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bret
i was about to say!
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bret
whoa its all kinds of confused: http://bret.io/2014/06/08/billion-dollar/
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bret
snarfed: sorry to unearth an edgecase
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snarfed
no need to apologize. thanks for finding bugs!
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kylewm
snarfed, the issue is there is a missing u-mention (i think that's what you called it) link to bret.io?
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snarfed
kylewm: yeah, looked like it. i haven't dug much yet
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acegiak
morning, all
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wolftune
acegiak: evenin here
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GWG
Hi, acegiak
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wolftune
bret: heh k
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wolftune
interesting
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GWG
acegiak: By the way, I've had clarity
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GWG
I figured out how to solve the dilemma about the Wordpress embed code
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acegiak
ooh! what did you come up with?
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GWG
acegiak: Well, I wanted to use the Wordpress embed handler for displaying certain links. However, there were several comments that made me think that might not be the ideal option for everyone.
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aaronpk
shoot is webmention.io doing something wrong?
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GWG
acegiak: But, it goes back to what I would call the pfefferle solution...
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GWG
acegiak: Action/filter hooks
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GWG
It is already in some of the functions.
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GWG
Basically, a filter hook
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bret
aaronpk, check some of the json records for my site
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bret
bridgy vs regular webmentions from a site
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aaronpk
hm yeah it's not resolving relative URLs
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kylewm
!tell snarfed hey does this exception mean anything to you? having some trouble figuring out how to add things to a task queue http://goo.gl/xTJcSm
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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gRegor`
So I'm not really sure my girlfriend qualifies as an apprentice, but if IWC west isn't full is it OK if she sits in on some of it?
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aaronpk
gRegor`: are you willing to help her set up a website for herself during IWC?
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gRegor`
Actually, she has a domain. Just doesn't use it much. It links off to a silo blog on wordpress.com
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gRegor`
I suppose I could, sure. We've talked about getting her set up with a better CMS system.
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gRegor`
I just hadn't thought maybe that would happen at IWC. :)
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GWG
acegiak: What is the $verbs variable for?
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aaronpk
it's best when an apprentice can demo something they got working on their own site by the end, or show that they have even just a simple profile page set up on a domain that didn't exist before
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aaronpk
i cheated
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aaronpk
it makes an http call to pin13.net/mf2
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aaronpk
cause the ruby mf2 parser didn't exist
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bret
is the ruby one working now?
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aaronpk
it is. i think i can replace it now
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GWG
I'm trying to understand h-cite.
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GWG
kylewm: I have a question for you
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kylewm
GWG: what's up?
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GWG
I'm looking at your site
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GWG
So, you share links with a citation and mark them up as a repost?
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Loqi
snarfed: kylewm left you a message 36 minutes ago: hey does this exception mean anything to you? having some trouble figuring out how to add things to a task queue http://goo.gl/xTJcSm
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acegiak
GWG: $verbs is leftover from old code
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acegiak
I thought I'd removed all occurences
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GWG
acegiak: Figured. It is just the declaration, not the usage.
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GWG
acegiak: Right now, I'm looking at u- vs p-
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snarfed
kylewm: aha, yeah. have you seen the util.add_*_task methods?
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acegiak
GWG: yeah it's tricky
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GWG
acegiak: You don't mark up the URL on your site, you mark up the entire citation
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acegiak
the citation has an anchor in it marked up as u-url
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kylewm
GWG, yeah reposts show up as bare links if the target doesn't have microformats
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snarfed
kylewm: ahh. the queues are defined in queue.yaml
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GWG
kylewm: That explains it
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GWG
I'm looking at how people mark things up
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snarfed
kylewm: do we want a new queue though? or just piggyback on the poll task?
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kylewm
snarfed: I wasn't sure actually, I thought piggybacking on the poll task meant using the poll task to enqueue a refetch task, but actually just doing it all inside polling would be nice
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snarfed
yeah i'm fine with that
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snarfed
kylewm: remind me, we were thinking every 2h or so?
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kylewm
I don't think we ever decided. 2h sounds right to me
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snarfed
me too
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tantek
wow lots of activity today!
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GWG
tantek: Can I pick your brain?
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tantek
no :)
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GWG
Oh, well.
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gRegor`
Try #zombiechat ;)
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tantek
but you may ask specific questions :)
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GWG
tantek: The concept is that there is a URL of some sort...that the h-entry refers to. I'm calling it a 'response URL' for variable sake, as it is something you are responding to. Let's say you are liking that URL. Under what circumstances would you mark the container around it with p-like vs just the URL with u-like-of?
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gregorlove.com
edited /User:Gregorlove.com (+139) "/* Introduction */"
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cweiske
tantek, I checked my logs and did not find any 504 errors. are you sure they were from my server?
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tantek
cweiske - did you see the error message?
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tantek
maybe it was from a proxy?
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cweiske
I saw that
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tantek
the error message cited your site
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tantek
and it was minutes before that IRC entry - in case that helps look it up in the logs
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cweiske
I would think it was a proxy between you any my server
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cweiske
I did not find any 504s in my logs
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tantek
then again, if a proxy just timed out with your server taking too long, then you wouldn't see it as an error on your server
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cweiske
bret, I wonder why I did not get any webmentions from http://bret.io/2014/06/11/openid-for-indieauth/
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tantek
good to know it wasn't an error on your site!
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KartikPrabhu
GWG: if there is just a url you'd mark it up as "u-like-of". If you are also citing something from there or have other content from that url you'd have a < div class="p-like-of h-cite"> <a href="url fo the original" class="u-url"></a> other content </div>
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cweiske
bret, can you check your logs?
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tantek
!tell bret have you implemented reposts with POSSEing native retweets on Twitter?
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek
GWG p-like and u-like-of are totally different!
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GWG
tantek: The example in the wiki is confusing me
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GWG
p-like seems to only be for incoming.
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GWG
u-like-of is supposed to be for outgoing
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tantek
right
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KartikPrabhu
oh yeah sorry my bad. I thought you were asking u-like-of vs p-like-of
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GWG
Is there a p-like-of?
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tantek
yes you could use that
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GWG
Does anyone?
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tantek
not that I know of - you could check the IndieWeb Examples for /like
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gRegor`
I didn't realize "bloggers" was a separate category from creator/apprentice. Is that newer?
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GWG
Okay. That being settled, now I have to figure out h-cite.
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gRegor`
http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/Guest_List links to a #Bloggers subheading, but one doesn't exist.
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kylewm
GWG, you know that p-like-of and u-like-of represent the same property right?
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kylewm
just different ways of parsing it
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tantek
exactly
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tantek
gRegor`: yes
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gRegor`
So I'm thinking my girlfriend could sign up as a blogger, since that description fits.
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GWG
kylewm: Yes. I just was trying to see if anyone marked up things as p-like-of
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tantek
gRegor`: yes! if she blogs about it and sends a pingback to the Guest_List then it will show up here and we can add her
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GWG
I think when I explained my issue, I forgot the of
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gRegor`
Currently the blog is a wordpress.com blog. Not sure if they send pingbacks.
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GWG
I'm trying to write a set of universal functions I can use to write the various specific types
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GWG
So, I'm trying to build a foundation here
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gRegor`
She has a domain, though, which links off to the wordpress.com blog and other profiles, so I could get her set up to log in to the wiki pretty easily
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GWG
That is hard
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gRegor`
Make that blogspot, actually.
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tantek
gRegor`: even better then - get her setup with indieauth!
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snarfed
gRegor`: she can sign the blog up for bridgy, and it will send webmentions for her posts
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snarfed
but agreed, go for indieauth
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tantek
exactly, get her up there as a full-fledged creator!
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gRegor`
Sweet
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gRegor`
I still need to gauge her interest. :) She kinda falls in the "design" aspect of creator. She knows photoshop well and set up the design of her landing page, but otherwise isn't much of a web geek.
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gRegor`
I asked originally because it was an excuse to spend more time together, since it's a long-distance relationship. but even better if I can get her hooked on indieweb. ;)
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gRegor`
Her lack of a decent laptop might be a problem.
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GWG
gRegor`: Should we ask?
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gRegor`
Anyway, I'll figure this all out in the coming days. Booked the room tonight, so I'm getting excited for IWC
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gRegor`
Ask what, GWG?
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GWG
gRegor`: How lacking in decency her laptop is?
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gRegor`
Very. I'd go with "very." :) Rather old netbook, dying keyboard.
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gRegor`
Adequate for basic surfing, but not for Photoshop
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GWG
gRegor`: I brought a Chromebook to Indiewebcamp NYC
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gRegor`
Can we borrow it? ;)
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gRegor`
jk
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GWG
gRegor`: $99.99
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gRegor`
Dang
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gRegor`
Wait, that was the price new, or your price for us to borrow it? :)
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GWG
Up to $119...but they now throw in a new sleeve
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GWG
Refurbed
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GWG
This may be something to take to #indiechat
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gRegor`
Ah. Good to know. I might point her to that.
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gRegor`
Probably. I'm actually heading to bed though.
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GWG
acegiak: Working on the logic now for display. Three fields, url, title, and quote. If !url, then use title/quote, If !title, use post_title.
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acegiak
GWG: having trouble picturing it. I'll have to look when you push
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GWG
acegiak: Modularity...
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GWG
acegiak: I could push it before it does anything.
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acegiak
GWG: I'm not gonna be doing much today anyway so don't rush things
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GWG
acegiak: I'm heading to bed in a few. Remember, it is 1AM here
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acegiak
push if you like and I'll take a look in a few hours
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GWG
Well, let me see how far I get...
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GWG
acegiak: Pushed the basic logic piece.
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acegiak
GWG: coolios. I'll have a look soon
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acegiak
GWG: looks good.
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upon2020.com
edited /2014/Guest_List (+332) "added Johannes Ernst"
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@Johannes_Ernst
Registered for #indiewebcamp two-and-a-half weeks from now. Yeah!! http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/Guest_List http://upon2020.com/banter/?p=282
(twtr.io/nKhckYVfuQ)
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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andicascadesf
Hey guys
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andicascadesf
I want to continue to attend blog writing hours
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andicascadesf
but my scheduling conflicts have been less predictable lately.
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andicascadesf
Can we meet any other times for the blogging hour?
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@codizy_software
#PHP IndieAuth-OpenID proxy - Christian Weiske - The IndieWeb movement is much about "code before talk", and on... http://cweiske.de/tagebuch/indieauth-openid.htm
(twtr.io/nKnbS8Ehux)
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cweiske
bret, regarding "Microformats (rel=me auth) instead of OpenID" - this is not true. during my indieauth server implementation, I did nothing with microformats
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cweiske
indieauth.com simply happens to rely on rel=me for service discovery, but the indieauth protocol in the background is agnostic to that
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cweiske
also "Webmention (HTTP) instead of Pingback (XMLRPC)" is kinda wrong, because pingback is also http
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cweiske
it's just www-form-urlencode vs. xml
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aaronpk
from-encoded + https vs xml + crypto
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cweiske
pingback does not do any crypto
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cweiske
webmention does not require https
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cweiske
you can run pingback over https, too
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cweiske
it's agnostic to the layer
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cweiske
the only difference between webmention and pingback is the serialization of the actual data
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aaronpk
i was referencing indieauth vs openid
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aaronpk
nvm ignore me, I just got back from karaoke and should not be online right now :)
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aaronpk
goodnight!
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Loqi
buenas noches
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KartikPrabhu
cweiske: a more detailed "critique" of the indieweb approach wrt previous approaches speaking to protocol agnostic way of doing things would be quite useful (specially for people who only knows the ins/outs of one approach, like me)
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cweiske
does someone know how bret.io sends out linkbacks/webmentions?
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pfefferle
cweiske I think he uses the github webhooks
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cweiske
calling his custom service that does the pinging?
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cweiske
I'm interested in this code because I did not receive any linkbacks
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pfefferle
hmmm, didn’t find anything…
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cweiske.de
edited /login-brainstorming (+613) "/* The Redirect URI */ redirect uri verification"
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cweiske.de
edited /login-brainstorming (+238) "/* Redirect URI verification */"
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@brennannovak
@briansuda time to reboot to an #IndieWeb ? :D
(twtr.io/nL9wT1jrcb)
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tantek
good morning #indiewebcamp!
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bnvk
good mornin' tantek
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petermolnar
good 15:00 tantek
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petermolnar
( timezones, ugh )
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bnvk
petermolnar: are you in NL?
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petermolnar
( I am sometimes in the Netherlands though )
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barnabywalters
morning tantek, bnvk, petermolnar
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barnabywalters
petermolnar: work on UGT! it makes IRC much easier ;) http://www.total-knowledge.com/~ilya/mips/ugt.html
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petermolnar
OK, I did not know about this, but it makes sense :)
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petermolnar
although I was looking for a swatch internet time wrist watch, without success so far
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petermolnar
when they came up with it ~15 years ago, no one was ready for it
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luxagraf
good morning (ugt)
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tantek
petermolnar: I have a couple of those (Swatch BEAT watches) that need new batteries ;)
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barnabywalters
!tell aaronpk http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/new now has h-x-app/h-product markup and nascent Taproot logo. looking forward to seeing these used in authorization UI!
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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waterpigs.co.uk
edited /Taproot (+41) "added taproot logo"
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jonnybarnes
hey barnabywalters, you latest note has broked twitter's t.co service: https://twitter.com/BarnabyWalters/status/477105767279906816
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Loqi
[@BarnabyWalters] #336699becca banner for @meyerweb and family, and everyone else who’s lost a child.
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jonnybarnes
well, the way twitter displays them anway
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barnabywalters
jonnybarnes: wat
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barnabywalters
weird! I haven’t changed anything recently
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jonnybarnes
that t.co link presumably resolves to your waterpigs.co.uk url
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barnabywalters
must be a change on twitter’s side
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barnabywalters
yeah, it resolves correctly
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jonnybarnes
its just wierd because Twitter has obviously seen its a URL and then shortened it
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barnabywalters
yep, pretty sure it’s Twitter’s problem, whatever it is. hopefully just a transient bug and not a new change to how they auto-link things
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barnabywalters
!tell cweiske waterpigs.co.uk’s client_id should be a proper URL now!
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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waterpigs.co.uk
edited /auth-brainstorming (+286) "/* Authorization */ clarified details about client_id, h-product and h-x-app, app identification"
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waterpigs.co.uk
edited /micropub (+204) "/* Clients */ added info about Taproot h-x-app h-product markup"
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waterpigs.co.uk
created /h-product (+512) "stubbed page about h-product"
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waterpigs.co.uk
created /h-x-app (+745) "stubbed page with description, links, example"
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barnabywalters
what is h-x-app?
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Loqi
who, me?
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GWG
Another day, another plan
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aaronparecki.com
edited /h-x-app (+46) "formatting"
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barnabywalters
aaronpk: y u no like curly quotes? :)
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GWG
pfefferle, you available?
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pfefferle
GWG yes
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GWG
Am I correct for the webmentions plugin that if the URL a post mentions is not in the_content, I'd have to fire the function to send it separately?
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barnabywalters
this is quite a nice post about the “storing data in the network” approach most indieauth implementations are taking: http://lucumr.pocoo.org/2013/11/17/my-favorite-database/
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aaronpk
nice! yeah self-encoded tokens are awesome
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Loqi
aaronpk: barnabywalters left you a message 1 hour, 11 minutes ago: http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/new now has h-x-app/h-product markup and nascent Taproot logo. looking forward to seeing these used in authorization UI!
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barnabywalters
the approach he talks about isn’t *exactly* what we’re doing, but much the same idea
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GWG
pfefferle, still working on something similar to your reply context plugin and wanted to make sure that I added this step
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aaronpk
it pretty much is
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aaronpk
just not exactly the same format as the JWT spec
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Jeena
hm somehow I am not getting any webmentions from brid.gy anymore
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Jeena
oh a exception MissingSchema: Invalid URL u'/webmentions': No schema supplied. Perhaps you meant http:///webmentions?
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Jeena
so this is not ok? Link: </webmentions>
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Jeena
rel="webmention"
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kylewm
Jeena, interesting. i will look and see if Bridgy handles relative links in the http header
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kylewm
I'll follow up there
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Jeena
I am a edge case! :D
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tantek
Jeena - relative URLs in HTTP headers is a new thing
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Jeena
a new thing like never been done before or we just started doing it?
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barnabywalters
IIRC it’s one of the new things in the update to HTTP 1.1
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tantek
just started being supported by some servers
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Jeena
I had it always with the domain but just a week ago or something I found out that my own code doesn't work for some other website which only had /webmentions so I changed it to be able to test it. Then I forgot to change it back.
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Jeena
I see
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barnabywalters
PSA: FSCONS put out a call for proposals, apparently they can also sponsor some travel costs: https://fscons.org/2014/cfp/
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GWG
Is there such a thing as a like-context?
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Jeena
I always thought the Link header is just the same as <link> in the HTML, but perhaps it is not.
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kylewm
GWG: I'd say that acegiak posts like-contexts, but they are usually/always "like and reposted"
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JonathanNeal
Have we opened Pandora’s Box? Is individual privacy going to be a thing of the past?
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GWG
kylewm: I just don't want to have to set up significantly different displays for like vs reply and such
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barnabywalters
GWG: if they’re not displayed differently, how are they different?
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bret
!tell cweiske my webmention support is pretty poor right now, XD I have to deal with it manually
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GWG
barnabywalters: They aren't. That was more the point.
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Loqi
bret: tantek left you a message 12 hours, 33 minutes ago: have you implemented reposts with POSSEing native retweets on Twitter?
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Loqi
bret: tantek left you a message 11 hours, 19 minutes ago: good post! http://bret.io/2014/06/11/openid-for-indieauth/
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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barnabywalters
GWG: but likes, replies and reposts are very different
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barnabywalters
both in intent, creation UI and typical display
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barnabywalters
as well as who they’re broadcast to
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bret
thanks tantek :) No I do all my tweet posseing manually.... but I layed the groundwork for all sorts of neato automation this past weekend
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tantek
bret - oh neat!
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GWG
barnabywalters: The code I'm writing inserts the URL being responded to(hence referred to as the response URL) display above the content. A like would effectively not have anything in the content box, it would only have the display of the external URL marked up appropriately
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GWG
barnabywalters: That would be consistent, from what I understand.
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bret
tantek: i PESO instagram automatically
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tantek
bret, do you publish reposts on your own domain at all? or just do native retweets?
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bret
tantek: kinda been mixing a process of both
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bret
somtimes I tweet things that I dont nessisary need to keep on my own site
#
bret
i just wanna say it and see it disapear mostly
#
bret
ohh i see what you are asking, my retweets on twitter?
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GWG
barnabywalters: I'm trying to get the logic working correctly. So far, we've added in the fields for a response url, title, and citation. And I'm working on the display logic...as all three of those fields are optional
#
bret
i have some loosy goosy PESETAS to back up my twitter activity to pinboard
#
bret
so at least Im taking data
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bret
tantek: definately recomend adding ownyourgram support, so much fun :)
#
tantek
bret, next on my itch list is implementing reposts with POSSE retweets
#
tantek
so I can own my reposts :)
#
tantek
(which sounds odd but hey)
#
tantek
(I guess own my activity of reposting as part of my stream)
#
GWG
tantek: How can you own someone else's content?
#
tantek
GWG - you can't. You can just own the *action* of reposting.
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tantek
or "activity" as some say
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GWG
tantek: This brings me to mind to what I was plotting the other day
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luxagraf
barnabywalters: is the code that handles your in-reply-to notes public?
#
GWG
tantek: I wanted to optionally embed tweets using Twitter's embed code where the reply was to a a Tweet. Someone pointed out that wouldn't be owning them.
#
barnabywalters
luxagraf: no, which part in particular? the part which stores the notes? the UI? the part which fetches reply contexts? or sends webmentions?
#
luxagraf
barnabywalters: the part that fetches reply contexts
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tantek
Twitter's embed code still includdes an inline <blockquote> of the content
#
Jeena
is it possible to let bridgy try to send older likes and comments from facebook? I missed that this was not working and now quite a lot of them have not been pushed, or will it retry automagically after some time even for one week old ones?
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tantek
which is what is displayed if the author deletes the tweet later
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luxagraf
barnabywalters: i worked something up that handles twitter, but wanted to see what it might take to abstract it more
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barnabywalters
luxagraf: the code I’m using is a less polished version of https://github.com/indieweb/php-comments
#
GWG
tantek: What if Twitter went out of business?
#
bret
!tell cweiske irony asside, i hope the post didnt come across as agressive, im happy to see openid interoperating with indieauth :)
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
tantek
GWG then you'd see the inline <blockquote> content
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barnabywalters
which additionally runs HTMLPurifier over the results
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snarfed
Jeena: not right now, sorry. it retries for three days, but not longer
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snarfed
i think there's a feature request in github. looking
#
snarfed
Jeena: https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/183 . feel free to vote or send a PR!
#
GWG
tantek: So, as long as I cache the embed code? Because I was using the built-in Wordpress embed handler. I think they've been debating cache duration
#
tantek
I have no idea what the built-in Wordpress embed handler does
#
barnabywalters
luxagraf: the reason aaronpk and I made https://github.com/indieweb/php-mf2-shim is so that all you have to do is support microformats, and you get twitter support for free
#
luxagraf
barnabywalters: okay, that comment code helps, thanks.
#
tantek
I am only talking about what you copy and paste from the "Embed Tweet" box on Twitter
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barnabywalters
which reminds me, I need to make sure php-mf2-shim works with the new timeline layout
#
bret
!tell cweiske the rel=me microformat is the key ingredient for setting up indieauth. I think maybe I misunderstood exactly what you did, but its interesting to see how indieauth can route around the rel me auth all toegether
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
tantek
GWG who knows what randomness the WP plugin does. You'd have to ask it.
#
GWG
tantek: I wasn't really asking that though. It uses oembed, so it would be the same code.
#
Jeena
ok thanks snarfed
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tantek
GWG - nope, not same code
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tantek
oembed is vulnerable to exactly the problem of Twitter shutting down
#
tantek
note that Twitter's own copy/paste "Tweet Embed" code DOES NOT use Oembed
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GWG
tantek: Oh, good to know. I was passing it off because it will get me to feature complete faster.
#
tantek
s/Oembed/Oembed
#
Loqi
tantek meant to say: note that Twitter's own copy/paste "Tweet Embed" code DOES NOT use Oembed
#
snarfed
(same as reply/repost contexts)
#
snarfed
er, sorry, those are both actually replies, but i do the same thing for likes
#
GWG
snarfed: SO, you are embedding
#
tantek
snarfed, care to start /like-context with "IndieWeb Examples" and those examples?
#
snarfed
tantek: i'll add them to /reply-context since they're exactly the same
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GWG
snarfed: I feel better. You use Wordpress, so I'd imagine you know about their Embed features. I wanted to use that
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luxagraf
barnabywalters: hmm, wonder if any of the python people have ported php-mf2-shim
#
tantek
snarfed - I'm not sure they're the same
#
tantek
given that GWG was asking about them separately
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snarfed
tantek: yeah, i wasn't clear enough. there may be a difference, but i can't see it yet, and i don't differentiate at all on my own site
#
GWG
tantek: The difference is minimal in my opinion
#
tantek
snarfed - I'm going to assert that there *IS* a difference simply by how popular silos present each
#
tantek
GWG - strongly disagree
#
tantek
if you look at FB for example
#
bret
tantek, is the plan to backfeed retweets to your own site? if so it sounds like a job for a micropub client
#
tantek
reply, repost, like all have VERY different presentation
#
tantek
bret no. the plan is to use my site (UI) to "retweet" which will post a repost on my site first (with a permalink I own), and then auto-POSSE a native retweet on Twitter if applicable.
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aaronpk
bret: good idea!
#
GWG
tantek: Agree with you on that. But, the data that is pulled in is pretty much the same. The differences in presentation vary
#
tantek
I want to keep *reducing* dependence on any part of Twitter's UI
#
tantek
GWG, the differences in presentation are what matter.
#
tantek
Design first.
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barnabywalters
looks like I need to dig out the research I did into these UX flows for these microinteractions, and how the differences are what define them
#
barnabywalters
as this conversation keeps on popping up
#
tantek
barnabywalters: keep documenting such research directly on the wiki
#
tantek
as otherwise it keeps getting not-found
#
GWG
tantek: I'm focusing on iteration right now. Using their code will allow me to get the feature up and running. I can replace it with mine in future.
#
tantek
"their code"?!?
#
bret
tantek: do you plan on adding a shortlink to your own copy in twitter?
#
GWG
tantek: The Twitter embed and such.
#
snarfed.org
edited /reply-context (+383) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ snarfed.org"
(view diff)
#
GWG
tantek: To include in my reply-context code.
#
GWG
tantek: But I intend to use a variant of the same code for likes.
#
GWG
tantek: So the code will determine what I'm responding to, and how I'm responding to it, and call the right display function
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GWG
Which is why I keep dismantling acegiak's pull requests into smaller pieces. He's too specific and I'm trying to be general.
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bret
aaronpk: for indie reposts, where I want to point to someones url and retweet it, would adding something like that to quill be appropriate or a separete client all together?
#
aaronpk
yeah that'd be a good addition to Quill
#
aaronpk
probably a new page on it, like quill.p3k.io/repost instead of quill.p3k.io/new
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aaronpk
I would make a bookmarklet that could jump right to the repost page with a URL in the query string, kind of how I currently do replies right now
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bret
aaronpk what about webactions?
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aaronpk
same idea
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bret
oh ^.^
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tantek
bret - no shortlink in copy of repost on twitter, because the copy on Twitter is best expressed as a native Twitter retweet per: http://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#POSSE_Reposts_of_Tweets
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tantek
GWG the Twitter embed code is good (resistant to site death). Oembed is bad (lossy).
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bret
i like kylewm's native repost format on his site
#
bret
before embedding crap on your site, remember people who have tiny old computers. embedded content kills performance
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snarfed
kylewm++
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Loqi
kylewm has 18 karma
#
bret
on or two elements are usually fine, but in a feed view it can be killer
#
bret
i know because i violate this rule >:[
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tantek
bret agreed. also excess JS :(
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aaronpk
kylewm: nice syndication icons! i'm gonna have to steal those
#
bret
actually using a js loader system can be helpful here
#
bret
shild me from excess JS with a little bit of js
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aaronpk
also I am signed in to your site, I don't remember how or why
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aaronpk
I only do inline embedding of content on permalink pages so that there is only one at a time
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barnabywalters
inline embedding is something I’m finding is causing performance problems with feedreaders
#
GWG
tantek: Any way to automatically get the embed code with the tweet URL?
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barnabywalters
because there’s the potential to have a *lot* of embedded content on the screen at once
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bret
barnabywalters what does this do?
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GWG
bret: I would only embed on single pages
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barnabywalters
so say you want all textareas with class=“codemirror” to have codemirror applied to them, but not to load codemirror at all on pages without said textareas
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tantek
GWG - probably worth documenting in an "Embed Code" section here http://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter
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barnabywalters
you call enhanceEach(‘textarea.codemirror’, [‘path/to/codemirror’ (requirejs dependency list)], callback)
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bret
bret.io/page3/ dont laugh
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barnabywalters
and if there are any elements matching the selector, the libraries are loaded, and callback(element, *dependencies) is called for each element
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barnabywalters
it’s a pattern I use everywhere in Taproot and Shrewdness, and got tired of writing it out explicitly :)
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bret
barnabywalters!!! thats sooo cool!
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bret
i mean barnabywalters++
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barnabywalters
bret: thanks :)
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barnabywalters
there’s no reason why it couldn’t be made requirejs-agnostic, by just passing the paths to scripts
#
bret
barnabywalters thoughts on browserify>
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barnabywalters
but I like writing my front-end code as a function of it’s dependencies
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barnabywalters
bret: I actually do not know what browserify is. the thing for making nodejs server-side code usable on the frontend?
#
bret
it replicates `var module = require('module')` in the browser
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bret
like node!
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barnabywalters
bret: glancing over the docs, it looks like it bundles up all your dependencies into one file and always loads that
#
bret
not totally sure
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barnabywalters
which is great for some sites, but the exact opposite of my goal of only loading the JS which is necessary
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bret
right
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barnabywalters
because my site is weird, and has some pages which require *huge* amounts of js (e.g. abcJS, codemirror) which aren’t used anywhere else
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bear
browserify bundles the nodejs node_modules directory so you can use it as a "normal" web page
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bear
and not all nodejs modules can be put into browserify sadly
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bret
bear does it allow for selective loading?
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bear
nope
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bear
it's a single large tarball
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bear
err (not really a tarball, but you get the idea)
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bear
IMO it's a crutch
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bret
hey man, you use to be a noob at one point ;)
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bear
with nodejs I still am - I just have supported or deployed gobs of nodejs code now and have gotten to learn to love/hate the thing
#
GWG
tantek: The list of Wiki pages I'd like to add to continues to grow.
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GWG
I have a bookmark folder
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bret
you love/hate node too!?
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tantek
GWG, you have to simply edit and add as you go
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tantek
you will never get back to it
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bear
yes, i'm a server kinda coder - nodejs just feels wrong to me
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tantek
just edit and add a one-liner at least - same as you typed in IRC
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barnabywalters
requirejs actually allows you to use var name = require(‘path’) syntax, by scarily parsing it out of function.toString and re-writing the function :O
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bret
{{ stub }} is your firend
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tantek
bret, that's only for whole new pages
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tantek
GWG said "pages I'd like to add to"
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aaronpk
"you will never get back to it" so true
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tantek
certainly don't bother bookmarking it
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tantek
if anything just open a new tab
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aaronpk
at least leave it in an open tab :P
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tantek
jinx :D
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GWG
tantek: I do that too
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tantek
has WAY too many open tabs. ;)
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GWG
tantek: I was just about to say that
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barnabywalters
tantek: there’s a hashtag for that! http://waterpigs.co.uk/tags/tabdump
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aaronpk
ha great idea
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bret
barnabywalters, any issues with blockquotes in a reply to your site?
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barnabywalters
bret: er, maybe? context?
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luxagraf
of the 72 tabs i have open, 6 are indiewebcamp pages i plan to contrib to
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barnabywalters
bret: there shouldn’t be, I’ll check my logs
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barnabywalters
bret: I used the semi-broken http://indiewebify.me/send-webmentions/ form to send webmentions for your reply page and it showed up just fine http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4WZHhH/
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bret
so cool
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bret
my webmention script fell over
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barnabywalters
fans of minimal javascript code for progressive enhancement may also enjoy http://waterpigs.co.uk/articles/a-minimal-javascript-http-abstraction/ </shameless-promotion>
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snarfed
bret: can it get back up?
#
bret
actually aaronpk wrote it
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snarfed
guys, practice safe computing! strive for browser tab zero. it's not just for inboxes any more.
#
luxagraf.net
edited /disclosure (+65) "added contact information to list"
(view diff)
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luxagraf
one down.
#
luxagraf
not really actually. have more for that page, but still compiling research
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aaronpk
bret: it looks like cweiske's webmention endpoint is actually a pingback endpoint
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bret
aaronpk it seemed to work
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bret
<h1>Webmention: All fine</h1>
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bret
<p>Pingback received and processed</p>
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aaronpk
huh ok
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aaronpk
it's just called xmltpc
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bret
snarfed are you referencing xss attacks?
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snarfed
bret: no, more like healthy sane living :P
#
bret
isnt there a bookmark all tabs hotkey?
#
bret
aaronpk, did cweiske basically route around rel=me auth? he noted something about not having to touch microformats
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bret
which would mean no rel=me requirements
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aaronpk
bret: the OAuth part of indieauth doesn't require a rel=me link cause the site turns into its own OAuth provider
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bret
ah interesting
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Loqi
cweiske: barnabywalters left you a message 2 hours, 54 minutes ago: waterpigs.co.uk’s client_id should be a proper URL now!
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Loqi
cweiske: bret left you a message 1 hour, 22 minutes ago: my webmention support is pretty poor right now, XD I have to deal with it manually
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Loqi
cweiske: bret left you a message 1 hour, 7 minutes ago: irony asside, i hope the post didnt come across as agressive, im happy to see openid interoperating with indieauth :)
#
Loqi
cweiske: bret left you a message 1 hour, 6 minutes ago: the rel=me microformat is the key ingredient for setting up indieauth. I think maybe I misunderstood exactly what you did, but its interesting to see how indieauth can route around the rel me auth all toegether
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cweiske
!tell barnabywalters: I could login fine
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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aaronpk
cweiske: does your xmlrpc endpoint also speak webmention?
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cweiske
aaronpk, yes
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cweiske
it does both
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cweiske
it prefers webmention
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cweiske
when sending out
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cweiske
falling back to pingback
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aaronpk
ah crazy. confused me when I saw rel=webmention href=...xmlrpc :)
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cweiske
one endpoint for all
#
Loqi
who, me?
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aaronpk
oh yeah! love the webmention status on link hover!
#
@t
@JosephRooks Etherpad site+content was destroyed by Google http://tantek.com/2010/137/t2/shut-down-removed-content-etherpad-ownyourdata opensourced, Mozilla set up another. (ttk.me t4WZ2)
(twtr.io/nLrikgJUyf)
paulcp, paulcp_, KartikPrabhu, Jeena, KevinMarks_ and petermolnar joined the channel
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ben_thatmustbeme
continuing on tantek's work with people focused URLs.... looking for open comment on this http://ben.thatmustbe.me/static/contacts/
#
bear
of interest for the python coders in the indieweb realm… https://github.com/kennethreitz/hypermark
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ben_thatmustbeme
I mainly made it for android, i'll be testing on more devices later
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GWG
It is very nice
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GWG
ben_thatmustbeme: But I have some feedbck
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GWG
ben_thatmustbeme: Which work in people focused URLs are you referring to?
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ben_thatmustbeme
he did two posts, one on the urls and one with a mock-up
#
GWG
ben_thatmustbeme: You are doing the hangouts icon on SMS
#
ben_thatmustbeme
I should probably do some media tag to reformat for anything larger than mobile screens
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ben_thatmustbeme
yes, its based for android, the newest versions from google have only hangouts for SMS
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GWG
I know
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ben_thatmustbeme
you could install others, but it is the default if you get a nexus phone
#
GWG
ben_thatmustbeme: I have a N5. But, also I think we need a better indieweb icon
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ben_thatmustbeme
so hangouts makes the most sense. yes, i just did that quickly
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ben_thatmustbeme
ideally i'd have one custom for my site
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aaronpk
the indiewebcamp logo should link to your profile page on indiewebcamp.com
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ben_thatmustbeme
good point, perhaps have one for my site and one for iwc.com
#
GWG
I still think that a better icon is needed
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GWG
It looks out of alignment
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aaronpk
why do you need one for your site? clearly they are on your site if they're seeing this page :)
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aaronpk
and yes no squishy icon
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ben_thatmustbeme
so, my idea is to have a set of pages like this that i access privately. its my own contacts list that i access
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ben_thatmustbeme
others that authenticate would have access to this page, so i control my own entry for them, and they control their own entry for me
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snarfed
ben_thatmustbeme etc: shameless plug in case you haven't seen it: https://snarfed.org/2014-03-10_lets-talk-userscript
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cweiske
aaronpk, you said "bret: the OAuth part of indieauth doesn't require a rel=me link cause the site turns into its own OAuth provider"
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GWG
snarfed: Intriguing
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cweiske
oauth is tokens, right?
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cweiske
but I don't need rel=me links for the auth part already
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ben_thatmustbeme
snarfed, interesting indeed
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cweiske
authentication, that is
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cweiske
aaronpk, shouldn't "authorization endpoint" on http://indiewebcamp.com/login-brainstorming be renamed to "authentication endpoint"?
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aaronpk
cweiske: technically it's using it for authentication there, but I don't think it really makes sense to have to specify two endpoints, one for authentication and one for authorization
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aaronpk
you need *some* rel=me link unless you specify a rel=authorization_endpoint
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cweiske
yep. indieauth (the protocol) does not care for rel=me
#
cweiske
only indieauth.com cares
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aaronpk
and relmeauth cares :)
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aaronpk
the relmeauth protocol cares
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cweiske
sure, but http://indiewebcamp.com/login-brainstorming does not describe relmeauth
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aaronpk
correct
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cweiske
indieauth.com implements both indieauth and relmeauth
#
cweiske
confusing this is for some
#
aaronpk
definitely
#
cweiske
so indieauth does not need rel=me :)
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aaronpk
if i was better at naming things this may not be so confusing
#
aaronpk
cause indieauth.com would have been called something else
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GWG
aaronpk: How about superduperauth?
#
snarfed
ALLTHETHINGSauth
#
GWG
snarfed: How did you get your nickname, by the way?
#
snarfed
sadly there's no story. came from picking a domain with friends in college, ~12y ago
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#
@valuedstandards
Slowly reading up on @indiewebcamp stuff. A lot to get your head around, even for a webdev…
(twtr.io/nM1ju6W84H)
#
gregorlove.com
edited /2014/Guest_List (+0) "/* West */ alpha sorting"
(view diff)
#
gregorlove.com
edited /2014/Guest_List (+0) "/* West */ alpha sorting"
(view diff)
#
@gRegorLove
@valuedstandards Feel free to come by on IRC if you have questions: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc
(twtr.io/nM29dqSw4H)
#
GWG
snarfed: That's how I got some of mine
#
@valuedstandards
@vasilis E.g. I love the idea of webmentions, indyauth etc. but still, complex ;)
(twtr.io/nM2DG5puGY)
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GWG
Can't say I disagree with @valuedstandards whoever they aare
#
gRegor`
Yeah, the wiki is overwhelming at first.
#
GWG
At first?
#
GWG
I'm still overwhelmed
#
aaronpk
you don't have to read the entire thing :)
#
gRegor`
hehe
#
gRegor`
I think once it's made clear that it's fine (and even better) to take it in small steps... it works a lot better.
#
gRegor`
Rather than reading all through /webmention, then getting on a tangent of marking up your content with mf2 to work with webmentions, then oh yeah, displaying reply-contexts . . . and so on
#
gRegor`
Instead, just start with marking up your current blog with mf2. Relatively simple step.
#
GWG
gRegor`: More Indieweb for Dummies Articles
#
@vasilis
@valuedstandards I used indyauth to log into the indiewebcamp wiki. Haven’t been able to figure out how webmentions work though
(twtr.io/nM2_jhTEGY)
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snarfed
indiewebify.me is often a better place for newbies to start than the wiki
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gRegor`
:) Yeah, it's on my list.
#
gRegor`
Good point, snarfed
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snarfed
wiki front page is a decent sales pitch, then indiewebify.me to get started, then wiki again for deeper contributions
#
gRegor`
unfortunately indiewebify.me isn't linked on the homepage until the bottom third.
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gRegor`
I bet the majority of first timers won't even get that far, distracted down other wiki pages.
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aaronpk
you realize it's a wiki, right? that means you can fix it ;)
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gRegor`
Oh, I'd forgotten. ;)
#
gRegor`
I'm pretty cautious about making big changes to the front page and other "big" ones
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GWG
Ditto
#
gRegor`
But yeah, it's on my list to help improve these. At some point. So many things. ;)
#
aaronpk
that's fair. you can always copy the home page to a page under your user page like User:gregorlove.com/Home and make changes there
#
cweiske
aaronpk, is there a defined relation between client_id and redirect_uri? or can they be on different domains, different protocols etc?
#
aaronpk
I just realized why they must be able to be on different domains / protocols
#
gRegor`
(Just doing that now for Getting Started, aaronpk :) )
#
aaronpk
the client_id must register its list of valid redirect_uris, but the valid redirect URIs can be any scheme/host/etc
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aaronpk
for mobile apps, an app like https://quill.p3k.io/ may register a redirect URI of quill://auth so that the mobile app launches after the user signs in
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gregorlove.com
created /User:Gregorlove.com/Getting_Started (+7677) "mirror to suggest improvements"
(view diff)
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cweiske
is indieauth.com the official indieauth protocol fallback for homepages that have not authorization_endpoint?
#
aaronpk
fallback is relmeauth
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aaronpk
it's up to the consuming site to decide how to do the relmeauth
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aaronpk
one way is to use indieauth.com, but that's up to the consuming site
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cweiske
so you want to tie indieauth protocol to relmeauth?
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aaronpk
well the alternative is if no authorization_endpoint is found, then you're out of luck
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cweiske
this increases complexity on the client side
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cweiske
1. check for authorization_endpoint
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cweiske
2. check for rel=me
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aaronpk
it's true. that's why I made indieauth.com in the first place
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cweiske
3. decide what to do with rel=me
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cweiske.de
edited /login-brainstorming (+73) "/* Discovery */"
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cweiske
2. could be "let indieauth.com try"
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aaronpk
if you look at ownyourgram.com or quill.p3k.io, they won't let you sign in until you've specified an authorization_endpoint
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cweiske
without checking at all
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aaronpk
I think as a guide for client implementations, that could point to indieauth.com as a helpful tip
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aaronpk
but I wouldn't want that to be in the indieauth spec itself
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gregorlove.com
edited /User:Gregorlove.com/Getting_Started (+7) "/* A Place For Your Stuff */"
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gregorlove.com
edited /User:Gregorlove.com/Getting_Started (+4) "/* A Place For Your Stuff */"
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aaronpk
sorry, that was a horrible sentence.
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aaronpk
I think an implementation guide could recommend using indieauth.com
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GWG
aaronpk: For?
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GWG
aaronpk: I'm curious what the full extent of your vision is
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cweiske
as fallback for the case the user's homepage did not link a authorization_endpoint
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aaronpk
GWG: I definitely have a plan. But rather than making a bunch of flashy talks about it or writing up a "manifesto" I'm trying to demonstrate it piece by piece by documenting it and building out implementations
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gregorlove.com
edited /User:Gregorlove.com/Getting_Started (-256) "/* Domain sign-in and Contact info */"
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GWG
aaronpk: I was more curious if you see it becoming widely adopted?
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gregorlove.com
edited /User:Gregorlove.com/Getting_Started (+10) "/* Set up your home page and log in to this wiki */"
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gregorlove.com
edited /User:Gregorlove.com/Getting_Started (+0) "/* Get a Personal Domain */"
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gregorlove.com
edited /User:Gregorlove.com/Getting_Started (+0) "/* Get a Place for Your Stuff */"
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gregorlove.com
edited /User:Gregorlove.com/Getting_Started (-20) "/* Content Publishing */"
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gregorlove.com
edited /User:Gregorlove.com/Getting_Started (-12) "/* Publish content on your domain */"
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gRegor`
@valuedstandards replied that he might have to come by IRC soon
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gregorlove.com
edited /User:Gregorlove.com/Getting_Started (+4) "/* Get a place for your stuff */"
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gregorlove.com
edited /User:Gregorlove.com/Getting_Started (+633) "/* Set up your home page and log in to this wiki */"
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gregorlove.com
edited /User:Gregorlove.com/Getting_Started (-12) "/* Set up your home page and web sign in */"
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GWG
tantek: The oembed includes the blockquote on Twitter
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gregorlove.com
edited /User:Gregorlove.com/Getting_Started (+469) "/* Set up your authorship information */"
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david.shanske.com
edited /Twitter (+331) "Embeds"
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gregorlove.com
edited /User:Gregorlove.com/Getting_Started (-8) "/* Publish content on your domain */"
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gregorlove.com
edited /User:Gregorlove.com/Getting_Started (-47) "/* Publish content on your domain */"
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gregorlove.com
edited /User:Gregorlove.com/Getting_Started (-1) "/* Set up your authorship information */"
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gregorlove.com
edited /User:Gregorlove.com/Getting_Started (+59) "/* Publish content on your domain */"
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gregorlove.com
edited /User:Gregorlove.com/Getting_Started (+73) "/* Add microformats2 to your content */"
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gRegor`
I chose to make each subheading an action. e.g. "Get a personal domain" instead of "Personal domain"
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gRegor`
I broke out web sign in and authorship information into two steps.
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gRegor`
Linked the indiewebify.me rel-me test earlier in the page too
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rascul
looks like good start
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GWG
gRegor`: Have a deep dish, on me
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gRegor`
Don't really care for "Each of these steps is a just a bit more challenging and will make you a bit more indie." but I'm not sure a replacement.
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GWG
I don't care for it either
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gRegor`
How about "a bit more independent"?
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GWG
How about... bring you closer to your goal of ultimate independence?
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gregorlove.com
edited /User:Gregorlove.com/Getting_Started (-5) "/* Set up your home page and web sign in */"
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GWG
How about... bring you closer to full liberation from the corporate internet?
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gregorlove.com
edited /User:Gregorlove.com/Getting_Started (+2) "/* Set up your authorship information */"
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gregorlove.com
edited /User:Gregorlove.com/Getting_Started (+54) "/* Set up your home page and web sign in */"
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gRegor`
Haha
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gregorlove.com
edited /User:Gregorlove.com/Getting_Started (-91) "/* Set up your home page and web sign in */"
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GWG
Giddy with creationism?
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gregorlove.com
edited /User:Gregorlove.com/Getting_Started (+0) "/* Set up your authorship information */"
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gregorlove.com
edited /User:Gregorlove.com/Getting_Started (+1) "/* Getting Started on the Indieweb */"
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gregorlove.com
edited /User:Gregorlove.com/Getting_Started (+1) "/* Getting Started on the Indieweb */"
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gregorlove.com
edited /User:Gregorlove.com/Getting_Started (+94) "/* Set up your authorship information */"
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gregorlove.com
edited /User:Gregorlove.com/Getting_Started (+1) "/* Set up your authorship information */"
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rascul
aaronpk is there no rss for news.indiewebcamp.com?
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gregorlove.com
edited /User:Gregorlove.com/Getting_Started (+688) "/* Add microformats2 to your content */"
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gregorlove.com
edited /User:Gregorlove.com/Getting_Started (+96) "/* Add microformats to your content */"
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@juicedragon
Build your #business to last. #OwnYourData!!! Read my tips here: http://gastowngazette.com/build-to-last-own-your-data/#.U5ol-YxrbzR #startup #bcbiz #smallbiz #organizationalbehavior
(twtr.io/nMC4VD3zRs)
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bret
rascul: no rss no
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bret
yeah :(
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bret
rascul: but we can make one i think
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bret
ya i thinnk so
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gregorlove.com
edited /User:Gregorlove.com/Getting_Started (-413) "/* Add microformats to your content */"
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bret
how does that look rascul
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bret
rascul: it seems to mostly work...
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@hertling
Halfway through a migration from blogger to wordpress to go #indieweb.
(twtr.io/nMCnXJDiKU)
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rascul
bret looks fine to me
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rascul
well almost, there's some funny unicode thing going on by the looks of it
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bret
yay atom!
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@ArthurSmid
RT @hertling: Halfway through a migration from blogger to wordpress to go #indieweb.
(twtr.io/nMDtKMFSdx)
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aaronpk
bret: ew there's some encoding errors on indienews
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aaronpk
oh wait that may have been the fault of aaronparecki.com
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bret
lol!
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kylewm
snarfed, the good news is that I finished the first cut at refetch and reparse h-feed behavior, the bad news is it's almost half as many lines as the original posse-post-discovery PR itself :P
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snarfed
kylewm: wow! just the actual code? or including the tests?
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kylewm
including tests
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snarfed
ah, that's not so bad then
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snarfed
tests tend to duplicate
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snarfed
might be worth seeing if there's some of that, and maybe see if it can be unified a bit
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snarfed
not high priority though
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snarfed
kylewm: more importantly, thanks! glad it's out! i'll look at it tonight
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kylewm
snarfed, thank you!
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bret
kylewm: how do you store your website data?
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bret
oh neato
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snarfed
git-scm needs starring
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Loqi
[@rtaibah] #Path gives up on memories
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Loqi
moves into ephemeral messaging. Companies pivot, goals change & ppl keep investing in these services #indieweb (http://twtr.io/nMMFNmJoEw)