#indiewebcamp 2014-06-18

2014-06-18 UTC
bnvk, KevinMarks, scor, lukebrooker, vanderwal, fmarier, paulcp, chrissaad, wolftune, shaners, grantmacken, j12t, dybskiy, snarfed and lukebrooker_ joined the channel
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@kevinmarks
“Without blinking an eye, Facebook went from homegrown, underground, exclusive social network to Coca-Cola” http://techcrunch.com/2014/06/17/facebook-snapchat-slingshot/ #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/479112487304826880)
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GWG
I have returned
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GWG
Ooops.
lukebrooker, wtd, fmarier, tantek, KevinMarks, sparverius, snarfed, eschnou, caseorganic and gRegor` joined the channel
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gRegor`
/clear
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@jasongreen
Smallest Federated Wiki needs web-signin/relmeauth/indieauth support.
(twitter.com/_/status/479136780608761856)
brianloveswords, chrissaad, catsup, pauloppenheim, eschnou, nloadholtes, pfefferle, KartikPrabhu, petermolnar, fmarier and friedcell joined the channel
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@yatil
@gerritvanaaken Ja, das ist echt krass, wo wir doch jetzt Webmentions haben ;-)
(twitter.com/_/status/479165519212605440)
jsilvestre, LauraJ, Sebastien-L, wtd, krendil, glennjones, nloadholtes, barnabywalters, danfowler, pfefferle, adactio, bnvk, icco, scor, chloeweil, vanderwal, chloeweil_, wolftune, eschnou, snarfed, brianloveswords and gRegor` joined the channel
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gRegor`
barnabywalters: submitted a pr for php-mf2
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barnabywalters
gRegor`: just looking over it now!
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gRegor`
cool :)
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GWG
Good morning
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barnabywalters
gRegor`: so IMO your approach to fixing the problem given is unnecessarily complex, but it does raise some valid points and issues which were previously hidden!
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barnabywalters
the space prefixing was there to prevent matches from inside property names, e.g. p-like-of contains both p- and e-
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gRegor`
I didn't exhaustively go through the code, honestly. That was the first place I saw to fix it.
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barnabywalters
so actually using stripos is a better function there
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barnabywalters
and also those functions handle mixed whitespace (lots of spaces, tabs, newlines) very badly, so I’m improving that
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gRegor`
brb
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barnabywalters
tbh I’m not even sure the matching should be case insensitive
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GWG
barnabywalters: Can I ask you a question?
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barnabywalters
probably not, according to the microformats spec
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gRegor`
Should I fix it in another function - higher up in the process?
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barnabywalters
GWG: always — just ask, don’t ask to ask :)
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kylewm.com
edited /2014/Guest_List (+249) "/* West */ added m'self :)"
(view diff)
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gRegor`
Or is it the strtolower that is too complex?
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gRegor`
Yay, kylewm!
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barnabywalters
gRegor`: specifically I was referring to the extra, unnecessary variables — working on it now as there’s actually a whole bunch of fixes which need doing, but I’ve merged your test — super helpful!
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Loqi
woot
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GWG
barnabywalters: I had some trouble with the markup on the new response box
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gRegor`
Ah, ok. If I need o re-use a concatenated value more than once I usually make a variable for it. :)
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gRegor`
s/o re/to re/
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Loqi
gRegor` meant to say: Ah, ok. If I need to re-use a concatenated value more than once I usually make a variable for it. :)
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GWG
The grey box is part of a plugin and adds the information to the content, therefore I think I'm making a markup mess
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GWG
gRegor`: By the way, saw you moved the page.
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barnabywalters
GWG: looks like a perfectly good h-cite to me, although typically you’ll want to define the url, name and content properties specifically rather than letting them be implied
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barnabywalters
also consider whether or not you really want the reply context inside the e-content
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GWG
barnabywalters: That is...something of a problem
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barnabywalters
as consumers should detect a in-reply-to h-cite and display it separately
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GWG
barnabywalters: The code dynamically inserts the reply context into the content. In order to display it elsewhere, I'd need the Wordpress theme to support it.
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GWG
I intend to make mine support a location outside the content box...but to make it universal, I need to support inside and outside
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GWG
barnabywalters: The reason I'm asking is that. How will that affect consumers of the content, for anyone who doesn't customize the position?
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barnabywalters
GWG: basically it will mean that consumers which correclty parse and display reply contexts will show the reply context twice, once as a reply context and once when displaying the content
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@kyle_wm
Signed up for #IndieWebCamp PDX 6/28-29! Starting to think abt session topics...python tooling, lowering the barrier to entry, and diversity
(twitter.com/_/status/479271716380635136)
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GWG
kylewm: West is winning.
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GWG
barnabywalters: I guess it is what it is. How do you mark up the 'verb' though? The human readable "In Reply To"?
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GWG
It's a heading, but the parser sees it otherwise?
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GWG
Hmm...this may be my biggest Facepile yet. Great for testing... http://david.shanske.com/notes/2014/06/18/evening/
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barnabywalters
GWG: no need to add any microformats to the “in reply to”
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GWG
barnabywalters: I was trying to figure out how to exclude it
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barnabywalters
GWG: generally it’s not a great idea to put any content with a lot of custom styling applied to it in e-content
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barnabywalters
since consumers typically have to strip out CSS for safety and consistency
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GWG
barnabywalters: Should have that problem licked in a few days. It will be the same output code, but different positioning.
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barnabywalters
basically a good test is to look at it with CSS disabled, and if anything looks “off” it probably shouldn’t be in e-content, or should be restructured
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barnabywalters
e.g. raw text quoted as a reply context should at least be in a <blockquote>
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barnabywalters
that way the consumer has some level of understanding of how to display it
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GWG
barnabywalters: I thought I did. Must have been one of the other two display cases
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GWG
I had three.
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GWG
URL, Title and Quote. URL and Quote but no Title, Title and Quote but no URL.
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gRegor`
barnabywalters: So I can understand better, what's the reason class names should be case-sensitive?
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barnabywalters
gRegor`: classname matching behaviour in browsers is to treat them as case-sensitive, so to minimise confusion by maximising consistency, microformats parsers should work the same way
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gRegor`
Gotcha
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barnabywalters
gRegor`: thanks for bringing this to my attention, it probably would never have been fixed otherwise :)
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barnabywalters
I think now enough fixes have accumulated for a new php-mf2 version
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gRegor`
You're welcome. I'm enjoying digging into this more, and getting used to github.
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rascul
ooo i never knew class names were case sensitive
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barnabywalters
gRegor`: you an me both, this is the first time I’ve ever had to review and manually merge pull requests for a piece of software people actually rely on
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gRegor`
rascul: Yep, it can be a major pain if you work with people that sometimes camelCaseClassNames
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rascul
mine are always lowercase
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gRegor`
Same. And I'm moving from using underscores to using hyphens lately.
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barnabywalters
hyphens all the way!
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rascul
in some languages hypens can be a problem
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rascul
foo-bar == foo - bar
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barnabywalters
yeah they should almost never be used in identifiers in languages
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rascul
i have merged notes and articles into the same thing for my site
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rascul
because i feel like writing an article is more work than writing a long note with a title heh
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luxagraf
aaronpk: so stumbled across this over the weekend, https://github.com/i-a/i-a.github.io which sounds great, but is it still an active project?
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aaronpk
luxagraf: it's more of a design guideline right now rather than an actual project
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barnabywalters
luxagraf: a few of us are building up archives of everything we link to, but we’ve not published them anywhere or combined them yet
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luxagraf
aaronpk: okay, i was building a little crawler to backup my bookmarks so I thought I'd see what others were doing
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luxagraf
and that got me thinking that I should parse and backup everything i link to.
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jonnybarnes
when it works ZNC is quite cool
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barnabywalters
luxagraf: https://github.com/Taproot/archive is what I use, may be of interest
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luxagraf
barnabywalters: yeah making things like that public has lots of potential problems. even if the original link dies unfortunately
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luxagraf
barnabywalters: thanks, already read through your code :)
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barnabywalters
luxagraf: yep, actually figuring out how to publish this stuff is something I have yet to figure out
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barnabywalters
e.g. do I make a crawler which crawls my old notes for broken links and replaces them with links to the archived version?
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luxagraf
it would be interesting to hear a legal professional weigh in on whether or not publishing something just to show what your repy is in reference to falls under a fair use provision
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aaronpk
that's what I want to do
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barnabywalters
luxagraf: pretty certain that actual reply contexts completely fall under fair use provisions
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barnabywalters
especially for text — it’s effectively a quote and attribution
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barnabywalters
photos, video, audio maybe a little more complex
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barnabywalters
and maybe whole pages are considered a different thing
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luxagraf
barnabywalters: I would think so to, but I've been continually surprised by what does not qualify as fair use.
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luxagraf
tantek: yeah, that's what got me thinking about this stuff
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barnabywalters
the weird thing about fair use is that IIRC it’s proportional — you get to use a percentage of a work without violating it
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luxagraf
well, that and the considerable number of my bookmarks/linked urls that now point to 404s
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barnabywalters
but a note is so short that there’s a “fair use” proportion would be a couple of characters
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tantek
I think there's a different provision for archival
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tantek
that libraries etc. use
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tantek
part of the point of maintaining a collective archive is that by the very nature of being collective (rather than individual) it looks/feels more like a public library
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tantek
plus, once we get some critical mass, we hook it up to stream into archive.org
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luxagraf
barnabywalters: one of my thoughts for deadlinks, was to change them to point to a plain text backup so that the barebones of the page would be there and there would be no doubt that i wasn't trying to duplicate the content
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luxagraf
tantek: that's why I asked aaronpk about https://github.com/i-a/i-a.github.io i was curious if people were making collectively backups.
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luxagraf
tantek: I've got a crawler running now so if that ever happens, I'm happy to contribute
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barnabywalters
luxagraf: that’s an interesting idea. another solution would be to upload the data to the Internet Archive and link to that copy
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tantek.com
edited /IndieArchive (+347) "new section IndieWeb Examples with aaronpk and barnabywalters"
(view diff)
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barnabywalters
as they’re also more likely to have archived external resources, which I don’t do at the moment
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tantek
luxagraf - that would be great
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tantek
barnabywalters is right, if you can upload to the internet archive and have that work, go for it
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tantek
IndieArchive was an attempt at doing something more efficient
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barnabywalters
then the IA handle all the legal bother :)
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rascul
barnabywalters also letting archive.org handle any legal issues could be a plus
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rascul
heh barnabywalters won that round
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tantek
sure, could even treat indiearchive as a cache of stuff submitted to archive.org
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tantek
if anything on indiearchive gets any bother, simple take it down and point to archive.org instead
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tantek
maybe even drop in redirects
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rascul
there is a blue upload button in top right corner of archive.org
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tantek
rascul - the point is to automate it
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rascul
indeed
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tantek
so that your publishing software captures archives of stuff just by you linking to it in your posts
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tantek
and then stores it in github instead of your own local file system
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luxagraf
Looks like Archive.org even has a nice JSON API https://archive.org/help/wayback_api.php
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luxagraf
For querying anyway
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tantek
how do they avoid people uploading a bunch of spam or garbage or bad data?
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tantek
(which is what happened to Google Data when they tried this)
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gRegor`
barnabywalters: Are there php-mf2 goals I can help work on, outside the issue tracker?
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rascul
ftp upload but ftp can be scripted easily enough http://archive.org/help/contrib-advanced.php
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tantek
yeah exactly
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tantek
the point of the github IndieArchive is that since everything can be traced back to a github identity, there's a lot less incentive to burn an identifier with bad uploads
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barnabywalters
gRegor`: php-mf2’s goals are 1) to be the reference implementation of the mf2 parsing spec and 2) to get people from zero to canonical microformat structures as fast as possible
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tantek
excited for tonights four-city Homebrew Website Club meetup(s)!!!
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barnabywalters
so if you can find a way to make it more spec-compliant, or to make it simpler, that’d be awesome. otherwise, time is better spent on the wider microformats/indieweb ecosystem
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barnabywalters
e.g. making tools for actually consuming microformats2 data more easily
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gRegor`
ok
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luxagraf
rascul: fyi, i get a 404 for your about page
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rascul
yeah i haven't made it yet
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rascul
see my note about expecting things to be broken :)
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@indiewebcamp
RT @BarnabyWalters: Released php-mf2 v0.2.7 with contributions from @aaronpk and @gregorlove — some small new features a… http://t.co/ysswf…
(twitter.com/_/status/479288665894449152)
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tantek
does anyone else here besides tommorris have their own wiki on their own domain?
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aaronpk
caseorganic does!
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tantek
also with MediaWiki right?
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aaronpk
I used to, but ended up merging it with my site
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barnabywalters
briansuda has one but pretty sure all the pages are private
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tantek
just found a bug in caseorganic.com/about and is wondering if he can fix it.
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aaronpk
oh yeah I had a private wiki too but took it down a while ago in favor of my dropbox folder of text files
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barnabywalters
aaronpk: I tried setting up a private wiki but got bored so use a git-managed dropbox folder of text files :)
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aaronpk
text files ftw
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tantek
aaronpk - I remember there used to be a way to sign-in with Twitter to caseorganic's wiki and edit it
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tantek
is that gone?
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rascul
i wouldn't know what to use a private wiki for, everything i would put there i already have a more preferred method of storing
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barnabywalters
SFW is much closer to text files in terms of complexity than mediawiki
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aaronpk
tantek: replaced by indieauth
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caseorganic
tantek: yes, it's gone. i liked that though!
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tantek
aaronpk - "replaced" implies there's still some way to edit?
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aaronpk
caseorganic.com/about is not on her wiki tho
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tantek
it's not?
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aaronpk
that's just her regular site
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tantek
caseorganic - I've signed in with indieauth and don't see a edit button
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tantek
caseorganic: bugfix for /about :
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aaronpk
the mediawiki install is only under /wiki/
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tantek
s/Case founded IndieWebCamp with Tantek Çelik and Aaron Parecki in 2010/Case founded IndieWebCamp with Tantek Çelik, Aaron Parecki, and Crystal Beasley in 2011
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tantek
(two instances)
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aaronpk
url routing is hard :P
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tantek
aaronpk: true!
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tantek
hello glennjones!
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glennjones
hi tantek
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tantek
love this: "You are reading the external memory prosthetic of Amber Case. " - http://caseorganic.com/wiki/Main_Page
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tantek
aaronpk, interesting that caseorganic.com and caseorganic.com/wiki/ have different login cookies
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barnabywalters
gRegor`: actually, if you want to do *super* helpful work on php-mf2, hooking it up to https://github.com/tobiastom/tests would be *awesome*
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barnabywalters
I’ve been meaning to do so for a while but the current test suite works adequately and therefore is not at the top of my priority list to improve
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tantek.com
edited /wiki (+87) "/* Page type */ examples, caseorganic"
(view diff)
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gRegor`
Not sure what that entails, barnabywalters. Might be out of my league.
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tantek
so only tommorris and caseorganic have wiki pages on their own domains then?
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barnabywalters
gRegor`: basically an automated test suite where instead of manually writing a test for each case, a script is run which loops over all the test cases in that repo, runs them through php-mf2 and compares the output with the expected output
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gRegor`
Using PHPunit?
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barnabywalters
gRegor`: PHPUnit could be used, but it’s real advantages are for manually written test cases with complex behaviour
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barnabywalters
this would literally be a script which loops over some folders, calling a function for each one and noting whether or not the output matches the contents of a file
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barnabywalters
gRegor`: we should move this php-mf2-specific discussion to #microformats
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gRegor`
Ah, calling parse() on every input.html file? I think I'm seeing.
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tantek.com
edited /wiki-page (+924) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ subsections, add caseorganic, evidence of since dates, IndieWeb partials, having a redirect"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /wiki-page (+38) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ both use MediaWiki"
(view diff)
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tantek
caseorganic, congrats on having your own wiki on your site since 2011-07-01! First of us to do so.
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jonnybarnes
so im trying to get photos on my notes, and someones going to say you shouldn't use MySQL in the first place, but I'm thinking that jonnybarnes.net/note/22 should have the image at jonnybarnes.net/assets/img/notes/22
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caseorganic
tantek: really? i didn't know i was the first. it's been wonderful to have it
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tantek
ariel was just asking about indieweb wikis
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jonnybarnes
im also thinking of doing the same as you guys and moving my URLs to jonnybarnes.net/notes/{nb60 encoding of id}
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tantek
jonnybarnes: what's the "id" from?
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jonnybarnes
the id value is from the id column of my notes table in the MySQL db
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tantek
bnvk, aaronpk about an indiestore repo - why repo before seeing it actually live on someone's personal site?
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jonnybarnes
the id is set to auto_increment
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tantek
or rather, why not keep it in your own repo until you have something deployed, which someone else could redeploy on their own, and then and only then put it into a "central" or "shared" repo?
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tantek
ewwww re: id from MySQL
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aaronpk
I would tend to agree
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aaronpk
related, I'm thinking about cleaning up the indieweb github
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tantek
aaronpk - that sounds good
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barnabywalters
aaronpk: it needs it, there’s a bunch of unmaintained repos on there
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tantek
related, I saw somethinga about cleaning up /projects
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barnabywalters
tantek: IIRC that was bret?
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tantek
barnabywalters: agreed. we need to have an active selfdogfood requirement for everything on the indieweb github
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aaronpk
jonnybarnes: re img URLs they should probably end in .jpg or .png for readability
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tantek
maybe we need a pledging process or something
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aaronpk
pledging?
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tantek
where people pledge a project for the indieweb github
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tantek
and then during the pledging period, the community evaluates whether the project is worthy of the repo
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tantek
i.e. does it exemplify indieweb principles
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tantek
for the duration of the pleding period
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tantek
s/pleding/pledging
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: for the duration of the pledging period
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barnabywalters
not sure what the indiewebcamp organisation is even for
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tantek
barnabywalters: perhaps file an issue asking that ;)
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barnabywalters
is it a good idea for it to fork existing projects? what does that achieve?
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tantek
bret - how did you want to clean up /projects ?
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barnabywalters
it’s only really historical accident that php-mf2 is under that organisation
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aaronpk
I don't think it's a good idea to fork existing projects. that's what the /projects page is for
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tantek
barnabywalters: I think it's a good place for project maintainers to put projects they want to share ownership of
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tantek
as you did with php-mf2
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jonnybarnes
aaronpk: yeah, probably
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jonnybarnes
aaronpk: just need to work out how to do both in the code
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aaronpk
i believe the initial idea was that forking a project was a way to distribute it, treating the indieweb github page as a list of "featured" projects
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barnabywalters
tantek: yep, makes sense to *move* things there permanently. at the mo IIRC there are some random forks of projects for no reason
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tantek
aaronpk - makes sense
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tantek
hence the pledging thing
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jonnybarnes
i.e. make sure I have <img src="....png"> its a png file
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tantek
!tell bret how did you want to clean up /projects ? I want to help with that too.
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk
re: github, i'm tempted to get rid of everything that hasn't been updated in 2013 or 2014
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rascul
/projects seems to me like it should be indieweb stuff that indieweb people created
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tantek
rascul - or are actively using on their own domains
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tantek
I think it is good to encourage re-use
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rascul
yeah i was going to append or indieweb methods of implementation of other projects
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tantek
e.g. WordPress belongs on their IMO
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tantek
s/their/there
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: e.g. WordPress belongs on there IMO
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tantek
I think /projects should be a real world / selfdogfood filtered view of such projects
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aaronpk
actualy it's probably completely safe to delete any forks on the indieweb org that haven't been updated in 2yrs
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tantek
barnabywalters: what's the status of https://github.com/indieweb/own-your-comments ?
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barnabywalters
tantek: unmaintained shell, can be deleted freely
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rascul
hrm am i a creator? pretty sure i am in the context of indieweb, i just want to verify
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tantek
barnabywalters: you also added https://github.com/indieweb/salmon-php - which AFAIK, *no-one* uses here
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tantek
rascul see /creator
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tantek
barnabywalters: perhaps take https://github.com/indieweb/salmon-php into your own gh account ? I think we should delete it from github.com/indieweb
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rascul
i'm reading it, it looks like i meet all the criteria - i use https://rascul.io for primary identity now, i wrote the code and design and it's all open source
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barnabywalters
based on https://packagist.org/packages/indieweb/salmon it’s been installed 13 times, but nothing recent — those were probably me testing
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barnabywalters
yup, that one’s best moved to my own account
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tantek
rascul - congrats! :)
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tantek
barnabywalters: same thing with https://github.com/indieweb/push - move to your own account, and let's delete from github.com/indieweb
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tantek
there clearly hasn't been a big push for PuSH here
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tantek
(sorry #sorrynotsorry)
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barnabywalters
tantek: done
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aaronpk
:( I like the idea of PuSH but it isn't really a priority for me until I have a solid reader setup
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barnabywalters
tantek: hopefully feed reader work will change that :)
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tantek
aaronpk, barnabywalters exactly. when we cross that bridge then we can put something up there accordingly.
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barnabywalters
I’m currently publishing PuSH 0.4 notifications for my homepage feed
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tantek
is anyone else using https://github.com/indieweb/IndieWeb-Reply-Browser-Extension ? I REALLY like the idea, and seamless reply UI is a key focus for competitive indieweb UI
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tantek
(anyone else besides aaronpk - assuming aaronpk is still using it!)
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aaronpk
(it was a fork of https://github.com/aaronpk/IndieWeb-Reply-Browser-Extension so I deleted the indieweb version)
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aaronpk
and actually I'm not still using it cause I never actually installed it on my new computer
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aaronpk
i've been using bookmarklet buttons instead
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tantek
aaronpk whoa, that's too bad
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tantek
interesting - do you have the bookmarkelt buttons documented somewhere?
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tantek
perhaps on /webactions ?
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tantek
anyone know brolund?
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aaronpk
it does mean one extra click to reply to a tweet cause i have to first go to the tweet permalink page, can't just reply from within the stream
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barnabywalters
aaronpk: you don’t have webaction toolbelt installed?
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aaronpk
no :/ it makes things kind of ugly
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barnabywalters
that is an issue which has been raised before
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tantek
barnabywalters: ugly UI is a blocker
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barnabywalters
I want to fix it but it’s waaay down on my list of things to do
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barnabywalters
pull requests/design work *hugely* appreciated
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tantek
so no one here uses unhosted AFAIK, and there's no evidence of selfdogfood of it either so let's delete https://github.com/indieweb/friendsunhosted
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gRegor`
perks up about UI
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tantek
not even sure how that got on there/
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jonnybarnes
barnabywalters: the github link on this: http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4WeFif/ isnt actually a link to github
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aaronpk
tantek: the remaining 3 forks are from the initial creation of the indieweb org which was more like a project gallery
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aaronpk
i'll delete them cause they're all forks and not canonical repos
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barnabywalters
jonnybarnes: fixed! thanks for spotting that
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tantek
aaronpk I'm just going through them one at a time to review them for the record
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tantek
in case someone comes by later and asks
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aaronpk
ok good thinking
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jonnybarnes
barnabywalters: jesus that was quick
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tantek
at least capturing some reasoning
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barnabywalters
jonnybarnes: not bad considering I don’t even have an “edit” button :)
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tantek
we need to be pretty harsh about rejecting vapor / non-selfdogfood
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rascul
hates vaporware
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tantek
!tell bnvk why do you want a repo on github.com/indieweb for "store" before it is shown to be working in some capacity on your own site?
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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tantek
problem with being a "gallery" is that it dilutes the stuff that is actually real world that indieweb community folks are using / depending on on a daily basis
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aaronpk
agreed
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tantek
aaronpk - I can't get to page 2 of github.com/indieweb repos because maybe you already deleted them? :/
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aaronpk
deleting https://github.com/indieweb/libreprojects because the fork was last updated in 2012 and the canonical version was updated in march
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tantek
I have no idea what came after friendsunhosted
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aaronpk
tantek: yeah and barnaby deleted his too, just refresh to get a new page list
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gRegor`
barnabywalters: the UI work you were soliciting is for webaction toolbelt, right?
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barnabywalters
gRegor`: yup, the buttons are ugly
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barnabywalters
particularly the ones which get injected into twitter.com, as they don’t fit in at all
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aaronpk
also deleting https://github.com/indieweb/helloworld because the fork was last updated in 2012 and the canonical was updated a few months ago
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tantek
!tell jancborchardt looks like you added https://github.com/indieweb/libreprojects in 2012 and it appears to not be maintained at all - it's just a directory of other projects right? not sure that makes sense in the indieweb repo (i.e. it's not something you can install to help get on the indieweb)
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk
tantek: see my note about that above
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tantek
aaronpk - yup, just wanted to try to give jancborchardt a heads-up directly since he appears to be in the channel
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aaronpk
no harm done by deleting the fork since he's continued to maintain his canonical repo
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tantek
also the reasoning in particular about being a directory rather than an installable project
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rascul
it seems strange to me, using github for indieweb stuff
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tantek
rascul - do you have a git install on your own domain?
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rascul
gitolite and cgit
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barnabywalters
rascul: not everyone does, e.g. cweiske has done a bunch of work on self-hosted git
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barnabywalters
it’s more of a commons than a silo though due to it’s decentralised nature — only PRs and issues are siloed
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tantek
what software is running that?
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rascul
anything i have on github is somewhere else first
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rascul
tantek the web interface is cgit
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rascul
gitolite runs the backend
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KartikPrabhu
rascul: I'd like to self-host code too. probably others also... any documentation on how you do it would be sweet! :)
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tantek
fascinating
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rascul
i guess i could write something up in the wiki
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aaronpk
rascul++ for documenting his git setup!
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Loqi
rascul has 5 karma
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Loqi
rascul has 6 karma
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rascul
go me!
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aaronpk
(I just use gitlab cause it bundles it all in one go)
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rascul
yeah gitlab is nifty, too heavy for what i was looking for though
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aaronpk
i can see that
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rascul
might be good for git.indiewebcamp.com though :)
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aaronpk
not til there's an indieauth plugin for gitlab :)
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KartikPrabhu
i once thought of self-hosting git and then using webmentions for PR and issues but never got around to building that... so it is all fufu at this point
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rascul
ahh good point
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barnabywalters
KartikPrabhu: fufu? future?
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tantek.com
edited /git (+476) "software, silos, see also, lots of links"
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KartikPrabhu
fufu = fluff :P
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tantek
rascul - want to take a crack at creating the pages linked from http://indiewebcamp.com/git ?
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tantek
bbiab
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rascul
stuff i make will go into git repos of mine in various locations, github is always the last place to push to
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rascul
tantek i shall shortly
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KartikPrabhu
me is off to do physics stuff. gregor`: HWC is still on in this beautiful thunderstorm yes?
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gRegor`
I think cweiske tracks his own code and POSSEs to github.
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gRegor`
KartikPrabhu: Yep
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tantek.com
edited /GitHub (-13) "/* Self-hosted alternatives */ see main, link to local pages instead of URLs"
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luxagraf
rascul: do you have your host repos push on to github with a post commit hook or something?
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luxagraf
I host all my own code and experimented with doing that, but i never got the push to github part automated.
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aaronpk
is running such an old version of gitlab tho and it's a PITA to upgrade :(
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jonnybarnes
a step closer with my server's IPv6 setup :)
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luxagraf
aaronpk: i passed on gitlab for exactly that reason.
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aaronpk
luxagraf: because it's in rapid development mode? (i.e. not stable?)
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luxagraf
aaronpk: basically yes. it seems to love backwards-incompatible changes. not what i want in something that holds the primary source of everything i do.
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luxagraf
aaronpk: and it needs the whole rails stack, which i otherwise have no use for
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aaronpk
i'm wondering if it's a little more stable now. I installed at version 2 or something, back when each version was completely changing how system user accounts and git repos were stored on disk
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rascul
luxagraf no, i just push master to github from time to time
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luxagraf
aaronpk: could be. i know there's ubuntu/debian packages now, which makes it bit easier to install than when i tried.
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aaronpk
oh neat
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aaronpk
I wonder if it would run well on a $5/mo digitalocean or $10/mo linode
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rascul
i have git repos in many different places, i should probably centralize those some time to rascul.io heh
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aaronpk
or heck an amazon micro instance since it's easier to back those up
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rascul
aaronpk digitalocean has a gitlab application one can spin up
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aaronpk
whoa didn't even realize digitalocean was doing one-click installs
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rascul
it'll run fine on the $5 one as long as it isn't too heavily used probably
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rascul
i messed with it briefly but i didn't try to put much load on it or anything
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luxagraf
and for the record, i think rascul is right, hosting indieweb projects on github is, well, not selfdogfood
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rascul
posse to github :)
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aaronpk
github is a silo just like the other silos. it's not the end of the world to use it!
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luxagraf
aaronpk: true and git repos are very portable, which is all the more reason to POSSE to it somehow
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rascul
luxagraf a post commit hook to push to github is something i've been thinking about, i just haven't got around to doing it yet
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rascul.io
edited /Bitbucket (+40) "Add link to bitbucket and dfn"
(view diff)
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luxagraf
I'm going to work on that at somet point, see if I can create a system and mirror a few things to github
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bret.io
created /Template:bret (+134) "Created page with "<span class="h-card">{{sparkline|https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2926/14055807513_dea2b533b6_s.jpg}}[[User:Bret.io|Bret Comnes" target="_blank">User:Bret.io|Bret" target="_blank">https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2926/14055807513_dea2b533b6_s.jpg}}[[User:Bret.io|Bret Comnes]]</span>""
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gRegor`
That thing where you spend 15 minutes wondering why str_replace("/r/n", '', $string) is not replacing the returns in a string . . .
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gRegor`
Then realizing you used forward slashes instead of backslashes
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gRegor`
needs more coffee
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bret
computers--
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gRegor`
coffee++
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Loqi
coffee has 18 karma
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Loqi
bret: tantek left you a message 2 hours, 8 minutes ago: how did you want to clean up /projects ? I want to help with that too.
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Loqi
computers has -1 karma
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gRegor`
Easy now. Those computers are my career. :)
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rascul
gRegor` heh i was wondering what you had in the /r/n directory at first
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gRegor`
Hehe
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rascul
i didn't read it right without backslashes
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@muhh
Die ganzen IndieWeb Plugins für Wordpress reizen mich ja am meisten. http://byzero.de/?p=31
(twitter.com/_/status/479332006283603969)
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bret
!tell tantek, started making some notes on how to recategorize the projects into something more useful
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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KartikPrabhu
is putting your data on S3 or dropbox considered silo-ing?
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KartikPrabhu
use-case: I have a lot of photos on Google's services which I want to move. Wondering whether to have own storage space somehow or use Dropbox
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gRegor`
I don't really consider S3 a silo, anymore than Dreamhost or another host.
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gRegor`
Not sure about Dropbox. There are privacy / political objections to Dropbox, certainly.
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bret
!tell tantek I'll probably work on a userspace version during writing hour
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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bret
KartikPrabhu the better question is: do you own your data that you put there?
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bret.io
edited /events/2014-06-18-homebrew-website-club (+15) "/* RSVP */ interested in writing hour"
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bret
aaronpk is that okay? ^^
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KartikPrabhu
bret: yes that would be the question :)
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bret
KartikPrabhu i would think mostly righht?
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bret
you might encrypt it if you dont want people peeking at it
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KartikPrabhu
I don't know. dropbox doesn't look different from Google Albums or soemthing. But it might differ in the EULA which I haven't read
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bret
KartikPrabhu seen this? http://tosdr.org/
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aaronpk
KartikPrabhu: as long as you can get the data out the same way you put it in it's fine. it's more a question of how easy is it to replace one service with another.
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aaronpk
also do I need to know that you're using a service in order to interact with your data there
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KartikPrabhu
I basically want to use it to store photos which I can then insert into posts on my site
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aaronpk
if you want to be really safe about it, you could create local URLs on your domain that redirect to the S3 version. that way if you want to replace S3 later you don't have to change your URLs
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KartikPrabhu
bret: thanks for that link :)
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KartikPrabhu
aaronpk: oo nice idea!
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KartikPrabhu
bret: quite amusing to read criticism of Google's TOS on that site while the "Discussion" page is on Google Groups :P
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bret
lol yuuuup, its the world we live in
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bret
although google's data scooping isnt a huge bother to me as much as other things
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gRegor`
snarfed: Does bridgy only watch for interactions back to a certain point? I received a FB like from a May 1 post today, but not one on a January 8 post. They were both liked by the same person within a minute or two of each other, too.
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bret
aaronpk is it okay to come early to esri today?
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bret
just to work, not distract you
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aaronpk
bret: I'll likely be in meetings and such until 5 but yeah you can grab a desk to work on
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bret
I would probrably get there like at 5:15ish
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aaronpk
no problem
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snarfed
gRegor`: yes, it goes back a ways, but not indefinitely far
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snarfed
you can send a webmention for the jan 8 one yourself if you want. you have to construct the source url manually, but it's doable
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aaronpk
snarfed: i would love to see a page explaining the URL structure, I'd do manual webmentions to myself more often if I knew how to construct those URLs
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snarfed
aaronpk: sure! added to my todo list. tantek asked about how far back it looks yesterday too, so there's clearly interest
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gRegor`
snarfed: construct the brid.gy source URL?
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snarfed
yeah. e.g. https://www.brid.gy/like/twitter/schnarfed/446689402916315136/139199211 is a favorite for schnarfed's tweet id 446689402916315136 by user id 139199211
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snarfed
i'll ping you all once i've updated https://www.brid.gy/about with details
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gRegor`
Got it. I'm figuring out the FB one currently.
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snarfed
url structures differ by type (comment, like, etc) but not by silo, so a fb like will work the same way
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snarfed
/like/facebook/[user id]/[post id]/[liker user id]
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gRegor`
Eenteresting. So brid.gy is parsing the like/comment on demand when I manually create the URL (for the first time)?
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snarfed
sadly it does it *every* time, not just the first time
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aaronpk
nodb ftw!
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snarfed
fixing that is https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/15 , but it's never become a priority
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gRegor`
Ohhh
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Loqi
tantek: bret left you a message 55 minutes ago: making some notes on how to recategorize the projects into something more useful
#
Loqi
tantek: bret left you a message 52 minutes ago: I'll probably work on a userspace version during writing hour
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bret
also including things that really should be in that list
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gRegor`
That explains why re-processing a twitter comment pulled in an updated display name for a friend.
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gRegor`
★ The More You Know
#
tantek
gRegor`++
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tantek
bret - shall we work on some goals / criteria for the /projects page?
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aaronpk
yay the github is page is way better now https://github.com/indieweb
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bret
tantek yeah! generally I wanted to shift it away from a "what tools exist that can be used for indiewebbing" to "check out these community member projects which use x building blocks to do x"
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snarfed
gah. i'm so used to markdown now, i use it automatically even when i'm authoring a literal .html file. sigh.
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iamshane.com
edited /Homesteading (+68) "Added /weights to Post Types section"
(view diff)
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tantek
bret - what makes you want to make that be the focus?
#
tantek
for /projects that is
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tantek
snarfed, interesting. would a <markdown> element in HTML5 be useful? (for explicitly invoking a markdown processor)
#
bret
Because whenever I find myself showing someone indieweb stuff, I point them to a list of different websites that demonstrate the different directions and ideas people tend to be taking
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snarfed
tantek: i'd kill for that! i'd never choose to author in raw html over markdown if i didn't have to
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snarfed
seems like a long shot to get into the spec, but i'd love it
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tantek
snarfed, all it takes is a few interoperable implementations ;)
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snarfed
it'd probably be straightforward to polyfill, i'm sure there are js markdown implementations
#
tantek
bret - "different websites that demonstrate the different directions" sounds like a good reason to show people individual indieweb sites rather than projects
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barnabywalters
surely a standardised markdown would be a prerequisite for a <markdown> element in the HTML standard
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shaners
tantek: snarfed: Haml and some other template languages handle this by allowing a for a filter tag. you can then specify which filter to use. markdown, yaml, etc
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snarfed
barnabywalters: shh that way lie dragons
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barnabywalters
snarfed: exactly :/
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bret
tantek when I say projects that is basically what I mean, their websites in most cases
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tantek
my understanding of haml is that it is just as much mess as HTML without the ubiquity
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rascul
is there a wiki tag to include the dfn from another page?
#
tantek
bret - but websites != projects
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tantek
bret, you're talking about IndieWeb Examples
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tantek
of which there are plenty, per indieweb feature even
#
bret
I guess? i mean, falcon is your project, but I look at tantek.com for an example of that project
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bret
p3k is aaronpk's project, but I look at his website or caseorganic's website for an example
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shaners
i'm not a fan of haml. but i do like the way of being tell the parser as a human that i'm switching modes within a document
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tantek
I think it's good that each project list a few example deployments
#
tantek
however the focus should still be on the projects rather than the deployments
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rascul
makes more sense to me to have /projects be indieweb specific stuff, put the other stuff on another page
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tantek
snarfed, barnabywalters if/when I get around to switching to HTML+markdown for my storage files, I'll likely write up some sort of simplified minimal canonical version of markdown
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bret
tantek ya i agree, I think I was just not explaining it very well in IRC…. i want to list off the projects, and have that list containt people and example sites
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tantek
have already started documenting my thoughts on http://tantek.com/w/Markdown
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barnabywalters
tantek: in my experience 90% of my “usage” of markdown is paragraphs from line breaks
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barnabywalters
the rest is headers and links
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barnabywalters
headers are potentially quite easy to auto-detect
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tantek
interesting, I like markdown for lists
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tantek
the links format is crap. headers are meh.
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bret
tantek… community members over general tools, unless there is a reason to include a general tool other than noting its relation to a specific project
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barnabywalters
ah yeah, I sometimes use lists too
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barnabywalters
yep, links is horrible
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tantek
too much of markdown as people use it violate markdown's #1 design principle of "make it as readable as possible"
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rascul
if i can't easily read my markdown source then i'm unhappy
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rascul
same goes with any code or markup though
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bret
links are anying in markdown unless you are naming them, plain urls should be autolinked
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tantek
hence I tend to be skeptical of rabid markdown advocates who don't admit its (seemingly obvious) internal flaws up front.
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rascul
plain url linking depends on the implementation though
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bret
rascul it shouldnt
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tantek
hah, that's funny
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bret
when do you see plain urls and not want the option of clicking?
#
bret
or linking
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rascul
never
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tantek
bret, re: "community members over general tools" - so I think that's an important point.
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bret
i mean community member projects* just clarifying
#
tantek
perhaps we can use community adoption / day-to-day use as a filter / sorting of projects
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bret
ya i think that would be good
#
bret
simply moving experimental above production would be an improvement imo
#
bret
still, want to do more than just that
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bret
tantek differentiated cms like projects away from service hubs would also be nice I think
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bret
separate from*
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bret
ie taproot is different than webmention.io
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gRegor`
rascul: Do you mean a <dfn> from a redirect page?
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rascul
gRegor` no, i may not have explained it well
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tantek
bret - I'm thinking of getting rid of the experimental vs. production distinction completely
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bret
i agree
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rascul
i mean something like [dfn GitHub] to be replaced with the dfn from /GitHub
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tantek
because I'm not sure it's helping anyone any more
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gRegor`
Markdown inside a markup language seems ironic to me. ;)
#
tantek
it did originally but at this point many "experimental" projects are more useful/usable and advancing faster
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gRegor`
Oh, no support for that that I'm aware of, rascul.
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rascul
gRegor` i figured so, was just curious
#
tantek
I do want to prefer as you say "community member projects"
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rascul
likes community member projects
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gRegor`
Would take a custom mediawiki plugin I believe. or a template for every dfn
#
tantek
perhaps sorted by # of indieweb sites running them
#
bret
tantek i was also thinking of having a (Beautiful) Silos"
#
bret
section
#
tantek
and we put "WordPress" as a bookend
#
tantek
silos aren't projects
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bret
as a way to track open source silos that would be rad to get on board with webmention and uF2 stuf
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rascul
gRegor` eh that's way over my head, i just the other day figured out how to make a template for myself heh
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tantek
open sources silos? I don't think that means what you think it means. ;)
#
tantek
do you mean open source monocultures?
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rascul
or more specifically, i just copied kylewm's template ;)
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gRegor`
Yeah, templates can be a beast
#
bret
tantek yeah… but i want to describe them in an encouraging way (you can still interop!) instead of discouraging (monoculte be damned!)
#
bret
monoculture*
#
bret
Or something like "These are open source [[monoculture]]
#
tantek
I'd put those on a separate page frankly
#
gRegor`
A custom plugin would probably be even more of a beast, since you'd need to set up a mediawiki install to test it. And then there's the fact that the IWC mediawiki is older and needs to be updated. And so on. :)
#
gRegor`
ben_thatmustbeme: Was it you that was working on updating the mediawiki install?
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bret
are you a developer or user of these? You can help bring these projects forward by interoping with the indieweb"
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tantek
can you give me a concrete example of one that would work?
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rascul
gRegor` openshift makes mediawiki installs easy :)
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tantek
bret - most of those seem to just die off if we just ignore them long enough.
#
tantek
and people leave them disillusioned and determined to work on something more interoperable
#
bret
tantek IE pump.io or ghost… both could easily interop if there was interest from their community
#
tantek
pump.io does have interest - evanpro has expressed it!
#
tantek
he's just waiting for pull requests AFAIK
#
tantek
ghost OTOH has rejected pull requests
#
tantek
so I'd put those in different categories
#
gRegor`
I have a friend running ghost that when he saw webmentions said "Great! Now learn Ghost and make a plugin for it." Heh
#
bret
ghost is like wordpress basically, if we had someone interested in making that happen it could
#
tantek
and then there's tent.io which has frustrated enough people already that they've showed up here instead.
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rascul
i've never used ghost but i understand it's pretty good, i thought i saw mention of someone attempting indieweb stuff with it
#
bret
tantek pump is focusing on posse right now
#
bret
instead of indieweb comments
#
tantek
bret - I agree with that focus and prioritization!
#
tantek
as does IndieMark :)
#
bret
im just bitter my pr just sits there: https://github.com/e14n/pump.io/pull/871 >:p
#
bret
evan has kids though i understand
#
tantek
bret, can you document that issue on http://indiewebcamp.com/pump.io ?
#
tantek
specifically how long the PR has been outstanding (since when)
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rascul
i had looked briefly at pump awhile back
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bret.io
edited /pump.io (+86) "added PR reference"
(view diff)
#
bret
i know node a lot better
#
bret
maybe if I got webmentions working the PR would be more attractive
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bret
ok i gotta go back to work… ill ping with you what I come up with at writing hour
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bret
tantek^^
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tantek
bret - I'm going to start incrementally making changes to /projects
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bret
ah ok
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tantek
I'll document my work / thinking outloud here in the channel as I do so
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tantek
so you (or anyone) can yell stop or suggest better ideas
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bret
sounds good
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tantek
the basic goal is to make the site more usable for people visiting it from the home page
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tantek
er, make the projects *page* more usable
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tantek
for people coming and hoping to find projects that will help them get onto the indieweb
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bret
i want it to be like a tour of the indieweb
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bret
through its projects
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tantek
I don't think a tour is the right goal for /projects
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tantek
that's fine for the *examples* underneath each project
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tantek
like that's a good criteria for a focused set of smaller examples
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tantek
that each "example" listed inline below a project should be "tour-worthy"
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tantek
but IMO top goal for /projects should be "what can I setup right now to get on the indieweb?" with a preference for indieweb community projects.
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tantek
so that we basically make /projects a competition for most usable / useful indieweb project
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tantek
measured by # of indieweb sites actively using it
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tantek
(I think Known/idno would be first btw, followed by p3k right now, then all of our single-user selfdogfood projects, then WordPress as the bookend)
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tantek
I'd rank the single-user selfdogfood projects by indiemark level btw
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bret
publify has quite a few users, not nessisarily all apart of the iwc community
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bret
iirc
tilgovi and KevinMarks joined the channel
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tantek
bret - if they're not part of the community it's unlikely the project will keep up with indieweb advances in UX, protocols, formats
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tantek.com
edited /code (+290) "add rascul, add uses phrasing, note unknown "since" dates"
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tantek.com
edited /code (+9) "/* See Also */ see also git"
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rascul
whoa that scared me for a minute, i was in the middle of editing a page and thought i accidentally hit submit!
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rascul
Loqi highlighting my name i mean heh
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bret
neuro` was around quite a bit
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tantek.com
edited /code (+23) "/* Aaron Parecki */ since ????, bullets"
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tantek.com
edited /git (+51) "code, indepedence"
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tantek
rascul - heh - sorry about that!
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tantek
rascul - ok I'm done touching the code / git related pages for now - go for it
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tantek
is off to start incrementally hacking on /projects
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championix.com
edited /2014/Guest_List (+410) "Adding self."
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@Xangis
Indie Web Camp 2014, June 28-29 in PDX and NYC: http://indiewebcamp.com/2014 #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/479369500135915520)
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tantek.com
edited /projects (+1565) "in transition heads up banner, About This Page"
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tantek.com
edited /pump.io (+212) "explicitly create Issues section with Unknown Delay Adopting IndieWeb Standards"
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tantek.com
edited /projects (+136) "/* See Also */ add GS, IndieMark, PHP and Ruby"
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tantek.com
edited /projects (+290) "start the new page above the old page, document progress as we go. Get on the IndieWeb with Known or p3k"
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tantek
ok that's a start.
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tantek
!tell bnvk take a look at http://indiewebcamp.com/projects when you get a chance, I've started switching it over, and captured our dialog/thinking on transition here: http://indiewebcamp.com/projects#About_This_Page
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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tantek
oops wrong person
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tantek
!tell bret take a look at http://indiewebcamp.com/projects when you get a chance, I've started switching it over, and captured our dialog/thinking on transition here: http://indiewebcamp.com/projects#About_This_Page
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek
!tell bvnk nevermind that was meant for bret.
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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rascul.io
edited /git (+1225) "List more software and provide brief descriptions about the software, separate the lists a little bit, add posse note"
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rascul
tantek how does that look?
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rascul
i guess he didn't want to tell me
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Loqi
bnvk: tantek left you a message 4 hours, 56 minutes ago: why do you want a repo on github.com/indieweb for "store" before it is shown to be working in some capacity on your own site?
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Loqi
bnvk: tantek left you a message 11 minutes ago: take a look at http://indiewebcamp.com/projects when you get a chance, I've started switching it over, and captured our dialog/thinking on transition here: http://indiewebcamp.com/projects#About_This_Page
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snarfed
!tell gRegor`, aaronpk ask and ye shall receive: https://www.brid.gy/about#source-urls . also more details about how far bridgy looks back in time at the bottom of https://www.brid.gy/about#missing
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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GWG
!tell barnabywalters I have the translation you asked for.
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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aaronpk
snarfed: YAY awesome
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Loqi
aaronpk: snarfed left you a message 11 minutes ago: ask and ye shall receive: https://www.brid.gy/about#source-urls . also more details about how far bridgy looks back in time at the bottom of https://www.brid.gy/about#missing
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snarfed
aaronpk: geobin.io?
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aaronpk
what how'd you find out about that :P
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snarfed
(or shh is it a secret)
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snarfed
github rss feed
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aaronpk
we're about to launch it
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snarfed
cool! break a leg
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bret
lol geobin is 404ing but its still in my feed as "aaronpk open sourced..."
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bret
the repo that is
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Loqi
bret: tantek left you a message 53 minutes ago: take a look at http://indiewebcamp.com/projects when you get a chance, I've started switching it over, and captured our dialog/thinking on transition here: http://indiewebcamp.com/projects#About_This_Page
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bret
oh cool
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Loqi
basal: kylewm left you a message 5 days, 4 hours ago: re: upcoming meetups in the bay area http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-06-18-homebrew-website-club
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aaronpk
oh it's complicated. moving repos between private/public orgs and screwing with the forks
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bret.io
edited /projects (+396) "/* About This Page */"
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aaronpk
having p3k in the "get on the indieweb" section is a little disingenuous, since it would take a lot of work to actually use p3k right now including reading under-documented repos
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bret
What about Indieweb projects?
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aaronpk
it should probably go wherever Falcon is listed
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aaronpk
it would be nice if I packaged it up a little better so you could install it easily but that is a long ways out
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aaronpk
also is not a priority of mine, I'd rather publish useful libraries that others can use
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Loqi
gRegor`: snarfed left you a message 1 hour, 9 minutes ago: ask and ye shall receive: https://www.brid.gy/about#source-urls . also more details about how far bridgy looks back in time at the bottom of https://www.brid.gy/about#missing
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gRegor`
Chicago Coffeebrew Website Club is in effect.
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gRegor`
Er, Homebrew.
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bret
you funnyman
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bret
who made it?
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snarfed
go chicago!
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gRegor`
Intelligentsia coffee
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gRegor`
Still just the two of us, but we'll reach critical mass one day!
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KartikPrabhu
people! need a good word for "comments on a part of a post" like Medium's 'annotations' but not that... :P
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snarfed.org
edited /projects (+1030) "/* production */ add wp.com, blogger, tumblr"
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Loqi
move apache and nginx down since they're much lower level
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snarfed
KartikPrabhu: why not annotations? it is the right word, after all
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KartikPrabhu
Not really. Annotations could also mean "notes that you have written on your copy of my article"
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KartikPrabhu
errr... maybe I just don't like it, which would make it my problem :P
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snarfed
eh, i guess. i'll slowly back away from the semantics debate :P
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snarfed
yeah, i suspected the latter. language is a tool, not territory. no sense in discarding words just because people we may not like use them
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KartikPrabhu
is very tempted to be pedantic and use "scholia" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scholia) instead of annotations :P
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snarfed
great if your goal is playing with words
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snarfed
not so great if your goal communicating :P
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snarfed.org
edited /projects (+1) "move p3k to the same section as falcon, since aaronpk said that's where it should go: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-06-18/line/1403130646"
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snarfed.org
edited /projects (+0) "/* production */ move wp.com/blogger/tumblr down a bit since they're not as indieweb-specific"
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gRegor`
"indietations" KartikPrabhu, snarfed
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KartikPrabhu
is temporarily using "marginalia"
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bret
margin notes
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bret
m-note