#indiewebcamp 2014-06-18

2014-06-18 UTC
bnvk, KevinMarks, scor, lukebrooker, vanderwal, fmarier, paulcp, chrissaad, wolftune, shaners, grantmacken, j12t, dybskiy, snarfed and lukebrooker_ joined the channel
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@kevinmarks “Without blinking an eye, Facebook went from homegrown, underground, exclusive social network to Coca-Cola” http://techcrunch.com/2014/06/17/facebook-snapchat-slingshot/ #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/479112487304826880)
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GWG I have returned
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GWG Ooops.
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gRegor` /clear
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@jasongreen Smallest Federated Wiki needs web-signin/relmeauth/indieauth support. (twitter.com/_/status/479136780608761856)
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@yatil @gerritvanaaken Ja, das ist echt krass, wo wir doch jetzt Webmentions haben ;-) (twitter.com/_/status/479165519212605440)
jsilvestre, LauraJ, Sebastien-L, wtd, krendil, glennjones, nloadholtes, barnabywalters, danfowler, pfefferle, adactio, bnvk, icco, scor, chloeweil, vanderwal, chloeweil_, wolftune, eschnou, snarfed, brianloveswords and gRegor` joined the channel
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gRegor` barnabywalters: submitted a pr for php-mf2
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barnabywalters gRegor`: just looking over it now!
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gRegor` cool :)
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GWG Good morning
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barnabywalters gRegor`: so IMO your approach to fixing the problem given is unnecessarily complex, but it does raise some valid points and issues which were previously hidden!
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barnabywalters the space prefixing was there to prevent matches from inside property names, e.g. p-like-of contains both p- and e-
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gRegor` I didn't exhaustively go through the code, honestly. That was the first place I saw to fix it.
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barnabywalters so actually using stripos is a better function there
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barnabywalters and also those functions handle mixed whitespace (lots of spaces, tabs, newlines) very badly, so I’m improving that
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gRegor` brb
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barnabywalters tbh I’m not even sure the matching should be case insensitive
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GWG barnabywalters: Can I ask you a question?
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barnabywalters probably not, according to the microformats spec
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gRegor` Should I fix it in another function - higher up in the process?
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barnabywalters GWG: always — just ask, don’t ask to ask :)
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kylewm.com edited /2014/Guest_List (+249) "/* West */ added m'self :)" (view diff)
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gRegor` Or is it the strtolower that is too complex?
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GWG barnabywalters: http://david.shanske.com/notes/2014/06/16/library-waives-7600-fee-book-91-year-old-man-returned-61-years-late/
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gRegor` Yay, kylewm!
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barnabywalters gRegor`: specifically I was referring to the extra, unnecessary variables — working on it now as there’s actually a whole bunch of fixes which need doing, but I’ve merged your test — super helpful!
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kylewm Yay!
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Loqi woot
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GWG barnabywalters: I had some trouble with the markup on the new response box
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gRegor` Ah, ok. If I need o re-use a concatenated value more than once I usually make a variable for it. :)
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gRegor` s/o re/to re/
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Loqi gRegor` meant to say: Ah, ok. If I need to re-use a concatenated value more than once I usually make a variable for it. :)
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GWG The grey box is part of a plugin and adds the information to the content, therefore I think I'm making a markup mess
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GWG gRegor`: By the way, saw you moved the page.
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barnabywalters GWG: looks like a perfectly good h-cite to me, although typically you’ll want to define the url, name and content properties specifically rather than letting them be implied
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barnabywalters also consider whether or not you really want the reply context inside the e-content
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GWG barnabywalters: That is...something of a problem
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barnabywalters as consumers should detect a in-reply-to h-cite and display it separately
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GWG barnabywalters: The code dynamically inserts the reply context into the content. In order to display it elsewhere, I'd need the Wordpress theme to support it.
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GWG I intend to make mine support a location outside the content box...but to make it universal, I need to support inside and outside
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GWG barnabywalters: The reason I'm asking is that. How will that affect consumers of the content, for anyone who doesn't customize the position?
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barnabywalters GWG: basically it will mean that consumers which correclty parse and display reply contexts will show the reply context twice, once as a reply context and once when displaying the content
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GWG Ok
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@kyle_wm Signed up for #IndieWebCamp PDX 6/28-29! Starting to think abt session topics...python tooling, lowering the barrier to entry, and diversity (twitter.com/_/status/479271716380635136)
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GWG kylewm: West is winning.
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GWG barnabywalters: I guess it is what it is. How do you mark up the 'verb' though? The human readable "In Reply To"?
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GWG It's a heading, but the parser sees it otherwise?
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GWG Hmm...this may be my biggest Facepile yet. Great for testing... http://david.shanske.com/notes/2014/06/18/evening/
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barnabywalters GWG: no need to add any microformats to the “in reply to”
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GWG barnabywalters: I was trying to figure out how to exclude it
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barnabywalters GWG: generally it’s not a great idea to put any content with a lot of custom styling applied to it in e-content
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barnabywalters since consumers typically have to strip out CSS for safety and consistency
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GWG barnabywalters: Should have that problem licked in a few days. It will be the same output code, but different positioning.
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barnabywalters basically a good test is to look at it with CSS disabled, and if anything looks “off” it probably shouldn’t be in e-content, or should be restructured
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barnabywalters e.g. raw text quoted as a reply context should at least be in a <blockquote>
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barnabywalters that way the consumer has some level of understanding of how to display it
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GWG barnabywalters: I thought I did. Must have been one of the other two display cases
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GWG I had three.
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GWG URL, Title and Quote. URL and Quote but no Title, Title and Quote but no URL.
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gRegor` barnabywalters: So I can understand better, what's the reason class names should be case-sensitive?
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barnabywalters gRegor`: classname matching behaviour in browsers is to treat them as case-sensitive, so to minimise confusion by maximising consistency, microformats parsers should work the same way
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gRegor` Gotcha
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barnabywalters gRegor`: thanks for bringing this to my attention, it probably would never have been fixed otherwise :)
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barnabywalters I think now enough fixes have accumulated for a new php-mf2 version
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gRegor` You're welcome. I'm enjoying digging into this more, and getting used to github.
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rascul ooo i never knew class names were case sensitive
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barnabywalters gRegor`: you an me both, this is the first time I’ve ever had to review and manually merge pull requests for a piece of software people actually rely on
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gRegor` rascul: Yep, it can be a major pain if you work with people that sometimes camelCaseClassNames
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rascul mine are always lowercase
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gRegor` Same. And I'm moving from using underscores to using hyphens lately.
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barnabywalters hyphens all the way!
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rascul in some languages hypens can be a problem
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rascul foo-bar == foo - bar
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barnabywalters yeah they should almost never be used in identifiers in languages
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rascul i have merged notes and articles into the same thing for my site
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rascul because i feel like writing an article is more work than writing a long note with a title heh
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luxagraf aaronpk: so stumbled across this over the weekend, https://github.com/i-a/i-a.github.io which sounds great, but is it still an active project?
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aaronpk luxagraf: it's more of a design guideline right now rather than an actual project
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barnabywalters luxagraf: a few of us are building up archives of everything we link to, but we’ve not published them anywhere or combined them yet
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luxagraf aaronpk: okay, i was building a little crawler to backup my bookmarks so I thought I'd see what others were doing
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luxagraf and that got me thinking that I should parse and backup everything i link to.
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jonnybarnes when it works ZNC is quite cool
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barnabywalters luxagraf: https://github.com/Taproot/archive is what I use, may be of interest
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luxagraf barnabywalters: yeah making things like that public has lots of potential problems. even if the original link dies unfortunately
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luxagraf barnabywalters: thanks, already read through your code :)
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barnabywalters luxagraf: yep, actually figuring out how to publish this stuff is something I have yet to figure out
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barnabywalters e.g. do I make a crawler which crawls my old notes for broken links and replaces them with links to the archived version?
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aaronpk yes!
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luxagraf it would be interesting to hear a legal professional weigh in on whether or not publishing something just to show what your repy is in reference to falls under a fair use provision
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aaronpk that's what I want to do
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barnabywalters luxagraf: pretty certain that actual reply contexts completely fall under fair use provisions
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barnabywalters especially for text — it’s effectively a quote and attribution
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barnabywalters photos, video, audio maybe a little more complex
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barnabywalters and maybe whole pages are considered a different thing
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luxagraf barnabywalters: I would think so to, but I've been continually surprised by what does not qualify as fair use.
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tantek luxagraf, see: http://indiewebcamp.com/IndieArchive
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luxagraf tantek: yeah, that's what got me thinking about this stuff
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barnabywalters the weird thing about fair use is that IIRC it’s proportional — you get to use a percentage of a work without violating it
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luxagraf well, that and the considerable number of my bookmarks/linked urls that now point to 404s
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barnabywalters but a note is so short that there’s a “fair use” proportion would be a couple of characters
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tantek I think there's a different provision for archival
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tantek that libraries etc. use
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tantek part of the point of maintaining a collective archive is that by the very nature of being collective (rather than individual) it looks/feels more like a public library
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tantek plus, once we get some critical mass, we hook it up to stream into archive.org
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luxagraf barnabywalters: one of my thoughts for deadlinks, was to change them to point to a plain text backup so that the barebones of the page would be there and there would be no doubt that i wasn't trying to duplicate the content
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tantek cool
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luxagraf tantek: that's why I asked aaronpk about https://github.com/i-a/i-a.github.io i was curious if people were making collectively backups.
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luxagraf tantek: I've got a crawler running now so if that ever happens, I'm happy to contribute
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barnabywalters luxagraf: that’s an interesting idea. another solution would be to upload the data to the Internet Archive and link to that copy
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tantek.com edited /IndieArchive (+347) "new section IndieWeb Examples with aaronpk and barnabywalters" (view diff)
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barnabywalters as they’re also more likely to have archived external resources, which I don’t do at the moment
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tantek luxagraf - that would be great
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tantek barnabywalters is right, if you can upload to the internet archive and have that work, go for it
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tantek IndieArchive was an attempt at doing something more efficient
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barnabywalters then the IA handle all the legal bother :)
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rascul barnabywalters also letting archive.org handle any legal issues could be a plus
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rascul heh barnabywalters won that round
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tantek sure, could even treat indiearchive as a cache of stuff submitted to archive.org
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tantek if anything on indiearchive gets any bother, simple take it down and point to archive.org instead
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tantek maybe even drop in redirects
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rascul there is a blue upload button in top right corner of archive.org
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tantek rascul - the point is to automate it
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rascul indeed
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tantek so that your publishing software captures archives of stuff just by you linking to it in your posts
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tantek and then stores it in github instead of your own local file system
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luxagraf Looks like Archive.org even has a nice JSON API https://archive.org/help/wayback_api.php
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luxagraf For querying anyway
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tantek how do they avoid people uploading a bunch of spam or garbage or bad data?
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tantek (which is what happened to Google Data when they tried this)
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gRegor` barnabywalters: Are there php-mf2 goals I can help work on, outside the issue tracker?
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rascul ftp upload but ftp can be scripted easily enough http://archive.org/help/contrib-advanced.php
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tantek yeah exactly
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tantek the point of the github IndieArchive is that since everything can be traced back to a github identity, there's a lot less incentive to burn an identifier with bad uploads
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barnabywalters gRegor`: php-mf2’s goals are 1) to be the reference implementation of the mf2 parsing spec and 2) to get people from zero to canonical microformat structures as fast as possible
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tantek excited for tonights four-city Homebrew Website Club meetup(s)!!!
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barnabywalters so if you can find a way to make it more spec-compliant, or to make it simpler, that’d be awesome. otherwise, time is better spent on the wider microformats/indieweb ecosystem
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barnabywalters e.g. making tools for actually consuming microformats2 data more easily
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gRegor` ok
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luxagraf rascul: fyi, i get a 404 for your about page
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rascul yeah i haven't made it yet
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rascul see my note about expecting things to be broken :)
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@indiewebcamp RT @BarnabyWalters: Released php-mf2 v0.2.7 with contributions from @aaronpk and @gregorlove — some small new features a… http://t.co/ysswf… (twitter.com/_/status/479288665894449152)
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tantek does anyone else here besides tommorris have their own wiki on their own domain?
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aaronpk caseorganic does!
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tantek also with MediaWiki right?
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aaronpk yep
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aaronpk I used to, but ended up merging it with my site
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barnabywalters briansuda has one but pretty sure all the pages are private
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tantek just found a bug in caseorganic.com/about and is wondering if he can fix it.
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aaronpk oh yeah I had a private wiki too but took it down a while ago in favor of my dropbox folder of text files
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barnabywalters aaronpk: I tried setting up a private wiki but got bored so use a git-managed dropbox folder of text files :)
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aaronpk text files ftw
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tantek aaronpk - I remember there used to be a way to sign-in with Twitter to caseorganic's wiki and edit it
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tantek is that gone?
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rascul i wouldn't know what to use a private wiki for, everything i would put there i already have a more preferred method of storing
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barnabywalters SFW is much closer to text files in terms of complexity than mediawiki
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aaronpk tantek: replaced by indieauth
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caseorganic tantek: yes, it's gone. i liked that though!
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tantek aaronpk - "replaced" implies there's still some way to edit?
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aaronpk caseorganic.com/about is not on her wiki tho
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tantek it's not?
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aaronpk that's just her regular site
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tantek what is? /pages?
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tantek caseorganic - I've signed in with indieauth and don't see a edit button
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tantek caseorganic: bugfix for /about :
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aaronpk the mediawiki install is only under /wiki/
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tantek s/Case founded IndieWebCamp with Tantek Çelik and Aaron Parecki in 2010/Case founded IndieWebCamp with Tantek Çelik, Aaron Parecki, and Crystal Beasley in 2011
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tantek (two instances)
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tantek aaronpk, heh, http://caseorganic.com/wiki is a 404, while http://caseorganic.com/wiki/ works
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aaronpk url routing is hard :P
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tantek aaronpk: true!
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tantek hello glennjones!
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glennjones hi tantek
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tantek love this: "You are reading the external memory prosthetic of Amber Case. " - http://caseorganic.com/wiki/Main_Page
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tantek aaronpk, interesting that caseorganic.com and caseorganic.com/wiki/ have different login cookies
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barnabywalters gRegor`: actually, if you want to do *super* helpful work on php-mf2, hooking it up to https://github.com/tobiastom/tests would be *awesome*
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barnabywalters I’ve been meaning to do so for a while but the current test suite works adequately and therefore is not at the top of my priority list to improve
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tantek.com edited /wiki (+87) "/* Page type */ examples, caseorganic" (view diff)
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gRegor` Not sure what that entails, barnabywalters. Might be out of my league.
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tantek so only tommorris and caseorganic have wiki pages on their own domains then?
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barnabywalters gRegor`: basically an automated test suite where instead of manually writing a test for each case, a script is run which loops over all the test cases in that repo, runs them through php-mf2 and compares the output with the expected output
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gRegor` Using PHPunit?
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barnabywalters gRegor`: PHPUnit could be used, but it’s real advantages are for manually written test cases with complex behaviour
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barnabywalters this would literally be a script which loops over some folders, calling a function for each one and noting whether or not the output matches the contents of a file
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barnabywalters gRegor`: we should move this php-mf2-specific discussion to #microformats
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gRegor` Ah, calling parse() on every input.html file? I think I'm seeing.
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tantek.com edited /wiki-page (+924) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ subsections, add caseorganic, evidence of since dates, IndieWeb partials, having a redirect" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /wiki-page (+38) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ both use MediaWiki" (view diff)
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tantek caseorganic, congrats on having your own wiki on your site since 2011-07-01! First of us to do so.
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jonnybarnes so im trying to get photos on my notes, and someones going to say you shouldn't use MySQL in the first place, but I'm thinking that jonnybarnes.net/note/22 should have the image at jonnybarnes.net/assets/img/notes/22
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caseorganic tantek: really? i didn't know i was the first. it's been wonderful to have it
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tantek ariel was just asking about indieweb wikis
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jonnybarnes im also thinking of doing the same as you guys and moving my URLs to jonnybarnes.net/notes/{nb60 encoding of id}
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tantek jonnybarnes: what's the "id" from?
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jonnybarnes the id value is from the id column of my notes table in the MySQL db
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tantek bnvk, aaronpk about an indiestore repo - why repo before seeing it actually live on someone's personal site?
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jonnybarnes the id is set to auto_increment
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tantek or rather, why not keep it in your own repo until you have something deployed, which someone else could redeploy on their own, and then and only then put it into a "central" or "shared" repo?
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tantek ewwww re: id from MySQL
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aaronpk I would tend to agree
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aaronpk related, I'm thinking about cleaning up the indieweb github
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tantek aaronpk - that sounds good
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barnabywalters aaronpk: it needs it, there’s a bunch of unmaintained repos on there
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tantek related, I saw somethinga about cleaning up /projects
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barnabywalters tantek: IIRC that was bret?
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tantek barnabywalters: agreed. we need to have an active selfdogfood requirement for everything on the indieweb github
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aaronpk jonnybarnes: re img URLs they should probably end in .jpg or .png for readability
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tantek maybe we need a pledging process or something
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aaronpk pledging?
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tantek where people pledge a project for the indieweb github
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tantek and then during the pledging period, the community evaluates whether the project is worthy of the repo
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tantek i.e. does it exemplify indieweb principles
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tantek for the duration of the pleding period
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tantek s/pleding/pledging
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Loqi tantek meant to say: for the duration of the pledging period
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barnabywalters not sure what the indiewebcamp organisation is even for
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tantek barnabywalters: perhaps file an issue asking that ;)
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barnabywalters is it a good idea for it to fork existing projects? what does that achieve?
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tantek bret - how did you want to clean up /projects ?
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barnabywalters it’s only really historical accident that php-mf2 is under that organisation
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aaronpk I don't think it's a good idea to fork existing projects. that's what the /projects page is for
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tantek barnabywalters: I think it's a good place for project maintainers to put projects they want to share ownership of
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tantek as you did with php-mf2
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jonnybarnes aaronpk: yeah, probably
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jonnybarnes aaronpk: just need to work out how to do both in the code
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aaronpk i believe the initial idea was that forking a project was a way to distribute it, treating the indieweb github page as a list of "featured" projects
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barnabywalters tantek: yep, makes sense to *move* things there permanently. at the mo IIRC there are some random forks of projects for no reason
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tantek aaronpk - makes sense
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tantek hence the pledging thing
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tantek idea
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jonnybarnes i.e. make sure I have <img src="....png"> its a png file
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tantek !tell bret how did you want to clean up /projects ? I want to help with that too.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk re: github, i'm tempted to get rid of everything that hasn't been updated in 2013 or 2014
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rascul /projects seems to me like it should be indieweb stuff that indieweb people created
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tantek rascul - or are actively using on their own domains
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tantek I think it is good to encourage re-use
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rascul yeah i was going to append or indieweb methods of implementation of other projects
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tantek e.g. WordPress belongs on their IMO
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tantek s/their/there
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Loqi tantek meant to say: e.g. WordPress belongs on there IMO
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tantek I think /projects should be a real world / selfdogfood filtered view of such projects
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aaronpk actualy it's probably completely safe to delete any forks on the indieweb org that haven't been updated in 2yrs
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tantek takes a look at https://github.com/indieweb/
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aaronpk https://github.com/indieweb?query=+only%3Aforks+
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tantek barnabywalters: what's the status of https://github.com/indieweb/own-your-comments ?
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barnabywalters tantek: unmaintained shell, can be deleted freely
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tantek sgtm
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rascul hrm am i a creator? pretty sure i am in the context of indieweb, i just want to verify
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tantek barnabywalters: you also added https://github.com/indieweb/salmon-php - which AFAIK, *no-one* uses here
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tantek rascul see /creator
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tantek barnabywalters: perhaps take https://github.com/indieweb/salmon-php into your own gh account ? I think we should delete it from github.com/indieweb
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rascul i'm reading it, it looks like i meet all the criteria - i use https://rascul.io for primary identity now, i wrote the code and design and it's all open source
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barnabywalters based on https://packagist.org/packages/indieweb/salmon it’s been installed 13 times, but nothing recent — those were probably me testing
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barnabywalters yup, that one’s best moved to my own account
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tantek rascul - congrats! :)
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tantek barnabywalters: same thing with https://github.com/indieweb/push - move to your own account, and let's delete from github.com/indieweb
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tantek there clearly hasn't been a big push for PuSH here
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tantek (sorry #sorrynotsorry)
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barnabywalters tantek: done
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tantek barnabywalters: same with https://github.com/indieweb/php-truncenator
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aaronpk :( I like the idea of PuSH but it isn't really a priority for me until I have a solid reader setup
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barnabywalters tantek: hopefully feed reader work will change that :)
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tantek aaronpk, barnabywalters exactly. when we cross that bridge then we can put something up there accordingly.
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barnabywalters I’m currently publishing PuSH 0.4 notifications for my homepage feed
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tantek is anyone else using https://github.com/indieweb/IndieWeb-Reply-Browser-Extension ? I REALLY like the idea, and seamless reply UI is a key focus for competitive indieweb UI
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tantek (anyone else besides aaronpk - assuming aaronpk is still using it!)
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aaronpk (it was a fork of https://github.com/aaronpk/IndieWeb-Reply-Browser-Extension so I deleted the indieweb version)
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aaronpk and actually I'm not still using it cause I never actually installed it on my new computer
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aaronpk i've been using bookmarklet buttons instead
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tantek aaronpk whoa, that's too bad
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tantek interesting - do you have the bookmarkelt buttons documented somewhere?
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tantek perhaps on /webactions ?
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tantek anyone know brolund?
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aaronpk it does mean one extra click to reply to a tweet cause i have to first go to the tweet permalink page, can't just reply from within the stream
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barnabywalters aaronpk: you don’t have webaction toolbelt installed?
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aaronpk no :/ it makes things kind of ugly
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barnabywalters that is an issue which has been raised before
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tantek barnabywalters: ugly UI is a blocker
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barnabywalters I want to fix it but it’s waaay down on my list of things to do
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barnabywalters pull requests/design work *hugely* appreciated
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tantek so no one here uses unhosted AFAIK, and there's no evidence of selfdogfood of it either so let's delete https://github.com/indieweb/friendsunhosted
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gRegor` perks up about UI
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tantek not even sure how that got on there/
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jonnybarnes barnabywalters: the github link on this: http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4WeFif/ isnt actually a link to github
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aaronpk tantek: the remaining 3 forks are from the initial creation of the indieweb org which was more like a project gallery
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aaronpk i'll delete them cause they're all forks and not canonical repos
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barnabywalters jonnybarnes: fixed! thanks for spotting that
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tantek aaronpk I'm just going through them one at a time to review them for the record
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tantek in case someone comes by later and asks
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aaronpk ok good thinking
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jonnybarnes barnabywalters: jesus that was quick
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tantek at least capturing some reasoning
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barnabywalters jonnybarnes: not bad considering I don’t even have an “edit” button :)
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tantek we need to be pretty harsh about rejecting vapor / non-selfdogfood
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rascul hates vaporware
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tantek !tell bnvk why do you want a repo on github.com/indieweb for "store" before it is shown to be working in some capacity on your own site?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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tantek problem with being a "gallery" is that it dilutes the stuff that is actually real world that indieweb community folks are using / depending on on a daily basis
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aaronpk agreed
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tantek aaronpk - I can't get to page 2 of github.com/indieweb repos because maybe you already deleted them? :/
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aaronpk deleting https://github.com/indieweb/libreprojects because the fork was last updated in 2012 and the canonical version was updated in march
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tantek I have no idea what came after friendsunhosted
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aaronpk tantek: yeah and barnaby deleted his too, just refresh to get a new page list
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gRegor` barnabywalters: the UI work you were soliciting is for webaction toolbelt, right?
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barnabywalters gRegor`: yup, the buttons are ugly
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barnabywalters particularly the ones which get injected into twitter.com, as they don’t fit in at all
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aaronpk also deleting https://github.com/indieweb/helloworld because the fork was last updated in 2012 and the canonical was updated a few months ago
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tantek !tell jancborchardt looks like you added https://github.com/indieweb/libreprojects in 2012 and it appears to not be maintained at all - it's just a directory of other projects right? not sure that makes sense in the indieweb repo (i.e. it's not something you can install to help get on the indieweb)
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk tantek: see my note about that above
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tantek aaronpk - yup, just wanted to try to give jancborchardt a heads-up directly since he appears to be in the channel
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aaronpk no harm done by deleting the fork since he's continued to maintain his canonical repo
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tantek also the reasoning in particular about being a directory rather than an installable project
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rascul it seems strange to me, using github for indieweb stuff
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tantek rascul - do you have a git install on your own domain?
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rascul yes
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rascul gitolite and cgit
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barnabywalters rascul: not everyone does, e.g. cweiske has done a bunch of work on self-hosted git
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rascul http://git.rascul.io
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barnabywalters it’s more of a commons than a silo though due to it’s decentralised nature — only PRs and issues are siloed
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tantek what software is running that?
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rascul anything i have on github is somewhere else first
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rascul tantek the web interface is cgit
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rascul gitolite runs the backend
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rascul http://git.zx2c4.com/cgit/ and http://gitolite.com/
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KartikPrabhu rascul: I'd like to self-host code too. probably others also... any documentation on how you do it would be sweet! :)
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tantek fascinating
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rascul i guess i could write something up in the wiki
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aaronpk rascul++ for documenting his git setup!
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Loqi rascul has 5 karma
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KartikPrabhu rascul++
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Loqi rascul has 6 karma
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rascul go me!
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aaronpk (I just use gitlab cause it bundles it all in one go)
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rascul yeah gitlab is nifty, too heavy for what i was looking for though
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aaronpk i can see that
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rascul might be good for git.indiewebcamp.com though :)
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aaronpk not til there's an indieauth plugin for gitlab :)
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KartikPrabhu i once thought of self-hosting git and then using webmentions for PR and issues but never got around to building that... so it is all fufu at this point
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rascul ahh good point
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barnabywalters KartikPrabhu: fufu? future?
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tantek.com edited /git (+476) "software, silos, see also, lots of links" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu fufu = fluff :P
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tantek rascul - want to take a crack at creating the pages linked from http://indiewebcamp.com/git ?
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tantek bbiab
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rascul stuff i make will go into git repos of mine in various locations, github is always the last place to push to
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rascul tantek i shall shortly
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KartikPrabhu me is off to do physics stuff. gregor`: HWC is still on in this beautiful thunderstorm yes?
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gRegor` I think cweiske tracks his own code and POSSEs to github.
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gRegor` KartikPrabhu: Yep
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KartikPrabhu cool...
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tantek.com edited /GitHub (-13) "/* Self-hosted alternatives */ see main, link to local pages instead of URLs" (view diff)
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luxagraf rascul: do you have your host repos push on to github with a post commit hook or something?
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luxagraf I host all my own code and experimented with doing that, but i never got the push to github part automated.
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aaronpk is running such an old version of gitlab tho and it's a PITA to upgrade :(
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jonnybarnes a step closer with my server's IPv6 setup :)
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luxagraf aaronpk: i passed on gitlab for exactly that reason.
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aaronpk luxagraf: because it's in rapid development mode? (i.e. not stable?)
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luxagraf aaronpk: basically yes. it seems to love backwards-incompatible changes. not what i want in something that holds the primary source of everything i do.
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luxagraf aaronpk: and it needs the whole rails stack, which i otherwise have no use for
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aaronpk i'm wondering if it's a little more stable now. I installed at version 2 or something, back when each version was completely changing how system user accounts and git repos were stored on disk
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rascul luxagraf no, i just push master to github from time to time
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luxagraf aaronpk: could be. i know there's ubuntu/debian packages now, which makes it bit easier to install than when i tried.
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aaronpk oh neat
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aaronpk I wonder if it would run well on a $5/mo digitalocean or $10/mo linode
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rascul i have git repos in many different places, i should probably centralize those some time to rascul.io heh
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aaronpk or heck an amazon micro instance since it's easier to back those up
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rascul aaronpk digitalocean has a gitlab application one can spin up
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luxagraf aaronpk: https://www.digitalocean.com/community/tutorials/how-to-use-the-gitlab-one-click-install-image-to-manage-git-repositories
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aaronpk whoa didn't even realize digitalocean was doing one-click installs
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rascul it'll run fine on the $5 one as long as it isn't too heavily used probably
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rascul i messed with it briefly but i didn't try to put much load on it or anything
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luxagraf and for the record, i think rascul is right, hosting indieweb projects on github is, well, not selfdogfood
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rascul posse to github :)
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aaronpk github is a silo just like the other silos. it's not the end of the world to use it!
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luxagraf aaronpk: true and git repos are very portable, which is all the more reason to POSSE to it somehow
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rascul luxagraf a post commit hook to push to github is something i've been thinking about, i just haven't got around to doing it yet
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rascul.io edited /Bitbucket (+40) "Add link to bitbucket and dfn" (view diff)
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luxagraf I'm going to work on that at somet point, see if I can create a system and mirror a few things to github
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bret.io created /Template:bret (+134) "Created page with "<span class="h-card">{{sparkline|https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2926/14055807513_dea2b533b6_s.jpg}}[[User:Bret.io|Bret Comnes" target="_blank">User:Bret.io|Bret" target="_blank">https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2926/14055807513_dea2b533b6_s.jpg}}[[User:Bret.io|Bret Comnes]]</span>"" (view diff)
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bret.io edited /events/2014-06-18-homebrew-website-club (+11) "/* RSVP */" (view diff)
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gRegor` That thing where you spend 15 minutes wondering why str_replace("/r/n", '', $string) is not replacing the returns in a string . . .
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gRegor` Then realizing you used forward slashes instead of backslashes
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gRegor` needs more coffee
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bret computers--
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gRegor` coffee++
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Loqi coffee has 18 karma
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Loqi bret: tantek left you a message 2 hours, 8 minutes ago: how did you want to clean up /projects ? I want to help with that too.
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Loqi computers has -1 karma
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gRegor` Easy now. Those computers are my career. :)
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rascul gRegor` heh i was wondering what you had in the /r/n directory at first
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gRegor` Hehe
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rascul i didn't read it right without backslashes
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@muhh Die ganzen IndieWeb Plugins für Wordpress reizen mich ja am meisten. http://byzero.de/?p=31 (twitter.com/_/status/479332006283603969)
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Loqi [mention] http://byzero.de/2014/06/18/31/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/WordPress (webmention)
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bret !tell tantek, started making some notes on how to recategorize the projects into something more useful
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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KartikPrabhu is putting your data on S3 or dropbox considered silo-ing?
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KartikPrabhu use-case: I have a lot of photos on Google's services which I want to move. Wondering whether to have own storage space somehow or use Dropbox
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gRegor` I don't really consider S3 a silo, anymore than Dreamhost or another host.
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gRegor` Not sure about Dropbox. There are privacy / political objections to Dropbox, certainly.
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bret !tell tantek I'll probably work on a userspace version during writing hour
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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bret KartikPrabhu the better question is: do you own your data that you put there?
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bret.io edited /events/2014-06-18-homebrew-website-club (+15) "/* RSVP */ interested in writing hour" (view diff)
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bret aaronpk is that okay? ^^
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KartikPrabhu bret: yes that would be the question :)
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bret KartikPrabhu i would think mostly righht?
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bret you might encrypt it if you dont want people peeking at it
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KartikPrabhu I don't know. dropbox doesn't look different from Google Albums or soemthing. But it might differ in the EULA which I haven't read
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bret KartikPrabhu seen this? http://tosdr.org/
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aaronpk KartikPrabhu: as long as you can get the data out the same way you put it in it's fine. it's more a question of how easy is it to replace one service with another.
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aaronpk also do I need to know that you're using a service in order to interact with your data there
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KartikPrabhu I basically want to use it to store photos which I can then insert into posts on my site
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aaronpk if you want to be really safe about it, you could create local URLs on your domain that redirect to the S3 version. that way if you want to replace S3 later you don't have to change your URLs
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KartikPrabhu bret: thanks for that link :)
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: oo nice idea!
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KartikPrabhu bret: quite amusing to read criticism of Google's TOS on that site while the "Discussion" page is on Google Groups :P
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bret lol yuuuup, its the world we live in
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bret although google's data scooping isnt a huge bother to me as much as other things
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gRegor` snarfed: Does bridgy only watch for interactions back to a certain point? I received a FB like from a May 1 post today, but not one on a January 8 post. They were both liked by the same person within a minute or two of each other, too.
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bret aaronpk is it okay to come early to esri today?
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bret just to work, not distract you
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aaronpk bret: I'll likely be in meetings and such until 5 but yeah you can grab a desk to work on
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bret I would probrably get there like at 5:15ish
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aaronpk no problem
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snarfed gRegor`: yes, it goes back a ways, but not indefinitely far
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snarfed you can send a webmention for the jan 8 one yourself if you want. you have to construct the source url manually, but it's doable
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aaronpk snarfed: i would love to see a page explaining the URL structure, I'd do manual webmentions to myself more often if I knew how to construct those URLs
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snarfed aaronpk: sure! added to my todo list. tantek asked about how far back it looks yesterday too, so there's clearly interest
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gRegor` snarfed: construct the brid.gy source URL?
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snarfed yeah. e.g. https://www.brid.gy/like/twitter/schnarfed/446689402916315136/139199211 is a favorite for schnarfed's tweet id 446689402916315136 by user id 139199211
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snarfed i'll ping you all once i've updated https://www.brid.gy/about with details
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gRegor` Got it. I'm figuring out the FB one currently.
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snarfed url structures differ by type (comment, like, etc) but not by silo, so a fb like will work the same way
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snarfed /like/facebook/[user id]/[post id]/[liker user id]
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gRegor` Eenteresting. So brid.gy is parsing the like/comment on demand when I manually create the URL (for the first time)?
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snarfed sadly it does it *every* time, not just the first time
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aaronpk nodb ftw!
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snarfed heh
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snarfed fixing that is https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/15 , but it's never become a priority
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gRegor` Ohhh
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Loqi tantek: bret left you a message 55 minutes ago: making some notes on how to recategorize the projects into something more useful
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Loqi tantek: bret left you a message 52 minutes ago: I'll probably work on a userspace version during writing hour
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bret also including things that really should be in that list
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gRegor` That explains why re-processing a twitter comment pulled in an updated display name for a friend.
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gRegor` ★ The More You Know
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tantek gRegor`++
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tantek bret - shall we work on some goals / criteria for the /projects page?
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aaronpk yay the github is page is way better now https://github.com/indieweb
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bret tantek yeah! generally I wanted to shift it away from a "what tools exist that can be used for indiewebbing" to "check out these community member projects which use x building blocks to do x"
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snarfed gah. i'm so used to markdown now, i use it automatically even when i'm authoring a literal .html file. sigh.
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iamshane.com edited /Homesteading (+68) "Added /weights to Post Types section" (view diff)
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tantek bret - what makes you want to make that be the focus?
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tantek for /projects that is
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tantek snarfed, interesting. would a <markdown> element in HTML5 be useful? (for explicitly invoking a markdown processor)
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bret Because whenever I find myself showing someone indieweb stuff, I point them to a list of different websites that demonstrate the different directions and ideas people tend to be taking
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snarfed tantek: i'd kill for that! i'd never choose to author in raw html over markdown if i didn't have to
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snarfed seems like a long shot to get into the spec, but i'd love it
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tantek snarfed, all it takes is a few interoperable implementations ;)
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snarfed it'd probably be straightforward to polyfill, i'm sure there are js markdown implementations
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tantek bret - "different websites that demonstrate the different directions" sounds like a good reason to show people individual indieweb sites rather than projects
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barnabywalters surely a standardised markdown would be a prerequisite for a <markdown> element in the HTML standard
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shaners tantek: snarfed: Haml and some other template languages handle this by allowing a for a filter tag. you can then specify which filter to use. markdown, yaml, etc
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snarfed barnabywalters: shh that way lie dragons
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barnabywalters snarfed: exactly :/
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bret tantek when I say projects that is basically what I mean, their websites in most cases
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tantek my understanding of haml is that it is just as much mess as HTML without the ubiquity
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rascul is there a wiki tag to include the dfn from another page?
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tantek bret - but websites != projects
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tantek bret, you're talking about IndieWeb Examples
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tantek of which there are plenty, per indieweb feature even
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bret I guess? i mean, falcon is your project, but I look at tantek.com for an example of that project
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bret p3k is aaronpk's project, but I look at his website or caseorganic's website for an example
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shaners i'm not a fan of haml. but i do like the way of being tell the parser as a human that i'm switching modes within a document
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tantek I think it's good that each project list a few example deployments
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tantek however the focus should still be on the projects rather than the deployments
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rascul makes more sense to me to have /projects be indieweb specific stuff, put the other stuff on another page
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tantek snarfed, barnabywalters if/when I get around to switching to HTML+markdown for my storage files, I'll likely write up some sort of simplified minimal canonical version of markdown
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bret tantek ya i agree, I think I was just not explaining it very well in IRC…. i want to list off the projects, and have that list containt people and example sites
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tantek have already started documenting my thoughts on http://tantek.com/w/Markdown
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barnabywalters tantek: in my experience 90% of my “usage” of markdown is paragraphs from line breaks
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barnabywalters the rest is headers and links
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barnabywalters headers are potentially quite easy to auto-detect
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tantek interesting, I like markdown for lists
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tantek the links format is crap. headers are meh.
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bret tantek… community members over general tools, unless there is a reason to include a general tool other than noting its relation to a specific project
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barnabywalters ah yeah, I sometimes use lists too
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barnabywalters yep, links is horrible
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tantek too much of markdown as people use it violate markdown's #1 design principle of "make it as readable as possible"
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rascul if i can't easily read my markdown source then i'm unhappy
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rascul same goes with any code or markup though
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bret links are anying in markdown unless you are naming them, plain urls should be autolinked
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tantek hence I tend to be skeptical of rabid markdown advocates who don't admit its (seemingly obvious) internal flaws up front.
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rascul plain url linking depends on the implementation though
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bret rascul it shouldnt
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tantek hah, that's funny
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bret when do you see plain urls and not want the option of clicking?
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bret or linking
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rascul never
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tantek bret, re: "community members over general tools" - so I think that's an important point.
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bret i mean community member projects* just clarifying
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tantek perhaps we can use community adoption / day-to-day use as a filter / sorting of projects
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bret ya i think that would be good
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bret simply moving experimental above production would be an improvement imo
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bret still, want to do more than just that
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bret tantek differentiated cms like projects away from service hubs would also be nice I think
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bret separate from*
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bret ie taproot is different than webmention.io
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gRegor` rascul: Do you mean a <dfn> from a redirect page?
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rascul gRegor` no, i may not have explained it well
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tantek bret - I'm thinking of getting rid of the experimental vs. production distinction completely
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bret yes
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bret i agree
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rascul i mean something like [dfn GitHub] to be replaced with the dfn from /GitHub
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tantek because I'm not sure it's helping anyone any more
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gRegor` Markdown inside a markup language seems ironic to me. ;)
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tantek it did originally but at this point many "experimental" projects are more useful/usable and advancing faster
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gRegor` Oh, no support for that that I'm aware of, rascul.
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rascul gRegor` i figured so, was just curious
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tantek I do want to prefer as you say "community member projects"
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rascul likes community member projects
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gRegor` Would take a custom mediawiki plugin I believe. or a template for every dfn
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tantek perhaps sorted by # of indieweb sites running them
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bret tantek i was also thinking of having a (Beautiful) Silos"
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bret section
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tantek and we put "WordPress" as a bookend
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tantek silos aren't projects
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bret as a way to track open source silos that would be rad to get on board with webmention and uF2 stuf
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rascul gRegor` eh that's way over my head, i just the other day figured out how to make a template for myself heh
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tantek open sources silos? I don't think that means what you think it means. ;)
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tantek do you mean open source monocultures?
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rascul or more specifically, i just copied kylewm's template ;)
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gRegor` Yeah, templates can be a beast
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bret tantek yeah… but i want to describe them in an encouraging way (you can still interop!) instead of discouraging (monoculte be damned!)
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bret monoculture*
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bret Or something like "These are open source [[monoculture]]
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bret 's
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tantek I'd put those on a separate page frankly
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gRegor` A custom plugin would probably be even more of a beast, since you'd need to set up a mediawiki install to test it. And then there's the fact that the IWC mediawiki is older and needs to be updated. And so on. :)
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gRegor` ben_thatmustbeme: Was it you that was working on updating the mediawiki install?
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bret are you a developer or user of these? You can help bring these projects forward by interoping with the indieweb"
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tantek can you give me a concrete example of one that would work?
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rascul gRegor` openshift makes mediawiki installs easy :)
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tantek bret - most of those seem to just die off if we just ignore them long enough.
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tantek and people leave them disillusioned and determined to work on something more interoperable
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bret tantek IE pump.io or ghost… both could easily interop if there was interest from their community
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tantek pump.io does have interest - evanpro has expressed it!
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tantek he's just waiting for pull requests AFAIK
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tantek ghost OTOH has rejected pull requests
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tantek so I'd put those in different categories
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gRegor` I have a friend running ghost that when he saw webmentions said "Great! Now learn Ghost and make a plugin for it." Heh
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bret ghost is like wordpress basically, if we had someone interested in making that happen it could
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tantek and then there's tent.io which has frustrated enough people already that they've showed up here instead.
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rascul i've never used ghost but i understand it's pretty good, i thought i saw mention of someone attempting indieweb stuff with it
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bret tantek pump is focusing on posse right now
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bret instead of indieweb comments
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tantek bret - I agree with that focus and prioritization!
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tantek as does IndieMark :)
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bret :D
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bret im just bitter my pr just sits there: https://github.com/e14n/pump.io/pull/871 >:p
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bret evan has kids though i understand
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tantek bret, can you document that issue on http://indiewebcamp.com/pump.io ?
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tantek specifically how long the PR has been outstanding (since when)
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rascul i had looked briefly at pump awhile back
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bret.io edited /pump.io (+86) "added PR reference" (view diff)
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bret i know node a lot better
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bret maybe if I got webmentions working the PR would be more attractive
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bret ok i gotta go back to work… ill ping with you what I come up with at writing hour
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bret tantek^^
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tantek bret - I'm going to start incrementally making changes to /projects
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bret ah ok
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tantek I'll document my work / thinking outloud here in the channel as I do so
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tantek so you (or anyone) can yell stop or suggest better ideas
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bret sounds good
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tantek the basic goal is to make the site more usable for people visiting it from the home page
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tantek er, make the projects *page* more usable
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tantek for people coming and hoping to find projects that will help them get onto the indieweb
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bret i want it to be like a tour of the indieweb
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bret through its projects
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tantek I don't think a tour is the right goal for /projects
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tantek that's fine for the *examples* underneath each project
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tantek like that's a good criteria for a focused set of smaller examples
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tantek that each "example" listed inline below a project should be "tour-worthy"
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tantek but IMO top goal for /projects should be "what can I setup right now to get on the indieweb?" with a preference for indieweb community projects.
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tantek so that we basically make /projects a competition for most usable / useful indieweb project
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tantek measured by # of indieweb sites actively using it
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tantek (I think Known/idno would be first btw, followed by p3k right now, then all of our single-user selfdogfood projects, then WordPress as the bookend)
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tantek I'd rank the single-user selfdogfood projects by indiemark level btw
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bret publify has quite a few users, not nessisarily all apart of the iwc community
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bret iirc
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/rsvp/facebook/212038/675481332531191/724885424 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-06-18-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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tantek bret - if they're not part of the community it's unlikely the project will keep up with indieweb advances in UX, protocols, formats
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tantek.com edited /code (+290) "add rascul, add uses phrasing, note unknown "since" dates" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /code (+9) "/* See Also */ see also git" (view diff)
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rascul whoa that scared me for a minute, i was in the middle of editing a page and thought i accidentally hit submit!
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rascul Loqi highlighting my name i mean heh
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bret neuro` was around quite a bit
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tantek.com edited /code (+23) "/* Aaron Parecki */ since ????, bullets" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /git (+51) "code, indepedence" (view diff)
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tantek rascul - heh - sorry about that!
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tantek rascul - ok I'm done touching the code / git related pages for now - go for it
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tantek is off to start incrementally hacking on /projects
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championix.com edited /2014/Guest_List (+410) "Adding self." (view diff)
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@Xangis Indie Web Camp 2014, June 28-29 in PDX and NYC: http://indiewebcamp.com/2014 #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/479369500135915520)
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tantek.com edited /projects (+1565) "in transition heads up banner, About This Page" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /pump.io (+212) "explicitly create Issues section with Unknown Delay Adopting IndieWeb Standards" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /projects (+136) "/* See Also */ add GS, IndieMark, PHP and Ruby" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /projects (+290) "start the new page above the old page, document progress as we go. Get on the IndieWeb with Known or p3k" (view diff)
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tantek ok that's a start.
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tantek !tell bnvk take a look at http://indiewebcamp.com/projects when you get a chance, I've started switching it over, and captured our dialog/thinking on transition here: http://indiewebcamp.com/projects#About_This_Page
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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tantek oops wrong person
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tantek !tell bret take a look at http://indiewebcamp.com/projects when you get a chance, I've started switching it over, and captured our dialog/thinking on transition here: http://indiewebcamp.com/projects#About_This_Page
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek !tell bvnk nevermind that was meant for bret.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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rascul.io edited /git (+1225) "List more software and provide brief descriptions about the software, separate the lists a little bit, add posse note" (view diff)
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rascul tantek how does that look?
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rascul !
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rascul i guess he didn't want to tell me
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Loqi bnvk: tantek left you a message 4 hours, 56 minutes ago: why do you want a repo on github.com/indieweb for "store" before it is shown to be working in some capacity on your own site?
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Loqi bnvk: tantek left you a message 11 minutes ago: take a look at http://indiewebcamp.com/projects when you get a chance, I've started switching it over, and captured our dialog/thinking on transition here: http://indiewebcamp.com/projects#About_This_Page
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snarfed !tell gRegor`, aaronpk ask and ye shall receive: https://www.brid.gy/about#source-urls . also more details about how far bridgy looks back in time at the bottom of https://www.brid.gy/about#missing
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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GWG !tell barnabywalters I have the translation you asked for.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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aaronpk snarfed: YAY awesome
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Loqi aaronpk: snarfed left you a message 11 minutes ago: ask and ye shall receive: https://www.brid.gy/about#source-urls . also more details about how far bridgy looks back in time at the bottom of https://www.brid.gy/about#missing
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snarfed aaronpk: geobin.io?
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aaronpk what how'd you find out about that :P
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snarfed (or shh is it a secret)
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snarfed heh
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snarfed github rss feed
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aaronpk ohh
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aaronpk we're about to launch it
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snarfed cool! break a leg
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bret lol geobin is 404ing but its still in my feed as "aaronpk open sourced..."
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bret the repo that is
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Loqi bret: tantek left you a message 53 minutes ago: take a look at http://indiewebcamp.com/projects when you get a chance, I've started switching it over, and captured our dialog/thinking on transition here: http://indiewebcamp.com/projects#About_This_Page
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bret oh cool
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Loqi basal: kylewm left you a message 5 days, 4 hours ago: re: upcoming meetups in the bay area http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-06-18-homebrew-website-club
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aaronpk oh it's complicated. moving repos between private/public orgs and screwing with the forks
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bret.io edited /projects (+396) "/* About This Page */" (view diff)
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aaronpk having p3k in the "get on the indieweb" section is a little disingenuous, since it would take a lot of work to actually use p3k right now including reading under-documented repos
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bret I
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bret What about Indieweb projects?
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aaronpk it should probably go wherever Falcon is listed
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aaronpk it would be nice if I packaged it up a little better so you could install it easily but that is a long ways out
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aaronpk also is not a priority of mine, I'd rather publish useful libraries that others can use
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Loqi gRegor`: snarfed left you a message 1 hour, 9 minutes ago: ask and ye shall receive: https://www.brid.gy/about#source-urls . also more details about how far bridgy looks back in time at the bottom of https://www.brid.gy/about#missing
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Loqi [mention] http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4WeNxi/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/reader (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4WeNxi/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/comment (webmention)
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gRegor` Chicago Coffeebrew Website Club is in effect.
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gRegor` Er, Homebrew.
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bret you funnyman
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bret who made it?
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snarfed go chicago!
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gRegor` Intelligentsia coffee
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gRegor` Still just the two of us, but we'll reach critical mass one day!
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paulmunday.net edited /events/2014-06-18-homebrew-website-club (+50) "/* RSVP */" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu people! need a good word for "comments on a part of a post" like Medium's 'annotations' but not that... :P
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snarfed.org edited /projects (+1030) "/* production */ add wp.com, blogger, tumblr" (view diff)
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Loqi move apache and nginx down since they're much lower level
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: why not annotations? it is the right word, after all
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KartikPrabhu Not really. Annotations could also mean "notes that you have written on your copy of my article"
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KartikPrabhu errr... maybe I just don't like it, which would make it my problem :P
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snarfed eh, i guess. i'll slowly back away from the semantics debate :P
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snarfed yeah, i suspected the latter. language is a tool, not territory. no sense in discarding words just because people we may not like use them
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KartikPrabhu is very tempted to be pedantic and use "scholia" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scholia) instead of annotations :P
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snarfed lol!
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snarfed great if your goal is playing with words
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snarfed not so great if your goal communicating :P
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snarfed.org edited /projects (+1) "move p3k to the same section as falcon, since aaronpk said that's where it should go: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-06-18/line/1403130646" (view diff)
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snarfed.org edited /projects (+0) "/* production */ move wp.com/blogger/tumblr down a bit since they're not as indieweb-specific" (view diff)
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gRegor` "indietations" KartikPrabhu, snarfed
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KartikPrabhu is temporarily using "marginalia"
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bret margin notes
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bret m-note
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bret :p