#indiewebcamp 2014-06-22

2014-06-22 UTC
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tantek fascinating use of #Indieweb as caught by kylewm: https://twitter.com/soapfanfiction/status/480158595959365633
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@soapfanfiction @kyle_wm shows that are created, filmed and aired on alternative viewing platforms. such as online web series.... (twitter.com/_/status/480158595959365633)
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tantek I think we can be big enough to be inclusive of "indie" "web" produced/published arts in general, such as independent shows/films that are posted on their own web sites.
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tantek (rather than say Hulu or Netflix - which don't feel "indie")
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tantek (or certainly YouTube, which has been documented recently to be anti-indie-arts: http://indiewebcamp.com/YouTube#Unequal_treatment_of_indie_artists
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bnvk tantek: I fully applaud & want to see that reality :)
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@t @KevinMarks @Case it takes a village to grow an ecosystem. A village of independents to create an #indieweb ecosystem. (ttk.me t4Wh1) (twitter.com/_/status/480512235530252289)
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@t @madradavid nice #indieweb site: http://madradavid.com looking forward to seeing what you build this weekend! (ttk.me t4Wh2) (twitter.com/_/status/480514214767759360)
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GWG I'm having trouble with another design feature
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rascul what trouble?
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GWG Styling a response/comment/mention/etc
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GWG I'm working on site design version 3.0
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rascul maybe i can be helpful
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tantek.com edited /2014/Guest_List (+31) "/* Official Guest List */ clear the table" (view diff)
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GWG rascul: Look at http://tiny.n9n.us and the blue numbers indicating responses to a post
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rascul if you didn't already tell me i wouldn't realize those were referring to number of responses
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rascul meybe some indicator for that could be helpful
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GWG I tried that. I was having trouble with it. I could go with an icon..
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rascul and/or give the link a title
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GWG http://genericons.com/#comment
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GWG Like this thing
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GWG I discovered something about titles...
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rascul yeah that icon might go good
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GWG Yes.
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rascul what about titles?
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tantek.com edited /Gowalla (+11) "dfn" (view diff)
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tantek what was Gowalla?
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rascul what is gowalla?
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GWG If you are using a tablet...you don't see them
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Loqi Gowalla was a location checkin silo that operated from 2007 to 2012 http://indiewebcamp.com/Gowalla
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rascul heh is for was
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tantek.com edited /Loqi (+66) "/* Ideas */ what was xyz alias for what is" (view diff)
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rascul GWG good point
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rascul don't see them in links either
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GWG rascul: Better or worse?
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GWG Made a change
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tantek.com edited /2014/Guest_List (+31) "add Further_East id for backcompat id ref since I think Brennan linked to it at least a few times" (view diff)
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rascul hrm
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rascul it's much more clear now, but i think the comment box is too fat
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tantek.com edited /Gowalla (+74) "see also ... site deaths" (view diff)
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GWG That is the icon...
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GWG I just made the icon smaller
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rascul that looks nicer to me now
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GWG There is your title tag
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GWG SO, what other metadata is missing?
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GWG I've been building the logic for the metadata
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rascul location?
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GWG I have that project under development
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GWG https://github.com/dshanske/simple-location
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@t #IndieWebCamp 2014 next weekend PDX NYC & now BERLIN thanks to 2011 camper @brennannovak! RSVP: http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/Guest_List#Farther_East (ttk.me t4Wh3) (twitter.com/_/status/480530061326442496)
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rascul ooo ok
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rascul the comment icon being fat might just be me, be sure to ask other people about it :)
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GWG tantek: We calling ourselves campers?
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GWG I need to now do the note vs article logic.
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tantek GWG - shorter than participant or attendee to fit into the tweet, plus, what do you call someone who participates in an IndieWebCamp? An IndieWebCamper!
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rascul that settles it
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rascul when i can finally go to iwc, i'm pitching a tent
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rascul well, if it's not too cold anyway :)
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tantek rascul - good to know - we'll have to pick a site accordingly ;)
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rascul indiewebcamp at a campground? hehe
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tantek Maybe we can get Tim O'Reilly to host an IndieWeb Foo Camp :)
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KartikPrabhu catches up on logs
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rascul excellent idea!
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GWG tantek: I like Indiewebcamp. I hated camp.
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rascul often goes camping
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GWG rascul: Camping/camp....
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KartikPrabhu tantek: mari heurtas replied about HWC Chicago... will try to get something figured out about next one
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rascul http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Defunct_websites
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GWG rascul: I'm in the country right now, till tomorrow when I go home. If you want to pitch a tent outside...
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rascul actually i'm probably going camping in a few weeks in virginia in the shenandoah mountains
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GWG Have fun.
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rascul well it's really just one mountain in the appalachians
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GWG Bringing your biolite camping stove and cell phone charger?
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rascul stove no, charger yes
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rascul fire > stove
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GWG One of those charging pots?
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rascul car charger and wall charger
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GWG What wall?
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rascul my mom has a piece of property in the mountains she has setup with a cabin and a pavillion
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GWG Oh
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rascul i pitch my tent there :)
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rascul cabin was just finished a couple months ago though i haven't seen it yet
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GWG I'm in the country about 130 miles north of New York City.
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GWG My grandparents have a place up here
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rascul ooo i'm in south central pa
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GWG But they can't get up here very easily, so I came up for the weekend.
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rascul i'm hoping to go to the cambridge thing in october, my sister lives in ma so i'll get to visit her at the same time
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rascul i should have money for ticket in a few weeks then i'll put my name down
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GWG I may video in. Not sure if I can head up
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rascul i'm taking the train, never been on a train before
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GWG My brother lives in MA and I don't want to stay with him
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rascul i have a friend in nh that works in boston also
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GWG Last time I was at Harvard, I just flew up for the day
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rascul i've never been in the boston area except for as long as it took to get off the plane, rent a car and drive west
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/t/480530061326442496/139199211 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/Guest_List#Farther_East (webmention)
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: hope you knew about the video game Kirby character...
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rascul i played one of the kirby games a bunch of years ago
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tantek.com edited /timeline (+613) "2010-10-08 Open Web FooCamp, noted POSSE diagram showed backfeed arrows too, first UK SF NYC camps" (view diff)
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tantek (BTW Tim O'Reilly has hosted Open Web Foo Camp and Social Web Foo Camp in the past http://indiewebcamp.com/timeline#2008 )
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rascul camping!
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GWG I just like the name Foo
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tantek btw many/most people do *actual* camping at Foo Camps
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rascul i would
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GWG tantek: But if you were doing it, wouldn't it have to be Fot Camp?
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tantek GWG - I hope not! Prefer not to make it a personality thing.
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GWG tantek: I understand. You are very unique though.
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tantek you're larger point is right though - "Foo" is kind of incongruous with "IndieWeb" - unless somehow we get so big that O'Reilly wants to filter for FOO.
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tantek GWG - treating everyone as unique is a good strategy. Pushes you to find out what is unique about them.
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GWG That would make it Fo camp.
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tantek !tell benwerd great blog post - and totally reasonable bars to set. looking forward to seeing you meet them :) http://werd.io/2014/simple-quick-stupid-set-the-bar-low-so-you-can
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek.com edited /Bitbucket (+73) "linky, see also" (view diff)
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GWG tantek: I'm looking at your site header
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tantek GWG - oh dear
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KartikPrabhu has no actual site header!
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@skinny RT @t: #IndieWebCamp 2014 next weekend PDX NYC & now BERLIN thanks to 2011 camper @brennannovak! RSVP: http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/Guest_List#Farther_East (ttk.me t4Wh3) (twitter.com/_/status/480539264866738176)
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tantek.com created /Google_Code (+305) "stub dfn silo" (view diff)
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GWG tantek: I'm looking at the two most common header styles. One is a full width, the other is a left oriented image
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tantek.com edited /Google (+19) "silo Google Code" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /git (-22) "/* Silos */ separate page for Google Code, move links there" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu GWG: you should feel free to make your own header design! More diversity in visual design on the indieweb is good
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tantek GWG do you mean "header" as in design / visual element?
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GWG Design/visual element
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GWG Not header as in HTML header
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tantek GWG - looks different in "mobile" (narrower window) also
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tantek 2 styles yes. home page and permalinks
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tantek !tell rascul - well done with the /git article - only made small tweaks.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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rascul :)
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Loqi rascul: tantek left you a message 2 minutes ago: - well done with the /git article - only made small tweaks.
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tantek KartikPrabhu: great to hear about Mari!
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tantek is trying to keep up with all the threads
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/repost/twitter/t/480530061326442496/480539264866738176 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/Guest_List#Farther_East (webmention)
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rascul i wanted to mention http://git-scm.com/book but i couldn't figure out how to do it in a way that didn't make me feel like i was advertising it
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tantek rascul - looks like a free online book to me - seems reasonable
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tantek maybe a "Documentation" section?
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rascul quite a good book, and open source
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rascul ooo documentation section could be good, i'm sure i could add a few links there
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tantek ok I need some WordPress help if anyone wants to join me in the #microformats channel (having trouble finding things in the damn WordPress dashboard UI). cc GWG
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tantek like where the heck does "dynamic_sidebar" get its content from? e.g. dynamic_sidebar("Home Page");
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rascul tantek #wordpress might be helpful
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tantek rascul - GWG sorted it for me
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tantek thanks much!
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tantek and that's enough for tonight
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tantek ttyl!
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GWG tantek: I'm glad I've proved useful
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tantek GWG - definitely. and instantly so. I was struggling looking for that stuff.
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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joeld hmm
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@joeld @gRegorLove so, question: why does indiewebcamp seem to insist on hCard vs http://schema.org Is there a philosophical reason? (twitter.com/_/status/480558883602456576)
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tantek ah too bad, was going to ask gRegor if he knew the answer
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tantek !tell gRegor` do you know the answer to https://twitter.com/joeld/status/480558883602456576 ? the philosophical reasons of simpler and open?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek funny coincidence, @joeld's profile says he's in Minneapolis, and *I* am in Minneapolis currently as well!
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KartikPrabhu tantek: maybe you could reply
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tantek KartikPrabhu: going to give gRegor the chance to do so first, since @joeld did reach out to hime.
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tantek the two parts expanded:
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tantek simpler: should be obvious - check schema/person and all the crap there vs. h-card - no comparison.
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aaronpk !tell bnvk it's not that I want to encourage relying on a third party auth provider, I just want to allow the option for it.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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tantek pointless to publish more complex things, you'll likely make more mistakes. unless it's a hobby for you. e.g. see tommorris' publishing of many things. works for him.
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tantek pointless to consume more complext things, because again, greater likelihood of bad data due to complexity.
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tantek schema is not open. it's google owned & controlled with lip-service to Yahoo, MSFT, Yandex
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KartikPrabhu is there any data on adoption of Schema by publishers?
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tantek and it's presumably patent encumbered.
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tommorris tantek: there’s an important point there. I publish them because there’s not much cost in doing so - just a few extra bytes on the page. but nobody seems to be doing much with them.
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tantek KartikPrabhu: by indieweb publishers? none AFAIK
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tommorris and patent encumbering for ontologies seems unlikely
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tommorris Google’s “don’t be evil” may be a joke, but even that’s a bit too evil.
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tommorris actually does some work on tommorris.org today
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tommorris namely, finishing off the /places bit
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GWG I've been widgetizing.
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GWG Oddly I was working on widget code as tantek asked about what a dynamic_sidebar was
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GWG http://tiny.n9n.us/
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tommorris a review of a place: h-card inside h-review?
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GWG There is my widget
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tantek tommorris - actually, they Google are that evil in the case of schema
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tantek and I've documented it for 3 years
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tantek most recently it was a big public blow-up at the osfw3c workshop last August in SF
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tantek http://tantek.com/2013/219/t20/osfw3c-schema-org-bad-for-open-web
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tantek http://tantek.com/2013/219/t17/osfw3c-schema-org-no-patent-license-consuming
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tommorris That’s pretty ghastly.
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tantek this was back in 2011: http://tantek.com/2011/156/t2/webm-bigco-patent-closed-schemaorg-fights-indie-openweb
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tantek I wish I'd noted what tweet it was in reply to
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KartikPrabhu wait so you are not actally freely allowed to consume Schema stuff?
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tommorris I wonder if most of the OWL/RDF stuff is royalty-free. because then you have the issue of, well, if you are parsing a page as RDFa, you are parsing schema.org whether you want to or not
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tantek tommorris - so yeah, none of us can *consume* schema because their license is only for *publishing*. that alone makes schema a non-starter for the indieweb since we have to publish *and* consume.
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tantek I've asked Google to fix the license since 2011, to use OWFa, or the W3C RF patent license etc. and they said NO.
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tantek so at this point I basically tell people to avoid schema at all costs
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tantek and don't have any patience left to deal with them
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tantek they're a bigco they should have fixed this long ago. the fact that they haven't means either they don't care or they have malintent or both.
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KartikPrabhu hmm hopefully I removed all schema stuff correctly
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tantek tommorris - who knows - it's a good reason to AVOID schema vocabs in *any* syntax, whether microdata, rdfa, or even microformats2.
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tantek tommorris - you can avoid it by dropping any triples with schema.org in them
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tommorris yeah, will do that shortly.
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tantek avoid *consuming it
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tommorris mostly I’m not using anything from schema.org that isn’t replicated from FOAF/SIOC etc.
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tantek KartikPrabhu: the license is only for publishing
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KartikPrabhu yeah... weird
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tommorris So, I worked out how to fully nail down app.net syndication
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tantek KartikPrabhu: so there is the implication that they are not giving you permission for consuming
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tommorris the queue server I use - beanstalkd - lets you put in delayed jobs. the problem with app.net is with IFTTT there’s a time delay between publishing on your own site and then them syndicating it to ADN
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tantek otherwise why would they need to say: "… solely for the purpose of including markup of structured data in a webpage …" http://schema.org/docs/terms.html
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tommorris so after publication I just plonk a job in my job queue timed at 30m and 60m.
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tantek why not for *any* purpose?!?
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tommorris to pull in the Atom feed from ADN and sync up.
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tantek so because of that clause I don't trust schema, and I don't trust Google
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KartikPrabhu tantek: yeah. noticed that while reading the ToS
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tantek and because when confronted about it in 2011 and asked to change it they said no
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tantek and most recently at osfw3c workshop in 2013-08 when confronted about they said sure go ahead and consume (verbally) and I said I'll believe it when you've updated the ToS - which they said they would do - and never did.
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tantek so here's the summary tweet: https://twitter.com/t/status/365262920944336896
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Loqi [@t] #osfw3c Sam Goto asks is #schema good or bad?
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tantek more notes on osfw3c here: http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/osfw3c
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tommorris so, this weekend, I’ve been holed up at my parents place trying to recover from a few days of illness, and thinking quite a bit about publishing photos on my own site.
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tommorris trying out different approaches and trying to work out the issues around responsive images.
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tommorris ended up basically deciding on “steal everything I liked from old Flickr” as my design strategy.
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tantek tommorris I like that strategy
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tantek more fun on the schema not-open problem: https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/365617535321780224
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@kevinmarks #osfw3c q: it sounds like there is a bit of an impasse - what is the governance process? Guha: made by 4 member companies. It's not open. (twitter.com/_/status/365617535321780224)
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KartikPrabhu tantek: found this talk transcript by Matthew Butterick you might be interested in: http://unitscale.com/mb/bomb-in-the-garden/
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tantek and https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/365617829115985922
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@kevinmarks #osfw3c q: http://schema.org is not a legal entity, there's 4 companies and no-one else gets a say? Guha: Yes, thats how it works. (twitter.com/_/status/365617829115985922)
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tantek and me going on the record: https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/365618517070348288
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@kevinmarks #osfw3c @t: I'll believe the updated ToS when I see it. (twitter.com/_/status/365618517070348288)
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tommorris Wow. Doesn’t R.V. Guha work at Google?
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tantek yes tommorris - he's the head of schema
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tantek hence why he was being grilled about it
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tantek schema patent issues blew up on day 1 of the workshop, so guha drove up from MV to SF on day 2
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tantek and his attitude was so arrogant that he basically pissed off (or scared) a ton of people from many different companies in the room.
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tantek KartikPrabhu: that article transcript is way tl;dr
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KartikPrabhu tantek: it is :) too long read later... also I skipped the personal history sectiosn
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tantek tommorris - more here (just search for "schema") http://www.w3.org/2013/08/07-osfw3c-irc
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KartikPrabhu tantek: an interesting point from that talk seems to be Butterick calling for a low-level payment protocol in the Web. ref: http://unitscale.com/mb/bomb-in-the-garden/##information+to+be+expensive (fragmentions)
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tommorris so, I’ve just published a load of little reviews on http://tommorris.org/places/uk/london - all as hReview with embedded hCards
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tantek KartikPrabhu: I vaguely remember having discussion in IRC before
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KartikPrabhu yes. hence my interest in this article. It appears quite a few people have this view
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tantek protocol first is the wrong approach. as a designer/typographer he should know better.
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tantek let's see public documentation (as in, on a publicly editable wiki page) of those use-cases first
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tantek so I'm basically ignoring all "we need a payment protocol talk"
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tantek until those making that talk document their use-cases with specific URLs and provide such permalinks
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tommorris we’ve got Dogecoin, what more do you need? ;)
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tantek otherwise they're welcome to go waste time in any number of w3c payment protocol community groups etc.
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tantek you know, email lists, for people who like to talk but no action
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tantek tommorris - btw the #Indiewebcamp archives are better than W3C. E.g. Bret nailed the point here: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-08-08#t1376005386
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tantek scroll around there for more context / nonsense
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KartikPrabhu hmm yeah. none of the "we need payment people" seem to be even remotely concerned with "how it would work" replicating the usual paywall approach is not good i think
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tantek KartikPrabhu: right. so I assume they will never get anything done and instead direct them to a w3c mailing list to discuss their ideas with other similar people
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tommorris Mailing lists: keeping hard drive manufacturers in business since 1986.
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tantek KartikPrabhu: meanwhile, as a positive counterpoint, here's *my* approach to what we can solve for payment on the web *today* : http://indiewebcamp.com/payment
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KartikPrabhu didn't know about that page.. reads up
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tommorris http://tommorris.org/posts/8999 :)
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KartikPrabhu :D
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KartikPrabhu shouldn't Loqi start formatting h-entries like he does for twitter URLs?
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KartikPrabhu and paste the contents here...
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tantek tommorris: http://xkcd.com/1171/
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tantek and http://regex.info/blog/2006-09-15/247
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tantek KartikPrabhu: add to indiewebcamp.com/Loqi#Ideas
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tantek !tell KevinMarks do you have an archive page of all your #osfw3c noterlive tweets? e.g. https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/365618517070348288 and https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/365617535321780224
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek and off to bed
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tantek almost
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tantek !tell aaronpk seems like http://twtr.io/ links 404 if there's an errant ")" at the end, as happens on some auto-linkers of when Loqi links to twtr.io in the channel with a suffix like (http://twtr.io/bGnth9W7rU)
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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GWG KartikPrabhu: How is this shaping up?
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GWG http://tiny.n9n.us/
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KartikPrabhu GWG: this is a base theme to get mf2 working in wordpress themes?
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GWG KartikPrabhu: This is that, and version 3.0 of my theming effort
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GWG A lot of the tags aren't in yet
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KartikPrabhu looks good... I like that for a base theme you haven't added a lot of visual styles, as that should be best left to individual sites
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GWG The styles I'm adding are basic bootstrap styles, and everything is designed to be overridden by a child theme
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kartikprabhu.com edited /Loqi (+190) "/* Ideas */ h-entry parse" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu GWG: yes. that is a good strategy
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GWG Since it is the base for a new theme, I am adding more pieces I didn't have in the previous iteration. Like the Header Widget Area
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tommorris since tantek mentioned jay-z, I’m listening to Empire State of Mind and missing NYC
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GWG tommorris: You are always welcome in NYC
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tommorris London will always be home, but NYC is pretty awesome.
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KartikPrabhu NYC next weekend! wooo
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GWG KartikPrabhu: I'll put out the welcome mat
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KartikPrabhu ha!
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Loqi gRegor`: tantek left you a message 1 hour, 24 minutes ago: do you know the answer to https://twitter.com/joeld/status/480558883602456576 ? the philosophical reasons of simpler and open?
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gRegor` Glad to see chat already was on what i came here to ask about. ;)
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KartikPrabhu gregor`: see the logs. tantek pretty much ripped on schema
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gRegor` !tell tantek I didn't have a solid answer (not very familiar with schema.org), but I said I suspect it's because mf2 have been around longer and are simpler, and tend to favor "what's actually in use" vs top-down ideas.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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gRegor` https://twitter.com/gRegorLove/status/480583458415075328
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@gRegorLove @joeld I suspect because microformats have been around longer and are simpler. Tend to favor "what's actually in use" over top-down ideas. (twitter.com/_/status/480583458415075328)
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gRegor` https://twitter.com/gRegorLove/status/480583664086949888
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@gRegorLove @joeld I actually don't know much about http://t.co/j73YQPGLGi. I'll ask and hopefully they'll capture something on the wiki. (twitter.com/_/status/480583664086949888)
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gRegor` Yeah, that's what i meant. Saw the logs :)
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KartikPrabhu gregor`: schema is a bunch of vocabularies to be used with RDF and microdata
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@gRegorLove @joeld Apparently they already saw it in chat. :) http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-06-21#t1403409139 (twitter.com/_/status/480585995902259200)
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gRegor` I'll read up on it when I'm more awake. :)
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KartikPrabhu indie-visitor!
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gRegor` Welcome, indie-visitor
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KartikPrabhu gregor`: we should arrange somethign with Mari for the next HWC
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KartikPrabhu hi joeld
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joeld howdy finally showed up
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KartikPrabhu welcome...
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tommorris hey joeld
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tommorris (Schema.org - Google: strangling the Semantic Web until they can find a way to own it.)
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KartikPrabhu also fwiw I have found that microformats are easier to write than RDF or microdata
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joeld just catching up here
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joeld the licensing issue really is Too Bad, as based on first impressions I like Schema's syntax much more than hCard's
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tommorris microdata or RDFa, joeld?
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KartikPrabhu joeld: is the syntax more a RDF/microdata thing
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tommorris I like RDFa but that doesn’t require Schema.org
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tommorris There was a Semantic Web before Google decided to embrace&extend
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gRegor` KartikPrabhu: Yeah, I saw her tweet!
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gRegor` Did you link her to the event page for 7/2?
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KartikPrabhu haven't replied yet. Will formulate one when more awake tomorrow
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gRegor` Ok. Heading to bed, myself. Night.
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gRegor` Oh, and hi joeld! And g'night. :)
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KartikPrabhu night gregor`
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joeld heading to bed here too. will be back laters
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@jkphl .@t @brennannovak Oh. Would have loved jo join Berlin -- if I only knew earlier! :( #IndieWebCamp (twitter.com/_/status/480595223958265857)
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@jkphl RT @brennannovak: Interested in a better & more open web? Come learn & hack at #IndieWeb Camp 2014 in Berlin @agoracollective http://t.co/J… (twitter.com/_/status/480595556184899584)
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@workingdraft RT @brennannovak: Interested in a better & more open web? Come learn & hack at #IndieWeb Camp 2014 in Berlin @agoracollective http://t.co/J… (twitter.com/_/status/480602312080392192)
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@OnTheWebz RT @t: #IndieWebCamp 2014 next weekend PDX NYC & now BERLIN thanks to 2011 camper @brennannovak! RSVP: http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/Guest_List#Farther_East (ttk.me t4Wh3) (twitter.com/_/status/480623673766731776)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/repost/twitter/t/480530061326442496/480623673766731776 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/Guest_List#Farther_East (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/t/480530061326442496/16741230 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/Guest_List#Farther_East (webmention)
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Loqi aaronpk: tantek left you a message 4 hours, 52 minutes ago: seems like http://twtr.io/ links 404 if there's an errant ")" at the end, as happens on some auto-linkers of when Loqi links to twtr.io in the channel with a suffix like (http://twtr.io/bGnth9W7rU)
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brennannovak.com edited /kirby-login-app () "(-989) /* Kirby based transmission of public key to your website */" (view diff)
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Loqi bnvk: aaronpk left you a message 8 hours, 11 minutes ago: it's not that I want to encourage relying on a third party auth provider, I just want to allow the option for it.
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rascul.io edited /git (+518) "Add documentation section and remove stub" (view diff)
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Loqi pfefferle: GWG left you a message on 6/20 at 3:37pm: Saw the pull request, had actually fixed those and forgot to push.
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Loqi pfefferle: GWG left you a message on 6/20 at 3:37pm: Been working on http://indiewebcamp.com/WordPress/Development
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rascul.io edited /scrobbling (+163) "Add note about libre.fm and gnu fm" (view diff)
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mattl Happy to answer things about GNU FM and Libre.fm
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rascul you use them?
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bnvk mattl: what does Libre.fm do exactly?
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bnvk mattl: are you involved with the project?
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pdurbin bnvk: it's like last.fm but free: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libre.fm
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bnvk gotcha
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kylewm bnvk: mattl is a/the founder, also one of the maintainers of GNU Social
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bnvk ah very cool
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kylewm I'm adding info about transaction fees to /payment
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kylewm is gittip (recurring weekly donations) appropriate for that page?
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bnvk I never really understood Last.fm, i'd browse to a song, try to play it, and then be directed elsewhere to similar music- was always very confusing
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kylewm.com edited /payment (+387) "/* How */ added transaction fees" (view diff)
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kylewm.com edited /payment (+61) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ added Aaron" (view diff)
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brennannovak.com edited /store (-16) "/* Free and Paid Downloads */" (view diff)
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kylewm didn't realize Venmo was owned by Paypal
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rascul bnvk last.fm is best for scrobbling http://www.last.fm/help/faq?category=99#201
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rascul i use it sometimes http://www.last.fm/user/rascul3
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rascul problem is that many things supporting scrobbling only support last.fm it makes other options difficult at times if you want to scrobble
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rascul spotify for example
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bnvk scrobble?
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bnvk you crazy kids and your crazy words
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rascul hehe i think last.fm might have made it up, they explain it in the faq http://www.last.fm/help/faq?category=99#201
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bnvk yah, seems that way
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bnvk first time I've ever heard it :P
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GWG Good afternoon
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kylewm wow, i've been on last.fm since 2005
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kylewm had no idea
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kylewm any one a static site generator that only generates changed pages/indices?
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rascul crotal
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rascul http://crotal.org
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kylewm rascul: you're writing your own thing though right?
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rascul yes
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rascul mine doesn't yet do incremental changes or whatever it might be called
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rascul it will in due time, but not high on the priority list
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kylewm cool
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kylewm might only be necessary if you have thousands of notes
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aaronpk gooood morning!
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rascul indeed, it's not that important until there's a lot of content, which i don't have currently
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rascul aaronpk your clock is wrong it's almost 1pm!
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aaronpk i miss when scrobbling apps let you choose which scobbling server to point to
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rascul yeah it seems a lot of times the choices are last.fm or nothing
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aaronpk it is the way of the silo
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bnvk ooo, Crotal looks nifty
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rascul yeah crotal is nice, i was going to use it but i ended up writing my own instead
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aaronparecki.com edited /Template:indieauth-todo (-16) "link to indieauth category" (view diff)
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benjaminchait.net edited /2014/Guest_List (-266) "/* West */" (view diff)
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benjaminchait.net edited /2014/Guest_List (+265) "/* Regrets */" (view diff)
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kylewm.com edited /2014/Guest_List (-31) "/* Remote Participants */ remove stray </div>" (view diff)
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@scottjenson http://camlistore.org cool is personal cloud storage and services. If you're into the #indieweb you need to check this out #foocamp (twitter.com/_/status/480768969301688320)
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@scottjenson http://camlistore.org is a cool personal cloud storage and services. If you're into the #indieweb you need to check this out #foocamp (twitter.com/_/status/480769180816261121)
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@MailpileTeam @thatbrickster @smarimc there's good work towards making PGP more usable: keybase.io http://indiewebcamp.com/kirby-login-app and us, of course :) (twitter.com/_/status/480769633176535040)
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kylewm.com edited /pump.io (+91) "/* Indieweb Compatibility */ PR closed without comment :(" (view diff)
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mattl I have plenty of tools to let people get all their data out of last.fm and into their own instance
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aaronpk I might take you up on that soon
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aaronpk I'm planning on importing everything to my site at some point
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aaronpk man the gpg login option for indieauth.com is my favorite now. command-option-s to sign the selected text makes it super easy.
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rascul is the challenge always the same?
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aaronpk no
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rascul ok
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rascul not sure why i thought it might be
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aaronpk the content is mostly the same, it's only different cause if it were the same every time it'd be easier to hack it
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kylewm.com edited /pump.io (+142) "/* Indieweb Compatibility */ note about conversion to coffeescript" (view diff)
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rascul indeed
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aaronpk the challenge is actually all the login details encoded, along with a timestamp of when it was created and another random number
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rascul ahh the first few characters seem to be the same, that's probably all i was looking at
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aaronpk yeah it's actually a JWT token, so the first chunk indicate the signing mechanism used, which is always the same
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aaronpk base64_decode(eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9) = {"typ":"JWT","alg":"HS256"}
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rascul ahh ok
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aaronpk you can decode the middle chunk if you want to see what the payload is
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aaronpk separate on the periods
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rascul i logged out of wiki just so i could login again with pgp :)
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aaronpk haha
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Loqi awesome
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rascul nice that this way there's no dependency on third party auth mechanisms
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aaronpk yep!
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rascul well maybe indieauth would be third party so... no fourth party? heh
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aaronpk no, in this case indieauth is just part of the wiki
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rascul ok
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aaronpk s/indieauth/indieauth.com
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Loqi aaronpk meant to say: no, in this case indieauth.com is just part of the wiki
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aaronpk when I sign in the contents of my challenge is actually: {"me":"http://aaronparecki.com","user_id":1,"profile_id":3034,"redirect_uri":"https://indieauth.com/success","state":null,"scope":null,"nonce":865874,"created_at":1403460003}
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aaronpk but that's just implementation detail of indieauth.com
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Loqi KevinMarks: tantek left you a message on 6/21 at 10:14pm: do you have an archive page of all your #osfw3c noterlive tweets? e.g. https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/365618517070348288 and https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/365617535321780224
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aaronparecki.com edited /distributed-indieauth (-4) "link to local page" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /distributed-indieauth (-17) "/* Level 2: Enable web sign-in with your own authorization server */" (view diff)
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kylewm bnvk: Diaspora is still federated isn't it?
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kylewm i.e. can despora.de talk to other pods
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aaronpk "Despora is a server is the Diaspora-network, a so called pod. The pod can communitcate with every other pod of the Diaspora-Network and the Frendica-Network."
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kylewm thanks. I was looking at https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/198 (add support for Diaspora), and thinking Bridgy is probably overkill for that case
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bnvk kylewm: I believe it federates, I have yet to find data federated to other pods, but in all honesty I haven't really explored enough
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kylewm since you can run your own instance
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Loqi tantek: gRegor` left you a message on 6/21 at 10:37pm: I didn't have a solid answer (not very familiar with schema.org), but I said I suspect it's because mf2 have been around longer and are simpler, and tend to favor "what's actually in use" vs top-down ideas.
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gRegor` tantek: joeld did stop by chat and caught up with the chat log, but it was late, so he said he'll come back another time
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danbri how's mf2 going? are people migrating?
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KartikPrabhu danbri: people here have been using mf2 for quite sometime
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danbri the future being unevenly distributed and all that
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tantek gRegor`: glad to hear it! we should talk with joeld about what any of his particular concerns are and see if we have answers or can adapt accordingly.
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gRegor` Perhaps a /schema.org page would be a good idea? I didn't know most of what you shared in chat last night (licensing, not changing the TOS, etc)
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tantek danbri, the arc of technology adoption is long but bends inevitably towards simpler, more open approaches. we're definitely seeing that with microformats2 uptake.
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danbri rdf took it's time too
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tantek gRegor`: perhaps - it hasn't been a high priority because there's nothing enabling about that discussion
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tantek usually our wiki pages are about something that actually plays an essential role in people creating things for their own sites
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tantek not exclusively so, but emergently so, based on our priorities of selfdogfooding and scratching your own itches
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tantek could be useful for an FAQ though, maybe on the microformats.org wiki - since that's the context those questions usually come up
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tantek danbri - do you see any evidence of upswing of rdf? these days most devs haven't even heard of it, and it seems to be going the way of XML (slow descent into obscurity / enterprise maintenance - kind of like COBOL and Java)
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danbri well schema.org is rdf, so there is that
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tantek no one I know other than tommorris appears to treat it as such
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tantek all the mentions e.g. on twitter and such all imply microdata usage of schema
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danbri and I used a Java applet only this afternoon :) http://www.its.caltech.edu/~mamikon/MamiGames.html
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danbri the vocabulary's managed as an rdf schema, and generally consumed as triples
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danbri json-ld seems to be getting more attention than the rdfa flavour lately
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tantek you like to live dangerously huh? the applet runtime is among the most vulnerable and exploited from a security hole perspective in browsers
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tantek danbri - no one seems to know/care about how schema is managed (other than being Google controlled)
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danbri has two laptops
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tantek and no one seems to consume it (per the license problems) other than the oligopoly of search engines
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tantek seems like primarily an SEO publish / search engine consume ecology
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danbri yeah, pretty niche
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tantek anyway nothing much indieweb about it so it's probably offtopic for this channel. happy to continue in #microformats
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danbri going for dinner, take care
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tantek have a nice dinner danbri! perhaps see you in #microformats later on.
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danbri waves
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rascul kylewm i'm not necessarily worried about publishing the summary, i just want to extract it for use on index pages
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kylewm gotcha. i think jinja has a function to truncate at a particular word count, if you happen to be using it
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rascul it does, but it can leave tags open
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kylewm ew really
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kylewm yuck
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rascul yeah it's not really for that purpose
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rascul i think i have a solution though using beautifulsoup
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rascul grab the first 3 tags, if the third is a header, grab the next also
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rascul well the first parent tags they might be called
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rascul won't really be a summary, but will be suitable for displaying on the index page i think
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rascul instead of the entire post
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rascul !tell tantek looks like java is still popular, at least on github http://redmonk.com/dberkholz/2014/05/02/github-language-trends-and-the-fragmenting-landscape/
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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kylewm reports of Java's death are greatly exaggerated
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kylewm I use it every day
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rascul i don't believe i've used java in 2014 except on android
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rascul and only because android uses java
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KartikPrabhu hasn't written anything in JAVA in years
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rascul i had taken a java class at one time several years back, but i never wrote anything in java after that, it was just for some easy credits
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KartikPrabhu also wouldn't consider science and univ people writing java applets as usage of java. Science/univ people use a language because that is what they learnt for some reason or another.
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KartikPrabhu i know profs who still teach in FOTRAN (and refuse upgrade suggesstions) because that is the only thing they know
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rascul what's a fortran? ;)
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rascul at one point i made a half hearted attempt to learn fortran, but i didn't make it very far
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KartikPrabhu I saw a sample code and ran for my life :P
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aaronparecki.com edited /kirby-login-app (+794) "better description of alternate setup method" (view diff)
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gRegor` Trying to decide if my note permalinks should use UTC or local time for the YYYY-MM-DD format.
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gRegor` Could be confusing that a note from 2014-06-21 20:00 local time has a permalink of /2014-06-22/...
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rascul what use whatever is presented in the page else it could get silly
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gRegor` I tend to agree. Trying to avoid extra date-time juggling, if possible.
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gRegor` If I use UTC in permalinks, the query is easier. If I don't, I need to determine how to best look up those posts and deal with oddities, like DST.
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KartikPrabhu DST what a dumb thing
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gRegor` No doubt.
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rascul yeah that can get difficult, but i think it would be worth it so you don't have the date mismatches
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gRegor` I lived in Indiana for quite a while and loved not having DST, until they voted to move onto it.
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gRegor` I suppose I could just live with the permalinks being "off" for those late night posts (after 11pm) during half the year, heh.
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rascul you could also just wait until morning to post late night stuff
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KartikPrabhu ha
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gRegor` Or just include another indicator in the permalink that it is DST
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gRegor` "Can't 'tweet' for another hour, dangit."
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gRegor` :)
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rascul hehe
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KartikPrabhu or maybe you can but that hour doesn't exist!
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gRegor` permalinks: /2014-??-??/[x]
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KartikPrabhu i am not sure that post dts need to precise upto the minute/hour
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KartikPrabhu right now I am just displaying date
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gRegor` I'm talking permalinks to individual notes, not the display date-time
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gRegor` I display "June 21, 2014 8:23pm CDT" for post time.
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KartikPrabhu even there. why not just /date/(note#for that date)
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gRegor` That's what I'm talking about.
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KartikPrabhu oh ok :)
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gRegor` In UTC it would be: 2014-06-22/x. In local it would be 2014-06-21/y
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KartikPrabhu yeah but that is unaffected by DST no?
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gRegor` If I choose local it is
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KartikPrabhu oh hmmm
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gRegor` Sorry, confusing examples.
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KartikPrabhu no I understand now
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gRegor` The DST issue only comes up between 11pm - 1am local time, of course, depending on the time of year.
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gRegor` I'm pretty sure I will go that route, though.
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gRegor` Eventually maybe I'll get fancy like you and use slugs :)
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gRegor` But I want this up before next weekend
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KartikPrabhu hmmm don't know if slugs are the best way either. there was some writeup about how "date based URLs" are more robust
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gRegor` Gives a good time context, for sure
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KartikPrabhu also "slug should be human editable" can hence might change later if you are not careful
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KartikPrabhu breaking the URLs
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KartikPrabhu can not find that write up. only a little tantek voice in his head :P
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rascul my permalinks (which are also my short urls) are base62 of the published timestamp which redirect to the actual post
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rascul this way i can change slug as much as i want and the permalink stays the same
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rascul hrm but that might not work well in practice since that's not clear, i should maybe do something about that
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rascul clear to whoever is visiting the site i mean
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gRegor` looks
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gRegor` Ah, interesting.
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gRegor` That's the other thing
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gRegor` I'm trying to come up with a scheme that I don't need to change in the near future, since that will require updating my wm database, not just 301 redirects.
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gRegor` I could just go with /notes/x/ but I think I'd want to add the dates eventually. Trying to figure it out now.
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KartikPrabhu i use slugs a I find that a good slug gives a lot of info about the post and is easy to remember "article/indieweb-love-blog" than "article/2014/05/13/3" or something. I also endeavour to not change slugs and so far haven't changed any
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gRegor` I agree about slugs on articles.
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KartikPrabhu yeah notes are tricky
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gRegor` YYYY/MM/slug could work on notes
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rascul i don't plan on changing slugs, but i'm of the opinion that they should be editable and i need to accomodate for that
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gRegor` I'm also thinking my note permalinks will use hyphens instead of slashes. YYYY-MM-DD
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gRegor` Yeah, it's good forward thinking, rascul.
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rascul the slashes can make it easy to do indexes per year, month, date
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rascul if that interests you
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gRegor` Oh, hm. Good point.
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gRegor` YYYY-MM-DD/ YYYY-MM/ and YYYY/ could work?
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rascul sure, i just think YYYY/ , YYYY/MM/ and YYYY/MM/DD is easier to get indexes from by just the url (from the user)
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rascul but maybe the url isn't as important for most users as it is for mw
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rascul *me
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rascul tbh i'm more likely to look at the url than <title> heh
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KartikPrabhu agree with that
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gRegor` Yeah, the implied directories is nice. I'll probably stick with that.
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KartikPrabhu gregor`: I
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KartikPrabhu blergh
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KartikPrabhu I'm sure you've seen this: http://indiewebcamp.com/permalink#Indieweb_Practices
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gRegor` Hadn't recently, but I'm familiar with most of the patterns
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gRegor` Got it sorted. Thankfully PHP's DateTimeZone support has gotten better.
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Loqi tantek: rascul left you a message 1 hour, 44 minutes ago: looks like java is still popular, at least on github http://redmonk.com/dberkholz/2014/05/02/github-language-trends-and-the-fragmenting-landscape/
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tantek !tell rascul fascinating github charts. Knowing about the wordiness of java code, I wonder if this is a factor: "Language detection is based on lines of code" that may artificially inflate its numbers a bit.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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rascul good observation
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Loqi rascul: tantek left you a message 44 seconds ago: fascinating github charts. Knowing about the wordiness of java code, I wonder if this is a factor: "Language detection is based on lines of code" that may artificially inflate its numbers a bit.
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tantek also that would bias against C, C++, Perl since those programming cultures tend to lean towards reducing/minimizing lines of code
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rascul and if you scroll down to new users, c and c++ graphs are very similar
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tantek rascul, do you have any idea how that article http://redmonk.com/dberkholz/2014/05/02/github-language-trends-and-the-fragmenting-landscape/ is altering clipboard copy operations to add their URL?
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tantek I'm using FF and have plugins turned off etc (so it's not flash)
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tantek e.g. when I first copied that phrase I got:
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tantek Language detection is based on lines of code
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tantek Read more: http://redmonk.com/dberkholz/2014/05/02/github-language-trends-and-the-fragmenting-landscape/#ixzz35P7Jfgtn
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tantek (end of paste)
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rascul interesting, i didn't get that
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tantek clearly some js
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tantek I'd just like to know how
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rascul i'm copying from weechat on my laptop to my desktop firefox over synergy
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tantek so we can use the same method for copying fragmention links :)
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tantek just tried Safari and same result as FF
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rascul yeah i dunno that sounds weird to me
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rascul weird but interesting
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tantek.com edited /copy (+98) "could also be the clipboard operation" (view diff)
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rascul whoa 48 GET requests to 15 different domains from that redmonk page
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KartikPrabhu that page is horribly inefficient
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tantek yes I'm trying to discern *which* JS does the trick and having trouble
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rascul btw http://gtmetrix.com can be useful for optimizing page loading stuff
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tantek rascul - do you use it for your site?
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rascul i usually would but i haven't yet with rascul.io
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rascul maybe it could be good to put in the wiki? i'm not sure where to put it though
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tantek yes I was just looking
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rascul probably wouldn't hurt to have a wiki page about site performance and optimization
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tantek rascul I was similarly having trouble figuring out a place to put info about bandwidth concerns, troubleshooting, optimizing
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tantek (since I've had to deal with that the past few months a few times)
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KartikPrabhu i think /optimization sounds like a good page to have
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KartikPrabhu or /performace
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tantek where would you look first?
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KartikPrabhu i think /performance
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rascul one could also be a redirect to the other
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tantek I like /performance because it seems more focused on what we're talking about. whereas plenty of different kinds of things can be "optimized"
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KartikPrabhu yup
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rascul /performance is probably best
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tantek cool. rascul, feel free to start /performance accordingly. I'll follow your lead and add bandwidth related things there
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rascul i'll work on it in a bit, watching nascar and working on my site some right now
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tantek that reminds me
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tantek what is nascar?
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Loqi The NASCAR problem is a reference to the jumble of branding icons on websites, e.g http://indiewebcamp.com/nascar
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tantek :D
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rascul !
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KartikPrabhu ha!
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tantek.com edited /NASCAR_problem (+6) "bolden dfn, mv see also to end" (view diff)
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rascul it is quite accurate in regard to all the decals on the cars and all
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tantek rascul, briansuda and I had created a Wikipedia article about it but it got deleted.
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rascul them wikipedia editors are picky about what gets through
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tantek so now we document this stuff here
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tantek looks like that redmonk article is using tynt
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tantek rascul - some are picky, others are deletionists
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rascul that jumble of icons that /nascar is about bothers me, that's why the only icons on my site are on my h-card
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rascul eh, icons to other third party stuff, but also (at least for now) icons period
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KartikPrabhu has no third party icons!
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KartikPrabhu must fix dependence on silos for commenter avatars though
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tantek ok just added tcr.tynt.com^ to my AdBlock Plus filters - because apparently tynt does nasty tracking code stuff as well as put the URL at the end of text you copy
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tantek now looking for an indieweb-friendly way of doing the same thing (i.e. no tracking codes)
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tantek this looks like an approach to just doing the URL appending to the copy (without the nasty tynt tracking stuff) http://www.jitbit.com/alexblog/230-javascript-injecting-extra-info-to-copy-pasted-text/
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JonathanNeal tantek: that trick with adding things to the clipboard is sneaky.
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tantek JonathanNeal: do you have a recommended way of doing it?
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JonathanNeal as I recall, it has to do with listening for events and adding hidden tags inside the selection.
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tantek I think it could be very handy for adding fragmention citations of copied text
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JonathanNeal I had reverse engineered the common library folks use for that, but I’ll have to look around again.
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tantek do you have a working version?
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tantek none of the online tutorials on it that I've found have *working* examples (e.g. in latest FF)
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tantek something that doesn't depend on jQuery
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JonathanNeal http://www.wpbeginner.com/wp-tutorials/how-to-add-a-read-more-link-to-copied-text-in-wordpress/
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JonathanNeal Or http://stackoverflow.com/questions/17175735/add-extra-info-copyright-notice-read-more-link-to-copied-text-and-preserve-for
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tantek yeah I walked through all the stackoverflow stuff to no avail
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JonathanNeal I could write you a little JS library for this, if you liked.
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tantek lots of 404s and non-working code
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JonathanNeal I shall start a project and investigate.
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tantek JonathanNeal that would be great! I think for copying citations it would be quite handy
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tantek (as opposed to say, having tweet buttons for each paragraph)
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tantek JonathanNeal: this article (that you pointed out) looks the most recent / potentially reliable - I would start trying out a code library from there: http://www.wpbeginner.com/wp-tutorials/how-to-add-a-read-more-link-to-copied-text-in-wordpress/
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tantek !tell aaronpk what I meant about twtr.io is perhaps trim an extra ")" from the end of the path before attempting to resolve the newbase60 encoded tweet ID?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk ah yeah that'd be good
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Loqi aaronpk: tantek left you a message 2 minutes ago: what I meant about twtr.io is perhaps trim an extra ")" from the end of the path before attempting to resolve the newbase60 encoded tweet ID?
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JonathanNeal Okay, I have it working in Chrome and Firefox, but give me another minute to clean things up.
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tantek.com edited /citation (+679) "add User Interface section with text input and append subsections" (view diff)
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tantek JonathanNeal: great!
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tantek bbiab
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JonathanNeal I would almost like to make it only apply to when text is selected from within a node with a certain attribute.
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KartikPrabhu such as "citable" ?
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KartikPrabhu how would that scope though? for instance if <p citable> <span>Some text</span> </p> ... ?
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tantek.com edited /citation (+551) "/* append to text selection copy */ another source, document criticism and warning" (view diff)
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tantek JonathanNeal: maybe only for text inside the p-content or e-content in the h-entry?
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KartikPrabhu tantek: might not be ideal to tie this to mf2...
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tantek KartikPrabhu: attributes are basically what those are
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tantek or you could just make it configurable by class name too
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KartikPrabhu hmm true
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tantek so users of the script could easily pick uf2 class names
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tantek or their own
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tantek since pretty much everyone has class names on various elements in their posts already for other reasons
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KartikPrabhu thinks more
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tantek re-use existing structure rather than adding more
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aaronpk tantek: twtr.io is updated!
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tantek sweet!
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JonathanNeal Yes, I can make it work from within anything. Okay, it’s working. Deciding on how to format the text and the fragmention.
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tantek nice!
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gRegor` catches up
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gRegor` Hmm. If I'm copying text, I get annoyed if extra content is added like that. I've seen it on several news sites / blogs.
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KartikPrabhu gregor`: it need not be triggered on text copy. for instance a small button could poup saying "cite" or something ala Medium
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gRegor` Oh, ok. That makes more sense.
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KartikPrabhu I think that is how I would do it, if I implemented this.
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JonathanNeal You could have an area that says “Citation is [enabled|disabled]"
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KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal: on the whole I agree with gregor` that if a website does unexpected things with browser defaults I get pretty annoyed. Maybe the script to be made to attach to diff. events customizable by the content author?
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GWG sighs
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gRegor` What's up, GWG?
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GWG My employee gives me a Juniper VPN router to connect to their network
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GWG It somehow spontaneously factory reset while I was out
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JonathanNeal KartikPrabhu: help me understand what you want and I’ll try to make it.
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KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal: My thought was as follows: Reader selects some text on a site, and a little pop-up button says "Copy Citation". On clicking that the text with a fragmention is copied to clipboard. Someone else could set a similar function on "Ctrl+C" or some other event. So the "copy text+fragmention" javascript could be an independent function that could be triggered on some author-customised event
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JonathanNeal KartikPrabhu: I think I can do that for you. Okay.
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KartikPrabhu sweet! :D
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GWG KartikPrabhu: Did you ever decide where you are staying for East?
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KartikPrabhu GWG: staying around Midtown in Club Quarters
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GWG Ok
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JonathanNeal Sorry, I keep refactoring the whole library.
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KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal: of course there is no hurry. In fact I am astonished by you JS writing speed...
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JonathanNeal I am wondering if it should just be something you can do with the range object.
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JonathanNeal But you can see the work so far @ http://sandbox.thewikies.com/copy-citation/example.html
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KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal: here is my attempt. https://kartikprabhu.com/static/demo/fragmention.html#Getting+up+early+all+the+time%22,+he+though The script I wrote is also inline at the bototm of the page, using range
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KartikPrabhu this only makes a fragmention link, no actual citation
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JonathanNeal Right.
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KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal: I think the script should only make a citation or just a fragmention link and it could be upto the author to do the correct button placements and all that
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JonathanNeal How are you attaching the event that creates that div?
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JonathanNeal Ah, I see, touchend, mouseup
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KartikPrabhu yeah... that is the best I could comeup with. There does not seem to be "onSelect" or something