#indiewebcamp 2014-07-01

2014-07-01 UTC
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@domenicoperri Here's the day 2 photo from #indiewebcamp west! - Aaron Parecki http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2014/06/30/1/indiewebcamp (twitter.com/_/status/483762474790187012)
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@domenicoperri RT @aaronpk: Here's the day 2 photo from #indiewebcamp west! https://twitter.com/aaronpk/status/483670849723977729/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/483762752843177985)
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@HongPong RT @benwerd: Rushing the street: building our #indieweb business http://werd.io/2014/rushing-the-street-building-our-indieweb-business (twitter.com/_/status/483762919222411264)
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tantek ooh
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@kid_OYO @benwerd excited to see all this "partnering" of efforts...synergy with #DoOO and #indieweb our #iiw seed plantings have roots! ht @NZN (twitter.com/_/status/483764765571825667)
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aaronpk tantek: yeah she got a great shot!
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KartikPrabhu wait did someone use "synergy" and "indieweb" in the same tweet! :P
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bret be nice ;)
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KartikPrabhu ok :)
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snarfed.org edited /events/2014-07-02-homebrew-website-club (+23) "/* RSVP */" (view diff)
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snarfed.org edited /events/2014-07-02-homebrew-website-club (+0) "/* RSVP */" (view diff)
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kartikprabhu.com edited /events/2014-07-02-homebrew-website-club (+43) "/* RSVP */ added me to Chicago" (view diff)
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@billywwells New Billy Wells Horror Book Trailer! https://www.youtube.com/ #horror #kindle #zombies #ebooks #scarystoriestime #amazon #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/483772350626672640)
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kylewm !tell tantek could you clarify something from this morning -- do I need permission from everyone that I screenshotted on http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/Design_Elements
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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GWG Hello, kylewm
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kylewm hey GWG, I'm just about to head out the door but i'll be back on shortly
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GWG Ok
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Loqi benwerd: aaronpk left you a message 6 hours, 16 minutes ago: can you tell me what sort of string encoding settings you have in your php and mysql that didn't crash on my emoji post?
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Loqi benwerd: tantek left you a message 1 hour, 2 minutes ago: really hoping you can make it Wednesday night to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-07-02-homebrew-website-club and perhaps even make an IndieEvent and POSSE to FB Event as well? Thank you in advance!
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benwerd aaronpk: just checked, it's just utf8_general_ci and InnoDB
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aaronpk rwar
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: fwiw: that is also the one I use in my MySQL DB
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benwerd aaronpk: I'm on PHP Version 5.5.6 fwiw
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benwerd maybe a fix there for some reason?
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@withknown David Wiley (@opencontent) wrote a lovely post on Known, the #indieweb, and education technology: http://opencontent.org/blog/archives/3393 (twitter.com/_/status/483778811213787136)
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@erinjo RT @withknown: David Wiley (@opencontent) wrote a lovely post on Known, the #indieweb, and education technology: http://opencontent.org/blog/archives/3393 (twitter.com/_/status/483779069570330624)
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@ak2webd3 RT @withknown: David Wiley (@opencontent) wrote a lovely post on Known, the #indieweb, and education technology: http://opencontent.org/blog/archives/3393 (twitter.com/_/status/483779138629959680)
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KartikPrabhu anyone have recommedations for good license for the marginalia.js ?
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bret ngoldman, what was the name of that sublime text theme that you were using?
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aaronpk KartikPrabhu: BSD, MIT or Apache would be my preference
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KartikPrabhu hmm thanks will look into those
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aaronpk also see http://indiewebcamp.com/licensing
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ngoldman bret: http://kkga.github.io/spacegray/
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: that page might be more helpful with some advice about which licenses are good for which type of projects
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bret ngoldman++ purrrrdy
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Loqi ngoldman has 396 karma
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ngoldman woot my loqi karma carries over in all the places
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bret damn, you a karma gangster
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aaronparecki.com edited /licensing (+0) "/* External Links */ typo" (view diff)
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kylewm.com edited /licensing (+27) "/* Permissive */ added myself to BSD" (view diff)
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kylewm peat: any reason for choosing Foundation rather than Bootstrap for the wiki redesign? some discussion this weekend got me interested in trying to learn one or both
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rascul foundation is good
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aaronpk are you implying bootstrap is not good?
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bret bootstrap is less, foundation is sass…. thats like the dividing line right?
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aaronpk i'm sure they are way more different than that
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KartikPrabhu hmmm frameworks
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kylewm so if bootstrap is less and less is more and more's the merrier...
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rascul aaronpk no not intentionally
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rascul they're both good
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bret im tangled in bootstrap, doesn't feel good
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GWG I just joined the bootstrapping
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rascul i mean, as far as big and heavy css frameworks go they're good
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rascul big thing awhile back was that bootstrap is for less and foundation is for sass but iirc bootstrap is sassed up now too
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aaronpk i've been using bootstrap since they launched, the most annoying part is they keep changing everything every major version so you hve to re-learn the whole thing
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bret ^^^^
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rascul bootstrap is obviously the more popular one, sometimes popularity is a turn off for people
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kylewm it was a little bit eye opening seeing how polished the demos that used it looked
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GWG I just am trying to lower the bar. I'm not a designer per se
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bret i ate my pizza before it was cool man
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rascul i've used both and been happy with both when i wanted a big and heavy css framework
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aaronpk yeah i like using frameworks like that because i don't have to fiddle with css all day long and i still get something that looks ok
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kylewm cool
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aaronpk does foundation have "widgets" like bootstrap does?
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aaronpk i like that about bootstrap
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rascul yes
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rascul http://foundation.zurb.com/
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kylewm !tell peat, skinny I love the wiki redesign by the way. i was a little bit floored when it was unveiled :)
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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kylewm (skinny == Crystal right?)
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aaronpk yeah
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aaronpk tho I don't actually remember what irc nick she uses
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GWG I built a feature with bootstrap, and then rebuilt it without it. Bootstrap was easier
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kylewm.com edited /selfdogfood (+206) "/* Discussion */ added suggestions i heard at iwc" (view diff)
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rascul lately i just write the css myself
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rascul the amount of time i spend tweaking bootstrap and hacking up my html to make bootstrap do what i want is about the amount of time writing the css myself
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aaronpk huh, i have not found that to be true for myself
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GWG rascul: Would not say I would disagree 100%
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rascul and the end result makes cleaner html because i'm not stuck with how they want it structured and i don't have a crap ton of classes all over the place
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rascul but to each his/her own :)
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kylewm absolutely
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GWG rascul: Well, I was inspired by reading pfefferle's code. He did something that I plan to do in that regard.
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GWG I looked at simpler frameworks and philosophies. I thought I'd go mainstream
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kylewm I suspect it takes as much skill/time to make bootstrap look not totally bootstrappy as it would to write up stuff from scratch
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Loqi tantek: kylewm left you a message 1 hour, 2 minutes ago: could you clarify something from this morning -- do I need permission from everyone that I screenshotted on http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/Design_Elements
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GWG kylewm: Does my site and test site look bootstrappy?
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rascul i've also been writing css since before bootstrap i know it pretty well
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kylewm maybe skill/knowledge rather than skill/time
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tantek kylewm - well, you need permission to upload stuff you didn't create yourself and can't put into the public domain
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kylewm blargh
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kylewm I can't just say hand wave "fair use"?
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rascul using sass though because nesting and variables make all the difference
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aaronparecki.com created /User:Aaronparecki.com/common.css (+37) "testing user stylesheet" (view diff)
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kylewm GWG: no I don't think your site looks bootstrappy, nor emmak's
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tantek kylewm - good question
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GWG rascul: So have I. I just want to not focus as much on certain things right now
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tantek safer to simply ask people you know for permission, or ask them to upload!
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GWG kylewm: The description of my styling is 'minimal'
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GWG Of course, I wrote the description.
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rascul btw http://bootswatch.com/
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kylewm thanks tantek, I will definitely at least ask bnvk and psyhigh/Darin
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tantek kylewm - asking also shows respect
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rascul GWG rascul.io first had bootstrap when i was designing it
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tantek consent and all that good stuff
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rascul because i wanted to easily play with different ideas
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rascul then when i got farther along i wrote the css for it the way i wanted it
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GWG rascul: I'm trying to create a Wordpress theme that is universal enough, it can have child themes forked off of it that look very different, but it can work on its own as a minimal site.
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rascul sounds like a good idea
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GWG rascul: Mostly because I have a tendency to move things around a lot. I need to build for that
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GWG rascul: So, every time I hack away at it, I turn another piece into an independent portion
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GWG So, last week, after looking at Sempress, which is the only fully mf2 theme I know of, I ripped my theme into four more pieces, inspired by what the author did. Of course, he only had 2 pieces...
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rascul also i didn't want to pull in a bunch of big external stuff for rascul.io i wanted to keep everything small
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rascul iirc my js is about 10 lines and no jquery (but i messed up the html for it, i need to fix that)
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GWG rascul: I have a project I need JS for, but I never learned much of it. I guess I'll have to.
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rascul i don't really know js that good, it's just that most languages i can easily get the grasp of and js is mostly easy for me in that regard
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kartikprabhu.com edited /annotation (+477) "added indieweb usage and code" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu take that "annotations" indieweb example FTW!
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tantek KartikPrabhu: might as well put the date on there too
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tantek like other IndieWeb Examples sections
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KartikPrabhu oh h,mm yeah since...
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tantek.com edited /annotation (+4) "/* Indieweb Examples */ subheads" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /annotation (+7) "subheading levels" (view diff)
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kartikprabhu.com edited /annotation (+17) "/* Indieweb Examples */ add date" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu tantek: FYI also fixed the marginalia code to "move" the comments so they do not repeat at the bototm
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tantek brilliant!
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tantek that way general article comments are easier to find in the footer
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tantek rather than being overwhelmed with marginalia
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KartikPrabhu tantek: yes. JonathanNeal expressed similar feelings and I agree :) also the code is easier ;)
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tantek cool!
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tantek next look into using :target to style showing/hiding marginalia
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tantek with the show/hide "buttons" being links to fragement identifiers of the individual marginalia divs to show/hide
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tantek battery low - bbiab
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kylewm we should have done a proxy demo of marginalia in PDX! I know Bret and I showed it to lots of ppl 1 on 1 at least
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Loqi yea
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: thanks! :) I'd like to see other UI/UX implementations. the JS allows you to have your own UI style!
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aaronpk peat: I can't figure out how the user style stuff works so i'm hacking around it
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KartikPrabhu !tell benwerd, enrinjo if possible I'd like to take a shot at making a Known theme :) how do I do that?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk peat: ok if you make a stylesheet called peat.org/indiewebcamp.css you'll see those styles applied to the wiki when signed in
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: this is custom styles to the wiki from your own domain?
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aaronpk yeah lol
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aaronpk user-specific
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: dope! does this not have some cross-site security implications?
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aaronpk well you're the only one who will see it
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aaronpk hm now I want to do that to my site too... so you can apply your own stylesheet to my site!
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aaronpk lol!
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aaronpk i could always include a style tag referencing yoursite.com/user-styles/aaronparecki.com.css
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aaronpk then other people could do it too and you'd end up with a folder of peoples styles that you override
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aaronpk that would be hilarious
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@kartik_prabhu marginalia.js is now #opensource at https://github.com/kartikprabhu/marginalia Go make your own #indieweb #annotations (https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/marginalia-github) (twitter.com/_/status/483814732705439746)
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: lol!
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Loqi benwerd: KartikPrabhu left you a message 39 minutes ago: if possible I'd like to take a shot at making a Known theme :) how do I do that?
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benwerd KartikPrabhu: Awesome! It's pretty easy. I'll write up some better documentation tonight and give you a ping when it's up.
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KartikPrabhu benwerd: nice! thanks :) just something to distract me from python and javascript :)
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KartikPrabhu great work with known btw!
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benwerd KartikPrabhu: Thank you! And delighted to be a distraction :) I'm about to eat some food but I've opened my text editor and will write something down straight afterwards.
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KartikPrabhu no hurry! thanks :)
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Loqi peat: kylewm left you a message 2 hours, 41 minutes ago: I love the wiki redesign by the way. i was a little bit floored when it was unveiled :)
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Loqi binbasti: tantek left you a message 5 hours, 28 minutes ago: I'd like to see the /store effort follow webapps wg manifest as well.
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Loqi benward: tantek left you a message 12 hours, 26 minutes ago: hope you can make it this Wednesday evening @MozSF! http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-07-02-homebrew-website-club
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Loqi binbasti: tantek left you a message 5 hours, 20 minutes ago: does your personal site have a manifest that allows it to be installed as a webapp?
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Loqi binbasti: bnvk left you a message 5 hours, 19 minutes ago: my efforts with the /store are NOT relating to client side app stores, webapp !== client side (html5 + js) only apps, I'm not focusing on server side apps that are installed on hardware that is available to the web- think an open source cPannel for self hosting. Look at the platforms and "Platforms" documented on the page
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Loqi binbasti: bnvk left you a message 4 hours, 56 minutes ago: hopefully we can link up in real time and chat stores and stuff- I'm a big fan of what you did with 5 Apps
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JonathanNeal KartikPrabhu: have a chance to review this marginalia markup? https://gist.github.com/jonathantneal/cf8ea5ff0cafd72e3688
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KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal: looking now
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KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal: why not use a list with <li> for each <article> ? At least that is what I'm using
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KartikPrabhu but the mf2 looks sound
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KartikPrabhu oh except you might want to have <article class="p-comment h-entry"> so that it is regarded as a comment of the original h-entry post
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KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal: also to combine it with the marginalia.js you might want to take a look at this: https://github.com/kartikprabhu/marginalia/blob/master/README.md
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JonathanNeal KartikPrabhu: Not everything ordered is a list. An story is a series of paragraphs in a certain order, but it is not a list. To be a list, it requires intent to explicitely communicate the order of the items and their connection with each other.
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JonathanNeal In this instance, the comments are ordered, absolutely, but they are not intended to be a list.
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KartikPrabhu I see. makes sense.
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KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal: I might need to make the marginalia.js more adaptable to other markups then
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@donniecopeland @indiewebcamp Arkansas' indie band @KnoxHamilton #workitout #7 this week @altnation #alt18 please retweet to help to top 5 (twitter.com/_/status/483838758618673152)
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KartikPrabhu spammer ^^
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JonathanNeal KartikPrabhu: I still need to look at what data indie comments give you.
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KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal: the working version on my site has 1. Author info like name and all that 2. type of response as in "reply" or "like" 3. date 4. content of the response 5. the URL replied to including fragmention if any 6. source of original reply
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JonathanNeal I’m a little confused by u-in-reply-to. Isn’t it normally more than the fragmention? How do I distinguish them from non-fragmentions comments?
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JonathanNeal Again, I’m looking for code examples. Sorry, I am very used to an MDN way of learning things.
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KartikPrabhu u-in-reply-to usually is the full URL of the post, but microformats parsers automatically make an absolute url if there is a relative one so I only need to put the fragmention part in the HTML
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KartikPrabhu the relative > absolute is true of any u-* property parsing
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KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal: here is the example: http://indiewebcamp.com/comments-presentation#empty_in-reply-to_inside_comments admittedly the wiki code examples are a bit scattered
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KartikPrabhu note that I am not using the "empty in-reply-to" method but I adapted it for fragmentions :)
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KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal: hopefully I'm making sense...
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KartikPrabhu and we should definitely improve the wiki page using this discussion
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Loqi chrissaad: tantek left you a message on 6/30 at 8:56am: hope you can make it this Wednesday evening @MozSF! http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-07-02-homebrew-website-club
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JonathanNeal There’s nothing about the service (via SomeIndieApp) on http://indiewebcamp.com/comments or http://indiewebcamp.com/comments-presentation am I looking at the right place to know how those fit into the comment?
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KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal: oh you mean the part where someone notifies you of a comment?
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KartikPrabhu or just marginalia in particular?
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JonathanNeal One of the fields you are displaying is the service used to send the comment.
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JonathanNeal Oh, maybe I misunderstood. It’s the site where it came from?
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KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal: yes! that is the site where the comment originates. So for indiewebsites it shows the domain name. But then bridgy (http://indiewebcamp.com/bridgy) also allows you to get comments from Twitter and Google+ and also FB
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JonathanNeal I saw something from Twitter, which is why I thought it was “service”. My bad.
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KartikPrabhu in that case it shows that service name. I am merely truncating the "original url" to the domain name for display :)
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KartikPrabhu yeah that service is https://www.brid.gy/ by snarfed
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KartikPrabhu it scrapes your Twitter/Google+ if you sign up and sends webmentions for comments from there
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KartikPrabhu but in either case you get a webmention from a microformat-markedup page so you can use the microformats to decide the "source url"
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JonathanNeal but only one link is sent, which is the link to the author’s site?
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KartikPrabhu yes that is webmention. but bridgy send the url permalink of the Twitter/Google+ post
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KartikPrabhu but all of that funkiness should be handled by the author's backend not the marginalia/fragmention code
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KartikPrabhu now that I am explaning this, I realise that there are a lot of moving parts to my comments+marginalia stuff
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JonathanNeal Yes. I just spent the last few mentions explaining webmentions and fragmentions and marginalia to my non-tech wife.
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KartikPrabhu nice! did it work? I am interested in the problem of explaining these things to my friends too
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JonathanNeal She gets it, which means it’s a good idea. I had to gloss over how it works since I don’t exactly understand the mechanics of webmentions yet. I said it’s basically webpage A sending something to webpage B, which now has the option of sharing it.
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KartikPrabhu yup! basically a notification "hey I have linked to your post"
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bear I found that webmentions are so very basic that I was tending to over explain them
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bear and that it's only some of the odd edge cases that made me do that - the core of it is easily grok'd IMO
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KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal: here was my attempt at a non-technical explanation: https://kartikprabhu.com/article/indieweb-love-blog##provided+by+webmention
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KartikPrabhu bear: fyi I am working on your "marginalia icon colour" issue now. Might trouble you for feedback
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JonathanNeal Are you running an older version of fragmention.js? I noticed the second # was escaped which caused it not to work.
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bear always
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KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal: weird! it works on my browser and IRC client...
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JonathanNeal Mine is turned into #%23provided+by+webmention
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KartikPrabhu strange
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bear same for me on safari
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KartikPrabhu blergh! more edge cases.
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bear when clicked on via Textual
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bear when clicked on viewing irc log from chrome - ##
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bear and same with FF - ##
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KartikPrabhu yeah... seems some IRC clients are "too compatible with spec" for such things
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JonathanNeal fragmention.js handles the escaping, but for some reason, i’m not getting fragmentions on your site. huh.
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JonathanNeal Oh yea, you need to update fragmention.js to support async load. You are loading the script async.
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benwerd KartinPrabhu: a start on theme documentation: http://docs.withknown.com/en/latest/developers/themes/introduction.html
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JonathanNeal http://viewsource.in/kartikprabhu.com/article/indieweb-love-blog#L616
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KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal: that could be a old version issue. yes I haven't done the async stuff! my bad...
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KartikPrabhu benwerd: awesome!
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JonathanNeal KartikPrabhu: suppose you could share some sample data you get during a webmention and I can reverse engineer it to understand it better?
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KartikPrabhu is glad that known themes have minimal PHP which I am surely not proefficient in :)
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bear KartikPrabhu - leave me a note about what to review for colour stuff, i'm heading to bed and i'll catch up tomorrow
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KartikPrabhu bear: sure thing :)
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bear ta
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KartikPrabhu tata!
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@matemaz If you want to keep in control of your (digital) life join us the 4th of July in Brighton for https://indietech.org/summit/ #indieweb #freedom (twitter.com/_/status/483856391434960896)
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Loqi cweiske: tantek left you a message 7 hours, 21 minutes ago: in conversation earlier today with binbasti you said "people here are somehow allergic to the w3 and working groups that produce no working code" - I don't think that is a fair generalization, nor is it reasonable to paint everyone with that brush. If you have specific concerns about specific specs/people, please raise them directly with them.
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@matemaz pour rester en contrôle de notre vie (digitale) venez ou suivez https://indietech.org/summit/ #indieweb #freedom (twitter.com/_/status/483856890007670784)
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KartikPrabhu !tell bear: more "accessible" marginalia icons updated: https://kartikprabhu.com/article/marginalia##that+part+of+the+post might need hard referesh of the CSS. should be a 'hollow' icon when deactivated and on showing marginalia should turn solid and green. but solid is enough :)
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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KartikPrabhu last thought of the day. In a webmention if the "target" has a fragmention, then the "source" is some marginalia. But what happens if the "source" has a fragmention? can anything coll be done with that?
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KartikPrabhu s/coll/cool
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Loqi KartikPrabhu meant to say: last thought of the day. In a webmention if the "target" has a fragmention, then the "source" is some marginalia. But what happens if the "source" has a fragmention? can anything cool be done with that?
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cweiske KartikPrabhu, theoretically you have to extract the microformats from the child elements of the element with that id
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cweiske so that one can have a huge page with all notes/comments
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cweiske and not single urls for each of them
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KartikPrabhu cweiske: that seems like a convenience for the "source". I there some cool UI stuff the "target" can do?
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cweiske you could use that to make annotations/notes to specific paragraphs of a blog post for example
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cweiske like mention.com allows
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KartikPrabhu Barnaby Walters had this great idea of using fragmentions in reply-contexts to get good blurbs to display
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cweiske yep
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KartikPrabhu cweiske: the annotations to a specifi paragraph I've already done :)
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cweiske but you don't display the comments at that place already, do you?
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KartikPrabhu I do! https://kartikprabhu.com/article/marginalia hackery from indiewebcamp over this weekend
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KartikPrabhu look for paragraphs with a little "comment" icon in the end
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cweiske ah
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cweiske didn't see them
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KartikPrabhu :)
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KartikPrabhu now I am wondering what could I do if the "source" in the webmention has a fragmention
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KartikPrabhu ok off to bed!
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@agence50A La suite : et si un indiewebcamp était organisé par 50A á Paris très bientôt ? Vous en dites quoi ? (twitter.com/_/status/483889136135585792)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/chloeweil/483748813270560769/2788841 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014#East_Photos (webmention)
dreeves, dybskiy, jsilvestre, bnvk, Rev_Illo, bnvk1, terminal2, pbeaulieu, brianloveswords, GWG, Sebastien-L, friedcell, shepazu, adactio_, chloeweil, chloeweil_, adactio, chrissaad and snarfed joined the channel
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@billywwells New Billy Wells Horror Book Trailer! https://www.youtube.com/ #horror #kindle #zombies #ebooks #scarystoriestime #amazon #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/483987200514609153)
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bigbluehat jden: sometime I'd love your thoughts on userinfo.me seems (from last night's chatter) you know the space well :)
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cweiske bigbluehat, do you know about webfinger?
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bigbluehat cweiske: yep.
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bigbluehat had this idea long before that, though
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bigbluehat they could solve the same problem
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cweiske you try to solve the same problem
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bigbluehat but I think userinfo.me is simpler and more obvious
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cweiske and it breaks all applications that use http basic auth
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bigbluehat it doesn't actually
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bigbluehat just applications that allowed their users to set blank passwords
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bigbluehat additionally, the parsing (which needs fixing) should handle *just* usernames in the userinfo me section
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cweiske so I have an application that supports http basic auth running on my domain. how am I supposed to add support to userinfo.me?
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bigbluehat the blank password thing is a fall back
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cweiske I have to modify the application logic
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bigbluehat userinfo.me only covers the root URL
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cweiske I know
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bigbluehat if I send you a password, log me in
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bigbluehat if I don't, tell me about the user
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cweiske I have to modify the application logic
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bigbluehat not necessarily
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cweiske only if my CMS runs on a /path/
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bigbluehat you can setup nginx, apache, or whoever, to catch blank password requests
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bigbluehat or your CMS could fall back to userinfo.me if no password is sent
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cweiske have fun with that.
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cweiske so I have to modify the application logic
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bigbluehat only if you want these features :)
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bigbluehat same as anything else
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bigbluehat you just handle blank passwords differently than Not Authorized
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cweiske no. webfinger only requires me to put a script (or even static files) in a defined location
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bigbluehat and only at the root URL
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cweiske on any server
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bigbluehat same for userinfo.me
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cweiske no. I need to modify my web server's configuration
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bigbluehat but ideally, it would be part of CMS's
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cweiske so we're back to my original statement
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bigbluehat well...however you want to look at it :)
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cweiske userinfo.me is much harder to setup than webfinger
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bigbluehat atm, yes
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cweiske webfinger is a standard
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bigbluehat what CMS do you use?
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bigbluehat sure
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cweiske that does not matter
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bigbluehat userinfo.me isn't...yet :)
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bigbluehat well, it does if I were to write a script for it ^_^
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cweiske the approach you're using is much harder to implement than dropping a file into .well-known/
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bigbluehat right. I'm asking more of the Web (both client and server) I realize
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jonnybarnes I like that having set MySQL to use utf8mb4 my website Just Works™ with emoji
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aaronpk shoot, I just realized I can't host homebrew website club for the next 2 weeks
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aaronpk dietrich_: are you available tomorrow and/or jul 16 to host at mozpdx?
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jden re get user info, we already have a long-running way to address users on http sites: http://foo.org/~jden
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jden e.g, npm uses it: http://npm.im/~jden
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aaronpk most sites don't use the ~ anymore tho
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aaronpk twitter.com/aaronpk github.com/aaronpk etc
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bnvk oh the dang tilda
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bnvk I love how it looks, but feels so cryptic in URLs
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snarfed we need a tilda swinton emoji
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snarfed then the URLs could be site.com/:tilda_swinton:bnvk
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@veganstraightedge Here's me and @notenoughneon playing my favorite Pac-Man game after #indiewebcamp 2014 PDX. https://flickr.com/photos/aaronpk/14521484626/ /by @aaronpk (twitter.com/_/status/484025560771727360)
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@veganstraightedge And more #indiewebcamp 2014 PDX photos. https://www.flickr.com/photos/aaronpk/sets/72157645005699288 /by @aaronpk (twitter.com/_/status/484025949046837248)
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Loqi gRegor`: bret left you a message on 6/30 at 11:30am: btw thanks for being such an awesome note taker this weekend! really great notes from the sessions you were at
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@indieboxproject An #IndieBox was spotted at #IndieWebCamp https://www.flickr.com/photos/aaronpk/14528325264/in/set-72157645005699288 #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/484032002249609217)
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gregorlove.com edited /events/2014-07-02-homebrew-website-club (+13) "/* RSVP */" (view diff)
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@jalbertbowdenii own cloud - web services, and your documents, back under your control https://owncloud.org/ #ownyourdata #freesoftware #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/484038100541534208)
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gRegor` bret: Glad to. Except for the activism session the end of the day, when I was quickly fading. :)
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gRegor` (Re: note-taking)
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KartikPrabhu gregor`: doing a HWC tomorrow?
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gRegor` Yep, RSVPed a bit ago
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KartikPrabhu aah cool!
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KartikPrabhu seems like the Chicago invasion was successful ;)
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aaronparecki.com edited /2014/fix-the-indiewebcamp-wiki (+1852) "copy notes from etherpad" (view diff)
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cweiske aaronpk, did you work on distributed-auth integration in indieauth.com?
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@kevinmarks If gawker bans staffers from internal chat so they can publish it, will they go to snapchat/secret or to #indieweb? http://www.niemanlab.org/2014/07/never-go-another-day-without-knowing-what-gawkers-staff-is-eating-for-lunch/ (twitter.com/_/status/484046273721286656)
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aaronparecki.com edited /2014/fix-the-indiewebcamp-wiki (+0) "fix lists" (view diff)
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aaronpk cweiske: i'm about 80% finished with it
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cweiske coolio
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aaronpk ended up working on the indie-reader this weekend instead of finishing it
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cweiske how does a reader app authenticate on a website so that it can see the private posts that are meant for the user that owns the reader app?
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aaronpk we haven't gotten there yet :)
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aaronpk but i'd imagine the reader would obtain an access token for the other site
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aaronpk that's one level away from how we normally use indieauth, currently the user's browser obtains an access token to someone else's site. in this case the reader app would be obtaining an access token.
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aaronpk we haven't had to address this yet because only a few people publish private/restricted posts, it's not a very high priority for many people it seems.
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@elliottucker RT @kevinmarks: If gawker bans staffers from internal chat so they can publish it, will they go to snapchat/secret or to #indieweb? http://… (twitter.com/_/status/484047820501311488)
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aaronpk cweiske: if you start publishing posts that I can only see if I authenticate to your site, then I may have sufficient motivation to figure out how to get my reader to do it
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cweiske I won't do that in the coming year
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aaronpk I may, actually. I already have private posts, but I'm missing a customized feed based on the signed-in user.
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aaronpk I've been slowly building up the dependencies to support it, so I'm getting close
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kartikprabhu.com edited /User:Kartikprabhu.com (+140) "/* Itching */ notifications, avatar cache" (view diff)
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gRegor` KartikPrabhu: Yeah! Had a great time
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kartikprabhu.com edited /User:Kartikprabhu.com (+110) "/* Indie Projects */ ad marginalia" (view diff)
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cweiske KartikPrabhu, didn't you also implement indieauth?
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KartikPrabhu cweiske: implement in what sense?
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cweiske that someone can login to you homepage with it
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KartikPrabhu aah no unfortunately not. also I don't seem to have many use cases for that yet
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JonPincus @aaronpk i am thinking about publishing private posts with visibility based on the signed-in user. of course a first step before that is to support indieauth login :)
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cweiske aaronpk, did you ever have a look at the CAS protocol? it's 95% compatible with your indieauth protocol invention and defines some other features like autologin
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aaronpk hm I'll have to look at it again. I did some SSO stuff with CAS on a few sites
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gRegor` Any ideas why my avatar URL is wonky here? http://bret.io/2014/06/15/likes/ Looks like my author URL "http://gregorlove.com" is prepended to it, but the avatar is already the full URL
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gRegor` I think my h-card is correct: http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fgregorlove.com%2Fnotes%2F2014%2F06%2F28%2F1%2F
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bret gRegor`yes, because I broke it
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bret and there MIGHT be an issue with the way webmention.io parses
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bret basically that needs like a few hours of work and I haven't been sufficiently motivated because im working on a way to get that data into the actual html
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kylewm gRegor`: you can see the webmention.io output here http://webmention.io/api/mentions?target=http://bret.io/2014/06/15/likes/
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kylewm ha but yes, i guess this line is doing it in the js var avatar = apiData.links[index].data.author.url + apiData.links[index].data.author.photo || null;
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bret i tried it, broke it, then had to go like, make dinner
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kylewm hugs python's urllib.parse.urljoin
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KartikPrabhu hugs python's urlparse.urljoin
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kylewm bret: IMO though file a bug with webmention.io
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kylewm it should be giving you absolute urls
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kylewm turns his nose up at KartikPrabhu's Python 2 modules
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KartikPrabhu thanks kylewm for py3 shims in mf2py ;)
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kylewm awww
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KartikPrabhu fighting hate with love :P
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gRegor` Hm, interesting.
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gRegor` Why did your avatar not break on there, kylewm?
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kylewm mine h-card photo is a relative URL
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gRegor` Ahh
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bret shouldnt you all be using python 3 for your fun projects?
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KartikPrabhu bret: yes. And I plan on migrating. I just learnt 2 first
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gRegor` Python 3 is so yesterday. Use Python 4
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gRegor` ;)
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bret KartikPrabhu im :( about it but im learning 2 as we speak (before 3)
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bret not a peep from sandeep this year at iwc :(
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KartikPrabhu bret: using py3 *might* have saved me some unicode headache
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bret didnt mean to right
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gRegor` Not much peeping on sandeep.io since May 3, either
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bret s/right/rhyme
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Loqi bret meant to say: didnt mean to rhyme
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gRegor` "No more rhymes now. I mean it!"
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bret lol
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bret also, kylewm, liking the posting of that video isnt ironic. since we created the liking tool we used, we understand (to some degree) its purpose and effect.
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bret the tools provided by facebook and twitter have a completely other primary purpose than to just provide virtual karma to each other
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kylewm bret: totally, and actually i was using that one as a bookmark
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kylewm which means i haven't seen it yet... :/
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gRegor` I found a bug with my mf2 markup when I sent the webmention - no p-name. I like that I could just update the markup and re-send it to fix on your site.
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gRegor` Something you can't do with 99% of blog comment systems out there.
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bret kylewm, gRegor` its so worth watching!
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kylewm also lol at webmention.io's mf2 parser
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kylewm https://github.com/aaronpk/webmention.io/blob/master/controllers/webmention.rb#L195
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bret such cheating
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kylewm I knew about it but I'd forgotten :)
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@sarahsmall RT @kevinmarks: If gawker bans staffers from internal chat so they can publish it, will they go to snapchat/secret or to #indieweb? http://… (twitter.com/_/status/484060378079707136)
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gRegor` Heh. Which parser is it using?
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kylewm php-mf2
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kylewm indirectly...
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gRegor` Is there a ruby parser yet?
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bret i belive so
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bret i think shaners was helping with it
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gRegor` kylewm: Looks like you got indiereader set up, on your laptop?
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kylewm i did!
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kylewm i even made a pull request :P
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gRegor` Woo!
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gRegor` I need to set up micropub on my site, then I'm sure I'll be hacking on indiereader some.
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gRegor` It's reading mf2 only as of the demo, right? Or XML feeds too?
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kylewm fairly certain it does both
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kylewm I think I overheard Ben say that they forgot to demo that part :)
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bret is it time for h-xoxo for the feed list?
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bret cc: tantek ^^
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: gregor`: how do i find this indiereader
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tantek bret - remind me the URL to the documentation of the use-case that you're trying to solve?
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: https://github.com/benwerd/indiereader
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KartikPrabhu nice thanks
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bret tantek the common use of opml was for feed reader import/export. the indiereader is just using a list of feeds on the persons site as a source for subscribed feeds i think not supporting any kind of sorting or folders.
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bret and as xoxo is the microformat version of opml, maybe that is needed again?
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tantek last time I checked no modern UX is doing reader import/export
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tantek so this sounds like an obsolete use-case
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tantek alternatively, consider that modern UX (i.e. what silos do) simply have 1) Follow / Add Friend buttons, 2) browsable friends/followings lists
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bret every existing and modern feed feed reader uses inport export, and they are all doing it with opml
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tantek bret and they are all dying
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KartikPrabhu sorting/filtering can just be done by having p-category on the feed-subscription no?
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tantek don't design for an evaporating lake, design for the ocean
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tantek rather
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tantek don't (re)design your boats for an evaporating lake, design your boats for the growing oceans
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bret tantek what do you think about the indiereader that was built the other day?
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bret or barnaby's reader
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tantek barnaby's reader is integrated into his site which he can use to read/write from, that makes sense
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rascul i will fish a lake until it evaporates, don't want to let them delicious fish die off unless i can eat them
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tantek rather than reinventing OPML (for dying use-cases), instead focus on how would you build an indieweb "Follow" button
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tantek and and indieweb "Add Friend" button
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tantek following that line of thinking will get you something silo-competitive in terms of UX
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tantek following the OPML / feeds lists / import/export path will not.
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bret ok, so when i log into a reader/new feed, how will my site present its data?
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bret or my friends
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bret or my follows
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tantek why are you logging into a reader/newfeed? don't you just login to your site?
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tantek aside, I'm editing /store right now
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bret because thats not my idea of how i want my site to be
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bret :)
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bret just like i have to log into different silos, i dont mind signing into different readers for different views
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bret or lanching, signing in is pretty much one time for a while
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bret the centrality to this concept is my site, where it rakes in and acts as my home base for these other views / experiences / reprisentations
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bret some of which i run, some of which friends / others run
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gRegor` GWG: How was your IWC experience?
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tantek bret - you like logging into different silos and having your stuff spread around? caseorganic has repeatedly explained how having all your stuff spread around is a huge negative and leads to sense of loss of control (and actual loss of control)
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GWG gRegor`: I wish I hadn't missed Sunday. It seemed like a lot happened I would have liked to be there for
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GWG gRegor`: Also I had trouble when I tried to come into the Design thing on Saturday
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tantek GWG - it's when things came together and people got stuff working on their own sites!
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bret tantek no, i dont like my stuff spread around, but I dont mind the different views and tools
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GWG gRegor`: Next time, will try coverage again
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GWG tantek: I saw the logs...as I said...would have loved to be present for it
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GWG Next time maybe
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GWG tantek: Merely a regret
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gRegor` GWG: there's pretty good notes on that session, with screenshots: http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/design-elements
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bret tantek i like the right tool for the right job, and I think this is echoed as to why people started using the slio apps that do certain things better, ie instagram
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kylewm GWG: sorry about the poor talky connection, my dinky laptop was not built for such things...
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bret but back to my original quention about xoxo, ill play around with how indiereader grabs data from my site and think on it
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gRegor` was confused by the xoxo talk at first
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gRegor` was thinking of the conference.
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KartikPrabhu bret: is there some advantage to xoxo vs just plain old mf2?
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aaronpk I also do not plan on building a reader into my own site, that's not how I want to use it
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KartikPrabhu plans to build it in to his own site... someday
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bret tantek i am apposed to having to build all my tools/interface into my own site
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aaronpk that's the whole reason I built indiereader with benwerd this weekend
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aaronpk and that's why IndieReader supports micropub
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benwerd aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 509 karma
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aaronpk the magic of IndieReader is that if the database blows up, no data is actually lost
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aaronpk since the "following" list is on your own site
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tantek.com edited /store (+419) "re-organize examples vs. specs, move W3C Manifest spec higher up on the page" (view diff)
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benwerd aaronpk: on that note, I've got a pull request open in the mention client lib to replace a preg_replace /e, which is now deprecated in PHP - any chance I can lean on you to take a peek at some point?
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aaronpk ooh yeah
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benwerd (not actually to do with indiereader, but speaking of indieweb tech ..)
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aaronpk probably not until later tonight
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benwerd ok
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benwerd thanks :)
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tantek bret: re: am I supposed to having to build all my tools/interface into my own site. No, that's what an IndieWeb App Store is for - so you can *install* IndieWeb apps (e.g. perhaps an IndieWeb Reader app) into your own site.
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bret since question of opml support came up over the weekend, my first association was to go "oh yeah, isnt there a uF1 version of that?"
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gRegor` benwerd: I'm interested in hacking on indiereader, too. Let me know if I can do anything.
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aaronpk installing an indieweb reader app is still a separate app even if it's on your own site/domain/subdomain
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tantek bret - ompl is for outlines - not for lists of friends and followings.
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aaronpk so it by nature would need an import/export. that's why I wanted to work around that by reading the subscriptions from a page on your *actual* site
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benwerd gRegor`: honestly still catching my breath, but please do take a look! I know aaronpk, emmak and I want to make it as useful as possible
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tantek aaronpk why would you run indiereader on a 3rd party domain rather than your own?
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gRegor` benwerd: Since I don't have micropub set up yet, I'd probably be interested in setting up a configuration for a URL that "Reply" can point to, so I can at least open the note form on my site to start a new note.
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bret opml's was only widely used for rss reader import/export as far as I could tell. but that is understandable given its origins ;)
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tantek sorry to say but import'/export is a UX dead-end
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tantek no one maintains their lists of feeds like that, pruning etc.
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aaronpk I agree that import/export is a dead end
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gRegor` benwerd: Will do!
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aaronpk that's why the list lives on your site
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tantek so stop thinking from OPML outward
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tantek and instead *start* with the Follow button
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bret yeah i dont ever want to include the words import export or that feature on my own site
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aaronpk here's a thought re: indie following
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tantek right - so when you talk about it from the import/export perspective it puts you on the wrong focus
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aaronpk right now, IndieReader expects to find a list of URLs for the sites you are subscribed to. Say that page is aaronparecki.com/following
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aaronpk that means what I need a "follow" button to do is to add an entry to that page
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aaronpk which turns out looks a lot like a micropub request to create a new h-entry
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: I was thinking about the same while reading this discussion
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tantek can you micropub create just a link with a rel value?
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aaronpk that's up to your micropub endpoint!
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aaronpk right now the smallest viable micropub request is h=entry&content=foo
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tantek aaronpk - just wondering if that's possible in the protocol
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tantek to create *just* a link - no h-entry
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aaronpk but why not h=entry&link=http://aaronparecki.com/
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kylewm s/link/url
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: h=subscription&url=foo ?
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bret i donk thing anyone has worked on a follow feature via micropub yet
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aaronpk why no h-entry? benwerd and I had a very brief discussion about this at the beginning of sunday
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tantek because you follow people not posts
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bret h-card?
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tantek you're following PEOPLE
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bret interesting
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tantek which are h-cards
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benwerd But the h-entry can be the activity announcing that you _are_ following someone?
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aaronpk for the purposes of the demo we said a subscription list would look like a list of h-entry posts that each contain a u-feed
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tantek not POSTS
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tantek which are h-entries
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kylewm julien's subtome is at least valuable prior art on this https://www.subtome.com/#/
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tantek back to user-centric please
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tantek people follow PEOPLE
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aaronpk that is totally up for debate, however, we just had to do something
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tantek "feeds" are plumbing
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GWG kylewm: We had intermittent issues
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aaronpk tantek: what markup would you use if you made a page listing all the *people* you follow?
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bret follow a person (from their site or other profile), rake in their h-card as a data source for where to follow
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tantek aaronpk: h=card&link=http://aaronparecki.com/ looks more sensible
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aaronpk that is the question we wanted to answer and didn't have time to actually think it through
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tantek since aaronprecki.com is a person
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tantek not an h-entry
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tantek aaronpk - re: what markup would you use if you made a page listing all the *people* you follow?
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tantek and that's the question partially answered by XFN
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bret a list of h-feedard :trollface:
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bret a list of h-cards
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tantek and completed with … http://microformats.org/wiki/xfn-brainstorming#follower_and_following
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bret like shaners address book thingy
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tantek using more literal terminology
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tantek a contacts list
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gRegor` And what if we're following a magazine site, instead of a person?
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tantek because they're *contacts* not addresses
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tantek and it's just a *list* not a book
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tantek gRegor`: h-card also includes organizations
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aaronpk so it sounds like we're ending up publishing a "following" list, which is a list of h-cards
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tantek that's closest to representing the *user* model of following a set of people
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KartikPrabhu can we call it something other than "following" :P
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tantek the closer your underyling data model matches the user model, the better
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bret please dont call it a friends list, I follow my enemies too
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tantek KartikPrabhu: if you have alternate suggestions, see all the work here: http://microformats.org/wiki/xfn-brainstorming#fans_and_followers
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bret i mean track >:D
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KartikPrabhu "follow" sounds creepy :P
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tantek KartikPrabhu: based on existing work. again, alternate suggestions welcome.
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aaronpk tantek: what is the collection of h-cards called?
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KartikPrabhu tantek: will look :)
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aaronpk assuming the collection has a name
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tantek we've tried to document every alternative people came up with, and adv/disadv accordingly
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tantek aaronpk, see above. contacts list.
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tantek I'd say contacts set but that's less user-friendly.
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bret Peeps
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bret h-peeps
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tantek you'll notice the app in iOS is called "Contacts"
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tantek not "Address Book"
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aaronpk is there a microformat for a contacts list? like the list itself, assuming the list has a name
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gRegor` doesn't think "follow" sounds creepy after 7 years of popular usage
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tantek that's a very deliberate design change
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KartikPrabhu bret: I like peeps :P
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tantek aaronpk - there is no microformat for lists - since a page with a bunch of instances is a list
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gRegor` h-peeps is reserved for marking up marshmallow chicks.
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aaronpk the page title is the title of the list then
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aaronpk what if I want multiple lists on the same page with different titles?
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tantek and a bunch of instances inside some other microformat is automatically added to the children array
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aaronpk could I publish an h-entry containing a bunch of h-cards?
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: using h-feed ?
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aaronpk maybe h-feed is the right thing
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tantek aaronpk - "what if I want …" (please insert use-case not format description)
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tantek e.g. "multiple lists on the same page with different titles" is a data description, not a use-case
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KartikPrabhu so I'd have a h-feed with "name = Friends" with a list of h-cards of friends and make another one for "name=enemies"
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aaronpk yeah that is what I was going to say
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tantek nope, h-feed was specifically for the use-cases it was designed for
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KartikPrabhu hmm
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tantek http://microformats.org/wiki/h-feed#Use_Cases
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KartikPrabhu tantek: would that not also be the case here. I could choose to "follow" only my friends on an indiereader?
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tantek and h-feed has the assumption that it's a collection of h-entry
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KartikPrabhu oh
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tantek it's not an arbitrary h-list h-collection etc.
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aaronpk use case is one list with name=tech people and a separate list with name=friends
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tantek because we don't do architecture astronomy here
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tantek aaronpk - that's a use-case for tagging, which we already have a solution to
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tantek h-card p-category
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tantek so you can tag each contact as you wish
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tantek friend, foe etc.
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tantek bestie, lunchbuddy whatever
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KartikPrabhu tantek: good point
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aaronpk I want to publicly publish a list of people I follow, but there are some people I follow that I do not want public
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aaronpk so they need to be in separate lists
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tantek aaronpk ^^^ write that down on a wiki page
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kylewm time for /contacts ?
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tantek kylewm++
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Loqi kylewm has 20 karma
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tantek start with the "Why" section where you describe the user-task-centered use-cases
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tantek not "I want a page with …" or "I want a structure with ..."
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Loqi gives tantek a page with
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tantek those are data-driven use-cases and then you end up with /architecture-astronomy
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bret aaronpk idea
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tantek I want not Loqi
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bret aaronpk what if the list expands based on the logged in state of the user?
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tantek these used to be called "blogrolls" btw
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bret or agent
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aaronpk bret: that could work but it complicates things some
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tantek how else do you get a union of public+private followings?
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KartikPrabhu tantek: saw this on the "follower/following" discussion http://microformats.org/wiki/xfn-brainstorming#rel-reader and this objection "and rel-values need to be nouns" but isn't following a verb too
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tantek aside: that /store page is really quite a mess - so many duplicated areas / concepts and the page seems to meander and not have a specific structure
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tantek I tried to cleanup the top part of /store but the whole rest of it seems like a mishmash of hopes, wants, desires, examples all interspersed with each other
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JonathanNeal I explained webmentions to my co-workers today. It wasn’t as easy as explaining it to my wife, because they cared more about the implementation.
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tantek I'm leary of "cleaning" it up as I don't want to lose whatever the contributors were intending
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tantek JonathanNeal: lol
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KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal: :)
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bret aaronpk the url would remain the same, but passing a token as a parameter or something results in the expanded feed with private info that the token is allowed to get at
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tantek JonathanNeal: for co-workers, use this: it's like pingback without the xml-rpc
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tantek done
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KartikPrabhu tantek: JonathanNeal and I had an extended discussion about needing example code on the wiki pages
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KartikPrabhu is that a good idea?
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tantek there is example code on the wiki pages
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KartikPrabhu as an example: the markup for a minimal comment
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tantek oh I think I remember seeing that
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tantek of course that request is ambiguous
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tantek see my follow-up when you guys were last discussing that
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JonathanNeal Ha! I don’t work at a tech company anymore so xml-rpc references wouldn’t make anything easier.
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tantek JonathanNeal: it does, as it makes them go look it up rather than ask about the implementation
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aaronpk bret: yeah I know what you mean
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tantek aaronpk - why not fully indieauth for viewing private information?
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tantek how are private followings any different than a private message?
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tantek private is private right?
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JonathanNeal I don’t think the implementation is hard, though, and it’s my ability to communicate it. It just means I don’t get the implementation as well. I am getting better.
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tantek JonathanNeal: it's ok I don't even have a webmention implementation myself :/
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aaronpk yeah presenting an access token when making a request to a following list makes sense
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pauloppenheim tantek: that's better than having a webmention receiver but not a publishing system :)
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KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal: in my experience implementing it helped me understand most of the details :)
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aaronpk ...yeah I don't know what this should look like at all...
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aaronpk let me know what you think, i'm open to suggestions http://aaronparecki.com/following and parsed: http://aaronparecki.com/following.json
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bret aaronpk what, selective feed content based on a token?
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aaronpk no, the following list
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bret oh
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aaronpk tantek: feel free to rip that to shreds :)
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bret aaronpk presumably you should keep track of all the other rel=me's you find on those urls?
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aaronpk for identity consolidation?
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bret yeah, you press follow and you then rake in all the data you can find on available data feeds
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aaronpk yeah that'd be cool
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aaronpk but that's like v3 or v4 feature :)
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bret err, you know what I mean.. "press follow" then parse out their h-card info on their domain or whatever
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JonathanNeal https://gist.github.com/jonathantneal/09d6ec3c12d01fcc6fdb my understanding of webmentions so far.
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bret the reader would then have their site's stuff, but lets say you follow tantek, and you also want to see his instagram stuff
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bret ;)
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Loqi [mention] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WebMention linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention (webmention)
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bret the reader could find that too
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aaronpk ha who sent a webmention for wikipedia?
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bret olololollo
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bret not me
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aaronpk JonathanNeal: technically the whole microformats part is outside the scope of webmention
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gRegor` I might be duplicating others' work and I'm sure it's far from complete, but I've been maintaining an "indieweb" list on Twitter for my own ease of filtering in the Twitter app: https://twitter.com/gregorlove/lists/indieweb
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JonathanNeal I’m still shakey on when to call them webmentions or mentions. aaronpk I had no idea. I thought the webmention requires mf parsing.
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gRegor` goes through the guest list to add more
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aaronpk all that is required is that there's a link on the source page to the target, it doesn't *have* to be an h-entry post
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aaronpk it's just that it's way more useful if it does
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aaronpk but what actually happens when a webmention is received is up to the receiver
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KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal: the webmention is just the notification protocol. it is up to the receiver how to parse it. Microformats seem to be the one is use here.
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KartikPrabhu one could imagine a webmention receiver parsing for RDFa <gasp>
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KartikPrabhu also JonathanNeal's view might have been coloured by my explanation last night :)
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kylewm aaronpk: haha i sent the webmention. i added a redirect from Webmention -> WebMention
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gRegor` I thought non-camel-cased was the preferred usage
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tantek aaronpk - sort of - about webmention - that's a minimal definition
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gRegor` (Though I've seen it both ways in different places)
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tantek however, just as pingback makes presentation suggestions, so does webmention
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tantek thus, as JonathanNeal is presume, webmention *does* imply some amount of microformats support for proper presentation of webmentions
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JonathanNeal So, what do I call it?
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tantek what is it?
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kylewm gRegor`: I think so too. I tried to type in wikipedia.org/webmention and it didn't find anything
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kylewm so i added the redirect
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tantek kylewm: on wikipedia?
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kylewm yes
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gRegor` Oh, I misunderstood you
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gregorlove.com edited /webmention (+0) "Capitalization: Webmention" (view diff)
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tantek so back to the contacts thing
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tantek simplest solution is just a page of links with rel values
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tantek no h-* needed at all
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tantek just rel=following for people/sites you're following. this is a re-use of Twitter's terminology
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GWG July 5th they are staging a production of 1776...wonder if I should go.
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aaronpk can i put rel=following on an h-card?
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tantek GWG - do they have an indiewebsite?
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tantek or was that #indiechat? ;)
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GWG tantek: Don't know. Which is why Im going to #indiechat
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aaronpk hm no that doesn't make sense
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tantek lol
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GWG tantek: I'll write about it on my indiesite?
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KartikPrabhu tantek: this could be combined with the h-card business. For instance I could have an h-card with multiple urls, hompage, twitter etc... and choose to rel=following only some of them
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tantek aaronpk yes: <a rel=following href=https://aaronparecki.com class=h-card>Aaron Parecki</a>
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tantek which is one step up from simple links
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tantek it's step two, simple links with linktext
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tantek and as soon as you have *two* pieces of information to associate like that then it makes sense to wrap them in an h-*, in this case, an h-card
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tantek KartikPrabhu: exactly
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aaronpk i'm not really liking the way this parsed version ends up http://aaronparecki.com/following.json
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tantek aaronpk - yup - this is why we got away from mixing rel and h-*
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tantek you use one OR the other
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tantek either you use the simple rel-only approach
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tantek OR you put things in a bunch of h-*
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tantek e.g. we have rel=author for JUST a link
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tantek and we have h-entry p-author h-card for more structure
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aaronpk so i would use u-following on the link then and stop using the rel value?
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KartikPrabhu u-following makes sense
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tantek aaronpk - OR make a new singular replacement for h-card
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tantek is it about the link/site or about the person?
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tantek is the focus the subscription? or the person?
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tantek conceptually - to the user
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aaronpk here's a use case that makes it more about the subscription:
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tantek per the question about following someone's instagram
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tantek that's why I was asking - I thought you might have such a use case :)
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aaronpk I want to get push notifications when certain people post, but no notifications for the rest
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aaronpk (I do this with twitter right now)
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tantek on a people level? or a subscription level?
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tantek (for everything they post? or for only certain kinds of things or sources of their posts?)
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aaronpk actually specific kinds of posts, since I also do it on foursquare
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tantek aaronpk - the easy option is the put a p-category of "notifications" on those you want to receive notifications from
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tantek aaronpk - perhaps document these notifications use-cases on /notification
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tantek (I think all the notification use-cases you gave are good ones)
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tantek what if I told you you might want to follow *any* kind of object?
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aaronpk object being...?
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tantek person, company, post (i.e. the comments on a post), event (invitations, rsvps, comments on the event)
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aaronpk oh yeah totally, that came up in the reader discussion!
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aaronpk I often follow a hashtag temporarily
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tantek this is not a hypothetical, this is *exactly* what FB has already implemented, seamlessly
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aaronpk yep
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tantek with the user needing to do any feed management
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aaronpk well the user does some feed "management", at least in terms of "muting" or "unsubscribing" a thread
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tantek managing your followings is too hard / socially awkward for users - so the (smarter) silos have figured out how to *infer* a dynamic set of followings in realtime
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tantek aaronk - they are tweaking knobs, rather than doing any heavy lifting
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aaronpk yeah
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tantek huge difference in "management"
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tantek this is another way the silos have innovated beyond the reader/feed model of yore
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tantek and another example of why when designing these systems for the indieweb - we should look at silo UX *instead of* any legacy reader/feed examples/thinking etc.
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aaronpk super good example
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tantek when I say the reader/feed model is dead, this is what I'm talking about
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tantek so a) stop using it as a starting point, and b) pushback against *anyone* in the indieweb community who starts with an assumption of reader or feed.
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tantek with that example for example
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aaronpk so this is actually a great reason for the "following" or "subscription" list to live on your own site
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aaronpk assumign that this subscription list is changing rapidly because of intelligent systems doing adds/deletes on the fly like the silos,
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aaronpk these subscriptions may be changing from based on many sources, not just the reader interface
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tantek correct
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tantek or even mutes/unmutes
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tantek rather than explicit deletes
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tantek or maybe thresholds - only show me items from this person that someone else has commented on
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tantek only show me items from NYTimes that 3+ friends have commented on
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tantek (or other activity including liking, reposting)
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tantek I think the term "subscription" really stagnated blog/reader/feed UX btw
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tantek both Twitter and FB completely ditched "subscription"
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aaronpk some thoughts from 2010 about this... http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2010/09/21/1/bayesian-twitter-client
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tantek Twitter replace subscriptions with followings
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tantek s/replace/replaced
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Loqi tantek meant to say: Twitter replaced subscriptions with followings
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tantek Facebook replace subscriptions with - a union of *multiple* things: followings, friends, pages you've liked, events you've been invited to, groups you're a member of, posts you've commented on, posts you're mentioned in
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tantek wonders if benwerd is quietly lurking in the background and reading with careful critical analysis.
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KartikPrabhu youtube still uses "subscribe"
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tantek KartikPrabhu: and how well is that working out?
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KartikPrabhu unknown to me :)
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tantek youtube is good for embedding videos and not much more
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tantek the rest of their UI pretty much sucks
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KartikPrabhu true
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tantek people, comments, likes etc. huge mess.
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KartikPrabhu has permanently blocked youtube comments with an ad-blocker :P
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tantek they're popular for free video hosting/embedding - that's about it.
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tantek not sure there's much else good to learn from Youtube UX
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benwerd actually had a team conversation about this this morning. A key consideration for us is making sure that Known sites don't feel "empty" when you first set one up - finding a way to connect to the wider constellation of sites out there helps you feel like you're part of a wider community
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tantek benwerd - that's the cold start problem
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benwerd inferring connections to conversations you might be interested in
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benwerd right - and something that's directly connected to reading, as you've all identified above
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tantek and again, something you can trivially research by creating a new Twitter account and seeing what they do
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aaronpk oh man the twitter onboarding has been getting so annoying
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tantek so again, the silos have solved the cold start problem. just go research what they do and document it on the wiki - if that's a problem that concerns you
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benwerd we called out the twitter UX for this as not being great
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benwerd basically encourages you to follow celebrities
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KartikPrabhu tantek: but on the indieweb how to you suggest things in a decentralized manner?
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tantek aaronpk - annoying to us
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tantek but apparently useful to "typical" "new" users
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benwerd mm, we're still thinking about it, but will document etc once we've distilled
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tantek benwerd - not distilled nor thinking but research
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tantek why not document - what does twitter do? what does fb do? etc.
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aaronpk and tumblr while we're at it
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tantek that requires little to no thinking, and no distilling
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KartikPrabhu time for a /cold-start
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benwerd tantek - yep, semantics but that's what we're doing
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tantek yes tumblr too
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benwerd also medium, hi, etc etc
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tantek right
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aaronpk the "upload your contact list" "feature" that mobile apps do is another way to address this
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tantek I'm pretty convinced that you won't design something good unless you do and document that research first
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tantek aaronpk - sort of? they more "sync your contact list"
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aaronpk they usually prompt with "give us access to your contact list so you can connect with your friends using this app
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tantek benwerd - agreed about twitter not being great for encouraging you to follow celebs - however, that observation deserves to be in a "Criticism" subsection of a "Twitter" section on /cold-start !
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tantek if you guys discussed this over the weekend, which session was it captured in?
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aaronpk i think it's actually a syncing process, but it's often presented as an upload
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tantek (wiki URL)
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tantek aaronpk agreed
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aaronpk http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/indie-reader (needs import from https://etherpad.mozilla.org/indie-reader )
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gregorlove.com created /2014/indie-reader (+1257) "import notes" (view diff)
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aaronpk thx gRegor` can you also drop the wiki link at the top of the etherpad page to note that it's been imported?
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tantek anyway - I'm pretty far from integrating reading into my site unfortunately - I'm just hoping to avoid having folks who *are* working on reading go off the dead-end of aggregators / feed-managment / import/export / subscriptions etc.
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gRegor` Hm?
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gRegor` Oh, gotcha
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aaronpk tantek: agreed
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gregorlove.com edited /2014/indie-reader (+3) "/* Session Notes */" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /2014/indie-reader (+30) "/* Session Notes */ basic subheadings" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk - for that reason, I'll leave it up to the folks actively scratching their reader itch to document the above issues/concerns and alternate perspectives (silo ux as inspiration, follow button etc., following all kinds of things beyond people, minimizing "subscription" management ) etc.
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tantek document on the wiki that is
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gregorlove.com edited /2014/indie-reader (+22) "/* Current readers */ link people" (view diff)
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tantek (also helps by filtering it through someone else's notion of what is useful and not)
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tantek useful *feedback
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gregorlove.com edited /2014/indie-reader (+51) (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /2014/indie-reader (+59) "/* Session Notes */ link to github" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /2014/indie-reader (-2) "/* Session Notes */" (view diff)
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GWG tantek: Got a moment?
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gRegor` hands GWG a moment
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aaronpk GWG: it's usually better to just ask your question
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GWG tantek: You could be busy.
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KartikPrabhu gregor`: are you trying to play Loqi?
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GWG tantek: custom URL handlers, such as the tel:// etc are not registered on all systems. Would something to register them to do something be worth doing to enhance people focused communication?
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gRegor` Who, me?
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KartikPrabhu well played!
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gRegor` yay!
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Loqi yay!
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kylewm hahaha
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KartikPrabhu ha!
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gRegor` Like a browser extension, GWG?
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snarfed GWG: on android, we could do that pretty easily as part of https://github.com/snarfed/open-in-app . wouldn't even need new code, just new config snippets
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GWG snarfed: What about desktop?
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snarfed GWG: yup, that'd be something else
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GWG The only thing I've ever seen register a URL handler recently is Gmail.
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GWG So, there is need for a tool, possibly
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gRegor` Skype registers(ed?) its own handle
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peat Whoops. I left my IRC window open and missed the earlier CSS notes, aaronpk. I'm going to jump into the rename updates and merge changes from the teahouse this evening. :)
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gRegor` I think an extension would be good. Maybe like webactions - allow different preferences. E.g. if I click a phone number in the browser, maybe I'd rather add it to a contact record
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aaronpk cool!
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snarfed GWG: google finds desktop apps for mac and windows pretty easily. e.g. http://onflapp.wordpress.com/lincastor/ ,
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snarfed http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ie/aa767914%28v=vs.85%29.aspx
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aaronpk peat: I also gave you a hacky way to do your own custom stylesheet. make a file called peat.org/indiewebcamp.css :)
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gRegor` Ooh
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gRegor` User stylesheets on the wiki has been something I wanted. I was really excited for the fix the wiki project.
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aaronpk i still don't know why mediawiki's user stylesheets aren't working, and the people in #mediawiki didn't have any other suggestions, so I did this instead
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gRegor` Does it work for everyone?
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peat aaronpk: Snazzy! I'm all for it.
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GWG snarfed: Linux user
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snarfed GWG: great! i expect there are similar linux programs. try searching?
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peat ... the rework done this weekend should actually make it easier to do custom stylesheets. Instead of a billionty CSS hacks, it's more-or-less plain vanilla Foundation (http://foundation.zurb.com/).
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tantek GWG - re: registering common handlers - depends on the system I suppose
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tantek since the focus is *mobile* - I'd start there.
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tantek e.g. you have an android right?
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gRegor` Nice, peat
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JonathanNeal I was a little confused earlier. Are they WebMentions or Webmentions?
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aaronpk prefers not camel case
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KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal: I use normal case too
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gRegor` The IWC wiki page /webmention consistently uses normal casing now.
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gRegor` webmention.org should probably be updated to match (and perhaps capture other newer changes?)
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aaronpk it is entirely normal case too
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gRegor` Nevermind, looks like it already does
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gRegor` Cool
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gRegor` So only wikipedia has CamelCase
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aaronpk heh yeah
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kylewm anybody who's made > 10 edits can move the wikipedia page
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kylewm i've only made 5 apparently
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gRegor` Anyone have expansion on http://indiewebcamp.com/style-guide#The_Web_vs_the_web, since it's blank? Or just remove it?
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benwerd ("Indieweb" or "Indie Web"?)
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gRegor` I can do it, kylewm
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JonathanNeal What does it mean when the Webmention 0.2 spec says “the webmention endpoint is advertised in the HTTP Link header“?
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JonathanNeal This is listed as an alternative to a <link> or <a> element with rel=“webmention".
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KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal: when you link to some page and want to send a webmention you have to find the webmention endpoint. One way to do this is to look for rel=webmention in <link> or <a> but another would be to look for it in the Headers that the page gives you
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aaronparecki.com created /wiki/redesign (+824) "notes on wiki redesign" (view diff)
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aaronpk http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/redesign
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gRegor` JonathanNeal: e.g. if you inspect the response headers on gregorlove.com, you'll see Link: <http://gregorlove.com/webmention/>
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gRegor` rel="webmention"
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kylewm bear pointed out this weekend that Link: in a header is not as reliable as <link> in the document -- that it may be removed by a proxy for example
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gRegor` Moved: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Webmention
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kylewm sweet, thanks gRegor`
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gRegor` kylewm: Interesting. I choose to do both the header and <link> element.
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kylewm we should add /IndieWebCamp
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Loqi fo sho
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gRegor` I wondered if it had been added before and removed for notability or something
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gRegor` I noticed it red-linked from Tantek
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kylewm gRegor`: I think doing both was the recommendation
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kylewm the header might save you a fetch, and then you can fall back on the html
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gRegor` Nope, doesn't appear to be any history.
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gRegor` Have at it! :)
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tantek what did I redlink?
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aaronpk from tantek's wikipedia page
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gRegor` You didn't
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gRegor` The IndieWebCamp link from your wikipedia is a redlink, tantek.
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tantek I blame tommorris
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GWG snarfed: Can't the browser register handers for itself?
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GWG Then it is platform neutral
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snarfed GWG: but the actual handler programs are platform-specific
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snarfed GWG: and in practice the mapping often leaks into the OS a bit too, as opposed to being just in the browser
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GWG snarfed: But this is the Indieweb room...I'm assuming the handler is a website
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snarfed GWG: not really. it will usually be a native app
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snarfed in practice, on most platforms, the best way to e.g. make a phone call or send an SMS is an app, not a web site
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tantek with those conditionals yes. i think we're still trying to make it even *possible* to make a phone call from a website to a website.
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tantek talky is more like a conference call you go join
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gRegor` There's now two redlinks to IndieWebCamp, kylewm. I added a citation template on wikipedia's IWC link. :)
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KartikPrabhu tantek: I noticed your SMS thingie sends msg to tantek@tantek.com how do you handle those and forward to your non-phone?
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tantek I don't worry about it - their client handles it.
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KartikPrabhu tantek: whose client?
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tantek either they are on iOS or have the iMessages app in which case it works like an SMS using Apple's servers
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tantek or if they're e.g. on Android it redirects it to the Hangouts app which sends an email via their phone provider email address
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tantek either way it works
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KartikPrabhu oh i see
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tantek no handling needed by me :)
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KartikPrabhu I wonder what my phone provider email is...
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tantek KartikPrabhu: click on the txt message link to me and I'll tell you :)
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KartikPrabhu I already sent you a msg :P
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KartikPrabhu so the idea is that the phone company converts the SMS/MMS to an email and send it to your address?
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GWG snarfed: But shouldn't both options be possible? For me to register twitter:// to twitter.com or to the Twitter app?
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GWG Or so on
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tantek KartikPrabhu: no your non-iOS device does the conversion
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tantek your client device knows your phone provider email address
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snarfed GWG: sure…but we're getting pretty down into the weeds. maybe go back to a single concrete use case, build that, then expand
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KartikPrabhu huh! never knew that at all
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tantek KartikPrabhu: what was your area code?
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KartikPrabhu 773
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KartikPrabhu chicago area
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gRegor` KartikPrabhu: For iMessage specifically, Apple maps your specified email address(es) and phone number so other iOS devices can send a text to any of them.
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KartikPrabhu i see
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gRegor` I only have an iPad, but for experimenting with iMessage I set up an iMessage account using chat@ my domain
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gRegor` So you can do it without a phone number even. Pretty cool.
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gRegor` Though, obvoiusly, Apple is being the silo there. :)
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KartikPrabhu yes.
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aaronpk imessage is basically just jabber
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KartikPrabhu tantek also does it without phone number
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aaronpk i think it actually is underneath, but that might no longer be true
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gRegor` Also some privacy concerns with them being able to decrypt messages, allegedly. It's been a while since I read up on that.
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aaronpk think of it more like you can sign in to your imessage account on multiple devices rather than how you think of SMS
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gRegor` KartikPrabhu: I'm guessing tantek's number is associated with his iMessage since he's on iOS.
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gRegor` I just meant I have no number associated because I'm not on iphone
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gRegor` too many i-things
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GWG snarfed: I'm thinking about my Chromebook, which I take on trips, mostly.
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KartikPrabhu tantek was using his iPod
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gRegor` Oh!
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tantek Kartik your +1 number @tmomail.net
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KartikPrabhu tantek: o i see how this works! thanks...
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GWG How does anyone know what people's preferred communications methods are if they are situational
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KartikPrabhu mobile companies don't tell you this email thingie
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tantek GWG - it's up to you to have your website auto update based on your situation
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tantek people can't know your contextual preferences
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tantek all they can do is know to go to your /contacts.html page and tap the first button they see that they like
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bear aaronpk it still does deep in the bowels of iMessage
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gRegor` It's probably buried on the Tmo site somewhere, heh
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bear for multiple device routing
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Loqi bear: KartikPrabhu left you a message on 7/1 at 12:15am: more "accessible" marginalia icons updated: https://kartikprabhu.com/article/marginalia##that+part+of+the+post might need hard referesh of the CSS. should be a 'hollow' icon when deactivated and on showing marginalia should turn solid and green. but solid is enough :)
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tantek gRegor`, KartikPrabhu I prefer Apple and FB as silos to the phone companies
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gRegor` True
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tantek it's very much a matter of continuously choosing less harmful options for short term practical reasons
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gRegor` Just a mention, not a critique for using it.
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gRegor` iMessage obviously works great for a lot of people
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tantek gRegor`: it is a valid critique
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gRegor` KartikPrabhu: Just tried emailing your tmomail.net address
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gRegor` To see if it shows as a text, or what
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KartikPrabhu gregor`: interesting will watch ou
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KartikPrabhu well so far nothing happened :P
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gRegor` tantek: you said the email was "+1###...@tmomail.net", no separators on the numbers?
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gRegor` There's probably some secret inbox to check. Or they just /dev/null it. :)
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gRegor` Back in a bit.
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tantek gRegor`: right
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GWG tantek: That seems like a wiki page discussion, doesn't it?
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KartikPrabhu can't find his phone-email address anywhere on tmobile's site!
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gRegor` So weird.
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gRegor` Document your work, T-mo!
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GWG tantek: Where would that go? Contextual communications?
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tantek KartikPrabhu: replied to your message :)
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KartikPrabhu yeah got it as MMS!
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tantek :D
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tantek I should say, I replied *from my ipod*
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KartikPrabhu wonder why gregor` s msg never arrived
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KartikPrabhu oh hey! gregor` received just now as SMS
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bear http://support.t-mobile.com/docs/DOC-3309 <-- t-mobile support doc on the email interface
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tantek bear - probably worth adding that to /tmobile
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bear oh sure, make me be productive after a disappointing futbol match :/
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tantek come on, you can use a bit of dopamine for the satisfaction of that edit ;)
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bear :)
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tantek oh wait that joke was in #microformats ;)
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KartikPrabhu bear: judas priest how did you dig that up!
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KartikPrabhu tantek: stop mixing your channels!
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JonathanNeal The Link header spec uses a lot of dissimilar markup, ie it looks ugly to me http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5988
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bear KartikPrabhu - i've been a t-mobile user for a long time and before pagerduty and the like that was the best way to do low-cost alerts
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aaronpk I used to post status updates to my website by sending an SMS from my candybar phone to my web server in 2003
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bear yep
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tantek aaronpk awesome - you should add that to p3k :)
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aaronpk via verizon's sms email gateway
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KartikPrabhu ooo that will be good to know! aaronpk
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KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal: Link Headers seem mesys yes
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aaronpk tantek: what I should actually do is create an SMS-to-micropub service so anyone can use it :)
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bear is there a tmobile page?
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk++ nice idea!
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Loqi aaronpk has 510 karma
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tantek bear - just assume there is, and if there isn't, click Create and start with {{stub}} :)
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aaronpk anybody else interested in posting to their site via SMS? or is that too last decade?