#indiewebcamp 2014-07-01

2014-07-01 UTC
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@kid_OYO
@benwerd excited to see all this "partnering" of efforts...synergy with #DoOO and #indieweb our #iiw seed plantings have roots! ht @NZN
(twitter.com/_/status/483764765571825667)
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aaronpk
tantek: yeah she got a great shot!
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KartikPrabhu
wait did someone use "synergy" and "indieweb" in the same tweet! :P
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bret
be nice ;)
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kartikprabhu.com
edited /events/2014-07-02-homebrew-website-club (+43) "/* RSVP */ added me to Chicago"
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@billywwells
New Billy Wells Horror Book Trailer! https://www.youtube.com/ #horror #kindle #zombies #ebooks #scarystoriestime #amazon #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/483772350626672640)
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kylewm
!tell tantek could you clarify something from this morning -- do I need permission from everyone that I screenshotted on http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/Design_Elements
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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GWG
Hello, kylewm
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kylewm
hey GWG, I'm just about to head out the door but i'll be back on shortly
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Loqi
benwerd: aaronpk left you a message 6 hours, 16 minutes ago: can you tell me what sort of string encoding settings you have in your php and mysql that didn't crash on my emoji post?
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Loqi
benwerd: tantek left you a message 1 hour, 2 minutes ago: really hoping you can make it Wednesday night to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-07-02-homebrew-website-club and perhaps even make an IndieEvent and POSSE to FB Event as well? Thank you in advance!
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benwerd
aaronpk: just checked, it's just utf8_general_ci and InnoDB
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KartikPrabhu
aaronpk: fwiw: that is also the one I use in my MySQL DB
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benwerd
aaronpk: I'm on PHP Version 5.5.6 fwiw
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benwerd
maybe a fix there for some reason?
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@withknown
David Wiley (@opencontent) wrote a lovely post on Known, the #indieweb, and education technology: http://opencontent.org/blog/archives/3393
(twitter.com/_/status/483778811213787136)
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@erinjo
RT @withknown: David Wiley (@opencontent) wrote a lovely post on Known, the #indieweb, and education technology: http://opencontent.org/blog/archives/3393
(twitter.com/_/status/483779069570330624)
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@ak2webd3
RT @withknown: David Wiley (@opencontent) wrote a lovely post on Known, the #indieweb, and education technology: http://opencontent.org/blog/archives/3393
(twitter.com/_/status/483779138629959680)
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KartikPrabhu
anyone have recommedations for good license for the marginalia.js ?
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bret
ngoldman, what was the name of that sublime text theme that you were using?
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aaronpk
KartikPrabhu: BSD, MIT or Apache would be my preference
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KartikPrabhu
hmm thanks will look into those
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KartikPrabhu
aaronpk: that page might be more helpful with some advice about which licenses are good for which type of projects
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bret
ngoldman++ purrrrdy
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Loqi
ngoldman has 396 karma
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ngoldman
woot my loqi karma carries over in all the places
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bret
damn, you a karma gangster
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aaronparecki.com
edited /licensing (+0) "/* External Links */ typo"
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kylewm.com
edited /licensing (+27) "/* Permissive */ added myself to BSD"
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kylewm
peat: any reason for choosing Foundation rather than Bootstrap for the wiki redesign? some discussion this weekend got me interested in trying to learn one or both
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rascul
foundation is good
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aaronpk
are you implying bootstrap is not good?
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bret
bootstrap is less, foundation is sass…. thats like the dividing line right?
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aaronpk
i'm sure they are way more different than that
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KartikPrabhu
hmmm frameworks
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kylewm
so if bootstrap is less and less is more and more's the merrier...
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rascul
aaronpk no not intentionally
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rascul
they're both good
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bret
im tangled in bootstrap, doesn't feel good
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GWG
I just joined the bootstrapping
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rascul
i mean, as far as big and heavy css frameworks go they're good
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rascul
big thing awhile back was that bootstrap is for less and foundation is for sass but iirc bootstrap is sassed up now too
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aaronpk
i've been using bootstrap since they launched, the most annoying part is they keep changing everything every major version so you hve to re-learn the whole thing
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bret
^^^^
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rascul
bootstrap is obviously the more popular one, sometimes popularity is a turn off for people
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kylewm
it was a little bit eye opening seeing how polished the demos that used it looked
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GWG
I just am trying to lower the bar. I'm not a designer per se
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bret
i ate my pizza before it was cool man
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rascul
i've used both and been happy with both when i wanted a big and heavy css framework
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aaronpk
yeah i like using frameworks like that because i don't have to fiddle with css all day long and i still get something that looks ok
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aaronpk
does foundation have "widgets" like bootstrap does?
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aaronpk
i like that about bootstrap
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kylewm
!tell peat, skinny I love the wiki redesign by the way. i was a little bit floored when it was unveiled :)
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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kylewm
(skinny == Crystal right?)
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aaronpk
tho I don't actually remember what irc nick she uses
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GWG
I built a feature with bootstrap, and then rebuilt it without it. Bootstrap was easier
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kylewm.com
edited /selfdogfood (+206) "/* Discussion */ added suggestions i heard at iwc"
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rascul
lately i just write the css myself
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rascul
the amount of time i spend tweaking bootstrap and hacking up my html to make bootstrap do what i want is about the amount of time writing the css myself
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aaronpk
huh, i have not found that to be true for myself
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GWG
rascul: Would not say I would disagree 100%
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rascul
and the end result makes cleaner html because i'm not stuck with how they want it structured and i don't have a crap ton of classes all over the place
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rascul
but to each his/her own :)
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kylewm
absolutely
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GWG
rascul: Well, I was inspired by reading pfefferle's code. He did something that I plan to do in that regard.
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GWG
I looked at simpler frameworks and philosophies. I thought I'd go mainstream
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kylewm
I suspect it takes as much skill/time to make bootstrap look not totally bootstrappy as it would to write up stuff from scratch
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Loqi
tantek: kylewm left you a message 1 hour, 2 minutes ago: could you clarify something from this morning -- do I need permission from everyone that I screenshotted on http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/Design_Elements
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GWG
kylewm: Does my site and test site look bootstrappy?
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rascul
i've also been writing css since before bootstrap i know it pretty well
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kylewm
maybe skill/knowledge rather than skill/time
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tantek
kylewm - well, you need permission to upload stuff you didn't create yourself and can't put into the public domain
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kylewm
blargh
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kylewm
I can't just say hand wave "fair use"?
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rascul
using sass though because nesting and variables make all the difference
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aaronparecki.com
created /User:Aaronparecki.com/common.css (+37) "testing user stylesheet"
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kylewm
GWG: no I don't think your site looks bootstrappy, nor emmak's
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tantek
kylewm - good question
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GWG
rascul: So have I. I just want to not focus as much on certain things right now
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tantek
safer to simply ask people you know for permission, or ask them to upload!
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GWG
kylewm: The description of my styling is 'minimal'
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GWG
Of course, I wrote the description.
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kylewm
thanks tantek, I will definitely at least ask bnvk and psyhigh/Darin
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tantek
kylewm - asking also shows respect
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rascul
GWG rascul.io first had bootstrap when i was designing it
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tantek
consent and all that good stuff
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rascul
because i wanted to easily play with different ideas
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rascul
then when i got farther along i wrote the css for it the way i wanted it
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GWG
rascul: I'm trying to create a Wordpress theme that is universal enough, it can have child themes forked off of it that look very different, but it can work on its own as a minimal site.
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rascul
sounds like a good idea
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GWG
rascul: Mostly because I have a tendency to move things around a lot. I need to build for that
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GWG
rascul: So, every time I hack away at it, I turn another piece into an independent portion
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GWG
So, last week, after looking at Sempress, which is the only fully mf2 theme I know of, I ripped my theme into four more pieces, inspired by what the author did. Of course, he only had 2 pieces...
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rascul
also i didn't want to pull in a bunch of big external stuff for rascul.io i wanted to keep everything small
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rascul
iirc my js is about 10 lines and no jquery (but i messed up the html for it, i need to fix that)
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GWG
rascul: I have a project I need JS for, but I never learned much of it. I guess I'll have to.
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rascul
i don't really know js that good, it's just that most languages i can easily get the grasp of and js is mostly easy for me in that regard
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kartikprabhu.com
edited /annotation (+477) "added indieweb usage and code"
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KartikPrabhu
take that "annotations" indieweb example FTW!
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: might as well put the date on there too
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tantek
like other IndieWeb Examples sections
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KartikPrabhu
oh h,mm yeah since...
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tantek.com
edited /annotation (+4) "/* Indieweb Examples */ subheads"
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tantek.com
edited /annotation (+7) "subheading levels"
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kartikprabhu.com
edited /annotation (+17) "/* Indieweb Examples */ add date"
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: FYI also fixed the marginalia code to "move" the comments so they do not repeat at the bototm
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tantek
brilliant!
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tantek
that way general article comments are easier to find in the footer
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tantek
rather than being overwhelmed with marginalia
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: yes. JonathanNeal expressed similar feelings and I agree :) also the code is easier ;)
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tantek
cool!
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tantek
next look into using :target to style showing/hiding marginalia
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tantek
with the show/hide "buttons" being links to fragement identifiers of the individual marginalia divs to show/hide
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tantek
battery low - bbiab
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kylewm
we should have done a proxy demo of marginalia in PDX! I know Bret and I showed it to lots of ppl 1 on 1 at least
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: thanks! :) I'd like to see other UI/UX implementations. the JS allows you to have your own UI style!
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aaronpk
peat: I can't figure out how the user style stuff works so i'm hacking around it
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KartikPrabhu
!tell benwerd, enrinjo if possible I'd like to take a shot at making a Known theme :) how do I do that?
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk
peat: ok if you make a stylesheet called peat.org/indiewebcamp.css you'll see those styles applied to the wiki when signed in
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KartikPrabhu
aaronpk: this is custom styles to the wiki from your own domain?
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aaronpk
yeah lol
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aaronpk
user-specific
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KartikPrabhu
aaronpk: dope! does this not have some cross-site security implications?
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aaronpk
well you're the only one who will see it
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aaronpk
hm now I want to do that to my site too... so you can apply your own stylesheet to my site!
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aaronpk
i could always include a style tag referencing yoursite.com/user-styles/aaronparecki.com.css
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aaronpk
then other people could do it too and you'd end up with a folder of peoples styles that you override
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aaronpk
that would be hilarious
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KartikPrabhu
aaronpk: lol!
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Loqi
benwerd: KartikPrabhu left you a message 39 minutes ago: if possible I'd like to take a shot at making a Known theme :) how do I do that?
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benwerd
KartikPrabhu: Awesome! It's pretty easy. I'll write up some better documentation tonight and give you a ping when it's up.
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KartikPrabhu
benwerd: nice! thanks :) just something to distract me from python and javascript :)
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KartikPrabhu
great work with known btw!
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benwerd
KartikPrabhu: Thank you! And delighted to be a distraction :) I'm about to eat some food but I've opened my text editor and will write something down straight afterwards.
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KartikPrabhu
no hurry! thanks :)
j12t, benwerd, snarfed, etymancer, wolftune, shepazu, lukebrooker, markmhendrickson, brianloveswords, nagaway, KartikPrabhu, saurik_, tallpaul_, mattl, BjornW, dybskiy, dreeves, mdik, halorgium, jonnybarnes, peat, benward, donpdonp, teknotus, kylewm, voxpelli, jden, catsup, pdurbin, realz, JasonO, XgF, irdan, dysfun_, sdboyer, onewheelskyward, JonathanNeal, CaptainCalliope, kronda, ozatomic, edrex, bret, rknLA, iboxifoo, amblin, b0bg0d_____, Phae, jacus_, galfert, ellton, lmjabreu_, ngoldman, bigbluehat, hadleybeeman, dietrich_, ericholscher, PMurphs_, michel_v, ryana, ben_thatmustbeme, nemo-yiannis, mcepl, Garbee, finchd, piney0, hidgw, terminalpixel, wagle, icco, walkah, aaronpk, Hodgestar, GWG, tommorris, Jeena, smcgregor, memecake, binbasti, reidab, the_merlin, jancborchardt, mlinksva, otterdam, bear, jtzl_, hugoroyd, rhiaro and muhh joined the channel
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Loqi
peat: kylewm left you a message 2 hours, 41 minutes ago: I love the wiki redesign by the way. i was a little bit floored when it was unveiled :)
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Loqi
binbasti: tantek left you a message 5 hours, 28 minutes ago: I'd like to see the /store effort follow webapps wg manifest as well.
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Loqi
benward: tantek left you a message 12 hours, 26 minutes ago: hope you can make it this Wednesday evening @MozSF! http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-07-02-homebrew-website-club
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Loqi
binbasti: tantek left you a message 5 hours, 20 minutes ago: does your personal site have a manifest that allows it to be installed as a webapp?
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Loqi
binbasti: bnvk left you a message 5 hours, 19 minutes ago: my efforts with the /store are NOT relating to client side app stores, webapp !== client side (html5 + js) only apps, I'm not focusing on server side apps that are installed on hardware that is available to the web- think an open source cPannel for self hosting. Look at the platforms and "Platforms" documented on the page
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Loqi
binbasti: bnvk left you a message 4 hours, 56 minutes ago: hopefully we can link up in real time and chat stores and stuff- I'm a big fan of what you did with 5 Apps
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JonathanNeal
KartikPrabhu: have a chance to review this marginalia markup? https://gist.github.com/jonathantneal/cf8ea5ff0cafd72e3688
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KartikPrabhu
JonathanNeal: looking now
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KartikPrabhu
JonathanNeal: why not use a list with <li> for each <article> ? At least that is what I'm using
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KartikPrabhu
but the mf2 looks sound
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KartikPrabhu
oh except you might want to have <article class="p-comment h-entry"> so that it is regarded as a comment of the original h-entry post
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KartikPrabhu
JonathanNeal: also to combine it with the marginalia.js you might want to take a look at this: https://github.com/kartikprabhu/marginalia/blob/master/README.md
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JonathanNeal
KartikPrabhu: Not everything ordered is a list. An story is a series of paragraphs in a certain order, but it is not a list. To be a list, it requires intent to explicitely communicate the order of the items and their connection with each other.
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JonathanNeal
In this instance, the comments are ordered, absolutely, but they are not intended to be a list.
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KartikPrabhu
I see. makes sense.
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KartikPrabhu
JonathanNeal: I might need to make the marginalia.js more adaptable to other markups then
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@donniecopeland
@indiewebcamp Arkansas' indie band @KnoxHamilton #workitout #7 this week @altnation #alt18 please retweet to help to top 5
(twitter.com/_/status/483838758618673152)
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KartikPrabhu
spammer ^^
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JonathanNeal
KartikPrabhu: I still need to look at what data indie comments give you.
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KartikPrabhu
JonathanNeal: the working version on my site has 1. Author info like name and all that 2. type of response as in "reply" or "like" 3. date 4. content of the response 5. the URL replied to including fragmention if any 6. source of original reply
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JonathanNeal
I’m a little confused by u-in-reply-to. Isn’t it normally more than the fragmention? How do I distinguish them from non-fragmentions comments?
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JonathanNeal
Again, I’m looking for code examples. Sorry, I am very used to an MDN way of learning things.
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KartikPrabhu
u-in-reply-to usually is the full URL of the post, but microformats parsers automatically make an absolute url if there is a relative one so I only need to put the fragmention part in the HTML
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KartikPrabhu
the relative > absolute is true of any u-* property parsing
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KartikPrabhu
JonathanNeal: here is the example: http://indiewebcamp.com/comments-presentation#empty_in-reply-to_inside_comments admittedly the wiki code examples are a bit scattered
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KartikPrabhu
note that I am not using the "empty in-reply-to" method but I adapted it for fragmentions :)
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KartikPrabhu
JonathanNeal: hopefully I'm making sense...
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KartikPrabhu
and we should definitely improve the wiki page using this discussion
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Loqi
chrissaad: tantek left you a message on 6/30 at 8:56am: hope you can make it this Wednesday evening @MozSF! http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-07-02-homebrew-website-club
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JonathanNeal
There’s nothing about the service (via SomeIndieApp) on http://indiewebcamp.com/comments or http://indiewebcamp.com/comments-presentation am I looking at the right place to know how those fit into the comment?
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KartikPrabhu
JonathanNeal: oh you mean the part where someone notifies you of a comment?
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KartikPrabhu
or just marginalia in particular?
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JonathanNeal
One of the fields you are displaying is the service used to send the comment.
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JonathanNeal
Oh, maybe I misunderstood. It’s the site where it came from?
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KartikPrabhu
JonathanNeal: yes! that is the site where the comment originates. So for indiewebsites it shows the domain name. But then bridgy (http://indiewebcamp.com/bridgy) also allows you to get comments from Twitter and Google+ and also FB
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JonathanNeal
I saw something from Twitter, which is why I thought it was “service”. My bad.
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KartikPrabhu
in that case it shows that service name. I am merely truncating the "original url" to the domain name for display :)
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KartikPrabhu
yeah that service is https://www.brid.gy/ by snarfed
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KartikPrabhu
it scrapes your Twitter/Google+ if you sign up and sends webmentions for comments from there
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KartikPrabhu
but in either case you get a webmention from a microformat-markedup page so you can use the microformats to decide the "source url"
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JonathanNeal
but only one link is sent, which is the link to the author’s site?
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KartikPrabhu
yes that is webmention. but bridgy send the url permalink of the Twitter/Google+ post
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KartikPrabhu
but all of that funkiness should be handled by the author's backend not the marginalia/fragmention code
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KartikPrabhu
now that I am explaning this, I realise that there are a lot of moving parts to my comments+marginalia stuff
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JonathanNeal
Yes. I just spent the last few mentions explaining webmentions and fragmentions and marginalia to my non-tech wife.
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KartikPrabhu
nice! did it work? I am interested in the problem of explaining these things to my friends too
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JonathanNeal
She gets it, which means it’s a good idea. I had to gloss over how it works since I don’t exactly understand the mechanics of webmentions yet. I said it’s basically webpage A sending something to webpage B, which now has the option of sharing it.
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KartikPrabhu
yup! basically a notification "hey I have linked to your post"
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bear
I found that webmentions are so very basic that I was tending to over explain them
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bear
and that it's only some of the odd edge cases that made me do that - the core of it is easily grok'd IMO
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KartikPrabhu
JonathanNeal: here was my attempt at a non-technical explanation: https://kartikprabhu.com/article/indieweb-love-blog##provided+by+webmention
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KartikPrabhu
bear: fyi I am working on your "marginalia icon colour" issue now. Might trouble you for feedback
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JonathanNeal
Are you running an older version of fragmention.js? I noticed the second # was escaped which caused it not to work.
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bear
always
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KartikPrabhu
JonathanNeal: weird! it works on my browser and IRC client...
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JonathanNeal
Mine is turned into #%23provided+by+webmention
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bear
same for me on safari
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KartikPrabhu
blergh! more edge cases.
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bear
when clicked on via Textual
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bear
when clicked on viewing irc log from chrome - ##
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bear
and same with FF - ##
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KartikPrabhu
yeah... seems some IRC clients are "too compatible with spec" for such things
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JonathanNeal
fragmention.js handles the escaping, but for some reason, i’m not getting fragmentions on your site. huh.
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JonathanNeal
Oh yea, you need to update fragmention.js to support async load. You are loading the script async.
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KartikPrabhu
JonathanNeal: that could be a old version issue. yes I haven't done the async stuff! my bad...
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KartikPrabhu
benwerd: awesome!
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JonathanNeal
KartikPrabhu: suppose you could share some sample data you get during a webmention and I can reverse engineer it to understand it better?
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KartikPrabhu
is glad that known themes have minimal PHP which I am surely not proefficient in :)
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bear
KartikPrabhu - leave me a note about what to review for colour stuff, i'm heading to bed and i'll catch up tomorrow
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KartikPrabhu
bear: sure thing :)
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@matemaz
If you want to keep in control of your (digital) life join us the 4th of July in Brighton for https://indietech.org/summit/ #indieweb #freedom
(twitter.com/_/status/483856391434960896)
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Loqi
cweiske: tantek left you a message 7 hours, 21 minutes ago: in conversation earlier today with binbasti you said "people here are somehow allergic to the w3 and working groups that produce no working code" - I don't think that is a fair generalization, nor is it reasonable to paint everyone with that brush. If you have specific concerns about specific specs/people, please raise them directly with them.
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@matemaz
pour rester en contrôle de notre vie (digitale) venez ou suivez https://indietech.org/summit/ #indieweb #freedom
(twitter.com/_/status/483856890007670784)
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KartikPrabhu
!tell bear: more "accessible" marginalia icons updated: https://kartikprabhu.com/article/marginalia##that+part+of+the+post might need hard referesh of the CSS. should be a 'hollow' icon when deactivated and on showing marginalia should turn solid and green. but solid is enough :)
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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KartikPrabhu
last thought of the day. In a webmention if the "target" has a fragmention, then the "source" is some marginalia. But what happens if the "source" has a fragmention? can anything coll be done with that?
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KartikPrabhu
s/coll/cool
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Loqi
KartikPrabhu meant to say: last thought of the day. In a webmention if the "target" has a fragmention, then the "source" is some marginalia. But what happens if the "source" has a fragmention? can anything cool be done with that?
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cweiske
KartikPrabhu, theoretically you have to extract the microformats from the child elements of the element with that id
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cweiske
so that one can have a huge page with all notes/comments
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cweiske
and not single urls for each of them
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KartikPrabhu
cweiske: that seems like a convenience for the "source". I there some cool UI stuff the "target" can do?
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cweiske
you could use that to make annotations/notes to specific paragraphs of a blog post for example
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cweiske
like mention.com allows
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KartikPrabhu
Barnaby Walters had this great idea of using fragmentions in reply-contexts to get good blurbs to display
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KartikPrabhu
cweiske: the annotations to a specifi paragraph I've already done :)
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cweiske
but you don't display the comments at that place already, do you?
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KartikPrabhu
I do! https://kartikprabhu.com/article/marginalia hackery from indiewebcamp over this weekend
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KartikPrabhu
look for paragraphs with a little "comment" icon in the end
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cweiske
didn't see them
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KartikPrabhu
now I am wondering what could I do if the "source" in the webmention has a fragmention
#
KartikPrabhu
ok off to bed!
bnvk, Hodgestar, friedcell, BjornW, wagle and Sebastien-L joined the channel
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@agence50A
La suite : et si un indiewebcamp était organisé par 50A á Paris très bientôt ? Vous en dites quoi ?
(twitter.com/_/status/483889136135585792)
krendil, chrissaad, dybskiy, bnvk, petermolnar, sankha93, TimAbraldes, adactio and michielbdejong joined the channel
dreeves, dybskiy, jsilvestre, bnvk, Rev_Illo, bnvk1, terminal2, pbeaulieu, brianloveswords, GWG, Sebastien-L, friedcell, shepazu, adactio_, chloeweil, chloeweil_, adactio, chrissaad and snarfed joined the channel
#
@billywwells
New Billy Wells Horror Book Trailer! https://www.youtube.com/ #horror #kindle #zombies #ebooks #scarystoriestime #amazon #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/483987200514609153)
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bigbluehat
jden: sometime I'd love your thoughts on userinfo.me seems (from last night's chatter) you know the space well :)
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cweiske
bigbluehat, do you know about webfinger?
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bigbluehat
cweiske: yep.
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bigbluehat
had this idea long before that, though
#
bigbluehat
they could solve the same problem
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cweiske
you try to solve the same problem
#
bigbluehat
but I think userinfo.me is simpler and more obvious
#
cweiske
and it breaks all applications that use http basic auth
#
bigbluehat
it doesn't actually
#
bigbluehat
just applications that allowed their users to set blank passwords
#
bigbluehat
additionally, the parsing (which needs fixing) should handle *just* usernames in the userinfo me section
#
cweiske
so I have an application that supports http basic auth running on my domain. how am I supposed to add support to userinfo.me?
#
bigbluehat
the blank password thing is a fall back
#
cweiske
I have to modify the application logic
#
bigbluehat
userinfo.me only covers the root URL
#
cweiske
I know
#
bigbluehat
if I send you a password, log me in
#
bigbluehat
if I don't, tell me about the user
#
cweiske
I have to modify the application logic
#
bigbluehat
not necessarily
#
cweiske
only if my CMS runs on a /path/
#
bigbluehat
you can setup nginx, apache, or whoever, to catch blank password requests
#
bigbluehat
or your CMS could fall back to userinfo.me if no password is sent
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cweiske
have fun with that.
#
cweiske
so I have to modify the application logic
#
bigbluehat
only if you want these features :)
#
bigbluehat
same as anything else
#
bigbluehat
you just handle blank passwords differently than Not Authorized
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cweiske
no. webfinger only requires me to put a script (or even static files) in a defined location
#
bigbluehat
and only at the root URL
#
cweiske
on any server
#
bigbluehat
same for userinfo.me
#
cweiske
no. I need to modify my web server's configuration
#
bigbluehat
but ideally, it would be part of CMS's
#
cweiske
so we're back to my original statement
#
bigbluehat
well...however you want to look at it :)
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cweiske
userinfo.me is much harder to setup than webfinger
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bigbluehat
atm, yes
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cweiske
webfinger is a standard
#
bigbluehat
what CMS do you use?
#
cweiske
that does not matter
#
bigbluehat
userinfo.me isn't...yet :)
#
bigbluehat
well, it does if I were to write a script for it ^_^
#
cweiske
the approach you're using is much harder to implement than dropping a file into .well-known/
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bigbluehat
right. I'm asking more of the Web (both client and server) I realize
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jonnybarnes
I like that having set MySQL to use utf8mb4 my website Just Works™ with emoji
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aaronpk
shoot, I just realized I can't host homebrew website club for the next 2 weeks
#
aaronpk
dietrich_: are you available tomorrow and/or jul 16 to host at mozpdx?
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jden
re get user info, we already have a long-running way to address users on http sites: http://foo.org/~jden
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jden
e.g, npm uses it: http://npm.im/~jden
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aaronpk
most sites don't use the ~ anymore tho
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aaronpk
twitter.com/aaronpk github.com/aaronpk etc
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bnvk
oh the dang tilda
#
bnvk
I love how it looks, but feels so cryptic in URLs
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snarfed
we need a tilda swinton emoji
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snarfed
then the URLs could be site.com/:tilda_swinton:bnvk
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Loqi
gRegor`: bret left you a message on 6/30 at 11:30am: btw thanks for being such an awesome note taker this weekend! really great notes from the sessions you were at
rektide, dybskiy and KartikPrabhu joined the channel
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@jalbertbowdenii
own cloud - web services, and your documents, back under your control https://owncloud.org/ #ownyourdata #freesoftware #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/484038100541534208)
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gRegor`
bret: Glad to. Except for the activism session the end of the day, when I was quickly fading. :)
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gRegor`
(Re: note-taking)
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KartikPrabhu
gregor`: doing a HWC tomorrow?
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gRegor`
Yep, RSVPed a bit ago
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KartikPrabhu
aah cool!
#
KartikPrabhu
seems like the Chicago invasion was successful ;)
#
aaronparecki.com
edited /2014/fix-the-indiewebcamp-wiki (+1852) "copy notes from etherpad"
(view diff)
#
cweiske
aaronpk, did you work on distributed-auth integration in indieauth.com?
#
@kevinmarks
If gawker bans staffers from internal chat so they can publish it, will they go to snapchat/secret or to #indieweb? http://www.niemanlab.org/2014/07/never-go-another-day-without-knowing-what-gawkers-staff-is-eating-for-lunch/
(twitter.com/_/status/484046273721286656)
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aaronpk
cweiske: i'm about 80% finished with it
#
cweiske
coolio
#
aaronpk
ended up working on the indie-reader this weekend instead of finishing it
#
cweiske
how does a reader app authenticate on a website so that it can see the private posts that are meant for the user that owns the reader app?
#
aaronpk
we haven't gotten there yet :)
#
aaronpk
but i'd imagine the reader would obtain an access token for the other site
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aaronpk
that's one level away from how we normally use indieauth, currently the user's browser obtains an access token to someone else's site. in this case the reader app would be obtaining an access token.
#
aaronpk
we haven't had to address this yet because only a few people publish private/restricted posts, it's not a very high priority for many people it seems.
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@elliottucker
RT @kevinmarks: If gawker bans staffers from internal chat so they can publish it, will they go to snapchat/secret or to #indieweb? http://…
(twitter.com/_/status/484047820501311488)
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aaronpk
cweiske: if you start publishing posts that I can only see if I authenticate to your site, then I may have sufficient motivation to figure out how to get my reader to do it
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cweiske
I won't do that in the coming year
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aaronpk
I may, actually. I already have private posts, but I'm missing a customized feed based on the signed-in user.
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aaronpk
I've been slowly building up the dependencies to support it, so I'm getting close
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kartikprabhu.com
edited /User:Kartikprabhu.com (+140) "/* Itching */ notifications, avatar cache"
(view diff)
caseorganic joined the channel
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gRegor`
KartikPrabhu: Yeah! Had a great time
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kartikprabhu.com
edited /User:Kartikprabhu.com (+110) "/* Indie Projects */ ad marginalia"
(view diff)
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cweiske
KartikPrabhu, didn't you also implement indieauth?
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KartikPrabhu
cweiske: implement in what sense?
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cweiske
that someone can login to you homepage with it
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KartikPrabhu
aah no unfortunately not. also I don't seem to have many use cases for that yet
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JonPincus
@aaronpk i am thinking about publishing private posts with visibility based on the signed-in user. of course a first step before that is to support indieauth login :)
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cweiske
aaronpk, did you ever have a look at the CAS protocol? it's 95% compatible with your indieauth protocol invention and defines some other features like autologin
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aaronpk
hm I'll have to look at it again. I did some SSO stuff with CAS on a few sites
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gRegor`
Any ideas why my avatar URL is wonky here? http://bret.io/2014/06/15/likes/ Looks like my author URL "http://gregorlove.com" is prepended to it, but the avatar is already the full URL
#
bret
gRegor`yes, because I broke it
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bret
and there MIGHT be an issue with the way webmention.io parses
#
bret
basically that needs like a few hours of work and I haven't been sufficiently motivated because im working on a way to get that data into the actual html
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kylewm
ha but yes, i guess this line is doing it in the js var avatar = apiData.links[index].data.author.url + apiData.links[index].data.author.photo || null;
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bret
i tried it, broke it, then had to go like, make dinner
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kylewm
hugs python's urllib.parse.urljoin
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KartikPrabhu
hugs python's urlparse.urljoin
#
kylewm
bret: IMO though file a bug with webmention.io
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kylewm
it should be giving you absolute urls
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kylewm
turns his nose up at KartikPrabhu's Python 2 modules
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KartikPrabhu
thanks kylewm for py3 shims in mf2py ;)
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KartikPrabhu
fighting hate with love :P
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gRegor`
Hm, interesting.
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gRegor`
Why did your avatar not break on there, kylewm?
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kylewm
mine h-card photo is a relative URL
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gRegor`
Ahh
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bret
shouldnt you all be using python 3 for your fun projects?
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KartikPrabhu
bret: yes. And I plan on migrating. I just learnt 2 first
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gRegor`
Python 3 is so yesterday. Use Python 4
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gRegor`
;)
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bret
KartikPrabhu im :( about it but im learning 2 as we speak (before 3)
#
bret
not a peep from sandeep this year at iwc :(
#
KartikPrabhu
bret: using py3 *might* have saved me some unicode headache
#
bret
didnt mean to right
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gRegor`
Not much peeping on sandeep.io since May 3, either
#
bret
s/right/rhyme
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Loqi
bret meant to say: didnt mean to rhyme
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gRegor`
"No more rhymes now. I mean it!"
#
bret
also, kylewm, liking the posting of that video isnt ironic. since we created the liking tool we used, we understand (to some degree) its purpose and effect.
#
bret
the tools provided by facebook and twitter have a completely other primary purpose than to just provide virtual karma to each other
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kylewm
bret: totally, and actually i was using that one as a bookmark
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kylewm
which means i haven't seen it yet... :/
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gRegor`
I found a bug with my mf2 markup when I sent the webmention - no p-name. I like that I could just update the markup and re-send it to fix on your site.
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gRegor`
Something you can't do with 99% of blog comment systems out there.
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bret
kylewm, gRegor` its so worth watching!
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kylewm
also lol at webmention.io's mf2 parser
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bret
such cheating
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kylewm
I knew about it but I'd forgotten :)
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@sarahsmall
RT @kevinmarks: If gawker bans staffers from internal chat so they can publish it, will they go to snapchat/secret or to #indieweb? http://…
(twitter.com/_/status/484060378079707136)
#
gRegor`
Heh. Which parser is it using?
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kylewm
php-mf2
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kylewm
indirectly...
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gRegor`
Is there a ruby parser yet?
#
bret
i belive so
#
bret
i think shaners was helping with it
tantek, dkordic and pdurbin joined the channel
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gRegor`
kylewm: Looks like you got indiereader set up, on your laptop?
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kylewm
i did!
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kylewm
i even made a pull request :P
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gRegor`
Woo!
#
gRegor`
I need to set up micropub on my site, then I'm sure I'll be hacking on indiereader some.
#
gRegor`
It's reading mf2 only as of the demo, right? Or XML feeds too?
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kylewm
fairly certain it does both
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kylewm
I think I overheard Ben say that they forgot to demo that part :)
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bret
is it time for h-xoxo for the feed list?
#
bret
cc: tantek ^^
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: gregor`: how do i find this indiereader
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tantek
bret - remind me the URL to the documentation of the use-case that you're trying to solve?
#
KartikPrabhu
nice thanks
#
bret
tantek the common use of opml was for feed reader import/export. the indiereader is just using a list of feeds on the persons site as a source for subscribed feeds i think not supporting any kind of sorting or folders.
#
bret
and as xoxo is the microformat version of opml, maybe that is needed again?
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tantek
last time I checked no modern UX is doing reader import/export
#
tantek
so this sounds like an obsolete use-case
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tantek
alternatively, consider that modern UX (i.e. what silos do) simply have 1) Follow / Add Friend buttons, 2) browsable friends/followings lists
#
bret
every existing and modern feed feed reader uses inport export, and they are all doing it with opml
#
tantek
bret and they are all dying
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KartikPrabhu
sorting/filtering can just be done by having p-category on the feed-subscription no?
#
tantek
don't design for an evaporating lake, design for the ocean
#
tantek
rather
#
tantek
don't (re)design your boats for an evaporating lake, design your boats for the growing oceans
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bret
tantek what do you think about the indiereader that was built the other day?
#
bret
or barnaby's reader
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tantek
barnaby's reader is integrated into his site which he can use to read/write from, that makes sense
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rascul
i will fish a lake until it evaporates, don't want to let them delicious fish die off unless i can eat them
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tantek
rather than reinventing OPML (for dying use-cases), instead focus on how would you build an indieweb "Follow" button
#
tantek
and and indieweb "Add Friend" button
#
tantek
following that line of thinking will get you something silo-competitive in terms of UX
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tantek
following the OPML / feeds lists / import/export path will not.
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bret
ok, so when i log into a reader/new feed, how will my site present its data?
#
bret
or my friends
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bret
or my follows
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tantek
why are you logging into a reader/newfeed? don't you just login to your site?
#
tantek
aside, I'm editing /store right now
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bret
because thats not my idea of how i want my site to be
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bret
just like i have to log into different silos, i dont mind signing into different readers for different views
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bret
or lanching, signing in is pretty much one time for a while
#
bret
the centrality to this concept is my site, where it rakes in and acts as my home base for these other views / experiences / reprisentations
#
bret
some of which i run, some of which friends / others run
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gRegor`
GWG: How was your IWC experience?
#
tantek
bret - you like logging into different silos and having your stuff spread around? caseorganic has repeatedly explained how having all your stuff spread around is a huge negative and leads to sense of loss of control (and actual loss of control)
#
GWG
gRegor`: I wish I hadn't missed Sunday. It seemed like a lot happened I would have liked to be there for
#
GWG
gRegor`: Also I had trouble when I tried to come into the Design thing on Saturday
#
tantek
GWG - it's when things came together and people got stuff working on their own sites!
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bret
tantek no, i dont like my stuff spread around, but I dont mind the different views and tools
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GWG
gRegor`: Next time, will try coverage again
#
GWG
tantek: I saw the logs...as I said...would have loved to be present for it
#
GWG
Next time maybe
#
GWG
tantek: Merely a regret
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gRegor`
GWG: there's pretty good notes on that session, with screenshots: http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/design-elements
#
bret
tantek i like the right tool for the right job, and I think this is echoed as to why people started using the slio apps that do certain things better, ie instagram
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kylewm
GWG: sorry about the poor talky connection, my dinky laptop was not built for such things...
#
bret
but back to my original quention about xoxo, ill play around with how indiereader grabs data from my site and think on it
#
gRegor`
was confused by the xoxo talk at first
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gRegor`
was thinking of the conference.
#
KartikPrabhu
bret: is there some advantage to xoxo vs just plain old mf2?
#
aaronpk
I also do not plan on building a reader into my own site, that's not how I want to use it
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KartikPrabhu
plans to build it in to his own site... someday
#
bret
tantek i am apposed to having to build all my tools/interface into my own site
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aaronpk
that's the whole reason I built indiereader with benwerd this weekend
#
aaronpk
and that's why IndieReader supports micropub
#
benwerd
aaronpk++
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Loqi
aaronpk has 509 karma
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aaronpk
the magic of IndieReader is that if the database blows up, no data is actually lost
#
aaronpk
since the "following" list is on your own site
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tantek.com
edited /store (+419) "re-organize examples vs. specs, move W3C Manifest spec higher up on the page"
(view diff)
#
benwerd
aaronpk: on that note, I've got a pull request open in the mention client lib to replace a preg_replace /e, which is now deprecated in PHP - any chance I can lean on you to take a peek at some point?
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aaronpk
ooh yeah
#
benwerd
(not actually to do with indiereader, but speaking of indieweb tech ..)
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aaronpk
probably not until later tonight
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benwerd
thanks :)
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tantek
bret: re: am I supposed to having to build all my tools/interface into my own site. No, that's what an IndieWeb App Store is for - so you can *install* IndieWeb apps (e.g. perhaps an IndieWeb Reader app) into your own site.
#
bret
since question of opml support came up over the weekend, my first association was to go "oh yeah, isnt there a uF1 version of that?"
#
gRegor`
benwerd: I'm interested in hacking on indiereader, too. Let me know if I can do anything.
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aaronpk
installing an indieweb reader app is still a separate app even if it's on your own site/domain/subdomain
#
tantek
bret - ompl is for outlines - not for lists of friends and followings.
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aaronpk
so it by nature would need an import/export. that's why I wanted to work around that by reading the subscriptions from a page on your *actual* site
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benwerd
gRegor`: honestly still catching my breath, but please do take a look! I know aaronpk, emmak and I want to make it as useful as possible
#
tantek
aaronpk why would you run indiereader on a 3rd party domain rather than your own?
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gRegor`
benwerd: Since I don't have micropub set up yet, I'd probably be interested in setting up a configuration for a URL that "Reply" can point to, so I can at least open the note form on my site to start a new note.
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bret
opml's was only widely used for rss reader import/export as far as I could tell. but that is understandable given its origins ;)
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tantek
sorry to say but import'/export is a UX dead-end
#
tantek
no one maintains their lists of feeds like that, pruning etc.
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aaronpk
I agree that import/export is a dead end
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gRegor`
benwerd: Will do!
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aaronpk
that's why the list lives on your site
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tantek
so stop thinking from OPML outward
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tantek
and instead *start* with the Follow button
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bret
yeah i dont ever want to include the words import export or that feature on my own site
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aaronpk
here's a thought re: indie following
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tantek
right - so when you talk about it from the import/export perspective it puts you on the wrong focus
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aaronpk
right now, IndieReader expects to find a list of URLs for the sites you are subscribed to. Say that page is aaronparecki.com/following
#
aaronpk
that means what I need a "follow" button to do is to add an entry to that page
#
aaronpk
which turns out looks a lot like a micropub request to create a new h-entry
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KartikPrabhu
aaronpk: I was thinking about the same while reading this discussion
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tantek
can you micropub create just a link with a rel value?
#
aaronpk
that's up to your micropub endpoint!
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aaronpk
right now the smallest viable micropub request is h=entry&content=foo
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tantek
aaronpk - just wondering if that's possible in the protocol
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tantek
to create *just* a link - no h-entry
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aaronpk
but why not h=entry&link=http://aaronparecki.com/
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kylewm
s/link/url
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KartikPrabhu
aaronpk: h=subscription&url=foo ?
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bret
i donk thing anyone has worked on a follow feature via micropub yet
#
aaronpk
why no h-entry? benwerd and I had a very brief discussion about this at the beginning of sunday
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tantek
because you follow people not posts
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bret
h-card?
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tantek
you're following PEOPLE
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bret
interesting
#
tantek
which are h-cards
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benwerd
But the h-entry can be the activity announcing that you _are_ following someone?
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aaronpk
for the purposes of the demo we said a subscription list would look like a list of h-entry posts that each contain a u-feed
#
tantek
not POSTS
#
tantek
which are h-entries
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kylewm
julien's subtome is at least valuable prior art on this https://www.subtome.com/#/
#
tantek
back to user-centric please
#
tantek
people follow PEOPLE
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aaronpk
that is totally up for debate, however, we just had to do something
#
tantek
"feeds" are plumbing
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GWG
kylewm: We had intermittent issues
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aaronpk
tantek: what markup would you use if you made a page listing all the *people* you follow?
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bret
follow a person (from their site or other profile), rake in their h-card as a data source for where to follow
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tantek
aaronpk: h=card&link=http://aaronparecki.com/ looks more sensible
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aaronpk
that is the question we wanted to answer and didn't have time to actually think it through
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tantek
since aaronprecki.com is a person
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tantek
not an h-entry
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tantek
aaronpk - re: what markup would you use if you made a page listing all the *people* you follow?
#
tantek
and that's the question partially answered by XFN
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bret
a list of h-feedard :trollface:
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bret
a list of h-cards
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bret
like shaners address book thingy
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tantek
using more literal terminology
#
tantek
a contacts list
caseorganic joined the channel
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gRegor`
And what if we're following a magazine site, instead of a person?
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tantek
because they're *contacts* not addresses
#
tantek
and it's just a *list* not a book
#
tantek
gRegor`: h-card also includes organizations
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aaronpk
so it sounds like we're ending up publishing a "following" list, which is a list of h-cards
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tantek
that's closest to representing the *user* model of following a set of people
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KartikPrabhu
can we call it something other than "following" :P
#
tantek
the closer your underyling data model matches the user model, the better
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bret
please dont call it a friends list, I follow my enemies too
#
tantek
KartikPrabhu: if you have alternate suggestions, see all the work here: http://microformats.org/wiki/xfn-brainstorming#fans_and_followers
#
bret
i mean track >:D
#
KartikPrabhu
"follow" sounds creepy :P
#
tantek
KartikPrabhu: based on existing work. again, alternate suggestions welcome.
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aaronpk
tantek: what is the collection of h-cards called?
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: will look :)
#
aaronpk
assuming the collection has a name
#
tantek
we've tried to document every alternative people came up with, and adv/disadv accordingly
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tantek
aaronpk, see above. contacts list.
#
tantek
I'd say contacts set but that's less user-friendly.
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bret
Peeps
#
bret
h-peeps
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tantek
you'll notice the app in iOS is called "Contacts"
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tantek
not "Address Book"
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aaronpk
is there a microformat for a contacts list? like the list itself, assuming the list has a name
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gRegor`
doesn't think "follow" sounds creepy after 7 years of popular usage
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tantek
that's a very deliberate design change
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KartikPrabhu
bret: I like peeps :P
#
tantek
aaronpk - there is no microformat for lists - since a page with a bunch of instances is a list
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gRegor`
h-peeps is reserved for marking up marshmallow chicks.
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aaronpk
the page title is the title of the list then
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aaronpk
what if I want multiple lists on the same page with different titles?
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tantek
and a bunch of instances inside some other microformat is automatically added to the children array
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aaronpk
could I publish an h-entry containing a bunch of h-cards?
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KartikPrabhu
aaronpk: using h-feed ?
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aaronpk
maybe h-feed is the right thing
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tantek
aaronpk - "what if I want …" (please insert use-case not format description)
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tantek
e.g. "multiple lists on the same page with different titles" is a data description, not a use-case
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KartikPrabhu
so I'd have a h-feed with "name = Friends" with a list of h-cards of friends and make another one for "name=enemies"
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aaronpk
yeah that is what I was going to say
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tantek
nope, h-feed was specifically for the use-cases it was designed for
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: would that not also be the case here. I could choose to "follow" only my friends on an indiereader?
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tantek
and h-feed has the assumption that it's a collection of h-entry
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tantek
it's not an arbitrary h-list h-collection etc.
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aaronpk
use case is one list with name=tech people and a separate list with name=friends
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tantek
because we don't do architecture astronomy here
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tantek
aaronpk - that's a use-case for tagging, which we already have a solution to
#
tantek
h-card p-category
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tantek
so you can tag each contact as you wish
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tantek
friend, foe etc.
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tantek
bestie, lunchbuddy whatever
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: good point
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aaronpk
I want to publicly publish a list of people I follow, but there are some people I follow that I do not want public
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aaronpk
so they need to be in separate lists
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tantek
aaronpk ^^^ write that down on a wiki page
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kylewm
time for /contacts ?
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tantek
kylewm++
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Loqi
kylewm has 20 karma
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tantek
start with the "Why" section where you describe the user-task-centered use-cases
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tantek
not "I want a page with …" or "I want a structure with ..."
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Loqi
gives tantek a page with
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tantek
those are data-driven use-cases and then you end up with /architecture-astronomy
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bret
aaronpk idea
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tantek
I want not Loqi
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bret
aaronpk what if the list expands based on the logged in state of the user?
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tantek
these used to be called "blogrolls" btw
#
bret
or agent
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aaronpk
bret: that could work but it complicates things some
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tantek
how else do you get a union of public+private followings?
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: saw this on the "follower/following" discussion http://microformats.org/wiki/xfn-brainstorming#rel-reader and this objection "and rel-values need to be nouns" but isn't following a verb too
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tantek
aside: that /store page is really quite a mess - so many duplicated areas / concepts and the page seems to meander and not have a specific structure
#
tantek
I tried to cleanup the top part of /store but the whole rest of it seems like a mishmash of hopes, wants, desires, examples all interspersed with each other
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JonathanNeal
I explained webmentions to my co-workers today. It wasn’t as easy as explaining it to my wife, because they cared more about the implementation.
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tantek
I'm leary of "cleaning" it up as I don't want to lose whatever the contributors were intending
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tantek
JonathanNeal: lol
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KartikPrabhu
JonathanNeal: :)
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bret
aaronpk the url would remain the same, but passing a token as a parameter or something results in the expanded feed with private info that the token is allowed to get at
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tantek
JonathanNeal: for co-workers, use this: it's like pingback without the xml-rpc
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: JonathanNeal and I had an extended discussion about needing example code on the wiki pages
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KartikPrabhu
is that a good idea?
#
tantek
there is example code on the wiki pages
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KartikPrabhu
as an example: the markup for a minimal comment
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tantek
oh I think I remember seeing that
#
tantek
of course that request is ambiguous
#
tantek
see my follow-up when you guys were last discussing that
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JonathanNeal
Ha! I don’t work at a tech company anymore so xml-rpc references wouldn’t make anything easier.
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tantek
JonathanNeal: it does, as it makes them go look it up rather than ask about the implementation
#
aaronpk
bret: yeah I know what you mean
#
tantek
aaronpk - why not fully indieauth for viewing private information?
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tantek
how are private followings any different than a private message?
#
tantek
private is private right?
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JonathanNeal
I don’t think the implementation is hard, though, and it’s my ability to communicate it. It just means I don’t get the implementation as well. I am getting better.
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tantek
JonathanNeal: it's ok I don't even have a webmention implementation myself :/
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aaronpk
yeah presenting an access token when making a request to a following list makes sense
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pauloppenheim
tantek: that's better than having a webmention receiver but not a publishing system :)
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KartikPrabhu
JonathanNeal: in my experience implementing it helped me understand most of the details :)
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aaronpk
...yeah I don't know what this should look like at all...
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aaronpk
let me know what you think, i'm open to suggestions http://aaronparecki.com/following and parsed: http://aaronparecki.com/following.json
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bret
aaronpk what, selective feed content based on a token?
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aaronpk
no, the following list
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aaronpk
tantek: feel free to rip that to shreds :)
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bret
aaronpk presumably you should keep track of all the other rel=me's you find on those urls?
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aaronpk
for identity consolidation?
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bret
yeah, you press follow and you then rake in all the data you can find on available data feeds
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aaronpk
yeah that'd be cool
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aaronpk
but that's like v3 or v4 feature :)
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bret
err, you know what I mean.. "press follow" then parse out their h-card info on their domain or whatever
#
bret
the reader would then have their site's stuff, but lets say you follow tantek, and you also want to see his instagram stuff
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bret
the reader could find that too
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aaronpk
ha who sent a webmention for wikipedia?
#
bret
olololollo
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bret
not me
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aaronpk
JonathanNeal: technically the whole microformats part is outside the scope of webmention
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gRegor`
I might be duplicating others' work and I'm sure it's far from complete, but I've been maintaining an "indieweb" list on Twitter for my own ease of filtering in the Twitter app: https://twitter.com/gregorlove/lists/indieweb
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JonathanNeal
I’m still shakey on when to call them webmentions or mentions. aaronpk I had no idea. I thought the webmention requires mf parsing.
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gRegor`
goes through the guest list to add more
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aaronpk
all that is required is that there's a link on the source page to the target, it doesn't *have* to be an h-entry post
#
aaronpk
it's just that it's way more useful if it does
#
aaronpk
but what actually happens when a webmention is received is up to the receiver
#
KartikPrabhu
JonathanNeal: the webmention is just the notification protocol. it is up to the receiver how to parse it. Microformats seem to be the one is use here.
#
KartikPrabhu
one could imagine a webmention receiver parsing for RDFa <gasp>
#
KartikPrabhu
also JonathanNeal's view might have been coloured by my explanation last night :)
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kylewm
aaronpk: haha i sent the webmention. i added a redirect from Webmention -> WebMention
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gRegor`
I thought non-camel-cased was the preferred usage
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tantek
aaronpk - sort of - about webmention - that's a minimal definition
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gRegor`
(Though I've seen it both ways in different places)
#
tantek
however, just as pingback makes presentation suggestions, so does webmention
#
tantek
thus, as JonathanNeal is presume, webmention *does* imply some amount of microformats support for proper presentation of webmentions
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JonathanNeal
So, what do I call it?
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tantek
what is it?
#
kylewm
gRegor`: I think so too. I tried to type in wikipedia.org/webmention and it didn't find anything
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kylewm
so i added the redirect
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tantek
kylewm: on wikipedia?
#
gRegor`
Oh, I misunderstood you
#
gregorlove.com
edited /webmention (+0) "Capitalization: Webmention"
(view diff)
#
tantek
so back to the contacts thing
#
tantek
simplest solution is just a page of links with rel values
#
tantek
no h-* needed at all
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tantek
just rel=following for people/sites you're following. this is a re-use of Twitter's terminology
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GWG
July 5th they are staging a production of 1776...wonder if I should go.
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aaronpk
can i put rel=following on an h-card?
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tantek
GWG - do they have an indiewebsite?
#
tantek
or was that #indiechat? ;)
#
GWG
tantek: Don't know. Which is why Im going to #indiechat
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aaronpk
hm no that doesn't make sense
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GWG
tantek: I'll write about it on my indiesite?
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: this could be combined with the h-card business. For instance I could have an h-card with multiple urls, hompage, twitter etc... and choose to rel=following only some of them
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tantek
aaronpk yes: <a rel=following href=https://aaronparecki.com class=h-card>Aaron Parecki</a>
#
tantek
which is one step up from simple links
#
tantek
it's step two, simple links with linktext
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tantek
and as soon as you have *two* pieces of information to associate like that then it makes sense to wrap them in an h-*, in this case, an h-card
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: exactly
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aaronpk
i'm not really liking the way this parsed version ends up http://aaronparecki.com/following.json
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tantek
aaronpk - yup - this is why we got away from mixing rel and h-*
#
tantek
you use one OR the other
#
tantek
either you use the simple rel-only approach
#
tantek
OR you put things in a bunch of h-*
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tantek
e.g. we have rel=author for JUST a link
#
tantek
and we have h-entry p-author h-card for more structure
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aaronpk
so i would use u-following on the link then and stop using the rel value?
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KartikPrabhu
u-following makes sense
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tantek
aaronpk - OR make a new singular replacement for h-card
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tantek
is it about the link/site or about the person?
#
tantek
is the focus the subscription? or the person?
#
tantek
conceptually - to the user
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aaronpk
here's a use case that makes it more about the subscription:
#
tantek
per the question about following someone's instagram
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tantek
that's why I was asking - I thought you might have such a use case :)
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aaronpk
I want to get push notifications when certain people post, but no notifications for the rest
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aaronpk
(I do this with twitter right now)
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tantek
on a people level? or a subscription level?
#
tantek
(for everything they post? or for only certain kinds of things or sources of their posts?)
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aaronpk
actually specific kinds of posts, since I also do it on foursquare
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tantek
aaronpk - the easy option is the put a p-category of "notifications" on those you want to receive notifications from
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tantek
aaronpk - perhaps document these notifications use-cases on /notification
#
tantek
(I think all the notification use-cases you gave are good ones)
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tantek
what if I told you you might want to follow *any* kind of object?
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aaronpk
object being...?
#
tantek
person, company, post (i.e. the comments on a post), event (invitations, rsvps, comments on the event)
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aaronpk
oh yeah totally, that came up in the reader discussion!
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aaronpk
I often follow a hashtag temporarily
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tantek
this is not a hypothetical, this is *exactly* what FB has already implemented, seamlessly
#
tantek
with the user needing to do any feed management
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aaronpk
well the user does some feed "management", at least in terms of "muting" or "unsubscribing" a thread
#
tantek
managing your followings is too hard / socially awkward for users - so the (smarter) silos have figured out how to *infer* a dynamic set of followings in realtime
#
tantek
aaronk - they are tweaking knobs, rather than doing any heavy lifting
#
tantek
huge difference in "management"
#
tantek
this is another way the silos have innovated beyond the reader/feed model of yore
#
tantek
and another example of why when designing these systems for the indieweb - we should look at silo UX *instead of* any legacy reader/feed examples/thinking etc.
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aaronpk
super good example
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tantek
when I say the reader/feed model is dead, this is what I'm talking about
#
tantek
so a) stop using it as a starting point, and b) pushback against *anyone* in the indieweb community who starts with an assumption of reader or feed.
#
tantek
with that example for example
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aaronpk
so this is actually a great reason for the "following" or "subscription" list to live on your own site
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aaronpk
assumign that this subscription list is changing rapidly because of intelligent systems doing adds/deletes on the fly like the silos,
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aaronpk
these subscriptions may be changing from based on many sources, not just the reader interface
#
tantek
correct
#
tantek
or even mutes/unmutes
#
tantek
rather than explicit deletes
#
tantek
or maybe thresholds - only show me items from this person that someone else has commented on
#
tantek
only show me items from NYTimes that 3+ friends have commented on
#
tantek
(or other activity including liking, reposting)
#
tantek
I think the term "subscription" really stagnated blog/reader/feed UX btw
#
tantek
both Twitter and FB completely ditched "subscription"
#
tantek
Twitter replace subscriptions with followings
#
tantek
s/replace/replaced
#
Loqi
tantek meant to say: Twitter replaced subscriptions with followings
#
tantek
Facebook replace subscriptions with - a union of *multiple* things: followings, friends, pages you've liked, events you've been invited to, groups you're a member of, posts you've commented on, posts you're mentioned in
#
tantek
wonders if benwerd is quietly lurking in the background and reading with careful critical analysis.
#
KartikPrabhu
youtube still uses "subscribe"
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: and how well is that working out?
#
KartikPrabhu
unknown to me :)
#
tantek
youtube is good for embedding videos and not much more
#
tantek
the rest of their UI pretty much sucks
#
tantek
people, comments, likes etc. huge mess.
#
KartikPrabhu
has permanently blocked youtube comments with an ad-blocker :P
#
tantek
they're popular for free video hosting/embedding - that's about it.
#
tantek
not sure there's much else good to learn from Youtube UX
#
benwerd
actually had a team conversation about this this morning. A key consideration for us is making sure that Known sites don't feel "empty" when you first set one up - finding a way to connect to the wider constellation of sites out there helps you feel like you're part of a wider community
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tantek
benwerd - that's the cold start problem
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benwerd
inferring connections to conversations you might be interested in
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benwerd
right - and something that's directly connected to reading, as you've all identified above
#
tantek
and again, something you can trivially research by creating a new Twitter account and seeing what they do
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aaronpk
oh man the twitter onboarding has been getting so annoying
#
tantek
so again, the silos have solved the cold start problem. just go research what they do and document it on the wiki - if that's a problem that concerns you
#
benwerd
we called out the twitter UX for this as not being great
#
benwerd
basically encourages you to follow celebrities
#
KartikPrabhu
tantek: but on the indieweb how to you suggest things in a decentralized manner?
#
tantek
aaronpk - annoying to us
#
tantek
but apparently useful to "typical" "new" users
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benwerd
mm, we're still thinking about it, but will document etc once we've distilled
#
tantek
benwerd - not distilled nor thinking but research
#
tantek
why not document - what does twitter do? what does fb do? etc.
#
aaronpk
and tumblr while we're at it
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tantek
that requires little to no thinking, and no distilling
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benwerd
tantek - yep, semantics but that's what we're doing
#
tantek
yes tumblr too
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benwerd
also medium, hi, etc etc
#
tantek
right
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aaronpk
the "upload your contact list" "feature" that mobile apps do is another way to address this
#
tantek
I'm pretty convinced that you won't design something good unless you do and document that research first
#
tantek
aaronpk - sort of? they more "sync your contact list"
#
aaronpk
they usually prompt with "give us access to your contact list so you can connect with your friends using this app
#
tantek
benwerd - agreed about twitter not being great for encouraging you to follow celebs - however, that observation deserves to be in a "Criticism" subsection of a "Twitter" section on /cold-start !
#
tantek
if you guys discussed this over the weekend, which session was it captured in?
#
aaronpk
i think it's actually a syncing process, but it's often presented as an upload
#
tantek
(wiki URL)
#
tantek
aaronpk agreed
#
gregorlove.com
created /2014/indie-reader (+1257) "import notes"
(view diff)
#
aaronpk
thx gRegor` can you also drop the wiki link at the top of the etherpad page to note that it's been imported?
#
tantek
anyway - I'm pretty far from integrating reading into my site unfortunately - I'm just hoping to avoid having folks who *are* working on reading go off the dead-end of aggregators / feed-managment / import/export / subscriptions etc.
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gRegor`
Hm?
#
gRegor`
Oh, gotcha
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aaronpk
tantek: agreed
#
gregorlove.com
edited /2014/indie-reader (+3) "/* Session Notes */"
(view diff)
#
gregorlove.com
edited /2014/indie-reader (+30) "/* Session Notes */ basic subheadings"
(view diff)
#
tantek
aaronpk - for that reason, I'll leave it up to the folks actively scratching their reader itch to document the above issues/concerns and alternate perspectives (silo ux as inspiration, follow button etc., following all kinds of things beyond people, minimizing "subscription" management ) etc.
#
tantek
document on the wiki that is
#
gregorlove.com
edited /2014/indie-reader (+22) "/* Current readers */ link people"
(view diff)
#
tantek
(also helps by filtering it through someone else's notion of what is useful and not)
#
tantek
useful *feedback
caseorganic joined the channel
#
gregorlove.com
edited /2014/indie-reader (+59) "/* Session Notes */ link to github"
(view diff)
#
gregorlove.com
edited /2014/indie-reader (-2) "/* Session Notes */"
(view diff)
#
GWG
tantek: Got a moment?
#
gRegor`
hands GWG a moment
#
aaronpk
GWG: it's usually better to just ask your question
#
GWG
tantek: You could be busy.
#
KartikPrabhu
gregor`: are you trying to play Loqi?
#
GWG
tantek: custom URL handlers, such as the tel:// etc are not registered on all systems. Would something to register them to do something be worth doing to enhance people focused communication?
#
gRegor`
Who, me?
#
KartikPrabhu
well played!
#
gRegor`
yay!
#
Loqi
yay!
#
kylewm
hahaha
#
gRegor`
Like a browser extension, GWG?
#
snarfed
GWG: on android, we could do that pretty easily as part of https://github.com/snarfed/open-in-app . wouldn't even need new code, just new config snippets
#
GWG
snarfed: What about desktop?
#
snarfed
GWG: yup, that'd be something else
#
GWG
The only thing I've ever seen register a URL handler recently is Gmail.
#
GWG
So, there is need for a tool, possibly
#
gRegor`
Skype registers(ed?) its own handle
#
peat
Whoops. I left my IRC window open and missed the earlier CSS notes, aaronpk. I'm going to jump into the rename updates and merge changes from the teahouse this evening. :)
#
gRegor`
I think an extension would be good. Maybe like webactions - allow different preferences. E.g. if I click a phone number in the browser, maybe I'd rather add it to a contact record
#
snarfed
GWG: google finds desktop apps for mac and windows pretty easily. e.g. http://onflapp.wordpress.com/lincastor/ ,
#
aaronpk
peat: I also gave you a hacky way to do your own custom stylesheet. make a file called peat.org/indiewebcamp.css :)
#
gRegor`
Ooh
#
gRegor`
User stylesheets on the wiki has been something I wanted. I was really excited for the fix the wiki project.
arlen joined the channel
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aaronpk
i still don't know why mediawiki's user stylesheets aren't working, and the people in #mediawiki didn't have any other suggestions, so I did this instead
#
gRegor`
Does it work for everyone?
#
peat
aaronpk: Snazzy! I'm all for it.
#
GWG
snarfed: Linux user
#
snarfed
GWG: great! i expect there are similar linux programs. try searching?
#
peat
... the rework done this weekend should actually make it easier to do custom stylesheets. Instead of a billionty CSS hacks, it's more-or-less plain vanilla Foundation (http://foundation.zurb.com/).
#
tantek
GWG - re: registering common handlers - depends on the system I suppose
#
tantek
since the focus is *mobile* - I'd start there.
#
tantek
e.g. you have an android right?
#
gRegor`
Nice, peat
#
JonathanNeal
I was a little confused earlier. Are they WebMentions or Webmentions?
#
aaronpk
prefers not camel case
#
KartikPrabhu
JonathanNeal: I use normal case too
#
gRegor`
The IWC wiki page /webmention consistently uses normal casing now.
#
gRegor`
webmention.org should probably be updated to match (and perhaps capture other newer changes?)
#
aaronpk
it is entirely normal case too
#
gRegor`
Nevermind, looks like it already does
#
gRegor`
Cool
#
gRegor`
So only wikipedia has CamelCase
#
aaronpk
heh yeah
#
kylewm
anybody who's made > 10 edits can move the wikipedia page
#
kylewm
i've only made 5 apparently
#
gRegor`
Anyone have expansion on http://indiewebcamp.com/style-guide#The_Web_vs_the_web, since it's blank? Or just remove it?
#
benwerd
("Indieweb" or "Indie Web"?)
#
gRegor`
I can do it, kylewm
#
JonathanNeal
What does it mean when the Webmention 0.2 spec says “the webmention endpoint is advertised in the HTTP Link header“?
#
JonathanNeal
This is listed as an alternative to a <link> or <a> element with rel=“webmention".
#
KartikPrabhu
JonathanNeal: when you link to some page and want to send a webmention you have to find the webmention endpoint. One way to do this is to look for rel=webmention in <link> or <a> but another would be to look for it in the Headers that the page gives you
#
aaronparecki.com
created /wiki/redesign (+824) "notes on wiki redesign"
(view diff)
#
gRegor`
JonathanNeal: e.g. if you inspect the response headers on gregorlove.com, you'll see Link: <http://gregorlove.com/webmention/>
#
gRegor`
rel="webmention"
#
kylewm
bear pointed out this weekend that Link: in a header is not as reliable as <link> in the document -- that it may be removed by a proxy for example
#
kylewm
sweet, thanks gRegor`
#
gRegor`
kylewm: Interesting. I choose to do both the header and <link> element.
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kylewm
we should add /IndieWebCamp
#
Loqi
fo sho
#
gRegor`
I wondered if it had been added before and removed for notability or something
#
gRegor`
I noticed it red-linked from Tantek
#
kylewm
gRegor`: I think doing both was the recommendation
#
kylewm
the header might save you a fetch, and then you can fall back on the html
#
gRegor`
Nope, doesn't appear to be any history.
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gRegor`
Have at it! :)
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tantek
what did I redlink?
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aaronpk
from tantek's wikipedia page
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gRegor`
You didn't
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gRegor`
The IndieWebCamp link from your wikipedia is a redlink, tantek.
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tantek
I blame tommorris
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GWG
snarfed: Can't the browser register handers for itself?
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GWG
Then it is platform neutral
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snarfed
GWG: but the actual handler programs are platform-specific
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snarfed
GWG: and in practice the mapping often leaks into the OS a bit too, as opposed to being just in the browser
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GWG
snarfed: But this is the Indieweb room...I'm assuming the handler is a website
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snarfed
GWG: not really. it will usually be a native app
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snarfed
in practice, on most platforms, the best way to e.g. make a phone call or send an SMS is an app, not a web site
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tantek
with those conditionals yes. i think we're still trying to make it even *possible* to make a phone call from a website to a website.
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tantek
talky is more like a conference call you go join
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gRegor`
There's now two redlinks to IndieWebCamp, kylewm. I added a citation template on wikipedia's IWC link. :)
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: I noticed your SMS thingie sends msg to tantek@tantek.com how do you handle those and forward to your non-phone?
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tantek
I don't worry about it - their client handles it.
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: whose client?
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tantek
either they are on iOS or have the iMessages app in which case it works like an SMS using Apple's servers
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tantek
or if they're e.g. on Android it redirects it to the Hangouts app which sends an email via their phone provider email address
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tantek
either way it works
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tantek
no handling needed by me :)
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KartikPrabhu
I wonder what my phone provider email is...
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: click on the txt message link to me and I'll tell you :)
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KartikPrabhu
I already sent you a msg :P
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KartikPrabhu
so the idea is that the phone company converts the SMS/MMS to an email and send it to your address?
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GWG
snarfed: But shouldn't both options be possible? For me to register twitter:// to twitter.com or to the Twitter app?
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GWG
Or so on
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: no your non-iOS device does the conversion
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tantek
your client device knows your phone provider email address
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snarfed
GWG: sure…but we're getting pretty down into the weeds. maybe go back to a single concrete use case, build that, then expand
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KartikPrabhu
huh! never knew that at all
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: what was your area code?
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KartikPrabhu
chicago area
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gRegor`
KartikPrabhu: For iMessage specifically, Apple maps your specified email address(es) and phone number so other iOS devices can send a text to any of them.
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gRegor`
I only have an iPad, but for experimenting with iMessage I set up an iMessage account using chat@ my domain
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gRegor`
So you can do it without a phone number even. Pretty cool.
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gRegor`
Though, obvoiusly, Apple is being the silo there. :)
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aaronpk
imessage is basically just jabber
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KartikPrabhu
tantek also does it without phone number
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aaronpk
i think it actually is underneath, but that might no longer be true
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gRegor`
Also some privacy concerns with them being able to decrypt messages, allegedly. It's been a while since I read up on that.
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aaronpk
think of it more like you can sign in to your imessage account on multiple devices rather than how you think of SMS
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gRegor`
KartikPrabhu: I'm guessing tantek's number is associated with his iMessage since he's on iOS.
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gRegor`
I just meant I have no number associated because I'm not on iphone
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gRegor`
too many i-things
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GWG
snarfed: I'm thinking about my Chromebook, which I take on trips, mostly.
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KartikPrabhu
tantek was using his iPod
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gRegor`
Oh!
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tantek
Kartik your +1 number @tmomail.net
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: o i see how this works! thanks...
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GWG
How does anyone know what people's preferred communications methods are if they are situational
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KartikPrabhu
mobile companies don't tell you this email thingie
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tantek
GWG - it's up to you to have your website auto update based on your situation
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tantek
people can't know your contextual preferences
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tantek
all they can do is know to go to your /contacts.html page and tap the first button they see that they like
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bear
aaronpk it still does deep in the bowels of iMessage
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gRegor`
It's probably buried on the Tmo site somewhere, heh
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bear
for multiple device routing
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Loqi
bear: KartikPrabhu left you a message on 7/1 at 12:15am: more "accessible" marginalia icons updated: https://kartikprabhu.com/article/marginalia##that+part+of+the+post might need hard referesh of the CSS. should be a 'hollow' icon when deactivated and on showing marginalia should turn solid and green. but solid is enough :)
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tantek
gRegor`, KartikPrabhu I prefer Apple and FB as silos to the phone companies
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gRegor`
True
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tantek
it's very much a matter of continuously choosing less harmful options for short term practical reasons
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gRegor`
Just a mention, not a critique for using it.
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gRegor`
iMessage obviously works great for a lot of people
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tantek
gRegor`: it is a valid critique
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gRegor`
KartikPrabhu: Just tried emailing your tmomail.net address
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gRegor`
To see if it shows as a text, or what
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KartikPrabhu
gregor`: interesting will watch ou
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KartikPrabhu
well so far nothing happened :P
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gRegor`
tantek: you said the email was "+1###...@tmomail.net", no separators on the numbers?
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gRegor`
There's probably some secret inbox to check. Or they just /dev/null it. :)
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gRegor`
Back in a bit.
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tantek
gRegor`: right
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GWG
tantek: That seems like a wiki page discussion, doesn't it?
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KartikPrabhu
can't find his phone-email address anywhere on tmobile's site!
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gRegor`
So weird.
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gRegor`
Document your work, T-mo!
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GWG
tantek: Where would that go? Contextual communications?
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: replied to your message :)
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KartikPrabhu
yeah got it as MMS!
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tantek
I should say, I replied *from my ipod*
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KartikPrabhu
wonder why gregor` s msg never arrived
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KartikPrabhu
oh hey! gregor` received just now as SMS
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bear
http://support.t-mobile.com/docs/DOC-3309 <-- t-mobile support doc on the email interface
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tantek
bear - probably worth adding that to /tmobile
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bear
oh sure, make me be productive after a disappointing futbol match :/
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tantek
come on, you can use a bit of dopamine for the satisfaction of that edit ;)
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tantek
oh wait that joke was in #microformats ;)
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KartikPrabhu
bear: judas priest how did you dig that up!
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: stop mixing your channels!
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JonathanNeal
The Link header spec uses a lot of dissimilar markup, ie it looks ugly to me http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5988
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bear
KartikPrabhu - i've been a t-mobile user for a long time and before pagerduty and the like that was the best way to do low-cost alerts
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aaronpk
I used to post status updates to my website by sending an SMS from my candybar phone to my web server in 2003
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tantek
aaronpk awesome - you should add that to p3k :)
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aaronpk
via verizon's sms email gateway
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KartikPrabhu
ooo that will be good to know! aaronpk
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KartikPrabhu
JonathanNeal: Link Headers seem mesys yes
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aaronpk
tantek: what I should actually do is create an SMS-to-micropub service so anyone can use it :)
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bear
is there a tmobile page?
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KartikPrabhu
aaronpk++ nice idea!
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Loqi
aaronpk has 510 karma
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tantek
bear - just assume there is, and if there isn't, click Create and start with {{stub}} :)
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aaronpk
anybody else interested in posting to their site via SMS? or is that too last decade?