#indiewebcamp 2014-07-02

2014-07-02 UTC
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bear.im
created /tmobile (+94) "sms/email gateway doc link"
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benwerd joined the channel
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tantek
aaronpk - no that's definitely this decade in the middle east e.g. twitter
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GWG
tantek: what would you suggest I call a page on my brainstorming on the matter of changing communications links on a site based on the owner's context.
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tantek
GWG - that wasn't so much brainstorming as asking a question - and the answer I gave was something I already blogged about in greater detail here: http://tantek.com/2013/338/b1/people-focused-mobile-communication-experience#context-presence
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tantek
(I should have provided that URL before - apologies)
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tantek
I've been wikifying the broader concept of indieweb site based communication at http://indiewebcamp.com/communication
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gRegor`
aaronpk: posting via SMS will be a hipster thing here in a few years, I'm sure? :)
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kylewm
aaronpk: would it be SMS or email?
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gRegor`
(in the west)
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gRegor`
!tell KartikPrabhu cool! So I guess it was delayed a few minutes, but worked.
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi
KartikPrabhu: gRegor` left you a message 6 minutes ago: cool! So I guess it was delayed a few minutes, but worked.
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GWG
tantek: I wanted to write out my thoughts. But perhaps an article on my site is better for tat.
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tantek
GWG - yeah - also why I blogged it first
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KartikPrabhu
GWG: yes. don't let the wiki become another silo :P
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tantek
it felt too unstructured and personal / fluffy idea so I decided to blog it
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: haha - the wiki is a /commons :)
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tantek
GWG - to be clear - great to have more people thinking about indieweb comms
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tantek
*please* *do* blog about it :)
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KartikPrabhu
yes. but we could always blog own ideas to own site and then POSSE it to wiki on further discussion :)
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gRegor`
So, h-card question going back to IWC on Sunday.
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KartikPrabhu
that way there can also be a "Articles on" section
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KartikPrabhu
yes! that's what I meant but for all ideas :)
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gRegor`
I'm already realizing my markup is a bit off in that I combined rel-author with h-card, so ignore that for now, but on this URL: http://gregorlove.com/battlestaramandica/articles/a-good-start/
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: that shows the webmentions for that page?
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KartikPrabhu
ooo that might work :)
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gRegor`
Amanda's info in the sidebar is an h-card, but it's outside the h-entry.
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gRegor`
I suppose I could move it into the h-entry with some fiddling, but I'm wondering is it best to just link to the /about page using rel-author?
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gRegor`
*and*, if I do so, should the sidebar even be marked up as an h-card on the individual posts?
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tantek
gRegor`: why not <a rel=author href="/"></a> ?
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KartikPrabhu
gregor`: tantek.com has a common h-card which uses.. uh yeah that ^
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gRegor`
tantek: There is no h-card on amandamaclean.com currently and won't be for the near future, unless/until it's redesigned.
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gRegor`
I could put an invisible one, of course, but since I'm already displaying them on the /about and blog pages...
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gRegor`
was looking for an easy way to use those.
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gRegor`
This blog will reside at battlestaramandica.amandamaclean.com, btw
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gRegor`
I agree a common h-card is the ideal and eventually will probably have that.
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gRegor`
For now I'm thinking of using /about as that common h-card though, which makes me wonder if there's any reason to mark up the h-card in the sidebar of the individual posts.
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kylewm
does aaron's php-comments library follow rel=author?
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tantek
kylewm - another way to ask that is how much of /authorship does php-comments implement?
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gRegor`
Another way of framing my thoughts: maybe it's not necessary to mark the sidebar up as an h-card even though the info maps nicely to an h-card?
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kylewm
right now I know, mf2util will only process the microformats it's given ... it does not make any additional requests
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gRegor`
indiewebify.me does not support rel-author as far as I could tell on Sunday
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gRegor`
Might pick your brain about this tomorrow, KartikPrabhu. Might be easier in person than in text.
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kylewm
!tell aaronpk am i right in reading php-comments that it assumes the author's h-card is embedded in the h-entry? i.e. 1 & 2 of http://indiewebcamp.com/authorship
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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kylewm
that could have been phrased better...
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gRegor`
kylewm: Is that on indieweb or aaronpk github?
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gRegor`
will take a look
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kylewm
indieweb
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gRegor`
Doesn't look like it handles rel-author, as far as I can tell.
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kylewm
gRegor`: why not make the whole page an h-entry on http://gregorlove.com/battlestaramandica/articles/a-good-start/
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KartikPrabhu
gregor`: user thing
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KartikPrabhu
s/user/sure
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Loqi
KartikPrabhu meant to say: gregor`: sure thing
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gRegor`
That's a good option, kylewm. I'd need to do something for the main blog list then, too: http://gregorlove.com/battlestaramandica/
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tantek
gRegor`: right - every permalink page should just be an h-entry at the top level
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gRegor`
I think <a href="http://gregorlove.com/battlestaramandica/" rel="author"> would work for everything.
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kylewm
gRegor`: main blog list should be an h-feed, with a p-author
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kylewm
rel=author looks good per the spec, but it doesn't look like any authorship implementations follow it? I think KartikPrabhu's might
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gRegor`
Hm
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gRegor`
I follow it for my webmention implementation
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gRegor`
Though it doesn't have extensive real-world testing
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gRegor`
Each h-entry within the h-feed still needs a p-author, though, right? For which I could use a rel-author to the first page of the blog list.
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: gregor`: not sure mine does at the moment... will check
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kylewm
gRegor`: if an h-entry doesn't have its own author, it assumes the author of the h-feed it's a part of
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gRegor`
Ahh
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gRegor`
Does indiewebify.me need to be updated? It recommends <a rel="author" class="p-author h-card" href="…">Your Name</a> for an author. I thought I saw tantek say earlier it should be either a rel or an h-card, but not both.
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gRegor`
Every time I think I *kind* of have mf2 down, some new case confuses me. :)
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gRegor`
Alright, think I've got the permalink page sorted out: http://gregorlove.com/battlestaramandica/articles/a-good-start/
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kylewm
i'm not sure on the rel vs. class thing... that was in reference to rel=following links for the reader
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gRegor`
Noticed you bumped your test size up on your site kyle. Looks good
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gRegor`
*text
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tantek
gRegor`: the recommendation is correct for simple single element a href h-card like that
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tantek
that way consumers of rel=author that don't (yet) support h-card will follow the link and work that way
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tantek
(there are rel-author rel-me consumers, e.g. google spiders)
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gRegor`
Ah
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gRegor`
should I add a rel-author link in the h-card that points to http://gregorlove.com/battlestaramandica/ ?
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gRegor`
guesses yes, based on tantek's own implementation
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tantek
wait - this shouldn't be a subdomain
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tantek
er shoulnd't be a path
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tantek
SHOULD be a subdomain
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tantek
we discussed this in NYC
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tantek
and Sandro even documented it
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gRegor`
It's going to be a subdomain. Ran into dns issues
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gRegor`
On Sunday, the subdomain was actually just a frame redirect to this, but now even that's broken somehow
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gRegor`
(Probabl because 1and1 sucks)
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GWG
gRegor`: Amen to 1&1 sucking
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gRegor`
Sorry for the confusing URLs. It will be at http://battlestaramandica.amandamaclean.com/
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tantek
GWG - perhaps add something about 1&1 on /webhosting ?
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tantek
or gRegor`
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gRegor`
tantek: Should I add <a href="http://gregorlove.com/battlestaramandica/" rel="author">Amanda MacLean</a> inside the h-card on that post?
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tantek
no that is the h-card
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tantek
that's the point
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tantek
if there's an img it should go inside the link
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gRegor`
I'm confused on the combination of rel-author in a one-line h-card then
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tantek
why? the example you gave above made sense
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tantek
from indiewebifyme
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gRegor`
I don't understand why you add rel=author on a one-line h-card (like on your posts), but not on other h-cards, like this one I've set up in the <aside> element.
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gRegor`
Is rel=author in combination with class=h-card saying "Go find the h-card over there"?
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gRegor`
Because I was reading it as "this is the h-card"
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tantek
gRegor`: rel=author only on the one-line p-author h-card inside the h-entry
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gRegor`
I think this is a good candidate for updates on http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-author
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gRegor`
It's still not really clear to me the "why" behind it.
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gRegor`
Or a /rel-author on iwc. It just links to the mf wiki currently
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gregorlove.com
edited /rel-author (+688) "Question section"
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gRegor`
tantek: Hopefully I've documented my question better on /rel-author now
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gregorlove.com
edited /rel-author (+10) "/* Questions */"
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tantek
gRegor`: rel applies only the <a href>
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tantek
so if/when you put it on other elements it does nothing
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gRegor`
I'm talking about it on an <a href>
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tantek
and if you use rel in combination with a more complex h-card it gets confusing
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gRegor`
It's already confusing to me. :)
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tantek
so don't make it more complex!
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tantek
threre is no particular meaning to the combination
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gRegor`
I'm not trying to. I'm trying to understand why you're using rel=author
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tantek
rel acts on the a href
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tantek
because legacy
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tantek
some parsers only support rel-author + rel-me for determining authorship
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tantek
and not yet h-card
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tantek
so it's easy enough to put the rel-author on there for them
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tantek
already mentioned google spiders above
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tantek
so that's the why is it used
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gRegor`
Right, so non-indieweb parsers, it sounds like.
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tantek
pre-indieweb sure
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tantek
and the "not in other, more verbose, h-card instances" because complexity
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tantek
likely cause bad copy pasta
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gRegor`
So if we're using more complex h-cards, should we just not be concerned with the legacy parsers?
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gRegor`
Heh
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tantek
rather the cost of complexity is then IMO worse than the cost of ignoring legacy parsers
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tantek
tradeoffs
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gRegor`
Ok
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gRegor`
I get it better now. Thanks for the patience. :)
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tantek
I think that question belongs more on indiewebcamp.com/rel-author
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gRegor`
That's where I put it :)
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tantek
oh wait it is sorry I was confused
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gRegor`
It's contagious! (the confusing, haha)
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tantek
gah - time to put computer away and do something else
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tantek
gRegor`: if the answers I gave made sense - can you add them to the page? feel free to reword
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gRegor`
In my defense, I got home at 4:30am and have been hazy all day :)
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tantek
you seem fine by your words :)
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gRegor`
I will summarize and link to chat logs
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tantek
thank you!
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gregorlove.com
edited /rel-author (+527) "/* Questions */ answer"
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aaronpk
hello scrollback!
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Loqi
aaronpk: kylewm left you a message 1 hour, 27 minutes ago: am i right in reading php-comments that it assumes the author's h-card is embedded in the h-entry? i.e. 1 & 2 of http://indiewebcamp.com/authorship
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gregorlove.com
edited /rel-author (+160) "dfn, see also"
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aaronpk
kylewm: yes right now the php-comments library only looks inside the h-entry for the author info
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gregorlove.com
edited /rel-author (+17) "/* Questions */"
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aaronpk
part of the challenge of these mf2 libraries is not having them actually make the http request and not tying them to a particular http library
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aaronpk
because the library shouldn't assume it's safe to make an http request at the moment the function is called
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JonathanNeal
May there be multiple rel=“author” per page?
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KartikPrabhu
JonathanNeal: that would imply that the page has multiple authors...
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KartikPrabhu
I don't think anyone here has a multi-author site yet
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aaronpk
well known is a multi-author site
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KartikPrabhu
oh hmm yeah!
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aaronpk
interestingly, this post on stream.withknown.com is by benwerd, and it was POSSE'd to twitter from the @withknown account http://stream.withknown.com/2014/misuba-for-now-youll-need-to-connect-your-site-with
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KartikPrabhu
hmm that could get confusing
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aaronpk
multi-author is somethign twitter has struggled with for a while
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aaronpk
hmm! just noticed that foursquare also credits the app that created the checkin! https://www.flickr.com/photos/aaronpk/14554194812/
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KartikPrabhu
nice!... I should do that and save a field somehow
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KartikPrabhu
a lot of it would be quill :)
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gRegor`
Alright, pretty sure I got all the mf2 set up propertly on http://gregorlove.com/battlestaramandica/ and the perrmalink pages.
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gRegor`
Now to deal with the DNS
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kylewm
aaronpk: that was exactly my issue with it with mf2util
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kylewm
it's really nice that it runs quickly and has no dependencies
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aaronpk
yep. so implementing the part of /authorship that involves more http requests will probably involve some sort of callback method where you can go do the http request yourself or defer it for later or something
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aaronpk
kylewm: can you explain what your PR is trying to do? https://github.com/benwerd/indiereader/pull/1
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kylewm
aaronpk: sure, "in-reply-to" wasn't being included in the micropub request
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kylewm
so i just passed the data-url attribute down from the Reply button to the created save button
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kylewm
it looked to me like that was the intention
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aaronpk
oh gotcha,
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aaronpk
yep looks good thanks!
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kylewm
yay :)
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Loqi
does a happy dance!
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@jimgroom
@holden I wanna hear about your time at IndieWebCamp, and I was wondering if post I just published ignores publishing model of SFW
(twtr.io/o2kErMT0gb)
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JonathanNeal
Is there a webmention validator?
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aaronpk
indiewebify.me has some stuff I think?
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aaronpk
what are you trying to validate?
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JonathanNeal
I’m still trying to understand webmentions. I was told they don’t have to rely on microformats (and I have nothing against them) but I’m trying to understand what fields must be sent in a webmention and how those fields are communicated without microformats.
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KartikPrabhu
JonathanNeal: feel free to use: https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/test-note-totally-te for testing
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KartikPrabhu
additonally the only fields needed are "source" and "target"
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aaronpk
just separate the idea of the "mention" from rendering the mention
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aaronpk
in practice everything works way better when tehere's microformats on the source page
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JonathanNeal
yes, source is where the mention resides, target is the where the mention is directed, but the source must also contain something.
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KartikPrabhu
source must contain a <a> link to the target. so that the target can verify that it is indeed a mention
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aaronpk
terminology nitpick: the "mention" is just the HTTP request containing source and target URLs
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KartikPrabhu
that is the bare minimum for webmention to work
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KartikPrabhu
aaronpk: hmmm yeah.
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aaronpk
the source URL may be a comment marked up with microformats
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KartikPrabhu
I should say "that the target can verify that it is indeed linked"
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JonathanNeal
aaronpk: a mention is just the request and has nothing to do with whether the source or target exist? Or whether the source has certain content?
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aaronpk
JonathanNeal: so you are correct that without microformats, you don't have a lot to go on when rendering a comment
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aaronpk
JonathanNeal: yeah, you may receive a webmention request from an invalid URL for example
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aaronpk
or from a URL that returns 404
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JonathanNeal
you are using mention and webmention interchangably, right?
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JonathanNeal
whew, okay.
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JonathanNeal
So, a mention is the ping. What is done with the ping is something different? What is that called?
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aaronpk
hm, processing? handling?
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KartikPrabhu
handling incoming webmentions is what I have heard used
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JonathanNeal
So for all colloquial purposes, the handling is known as a (web)mention, and the formalized protocol for “processing” or “handling” is part of the (web)mention spec?
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gRegor`
or the source URL can return 410, if the content was removed. :)
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KartikPrabhu
JonathanNeal: the notification is called a "webmention" (similar to a pingback) and has a spec as to what parameters it needs. The handling is not really formalised I think.
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aaronparecki.com
created /podcast (+1135) "stub with notes from conversation with [[User:Anomalily.net]] about the inability to switch podcast hosting providers"
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KartikPrabhu
aaronpk: that is the display aspect. the handling of the actual webmention is here: http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention#Implementation_Notes
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aaronpk
oh thanks
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KartikPrabhu
JonathanNeal: note that the handling is an implementation left to the receiver and a common flow is documented at that link
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KartikPrabhu
one could use webmention in other ways (which has been done)
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gRegor`
Interestingly, the introduction on webmention.org, #4 says "...and then includes this information on her site."
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aaronpk
probably due to it being based off of pingback
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snarfed
JonathanNeal: re webmention validator, try https://checkmention.appspot.com/
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JonathanNeal
snarfed: awesome!
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KartikPrabhu
snarfed: wow! never knew of that. is it on /webmention?
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KartikPrabhu
or should it be?
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snarfed
probably. i'll add it
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snarfed
kbs wrote it
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snarfed
yup, it's already on /webmention
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JonathanNeal
Okay, time to start hacking on http://jonneal.com/ it will take a while just to get access. Thanks for all of your help so far.
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KartikPrabhu
snarfed: where?
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snarfed
JonathanNeal: gl!
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KartikPrabhu
should it not be in "How to Test webmentions" ?
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KartikPrabhu
snarfed: apologies... i was looking at /comment :P
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snarfed
KartikPrabhu: np!
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KartikPrabhu
judas priest! my note failed some XSS test and the "verification" test! https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/test-note-totally-te
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KartikPrabhu
I have some hacking to do
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KartikPrabhu
anyone know a way to do webmention author verification?
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tommorris
aaronpk: I post to my site via SMS
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orchard.roaming-initiative.com
edited /2014/Demos (+1351) "/* Phillip */ Provide a bit of clarification and expansion on my demo"
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kylewm
KartikPrabhu: when we've talked about author verification before, the obvious thing was to accept mentions that come from only {the author's domain OR bridgy}
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JonathanNeal
Do webmention replies support replies to replies?
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: how do you know the author's domain?
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KartikPrabhu
JonathanNeal: they could. depending on how you parse the "source" page for microformats
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kylewm
like, u-url of the post is the same domain as the source of the webmention
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: that would mess up bridgy wouldn't it?
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kylewm
that's why bridgy is an exception
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JonathanNeal
Gah, protocol-less URLs are still not allowed when specifying authentication provider.
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KartikPrabhu
JonathanNeal: one could parse the 'source' page for comments and then inlcude them as nested comments
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: hmmm me does not like this exception buisness
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: also what if the post does not have u-url?
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KartikPrabhu
i.e. no mf2 mark up
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kylewm
I think that's basically the same as having a u-url that points to the current page
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kylewm
(in that it can't redirect you to somewhere else)
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KartikPrabhu
hmm will have to play with that
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cweiske.de
edited /distributed-indieauth (+131) "/* Level 2: Choose your own authorization server */"
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cweiske.de
edited /authorization-endpoint (+464) "endpoint discovery"
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cweiske.de
edited /indieauth.com (+221) "move provider status to indieauth.com page"
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cweiske.de
edited /IndieAuth (-105) "move provider status to indieauth.com page"
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binbasti
!tell bnvk yes, that'd be great. i was traveling a lot during the last couple of days, but i should be more available again next week latest
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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@OnTheWebz
RT @t: Thanks @mrflix for figuring out CSS for an #indieweb People Focused Mobile Communication! Screenshot & source: http://tantek.com/2014/180/t2/css-indieweb-people-focused-communication
(twtr.io/o3LPsXwTE8)
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@dangillmor
For @Scobleizer the choices are among huge, centralized services. Too bad he's not encouraging @IndieWebCamp https://plus.google.com/+Scobleizer/posts/ZSJzgnvKaWy
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Loqi
Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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@shyduroff
RT @dangillmor: For @Scobleizer the choices are among huge, centralized services. Too bad he's not encouraging @IndieWebCamp https://t.co/…
(twtr.io/o3QxDqqJf0)
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@mathewi
RT @dangillmor: For @Scobleizer the choices are among huge, centralized services. Too bad he's not encouraging @IndieWebCamp https://t.co/…
(twtr.io/o3XZAzDiYG)
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petermolnar
!tell snarfed bridgy is acting strange ocasionally, for example this https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/facebook/728384706/10152507671499707/10152507671499707_10152507747144707 shows up with the content instead of the username as comment user on the receiver wordpress site ( see: http://hardergeneration.org/art/krakazyabra-art-by-maryana-kopylova/ )
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petermolnar
most of the webmentions are fine apart from a few
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi
snarfed: petermolnar left you a message 19 minutes ago: bridgy is acting strange ocasionally, for example this https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/facebook/728384706/10152507671499707/10152507671499707_10152507747144707 shows up with the content instead of the username as comment user on the receiver wordpress site ( see: http://hardergeneration.org/art/krakazyabra-art-by-maryana-kopylova/ )
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snarfed
petermolnar: you're right, i've seen that sometimes elsewhere too. sometimes it's because they don't have https://github.com/acegiak/Semantic-Linkbacks installed, but it looks like that site does have it...?
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petermolnar
it's a bug in the plugin then, right, I'll try to dig deeper
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snarfed
thanks! let me know if i can help
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petermolnar
!tell pfefferle !tell acegiak it's definately a bug in the plugin:
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petermolnar
one shows up correctly, the other does not on the wordpress side
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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petermolnar
eh, and I paste the same url
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petermolnar
no, I didn't
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petermolnar
needs a break
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pfefferle
petermolnar do you use the indieweb plugin or the individual plugins?
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Loqi
pfefferle: petermolnar left you a message 3 minutes ago: !tell acegiak it's definately a bug in the plugin:
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petermolnar
the indieweb plugin
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petermolnar
should I switch to the git mainline? :)
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pfefferle
ok, the plugin is way behind… need to update it! thanks for the reminder!
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@MarcDrummond
I’m working to get my site to the place where I can do this. It’s challenging. RT @adactio: Welcome, @ChristyDena. http://www.christydena.com/2014/07/i-am-a-citizen-of-the-indieweb-d/
(twtr.io/o3iJj5a4Y0)
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@scottros
@t @kevinmarks is there any post or document listing/summarizing the #indiewebcamp demos/projects from NY side? Wld love to link. Thx
(twtr.io/o3m49PFYkt)
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GWG
pfefferle, can a plugin install other plugins? I have never looked.
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pfefferle
sadly not…
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pfefferle
the indieweb one includes all the single plugins and require it
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pfefferle
it would be much better to have for example dependencies or something like that
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pfefferle
so the indieweb plugin would automatically install all the required plugins
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GWG
I wonder if there is middle ground
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@bear
@scottros All the NYC demos were posted into IRC as they happened - there is a link at the top of http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/Demos cc @kevinmarks @t
(twtr.io/o3mP5Z1XE8)
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aaronpk
tommorris: ooh cool! you should add "via SMS" on those posts :)
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GWG
pfefferle what about a guided install? That is what Jeremy Zilar was working on?
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tantek
yeah we need to expand the IRC log of NYC demos into actual sections/paragraphs of descriptions with links on the wiki
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pfefferle
That was my first thought… and it would be much simpler...
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pfefferle
perhaps I will switch to that again
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tantek
I just found it fastest to quickly type stuff into IRC while the demos were happening
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GWG
Gives more control.
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tantek
pfefferle! great to see you on video during IWC 2014 :D
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pfefferle
tantek :D
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GWG
pfefferle, I do have a plugin question while I have you.
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GWG
The via links in the semantic plugin.. what if I wanted to change their appearance or placement?
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pfefferle
tantek yeah, was nice to see you guys too!
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pfefferle
GWG hmmm that is a good question!
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GWG
I was thinking about it and trying to come up with a suggestion.
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pfefferle
with remove_filter you can remove it
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pfefferle
and then you will be able to add your custom one
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pfefferle
the same way I added it
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GWG
I had this idea about displaying the via in the comment meta
caseorganic joined the channel
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pfefferle
GWG yes, sure. simply run remove_filter('comment_text', array( 'SemanticLinkbacksPlugin', 'comment_text_add_cite'), 11, 3)
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pfefferle
and than add it to wherever you want
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pfefferle
GWG like add_filter('entry_meta', array( 'SemanticLinkbacksPlugin', 'comment_text_add_cite'), 11, 3)
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GWG
I don't like to disable functionality without thinking if it is the best way
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pfefferle
you can check if the filter or action is available first
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GWG
Yes
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pfefferle
GWG does that answer your question?
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GWG
Puts it in perspective, yes
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GWG
But my mind just jumped to theme design thoughts again. I have another idea for a change.
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pfefferle
let us hear!
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tommorris
aaronpk: I do.
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GWG
Common practice is to use content-(format) for the different formats. I think I could switch to just having template parts for the differing headers and footers and a single content file to stitch them together.
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GWG
I keep trying to simplify the code
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kylewm
tommorris: that's awesome
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kylewm
does it go through email? SMS -> email -> post?
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pfefferle
GWG I am not sure if it simplyfies the code… because you have even more files in the end… if we assume that every file has a different header AND footer…
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tommorris
kylewm: nope, it goes SMS -> HTTP POST webhook -> post.
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pfefferle
GWG from a DRY perspective sure…
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GWG
Not really. Because in the absence of a specific file it falls back to generic.
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GWG
And most post formats except standard use the untitled style.
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tommorris
kylewm: Twilio can be set up to send you HTTP POST containing a blob of XML containing the content of an SMS. You can reply in the response body of the XML
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tommorris
kylewm: when I text my blog post number, I get a response back containing the URL of the post.
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pfefferle
GWG that depends on the taste of the designer/coder
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GWG
So in reality, three cases.
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kylewm
tommorris: that's really cool, i had no idea
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tommorris
encourages people to play with Twilio - it’s pretty neat
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tantek
looks for /Twilio
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GWG
But just as many as content-(format)
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tommorris
Especially if you can find someone who works for Twilio - they’ll often be able to give you $25 worth of credit if you are hacking on something
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rascul
twilio keeps emailing me they want to support me!
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tantek.com
created /twilio (+20) "r"
(view diff)
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GWG
Will play with the idea more.
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tantek
tommorris - now that's worth capturing on /Twilio - please stub with that!
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tantek
and while you're at it, perhaps /sms too?
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tantek
since you've actually implemented it :)
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tommorris
so, the grand plan which I haven’t had time to do is to do Dodgeball style checkins via Twilio.
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pfefferle
GWG sure, I am curious how it will perform...
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bret
tantek re: the reader subscription list stuff from yesterday. I understand your idea much better now and am totally onboard with the idea of using h-cards instead of the old style import/export patterns
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tommorris
I actually had reason to use Twilio recently - I went to France and had no roaming on my iPhone. I wanted to post something to my site, so I could actually post it from my £10 Nokia 1000 phone while roaming in France.
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bret
an outline model is not necessary here. tagging/category is much more flexible
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bret
we are people, not data feeds ;)
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tommorris.org
uploaded /File:tommorris_sms_interface.png "Example of sending SMSes to tommorris.org"
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tantek
bret - yes there was always an impedance mismatch between outlines and user-centric methods of grouping people etc.
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tommorris.org
created /Twilio (+1229) "expanding"
(view diff)
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tommorris
tantek: there you go. ;)
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tommorris.org
edited /Twilio (+6) "screenshot doesn't need to be quite so large"
(view diff)
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tommorris
will upload mine later
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aaronpk
tommorris: OH awesome!!
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tommorris
As a posting interface goes, it’s fairly minimal but widely implemented.
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tommorris
I’ve made 29 posts via SMS, incidentally.
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tommorris
Or so the Twilio history functionality tells me.
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tantek
tommorris - do your posts say when they're made via SMS?
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tommorris
tantek: yep.
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tommorris
I should probably mention that
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Loqi
I agree
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tommorris.org
edited /Twilio (+183) ""via sms" example"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /create (+450) "add Ferocity / tommorris create interface"
(view diff)
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tommorris
thanks tantek
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tommorris
that screenshot needs updating at some point. as does my posting interface. ;)
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erinjorichey.com
edited /site-deaths (+351) "/* Upcoming */"
(view diff)
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tantek
woot!
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Loqi
does a happy dance!
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aaronpk
just to mention it again, I can't host in PDX tonight
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bret.io
edited /Events (+9) "Moved primary 2014 indiewebcamp event to past events"
(view diff)
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tantek
dietrich? can you host at #mozpdx?
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tantek
any other backup Portland hosts for tonight? Bret?
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bret
im a bit burnt out to host another tonight with os bridge all last week, indiewebcamp during the weekend and then code for portland org meetings this week
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tantek
bret - aww - understand
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tantek
bret - though I'll point out that even Minneapolis is pulling together a 2nd HWC meetup tonight!
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bret
virtual hack sessions in the evening this weekend though!
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bret
yeah! Minneapolis++
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aaronpk
alternate plan is pick a bar and just meet there
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tantek
aaronpk - makes sense!
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bret
lol esri pdx is such an active tech community space
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aaronpk
:) we try
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tommorris
if only there were a way to put audio on the web. some kind of tag you could use to include an audio player, perhaps.
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tantek
aaronpk, perhaps a good addition to /Soundcloud ?
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@casebot
Amber Case was blogged about in: #indiewebcamp | Hapgood: Not only does it focus on building stuff over talkin... http://hapgood.us/2014/07/02/indiewebcamp/
(twtr.io/o3uMyJ5WNw)
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JonathanNeal
Now, if there were an indieweb music project, that I could definitely use.
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aaronpk
tantek: what's the normal header for things like that? Issues?
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@holden
Because @jimgroom asked me too -- a report on #indiewebcamp http://hapgood.us/2014/07/02/indiewebcamp/
(twtr.io/o3uaAFjKcc)
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tantek
aaronpk - issues are things that are resolvable
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tantek
things like that where there is outright misbehavior - "Criticism"
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@Scobleizer
@dangillmor I love @indiewebcamp but the idea that it will compete with any of the social networks is just laughable.
(twtr.io/o3udiittdA)
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tantek
hahahaha scobleizer - you're laughable ;)
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aaronpk
hahaha
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aaronpk
i'm gonna send him a 'yo'
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aaronpk
benwerd you should too
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tantek
let's bombard scobleizer with POSSE replies with permalinks back to our originals on our own sites
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tantek
any of you implement POSSE to Yo yet?
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tantek
is not even sure what that means.
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aaronpk
...i can *manually* posse to yo...
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benwerd
I actually was going to ... and then realized I had other things to write
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aaronpk
not sure that has the same effect
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@agoracollective
@brennannovak thanks for sharing and aggregating at #IndieWebCamp in our space! (-ms)
(twtr.io/o3un21by1b)
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benwerd
There is a Yo API
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tantek
thinks it might involve sniffing the http traffic from the Yo app to the Yo servers
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aaronpk
...the yo blog is hosted on medium
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bret
tantek: isnt the point that we dont have to compete?
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tantek
bret - for now, yes.
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tantek
step 1: use the silos for distribution to grow the indieweb
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tantek
step 2: make peer-to-peer indieweb interactions *better* than silo based plumbing/UI
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tantek
step 3: braindrain leaders from silos to the indieweb
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tantek
step 4: generations make the transition
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tantek
step 5: press etc. notices silo traffic is flatlining - cool kids are fleeing
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bret
other than trolling positive projects and communities, what does scobleizer do?
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tantek
step 6: silos implode (see previous site-deaths, Orkut, MySpace, Friendster, etc.)
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tantek
bret - every community has a court jester or two ;)
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aaronpk
"Some example use cases: A blog can Yo the readers whenever a new post is published. Imagine getting a Yo From PRODUCTHUNT."
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tantek.com
created /Yo (+103) "stub"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
created /yo (+16) "r"
(view diff)
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tantek
aaronpk - please add URL and that API quote to /Yo
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tantek
what is yo?
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Loqi
Yo is an app for sending your contacts the text "Yo" http://indiewebcamp.com/Yo
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@benwerd
@Scobleizer I love the World Wide Web but the idea that it will compete with America OnLine is just laughable :) @dangillmor @indiewebcamp
(twtr.io/o3vfqbbtFj)
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aaronpk
benwerd++
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Loqi
benwerd has 28 karma
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tantek
nicely done benwerd
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aaronparecki.com
edited /SoundCloud (+305) "add link to article"
(view diff)
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benwerd
indieweb event w/ fb posse is up for homebrew btw
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tantek
yay!!!
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@ShaneHudson
"Maybe a long overdue re-flowering of blogs and independent websites is imminent." @zeldman Oh I do hope so http://www.zeldman.com/2014/07/02/netdiver-returns/ #indieweb
(twtr.io/o3wLwtaADL)
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@timmmmyboy
Great post by @holden on #indiewebcamp and the pragmatic voice of that movement right now. http://hapgood.us/2014/07/02/indiewebcamp/
(twtr.io/o3wau5zMTU)
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gRegor`
benwerd++
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Loqi
benwerd has 29 karma
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tantek
" it is far from the “And once they see the power of my code, the people will rise up” bullcrap that typically dominates this set of conversations. " - love it!
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aaronpk
that's a really good post
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aaronpk
"People here weren’t allergic to making money, but they weren’t high off their own pitches either."
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tantek
!tell binbasti FYI I got the Moz App Manifest docs to link to the W3C Manifest for Web Apps spec. Making some progress.
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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gRegor`
Scoble on Facebook, "Filtered feed. Truth is this is a mixed bag. For me it's a HUGE deal because I have put thousands of hours into tuning my feed . . . " https://plus.google.com/+Scobleizer/posts/ZSJzgnvKaWy
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tantek
"Every presentation I saw focused *heavily* on user experience, whether it was on IndieBox, or Known, or IndieAuth." - well done IndieWebCamp Portland!
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gRegor`
Imagine if he'd spent, say, 1/10th of that time on his own site.
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gRegor`
Someday when Facebook screws him over, he'll have lost thousands of hours.
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tantek
gRegor`: perhaps start a "Apologists" section on /Facebook and cite that Scoble commentary?
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tantek
(and the irony of it being posted on Google+)
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gRegor`
It's on FB too apparently
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aaronpk
there is no password reset functionality in Yo apparentyl
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gRegor`
Man, I'm loving this new Teahouse theme on the wiki.
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tantek
aaronpk - is there a place on /2014 where we're collecting blog posts about IWC 2014? like that one from holden?
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gRegor`
Going to submit some small tweaks, but overall it's great.
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aaronpk
ooh good call. isn't there a stub section already?
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tantek
or even blog posts just before/during?
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aaronpk
oh i'm thinking of the HWC event page stubs
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gRegor`
I didn't see a blog section on /2014 when I wrote a post beforehand.
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aaronpk
it's just empty
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gRegor`
Ah, cool
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aaronparecki.com
edited /2014 (+139) "/* Blog */ add 2 blog posts about 2014"
(view diff)
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gregorlove.com
edited /2014 (+82) "/* Blog */ my pre-event post"
(view diff)
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gregorlove.com
edited /Facebook (+19) "/* Articles */ + Apologists section"
(view diff)
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gregorlove.com
edited /Facebook (+571) "/* Apologists */ Robert Scoble commentary"
(view diff)
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aaronpk
i'm not sure I like calling him an apologist
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aaronpk
i'd rather frame that positively
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tantek
making excuses for FB is apologism
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donpdonp
consider 'apologist' an insulting, inflamatory term
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tantek
what is an apologist?
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aaronpk
you know how we often can gain insight from observing features of silos
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gRegor`
I can see it being inflammatory, yeah
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gRegor`
Apologia? Heh
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aaronpk
this is basically scoble sharing what he likes about facebook, and what it will take to find a system to replace it
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aaronpk
i don't see anything wrong with that
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gRegor`
is fine with another term. Just used the suggested heading
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tantek
aaronpk - ok - how about "Advocates" instead then?
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aaronpk
better :)
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aaronpk
at least that's not a negative term
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gregorlove.com
edited /Facebook (-1) "/* Apologists */ => Advocates"
(view diff)
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tantek
if his post is framed positively then it's advocacy
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tantek
rather than apologism (which is making excuses)
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aaronpk
i'd still rather just cite all the things he mentioned as benefits of facebook as part of the UX research we are doing
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tantek
both are possible. better to be accurate
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aaronpk
but this is better for now :)
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tantek
yes - to citing UX advantages in every silo
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tantek
that makes a good challenge / todo list
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aaronpk
exactly
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aaronpk
and then is easy to demonstrate when someone here does something with better UX on their own site
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gRegor`
I was just surprised by the face he's put thousands of hours into it.
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peat
I'm raising the flag to mention that I'm digging into the Teahouse theme today. Fixing links, a few styles, merging in some work that was done a couple of days ago (skinny, aaronpk, myself).
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gRegor`
Perhaps a bit of hyperbole, though
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aaronpk
peat: yay!
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Loqi
yay!
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gRegor`
peat: Nice!
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donpdonp
gRegor`: i was trying to figure that out too. i assume he meant hours of adding and muting the people that contribute to what he wants to read about.
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gRegor`
peat: I was going to suggest setting the <p> margin to be top and bottom instead of just bottom. Spaces it out better from some other text with no margins, like the "See [[Main Article]]" links.
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peat
This includes the original logo assets (AI files) and such. :)
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tantek.com
edited /2014 (+158) "/* Blog */ date, author, cite"
(view diff)
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peat
gRegor`: Right on. I'm totally open to playing around with it. :)
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gRegor`
peat++
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Loqi
peat has 40 karma
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gRegor`
All: try out the new wiki theme in progress http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/redesign
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aaronpk
haha it was a hack cause the #mediawiki people didn't have any idea why user stylesheets weren't working
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peat
I love the local CSS hack.
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gRegor`
peat: Is there already a wiki page with all the different wiki components to test against? Like all headings, paragraphs, <code>, <pre>, etc?
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peat
gRegor`: No, not yet. A lot of the stuff I'm stumbling over has to do with wiki controls (eg: tabbed navigation) and fun with microformat markup and nesting.
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peat
gRegor`: It's all been pretty easy to fix, though.
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gRegor`
Cool
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aaronpk
peat: depolyed!
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aaronpk
feel free to document all those on /wiki/redesign or in github issues
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tantek
wait what is deployed?
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aaronpk
peat's PR
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peat
aaronpk: I don't have a test environment set up on my laptop, so .. uhh. yeah. those are all changes from the other day, so I think they should work. Haha.
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tantek
How do I see it? I'm refreshing indiewebcamp.com and don't see it!
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peat
tantek: Check out the "Teahouse" theme in Appearances, in your perferences.
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peat
s/perferences/preferences
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Loqi
peat meant to say: tantek: Check out the "Teahouse" theme in Appearances, in your preferences.
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@Enderle
@benwerd @Scobleizer @dangillmor @indiewebcamp and what they really need to worry abuot is MSN. That'll kill everything!
(twtr.io/o407TR9HiU)
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peat
That too.
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aaronparecki.com
edited /wiki/redesign (+52) "add headers"
(view diff)
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kylewm
tantek: when you were talking about having a reading on your own site (our own sites), are you thinking my main view when I log into my site would be a stream of my friends, a la social media?
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kylewm
reader*
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tantek
kylewm - a la original Twitter
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gRegor`
misses old school Twitter
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kylewm
I wasn't on twitter then
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kylewm
how was it better?
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kylewm
I might be in the minority of thinking their UI improvements have generally been good
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tantek
kylewm, some good, others, nothing but distractions designed to increase traffic, visits, clicks etc. all that usual free-service-keep-you-looking-at-ads crap.
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gRegor`
kylewm: I just miss some of the simplicity. Multiple clicks to get from my stream to someone's profile now
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gRegor`
another click to see "Tweets and Replies" instead of just whatever selection Twitter chooses on their profile
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gRegor`
the old-old ability to choose whether to see others' conversations even if you only followed one half of it.
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gRegor`
In the early days, half of how I found new interesting people to follow was catching half a conversation and checking out who the other person was.
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gRegor`
It used to be a feature you could select to see only conversations where you followed both parties, or "all" at-replies.
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kylewm
I remember that
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cweiske
that's not defined anywhere in the wiki
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kylewm
I love the work they've done to try to show conversations together
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kylewm
they were so hard to follow before
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gRegor`
Agreed, those are great
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gRegor`
And definitely informing several indieweb UIs
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kylewm
even if it is weird that things suddenly appear in chronological order
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bret
cweiske its a wiki, add it!
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cweiske
bret, the indieauth protocol is so underdefined that I don't know if it really should be in there or not
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cweiske.de
edited /authorization-endpoint (+182) "/* Creating an Authorization Endpoint */ talk about header"
(view diff)
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kevinmarks.com
created /Template:kevinmarks (+109) "Created page with "<span class="h-card">{{sparkline|http://www.kevinmarks.com/km.jpg}}[[User:Kevinmarks.com|Kevin Marks" target="_blank">User:Kevinmarks.com|Kevin" target="_blank">http://www.kevinmarks.com/km.jpg}}[[User:Kevinmarks.com|Kevin Marks]]</span>""
(view diff)
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@npm_tweets
webmention-testpinger 0.3.3 https://www.npmjs.org/package/webmention-testpinger A tool to ping your site with a variety of webmention markup
(twtr.io/o43h1aXVvC)
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bret
cweiske I dont know either :/
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cweiske
ok, I've added the header to indieauth-openid
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@schnarfed
@jasongreen great! just install http://t.co/EVVSu5Zq55. or if you’re adventurous, http://indiewebcamp.com/WordPress#webmention has more advanced…
(twtr.io/o44rdS7j4H)
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kylewm.com
edited /Twitter (+506) "/* Early User Interface */ added gRegor's reminscings about early UI"
(view diff)
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kylewm.com
edited /Twitter (-82) "/* Features */ removed duplicate link, oops"
(view diff)
pbeaulieu, benwerd and wolftune joined the channel
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@schnarfed
@jasongreen (that’s for likes and comments. if you want to publish, try SemPress or uf2: http://indiewebcamp.com/WordPress#microformats)
(twtr.io/o45P_999UY)
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aaronpk
cweiske: oh good call, i think that's cause it was all in progress on my test implementation of indieauth.com and aaronparecki.com
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cweiske
aaronpk, I hope that indieauth automatically redirects me to my auth endpoint when there is only that one on my homepage
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aaronpk
that's kind of a tough call
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aaronpk
if you specify exactly one authorization_endpoint and no other providers (github, sms, email, pgp, etc) then yes that probably makes sense
#
aaronpk
however, what happens if you change your authorization endpoint?
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aaronpk
if indieauth.com has to make an http request every time to your site, it ends up feeling slow and you get annoyed
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aaronpk
that's why I made it cache the list of providers and require clicking "re-scan" in order to find any changes from your site
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cweiske
when logging in via openid, I don't even get a login prompt since my openid server stores the login cookie for a week
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cweiske
with indieauth.com I would have to select my provider
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aaronpk
I would be more inclined to do something like that
#
aaronpk
where indieauth.com would store a cookie and skip even validating with any provider
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aaronpk
but it would have to be based on the combination of client_id, redirect_uri and scope, so that if a new app wants to authorize you it would prompt you still
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aaronpk
also keep in mind that this is an optimization being done at the indieauth client level, so every indieauth client may behave slightly differently for you
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aaronpk
e.g. https://quill.p3k.io doesn't use indieauth.com, it implements an indieauth client directly so it behaves quite differently
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aaronpk
so while these are good suggestions, the end result is that will solidify indieauth.com as the best implementation of an indieauth client, causing more people to use it, making it look more and more like a silo
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cweiske
you can provide a clean indieauth protocol specification to help preventing that
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aaronpk
yes, but it's still a ton of work to build one
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aaronpk
especially getting the UX parts right
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peat
aaronpk: did you write up anything about the GnuPG auth feature? Blog style, that I can point people at?
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KartikPrabhu
JonathanNeal: re: indie music iirc chloeweil was doing something with music-data on IWC-East
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aaronpk
peat: i should do that
#
aaronpk
I did that for TOTP, so I should have one for this
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peat
aaronpk: I'm unreasonably excited about it. Sig verification is an awesome idea.
#
@aardrian
RT @ShaneHudson "overdue re-flowering of blogs and independent websites is imminent." @zeldman I do hope so http://www.zeldman.com/2014/07/02/netdiver-returns/ #indieweb
(twtr.io/o47C9RS7W8)
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aaronpk
the feedback i'm hearing from GPG people is they all assume i'm doing something with key servers and checking the contents of the key and such... it's really much simpler than that and I hope that's ok
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rascul
why would you check the contents of the key?
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aaronpk
i don't know
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aaronpk
someone asked if i was verifying the key had a matching email address
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michielbdejong
keyservers are a double check, as far as i understand. If someone gets access to my webserver, they can publish a new public key there
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michielbdejong
but then my real public key would still be tracked by keyservers
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gRegor`
Yeah, I think MITM is a slight concern if the key isn't available over https
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cweiske
I'd have expected that I only have to put the key hash on my homepage
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michielbdejong
as long as nobody takes control over my webserver, the keyserver can be left out of the equation
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michielbdejong
assuming I serve my website over https, yes
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aaronpk
how would I know what key servers to trust?
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michielbdejong
they're linked
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michielbdejong
they update each other
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aaronpk
i assume you need the private key in order to make changes to your key in the keyserver network?
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rascul
taking over my web server isn't going to matter, my private key is not there
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michielbdejong
you would need a revoke key to change it
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michielbdejong
you can add a competing key though, i think
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rascul
one that would match my public key?
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cweiske
same email address
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rascul
sure, but it wouldn't work for signature verification
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michielbdejong
rascul: if i get control of your webserver, then i can publish a new public key which i generated, and to which i (not you) have the private key
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rascul
michielbdejong oh now i see what you're saying
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michielbdejong
so that's what keyservers are for
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rascul
well my public key is on keybase so that could be useful
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aaronpk
these keyservers are basically a federation, yea?
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michielbdejong
also, if https is compromised, the information on keyservers would still be trustable
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michielbdejong
s/if/because :)
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Loqi
michielbdejong meant to say: also, because :) https is compromised, the information on keyservers would still be trustable
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JonathanNeal
KartikPrabhu: awesome
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gRegor`
michielbdejong: I thought some of these keyservers themselves weren't even https, though
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michielbdejong
aaronpk: yeah, that's how i understand it. this is where someone explained it to me https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/unhosted/b1irZwo4HC4/UOszCJYzbSQJ
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aaronpk
interesting
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michielbdejong
gRegor`: oh, that would be weird. don't know about that, though.
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aaronpk
"This is why PGP keyservers are networked for synchrony. If one has it, they all have it. Publishing one's fingerprint far and wide (say, in the .signature appended to one's e-mails) makes it more difficult to substitute a public key with a fake."
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kylewm
JonathanNeal: if you havent seen http://chloeweil.com/summer/ it is pretty incredible
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aaronpk
so basically what i'm hearing is this:
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gRegor`
michielbdejong: e.g. http://pgp.mit.edu/, though looks like https is available there too
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aaronpk
if someone has access to your web server, they can sign in as you. whether that's by swapping out your public key, changing the link to a github profile or email address, etc
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aaronpk
GPG has a mechanism to protect this, a way to distribute keys all over so that you have more places to verify them
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aaronpk
none of the other methods do
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aaronpk
so me implementing more of the GPG stuff has little benefit for indieauth.com because there is still the potential to attack via other methods
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gRegor`
I think so. With the important caveat that if your key is available over http, they don't have to compromise your server to impersonate you, just MITM your site. I'd be concerned about someone new to indieweb / crypto putting a GPG key on their non-secure site.
#
rascul
aaronpk well it's still another mechanism that doesn't rely on a third party service
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kylewm
gRegor`: that's true of all the indieauth methods right?
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michielbdejong
aaronpk: good point
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cweiske
aaronpk, even if you use the website to lookup the key via its hash, the attacker can still change the hash on the website
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gRegor`
I think it's beneficial. If someone can compromise your site, they could just as easily update your rel-me links
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gRegor`
kylewm: Also good point. :)
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cweiske
what you needed is inputting the email address
#
cweiske
because that would not need any homepage that can be compromised
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gRegor`
Hm
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cweiske
which is diametral to indiewebcamp that wants the homepage for everything
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aaronpk
what would make sense is adding stuff like "it looks like you're tryign to use a new provider, we'll need an extra check before you can continue"
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gRegor`
TLS all the things
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rascul
yes spdy, hsts, fs, sni and all that good stuff
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aaronpk
or "last time you signed in as github.com/aaronpk, you'll need to re-verify your domain in order to change to signing in as github.com/attacker"
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rascul
acronyms are fun
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aaronpk
or instead of "re-verify" it's requiring a second factor
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cweiske
aaronpk, doesn't work. because the attacker changes all second factors on the website
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aaronpk
but if you've signed in on indieauth.com before, it would use the last trusted info
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cweiske
which means you have to keep two versions
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cweiske
the current re-scanned one and the old "trusted" one
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cweiske
it gets more complicated with every thought
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aaronpk
anyway I think I'm sufficiently convinced that there's no need for me to bother with gpg keyservers
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aaronpk
and at the point where I am worried about preventing the attack where someone takes over the website, I will continue to think about it further
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gRegor`
yeah, I think it adds a lot of complexity for not much value
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aaronpk
for now, it is a known quantity that gaining access to the web server will allow the attacker to impersonate the site owner
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aaronpk
of course signing in is not the only attack someone could do. they could update past posts and re-send webmentions to change the contents on the target sites, fake new posts, etc etc
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tantek
aaronpk - exactly. as soon as someone has control of someone's server i.e. through their web host control panel etc. that's a much worse compromise than indieauth
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bear
in the realm of GPG web of trust - you *must* not trust a public key (hashed or otherwise) unless you trust the people who have signed the key and you verify that by pulling down from a key server the full key
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JonathanNeal
Would someone help me understand why indiewebcamp might require I re-authenticate after a relatively short period of inactivity? Am I perceiving things incorrectly? Or is there a great rhyme or reason to this?
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aaronpk
it's cause i can't find the mediawiki setting for it
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aaronpk
if you go to your user preferences there's a "keep me signed in" checkbox and you'll never have to sign in again
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KartikPrabhu
aaronpk: oh! so you either log in everytime or stay logged in forever!
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aaronpk
6 months i think actually
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KartikPrabhu
maybe the wiki should be upgraded to newer media-wiki ?
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aaronpk
yeah that's a thing
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aaronpk
tons of plugins to verify though
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KartikPrabhu
says this with no idea of how hard it might be
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aaronpk
wonders if he should also attempt to upgrade the microformats wiki at the same time
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JonathanNeal
Would there be a secure way to login without authenticating off site? Like, could my site contain its own session token that tells you I am indeed who I say I am?
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aaronpk
JonathanNeal: that's basically the gpg auth
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gRegor`
ben_thatmustbeme was working on upgrading the mediawiki version, I believe?
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cweiske
JonathanNeal, my indieauth-openid auth provider does this
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cweiske
or rather the openid server behind
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cweiske
I login once
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JonathanNeal
That seems promising then. I would much prefer to put my own site’s login behind lock and key, and let every other site be password free without even selecting an additional authentication method.
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JonathanNeal
cweiske: brilliant
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cweiske
and whenever I have to re-authenticate, it simply uses the cookie stored in my browser
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cweiske
never asking me for anything
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cweiske
JonathanNeal, I also like to have the auth on my side and don't like selecting auth methods
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cweiske
which is why I wrote my own indieauth implementation :)
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kylewm
cweiske: when you log into the wiki it will still send you to indieauth.com and give you the option to authenticate with your own authorization_endpoint provider?
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tantek
cweiske++ for writing his own indieauth implementation
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Loqi
cweiske has 9 karma
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cweiske
kylewm, the wiki does not support it yet
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cweiske
"coming soon"
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kylewm
cweiske: I mean, that is the intention?
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kylewm
I am not understanding why it goes through indieauth.com in that case, and doesn't use your provider directly?
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cweiske
it would be of course better if the mediawiki plugin would do the authorization_endpoint discovery itself
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kylewm
oh :)
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cweiske
instead of relying on indieauth.com for that
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cweiske
kylewm, aaronpk does not want to implement that
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kylewm
cweiske: i respect that :) was more wondering if there was a fundamental reason it couldn't work that way
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cweiske
it does already work that way for some software:
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aaronpk
indiewebcamp.com is using indieauth.com to handle auth. ownyourgram.com is doing indieauth directly.
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aaronpk
i don't want to write that much mediawiki code, so that's why i'm letting the wiki rely on indieauth.com
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aaronpk
this is kind of confusing because of the double role that indieauth.com can play
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cweiske
indieauth.com for indieauth is like janrain for openid
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aaronpk
ha yeah
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cweiske
"hey, don't implement the open protocol but our protocol that talks the open protocol in the background" :)
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aaronpk
except in this case it's the same protocol *gasp*
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cweiske
:) yep
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aaronpk
which is also confusing
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aaronpk
but cool
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cweiske
a subset
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JonathanNeal
The IndieAuth homepage design is rather ominous.
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aaronpk
hahaha
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aaronpk
suggestions welcome
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JonathanNeal
aaronpk: https://indieauth.com/img/web-signin-splash.jpg I think it was triggered by this vignette / gradient.
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aaronpk
gotta run
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dreeves
ooh, speaking of which, can we get beeminder added to the bottom of indieauth.com?
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JonathanNeal
Hmm, I’ll think of some suggestions :)
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aaronpk
dreeves: ooh yes!
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kylewm
um.. Loqi you ok?
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dreeves
aaronpk: we can do a pull request on https://github.com/aaronpk/IndieAuth
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tantek
!tell aaronpk yes on upgrading microformats wiki at the same time. Will also have some plugin compatibility testing to do.
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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KartikPrabhu
wait! what the hell is Loqi doing?
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aaronpk
That'd be great!
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Loqi
aaronpk: tantek left you a message 32 seconds ago: yes on upgrading microformats wiki at the same time. Will also have some plugin compatibility testing to do.
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cweiske
seems I found a way to send webmention spam without getting caught as duplicates :)
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cweiske
now the 1..10000 loop
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cweiske
webmention.io could verify if there is really an element with id=1
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cweiske
which isn't
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cweiske
but currently it's accepting all anchors without checking them
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kylewm
hmm interesting. the same thing would happen if you sent those webmentions to my site
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kylewm
well not those speifically
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cweiske
since irc is logged, I get new links
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cweiske
that link from the page to the same page
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kylewm
i just mean i'd be vulnerable to #[0-10000] too
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cweiske
well, yes it could happen
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dreeves
aaronpk: pull requested
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tantek
cweiske - yes, webmention is quite vulnerable to being spammed, in pretty much everybody's implementation.
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tantek
cweiske, if you're up for doing spam testing, please start gently. 1-3 maybe rather than 1-10k. And preferably with someone who has explicitly opted in as a spam-test-target. :)
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shepazu
JonathanNeal, if there isn't, I could make one in about 5-10 minutes
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tantek
haha "SVG" as hot-keyword for summoning shepazu ;)
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shepazu
tantek, guilty :)
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Loqi
SVG has 1 karma
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JonathanNeal
let me spend 2-3 minutes first, and I’ll ping you if my efforts are not perfect.
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shepazu
JonathanNeal, sounds good
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tantek
shepazu - is there a service for making "comicbook" versions of avatars (i.e. upload JPG/PNG) in SVG?
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shepazu
tantek, don't know of one, but I'd love it
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shepazu
tantek, it's actually not trivial to convert a PNG to an efficient SVG
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shepazu
there are apps, but it's not terrible smooty
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tantek
shepazu I figured of all people you would know. Plus it would be fun way to promote SVG adoption (since people like cartoony-avatars of themselves)
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shepazu
smooth
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shepazu
tantek, well, I'm often out of the loop
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kylewm
JonathanNeal: I'm pretty sure there is one somewhere
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shepazu
but it is a good idea
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tantek
shepazu - but you're good at discovery of such things. :)
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shepazu
tantek, currently working on an icon for "annotation" for my annotation architecture diagram
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shepazu
:)
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JonathanNeal
shepazu: Mine was not perfect when I used tracing in illustrator. Go for it.
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shepazu
JonathanNeal, gimme 10 minutes
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JonathanNeal
awesome, 160x200 artboard, 42px inner gap for the i.
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KartikPrabhu
relative units plz :P
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shepazu
KartikPrabhu, why relative units?
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KartikPrabhu
hmm I just think they are nicer...
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tantek
shepazu - nice, perhaps the indieweb annotation implementation efforts can use your icon - if it has a liberal enough license ;)
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KartikPrabhu
shepazu: I think it doesn't matter in SVG
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JonathanNeal
Correction, base appears to be 60, 40, 60. KartikPrabhu, you can use px measurements and they’re still relative.
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shepazu
tantek, all my stuff is CC-BY or CC-0… in this case, since I didn't draw it, CC-0
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shepazu
JonathanNeal, nope, there's a difference
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tantek
shepazu++ for using CC-BY or CC0
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Loqi
shepazu has 1 karma
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shepazu
but now I'm going to work on it… brb!
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KartikPrabhu
shepazu: would like to see an "annotations" icon. have been using just the comment on for now
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JonathanNeal
shepazu: uh, isn’t the only difference the granularity of the math behind the shapes?
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KartikPrabhu
shepazu JonathanNeal: yeah I'd like to know about this px thingie too
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JonathanNeal
the dot of the i and hole of the a appears to be 50 in diameter.
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: I had another suggestion for the "comment" icon that you're using inline at the ends of paragraphs with marginalia
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: shoot
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tantek
what if you also put a mini inline facepile of the avatars of those who had left marginalia on that paragraph, immediately after/inline with the comment icon.?
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tantek
so just by scrolling, you could see the faces of those who added marginalia on each paragraph - no need to show/hide or anything
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tantek
that way if someone in particular that you like to read said something, you would know to open it up
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tantek
or say, if *a lot* of people left marginalia on a paticular paragraph
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tantek
s/paticular/particular
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: or say, if *a lot* of people left marginalia on a particular paragraph
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: the problem is the "lot" of people. This is not scalable in any sense. I don't want 50 faces after a paragraph interrupting the reading flow
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KartikPrabhu
does not expect 50 margin comments anyway
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: so you cap it at 6 (like Twitter) or some other number
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tantek
(the first 6)
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KartikPrabhu
but then why use them if your fav person is going to get blocked
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KartikPrabhu
blocked = hidden
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tantek
because 6 is better than nothing
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tantek
you could even put … or a + or a +n after it
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tantek
for >6
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KartikPrabhu
I actually don't like such "popularity" metrics
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tantek
but they're popularity on paragraphs! on ideas!
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tantek
that's a good thing!
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KartikPrabhu
I don't know. I don't like the "ooo this has 50 likes so I'll read it" situation
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tantek
sure - so that's a reason to not use +n and just trim at 6
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bear
if > N use a single avatar that is a crowd
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KartikPrabhu
I have been thinking of adding a marginalia count attribute in case people want to use it. I'll think about my site separately
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KartikPrabhu
bear: what did you think about the hollow/solid icon?
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bear
oh poo - I forgot to say… loved it - much easier for me to see and also re-find on a page after scrolling
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KartikPrabhu
SVGs are great! one icon for both hollow and solid! :D
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JonathanNeal
shepazu: did you win or did it beat you? re: svg
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JonathanNeal
Also. Top of the “A" is 82 including stroke. Base of the “I" is 40 inside stroke.
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johnkastler.net
created /User:Johnkastler.net (+13) "Created page with "Hello, world!""
(view diff)
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shepazu
JonathanNeal, sorry, still working on it
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shepazu
gimme another 10
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: anyway - just some thoughts - I find that UIs with faces like that are much friendlier, more humanizing, and the little splash of color at the end of a paragraph would help break up the b&w
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: of course. It just happens that that idea might not go with my design tastes. But I would like to see more diff. ways of doing it :)
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: why not put it somewhere in /annotation ? ;)
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: because it still feels too hypothetical / handwavy. If I was implementing it myself (even planning to soon) then I might capture it on the wiki.
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KartikPrabhu
aah I see
#
KartikPrabhu
you should get on the webmention wagon
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Loqi
agreed.
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KartikPrabhu
another reason I am reluctant at the moment, is that the facepile is very site-specific (who know where the avatar is.) I want to have some generally usable thing first
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: that (webmention) I *do* have plans / concrete thoughts for: http://indiewebcamp.com/Falcon#send_webmentions_for_posted_links
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tantek
wait how is the facepile site specific?
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tantek
you just get it from the logo or photo of the h-card of the author
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: I'll have to search for a u-photo element and gets its src and put it in the paragraph
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KartikPrabhu
note: I am not actually parsing any mf2 on the client side with JS.
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: you already do that in your existing marginalia display
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tantek
just get it from those
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shepazu
JonathanNeal, done
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shepazu
it's not perfect
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: no! I just move existing comments around. not finding any mf2 stuff
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KartikPrabhu
or parsing them in anyway
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shepazu
I erred on the size of geometric symmetry… the original was lopsided
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shepazu
I could easily change it
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JonathanNeal
shepazu: excited to see it.
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KartikPrabhu
link link link!
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kylewm
i'd guess the original was not lopsided intentionally
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shepazu
JonathanNeal, does that work for you?
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KartikPrabhu
btw tantek: you should leave marginalia comments with UI suggestions ;)
#
tantek
KartikPrabhu: genius :)
#
KartikPrabhu
that is what they're for!
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tantek
but do you show embedded images from marginalia?
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tantek
which I could use to illustrate my suggestion?
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KartikPrabhu
if they're in the comment then yes! I am pretty sure I allow img in responses
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tantek
(so many awesome things to blog about post-indiewebcamp pre-homebrewwebsiteclub!)
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KartikPrabhu
I do nothing special with marginalia compared to other comments except move them around
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KartikPrabhu
though some style might break, since I haven't gotten image laden responses yet!
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KartikPrabhu
will be a good test case!
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: I'd probably just use an inline style= attribute to size/align the image
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shepazu
JonathanNeal, can you ack that you got it?
#
tantek
bret - did you pick a bar for an informal PDX HWC tonight?
#
tantek
or dietrich? any chance of hosting @MozPDX?
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: I am not sure if my HTML cleaner gets rid of inline styles! Will be a really good test case.... looking forward to it. Along with fixing some webmention verification issues
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: ok cool
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tantek
KartikPrabhu btw do you have indie events on your site? We need a URL for Chicago here: http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-07-02-homebrew-website-club#URLs
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KartikPrabhu
hmm not posting events yet! I don't host enough really. but will work on adding that post type
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KartikPrabhu
let me re-phrase. none of my friends will look at indie-events! they're all FB people
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KartikPrabhu
<grumbles>
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JonathanNeal
shepazu: I see it! 159?
#
shepazu
159?
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shepazu
JonathanNeal, 159?
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KartikPrabhu
shepazu: viewBox
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shepazu
KartikPrabhu, they should be able to use FB and federate indie-events
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shepazu
JonathanNeal, KartikPrabhu yeah, that's the size of the original image
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KartikPrabhu
shepazu: I don't want FB stuff on my site :)
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KartikPrabhu
i keep FB for things I don't really care about :P
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JonathanNeal
shepazu: that’s why I was giving you normalized measurements.
#
shepazu
JonathanNeal, it doesn't matter what the measurements are
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shepazu
it's autoscaling
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shepazu
it fits whatever size you want
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shepazu
JonathanNeal, I can do 160, just a minute
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bret
tantek i think im tapped out for the week in terms of meetups. have to get ready to go on a 4th of july trip tomorrow too
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tantek
bret - that's fair
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JonathanNeal
I wish I knew how to draw in illustrator.
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tantek
bret, perhaps encourage other PDX folks to consider doing a meetup at a bar?
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tantek
is there a default IndieWeb hacking bar?
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tantek
(in PDX)
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bret
no, but that would be cool
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tantek
like maybe that one with the digital display of what brews/drinks they have on tap
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bret
oh bailies
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tantek
and that has the ability to have mexican food delivered from the place next door
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tantek
that seems like a reasonable default
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tantek
seems central enough
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bret
the mexian place with the bathroom in the strip club :)
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shepazu
JonathanNeal, I didn't draw it in Illustrator, I drew it in TextPad :P
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tantek
bret - yes, however the pub itself has its own bathrooms
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bret
oh portland
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tantek
so you can get the mexican food delivered to you at the bar, and then use the bar's bathrooms so you don't have to walk through the other club.
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bret
tantek the way portland works is that everyone leaves downtown at 5 XD. aaronpk and I met up and ford food and drink the other weekend and had a few people show up
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JonathanNeal
shepazu: wizard!
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bret
which is out in the SE portland area
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JonathanNeal
shepazu: by the way, I think we’ve collaborated once before, on, the HTML5 Gang Sign?
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shepazu
JonathanNeal, oh, right :)
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shepazu
not sure I "collaborated"… more… "piled on"
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JonathanNeal
Sadly, I can give you the exact X+Y points for the shape, but I don’t know how to draw it.
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shepazu
JonathanNeal, then you should learn SVG, it's not that hard
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shepazu
I didn't "draw", I handcoded this
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JonathanNeal
Link to beginner teaching material?
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bret
tantek well if no one steps up to do hwc tonight, i will be hacking on iw stuff next week and resume the normal meetups after that
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tantek
bret - good to hear it
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bret
but if emmak pauloppenheim or peat wanna do a hwc portland tonight feel free :)
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tantek
pauloppenheim is in portland?
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pauloppenheim
i am in sf
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pauloppenheim
hey, maybe someday!
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tantek
emmak peat - go for it!
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pauloppenheim
i promise i won't even pull a kevin rose
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pauloppenheim
tantek: have a party tonight. i have some curious things cooking, but not quite cooked
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JonathanNeal
shepazu: is H move by or move to?
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pauloppenheim
it's been a while tho, i miss you lovely people
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emmak
what is the tentative plan for PDX HWC? meet up for drinks and coding somewhere?
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shepazu
JonathanNeal, H is horizontal moveto
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shepazu
JonathanNeal, boarding a plane now, later!
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JonathanNeal
I think it’s move by, it’s based on the last coord.
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KartikPrabhu
is shepazu Doug Schepers ?
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kylewm
emmak: my understanding was that no one has volunteered to lead PDX or pick a place to hang out and code
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bret
aaronpk could you not host bust still want to meet?
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bret
s/bust/but
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Loqi
bret meant to say: aaronpk could you not host but still want to meet?
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aaronpk
bret: I have a dinner to go to and I don't know how late it will go
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aaronpk
I'll be downtown though so if you guys end up somewhere let me know cause I might be able to join you for a bit later
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bret
im going to be at home packing and decompressing from the last week and a half
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@PersonaInc
"@forrester: Consumers worry they have no control over who has access to their data. #FORRForum http://t.co/0pJbYAHcsM" #OwnYourData
(twtr.io/o4Q53Ahbij)
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willnorris
!tell tantek, could you release your NewBase60 implementation in Cassis under a “traditional” permissive license (Apache, MIT, BSD, etc). I’m getting a lot of pushback over the BY-SA license from Google lawyers in trying to release my Go port.
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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bret
willnorris :( that sux
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willnorris
bret: yeah, though to be fair, even Creative Commons themselves tell you that CC licenses shouldn’t be applied to software
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bret
how come?
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bret
ah i see
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@timklapdor
Great wrap up of #indiewebcamp from @holden http://hapgood.us/2014/07/02/indiewebcamp/ Inspiration for my reclaim project based on pragmatism (& not code)!
(twtr.io/o4TcVhEJaj)
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KartikPrabhu
HWC - Chicago activate!
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@jasongreen
I just figured out how to POSSE w/o Known: webmention plugin + brid.gy @timmmmyboy @jimgroom (http://blog.jasongreen.net/2014/07/without-known/)
(twtr.io/o4Uz5WmHjZ)
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gRegor`
php-mf2 question, specifically with barnabywalters' Functions.php:
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gRegor`
What's the best way to extract the in-reply-to URL?
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gRegor`
I was incorrectly using getPlaintext(), which assumes the link text is also my URL.
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gRegor`
getHtml() returned the same.
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gRegor`
Might just need to parse the array manually
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gRegor`
barnabywalters php-mf-cleaner, that is. https://github.com/barnabywalters/php-mf-cleaner
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GWG
gRegor`: We any closer to that deep dish?
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kylewm
gRegor`: I think you want `if isMicroformat(mf) return getPlaintext(mf, "url") else return toPlaintext(mf)`
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kylewm
where mf = entry["properties"]["in-reply-to"][0]
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@jmenglund03
What would a #posse approach to edtech look like? Possible LTI development, others? http://opencontent.org/blog/archives/3393 #indieweb
(twtr.io/o4WRxztYaF)
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Loqi
tantek: willnorris left you a message 50 minutes ago: you release your NewBase60 implementation in Cassis under a “traditional” permissive license (Apache, MIT, BSD, etc). I’m getting a lot of pushback over the BY-SA license from Google lawyers in trying to release my Go port.