2014-07-03 UTC
# 00:01 tantek willnorris - oh shoot ok I'll license just the newbase60 stuff cc0
# 00:01 gRegor` That did it. Thanks, kylewm!
# 00:02 gRegor` Revisiting some of my earliest wm code. Didn't have a very good grasp of mf2 :)
# 00:02 gRegor` I was wondering why I got back "this page" as an in-reply-to URL
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# 00:51 snarfed ping here and/or knock loud on the front door, tantek's usually there
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# 00:53 kylewm whoa dang, brendan eich retweeted ben's event post
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# 01:49 tantek … fmu.name, working on a startup called Matter, no relation to Matter VC, working on a product called Dark Matter
# 01:49 tantek … recently registered jden.is presaging his flight to Iceland
# 01:49 tantek … working on IndieFinger - trying to bring webfinger back
# 01:49 tantek … is actually going to help kill webfinger, because no one publishes in webfinger
# 01:49 tantek … but the notion of metadata around urls is useful for oither projects, so starting there
# 01:50 tantek … first time at HWC, but was at IndieWebCamp 2014 in Portland.
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# 01:51 Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
# 01:51 tantek … motivated to improve his site beyond Bluehost
# 01:52 Loqi tantek meant to say: … came because Ryan said to come
# 01:52 tantek HWC SF: Dave Doolin, wants to get the love back on the web, on his short domain dool.in
# 01:53 tantek … background in computational mechanics and civil engineering
# 01:54 KevinMarksAtMozi apparently mozilla blocks my irc client :(
# 01:54 tantek … my own website is a piece of crap right now
# 01:54 tantek … using a static site generator called blacksmith or metalsmith
# 01:55 tantek … got sick of wordpress which kept me from publishing
# 01:55 tantek … trying something simple with markdown files
# 01:55 tantek … but then I accidentally did the publish thing
# 01:56 KartikPrabhu gordonbrander: love the colour palette collection. wanted to do that myself but never happend!
# 02:00 KevinMarksAtMozi we just showed gordon marginalia and he loved it
# 02:06 KevinMarksAtMozi also Lonnie (who is working on medical search and references) was very impressed with what it makes possible for annotation
# 02:06 KartikPrabhu :D I want to do this for scientific papers but those things are written in horrible stuff like Latex and PDFs!
# 02:07 KevinMarksAtMozi so are medical things. munging PDF into HTML is part of the interesting problme space
# 02:08 KartikPrabhu Mozilla just open sources their JS that does PDF to HTML, but expectedly the ouput is not semantic in any sense
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# 02:39 aaronpk missed this from hapgood's article before.... "Ward highlighted for me how schemas — and particularly tight, locked-down database schemas — had killed user innovation."
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# 02:41 npdoty but just wanted to say that I read @aaronpk on IndieAuth with PGP and it took only a moment to add link rel="pgpkey" to my homepage and test it successfully
# 02:41 npdoty which is awesome, thanks for implementing that
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# 02:43 npdoty also, it's nice that the rel (and your implementation) support having the text of the key hosted somewhere else
# 02:44 npdoty so, for example, people who use keybase can just point to the ascii version hosted over there
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# 03:03 walteryu.com created /User:Walteryu.com (+355) "Created page with "<p class="h-card"> <img class="u-photo" src="http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100913232841/pacman/images/4/47/Pac-man-ghosts.jpg" alt="" /> <a class="p-name u-url" href="..."" (
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# 03:16 Loqi please verify venues for SF, Portland.
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# 03:25 KartikPrabhu tantek: just enabled img with src in comments! UI marginalia away! :)
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# 03:30 jden the question of threaded comments and comments on comments came up- does webmention forward things on? eg C mentions B which mentioned A, does A know about C?
# 03:30 KartikPrabhu jden: A can choose to know about C by parsing the microformats on the page B
# 03:31 jden in practice that doesnt sound like it's gonna happen
# 03:31 jden certainly not on a timeframe that would enable meaningful threaded discussion
# 03:32 KartikPrabhu the good thing about indie-comments is that they have their own URL which then has its own comments and all that
# 03:32 jden i'm on my phone right now so cant go into detail
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# 03:57 gRegor` KartikPrabhu: Possible webmention authorship scenario a la checkmention: Site A is a multi-author site and the article links to the author's personal site B. Not sure how to get around it, since the author is unlikely to link to Site A with a rel-me
# 03:58 gRegor` Something like Huffington Post
# 03:59 KartikPrabhu suppose A is multi-author site that sends me a webmention. I'll check that source=A.com and the h-entry u-url = A.com too
# 04:00 gRegor` I'm referring to author spoofing
# 04:00 gRegor` different h-card u-url
# 04:01 gRegor` As unlikely as it may be (currently)
# 04:02 gRegor` The only way to verify if that's really Jonny Ive would be if there was a rel-me back to that URL, from his apple.com profile, or some as-yet-undefined (?) "delegation"
# 04:03 gRegor` "I've written these pieces that appear on other sites."
# 04:03 gRegor` Which I could see happening with journalists.
# 04:04 gRegor` I might be thinking too far ahead, of course. :)
# 04:04 KartikPrabhu so the Jony Ive test does 2kinds of spoofing. It does a post-identity spoof and also an author-spoof
# 04:05 gRegor` post-identity?
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# 04:09 gRegor` Hi, JonathanNeal. How goes webmention?
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# 04:25 JonathanNeal I’m also now interested in site authentication. At first I was looking at xhr.withCredentials but this is unsupported in IE9, which puts a wrench in finding something easily adoptable.
# 04:32 JonathanNeal As I understand it, some website scans your website, finds a service it mentions, and then asks that service if you are logged in.
# 04:36 JonathanNeal If this is how it works, then it means we trust, in order 1. some site to accurately read ours without compromise, 2. our site to accurately return some third party service without compromise, and 3. some third party service to return our logged in state without compromise.
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# 04:39 JonathanNeal If I am right in this understanding, I see no reason not to let my own website authenticate me, say, with a JSONP call to /whoami.js that executes whoami(my_data) or requires whatever further authentication methods I prefer for my own site. I control the blanket or selective whitelisting of other sites, etc.
# 04:55 kylewm JonathanNeal: indieauth doesn't have any sort of persistent "logged in" state, as far as I know
# 04:56 KartikPrabhu kylewm: the persistance is on the side of the authenticator not IndieAuth i think
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# 06:10 KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal: a question pertaining to marginalia.js stuff. Is <button> allowed inside <p> according to HTML valid rules?
# 06:12 KartikPrabhu I see cool! thanks. might move the block thingie right after the <p>. that might help some of the CSS weirdness I get too
# 06:19 KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal: out of curiosity - are you aiming to completely indiewebify your site? or only get some bits like webmention working?
# 06:23 KartikPrabhu it is a list of "levels" on different axes for indiewebsites to get working
# 06:25 KartikPrabhu note that all the axes are more or less independent. For instance I am not "search level 2" but I am "security level 4" or something
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# 09:31 Loqi bnvk: binbasti left you a message 1 day ago: yes, that'd be great. i was traveling a lot during the last couple of days, but i should be more available again next week latest
# 09:32 bnvk !tell binbasti: cool, let's touch base next week then, my traveling & conf speaking whirlwind is just starting :P
# 09:32 Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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# 11:18 Loqi [@marcbubb] Simple #UX "Here you go Grandma..."
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# 13:44 voxpelli pfefferle: released a new version of the WebMention Testpinger yesterday – with some added colors and such – any feedback on whether it became better or worse is welcome :)
# 14:00 pfefferle voxpelli looks very nice! the colors makes it the output more clear!
# 14:00 voxpelli pfefferle: thought so as well :) It became especially cluttered when I added the timestamps in there otherwise
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# 14:02 pfefferle voxpelli do you have any plans for the verbose feature and/or the delete/update stuff?
# 14:04 voxpelli pfefferle: no concrete plans at the moment – the delete/update stuff will at least happen when my endpoint starts supporting it
# 14:04 voxpelli I'm currently working on extending other parts of my endpoint
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# 14:07 voxpelli pfefferle: unfortunately not ;) It's one of my big points on my list right now: Get automated tests of the endpoint up so that I can discover when I break things – would likely have to be integration tests like these ones rather than unit tests
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# 14:21 pfefferle voxpelli will use your endpoint on my openwebicons site soon… as feedback tool…
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# 14:26 bnvk I take it, one can "add" to it fairly easy?
# 14:29 bnvk namely, PGP / open security protocol icons
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# 14:29 bnvk I'm trying to proliferate some standard icon ideas for encryption / signature state
# 14:31 pfefferle bnvk ah, got it. I have not discovered an ideal way to contibute to the project yet, but feel free to open an issue and/or provide an svg if you have some ideas
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# 14:43 Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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# 15:03 Loqi bnvk: pfefferle left you a message 19 minutes ago: thanks for tweeting/apping about it :)
# 15:18 GWG pfefferle, I saw the icons you linked to.
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# 15:27 GWG Any site using the icon set for me to see?
# 15:39 GWG I wonder if some of them would be recognized by a mainstream user.
# 15:42 GWG pfefferle, I, as always, appreciate your efforts.
# 15:44 GWG I am thinking of sending a pull request when I get to it for a webmentions count function.
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# 16:56 jden has anyone done POSSE for github issues yet?
# 17:06 tantek if you know of any other examples of POSSEing to Github, please add to that section of the wiki!
# 17:08 jden it's something i want to work on. i've got this crazy plan to use gists to bootstrap my notes.jden.us page (as a backing store), then using that to POSSE github issues, and then ultimately developing something to move away from gists that's self-hosted
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# 17:15 gRegor` Whoa, Chicago has a new HWC attendee RSVPing!
# 17:16 tantek (you'll notice that many of us have "Working On" and "Itches" sections on our user pages with collections of these things)
# 17:17 tantek gRegor`: yeah! better get on there and RSVP as well!
# 17:17 Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
# 17:17 gRegor` Yeah, going to send a "hello" note as well.
# 17:19 tantek !tell aaronpk,tommorris is there some way on MediaWiki sites to get the change log for a particular *day* (e.g. using ISODates) ?
# 17:19 Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
# 17:20 Loqi tommorris: tantek left you a message 1 minute ago: is there some way on MediaWiki sites to get the change log for a particular *day* (e.g. using ISODates) ?
# 17:25 tantek tommorris - use-case: I want to link to "changes to the wiki on this day" on every Homebrew Website Club meetup page, so anyone looking at an archived event can go see pages were "active" immediately before/during/after the meeting.
# 17:25 tantek likely useful once we start writing up summaries
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# 17:28 tommorris tantek: only problem I can think of is that the RecentChanges table is only kept for a certain period
# 17:28 tommorris tantek: for IWC, the answer might be to find (or write) a MediaWiki extension that uses the revision table rather than the recentchanges table
# 17:29 gRegor` tantek tommorris: aaronpk is generating that email weekly (?) of new pages / recent changes, so that could probably be adapted.
# 17:30 tommorris tantek: the reasoning is a weird Wikipedia optimisation - the recentchanges feed on Wikipedia has *so much stuff* in it that it uses a separate database table to hold just the last X days worth of changes rather than the whole revision log
# 17:30 tommorris gRegor`, tantek: the data is all there, it’s just MediaWiki exposes it slightly odd for Wikipedianish reasons. ;)
# 17:31 gRegor` I'm not sure if aaronpk's implementation of that is generating static content or querying the database each time. I think the former.
# 17:32 tantek gRegor`: good point! that content should at least be available at a URL - not just in email :)
# 17:33 tommorris a permalog extension is probably worth building, but… eeww, MediaWiki+PHP
# 17:33 gRegor` I think it is a URL, but I forget where.
# 17:37 tommorris on the indieweb front, this week I have been trying to work out how exactly I’m going to publish photos on my own site
# 17:40 tommorris tantek: not so much, more CSS and workflow and hosting I’ve been trying to sort out
# 17:41 tommorris irritations thus far: Amazon S3 does not have any post-upload callback
# 17:42 tommorris being able to simply dump photos into an S3 bucket and then get a POST callback that triggers things going would be amazingly useful, but alas no.
# 17:58 kylewm when folks got set up with a site at HWC last night, what host did they use? (out of curiosity)
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# 18:02 snarfed kylewm: the two tantek mentioned were friends of mine who already had a decent start. one on self-hosted wp, one on a homegrown static generator
# 18:02 snarfed their main progress was working through indiewebify.me - rel-me, mf2, webmentions, etc
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# 18:30 gRegor` !tell KartikPrabhu I contact my friend Marcy about possible having HWC at The Living Room space. It's further away from you, unfortunately. http://wearepolymathic.com/events/ Will keep you posted, though.
# 18:30 Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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# 18:41 kylewm does using other indiewebbers' tools qualify as "dogfooding"?
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# 19:21 Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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# 19:24 Loqi KartikPrabhu: gRegor` left you a message 54 minutes ago: I contact my friend Marcy about possible having HWC at The Living Room space. It's further away from you, unfortunately. http://wearepolymathic.com/events/ Will keep you posted, though.
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# 19:32 Loqi aaronpk: tantek left you a message 2 hours, 13 minutes ago: is there some way on MediaWiki sites to get the change log for a particular *day* (e.g. using ISODates) ?
# 19:34 tantek aaronpk - issues themselves or just comments on issues?
# 19:34 aaronpk tantek: there's a good mediawiki API that can return changelogs for specific date ranges, that's how I do this week in the indieweb reports
# 19:34 tantek I'm assuming "API" in this case means something more than just a query URL?
# 19:35 aaronpk and yes gRegor` found the archives! it's all just HTML, not DB queries
# 19:37 tantek JonathanNeal: just the "take a stab at some CSS" bit :)
# 19:37 chloeweil just font-family Helvetica, all font-weight 300 on it, font-size 18px boom
# 19:40 tantek <style>body { font: 300 100%/1.5 "Helvetica Neue", sans-serif
# 19:41 tantek aaronpk - what do you think of replacing the personal domain lists with facepile sparklines?
# 19:41 tantek you would see the little icons from {{aaronpk}} and {{t}}
# 19:43 aaronpk i'd have to check how that looks on a kindle, but yeah
# 19:45 tantek aaronpk, gRegor`, KartikPrabhu, as fellow HWC co-organizers, please review this to see if it reflects reality for you and makes sense.
# 19:46 Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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# 19:48 tantek is trying to lower the barrier to running a Homebrew Website Club meetup - and improve chances of documentation and welcoming of new people.
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# 19:50 kylewm aaronpk: does Courier New exist and/or look good on a Mac?
# 19:51 gRegor` tantek: HWC photos, sure. I guess I've just felt awkward being in a busy coffee shop and stopping to take a picture. :)
# 19:51 gRegor` Proper newlines, kylewm? ;)
# 19:51 aaronpk i'm pretty sure it's there by default, but maybe it comes with MS Word
# 19:52 gRegor` You can also do font: monospace
# 19:52 gRegor` (if we're talking about CSS)
# 19:52 gRegor` Er, font-family: monospace;
# 19:52 kylewm that's what I was going to ask for for the irc logs ^
# 19:52 tantek gRegor`: even if it's just a quirky selfie with some bit of cafe art or wall or table background
# 19:53 tantek haha I was going to ask for Helvetica for the IRC logs
# 19:53 tantek when Nicole saw me reading the logs on my iPod, she asked what *code* I was looking at
# 19:53 chloeweil KartikPrabhu hey there
# 19:53 aaronpk of course... if I add <link href="http://tantek.com/indiewebcamp.css"> to the page then you can set whatever font you want yourself :)
# 19:53 tantek for IRC logs - heck in most clients it's not fixed width, e.g. Colloquy
# 19:54 aaronpk uses IRC through terminal so I'm used to fixed width everywhere
# 19:54 aaronpk although my fixed width font in my terminal is nicer
# 19:55 kylewm I don't have Helvetica, but sans-serif looks good to me on the IRC logs
# 19:55 gRegor` It looks like we might be doubling our size next meeting.
# 19:55 tantek then you'll almost be as big as the Minneapolis meeting ;)
# 19:56 gRegor` votes for fixed width on IRC logs
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# 19:56 chloeweil Think of chat programs people use, is the font family so important? A lot of them are just sans serif
# 19:57 chloeweil A lot of times differentiating who’s speaking from what time it was and what they were saying is valuable, like in iMessage
# 19:57 rascul most of the time irc clients default to monospace font if the option is there
# 19:57 tantek we have a discussion forum - we just happen to use IRC for it under the hood ;)
# 19:58 kylewm KartikPrabhu: including the new Teahouse theme for the wiki?
# 19:58 chloeweil Yeah, an increase in whitepsace and maybe offsetting the name of the person from the content of what they were saying so that multi-lines of text dont wrap under the name, that’s a detail though
# 19:58 chloeweil Put in a max width so that the measure of hte text doesnt get too insane and you’ve got a nice reading environment just like that
# 19:59 tantek you won't need to increase whitespace between lines if you put in a max-width as chloeweil suggests
# 19:59 chloeweil People love slack hq, just look at their reading environment and take the things they do welll
# 19:59 chloeweil Which is that they make it clear to see who’s speaking and what they said, and de-emphasized is the time stamp
# 20:00 gRegor` chloeweil: I love your music stats page. Kartik was showing that to me last night.
# 20:00 chloeweil About things Slack does well? I’ve never used it, I just know they’re doing something right because people are fanatical about it
# 20:00 gRegor` I'm also very interested in your iTunes meta data export, chloeweil
# 20:01 chloeweil Aw thanks gregor`
# 20:01 gRegor` Whoa, thanks Loqi
# 20:01 gRegor` Ok, now it's getting a bit weird
# 20:01 tantek rascul - it's a friendlier replacement for IRC
# 20:01 tantek says without ever having actually used it, and only watched people use it.
# 20:01 chloeweil Slack is just a really nice chat thang, its got github integration and other nice stuff
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# 20:03 KartikPrabhu gregor`: if you manage to get The Living Room or any other, I'm sure I can make it. Its Chicago... public transit FTW
# 20:03 rascul i guess if it looked like that then variable width fonts would be good
# 20:03 gRegor` That's what I figured, KartikPrabhu. Pretty easy from the blue line
# 20:05 KartikPrabhu tantek: re: structure. looks good. We might follow that more once we have more than 2 people :)
# 20:06 KartikPrabhu kylewm: the teahouse theme is nice but also too small font size for me. still use it at some zoom.
# 20:07 chloeweil.com created /Slack (+420) "Created page with "People love Slack HQ. They make it clear to see who’s speaking with avatars and whitespace, offset the speaker from the text, make it clear what the person said, and de-emphasi..."" (
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# 20:07 chloeweil oh god im polluting the wiki with uninformed content
# 20:08 tantek KartikPrabhu: at least start taking/posting group photos ASAP!
# 20:09 aaronpk building in group photos to the actual schedule is a great idea
# 20:09 aaronpk will prevent me from forgetting to take a photo in the future
# 20:09 KartikPrabhu tantek: sure thing! seems like we'll have an expanded group next time :)
# 20:09 gRegor` Interesting. What resolution are you using, KartikPrabhu?
# 20:09 tantek also helps make a break in between the phases
# 20:09 aaronpk also the halfway point is usually a good time because people trickle in late and also sometimes leave early
# 20:10 tantek yes! aaronpk - feel free to add that to the structure as reasoning.
# 20:10 gRegor` KartikPrabhu: Also, in case you didn't see /wiki/redesign yet, you can set up an IWC css file on your own site to customize things.
# 20:10 aaronpk also I'm going to be in san diego next HWC so we'll need another PDX host
# 20:10 gRegor` I'm going to be playing with it and submitting some tweaks to the repo
# 20:10 gRegor` I hadn't checked if it's responsive
# 20:11 gRegor` The font size isn't responsive. Just looks like the sidebar gets removed when going smaller
# 20:12 gRegor` Actually, i think my Win8 might be on zoom, so maybe that's why it doesn't seem bad to me.
# 20:13 aaronpk downside of terminal IRC is I don't always get emoji here
# 20:14 gRegor` Just got garbled text in Chatzilla
# 20:14 donpdonp the emoji network doesnt use emojis in the domain name.
# 20:14 gRegor` It already should be UTF-8
# 20:15 gRegor` Oh, it's a pen and pencil?
# 20:15 gRegor` Just small. Looks like a solid line mostly
# 20:18 voxpelli How do eg.WebMentions endpoints typically handle a local time defined in a h-entry dt-published?
# 20:18 Loqi Trovebox (formerly OpenPhoto) is a photo application project that lets you store your photos on Dropbox, Amazon S3 or in your garage, and serve them from URLs on your own domain http://indiewebcamp.com/OpenPhoto
# 20:18 aaronpk KartikPrabhu: do you mean something you can install yourself?
# 20:19 rascul KartikPrabhu i've found several (which i don't remember names, though) but none that i would call good
# 20:19 rascul i was looking into that not too incredibly long ago
# 20:19 KartikPrabhu I am currently using Google for it, because it gives me multiple resolutions for each to do responsive stuffs
# 20:19 voxpelli KartikPrabhu: Exactly – just realized my endpoint parses all dates without a time zone relative to its own time zone
# 20:20 rascul eventually i will roll my own solution integrated into my site but that's probably a ways down the road at my pace
# 20:20 aaronpk KartikPrabhu: right now I use flickr and my flickr-archiver which makes a copy
# 20:22 tantek KartikPrabhu: tommorris was talking this morning about working on photo posting as well.
# 20:22 aaronpk for me, photo posting to my timeline is very different from hosting all my photos
# 20:22 chloeweil On my hard drive like a person from the 90s
# 20:23 voxpelli KartikPrabhu: UTC would probably be better, it's weird of a post mentioning two others can appear with different timestamps on the two
# 20:23 aaronpk i'm pretty happy with my photo notes now, but don't have a good plan for moving off of flickr
# 20:23 KartikPrabhu chloeweil: nice :) I have hard drive copies too but you know the internetz
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# 20:23 gRegor` KartikPrabhu: So yeah, my Win8 was at 140% zoom. Def see what you mean when it's not zoomed.
# 20:23 chloeweil I use instagram and send my instagram photos to flickr but otherwise all the photos I take on my phone just go into iPhoto and thats it.
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# 20:25 Loqi photo brainstorming is a page where indieweb users who are working out how to publish photos on their own site can document design challenges, issues, brainstorm ideas and show examples of photography on the web that inspires them http://indiewebcamp.com/photo_brainstorming
# 20:30 cweiske KartikPrabhu, I'd be grateful if you could try out mediagoblin
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# 20:33 tommorris aaronpk: I’m not so much interested in posting on my timeline. I want to be able to easily post photo stories. and each of those stories also has a page for the photo
# 20:34 tommorris aaronpk: yep, sort of like a set on flickr, but with text mixed in
# 20:34 aaronpk sweet, i've been thinking about that too, calling it "collections"
# 20:34 voxpelli KartikPrabhu: if you don't want a database – perhaps take a look at some Jekyll plugins?
# 20:36 tommorris my user story is basically this: I go out and shoot a parade or a protest or an event. I get home. I put my SD card into my computer. I import a bunch of RAW files. I process them in, well, ideally Aperture but probably Lightroom now Apple are killing Aperture. then I spit out a page with beautiful responsive images that look great on all devices and publish
# 20:36 KartikPrabhu snarfed: yeha have seen those. people are quite impressed by it. the automatic stories are "meh" at best
# 20:36 snarfed yup, that's a good description. thanks for writing it!
# 20:37 tommorris aaronpk: I’ll probably put it on to photo brainstorming until my thoughts have solidified some more.
# 20:38 tommorris also, tomorrow: Indie Tech Summit. adactio is talking about IndieWebCamp. I’m talking about OpenStreetMap and cool shit OSMers are doing.
# 20:39 tommorris I have to get out of the house at a ludicrous hour to get down to Brighton, so I should probably get ready. ;-)
# 20:39 tommorris I don’t think I’ve actually been to Brighton since I moved to London
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# 20:43 tantek tommorris - good luck at Indie Tech Summit and see if you can recruit some creators for IWC UK!
# 20:43 tantek needs to get his dConstruct ticket and sign up for IWC UK also!
# 20:43 tommorris tantek: yep. my talk isn’t actually about IndieWebCamp - I was going to sneak some IndieWeb propaganda in, but I’m going to talk about cool stuff that OpenStreetMappers are doing
# 20:44 tommorris specifically, the work that the Humanitarian OpenStreetMap Team are doing to help international aid agencies in crisis response
# 20:44 tommorris (delivering food and medical supplies to people displaced by natural disasters isn’t a “killer app”, it’s a life-saver app.)
# 20:44 tantek perhaps a quick line about how OSM enabled you do post your own indiecheckins on your own site as a indie alternative to Foursquare?
# 20:45 tommorris yep. also talking about Wheelmap, the OSM-based project to crowdsource wheelchair accessibility.
# 20:45 tantek since it's a small personal thing but still cool, and then you can get all serious, life-saving, world-changing ;)
# 20:45 tommorris and lots of other cool shit that people who have open data + open source tools + pure motives can do.
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# 20:52 pdurbin KartikPrabhu: that drives me crazy, how comments on G+ are not "first class"
# 20:52 KartikPrabhu will be a problem if I start strogin external content as multiple comments will have the same URL
# 20:56 tantek KartikPrabhu: no - FB has better UX innovation that Twitter these days
# 20:56 tantek I fully expect at least a few of us to superset Twitter by IndieWebCamp 2015
# 20:56 tantek as in - you do everything on your own site that you would otherwise do on Twitter
# 20:57 snarfed KartikPrabhu: re G+ comments, you can fake permalinks by adding arbitrary fragments, e.g. #USERID
# 20:57 snarfed FB event attendees have the same problem, no permalink for an individual user's RSVP, so i do the fragment thing for them in bridgy
# 20:57 tantek (un)follow, read, post, delete, reply, (un)retweet, (un)favorite
# 20:58 snarfed yeah, bridgy could definitely do it for G+ comments too. i'll file an issue
# 20:59 tantek KartikPrabhu: makes sense - create a test account just for R&D
# 20:59 pdurbin I just can't get into Facebook. Maybe I haven't tried hard enough.
# 20:59 aaronpk tantek: I know you have a few places on the wiki which are sort of a "checklist to be better than [facebook,twitter]" but are they collected anywhere nicely?
# 20:59 tantek snarfed - FB events used to put a post up for every RSVP "… is going"
# 21:00 tantek aaronpk - hmm - FB is too feature-rich for now
# 21:00 tantek but Twitter, I think that we could break down
# 21:10 aaronpk nice to see a startup focusing on helping people own their web presence!
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# 21:12 aaronpk who is behind pop.co? we should invite them to HWC!
# 21:13 tantek brianloveswords: you too! it was quite the epic event at the NYT!
# 21:14 aaronpk pop.co seems to be based in florida but with a somewhat distributed team
# 21:15 tantek perhaps that should be our moon-shot for 2015 IWC
# 21:15 tantek Who will be the first to fully implement a functional replacement for all of Twitter features using their own site so they no longer need to touch Twitter UI?
# 21:15 aaronpk that or getting everyone to RSVP from their sites to register :)
# 21:18 aaronpk well i think they are focused on sites for companies actually
# 21:21 aaronpk funny, they even link to a twitter account for one of their team members which has exactly 1 tweet from 2011 and has been since untouched
# 21:23 aaronpk their example is "www.youridea.co" rather than "yourname.co"
# 21:26 tantek aaronpk - sounds dead, perhaps start a /pop.co stub with "Criticism" accordingly?
# 21:27 tantek KartikPrabhu: no, the ability to *walk away from twitter's UI* is the moon-shot
# 21:27 tantek reader is just another feature, like any other in that list
# 21:27 KartikPrabhu FB: "Hi Kartik, we'd like to hear your feedback! Please answer a few questions about News Feed." K: No thanks!
# 21:28 tantek KartikPrabhu: in what form did you receive that request?
# 21:29 tantek any way to reply with a request for a $ amount?
# 21:30 KartikPrabhu screenshotting the whole process: "On the next few pages you'll see some Facebook posts. Above each post there will be a statement and a rating scale. Rate how much you agree with the statement for each post." first question
# 21:30 tantek can't decide if Twitter does note posts with photo(s) or photo posts.
# 21:31 aaronpk also the photo URL is always included in the tweet
# 21:31 tantek aaronpk - but is that a note with a photo, or a photo with a caption?
# 21:32 tantek or are those two different post types at all?
# 21:32 aaronpk i think instagram is more like photos with captions
# 21:32 tantek those of you working on /photo posting support - what approach are you working on? do you see any difference between note+photo and photo+caption?
# 21:32 KartikPrabhu Twitter has photo + text. now it could be a 1. main text with side photo or 2. main photo + side caption text
# 21:35 KartikPrabhu FB showed me a bunch of posts from my "News Feed" and asked "I want to see more of this". Turns out I answered "strongly disagree" to all of them.
# 21:35 tantek KartikPrabhu: you can post up to 4 photos inside a tweet
# 21:36 KartikPrabhu I am saying that Twitter's post model is flexible enough to be interpreted either way :)
# 21:36 tantek but there is no way to just see all your photos right?
# 21:36 tantek I think all photos are trapped/nested inside notes in their user content model
# 21:38 KartikPrabhu for Twitter everything is a tweet... which is good and sometimes not good
# 21:38 aaronpk so I forgot my Yo password and couldn't find a password reset feature. so I tweeted at them and they said to email support. I emailed support and then like 12 hours later they manually emailed me back with a new password in the email. there is no way for me to change it as far as i can tell.
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# 21:51 KartikPrabhu gregor`: I also don't mind startign HWC later to sync up with PDX/SF through talky or something
# 21:54 KartikPrabhu would ion fact be better for me, since then I won't have to leave during "work hours"
# 21:54 gRegor` How do you guys do that, take turns doing intros on talky?
# 21:55 gRegor` I'm a night person, so 8:30 doesn't bother me, if it works well for others
# 21:57 tantek is quite pleased with just how much of Twitter's functionality we've documented / implemented in IndieWebCamp
# 21:57 tantek no, there IS a page for everything Twitter does
# 21:58 tantek there are IndieWeb *implementations* for almost everything Twitter does
# 22:01 tantek KartikPrabhu: that Twitter "photo and videos" tab does NOT just show posted photos
# 22:02 aaronpk I realized that "repost" is basically the author putting some other content into their main timeline with the intent of causing that post to appear to readers
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# 22:03 aaronpk such as the posts that I do not by default include in my main feed
# 22:04 tantek left out all the "setting up your profile" features like uploading an icon, background, profile fields (bio, website, location)
# 22:07 snarfed gRegor`: short answer, twitter is rate limiting you right now
# 22:08 gRegor` does refreshing the app go towards that? I haven't been posting a lot today
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# 22:08 snarfed gRegor`: nah, the rate limit is api calls only, not web client
# 22:08 gRegor` Oh. Hm. I should check what other apps are connected.
# 22:09 tantek aaronpk, we had a VERY good discussion session about reposts in NYC - I think you should see those notes
# 22:09 tantek KartikPrabhu: yes the consensus at the session was that reposts were intended as just providing the original, though we documented variants
# 22:10 KartikPrabhu specially the whole "add something RT original content" seems to be popular
# 22:11 tantek KartikPrabhu: but those aren't "retweets" per se, so I'd rather not consider them as such
# 22:11 tantek some have been using "MT" (modified tweet / mentioned tweet) instead
# 22:13 gRegor` I've always understood MT to be modified tweet, meaning the text was altered somehow. Shortened, link removed, or text altered to make it humorous.
# 22:19 kylewm fwiw, I've never seen MT mean "mentioned tweet"
# 22:20 kylewm (but I use repost to mean "repost with optional caption")
# 22:21 gRegor` what is modified tweet
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# 22:39 kylewm i'm doing a little bit of research/experimentation on CSS frameworks, is that something worth documenting on the wiki?
# 22:39 gRegor` I think it'd be good, even if just on your user space for now.
# 22:40 tantek phew that was more painful than expected. (homepage merge)
# 22:40 kylewm feels a little like beating a dead horse. a zillion blog posts about them already. userspace is a good idea
# 22:41 tantek kylewm - maybe how you use it on your site? User page?
# 22:42 tantek not sure - is there anything specifically "indieweb" about the way you're approaching CSS frameworks? or is it general webdev?
# 22:44 aaronpk hm yeah general webdev stuff isn't super needed on the wiki
# 22:44 tantek I mean, feel free to link from your User page on what tools you like and stuff
# 22:44 tantek but your own research/experimentation on CSS frameworks would probably work better as a blog post on your site :)
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# 22:58 aaronpk question: how would everyone feel about first-time wiki logins being reported here?
# 23:01 KartikPrabhu aaronpk: surely people who have logged in before don't mind, but might be aggressive for the first-timers, since they don't know to expect it
# 23:02 aaronpk might prompt the regulars to congratulate them is what i'm thinking :)
# 23:03 snarfed might be a bit aggressive. social norm is that logging into a website is a private action
# 23:03 snarfed broadcasting it would probably surprise most people, not pleasantly
# 23:03 KartikPrabhu yes. but some people might want to just covertly play around with things
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# 23:09 aaronpk i think the discussion was more about whether we should even have basic nginx config tutorials on the wiki
# 23:09 aaronpk i don't remember a solid resolution being reached
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# 23:13 gRegor` Whoa, surprised that doesn't exist yet
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# 23:14 tantek agreed about projects - since we're not actively pushing indieweb stuff upstream into nginx or Apache (or are we?)
# 23:14 tantek however I *do* think they are worth keeping as pages on the wiki, with an indieweb-point-of-ivew
# 23:14 Loqi tantek meant to say: however I *do* think they are worth keeping as pages on the wiki, with an indieweb-point-of-view
# 23:15 tantek there's just too much overly detailed hard to read docs on stuff like nginx / Apache out there on static non-editable pages and it's futile to try to fix those
# 23:15 tantek so we should create the simplest / most minimal docs by and for indieweb folks for those
# 23:16 tantek where we cite examples like that that we find
# 23:19 gRegor` Heh, small world (wide web)
# 23:20 gRegor` IIS . . . there's their problem.
# 23:21 KartikPrabhu I want to have pagination on my stream/feed but numbered pages are arbitrary
# 23:21 kylewm aaronpk: don't have a blogpost about that too?
# 23:22 kylewm :/ I thought I read something you wrote about it somewhere... maybe just in chat
# 23:24 aaronpk i think it's just ignoring it if you don't include the last digit
# 23:25 tantek.com edited /User:Tantek.com (+745) "note highlevel goals: replace all my Twitter/FB usage with my own site instead prioritize a few inbox requests to community actions, move working on further up" (
view diff )
# 23:25 kylewm I like the idea of the oldest content being page 1
# 23:26 KartikPrabhu i paginate articles by year as they are not posted as often. I am a bit confused as to how to do notes stream
# 23:28 gRegor` page 1 being the most recent.
# 23:28 kylewm KartikPrabhu: what about just doing them by month?
# 23:29 aaronpk wow I can't believe even a site like nbcnews.com has issues like this
# 23:30 kylewm yeah, it's not like it's from 5 years ago or anything
# 23:30 KartikPrabhu kylewm: yeah might do a monthly page. but might not be scalable as the months go by! :)
# 23:31 kylewm KartikPrabhu: do you think you might start writing more than 3-4 notes a day?
# 23:31 KartikPrabhu no. not really. but the number of months will increase. so 5 years from now I'll have 60 pages of notes!
# 23:32 gRegor` Why not #x notes per page?
# 23:32 gRegor` Well, every page changes.
# 23:33 gRegor` doesn't think of pagination as an archive link
# 23:33 gRegor` but maybe I should?
# 23:33 KartikPrabhu i am asking about pagination as a UI for browsing archives or streams
# 23:33 aaronpk URLs are share-able and link-able. seems bad to be changing the contents from under people if they link to an archive page.
# 23:34 gRegor` Each note has a permalink... and eventually I could add /YYYY/MM/ archive views, since that's already part of the URL structure
# 23:35 KartikPrabhu gregor`: so you expect people to change the URL to see the "next" page?
# 23:35 gRegor` I don't have links between notes yet, if that's what you mean
# 23:35 gRegor` I have "older" and "newer" at the bottom of the notes stream
# 23:36 gRegor` Yes I do. I just have <: 20 notes :)
# 23:36 gRegor` I can change the threshold lower if you'd like to experiment with it
# 23:36 gRegor` I'm still working out kinks, though, thus notes aren't even in the main navigation yet.
# 23:37 gRegor` I just set the threshold to 5, so if you refresh you should see pagination
# 23:38 gRegor` Thanks. I was pretty proud of that design element
# 23:38 KartikPrabhu yeah see, the permalink to the pagination is useless. because the stuff on it keeps changing
# 23:38 gRegor` I just haven't thought of it as a permalnk. ::shrug::
# 23:39 gRegor` each note has a permalink.
# 23:39 gRegor` How often do you try to share the 5th page of someone's tweets and get frustrated that Twitter doesn't allow you to? :) Not saying it can't be a new indieweb feature... I just don't see much need for it.
# 23:40 snarfed KartikPrabhu: one key point is, if you want page permalinks, they can't have a page number. they need to be a datetime or other global id, like aaronpk uses
# 23:41 aaronpk snarfed: yeah that's what i've been doing with date-based paging
# 23:41 gRegor` Interesting. I'll think about it more
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# 23:42 aaronpk should really implement partial-date paths like gRegor` mentioned
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# 23:51 aaronpk kbs: did you see the gpg auth I added on indieauth.com?
# 23:51 kbs aaronpk: nice! and, no - haven't been active on indieweb things for some time -- looking
# 23:54 kbs What is the challenge text being signed?
# 23:55 aaronpk it's things like "me" and "scope" encoded as a JWT
# 23:56 kbs [One thought here is some paranoid gpg users may be reluctant to sign arbitrary text, as it has the potential to lead to forged assertions by the signer]
# 23:58 aaronpk interesting, so that means signing that challenge is making a potentially public statement saying "I signed in to this website on this date as this URL"
# 23:59 aaronpk and that statement can be verified, whereas normally sign-in logs cannot be verified since a service can generate forged logs so easily
# 23:59 aaronpk (potentailly public because the signer is trusting that the service is not publishing the signed text but has no real guarantee)