#indiewebcamp 2014-07-06

2014-07-06 UTC
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lazlazlaz1 yeah
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lazlazlaz1 really clever
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tantek thanks! it came out of a sense of frustration with the hassle(s) with OpenID.
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lazlazlaz1 Oh man, yeah, OpenID did end up being a touch confusing
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tantek in so many ways. for users, publishers, consumers, app developers. everybody. :/
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tantek !tell aaronpk re: reader use case of temporary following of a hashtag, could prototype with Loqi here especially when on topic
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek e.g.
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tantek Loqi, track #indie2014 for 7 days.
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@InternetSabrina Go @T, go! RT @kevinmarks: "You're not going to email yourself into building a website." -- @t http://t.co/9w9U50Qx43 … #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/485575168316964864)
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aaronpk waves
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Loqi aaronpk: tantek left you a message 1 minute ago: re: reader use case of temporary following of a hashtag, could prototype with Loqi here especially when on topic
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aaronpk that would be really interesting!
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lazlazlaz1 just noticed that "domain.com" != "www.domain.com" for indieauth, is that intentional?
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tantek yes. because they are not the same.
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tantek just as tantek.tumblr.com is not the same as tumblr.com
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lazlazlaz1 ah yeh, good point
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tantek "www." is not special. mostly, it's superfluous, per no-www.org
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bret lazlazlaz1: static sites have some nice qualities, but they also offer a set of challenges that make them harder to do dynamic things that php or other web frameworks make easyish
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bret lazlazlaz1: currenly working on https://github.com/bcomnes/gitpub to automate a git workflow that people typically use to post to their static sites
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tantek laz, see also http://indiewebcamp.com/subdomains
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lazlazlaz1 Yeah I switched to static since I wasn't doing anything dynamic and it seemed a bit pointless running all this php code behind it
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lazlazlaz1 But now I want to!
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lazlazlaz1 dammit
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aaronpk at that level php is more of a templating language than a full server-side stack like node or ruby
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aaronpk luckily the php tools around microformats and indieweb are pretty extensive!
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tantek.com edited /subdomains (+232) "avoid www, see also" (view diff)
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bret tantek: i wonder if gitpub would be a good approach for your site to add webmention/micropub support, as your posting interface consists of editing a text file at this point
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aaronpk bret: you'd have to convince tantek to use git first ;)
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tantek haha yeah that.
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bret he wont have to use git, it does the git for you!
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tantek more like I want to force myself to code the minimal php (rather, CASSIS) support necessary in order to share those libraries (or reuse others')
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KartikPrabhu tantek: you can't use my arguments! :|
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bret I want to teach git to tantek next time we are in the same place
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aaronpk i'm not sure how well that would go over :)
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KartikPrabhu wait tantek doesn't do git!
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KartikPrabhu as a new learner of git myself.. it is quite complicated
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bret git add -A
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bret git commit -m 'message'
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bret git push
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bret thats it
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bret ;)
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GWG I just bookmarked a how to
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KartikPrabhu well that's it if you have other stuff done
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aaronpk but then you have to be able to pull it from the server
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bret git pull
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aaronpk and if you don't have shell access you can't
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KartikPrabhu gti clone, git pull blah blah git somethign or other to set remote
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aaronpk like a lot of web hosts
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KartikPrabhu git branch something something
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bret git tickle index
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KartikPrabhu you can get by with 3 commands if everything is already done for you
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bret aaronpk: thats wack... do you know host that provide git shell access?
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lazlazlaz1 There's plenty of graphical tools that help if you don't want to learn the commands
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lazlazlaz1 But there is always more flexibility in learning it
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bret gitx dev is a good way to teach ime
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bret the git graphs are critical
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bret it does not emphasize the index, which is a point of confusion at first
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lazlazlaz1 My favourite git tool is tig, it's a terminal "graphical" representation of the branches/merges etc
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lazlazlaz1 So with IndieAuth you have to use an external service to authenticate, has there been any discussion around that to move away from "walled garden" external services? It came up today at the Indie Tech Summit as part of the idea of the user having the control over their authentication and identity. I'd be interested to hear if anyone has had thoughts regarding this.
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aaronpk lazlazlaz1: there are several options for that
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aaronpk you can use SMS, which while doesn't rely on a web silo still relies on a phone company
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aaronpk there's email which uses persona or your email provider's persona implementation (which can be your own, but nobody has done that)
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GWG aaronpk: Don't forget authentication using your watch
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aaronpk you can (soon) become your own OAuth provider, which takes more work on the server side but then doesn't require any other services to be involved
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aaronpk the simplest one is a GPG key where you link to a public key on your website, then you sign a challenge to sign in
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: what is this own OAuth provider thing?
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aaronpk KartikPrabhu: http://indiewebcamp.com/login-brainstorming
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aaronpk it's not yet implemented on indieauth.com but it's close
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aaronpk but ownyourgram.com and quill.p3k.io use it
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KartikPrabhu neat
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lazlazlaz1 cool
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KartikPrabhu so to do this my server would have to implement code to act as a authorization_endpoint
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aaronpk KartikPrabhu: yep exactly
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aaronpk i already implemented it on aaronparecki.com actually
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KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal: you should look at this ^
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KartikPrabhu !tell snarfed: the twitter.py thing seems to need app-engine for some HTTP_TIMEOUT is that necessary?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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KartikPrabhu tantek: for the hand-written URL use case wouldn't a slug URL be better than an algorithmic short URL?
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bret aaronpk: have you documented the gpg signin option somewhere?
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aaronpk bret: only on http://indieauth.com/gpg
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KartikPrabhu !tell snarfed: that last msg was regarding activitystreams_unofficial
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk i still owe a blog post about that
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aaronpk i should probably just copy that into a blog post on my site
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Loqi it is probable
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Loqi snarfed: KartikPrabhu left you a message 4 hours, 54 minutes ago: kylewm: with posse-post discovery what stops me from getting responses to someone else's tweets? For instance I can put kyle's tweet url as a "u-syndication" on my
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Loqi snarfed: KartikPrabhu left you a message 11 minutes ago: the twitter.py thing seems to need app-engine for some HTTP_TIMEOUT is that necessary?
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Loqi snarfed: KartikPrabhu left you a message 9 minutes ago: that last msg was regarding activitystreams_unofficial
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KartikPrabhu so many messages!
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snarfed lol
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aaronpk today is flying by!
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: HTTP_TIMEOUT comes from an appengine_config.py file, but that shouldn't need app engine itself
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: when you cloned the repo, did you run git submodule update --init --recursive ? details in the README
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KartikPrabhu yes
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KartikPrabhu oh sorry on further inspection... oauth_dropins seems to need google.appengine.api
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snarfed ah, bleh. ok. looking
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snarfed well, some files in both repos will import from that package, but you shouldn't need those files
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snarfed (i think)
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snarfed looking now
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snarfed btw, as for hijacking rel-syndication links, yes, true. that's not bridgy specific though. you can claim syndication to a post that isn't actually yours, true…but you can fabricate arbitrary html on your own site
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snarfed so, i'm not sure of a clear attack vector with that
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KartikPrabhu yes... but bridgy should not be trusting me so blindly then
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snarfed i guess i'm still not sure what the actual attack is
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KartikPrabhu it is not an attack... but I could very well write some inappropriate post and have all of your friends agreeing with me or something...because it looks like they have commented on my site
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snarfed right…but like i said, you don't need any of this to do that, you can just author the html for that by hand :P
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KartikPrabhu but maybe that can be done just by scraping HTML for mf2
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KartikPrabhu yeah maybe
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KartikPrabhu "oauth_dropins/webutil/appengine_config.py" seems to have "from google.appengine.api import app_identity"
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snarfed yes, but it's in a try except, so it should be ok without it
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snarfed are you seeing an exception at module import time?
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KartikPrabhu hmm oh this was on File "twitter.py", line 25, in <module> from appengine_config import HTTP_TIMEOUT
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KartikPrabhu hmm and that one is not in a try except for me!
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KartikPrabhu it seems the sub modules didn't update
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snarfed right, that file is part of the project
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snarfed aha ok
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snarfed git's recursive operations are sometimes flaky for me. try that submodule command inside oauth_dropins
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snarfed …but you will run into one app engine dependency eventually. thinking about that now
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KartikPrabhu ok looking
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KartikPrabhu ok successfulyl update submodules now
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KartikPrabhu seems like I need webob
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: it tells me to install webapp2 isn't that an appengine thing too ?
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snarfed yeah. there are a couple remaining dependencies. that's the easy one, the other is the hard one
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snarfed i'm working on them, but it'll take a while
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snarfed as a temporary workaround, if you download the app engine sdk, you'll be able to use this now, and you can remove it as soon as i push the fixes
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KartikPrabhu aah ok good. I cna wait :) might be more confusing if I attempt installing the app engine sdk :P
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snarfed sorry :/
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KartikPrabhu np! this thing is a huge amount of code, so such things happen
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: is there a reason for converting everything into an activity stream first and then to mf2?
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KartikPrabhu or is that just because it is an AS library?
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snarfed short answer, i discovered AS years and years before i discovered mf2
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snarfed AS is also a bit more expressive when it comes to social specific stuff
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snarfed but meh
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KartikPrabhu sure... just curious :)
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KartikPrabhu in fact might be advatageous as mf2 grows and adds more things to be expressive
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snarfed maybe! migrating would be a big task, and it can already input mf2 and output both AS and mf2, so the common format underneath doesn't really matter too much
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KartikPrabhu agrees
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KartikPrabhu i suppose it is fast enought that FAPP it doesn't matter
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snarfed yup. pretty much none of our applications are cpu bound
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bret lkklk;
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bret oops
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emmak snarfed: how does bridgy elide POSSE'd tweets?
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snarfed emmak: hmm. do you mean, how does it count characters?
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emmak i am looking for the code in your github, but not finding it
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snarfed ah. it's in a submodule, http://github.com/snarfed/activitystreams-unofficial
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snarfed https://github.com/snarfed/activitystreams-unofficial/blob/master/twitter.py#L353
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emmak thanks!
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KartikPrabhu ooo if I get activity streams working I could POSSE my own things :P
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KartikPrabhu is so confused about doing combined streams of post
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KartikPrabhu I want to make a drop down list of links, is it possible to do it without have some onClick JS on the <option> elements?
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: that sounds very 90s :)
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KartikPrabhu I am a 90s kid! ;)
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kylewm i'm pretty sure it has to be JS
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emmak KartikPrabhu: what do you mean by drop down list of links?
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KartikPrabhu the use-case is https://kartikprabhu.com/archive here I want to put all the "years" navigation at the bottom into a menu so it doesn't end up being a long-ass list of years
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KartikPrabhu but then maybe I'll have a long menu list :P
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emmak oh i see, and then when you select a year, it jumps to the url for that?
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KartikPrabhu there has to be a good way to doing this
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KartikPrabhu emmak: yes
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KartikPrabhu that way on touch devices it can also pull up a nice menu like on Android or iOS
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KartikPrabhu with all the native touchy interactions
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emmak yeah, not sure if that's possible without js
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KartikPrabhu hmmm a way out is to do some form+server-side-sccript
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KartikPrabhu those are the options on the internetz searching too
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kylewm can you make a form auto-submit on change, without javascript?
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emmak what is the reason you want to avoid javascript?
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KartikPrabhu I don't think so
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KartikPrabhu emmak: I mostly try to do things without JS if it can be avoided
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KartikPrabhu specially basic intereactions like links
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kylewm so one argument, would be to use JS/CSS to show hide a list of links instead
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: ok, i think activitystreams-unoffiical's app engine deps are gone
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kylewm then if JS is disabled, the links are still intact
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KartikPrabhu yeah
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: you'll want to git submodule update —recursive after you pull
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: cool... i'll try it tonight! thanks for doing this :)
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snarfed np, thanks for using it!
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KartikPrabhu ofcourse! python FTW! :)
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KartikPrabhu emmak kylewm: thanks for the help... will have to think of some other interaction way
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aaronpk i just realized that quill is sending in_reply_to instead of in-reply-to
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aaronpk KartikPrabhu: will I break everything for you if I change it to in-reply-to?
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KartikPrabhu Let me know and I can update that one line too :)
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KartikPrabhu I noticed it and thought it was some form-encoding thing I didn't realise
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aaronpk nope, just an accident
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KartikPrabhu yeah just ping me here and all shall be well :)
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aaronpk cool. probably won't push it out for a while, i'm working on adding syndication buttons to it.
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aaronpk oh dang, and ownyourgram is sending place_name instead of place-name
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KartikPrabhu that might cause more trouble as more people are using it I suppose
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aaronpk yeah
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KartikPrabhu also you might want to check if others are using quill
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aaronpk you're the only one who has used it in the past week besides me
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: I want to show a "via quill" on my notes. Is there a sane "field name" such things?
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KartikPrabhu "client" ?
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aaronpk i've been using the value of the client_id field
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aaronpk cause it's a URL
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KartikPrabhu also should that be a "client-id" ? :P
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aaronpk if you don't want to just show "via quill.p3k.io" then I should add an h-card to the site so you can get the name from there
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aaronpk the client_id comes from the token info, not from the micropub post request
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KartikPrabhu I am good with just URL name
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KartikPrabhu aah i see
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aaronpk of course the other option here is since everyone's clients are already using the underscore version, just stick with that an update the /micropub page
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KartikPrabhu yeah. depends on conformance with mf2 or having uniform naming conventions for all fields in micropub request
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aaronpk yeah the hyphen is probably better cause there's no transformation needed from the microformats field to the micropub field
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KartikPrabhu is frustrated with no good way to count posts by year in Django
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KartikPrabhu moves to working on reposts and likes
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KartikPrabhu is it worth bothering with a single note being in-reply-to=URL1 *and* repost-of=URL2 ?
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aaronpk uhh
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aaronpk if it's a repost, then it can't be anything except that I think
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aaronpk otherwise it's not a repost
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KartikPrabhu hmm true... will do the simplest thing to start off :)
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KartikPrabhu #don'toverthinkit #DOTI
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KartikPrabhu what is the wiki page with a list of note types i.e. reply, repost, like...
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KartikPrabhu aaha http://indiewebcamp.com/responses :)
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KartikPrabhu I'm trying to copy my old retweets from twitter to own site. anyone know how to get the time I retweeted something? the tweet-id is in data-my-retweet-id but no date/time
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KartikPrabhu twitter-- also the "download you archive" link does nothing on FF !
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Loqi twitter has -4 karma
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KartikPrabhu ok swtiched to G+ and now first repost imported: https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/brianwebb-window-look violating some indieweb consensus by adding own commentary to a "repost" but that's how G+ does it
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JonathanNeal Hey KartikPrabhu, how goes it?
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KartikPrabhu it goes sort of well sort of not... Django is being stubborn :P
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KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal: did you see aaronpk's attempt to have own site authorization/login?
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JonathanNeal link?
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KartikPrabhu wait looking
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KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal: http://indiewebcamp.com/login-brainstorming
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JonathanNeal I like it.
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aaronpk JonathanNeal: it's implemented at ownyourgram.com and quill.p3k.io right now, in the process of adding it to indieauth.com
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KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal: yes. sounds very similar to your attempts
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: wait so if i have my own auth stuff setup I can use it on quill?
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aaronpk yep!
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aaronpk quill requires you to set an authorization_endpoint
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KartikPrabhu damn it my itch list is getting longer :P
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aaronpk quill doesn't implement relmeauth at all
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KartikPrabhu so instead of pointing to IndieAuth I just point to my own thing
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aaronpk yep
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KartikPrabhu sweet!
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JonathanNeal One big difference I had was that I wanted each domain to host what-you-are-calling an authorization endpoint.
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aaronpk JonathanNeal: why require that?
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JonathanNeal Then, entering the domain dictates where the request is sent.
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aaronpk in this model it's definitely supported
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KartikPrabhu yeah now that is optional. you could use Twitter or your own site
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aaronpk it's just not required, so that it's easier to bootstrap
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tommorris just signed into indieauth with GPG
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aaronpk tommorris++
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Loqi tommorris has 27 karma
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JonathanNeal yea, I think it is, you could not include the rel and let the form or site respond directly to the domain.
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JonathanNeal aaronpk: agreed it’s much easier to bootstrap.
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KartikPrabhu woohoo convergence :P
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tommorris aaronpk: I was discussing making an IndieAuth browser plugin for Firefox to make the UX of using IndieAuth simpler. Was wondering if you’d be willing to drop a classname on the indieauth forms so that the form could be replaced with a button that just says “sign in with [your domain]”
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tommorris all the plugin would do is look for that classname and replace the whole form with a simple one-click sign in. It’d just pre-fill the domain with your domain
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aaronpk tommorris: ooh like pre-filling (and auto-submitting?) the web sign-in form?
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tommorris yeah, not so much auto-submitting
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aaronpk that's a cool idea
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tommorris but just if you have the plugin installed, it’d auto-replace the login form with a button
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aaronpk yeah i'd be happy to do that! that's awesome.
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tommorris the button would just be “Sign in with aaronpk.com” or “Sign in with tommorris.org” - and underneath a little link that said “Sign in with another domain” that would un-hide the original form
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aaronpk nice!
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tommorris I don’t know of a good class name. Something like “indieauth-form”. ;-)
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tommorris (Strangely, ARIA doesn’t have a login or signin role.)
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JonathanNeal KartikPrabhu: this is sounding a lot more like what we were doodling with now, cool.
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KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal: yeah pretty much. i knew aaronpk was cooking something like this
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JonathanNeal tommorris, KartikPrabhu: In that case, I suggest data-[PROTOCOL]="[FEATURE]:[OPTIONS]"
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JonathanNeal So, in your case, that might be data-indieauth="login"
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KartikPrabhu more data-s
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JonathanNeal Yes, it’s more extendable. Any supportive JS could start like this https://gist.github.com/jonathantneal/a82600f12804589c0f0b
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KartikPrabhu is pretty ignorant about how to best defin protocols, so leaves it to you folk to figure this cool stuff out
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aaronpk I'm still somewhat ignorant about the data-* attributes.
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aaronpk I heard something about how they are only supposed to be used for in-page consumption, and should not be used by external parsers. that's why microformats2 doesn't use them.
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aaronpk so i'm not sure where browser extensions fall within that spectrum
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: I have used them to store data that some JS can use
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KartikPrabhu but nothign beyond that
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aaronpk yeah that is the intent of it I thought
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JonathanNeal data- was made for frameworks
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JonathanNeal > Custom data attributes are intended to store custom data private to the page or application, for which there are no more appropriate attributes or elements.
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aaronpk JonathanNeal: sweet. citation?
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JonathanNeal http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/elements.html#custom-data-attribute
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aaronpk thx
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KartikPrabhu should sleep.
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KartikPrabhu alright... will add self-authorization to my itch-list tomorrow
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aaronpk me too
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KartikPrabhu night!
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@DaveCZombie RT @dajbelshaw: Jeremy Keith talking about Indie Web and POSSE at #indieweb https://twitter.com/dajbelshaw/status/485021502019211264/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/485712266781028353)
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tommorris aaronpk: data- attributes are awesome. use them a lot at work.
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bnvk tommorris: where's the rel="pgpkey" on your site?
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bnvk n/m
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tommorris bnvk: in the head. now works
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tommorris I put rel=“pubkey” yesterday rahter than rel=“pgpkey”. changed it to pgpkey. now works.
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bnvk ah
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bnvk ok. I didn't know it worked as a <link> tag
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bnvk was gonna suggest changing that
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tommorris the documentation on indieauth suggests link
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tommorris but it probably ought to be an <a> on the page somewhere because visible-metadata. ;)
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bnvk tommorris: also, yah
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bnvk oops, yah, it probably should be visible old schoolers who look for mentions of PGP keys
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tommorris Am tempted to go through the indieauth docs and fix stuff like that
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bnvk also, you might want to rename it to key.asc instead key.pgp as some clients (like my Mac GPG Tools) shit the bed and won't import the other extension
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tommorris Handy.
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bnvk friggin PGP
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bnvk files a bug on GPG tools site...
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tommorris If there’s a GPG contingent in IWC, we ought to have key-signing at future IWC events btw
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tommorris I did check to make sure it was being served as text/plain by Rails
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bnvk yep
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bnvk oh, that's the other thing, my browser downloaded it by default
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tommorris mine too.
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bnvk usually keys don't do that
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bnvk https://brennannovak.com/uploads/security/brennan-novak-public-key.asc
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tommorris probably some download intent stuff. donpdonp’s one does the same in my FF
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bnvk yah
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tommorris a nice little job for today: rewriting the JS on my site to drastically reduce the size
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bnvk nice
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tommorris 308KB of JS is too much.
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tommorris Lots of that is jQuery which can be stripped out and replaced with just using the DOM.
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tommorris 308KB of JS for 28KB of HTML. Insanity.
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bnvk lol
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bnvk you could also use Zepto
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bnvk and still have your codes look nicer than straight DOM JS
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tommorris Will have a look.
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tommorris 9.2KB of minified JS. Nice.
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bnvk ya
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tommorris I had a shock at work recently when I saw that one of our Facebook apps downloads 4Mb of data to run.
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bnvk JS data?
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tommorris Lots of imagery, lots of JS.
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tommorris Sega Genesis game cartridges each had 256KB to 4MB of storage.
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tommorris Complete video games from the 1990s were smaller in size than some of today’s web apps. (And more enjoyable to use.)
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bnvk lol
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bnvk that's a fascinating comparison
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@brennannovak @JanetGunter very nice post. Reminds me of a lot of the aspects I've seen / experienced from the @IndieWebCamp community! (twitter.com/_/status/485734753933340673)
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tommorris decides to give that comparison a permaurl
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bnvk tommorris: do it!
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tommorris bnvk: http://tommorris.org/posts/9026
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bnvk nice
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bnvk tommorris: it interesting to consider the environmental impact of all that
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tommorris anyway, I need to disappear off into London and get things done.
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bnvk I've long thought "why the hell isn't jQuery and large common libs not bundled in browsers and accessed via <script local="jquery" version="2.1" src="http://domain…">
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tommorris that’d be sensible
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bnvk some smarty pants "optimization" guru dude from Google once explained why it's not good
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bnvk his reasoning made sense, but was so technical and convoluted I forgot the reasoning
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bnvk anyway, really cool hanging out man, have a good trip back to LDN
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tommorris oh got to london last night
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tommorris left at 11:37, got home at 3am.
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tommorris British trains suck
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@JanetGunter Learning more about #indieweb and trying to sort out how much time it will take me to go "indie" (twitter.com/_/status/485738488504270848)
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@paul_tibbetts RT @kevinmarks: "you're not going to email yourself into building a website" - @t https://www.youtube.com/ #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/485740872190148608)
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@MGraybosch I can't attend @indiewebcamp, but I love the idea. I think corps like Google, Facebook, Twitter, etc. make the Web suck for everyone else. (twitter.com/_/status/485748186154160130)
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@JanetGunter @brian_condon Thank you. After hearing more about #indieweb though, I wonder if Storify is merely a silo of a silo…? (twitter.com/_/status/485753492263682048)
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@brian_condon Yes - know what you mean @JanetGunter - just been following your conversation re #indieweb hmm and remembering Posterous :( (twitter.com/_/status/485753947177897984)
jonnybarnes, pbeaulieu, pfefferle, crystal, glennjones, chloeweil, dysfun, chrissaad, cweiske and indie-visitor joined the channel
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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rascul better to show post datetimes in timezone it was posted from or utc?
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rascul or use some javascript to adjust to timezone the person viewing the post is in?
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rascul i'm happy with any of those but i don't know what would be better for others
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rascul hrm or maybe a floating datetime /datetime#no_timezone
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rascul floating could get weird though i think
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pdurbin utc is fine for me but I'm not picky
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pdurbin rascul: is your thing open source?
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rascul yes http://git.rascul.io/crash/crash
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pdurbin nice. python. and it supports various indieweb things?
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@jalbertbowdenii posse Publish Own Site, Syndicate Elsewhere http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE my posse's on broadway https://www.youtube.com/ #indieweb #openweb (twitter.com/_/status/485814150564937729)
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rascul yes, more and more as i get farther and farther
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pdurbin rascul: cool. maybe list them in your readme
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rascul one day i'll make a readme worth reading :)
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rascul for now though i have https://rascul.io/credits
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rascul oh i should list microformats2 in there
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pdurbin oh I see, they are listed here: https://rascul.io/indieweb
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rascul oh i forgot about that page
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@jdp23 . @danhind have you been following the #indieweb movement? it's very much along the lines of what you're talking about (twitter.com/_/status/485819371973914624)
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brennannovak.com edited /store (+0) "/* Platforms */" (view diff)
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@jdp23 @danhind yes, great insight on the natural alliance with the cooperative sector @coopnews @CooperativesUK #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/485823033433526273)
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indie-visitor Hello to all.
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tommorris hey indie-visitor
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indie-visitor not much to say, new here
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GWG Anyone about?
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rascul i am here
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GWG I'm looking at finishing up my new design.
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GWG Do you have any sites you know of with interesting multi-column layouts?
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rascul no, not off the top of my head
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dariusdunlap It’s hard to do without things looking cluttered
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rascul often what i'll do though is look through various sites such as http://oswd.org to get ideas
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GWG rascul: That is what I'm looking for...sites to get ideas
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GWG I had played with a design that had the first few things full width and then the older stuff half or quarter width
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dariusdunlap I know it’s “the thing” these days, but I do like the resutls from Bootstrap. Using it right now in a couple projects.
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GWG dariusdunlap: I don't mind being part of a crowd.
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dariusdunlap Bootstrap makes it real easy to get that multi-column look, including some nice flourishes like circl-shaped images for topic headers in the narrow columns. Here’s something I’ve been fiddling with, just to see what’s possible: https://dunlaps.net
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GWG dariusdunlap: I'm actually using it. But I'm trying to get ideas beyond the traditional...full-length post model
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dariusdunlap What are you thinking about? Link-Lists? I’m curious, because I’ve been musing about the best way to present POSSE’d material… likes, comments, reshares, etc.
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GWG Many sites have a combination of views.
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@benwerd My #indieweb life: how my site gives me an awesome social media archive of everything I've ever written http://werd.io/2014/my-indieweb-life-how-my-site-gives-me-an-awesome (twitter.com/_/status/485835240980496386)
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Loqi [mention] http://werd.io/2014/my-indieweb-life-how-my-site-gives-me-an-awesome linked to http://indiewebcamp.com (webmention)
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GWG I want the detail on the front page to decrease proportional to the age and possibly the content type.
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Loqi gives GWG the detail on the front page to decrease proportional to the age and possibly the content type
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GWG Loqi, hush
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Loqi dude
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GWG Don't Dude me, Loqi
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@ananelson RT @benwerd: My #indieweb life: how my site gives me an awesome social media archive of everything I've ever written http://werd.io/2014/my-indieweb-life-how-my-site-gives-me-an-awesome (twitter.com/_/status/485836021947305985)
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@neilcford Looking for a #indieweb platform that isn’t written in php. Anyone got any recommendations? #indietech #indie2014 #indiewebcamp (twitter.com/_/status/485836781846552576)
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GWG dariusdunlap: This is the test site I'm working on for a minimally styled starter theme. http://tiny.n9n.us/
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@benwerd RT @kevinmarks: “Facebook is about milieu control” @outwardfacing makes a clear argument for the #indieweb https://medium.com/the-archipelago/i-left-facebook-and-you-can-too-1e9a1886c4e4 (twitter.com/_/status/485838836623097857)
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dariusdunlap ok… I kinda see where you’re goin’ with that.
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GWG dariusdunlap: Where?
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GWG dariusdunlap: I'm always curious for outside perspective
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dariusdunlap Just with the general concept of dimishing size representing age… it’s a nice design idea, if you can pull it off. :-)
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GWG dariusdunlap: I didn't do that.
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GWG The only font change is that articles have a smaller size than other post types
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dariusdunlap Ah, your saying “detail”, as in the degree of excerpt or something. I was reading that in the context of the multi-column idea and thinking “size”, as in column width. Although I suppose they kinda go hand-in-hand.
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dariusdunlap your-you’re
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aaronpk good morning indiewebcamp!
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pdurbin dariusdunlap: I think Loqi does some nicee substituting
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Loqi dude
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pdurbin s/nicee/nice/
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Loqi pdurbin meant to say: dariusdunlap: I think Loqi does some nice substituting
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pdurbin :(
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pdurbin maybe only for aaronpk :)
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GWG dariusdunlap: I think I need better test content
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aaronpk pdurbin: don't you still have Loqi on /ignore?
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pdurbin whoops! I had un-ignored. lemme go fix
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pdurbin aaronpk: I shoulda checked the log before writing that :( ... all set now :)
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aaronpk :)
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@zoestagg RT @benwerd: My #indieweb life: how my site gives me an awesome social media archive of everything I've ever written http://werd.io/2014/my-indieweb-life-how-my-site-gives-me-an-awesome (twitter.com/_/status/485849824240336896)
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@search8engine RT @benwerd: My #indieweb life: how my site gives me an awesome social media archive of everything I've ever written http://werd.io/2014/my-indieweb-life-how-my-site-gives-me-an-awesome (twitter.com/_/status/485851256577990656)
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@Stolen_Souls RT @benwerd: My #indieweb life: how my site gives me an awesome social media archive of everything I've ever written http://werd.io/2014/my-indieweb-life-how-my-site-gives-me-an-awesome (twitter.com/_/status/485853073588645888)
chrissaad, crystal and wolftune joined the channel
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@ControlSinatra RT @t: Thanks @mrflix for figuring out CSS for an #indieweb People Focused Mobile Communication! Screenshot & source: http://tantek.com/2014/180/t2/css-indieweb-people-focused-communication (twitter.com/_/status/485860426887204864)
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JonathanNeal `tell KartikPrabhu, wrote down some of my thoughts on IndieJS https://gist.github.com/jonathantneal/5a17003e8c64377d86da
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rascul you typoed the !tell
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dariusdunlap yeah, pdurbin, I forget about that substitution.
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@iNavegar My #indieweb life: how my site gives me an awesome social media archive of everything I've ever written http://werd.io/2014/my-indieweb-life-how-my-site-gives-me-an-awesome (twitter.com/_/status/485867823739453440)
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@hmans @neilcford #pants is very very very early stage. Webmention integration likely. (twitter.com/_/status/485868274962661377)
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@ihatemornings RT @kevinmarks: “Facebook is about milieu control” @outwardfacing makes a clear argument for the #indieweb https://medium.com/the-archipelago/i-left-facebook-and-you-can-too-1e9a1886c4e4 (twitter.com/_/status/485879510756524032)
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@cstanhope RT @benwerd: My #indieweb life: how my site gives me an awesome social media archive of everything I've ever written http://werd.io/2014/my-indieweb-life-how-my-site-gives-me-an-awesome (twitter.com/_/status/485880111468523520)
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KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal: I am bit confused by your IndieJS example. Is the idea that instead of a browser plugin I host a JS on my site whose address is stored on a cookie. Then the log in site reads the cookie and loads the JS to do stuff. For instance, auto-filling my domain name in IndieAuth ?
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KartikPrabhu is https://dev.twitter.com/docs broken for anyone else? can't sign it at all!
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KartikPrabhu twitter--
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Loqi twitter has -5 karma
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KartikPrabhu goes back to working on marginalia
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GWG Hi, KartikPrabhu
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KartikPrabhu hi
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: twitter docs are working for me
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: sorry wrong link this one: https://apps.twitter.com/
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kylewm yep
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kylewm that too
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KartikPrabhu so you can sign in?
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kylewm i was already signed in, but i logged out and back in just now
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kylewm and it worked
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KartikPrabhu oh well poo
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kylewm still trying to do activitystreams stuff?
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KartikPrabhu yeah and I need auth key and all that
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KartikPrabhu trying on Chrome
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KartikPrabhu ha! seriously... the sign in does not work on FF
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KartikPrabhu WTF twitter
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aaronpk I've been hearing about redirect loop issues trying to sign in to other sites with firefox lately too...
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KartikPrabhu so it is a FF problem you think?
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aaronpk not sure, I haven't tried it myself yet
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KartikPrabhu hmmm blergh... goes back to marginalia
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GWG I need some brains.
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GWG What good elements do people put in footers?
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GWG I feel my footer lacks feet
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KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal: was fragmention.js updated with the the exposed get element by text method?
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KartikPrabhu GWG: i have feed links and author credit
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KartikPrabhu maybe license info
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kylewm GWG: I like having <a rel=webmention> in the footer
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GWG Some people seem to duplicate their top menu
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KartikPrabhu i don't have a top menu
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GWG KartikPrabhu: I know
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GWG Some people have a bottom menu but no top
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GWG I've been trying to find sites to inspire me about that and decide if I want to try a more magazine style front page layout
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KartikPrabhu what is a magazine-style layout?
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GWG A blog style layout is a single column in reverse date order, newest first.
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GWG A magazine style layout is multi-column.
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rascul mine is called a two column layout i think?
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GWG rascul: It has two columns
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GWG But, a multicolumn layout would be interesting for notes.
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KartikPrabhu I don't understand classification of blog/magazine by layout <shrugs>
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rascul what is an example of a magazine layout?
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GWG KartikPrabhu: Blog 'Style' and Magazine 'Style'
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KartikPrabhu GWG: careful... sense of time is lost in multi-column layouts
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rascul yeah my two column layout can make chronology hard
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GWG http://docs.headwaythemes.com/article/102-creating-a-magazine-style-layout
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rascul especially if i get a bunch of tall boxes on one side and short ones on the other
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KartikPrabhu also all elements in the column need to be of the same height
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KartikPrabhu rascul: yeah exactly
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rascul mine is in such a way so that the left and right cells aren't required to line up with each other
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GWG KartikPrabhu: What if, for example, I want to separate articles, notes, photos, etc...
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GWG There are options
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rascul separate columns for notes, photos, etc?
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KartikPrabhu separate in what sense?
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GWG Well, there are a lot of senses
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KartikPrabhu but what is the one you want to do/make on your homepage.?
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GWG KartikPrabhu: I'm thinking about a lot of ones.
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KartikPrabhu GWG: pick one and see if multi-column actually helps you do it
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GWG For example, articles tend to be driven down by Notes
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GWG KartikPrabhu: I'm in the planning stages right now
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rascul http://smashingmagazine.com has lots of good web design stuff
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rascul articles about designs and how to do them
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GWG rascul: Been there
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GWG KartikPrabhu: I had this idea of separating the articles and the notes, as the frequency of notes will be more than articles
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KartikPrabhu yeah that is a good idea... and multi-column might help. but also think of small-screens
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rascul multi column is maybe not so good on small screens
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GWG KartikPrabhu: I've done it before. On a small screen, the column wraps itself to single width again
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rascul try looking at rascul.io with small screen it's not fun
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GWG rascul: Your layout should be responsive and go single column on a smaller screen to solve that
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KartikPrabhu so small screens get one-column. then why is there a need for large screens to have multi-column?
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GWG Currently, on my site, the sidebar goes below the content.
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rascul GWG it will be but i got tired of playing with the css for my site
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rascul i'll get back to it in due time
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GWG KartikPrabhu: Why not be aware of screen size and address it?
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KartikPrabhu what is it addressing by going multi-column?
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GWG Why should your site not take advantage of real estate?
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GWG KartikPrabhu: Explain the G+ layout to me?
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rascul i don't like when sites only use about 1/3 of the screen width
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KartikPrabhu GWG I don't like the G+ layout
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GWG I don't either
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rascul it's kinda like mine but three columns it gets too crazy
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KartikPrabhu my point is don't try to fill up space because space exists. there should be some better reason, more reader-centric
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GWG I have a site I did where I have full width for the latest few articles and below it, just the titles and the image, if one exists
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GWG So, a single page can show more older stories to click to
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KartikPrabhu it could do that in a single column too
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GWG KartikPrabhu: It can. And it might.
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KartikPrabhu in any case... you should feel free to experiment regardless of my biased views
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GWG But I want to figure that out
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GWG KartikPrabhu: I'm in the...what do I want to try stage of that
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GWG But, look at this...
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GWG http://tiny.n9n.us/
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GWG Without the grey boxes, those notes are tiny in terms of vertical space taken up
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GWG Which would be a traditional note
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KartikPrabhu your main column is too wide for the text that's why
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GWG KartikPrabhu: It is relative
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GWG If you have a small screen, it isn't
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KartikPrabhu GWG: yes. that's where responsive comes in
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KartikPrabhu also your site need not always expand to fill up the full width of the screen. Margins are your friends
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GWG I have a tiny one
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GWG I'm not sure what a margin would do though
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KartikPrabhu GWG: your site looks good on moderate sized screens. on large ones it is trying too hard to fill up the space. the main column becomes too wide for its text
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GWG How large is large?
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KartikPrabhu mine is 1600x900
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GWG Hmm...
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GWG You mean like that?
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rascul firefox web developer tools have a responsive design mode tool that makes it easy to see at different resolutions
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GWG Better?
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KartikPrabhu yeah that looks much better on really wide-screens, you might want to play with proportions a bit
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rascul agrees with KartikPrabhu
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GWG I switched from a fluid to fixed container
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rascul looks better when it doesn't try to take whole screen
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KartikPrabhu GWG: fluid is not always the best option... you don't always want to take up full width of screen estate
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GWG I think I'm moving toward completion of this starter theme
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GWG The Mf2 markup is correct, I think
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GWG There...better
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GWG Big header, smaller content window
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GWG I think the effect is better now with a picture
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GWG I wonder if I should figure out the two grey boxes, which are my two optional widgetized h-card positions
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@Laksman_Sumano The alternative #Web ~> http://indiewebcamp.com/ (twitter.com/_/status/485919029723291648)
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@enriquereyes RT @Laksman_Sumano: The alternative #Web ~> http://indiewebcamp.com/ (twitter.com/_/status/485920176747995136)
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@nachopavon RT @benwerd: My #indieweb life: how my site gives me an awesome social media archive of everything I've ever written http://werd.io/2014/my-indieweb-life-how-my-site-gives-me-an-awesome (twitter.com/_/status/485923205769863168)
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aaronpk considering automatically dropping my permashortlink from my tweets if I'm also including another URL in the tweet, so that twitter embeds the twitter card for the other link
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GWG aaronpk: What do you do with the shortlinks considering Twitter rewrites them?
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GWG That has been my issue
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aaronpk what do you mean?
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GWG Whenever I post a URL to twitter, it turns it into a t.co shortlink
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GWG I'm still trying to figure out why...if they keep rewriting my URLs, why I should to.
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GWG What the advantage is
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aaronpk well I like sending short links for the citation because twitter displays whatever you send them. my normal domain is so long that twitter displays it with ... at the end
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aaronpk so it's more for the human-readable aspect than anything
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GWG So...display purposes only?
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aaronpk if my main domain were short then it wouldn't really matter
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GWG Too late for both of us on that part
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aaronpk although...
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aaronpk I do occasionally post the full URL to twitter if I'm manually POSSEing an article to twitter
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aaronpk because in that case I want the full URL to appear on twitter so that people know it's a real post, not just a POSSE copy of a short note
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Loqi gives aaronpk the full URL to appear on twitter so that people know it
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aaronpk tantek.com is pretty short, and I would do the same with tantek.com vs ttk.me
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aaronpk e.g. tantek.com when sharing full articles, ttk.me when the content is a copy
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aaronpk s/copy/full copy/
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Loqi aaronpk meant to say: e.g. tantek.com when sharing full articles, ttk.me when the content is a full copy
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GWG I can't get Twitter POSSE to work the way I want it
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GWG It never seems to get it right
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snarfed aaronpk, GWG: just as a data point, i've come full circle w/dropping self links from my tweets too. i only include them now if there's substantial additional content
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snarfed one reason was noise and confusing UX, another was including the other link's card (if any) like aaronpk
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KartikPrabhu I have been doing the same. no backlink if it is a complete copy. backlink if it is modified or truncated. And for that purpose my long permalinks seems to be working fine
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aaronpk i think i'm going to switch to that
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: there is still the concern that the POSSE copy then has no connection back to the original
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aaronpk yeah, not ideal, but it's really a limitation of twitter
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aaronpk cause with facebook I get the "See Original" links on all the posts