#indiewebcamp 2014-07-09

2014-07-09 UTC
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gregorlove.com edited /User:Gregorlove.com (+293) "/* Interests */" (view diff)
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KevinMarks is reading logs (I haven't been on for a bit, sorry)
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gregorlove.com edited /User:Gregorlove.com (+20) "/* Introduction */" (view diff)
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KevinMarks tell KartikPrabhu, shaners one name for the [Twitter for iOS] thing that twitter calls 'source' would be Activity Streams (and Atom's) 'generator' - so <span class="p-as-generator">Twitter for iOS</span>
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tantek KevinMarks, you want !tell
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KevinMarks !tell KartikPrabhu, shaners one name for the [Twitter for iOS] thing that twitter calls 'source' would be Activity Streams (and Atom's) 'generator' - so <span class="p-as-generator">Twitter for iOS</span>
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek and I think "generator" is an old blogging convention
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tantek adopted into Atom, and thus AS
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KevinMarks yes, I think so
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tantek meta generator or something like that
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tantek but always invisible - not a user thing
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gregorlove.com edited /User:Gregorlove.com (+0) "/* Introduction */" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /User:Gregorlove.com (+201) "/* Interests */" (view diff)
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KevinMarks in today's "silos behaving badly" https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/486657983934631936
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@kevinmarks also, when did @twitter start being douchy about pictures being shared to facebook? https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/486657983934631936/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/486657983934631936)
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tantek KevinMarks: silos spamming each other's proprietary invisible metacrap standards? surprise surprise
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tantek nice of them to make the point for us
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tantek welcome back crystal_ !
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KevinMarks I think it's the Twitter app on facebook doing it, as it's an HTML element, not a bitmap
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tantek so /Twitter spams /OGP
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gregorlove.com edited /https (+55) "/* Level 3 security */" (view diff)
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tantek congrats gRegor` on deploying /https level 3 support on your site!
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gRegor` Woot. Thanks. :)
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gregorlove.com edited /https (+1) "/* Level 3 security */" (view diff)
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KevinMarks no, no OG on twitter, this is https://apps.facebook.com/twitter/
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tantek this is something I really appreciate about this community - people are continuously deploying *visible* updates to their websites at *usable* public URLs, *AND* documenting their examples of doing so on the wiki for others to easily discover
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aaronpk KevinMarks: are you talking about the generic text that ended up on facebook?
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tantek s/updates/updates and feature improvements/
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Loqi tantek meant to say: this is something I really appreciate about this community - people are continuously deploying *visible* updates and feature improvements to their websites at *usable* public URLs, *AND* documenting their examples of doing so on the wiki for others to easily discover
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tantek in stark contrast to communities that spend most of their time on mailing lists, or writing press release blog posts.
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tantek it's so refreshing
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aaronpk indiewebcamp++
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Loqi indiewebcamp has 1 karma
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KevinMarks aaronpk: instead of posting the image in the tweet, the twitter app cropped it to be useless and put a message on top saying "see the full picture"
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KevinMarks (It's a bit confusing as they are both screengrabs)
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tantek perhaps some day we'll start doing that to silos
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tantek "see the full picture - on my own site"
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aaronpk KevinMarks: weird!! yeah searching the source of the tweet URL doesn't have the text "see the full picture..."
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KevinMarks well, given that they often arbitrarily crop images too, that may be needed
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KevinMarks twitter shows a weird 'widescreen' crop
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aaronpk facebook crops everything to a square tho too
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KevinMarks is there a good page to doc this?
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tantek.com edited /Twitter (+97) "/* Issues */ split into Criticism vs. Issues (brief explanation of each)" (view diff)
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tantek KevinMarks: add a new subsection to http://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#Criticism
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tantek or if you think it's something they can fix, then instead add a new subsection to http://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#Issues
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rascul.io edited /https (+132) "/* Level 5 security */ add me" (view diff)
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rascul i have the best scores on ssllabs out of the level 5 examples :)
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tantek rascul++ for achieving /https level 5!
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Loqi rascul has 8 karma
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kylewm KevinMarks: silo inception ... i can't tell where one silo ends and the next begins
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gRegor` KartikPrabhu: The Living Room isn't available for 7/16
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gRegor` there's a one-off event. Should be available for 7/30, though.
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KevinMarks well, it was a screenshot of a screenshot
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KevinMarks hm, they don't seem to do it with all images
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KevinMarks BTW, did you see https://medium.com/prezi-engineering/how-and-why-prezi-turned-to-javascript-56e0ca57d135 - very weird that they blow off SVG
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@withknown Here's how Known makes it easy to publish content on your own site & share it across all your networks: http://werd.io/2014/my-indieweb-life-how-my-site-gives-me-an-awesome (twitter.com/_/status/486670704364883969)
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emmak snarfed: does bridgy posse photos to twitter?
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gregorlove.com edited /https (+127) "/* How to */" (view diff)
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snarfed emmak: sadly no, not yet, but i'd love to have that eventually
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snarfed should be pretty straightforward
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snarfed https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/85
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snarfed emmak: any interest in tackling it?
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emmak i can take a look. would that be implemented in activitystreams or bridgy?
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snarfed activitystreams. posting details to that issue now
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emmak also i just realized its not clear whether u-photo should be a child of h-entry or e-content
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emmak it looks like in practice people are putting it in e-content
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tantek emmak - doesn't matter
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tantek properties (whether p-* dt-* u-* or e-* ) all apply to their containing object (h-*)
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tantek doesn't matter from a microformats perspective that is
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tantek however, semantically, the photo *is* (or is a part of) the content, so it makes sense for it to be inside.
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emmak tantek: thanks for clearing that up!
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kylewm with Facebook, you have the option of creating a photo post, or linking to the original and specify the image to use for a preview
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tantek no problem emmak! now I'm wondering where I could document that answer so it's discoverable on the wiki...
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kylewm (the former looks much better IMO)
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kevinmarks.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:fbupcomingclone.png]]""
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tantek.com edited /photos (+414) "/* Silos */ add Facebook subsection with details from kylewm from /irc" (view diff)
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tantek kylewm - captured: https://indiewebcamp.com/photos#Facebook - feel free to expand, add screenshots etc.
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tantek.com edited /photos (+28) "/* Facebook */ missed some text" (view diff)
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kevinmarks.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:fbupcomingclone0.png]]""
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kylewm.com uploaded /File:facebook-post-with-preview-image.png "example of a facebook post with a preview image (as opposed to a photo post)"
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kylewm.com edited /photos (+92) "/* Facebook */ added preview screenshot" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /Events (-1) "/* Upcoming */ s/Meeting/Meetup/" (view diff)
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KevinMarks how do I make an uploaded image fit-width on the wiki?
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kylewm.com edited /photos (+89) "/* Facebook */ note that "See Original" does not work on photos" (view diff)
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tantek KevinMarks: style="max-width:100%"
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KevinMarks ah, I was trying [[File:fbupcomingclone0.png|100%]]
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gRegor` This is minor, but maybe worth fixing for consistent url-casing? http://indiewebcamp.com/Events is the main events page, but individual events (all?) use lowercase "events", e.g. http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-07-16-homebrew-website-club
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gRegor` I suppose it's just aesthetic. /events redirects, of course.
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tantek gRegor`: it's deliberate - only way I could figure out to distinguish generic (lowercase) vs. specific (uppercase)
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tantek if you have a suggested improvement - open to it!
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kylewm similar to /IRC /irc/today
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tantek yeah
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gRegor` Not sure what you mean by distinguishing?
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tantek the generic term "event" meaning event post
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tantek vs. IndieWebCamp Events
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tantek what is an event?
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Loqi An event is a type of post that in addition to a post name (event title) has a start datetime (likely end datetime), and a location http://indiewebcamp.com/event
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gRegor` I'm referring to /events, not /event
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gRegor` Proposing /Events redirect to /events instead of vice versa
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tantek ah - right - I think the plural was another axis of distinction
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gRegor` /event is linked as a disambig on /events, though, too :)
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tantek and then using the capitalized form as canonical for the top level page to make it look that much different than /event
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gRegor` Ah
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tantek that's a deliberate usability / readability / scannability design decision
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tantek also capital implies specific, proper noun
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tantek capitalized*
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tantek so the meaning is somewhat intuitively discoverable
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rascul E is harder to type!
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gRegor` The list of /Events is a proper noun?
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rascul although typing difficulty isn't a very strong argument here heh
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gRegor` You don't have to type the capital E, because of the redirect. :)
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tantek rascul - your browser doesn't autocomplete from your history?
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tantek or just click the "Calendar" sidebar link from the home page :)
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rascul it does
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gRegor` I think /irc/today is a special case, since it's not a wiki page
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rascul /irc/today should note the timezone somewhere
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tantek gRegor`: /events/YYYY-MM-DD-* would ideally *also* not be a wiki page but rather an Indie Event post itself that you could Indie RSVP to
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tantek perhaps not *just* be a wiki page
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gRegor` True...
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gRegor` Further abstracting, /Events could just aggregate those posts, too.
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gRegor` But I'm not understanding why they're capitalized differently in the meantime.
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rascul am i counting right? looks like 11 people signed up but capacity section notes 10 http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/Cambridge/Guest_List
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gRegor` Good idea on tz, rascul
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rascul either note the timezone or use utc i say
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kevinmarks.com edited /Twitter (+648) "/* Criticism */ bad PESATAs to Facebook" (view diff)
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rascul aaronpk does the logs? i'll mention it to him when i see him
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tantek that's just cross-posting - you're not PESETASing (not *everything*) really KevinMarks :)
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tantek.com edited /Twitter (+340) "/* bad PESETAS to facebook */ more like spammy cross-posting, describe why per deliberate Twitter wording" (view diff)
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tantek !tell aaronpk, caseoganic, benwerd, evanpro, crystal_ for those of you going to YaYY - I just added a "Website Club!" session to the session ideas wiki page they have: https://yxyy.hackpad.com/Session-Ideas-aZ5THxkaIRY - add yourself in the 5th column if you're interested!
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek !tell aaronpk, caseorganic, benwerd, evanpro I made a separate page on their wiki for it as well: https://yxyy.hackpad.com/Website-Club-Dbuwkvyhps7
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek.com edited /Events (+1000) "add HWC 07-30" (view diff)
lukebrooker, addal, chrissaad, j12t, snarfed, crystal_, tantek, KevinMarks2 and wolftune joined the channel
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JonathanNeal What’s new in IndieWeb?
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@anomalily Alright, I’ve jumped into the wild world of @bmndr now after seeing it at #indiewebcamp. But I’m starting small with @duolingo only. (twitter.com/_/status/486719974287749120)
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@69_63 RT @adactio: Writing code to POSSE my photos to Flickr. http://indiewebcamp.com/posse https://twitter.com/adactio/status/486617601167339521/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/486720440476635136)
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kylewm wondered if anybody has any recommendations about bookmarks beyond what's on /bookmarks
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kylewm eg should I auto fetch the title of the bookmarked page, or if its better to be more selective and like write a description by hand
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/adactio/486617601167339521/257552937 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/posse (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/repost/twitter/adactio/486617601167339521/486720440476635136 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/posse (webmention)
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks, tantek, shaners I somehoe still like "posted via" or just "via" but that might be because I use it for backfed responses
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Loqi KartikPrabhu: KevinMarks left you a message 4 hours ago: one name for the [Twitter for iOS] thing that twitter calls 'source' would be Activity Streams (and Atom's) 'generator' - so <span class="p-as-generator">Twitter for iOS</span>
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blog.jasongreen.net created /User:Blog.jasongreen.net (+156) "Created page with "[http://blog.jasongreen.net blog.jasongreen.net] Short bio : [http://jasongreen.fed.wiki.org/view/welcome-visitors/view/jason-green jasongreen.fed.wiki.org]"" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu how's it going with indiewebifying your site JonathanNeal?
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JonathanNeal KartikPrabhu: an unfortunate physical illness. I’m eager to get back to it.
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KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal: aah get well soon then
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tantek get well soon JonathanNeal!
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tantek KartikPrabhu: except the backfed responses are automated thus "via" makes more sense for those, whereas authoring tools are deliberate user decisions, and "using" actions.
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aaronpk ooh backfed comments as "via bridgy", and "posted using Quill"?
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Loqi aaronpk: tantek left you a message 2 hours, 45 minutes ago: for those of you going to YaYY - I just added a "Website Club!" session to the session ideas wiki page they have: https://yxyy.hackpad.com/Session-Ideas-aZ5THxkaIRY - add yourself in the 5th column if you're interested!
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Loqi aaronpk: tantek left you a message 2 hours, 36 minutes ago: I made a separate page on their wiki for it as well: https://yxyy.hackpad.com/Website-Club-Dbuwkvyhps7
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aaronpk signed up!
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KartikPrabhu hmmm interesting so you think "using Quill" is better than "via Quill" ?
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aaronpk that's what's been discussed earlier today, right?
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tantek right
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aaronpk and to tantek's point about "via" being more of a passive thing
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tantek though the bridgy use-case is more of a "from" than "via"
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tantek backfeeds come from the silos not via
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aaronpk but bridgy is the proxy here, not a silo
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk tantek: so storing backfed comments with a "u-x-from" while storing my own posts as "u-x-using" makes most sense?
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snarfed agreed. personally i'd vote for omitting bridgy entirely and just putting "twitter," "facebook," etc wherever you'd usually put the source domain
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aaronpk so "from Facebook via Bridgy" would be an appropriate thing posisbly :)
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snarfed aaronpk: true
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snarfed the beauty is, everyone gets to do whatever they want
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aaronpk :)
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tantek snarfed's right, no need to add more plumbing exposure
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aaronpk I kind of want to find a tasteful way of exposing the plumbing that doesn't distract from the main UX
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tantek whereas "from Twitter" (which could link to the Tweet permalink)
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tantek aaronpk - everything meta that is exposed distracts from the main UX
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KartikPrabhu yes that's why I am omitting bridgy.... possibly since I might graduate to self-backfeeding
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tantek aaronpk - I think that may be why I omitted "using" in those cases
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tantek but it was inconsistent, so at least I fixed it to a consistent state
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aaronpk i'm thiking something along the lines of how you can "view source" on a web page to see the HTML
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aaronpk like "how does this work" and the answer is bridgy, webmention, quill, micropub, etc
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: in that case source would be the original tweet not birsgy
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aaronpk you'd be able to look under the hood, so to speak
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tantek sounds like you need a diagram
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aaronpk nah diagrams are often overkill
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tantek user uses a client C to post to a silo S which then gets propagated by backfeed as a service B
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aaronpk i want someone to be able to be like "hey how'd that get here" and take some action and get one little piece of information answering it. not a whole architecture stack diagram
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tantek hey you're the one that wanted to look under the hood ;)
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: i'd like to help people look under the hood too, since that is how I learnt all this stuff. "view source" was very very helpful
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tantek I'd start *without* any kind of "under the hood" nonsense and just show the minimum necessary to providet the backlink to the permalink
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tantek and then try to see what makes sense to incrementally add after that
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KartikPrabhu for instance I like the "source messages" adactio leaves as HTML comments
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aaronpk maybe i can start doing giant ascii art diagrams in an html comment
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tantek diagrams++
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Loqi diagrams has 1 karma
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aaronpk that way the "look under the hood" is still just "view source"
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KartikPrabhu tantek: you think "learn more" links to more detailed pages are helpful UI? I do that with webmention forms as of now
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kylewm if you truly wanted a view-source, why not just show the YAML+Microformats backing data?
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KartikPrabhu where the "learn more: links to my webmenition endpoint with a small explanation of webmention...
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tantek KartikPrabhu: a single "What's this?" link for new user interfaces / experiences
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kylewm honestly that's what I'd want to be able to see, if anything
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KartikPrabhu tantek: yesh that's what i mean
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tantek kylewm - because too much all at once = glaze over
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aaronpk I also like the convention of providing helpful "about" pages on the HTTP endpoints for things like micropub and webmention when a GET request is made
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KartikPrabhu kylemwL there is something to be said for progressive disclosure of info
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aaronpk e.g. http://aaronparecki.com/webmention.php https://indieauth.com/auth ( i should make those a little nicer looking, but you get the idea )
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: yes that's what I've been doing with both webmention and micropub :)
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aaronpk excellent
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KartikPrabhu that's why my webmention endpoint is revealed only on pages that accept webmention throught a form :)
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tantek makes sense
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KartikPrabhu trhough a "learn more: link
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tantek there are other tricks you can do to, e.g. desktop only hover on the via / from links revealing a (How?) link right next to it
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KartikPrabhu tantek: relying on hover seems to be bad UI nowdays
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tantek KartikPrabhu: seems ok for a teaching / view source type of thing
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tantek since THERE IS NO VIEW SOURCE ON MOBILE
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KartikPrabhu hmm
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KartikPrabhu tantek: is that not an argument *for* giving a good UI for exploring the under the hood stuff?
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tantek KartikPrabhu: in as much as it works for whatever generation is looking at your site
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tantek from /generations
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KartikPrabhu tantek: true. I'm thinking of a 16-year-old me :)
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KartikPrabhu who was on the edge of Gen1 and Gen2
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tantek KartikPrabhu: in that case you'd likely have your own site
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tantek maybe conditionalize it upon IndieAuth login
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KartikPrabhu not when I was 16-year old :P
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tantek you would if you were 16 today
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KartikPrabhu I was on the edge of learning how HTML worked
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aaronpk bed time! going to sleep off this heat.
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KartikPrabhu that is one fault I have with /generations. it does not address the edge cases
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bret does known have a maintained "itching"/current efforts page?
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Loqi [mention] http://blog.jasongreen.net/2014/07/events2014-07-16-homebrew-website-club-indiewebcamp/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-07-16-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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snarfed.org edited /events/2014-07-16-homebrew-website-club (+36) "/* RSVP */" (view diff)
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JonathanNeal tantek: there are services that let you view source on mobile, which can be helpful sometimes.
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JonathanNeal Sorry, jumped in late and perhaps off on that convo.
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tantek JonathanNeal: like viewsource.in?
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@t Inspiring week+ #IndieWebCamp PDX/NYC/Berlin & #IndieTech Brighton! What will you create & ship on your own site next? (ttk.me t4X01) (twitter.com/_/status/486769271410655232)
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@Brighton_RT RT @t: Inspiring week+ #IndieWebCamp PDX/NYC/Berlin & #IndieTech Brighton! What will you create & ship on your own site next? (ttk.me t4X01) (twitter.com/_/status/486770130299256833)
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@t Awesome work @adactio with shipping #indieweb photo notes including POSSE of images to Twitter! http://adactio.com/notes/6978 (ttk.me t4X02) (twitter.com/_/status/486773618676736000)
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@grigs RT @t: Awesome work @adactio with shipping #indieweb photo notes including POSSE of images to Twitter! http://adactio.com/notes/6978 (ttk.me t4X02) (twitter.com/_/status/486774098291605504)
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tantek it's funny that retweets of my tweet now show up in adactio's permalink as a retweet of *his* post, just because I ended my post with his post permalink
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KartikPrabhu tantek: that has been how bridy does responses for quite a while
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tantek I suppose that will provide more motivation for always putting your own permashortlinks at the end of your POSSE copies.
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tantek so your posts get the bridgy activity rather than the posts you link to
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KartikPrabhu but with POSSE post discivery that is not a concern
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/adactio/486617601167339521/35502297 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/posse (webmention)
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tantek KartikPrabhu: apparently it is still a concern because I use rel=syndication and bridgy is not discoverying my original posts, but instead discovering what I linked to
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KartikPrabhu tantek: it should do both i think. I think a few requirements for the posse-post discovery is to have a rel=feed on your homepage and have a u-syndication
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KartikPrabhu don't know about rel=syndication though
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tantek oh I have u-syndication too
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tantek why do I need rel=feed?
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KartikPrabhu hmm that's weird. t
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KartikPrabhu blergh
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KartikPrabhu I think it is so that bridgy knows where to look for the original post
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tantek why? the simple obvious case is that the h-entry feed is just right there on the home page
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KartikPrabhu tantek: might not be for notes. like mine
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KartikPrabhu you might want to raise that with kylewm
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KartikPrabhu tantek: but in any case i have a feeling bridgy should detect your posts
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tantek lots of silo errors today
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tantek e.g. Twitter DMs list just gave me: Internal server error.
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tantek in a red bar inside the "Direct messages" fake window
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KartikPrabhu using API?
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KartikPrabhu oh just web twitter?
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tantek web UI
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KartikPrabhu weird
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tantek works now - but still annoying
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tantek also getting a lot of "Oops / Something went wrong. We're working on getting it fixed as soon as we can." on FB when trying to peopletag some public photos
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/adactio/486617601167339521/154616559 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/posse (webmention)
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rascul oh i missed him
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rascul !tell aaronpk /irc/today should note the timezone
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@Wordius #IndieWeb Note that the rel-syndication plugin recommended for WP fails to install: invalid argument supplied for foreach(), line 688 (twitter.com/_/status/486823868016115712)
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@stopthecyborgs @BetaList Probably worth mentioning what the advantage of Known is over say self hosted wordpress... i.e. http://werd.io/2014/my-indieweb-life-how-my-site-gives-me-an-awesome (twitter.com/_/status/486841541613588480)
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@Wordius Status update: Testing #IndieWeb implementation. That’s all. http://wordius.com/?p=1100 (twitter.com/_/status/486842663300128768)
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@ranjeetTest6 @McaAshishJain r: checking the webmentions (twitter.com/_/status/486858304157536257)
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@ranjeetTest6 @RanjeetTest3 r: checking the webmentions 2 (twitter.com/_/status/486858379852128258)
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petermolnar GWG are you around?
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@jonl RT @t: Inspiring week+ #IndieWebCamp PDX/NYC/Berlin & #IndieTech Brighton! What will you create & ship on your own site next? (ttk.me t4X01) (twitter.com/_/status/486873655818072064)
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tommorris new version of mf2py out - https://pypi.python.org/pypi/mf2py/0.2.1
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tommorris just handles <template> tags properly.
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petermolnar oh god, I was so not aware what I'm doing when I decided to start writing a syndication plugin for WordPress, this is hellish :((
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michielbdejong !tell benwerd Hi! looks like there's two wrong links in the fourth bullet point on http://withknown.com/developers/ - I think they should be http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention and http://indiewebcamp.com/
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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GWG petermolnar, were you looking for me?
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petermolnar hi, I was, I'm a bit busy with my dayjob at the moment, I'll be back soon :)
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mayuresh Hello. :-)
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mayuresh Hi wolftune.
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wolftune mayuresh: mornin
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mayuresh more like late evening out here... ;-)
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GWG Hello mayuresh, wolftune
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mayuresh hi GWG
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mayuresh wolftune, you in the united states?
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@kevinmarks @marcoarment have you looked at the #indieweb protocols such as http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention There are bridges to twitter and Facebook (twitter.com/_/status/486901727103184896)
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aaronpk !tell benwerd minor nitpick about the yxyy site... the comment box looks so similar to Disqus for some reason and it freaks me out and makes me not want to use it
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Loqi aaronpk: rascul left you a message 5 hours, 43 minutes ago: /irc/today should note the timezone
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk hm yes true
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onewheelskyward I have that same reaction to disqus.
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wolftune mayuresh: yeah, west coast U.S.
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mayuresh cool
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GWG I am East coast
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mayuresh and I am from the "Land of Snake Charmers". :-)
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petermolnar re
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petermolnar so I've started working on the syndication plugin for WordPress and I'm only planning the interface and the storing of the data, but it hurts already
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petermolnar and at a point I wanted to ask you on some questions that occured, but I solved them more or less, so the question is gone and sorry for bothering :)
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GWG New Jersey?
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mayuresh India
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GWG petermolnar, always happy to lend an ear.
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kylewm mayuresh: welcome! are you working on a personal site?
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mayuresh yeah
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mayuresh kathe.in
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mayuresh that's just the starting point
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mayuresh have a bunch of ideas
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mayuresh to implement
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mayuresh heard about the indieweb, would like to learn more about it
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mayuresh hence am on this channel. :-)
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wolftune welcome
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wolftune I'm relatively new too
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wolftune I've been spending my time developing a community fundraising system to support things like Indie Web technologies but am way behind on actually getting my own website independent
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kylewm mayuresh: looks very nice! a good starting point is indiewebify.me if you haven't seen it yet. get Web Sign-In working and add yourself to https://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people
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kylewm.com edited /IRC_People (+0) "alpha sort" (view diff)
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kylewm wolftune: interesting! what sort of community fundraising site?
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GWG mayuresh, lots for all of us to learn.
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mayuresh true :)
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wolftune kylewm: a long-term sustainable patronage system, not fully operational yet see https://snowdrift.coop
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GWG I, for example, am on my third time ripping apart my site design since March.
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mayuresh GWG, I too will be doing some ripping apart soon enough :)
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GWG mayuresh, I am hoping that this will be the last time for a while. I am redesigning it to be more modular to make it easier to change.
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kylewm wolftune: I'm majorly excited that you have ways to donate that don't incur credit card fees... that's my big complaint with gittip
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tommorris.org edited /2014 (+137) "/* East Photos */ adding caption from Chloe Weil" (view diff)
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wolftune kylewm: my big complaint with Gittip for most of their history was they forced you to sign in with proprietary silos
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wolftune kylewm: they since added "Open Street Map" sign-in. :P Still not that Indie…
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mayuresh kylewm, thanks for the indiewebify.me link
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mayuresh will do the needful soon enough...
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mayuresh :-)
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wolftune kylewm: the other thing abotu Gittip is that it's not really a change from the donation options you always had, it makes no real difference in the incentives to donate, doesn't address the real reasons why just asking for donations has rarely been adequate
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bear rascul++ to having the best SSLLabs server score
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Loqi rascul has 9 karma
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rascul is the winner
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bear indeed
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rascul i coulda gotten higher score, i think i was up to 100/100/100/95 at one point but my cipher set was too restrictive
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bear yea, that level requires locking out of a huge chunk of older browsers
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bear which isn't a bad thing in some ways, but for a personal site maybe a bit too restrictive
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rascul yeah my thoughts exactly
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snarfed1 rascul: screw users, high scores are all that matter!
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rascul hehe
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bear hahaha
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snarfed1 especially with arbitrary internet points
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snarfed1 ducks
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rascul i'm possibly overdoing it as it is though
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Loqi nice
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bear yea, your current set locks out IE8 and older
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rascul it allows IE 8-10 / Win 7
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rascul i figured that was good enough for me heh
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bear yea, but I find that IE8 rarely pairs with win7 and almost always has XP
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bear most folks upgrade their IE version when they upgrade their OS
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@kevinisageek Found out about the indieweb plugin for wordpress http://t.co/pOVC3VJvCH, this could be neat. (twitter.com/_/status/486910511020531714)
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rascul are there many people still using pre-7 windows?
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bear loads
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rascul oh maybe i'll tweak it a bit more then
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bear but that is also a "what community are you reaching" question
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rascul i am my own target audience
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bear then your config is perfect!
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rascul hehe
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tantek I'm tempted to block all IE5.5 because it's nearly all bots pretending to be IE5.5
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tantek maybe even all bots
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bear yea, the bots use IE5 to get older html versions for sites that sniff UA
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bear blocking that UA will indeed cut down on traffic
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tantek especially if we're saying it's ok abandon users on IE7 and below
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tantek are we ?
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tantek as part of the tradeoff for SSL always?
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rascul i dunno
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rascul i'm not good at target audiences and what browser/os they use heh
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bear that's a tough call - again it comes back to what does the site in question want for an audience
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bear I think we are still a good year out as the range of tablets and phones reaches more people
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@kevinmarks @marcoarment there are problems with Tent as a monoculture http://indiewebcamp.com/Tent (twitter.com/_/status/486911483268194304)
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bear until then I personally will support IE6+
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rascul i kinda wish people just wouldn't use windows, supporting windows and/or ie gets silly sometimes, but then i'm probably biased ;)
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bear :)
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rascul i've been using linux almost exclusively for close to 20 years now i think
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rascul 18 years maybe, i dunno
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bear my job requires me to have and use all 3
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cweiske JonathanNeal, you did test phorkie on your mac, right?
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rascul by all three, you mean debian, red hat, AND ubuntu? ;)
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JonathanNeal Yes, I did test and enjoy phorkie on my Mac.
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cweiske when I remember correctly, mime detection did not work
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rascul how was phorkie working out? i vaguely recall you two trying to get it running
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JonathanNeal cweiske: it's very well done. I hope you consider markdown extra.
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tantek interesting thread to read in that KevinMarks reply
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tantek https://twitter.com/marcoarment/status/486899260172955649
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@marcoarment If you’re really interested in supporting a Twitter alternative, support an open, decentralized protocol like Tent rather than one service. (twitter.com/_/status/486899260172955649)
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tommorris s/Tent/the web/
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cweiske JonathanNeal, could you try to re-download http://tmp.cweiske.de/phorkie-0.4.0.phar and check if /setup still complains about mime type detection failure?
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tantek every single one of the criticisms of Tent in the replies is something we should consider as a *question* about the IndieWeb
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JonathanNeal Ha, uh, I'm in the hospital at the moment, I will when I hope to get home in a few hours.
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tantek JonathanNeal: hope you're feeling better soon!
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KevinMarks That's a good metric
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rascul https://twitter.com/radiocolin/status/486899770183933952
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KevinMarks Marco was being a bit opaque, I don't know what service he actually tried
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@radiocolin @marcoarment The average person doesn’t care about how open a social network is, just if their friends are on it. (twitter.com/_/status/486899770183933952)
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JonathanNeal But I will! I haven't been able to code so it feels good to test. Thoughts on md extra?
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rascul i find that one quite accurate
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tommorris "if you like open decentralized alternatives, you might like the legendary signal to noise ratios of e-mail and USENET" - buuuurn.
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tantek yeah the email usenet thing was pretty funny
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rascul most of my non techie type friends are annoyed that there's so many social networks and they have to use different ones to find different friends
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tantek of course, we still have to figure out good signal to noise ratio for webmention
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tantek aka spam blocking
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KevinMarks I'd love to get Marco (who is writing a podcast listening app) into the feed discussion
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JonathanNeal Thanks tantek :) glad I can still chat and test. yay mobile internet
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rascul have there been cases of webmention spam yet?
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tantek rascul - only via bridgy - not directly from an indieweb site
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rascul ok
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tantek I get plenty of spam @-replies to my POSSE copies on twitter
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tantek and I'm already signed-into bridgy, and setup with a queue in webmention.io
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tantek so yes, I already have spam in my queue of webmentions that I'll have to process once I have code written to process them and put them on my site
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KevinMarks Are they also annoyed by the "everyone in the same room" problem on Facebook, rascul?
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rascul i don't know, i tune out of those rants fairly quickly heh
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tantek this however: "The average person doesn’t care about how open a social network is, just if their friends are on it." *is* a key differentiating aspect of the indieweb approach with POSSE
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tantek so at least we have that focus right - on friends before federation
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rascul i do like that the way indieweb is going, it doesn't really matter which networks friends are on, at least to some extent
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kylewm was Marco's original post at least partially sarcasm?
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kylewm the choice of Tent seems particularly strawman-y
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bear agree - any tech/group wanting to change *has* to enable cross channel traffic to keep the early adopters connected to their slower moving friends
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tantek kylewm - I thought maybe but then the addition of "… rather than one service." makes me think he's being sincere, and taking a dig at app.net
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rascul i did look at tent at one time, but it seemed like it had a narrow target audience (not sure if that was real or perceived though) and it didn't look like it would take off
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rascul seemed to me that using tent would mean putting work into something i'll end up replacing later anyway
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tantek rascul - there are some here that spent non-trivial time with Tent, like Jeena, but came here out of frustration with the way Tent stuff (code, community) was run
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rascul ahh ok
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tantek within the first week or so that Jeena was here he built amazing things with his site - I think more than he ever got working with Tent?
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tantek https://jeena.net/
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rascul i don't really think that a twitter/facebook/g+ replacement is the way to go
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rascul i think the indieweb IS the way to go
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rascul hrm well that's probably obvious, since i'm here and all ;)
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tantek rascul - right, barnabywalters said it really well
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bear it's important to always be aware of any critical reaction to the concepts behind indieweb - even if they are for another project
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tantek http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/1480/
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tantek bear++
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Loqi bear has 9 karma
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@Johannes_Ernst RT @BarnabyWalters: It’s funny — people are saying so much about the #indieweb/federated social web not being a “Facebook Killer”, and… htt… (twitter.com/_/status/486916812924137472)
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bear heads out for a walk to unplug from tech for a bit
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tantek https://twitter.com/BarnabyWalters/status/340517027557036032
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@BarnabyWalters It’s funny — people are saying so much about the #indieweb/federated social web not being a “Facebook Killer”, and… http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/1480/ (twitter.com/_/status/340517027557036032)
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tantek more follow-ups from Marco: https://twitter.com/marcoarment/status/486900141874372608
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@marcoarment In reality, we’ll all stay on Twitter for the long haul, even if it gets shittier, because it will happen gradually and we forget quickly. (twitter.com/_/status/486900141874372608)
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tantek and https://twitter.com/marcoarment/status/486900951073042433
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@marcoarment Twitter provides far more value to you, and “open” principles are less widely held, than you think when you join a replacement for two days. (twitter.com/_/status/486900951073042433)
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@kyle_wm RT @BarnabyWalters: It’s funny — people are saying so much about the #indieweb/federated social web not being a “Facebook Killer”, and… htt… (twitter.com/_/status/486918761744572416)
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Loqi caseorganic: tantek left you a message on 7/8 at 6:58pm: I made a separate page on their wiki for it as well: https://yxyy.hackpad.com/Website-Club-Dbuwkvyhps7
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JonathanNeal I like it "friends before federation"
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tantek JonathanNeal: it's important
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@indieboxproject Next Indie Box Meetup: Monday #indiebox #indieweb http://indieboxproject.org/blog/?p=582 (twitter.com/_/status/486924265715793920)
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tantek j12t++ for keeping IndieBox going.
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Loqi j12t has 3 karma
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j12t Absolutely. Currently trying to get an automated build going. Then automated tests.
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j12t Imagine if your website could be automatically upgraded every, say, week, and you knew beforehand that the upgrade was going to be successful :-)
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aaronpk now that would be cool
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j12t I’m sort of there with my own sites, but it isn’t QA’d enough yet, and that’s because it isn’t automated enough yet. Getting there ...
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tantek that kind of seamless maintenance is pretty essential
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aaronpk i'm always terrified of running the wordpress upgrades in place because I don't trust that it'll keep working with all the plugins or custom themes
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j12t yep, otherwise you need to be able and willing to ssh, vi, etc. and that sort of limits the market ...
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tantek "sort of limits the market" - understatement of the day
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aaronpk same with mediawiki. like no way in hell am I going to upgrade the indiewebcamp wiki live. definitely installing it locally on my laptop and running upgrades there.
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j12t .. and also be extremely frustration-tolerant (I keep telling non-techie friends that geeks have an underappreciated talent, which is to be extremely tolerant in the face of constant “it does not work and I have no idea why")
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tantek I'm not so good at that :/
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bear j12t - please do poke me if you need help in automating any of the indiebox project - my background is ops and build/release
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j12t bear: would love your help!
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bear do you have a itch/problem list that I can poke at?
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j12t Not written down :-(
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bear is back early from his walk - 90F and being overweight == not fun
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j12t What about this. I should have the first process for release working in the next couple days.
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j12t I’ll poke you then with a next things that need to happen
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bear that works
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bear where is the project page for IndieBox?
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j12t indieboxproject.org
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bear goes to bookmark / load that
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j12t I need to write this whole process up
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bear :)
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tantek j12t - yes please! writing that stuff up is really helpful!
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bear.im edited /Indie_Box (+203) "add links for indiebox" (view diff)
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bear.im edited /Indie_Box (-6) "wiki syntax hates me" (view diff)
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jden sad to hear about http://chloeweil.com/ - I only knew her via blog posts, but some of my friends knew her better
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@ATArchiveBot Archiving http://indiewebcamp.com/User:Chloeweil.com (twitter.com/_/status/486935205442117633)
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tantek jden - yes it is very sad. she was at the first IndieWebCamp in 2011: http://indiewebcamp.com/Classof2011 and she was at the most recent IndieWebCamp 2014 in NYC: http://indiewebcamp.com/2014#East_Photos
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tantek very sad loss for the community and for those of us that knew her personally
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JonathanNeal Only insinuating what you are talking about, it's surreal to hear you say such sad things and all of your links are only happy.
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tantek JonathanNeal: surreal is how it feels. also numb.
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cweiske bear, you don't happen to compile php yourself on your server?
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bear cweiske - I do not
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bear I only installed php to see if I could help
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cweiske ah
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cweiske what I can tell you
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bear while I run and maintain quite a few customers with php5 I avoid it on my own servers :)
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cweiske http://p.cweiske.de/122
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cweiske that's the config I had to use to get phorkie running smoothly
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cweiske the (/.*)? in the location is especiall important
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cweiske because otherwise nginx doesn't let php handle urls like /path/to/phorkie.phar/foo/bar.png
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bear yep - that saves the remainder of the uri for use in passing thru to proxy
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bear nice debugging
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gRegor` KartikPrabhu: Did you see my note about The Living Room + HWC? I didn't leave it as a tell
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KartikPrabhu gregor`: yeah saw. it'll be cool to get that place
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gRegor` Open to other ideas for 7/16, but if nothing comes up I'll just try to get there early and grab some seats at that table
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gRegor` There's a Panera around the corner that's pretty big, actually.
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gRegor` Has a table like Intelligentisa too
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KartikPrabhu gregor`: yeha we should decide up on some temporary place at least for now
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kylewm cweiske: interesting, I get a different error with that config http://phorkie.kylewm.com/phorkie-0.4.0.phar/
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kylewm eh, but still the same redirect errors
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cweiske kylewm, you still need my php core patch
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kylewm oh, duh
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cweiske it will be releases 5.6.0, 5.5.15 and 5.4.31
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bear kylewm - you need the pat… /me is slow today
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cweiske but until that you're either doomed or have to compile it yourself
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cweiske I had a look about implementing Phar::webPhar() myself in php userland, but that's too much work
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cweiske and I fear that there are some cases in which I just can't reach deep enough into php's core from userland
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cweiske dooming the whole operation
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cweiske so I'm afraid for now phorkie on php-fpm doesn't work unless you compile php yourself from git
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cweiske nevertheless i'm glad you all tried to get it running
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cweiske otherwise we would have not found the bug in php
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bear :)
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tantek.com edited /notifications (+396) "add use-cases with brain dump" (view diff)
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kylewm cweiske: i'm not understanding the bug history, does that mean they already accepted your patch??
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tommorris so, my domain expired today. almost forgot to renew it. just renewed for 3 years.
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tommorris that would have been Indieweb fail with a capital F.
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aaronpk I last renewed mine for like 5 years, which is worrisome because it means I'm likely to forget to renew it when it finaly does expire cause I haven't been reneweing it every year...
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bret swooped by the daddy
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bret :p
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cweiske kylewm, yes
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cweiske see the orange icons on http://git.php.net/?p=php-src.git;a=shortlog
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JonathanNeal cweiske: i’m able to test again, new machine, too.
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JonathanNeal http://tmp.cweiske.de/phorkie-0.4.0.phar ?
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cweiske JonathanNeal, yes
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tantek welcome SamB!
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tantek SamB - do you have a personal site?
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SamB I, um, set up a blogger account to post a few scraps of information I thought might be useful to others a while back
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SamB nothing I'm proud of
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tantek.com edited /feed_file (+94) "/* Criticism */ no access to archives / content since a datetime" (view diff)
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SamB I mean, I'm not proud of it as a site, not that I'm ashamed of my posts
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bret :p
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bret welcome :)
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bret SamB are you interested in anything in particular?
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tantek nice thing about a blogger blog is that you can set it up to be served on your own domain
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/Blogger#Domain_Hosting
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tantek SamB - do you have a personal domain? or have you ever wanted one?
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SamB no, I'm kind of broke, and I'd be too afraid I'd miss renewing it ...
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bret thats what I though before I bought one ;)
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cweiske don't you guys have standing orders at the bank?
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bret huh?
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cweiske in germany we give the company our bank account number, and they fetch the money every month or year
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cweiske depending on how the contract is
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cweiske no need to renew anything yourself
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cweiske because your hosting company does that for you
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bret cweiske lol this is murica. things are never that easy
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aaronpk I do that with credit/debit cards all the time
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SamB I mean, I have naesten.mooo.com pointing to a personal machine, but I don't own that and my ISP blocks port 80 ...
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gRegor` has auto-renew on most of my domains
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bret cweiske we have to go through a visa card, wich expires ever few years
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aaronpk problem is things change. like billing address. or I get new accounts. or the card expires.
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cweiske haha
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aaronpk it would happen to me with banks too
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bret cweiske and bank numbers are super secret
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cweiske bank accounts do not expire here
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aaronpk bret: lol bank numbers are not super secret
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aaronpk have you ever written a check to someone?
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KartikPrabhu SamB: domains and hosting are pretty inexpensive now...
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cweiske yes, americans have a different take on that
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cweiske why should they?
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gRegor` You could make a kickstarter to make a potato salad website and rake in the money...
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bret aaronpk as super secret as a check is
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bret ;)
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cweiske we can "book back" 6 weeks if someone mistakenly retrieved money from your account
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KartikPrabhu bret: cheques are not super-secret :P
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aaronpk bank/check fraud is dealt with after the fact rather than trying to be prevented ahead of time
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SamB did you see what knuth had to say on the subject of checks?
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SamB anyway he got tired of dealing with the fraud so he issues notes from "the bank of sans-serrife" or something like that
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cweiske I have my current bank account for 20 years now
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cweiske and you can always update the bank account numbers with the companies you have contracts with
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aaronpk cweiske: ah if only it were that simple :)
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bret i was under the impression that they way banks work in Europe was that you can give your account number to anyone and they can just send money to it
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bret but im finding a gap in my understanding apparently
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cweiske that's true, too
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cweiske know someone's account number, and you can transfer money to them
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bret like there is some difference between EU and US where bank numbers are way more useful and secure
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cweiske within a workday
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SamB is it terribly dangerous for anyone to be able to GIVE you money?
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SamB the only risk, I think, is if that could somehow get you in some kind of legal trouble
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bret we actually have rules in place that prevent all the banks from transfering money faster via ach… primarily due to shitty big banks not wanting that
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cweiske we also had transfer times of 2-3 days, but the EU laws now require EU-wide bank transfers within a work day
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aaronpk I used to print checks from my roommates to myself to pay rent. was easier than having them go get a checkbook from their bank.
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aaronpk when they were out of town i'd even just print their signature on the checks
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cweiske haha. we do most of the bank transfers online
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cweiske must been 13 years I last wrote a transfer by pen
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SamB aaronpk: my impression is that you wouldn't need to even print a check these days
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aaronpk "The account number and routing information are all that international financial institutions look at before deciding to transfer funds from one account to another." "Forget signatures
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aaronpk banks have no time to verify them." http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~uno/news08.html
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SamB I heard there were websites where you could just enter the numbers ...
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aaronpk yeah there are plenty of ACH APIs now
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tantek from that URL: "…has branches in Blefuscu and Elbonia on the planet Pincus."
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@gRegorLove @marcoarment I've been participating in @indiewebcamp and working towards better decentralized communication via #webmention. (twitter.com/_/status/486963441819975681)
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tantek so Knuth is paying in Zinga dollars?!? (planet Pincus, presumably Mark, co-founder of Zynga)
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tantek http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Pincus
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bret tantek+
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bret woops
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bret tantek++
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Loqi tantek has 48 karma
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SamB tantek: well, I don't think anyone has ever cashed in one of these notes
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SamB so it's hard to say for sure
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aaronpk "...I shall henceforth award brownie points, otherwise known as hexadecimal dollars (0x$)."
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aaronpk here are the current balances: http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~uno/boss.html
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SamB tantek: ... your hcard covers the whole sidebar?
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@_jden I'm gonna be working on my personal site in loose affiliation with http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-07-16-homebrew-website-club on 7/16 at @4thfloorchatt (twitter.com/_/status/486964951353786368)
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tantek SamB - it really should cover the whole page since my home page is me
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tantek still working on that :)
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SamB ... are you sure you shouldn't be in therapy for that?
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bret lolwhut?
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gRegor` Haha
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SamB "my home page is me"? seriously?
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aaronpk my home page is the digital representation of myself, yes
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gRegor` has never seen tantek in the flesh. HMM
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SamB I hope it doesn't go down!
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SamB some digital-based intelligences are liking to diversify their consciousness
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bret hey your talking to a computer right now via a keyboard and monitor ;) how bout that
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/_jden/486964951353786368/2149850018 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-07-16-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/_jden/486964951353786368/15252015 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-07-16-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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SamB by which I mean, they like to avoid a SPOF by spreading throughought the network
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bret SamB have you every heard someone point at a picture of themselves and say "thats me!" I think that is the meaning here
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JonathanNeal cweiske: working! Also, I copied down the instructions, in case you find someone else who wants to run this on a Mac. https://gist.github.com/jonathantneal/24e0a6db2df58e5b9a87
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bret nice!
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JonathanNeal I’ve been meaning to make instructions like this for configuring trusted https on a Mac’s local machine. Think anyone would want that?
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bret instructions++
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Loqi instructions has 1 karma
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aaronpk yeah! There was someone I would have sent to that yesterday
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aaronpk feel free to link to my indiewebcamp CA for generating *.dev certs automatically https://ssl.pin13.net/indiewebcamp/
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JonathanNeal aaronpk: awesome, do your certs allow multiple domains / aliases?
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JonathanNeal By certs, I mean cert instructions
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SamB still thinks fragmentions is waaay too namespace-grabby ...
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KartikPrabhu what is namespace-grabby?
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aaronpk JonathanNeal: i haven't tried that
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SamB well, it seems to implicitly assume that there couldn't possibly be any other worthy extension of fragment identifiers
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JonathanNeal aaronpk: that’s the trick I wish I could figure out, having one cert that works for multiple domains.
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KartikPrabhu SamB: how does it do that?
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aaronpk you can try putting a bunch of domains in the CSR and uploading it there
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aaronpk that might be it
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SamB to not implicitly assume that, it would basically have to explicitly state the opposite, that there probably *are* other worthy extensions, and provide a mechanism by which different extensions could be distinguished
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: the whatwg group wanted it to be like ##text=slice+of+text
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kylewm so that you could use other extensions like ##regex=
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SamB or ##css=
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SamB or whatever
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SamB that's just an example syntax, of course, not necessarily actually workable
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aaronpk guess which one people implicltly understand :)
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SamB none of them!
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aaronpk that's one of the reasons there's no namespace crap before the text
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JonathanNeal aaronpk: i’m not sure how to add a bunch of domains in the CSR though.
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SamB aaronpk: how about, say, disallowing unquoted = in the query?
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aaronpk JonathanNeal: the thing you're looking for is called SAN - Subject Alternate Name
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aaronpk i'm having a tough time finding how to do it with the interactive CSR generator, everything seems to want you to add them to the machine's openssl.conf file
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aaronpk but when I've done this in practice, it's actually done by the CA when they generate the cert, not by me when requesting
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j12t Any reason not to use multiple certs and SNI?
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bret SamB have you seen https://kartikprabhu.com/article/marginalia as a good example of a fragmentation implementation>
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bret s/>/?
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Loqi bret meant to say: SamB have you seen https://kartikprabhu.com/article/marginalia as a good example of a fragmentation implementation?
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aaronpk I should have asked, what is the reason you want multiple domains in the cert, JonathanNeal ?
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Loqi I agree
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SamB honestly I don't see why anyone who knows how to query-encode a piece of text would balk at something like text= being expected before it ...
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JonathanNeal aaronpk: I do stuff like dev.testblabla.com, dev-1.testblabla.com, dev-2.testblabla.com, dev-3.testblabla.com
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JonathanNeal Especially lately when I’ve been testing website login webmention stuff.
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aaronpk you could always request a wildcard cert then
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JonathanNeal Can I generate a wildcard cert?
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aaronpk sure
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bret SamB, did someone balk?
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JonathanNeal aaronpk: teach me. I can write instructions around generating certs and adding crt files to a Mac’s keychain.
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SamB bret: only hypothetical people, afaict
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aaronpk I think you just put *.blabla.dev as the name
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rascul *.domain.tld
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JonathanNeal *.domain.tld will also target domain.tld?
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bret SamB although having a default fragment syntax set to text allowing preventing me from typing text= 98% of the time sounds nice
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rascul no, you'll also need domain.tld
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aaronpk JonathanNeal: I think so? best to test it out tho
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bret s/allowing preventing/preventing
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Loqi bret meant to say: SamB although having a default fragment syntax set to text preventing me from typing text= 98% of the time sounds nice
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rascul you can use sujectaltname
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rascul *subjectAltName
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rascul both alt names and common names support wildcards
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JonathanNeal I’m getting mixed responses. How do I target domain.tld and all of its subdomains?
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rascul either put domain.tld in common name and *.domain.tld in subjectAltName, or vice versa
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aaronpk rascul: do you know how to make a CSR with a subjectAltName without editing openssl.conf? I couldn't find that
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rascul i thought it asks by default
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aaronpk mine didn't
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rascul lemme check i've not made a csr in some time
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JonathanNeal rascul: when I configure CSR files, I follow a series of prompts and I haven’t see anything about Alt Name. I do see `Common Name (e.g. server FQDN or YOUR name) []`
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aaronpk same
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rascul oh it didn't ask me for alt name
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rascul gimme a minute here to figure out a solution
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JonathanNeal rascul: thanks. this will be gold for me when setting up trusted local sites on new machines.
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JonathanNeal I’m writing the rest of the instructions as we chat.
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tantek Samb - mistaking extensibility as being more important than usability (especially of the dominant use-case) is a common developer methodological error. Omitting any kind of query syntax *greatly* simplifies fragmentions and makes them much more "obvious" to people creating and viewing the URLs (e.g. in code).
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tantek but in developer circles, especially technical specification circles, people mistakenly value extensibility above usability so you end up with namespaces, XML, RDF, all kinds of crap which obfuscates getting simple things done.
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tantek and they use expressions like "namespace squatting" as if namespaces were a good thing or relevant at all in most cases.
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tantek it was sad to see that kind of conversation dominate the discussion in #whatwg - I would have expected that in various W3C discussion forums (email/irc), but not whatwg.
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tantek seems like a lot of whatwg is becoming like old w3c
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rascul JonathanNeal aaronpk looks like a config is required
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gRegor` KartikPrabhu: 7/30 HWC meetup confirmed for The Living Room
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tantek the fragmentions discussion really demonstrated that
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tantek gRegor`: awesome!
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JonathanNeal rascul: can you write up an example config?
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gRegor` updates the wiki
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tantek is off to grab a late lunch.
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rascul i can, gimme a minute
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tantek er, brunch. oops.
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SamB tantek: but *you* don't own fragments
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tantek SamB: seems off topic
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SamB I mean, it's no big deal if you only want it on a site-by-site basis, I guess
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tantek or are you referring to the way that any set of people can come up with an idea, implement it ineroperably and publish a spec? no one needs anyone's permission to do this kind of thing on the web. rough consensus and running code.
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tantek whatwg demonstrated that w3c didn't own that. and by doing so, they demonstrated that no one does de facto.
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tantek implementations and interop do - no matter what anyone at whatwg or w3c says.
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gregorlove.com created /events/2014-07-30-homebrew-website-club (+3689) "Initial event, new Chicago location. Please confirm venues for SF, PDX" (view diff)
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SamB tantek: having no or too short of a "magic number" makes interop harder, in general
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rascul JonathanNeal this is gonna take me more than a minute, seems i no longer remember how to configure openssl
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rascul got a few things to do, i'll get back to you soon
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tantek.com edited /events/2014-07-30-homebrew-website-club (-13) "/* Where */ SF is at Moz with writing hour" (view diff)
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gRegor` Is there a Portland venue yet for http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-07-16-homebrew-website-club, aaronpk?
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/_jden/486964951353786368/87274687 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-07-16-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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SamB tantek: anyway, this h-entry thing *does* seem to mark up the stuff I'd want from a feed, at least
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SamB well, h-feed+h-entry
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gRegor` Yeah, there's been some good work on an indiereader that will read those feeds, too.
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SamB oh, except how do you find the whole feed?
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JonathanNeal rascul: thanks!
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SamB I'm guessing not rel=prev[ious] ?
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tantek SamB - right now just home pages
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tantek are you looking for perhaps /archives or /navigation ?
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gRegor` brid.gy uses rel=feed for /posse-post-discovery, too
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tantek btw - typically h-entry is enough
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tantek h-feed isn't strictly needed
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tantek (except for a few use-cases)
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SamB tantek: well, typically when there get to be enough articles, it takes more than one page to even present a LIST of all of them
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tantek the "all of them" is the different use-case presumably you're talking about
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gRegor` For example, my (beta) notes feed is at gregorlove.com/notes. My homepage has a <link rel=feed> pointing to it.
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tantek that's not common (nor well solved) among silos for example, on Twitter, FB etc.
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SamB if you someones stuff is so good that you want to see ALL OF IT
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tantek very hard to actually view all of someone's stuff there
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SamB er. you know what I mean.
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tantek sure - and you can't do that now on Twitter or FB
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tantek I mean, theoretically? but through their javascript UI, slowly
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SamB yeah. you can do it on typical blog sites, of course, but it can be klunky.
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tantek and they have proprietary /snowflake /API calls to do some amount of historical pagination
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tantek interesting - how do you do it on typical blog sites?
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SamB well, /archives sounds about like the usual
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SamB oh, did I mention I like webcomics?
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tantek to be clear - when we use /-prefixed words like that they refer to wiki pages on indiewebcamp
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tantek e.g. /archives = http://indiewebcamp.com/archives
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SamB ah
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SamB heh
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tantek and /-references got auto-linked in our logs
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tantek is not wondering if /-* gets linked
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tantek s/not/now
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Loqi tantek meant to say: is now wondering if /-* gets linked
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SamB and here I was thinking "typical path on a domain to the archives"
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tantek that too!
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tantek it works both ways :)
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SamB well, I meant on ANY site
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SamB not just an "indieweb" site particularly ;-)
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tantek much of what indieweb does is codify best practices that predate it
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SamB anyway, typically it's either based on time period, or just "this much can be on one page and no more", or maybe even both
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tantek so hopefully not just an indieweb site particularly :)
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tantek Samb - yup - and you're totally welcome to expand http://indiewebcamp.com/archives
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SamB and yeah I hate the whole "bottomless with no alternative" trend
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tantek indeed
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tantek but I have to run to eat - so go ahead and add to /archives - and if you have any trouble logging into the wiki, someone here should be able to help with that
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tantek and welcome!
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SamB ... would I be lynched if I tried to login using a domain that had FOAF stuff on it?
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bret SamB you silly
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/adactio/486617601167339521/14961286 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/posse (webmention)
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KartikPrabhu gregor`: nice!
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KartikPrabhu re: Living Room
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KartikPrabhu gregor`: is it still at 1830?
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cweiske JonathanNeal, cool that it works now.
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cweiske could you check if you can clone the public git url of a paste?
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cweiske that's needed for federated forking to work
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JonathanNeal I’ll try in a few minutes.
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SamB oh man, thinking "do I have any domains of my own that have port 80 open" reminds me of a site or two I made on tripod.com in the '90s ...
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rascul JonathanNeal here i found this https://langui.sh/2009/02/27/creating-a-subjectaltname-sanucc-csr/
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SamB I really don't think I want to be linking that domain to my current profiles though ;-)
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cweiske JonathanNeal, gist forked: http://p.cweiske.de/123
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gRegor` KartikPrabhu: Yeah, 1830 for now. Willing to discuss later if that works for people (and the venue)
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JonathanNeal cweiske: excellent!
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KartikPrabhu gregor`: aah this is for 07-30... any ideas about next week?
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JonathanNeal cweiske: again, I recommend markdown extra to get the code block formatting
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gRegor` Correct. that's why I was suggesting Panera for 7/16 maybe. Sorry for the confusion.
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gRegor` Living Room has something already on 7/16
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gRegor` But it's a one-off. Going forward we should be able to stay there.
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KartikPrabhu gregor`: ok cool... will think about next week's place
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gRegor` Panera is right around the corner, quite big and wasn't busy when I was there several weeks ago around that time of night. Has a big table like the coffeeshop does.
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SamB warning: You appear to have cloned an empty repository.
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KartikPrabhu yeah sounds promising
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SamB um, yes git, that was the idea ;-)
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gRegor` "Warning: you just bough Hot Pockets"
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gRegor` s/bough/bought/
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Loqi gRegor` meant to say: "Warning: you just bought Hot Pockets"
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SamB still, fair enough as if I didn't know it was an empty repo I probably would want to know ASAP
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gRegor` You said Mari is coming 7/16, right KartikPrabhu?
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gRegor` Heading out. Back in a while.
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KartikPrabhu gregor`: she said she'll try... I'll try to get a confirmation
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SamB what advantages does h-card have over hCard?
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SamB besides avoiding studlyCaps?
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bret SamB its the µF2 version of h-card
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KartikPrabhu SamB: see reasoning here: http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats-2-prefixes
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SamB being newer counts AGAINST it, btw, as if there's nothing else to recommend it, the one that's had more time to be implemented is preferable
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bret SamB its what all of the indieweb cross site reply context stuff uses
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SamB (not that I'm saying it counts MUCH against it)
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KartikPrabhu bret: hopfully the mf2 parsers people are using have backward compatibility stuff
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SamB okay, I'm sold
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SamB the "using prefixes" thing sounds good enough to me ;-)
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bret SamB it comes down to what do you want to use it for?
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bret h-card is mf1, which can be used for rich snippets, but if you want to turn your html into json for some application, mf2 is better and more suited for that
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bret and hopefully can be used for rich snippets some day too
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bret (in search engines)
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snarfed KartikPrabhu++ for mf2py's compat layer
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Loqi KartikPrabhu has 42 karma
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snarfed kylewm++ too
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Loqi kylewm has 23 karma
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snarfed sure does love those fake internet points!
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KartikPrabhu too
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KartikPrabhu they're real to me
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bret snarfed has 23 snarfes
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SamB you should try them in #emacs
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SamB they're actually totally fake there ;-P
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KartikPrabhu wonders if the backcompat stuff was pushed to tommorris' mf2py
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: looks like no
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KartikPrabhu ok will do that pushing tonight
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kylewm must admit the backcompat stuff has made my life difficult
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KartikPrabhu y?
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kylewm wordpress.com blogs in particular come out all weird
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KartikPrabhu oh yeah wordpress templates have horrible mf
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kylewm authors nested in authors, entries nested in entries
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snarfed heh. sorry for dragging wp.com in the door, guys
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GWG snarfed: We'll forgive you
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GWG snarfed: You are a great indiewebizen.
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snarfed GWG: aww thanks
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GWG snarfed: The man who bridged the indieweb
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GWG snarfed: I'm reminded of the words of John Adams
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snarfed ?
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GWG "I won't be in the history books anyway, only you. Franklin did this and Franklin did that and Franklin did some other damn thing. Franklin smote the ground and out sprang George Washington, fully grown and on his horse. Franklin then electrified him with his miraculous lightning rod and the three of them - Franklin, Washington, and the horse - conducted the entire revolution by themselves."
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snarfed ah. you're too kind (i think :P)
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SamB what, no kite?
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GWG snarfed: It depends who Franklin and Washington are in this analogy
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GWG snarfed: Either way, Bridgy makes my POSSE more posseable. I appreciate it
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snarfed GWG: thank you! i definitely appreciate the kind words
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snarfed it started as a personal itch, so i'm just glad other people like it too
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GWG snarfed: I keep trying to follow that idea and make my itches available for others
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snarfed GWG++
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Loqi GWG has 12 karma
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GWG I just always feel my itches are inferior to other itches
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GWG But I'm told that is common
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GWG Probably the same way you tried a regex to replace snarfed with pfefferle in a recent chat log.
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bear very common. the only metric to worry about is if your happy with it. anyone else who uses it or even looks at it is extra bonus
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snarfed bear++
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Loqi bear has 10 karma
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bear the world of open source would be a lot better if everyone shared more and judged less (note that the IndieWeb community is *NOT* an example of this)
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GWG bear: I'm convinced my best project idea so far needs improvement, but I can't figure out what's missing
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bear put it up, let it rest a bit and then come back to it
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bear you will either discover the missing piece or not - if you don't, guess it wasn't a big piece
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GWG bear: I think I need an outside perspective.
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bear software is the only "engineering" process that is better when done incrementally
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GWG Something isn't seamless
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bear nods
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bear I have many a project where that one final bit did not feel right
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bear and is sitting in a TODO list waiting for me to come back around and fix it
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GWG bear: I'm using the thing on my site
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bear yes, I get that
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bear i'm saying that you can be your own outside perspective by putting distance between you and the issue
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GWG I was doing better when Acegiak was around. He was assisting by letting me bounce ideas and vice versa
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bear or you can release it and let others help
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bear nods
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GWG bear: I did. I haven't done anything in a month
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bear ah - sorry, I thought this was a recent change/issue
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GWG bear: I put it aside and worked on the mf2 compliant theme
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GWG I know there is stuff missing in that, but I"m working through it
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GWG The issue I have is with the Indieweb Taxonomy plugin I wrote It adds in a custom taxonomy for things like 'like', 'reply', 'repost', etc.
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bear square peg in round hole problems? because of how WP handles things internally?
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GWG bear: Sometimes. But the plugin does well enough
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KartikPrabhu hmmm for some reason I am confused about PRs in github
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KartikPrabhu I want to push changes from my fork to tommorris' where do I start a PR?
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KartikPrabhu nvm done
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bear you go to your fork
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bear it should….
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bear :)
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KartikPrabhu the whole "base" and "head" terminology is confusing
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bear it can be if your coming from a reference point that is not a distributed source repo tool
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bear that is the reason why github is so popular IMO - they abstracted out the confusion of many different ways to do branch/merge operations
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KartikPrabhu maybe
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KartikPrabhu but they should use better words or something
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bear were you using the web tools or following the "how to do it from the command line"?
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KartikPrabhu bear: web UI
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bear ah
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SamB oh dear
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KartikPrabhu command line is even more confusing
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bear base == "where to start looking for change history to send to upstream repo"
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SamB at least the command line is the same regardless of git host ;-)
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KartikPrabhu like "I start a Pull Request on my fork to push changes to tommorris' fork" is a very inconsistent sentence
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bear head == "where my current local repo is pointed at"
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tommorris Will take a look in the morning
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bear yea, it really is nothing but "gather up my changes and deliver them to that repo"
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KartikPrabhu tommorris: cool! :)
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tommorris Drunk merging is a baaad idea
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bear LOL
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KartikPrabhu agreed. even if it can be "safely merged" according to github :P
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KevinMarks_ I think I need to do a FAQ about fragmentions "taking over the namespace"
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bear github needs a "feeling lucky" merge button ;)
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks_: I don't understand that argument at all
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KevinMarks_ the namespace is already entirely taken, as id's are free text
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KevinMarks_ fragmentions are an alternative fall back if an id doesn't exist in the page
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KartikPrabhu yeah. did people complain about id-fragments not being extensible when they took up #word ?
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KartikPrabhu <honest question>
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KevinMarks_ well, they used to be name before id
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KartikPrabhu yeah
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KevinMarks_ if you want to put another convention ahead of fragmentions but after id, that is still possible
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KartikPrabhu yeah that's what I thought
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KevinMarks_ the best argument I've seen is tantek demoing them by selecting text, copying it, then going to the URL at top typing ## and pasting the text to create one
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KartikPrabhu I do that all the time too
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KartikPrabhu though it'll be good to have a "get link to this text" functionality. and I should finish that little project :P
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KevinMarks_ it's in the chrome plugin
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KartikPrabhu oh! cool
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KartikPrabhu i'll write some JS for my own site then
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KevinMarks_ but yes, making it part of your marginalia project is extra cool
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KartikPrabhu yup... :D
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tantek KevinMarks_: is there a Firefox Add-on for Fragmentions yet?
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KevinMarks_ not that I know of
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KevinMarks_ except instapapers
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KevinMarks_ oh hang on, they have safari not firefox
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tantek KevinMarks_: yes that demo is pretty damn empowering
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tantek it's actually *faster* for me to create a fragmention link than a fragment link
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bret KevinMarks_ is instapaper doing something with fragmentation?
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KartikPrabhu bret: http://bthdonohue.com/post/85643490431/instapaper-fragmentions
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bret KartikPrabhu KevinMarks_ should that go in http://indiewebcamp.com/Posts_about_the_IndieWeb ?
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KartikPrabhu bret: unknown... it is already on /fragmention
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bret ah ok
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KevinMarks hm, sorry about that, my client lost the ability to post suddenly
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KevinMarks ironically I think it dislikes fragmention URLs
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KartikPrabhu ha!
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KevinMarks yes, instapaper shipped support for PESETAS of highlights from their app to silos, using fragmentions
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KevinMarks however making highlights is a paid service
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GWG Moving the conversation
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GWG Skype...Talky...people focused communication
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GWG Go
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aaronpk i wonder if my /mention-app idea could be used to signal a request for a talky session
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tantek cool
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tantek aaronpk - that's what Yo is for right? ;)
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aaronpk like "hey aaronparecki.com I want to chat with you at this talky URL" sent as a webmention to my home page
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GWG aaronpk: What does my homepage do when I get that mention?
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JonathanNeal tantek, rascul, aaronpk, here is my first draft of Local SSL websites on Mac OSX https://gist.github.com/jonathantneal/774e4b0b3d4d739cbc53
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bear no reason why it couldn't - tagged even so that it gets filtered to a high attention feed
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aaronpk sends you a push notification to your mobile phone
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aaronpk see http://indiewebcamp.com/mention-app
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GWG aaronpk: This was the one I suggested could piggyback on Pushover as an interim solution, right?
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aaronpk that'd actually be a pretty cool demo
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aaronpk GWG: probably yeah, I want to eventaully make my own app for this but it's basically a generic push notification app