#indiewebcamp 2014-07-08

2014-07-08 UTC
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kylewm aliases would be nice too
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kylewm so @t and @tantek are the same person
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kylewm and @snarfed, @schnarfed and @snarfed_org
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snarfed (sadly not @snarfed)
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snarfed oh i see. nm
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gRegor` How about "directory" as a catch-all name for it?
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kylewm aw man and @snarfed is a one-tweet-wonder
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kylewm @kylewm is up to 7, all spam
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gRegor` Or personal directory
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bret.io edited /IRC_People (+55) "Added Johannes to irc-people" (view diff)
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tantek hey bret - people are supposed to do that themselves! it's like a rite of passage ;)
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bret we all know j12t by now ;) he has a user page n stuff, i did it for my own reference at this point XD
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tantek "directory" sounds so enterprisey
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tantek aaronpk's use of "nickname" alludes to its function, enabling an indieweb author to simply type a nickname for someone rather than having to type out their full name when referring to them in a post
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bret internet handle
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bret loljk
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kylewm that's no worse than screenname
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tantek nickname is nice because it's also a vCard/hCard/h-card property name
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bret and its a term that actually has meaning outside of computers
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KartikPrabhu is there a need to distinguish IRL nickname from a twitter handle nickname?
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bret KartikPrabhu can you come up with one?
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bret pseudonyms maybe
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KartikPrabhu I thought the use-case being discussed was a collection of internet alternate names like my Twitter handle, my domain name, my G+ account
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rascul irl i'm ray, on the internets i'm rascul
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bret raycul
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rascul !
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KartikPrabhu if all of them are markedup as nickname that might be confusing
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tantek KartikPrabhu: that's not a use-case, that's a data model ;)
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tantek "collection of ..."
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KartikPrabhu then why are people discussing nicknames? that is what I thought from reading logs
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tantek KartikPrabhu: it started with the reply-context icon discussion
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tantek then to aaronpk's implementation http://indiewebcamp.com/p3k#Local_Nicknames
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tantek then kylewm's implementation https://kylewm.com/admin/addressbook
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KartikPrabhu yes those are fine. but then is the term "nickname" supposed to be an internet nickname or IRL nickname?
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gRegor` I think address book sounds fine, actually, just threw directory out as an alternative
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KartikPrabhu as aaronpk noted "Note that in the case of @snarfed, his twitter account is actually different. "
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tantek the use-case for aaronpk was so he could type a nickname while authoring a post and have p3k automatically mark it up with the person's full name and link to their website, and ALSO change that to their twitter @-handle when POSSEing to twitter, per http://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter##translate%20indiewebsite%20people
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KartikPrabhu hmmm
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KartikPrabhu maybe I'm thinking this in some wrong way
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tantek but the secondary use-case is http://indiewebcamp.com/reply-context#icon
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tantek KartikPrabhu: it's ok, there might not be a use-case for you for this
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tantek if it were up to me, I'd use this for looking up (translating) both @-names and single world capital names in my notes
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KartikPrabhu I got curious since microformats came up
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tantek in the *authoring* of my notes
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tantek e.g I type "Kartik is cool" into my note authoring "UI" and it publishes "<a href="https://kartikprabhu.com/" class="h-card"><img style="height:1em" src="https://kartikprabhu.com/static/images/avatar.jpg"/><abbr title="Kartik Prabhu">Kartik</abbr></a> is cool" on my site, and "@kartik_prabhu is cool" in the POSSE copy
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KartikPrabhu yeah I get that one... i don't get the microformats connection with using "nickname"
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tantek that's just a point of linguistic re-use
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tantek rather than making up a new name for this concept / feature
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tantek perhaps even store them in file on my server called nicknames-cache.html that has h-cards for everyone that I reference like that.
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KartikPrabhu hmm
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KartikPrabhu urgh seriously. Twitter app names have to have globally unique names :|
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gRegor` Is it the p-nickname property of an h-card that's the confusion?
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tantek what's the confusion?
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gRegor` Re: you and Kartik's "nickname" conversation
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KartikPrabhu yeah that was my confusion
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KartikPrabhu if I encounter a p-nickname is the the person's IRL nickname or Twitter nickname or G+ nickname?
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KartikPrabhu as long as everything is local on some backend I have no problem
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gRegor` I consider it an IRL nickname.
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tantek KartikPrabhu: a Twitter nickname would be inside a u-url :P
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gRegor` But I don't know how I'd implement an mf2 addressbook for online aliases
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tantek there's no such thing as a G+ nickname
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bret aaronpk++ for monaco on the irc logsā€¦ can you add consolas as well for windows computers?
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Loqi aaronpk has 517 karma
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tantek KartikPrabhu: were you talking about my re-use of this the other day? https://twitter.com/kartik_prabhu/status/471033654257668096
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@kartik_prabhu technologies < ideas < actions. @adactio on #indieweb and selfpublishing http://adactio.com/journal/6801/ (https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/technologies-ideas-action) (twitter.com/_/status/471033654257668096)
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bret aaronpk also Menlo for iOSā€¦. does not have monaco
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tantek ok I'm going to call the feature /nicknames-cache
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tantek re-using aaronpk's use of "nickname" here http://indiewebcamp.com/p3k#Local_Nicknames and clearly indicating the intent of it being *just* a cache
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tantek and with that, off to dinner
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@justnathan That thing where you canā€™t wait to get a beta invite. @withknown #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/486316063106150400)
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gRegor` Hah. The DNS issues I ran into during IWC hack day . . . ended up being that I typoed the subdomain. Oops. :)
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gRegor` But, at least http://battlestaramandica.amandamaclean.com/ is now pointing at it's own space and not just a frame redirect on my own site.
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KartikPrabhu tantek: hmm you reused that tweet?
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: what is a good way to use Twitter API keys in code?
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snarfed i put them in flat files and load them from there
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KartikPrabhu but isn't the secret supposed to be secret and not human-readable?
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snarfed https://github.com/snarfed/oauth-dropins/blob/master/appengine_config.py#L74
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: don't check the flat files into an open source repo or serve them over http :P
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KartikPrabhu oh I see an external file to the app... cool :)
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gRegor` I was just reading up on the best practices for that too, KartikPrabhu. You setting up direct syndication from your site?
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gRegor` I'm working on pulling in reply-context from twitter
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KartikPrabhu gregor`: that would also be done. right now trying to decode incoming twitter webmentions. will later use it for POSSE and reply-context
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gRegor` Nice
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: still trying activitystreams-unofficial? let me know if you hit any (more :P) bumps
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KartikPrabhu just hit one... it seems outh_dropins/twitter_auth wants my key and secret to be in some file even though I gave it to the Twitter object
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bret crap we still have to do 'missed you' for 2014
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: thanks, looking
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: actually, for now, you can just put your twitter app key and secret (not the access token) in those files and it should work
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: seems I am getting the APP_Key and secret confused with access_token stuff
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: understandable!
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: four different strings, all related and important. whee
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KartikPrabhu hmm
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KartikPrabhu this oauth stuff is confusing
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snarfed yup
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snarfed on the API Keys tab of your twitter app page (something like https://apps.twitter.com/app/XXX/keys )ā€¦
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snarfed app key and secret are "API key" and "API secret" at the top
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snarfed access token key and secret are at the bottom
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KartikPrabhu oh I see
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KartikPrabhu never scrolled to the bottom :P
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KartikPrabhu is getting pissed at Twitter now
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KartikPrabhu why the hell should I add my phone number for write access to my own account!?
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KartikPrabhu goes to eat chili
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kylewm.com uploaded /File:kylewm-redesign-2014-07-05.png "screenshot from skeleton-based design"
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kylewm.com uploaded /File:kylewm-redesign-mobile-2014-07-05.png "screenshot of responsive layout for skeleton-based theme"
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kylewm.com edited /Red_Wind (+269) "/* Screenshots */ added screenshots showing off redesign" (view diff)
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gRegor` Nice work, kylewm
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Loqi [mention] http://david.shanske.com/articles/2014/07/07/unified-contextual-communications/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com (webmention)
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kylewm.com uploaded /File:kylewm-addressbook-2014-07-07.png "kylewm.com address book screenshot as of 2014-07-07"
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kylewm.com uploaded /File:kylewm-reply-tagging-people-2014-07-07.png "an original post mentioning several indiewebbers"
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kylewm.com uploaded /File:kylewm-twitter-tagged-people.png "possed note with tagged names replaced by @usernames"
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kylewm.com edited /Red_Wind (+2070) "/* Filestore */ documented address book/contact list feature" (view diff)
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kylewm.com edited /Red_Wind (+336) "added borders and captions to images" (view diff)
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: you have my sympathy with the OAuth token stuff... no way to know if you're even close until you get it exactly right
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KartikPrabhu yeah
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KartikPrabhu !tell snarfed: successfully retrieved tweet and converted to mf2.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@erinjo RT @justnathan: That thing where you canā€™t wait to get a beta invite. @withknown #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/486341717776289793)
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@withknown RT @justnathan: That thing where you canā€™t wait to get a beta invite. @withknown #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/486341862744420352)
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GWG I spent a few days contemplating people focused communication
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GWG I think I'm still lost
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KartikPrabhu benwerd: is there a dev sandbox to make and edit known themes?
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GWG KartikPrabhu: You were at that demo I missed...did you understand how the barrier for visitors would be lowered?
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KartikPrabhu GWG: barrier of visitors to?
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GWG KartikPrabhu: Using a people focused set of communication links?
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KartikPrabhu what is this barrier?
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GWG Properly configured systems?
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KartikPrabhu GWG: I am not understanding the issue...
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KartikPrabhu the idea is I go to someone's website and bookmark/save it on my phone desktop... then on clicking that bookmarked icon I am prompted with some communication links that I can use
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GWG But, the support for URL handlers is limited
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KartikPrabhu oh currently yes it is
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KartikPrabhu this wasn't discussed iirc
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KartikPrabhu GWG: in the deom using iPods the facetime and even skype links worked
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GWG Apple isn't everyone\
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KartikPrabhu i suppose the OS would have to add support for URL handlers... maybe some polyfill-type code could be written in the meantime but I have no ideas as to how that would work
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KartikPrabhu in fact I did send tantek a text message using my Android
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GWG KartikPrabhu: I think more sites could register URL handlers as well.
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KartikPrabhu GWG: how does a site register URLs?
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GWG I mentioned it in here.
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GWG http://david.shanske.com/articles/2014/07/07/unified-contextual-communications/
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GWG https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web-based_protocol_handlers
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GWG Here it is.
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GWG The way that Gmail can register itself as a handler for mailto: links
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KartikPrabhu GWG: then that is up to the relevant apps yes?
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GWG That's the problem
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KartikPrabhu for instance my Twitter app registers itself for tantek's Twitter DM URL
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KartikPrabhu GWG: why is that a problem?
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KartikPrabhu do you recommend that the website register the URL to a particular app/list of apps?
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tantek neat!
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GWG KartikPrabhu: It can't. The protocol states you can't register an external URL to your site.
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KartikPrabhu GWG: yes. so again I'm failing to understand the issue...
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GWG tantek: What's neat?
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GWG There isn't necessarily consistency on support
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KartikPrabhu sure... isn't that a problem for the apps to solve by registering themselves as handlers for URLs?
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GWG KartikPrabhu: What is their motivation?
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KartikPrabhu <shrug> to support text msg links?
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GWG KartikPrabhu: To support any links
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KartikPrabhu their motivation is to have their app used in such interactions. I mean why does iOS/Android apps do it?
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GWG I still think there is something here crying out for more thought.
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KartikPrabhu possibly. it is possible I don't understand the problem well enough
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GWG For example, Google has already deprecated XMPP when they transitioned from GTalk to Hangouts.
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GWG They will eventually turn it off fully
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GWG Facebook announced their XMPP support for their chat service will shut off April 30th, 2015.
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GWG I didn't see anyone even cover the Facebook one.
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GWG So, unified multi-vector communication is becoming harder
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KartikPrabhu isn't that a problem for the app makers? if people want XMPP apps someone should make XMPP apps that registers the correct URLs
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GWG KartikPrabhu: On one level.
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KartikPrabhu what is the other level? i.e. what can non-app makers do to solve this problem of apps not registering links?
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GWG That is the question I'm trying to figure out.
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GWG And the same question on the desktop.
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KartikPrabhu so the question is: suppose apps don't register links, then what can an indiewebsite do to 'register' them to something?
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KartikPrabhu GWG: is that ^ a correct way to state what you are thinking?
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GWG KartikPrabhu: Exactly
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GWG Thank you for helping me clarify that in my mind
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GWG I meander
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KartikPrabhu I'm afraid I see it as a problem for apps... but if you have a solution that'll be nice
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GWG I don't think I do yet
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GWG I've identified a problem.
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GWG I'm trying to think of a solution
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KartikPrabhu cool! first step is always asking the right questions
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KartikPrabhu if I may recommend a second step... try to solve the question in some special case
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GWG Well, my first step is outlined in my writings. Add more communications based links.
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GWG KartikPrabhu: Another question is if Is there any service that is 'friendly' to seamless communication?
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KartikPrabhu too vague a question i'm afraid
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GWG There were people working on indieweb messaging, for one
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KartikPrabhu what does a "service that is 'friendly' to seamless communication" do?
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GWG For me...that isn't turning off ways I use it
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GWG But that is also too vague
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KartikPrabhu you mean unlike FB turning off XMPP?
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GWG Well, that one annoys me
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KartikPrabhu no i mean is that an example of such a service?
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GWG And replacing it with nothing
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GWG We're deprecating our support for Protocol A, but we're not giving you anything to replace it with.
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KartikPrabhu hmm again that is a problem for the app-space... one service that does not do it is called the Web
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KartikPrabhu once something is in the HTML spec for instance it stays there for better or worse
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GWG But it can.
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GWG The standards can support a site having a closed protocol, but still interoperating
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KartikPrabhu yes... but that is not what you meant
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KartikPrabhu I am saying the Web always supports things you used
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GWG Yes
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KartikPrabhu the Web as in HTML + CSS + JS(maybe)
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KartikPrabhu if FB built something on top of that and chose to close it down... that is their problem and problem for their users
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GWG They did, I thought, when they abandoned HTML5 on mobile.
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KartikPrabhu again I don't have any idea as to how to stop app makers and Web companies from doing anything
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KartikPrabhu unless you put it in federal law that "FB can not shut something down once they start it"
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KartikPrabhu in fact I would claim that the indieweb is an attempt to create such a space
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GWG You can't. But, like POSSE, there has to be a way for people to use a vector and switch when you do.
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KartikPrabhu well POSSE is the way
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GWG Yes, but what is POSSE for Real Time Communication
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KartikPrabhu post private message on your site ans send a webmention
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GWG KartikPrabhu: That is the question, isn't it?
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GWG Also, to use an old example...can my mother do that?
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KartikPrabhu no that is the answer
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KartikPrabhu not yet...
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Loqi snarfed: KartikPrabhu left you a message 1 hour, 44 minutes ago: successfully retrieved tweet and converted to mf2.
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KartikPrabhu GWG: so here is a thought: you should outline your idea on how this should work (with mockups if possible) and then build it step by step
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GWG KartikPrabhu: I started thought wise
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KartikPrabhu cool
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GWG I wrote a post talking about why I'm thinking about it
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KartikPrabhu for this is a far-future problem... after I get webmentions and POSSE and all of that working...
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KartikPrabhu s/for/for me
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Loqi KartikPrabhu meant to say: for me this is a far-future problem... after I get webmentions and POSSE and all of that working...
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GWG I'm not ready to solve it yet
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KartikPrabhu GWG: it is hard to jump to solving that. Getting webmentions and POSSE working will yield lessons on how RTC should/shouldn't work
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GWG I'm getting closer to the end of my current project, after which I need to reinforce some of the other 3 I'm working on before circling to something new
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KartikPrabhu that is a lot of "working on" stuff
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KartikPrabhu question for all: iirc it is recommended that indiewebsites locally store related external pages (like webementions/reply-contexts). For tweets do people store the tweet permalink page? what about retweets which don't really have a permalink page but only redirect to the original?
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GWG 1. mf2_bootstrap - the 3rd iteration of my Wordpress theme, the one that fixes many things. When I finish it, I still have to deploy it to my live site.
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GWG 2. Indieweb Taxonomy - Basic feature complete, have to figure out what is next for it. It adds in the like/repost/reply style verbs.
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GWG 3. Semantic Comments - Syndication Metadata and styling for Webmentions
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GWG 4. Simple Location - My effort to add a much more basic geolocation support to Wordpress. It currently barely functional
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GWG So, 4 projects right now
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: woot, congrats! glad to hear it
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: yeah went pretty smoothly thanks for removing app engine dependecies
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snarfed np. congrats!
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: I generate a fake page marked up with h-entry and cache that
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: and I don't think I understand the second part about retweets
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KartikPrabhu so you extract the tweet data and rewrite it into some HTML form?
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kylewm yep
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GWG I wonder how my attempt to convince petermolnar to write a better POSSE option for Wordpress is going.
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: retweets have a permalink but the permalink redirects to the page of the tweet that was retweeted
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kylewm oh you mean, when someone retweets *me*
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KartikPrabhu yeah
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kylewm ah, that's whatever bridgy gives me
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KartikPrabhu yeah. so do you locally save the bridgy page and not the tweet page?
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tantek KartikPrabhu: have you seen /indiearchive ?
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KartikPrabhu hmmm
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: yes I save the bridgy page
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KartikPrabhu tantek: didn't realise that was the page to look :)
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tantek well it came out of the same question you asked about saving
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kylewm it's unfortunately asymmetrical
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kylewm i generate my own html for reply-contexts, and use bridgy's for comments
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tantek that is odd
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KartikPrabhu tantek: cool will look at it. I want to save everything in the same form so that reply-contexts and responses can all be handled in the same way (just like everything is a tweet on Twitter)
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tantek KartikPrabhu: I think the consensus has been to save the HTML - assuming that maybe we'll have parser improvements in the future to apply to them
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tantek rather than saving the "parsed" JSON output
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kylewm tantek: the IndieWeb Examples on that page are a bit misleading
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KartikPrabhu yes. that is my inclination too. Have everything as original+mf2 markedup HTML
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kylewm (I save both, just based on what aaronpk has said he does)
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KartikPrabhu the trouble is activitystreams gives me JSON and so need to write some conversion template
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@jasongreen @schnarfed When I try to publish with indieweb -press-this my page headers get posted to twitter instead of the post content. (twitter.com/_/status/486375701759524864)
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kylewm pretty sure you can get html from activitystreams
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tantek KartikPrabhu: huh - what gives you JSON?
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KartikPrabhu activitystreams-unofficial is the library behind bridgy that converts Twitter API stuff to mf2 but in JSON format
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KartikPrabhu is hoping there is some HTML+mf2 output already that I haven't found :)
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tantek kylewm: why do you say the indieweb examples on /indiearchive are misleading?
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: there is. microformats2.py
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: that seems to give me JSON/python dictionary not HTML right? or am I missing some function
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: the *_to_html() fns
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kylewm tantek: reading it, I would assume that aaronpk and barnaby save their archives in those github repostiories
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: primarily object_to_html() for AS and json_to_html() for mf2
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: sweet! thanks. overlooked that in my joy for getting it working ;)
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snarfed :P
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kylewm https://github.com/i-a/i-a.github.io is just a github pages page
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KartikPrabhu right on... makes my task simpler :)
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: btw, i should have suggested it earlier, but you can also use it as a REST API on http://twitter-activitystreams.appspot.com/ instead of as a library
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snarfed also has both json and html output
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snarfed either way
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kylewm snarfed: no worries, I recommended that to Kartik :)
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snarfed kylewm: heh thanks
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kylewm but I'm glad how it ended up, with a-u being decoupled from appengine
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snarfed kylewm: thanks! me too. it was always the intent, but i got lazy for a while
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KartikPrabhu is glad to keep everyone on their toes ;)
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kylewm snarfed: yeah you are super lazy. lol
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bret not quite site deaths.... more like app deaths, but check out all this "use aperture!!!!" in these threads http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=691240
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kylewm snarfed: (dripping with sarcasm, hope that's obvious)
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snarfed kylewm: hah yes, definitely understood, i appreciate it!
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kylewm.com edited /IndieArchive (+25) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ clarify links" (view diff)
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kylewm.com edited /IndieArchive (+191) "clarify links to i-a at the top" (view diff)
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kylewm.com edited /IndieArchive (-6) "copyedit, remove a few "this"es" (view diff)
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mko @tantek: implemented Whistle and NewBase60 as Node.js modules. Haven't gotten around to writing the documentation or tests for it, but they're up on NPM and now working (using them for my forthcoming new personal site). (cc: @hober since I based my NewBase60 on heavily his JS implementation)
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mko @tantek: Whistler ( https://www.npmjs.org/package/whistler ) and NewBase60 ( https://www.npmjs.org/package/newbase60 )
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kylewm bret: what a shambles and a poor show, fortunately, I moved all my photos to Aperture!
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tantek mko very cool!
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mko Thanks
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mko I'll probably make it a little easier to use in the next update. Right now, it expects a lot to be done by the dev in their app to make it work, but at least it has the NewBase60 and Whistle algorithm parts packaged up.
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shaners_ is anyone mf marking up the "using" or "source" data on a post?
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shaners_ e.g., Shane posted this note using [Twitter for iOS]
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KartikPrabhu shaners_: I'd like to do that but haven't come up with a good mf name
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shaners_ twitter calls it "source"
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mko shaners_: @tantek does that already. <span class="using">BBEdit</span> on just about every entry he publishes.
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KartikPrabhu mko: i think shaners_ is asking about microformats markup
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shaners_ "using" seems like a personally used class, maybe for CSSery. not for MF semantics.
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KartikPrabhu shaners_ would you use "source" also if you used a micropub app to post to you own site?
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mko I just assumed it hadn't been updated for MF2 semantics. "personally used classes" were mostly what we used in MF1
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shaners_ i'm not know about that word "source" either, but that's the idea. to include Quill if I post from Quill, etc.
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KartikPrabhu shaners_ I post a lot from Quill and so would like to have that
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KartikPrabhu I think Quill currently sends "client_id"
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mko "source" definitely implies something different to me than "client used to post"
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shaners_ mko: agreed
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KartikPrabhu mko: agreed
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shaners_ KartikPrabhu: i'm crashing to sleepy town, but we should probably start the process of documenting who's using what names already in the wild. and see what shakes out.
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mko I liked "client" -- seems appropriate given how ubiquitous the term has become with posting interfaces.
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mko like*
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KartikPrabhu shaners_ yes! night!
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mko g'night shaners_
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shaners_ i think i like client too. but i'm too tired to have strong opinions.
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shaners_ night all
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shaners_ good night, loqi
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Loqi goodnight!
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shaners_ you're the best
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@dominik WebMentions and brid.gy http://lostfocus.de/webmentions-and-brid-gy/ (twitter.com/_/status/486417655617048576)
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@dinchamion RT @justnathan: That thing where you canā€™t wait to get a beta invite. @withknown #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/486418176562167808)
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petermolnar good morning
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@MaggieLi16 Communication Preferences Before contacting me, please consider my... channels: #indiewebcamp #microformats #geoloqi #pdxtech iMessage: (twitter.com/_/status/486425136896028674)
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@PortlandTechPDX RT @MaggieLi16: Communication Preferences Before contacting me, please consider my... channels: #indiewebcamp #microformats #geoloqi #pdxtā€¦ (twitter.com/_/status/486427376969334784)
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@kevinbeynon @adactio @dconstruct Ooh, IndieWebCamp too?! That's something I *really* want to attend! I'm there. (twitter.com/_/status/486432122652327937)
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@jkphl @adactio Jeremy, will there be an #IndieWebCamp in Brighton in September (as shown in the background of this pic)? Any info on this? (twitter.com/_/status/486432826607546368)
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@jkphl @adactio Ah, found it myself, sorry for bothering ;) http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/UK (twitter.com/_/status/486434554811789312)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/jkphl/486434554811789312/11628 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/UK (webmention)
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mowens.com edited /permalinks (+582) "/* Indieweb Practices */" (view diff)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/aaronpk/484459540075655169/11628 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/IndieAuth#Use_IndieAuth_for_your_OpenID (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/chloeweil/483748813270560769/11628 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014#East_Photos (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/gRegorLove/484756166204215297/11628 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-07-16-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/jancborchardt/483247318238789632/11628 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/Guest_List#Farther_East (webmention)
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@kevinbeynon Booked the day off work and bought ticket for @dconstruct in September. Hope to attend @IndieWebCampUK too. All giggly and excited now. :) (twitter.com/_/status/486441715214340096)
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kevinbeynon.com edited /2014/UK/Guest_List (+206) "/* Bloggers */" (view diff)
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kevinbeynon.com edited /2014/UK/Guest_List (+8) "/* Bloggers */" (view diff)
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kevinbeynon.com edited /2014/UK/Guest_List (+18) "/* Bloggers */" (view diff)
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kevinbeynon.com edited /2014/UK/Guest_List (+21) "/* Bloggers */" (view diff)
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kevinbeynon.com edited /2014/UK/Guest_List (+1) "/* Bloggers */" (view diff)
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Loqi [mention] http://perfectpath.co.uk/2014/03/24/and-another-thing-talking-to-davebriggs-again/ linked to https://indiewebcamp.com/webmention (pingback)
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Loqi [mention] http://perfectpath.co.uk/2014/03/20/a-podcast-during-barcampnfp-with-davebriggs/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-03-19-homebrew-website-club (pingback)
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@voxpelli Updated my WebMention service some more and released some more accounts: https://webmention.herokuapp.com/ Get your IndieWeb conversations started! (twitter.com/_/status/486462856658190336)
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cweiske addal, I have a tool that sends out webmentions for new posts on a static site
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cweiske does not do posse, though
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cweiske stapibas it is
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cweiske.de edited /webmention (+83) "/* stapibas */" (view diff)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/dentonjacobs/484744417463771136/11628 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-07-16-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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cweiske.de edited /stapibas (+91) "/* Features */" (view diff)
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cweiske.de edited /stapibas (+38) (view diff)
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cweiske.de created /linkback (+90) "Created page with "{{stub}} Linkback is the generic term for [[trackback]], [[pingback]] and [[webmention]]."" (view diff)
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GWG pfefferle: Got a minute?
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GWG Wanted to ask your advice about that Taxonomy plugin I was working on.
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pfefferle GWG sure
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tantek good morning #indiewebcamp!
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GWG pfefferle: I think after a lot of discussion with acegiak, I simplified it as much as possible to make it easy to install and work with. But I still feel something is missing that prevents me from suggesting people use it in production
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GWG Good morning, tantek.
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GWG pfefferle: I need an outsider. Maybe a neophyte to try using it
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pfefferle GWG ;)
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pfefferle have you deployed the latest version?
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GWG pfefferle: On my live site, test site, and on the repository.
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GWG pfefferle: The test site has the custom filter so it isn't being placed inside the content filter.
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pfefferle GWG will have a look at it if I have some minutes
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GWG pfefferle: ALways appreciated
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pfefferle GWG ;)
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GWG pfefferle: And if you can find me a neophyte...a new Indieweb type who uses Wordpress who might be willing to give feedback...
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GWG Something is missing, I just can't put my finger on it
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pfefferle translates neophyte
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tantek reads logs
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tantek hmm - didn't know anyone else was interested in "using"
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tantek what does Twitter call the field in their API? presumably if they return it
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gRegor` tantek: "source" I believe
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tantek gRegor`: indeed: https://dev.twitter.com/docs/api/1.1/get/statuses/show/%3Aid
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tantek "source": "web"
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tantek that's not an overloaded term at all :P
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gRegor` For indieweb, I like "client" or "client_id"
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gRegor` Heh
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tantek it's the name of the app that the user used to author/post right?
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tantek I've been using "using" as a bias towards what was the user *using* to write the post.
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tantek gRegor`: seems to me that this thing could end up being its own embedded object, with link to app home page etc.
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tantek name+URL = h-*
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bear i've always thought of using "via" for that, for example: bear posted via quill
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bear because source doesn't cover a 3rd party proxy
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tantek bear - except that "via" already has common use as meaning a person someone got something from
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tantek hence using > via
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tantek "bear posted using quill"
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bear nods
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tantek "bear wrote a note using a quill" ;)
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bear I thought the consensus was flowing towards "source" - I can see how "using" is better
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tantek "source" could also be easily misinterpreted as "citation"
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@obra @benwerd It's a little weird for the footer of http://withknown.com to link to twitter and github and notā€¦known/indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/486536589560934400)
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@benwerd @obra Good call. I also really like linking to the indieweb there. That may change this morning ... (twitter.com/_/status/486536997247258625)
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tantek yay!
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Loqi giggles
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tantek :D
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tommorris ā€œusingā€Ā? Iā€™d go with something even more explicit like ā€œposting methodā€Ā.
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tantek "method" sounds like something you call on an object/class :P
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@LAURIGNANO Known http://withknown.com/ #publishing #platform #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/486545542856441856)
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j12t Seems that indiephone.eu has morphed into ind.ie post-summit. Anybody know of any blog posts describing what happened at that event?
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tantek what no freeisal.ie ? ;)
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tantek j12t - not sure but what's ind.ie/cloud ? (in the footer of that site)
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rascul there is no cloud
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tantek no kidding
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tantek more like the cloud is a lie
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j12t Heā€™s now also talking about a foundation, and was wondering what that was all about.
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tantek tommoris - what was the "9:50 An Indie Tech Announcement / Itā€™s a surprise." ? at the indietech summit
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tantek j12t - because creating a foundation was clearly the key to the success of OpenID and OpenSocial.
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j12t Well, Iā€™d like to hear what his thoughts are before I decide what I think about them. Certainly some foundations ā€” Apache, say ā€” have been very useful.
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tantek tommorris - also what was "5:05 An Indie Phone announcement / We canā€™t tell you yet!" ?
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tantek j12t - useful foundations have been the exception, not the rule, in open source (perhaps in general)
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tantek obv Apache, Mozilla
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tommorris tantek: I donā€™t know. I was in the corridor track.
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tantek but note that in both cases there was *years* of shipping code before anyone started a foundation
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tantek I want to know of even *one* example of where starting a foundation *before* shipping code led to *any* success.
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tommorris Foundation politics is fun. Wikimedia Foundation is okay, but can get a bit political.
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tommorris OpenStreetMap Foundation is great. Itā€™s kept deliberately lean and limited in mission.
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j12t tommorris: if you were at that event, would you happen to have a summary blog post for those of us who werenā€™t? :-)
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tantek tommorris - I tried checking the indie2014 and indietech hashtags to no avail. can't tell what was the surprise announcement(s)
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tommorris annual budget for OSMF is like 100,000 GBP.
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tantek j12t - indeed I've been looking for such a summary blog post myself
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tantek I checked adactio.com and didn't see much
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tommorris tantek: I was going to write one yesterday but I ended up pounding the cross-trainer like a crazy man.
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tantek I mean - I want to write a nice summary post of all the awesome indieness of the past week+ of IndieWebCamp 2014 and Indie Tech Summit and link to others' posts but can't find much. :/
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gRegor` KartikPrabhu: Marcy said she'll email me back today about The Living room + HWC
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tommorris tantek: the post Iā€™m going to write will probably just be cool stuff I saw + ranting about how ā€œidentityā€Ā is a way for everyone to turn their pragmatism off and get into pointless religious wars
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tommorris (there was someone there who was trying to sell us all on i-Names + XRIs + XRDS, and someone else who thought that Namecoin and blockchains would solve all the things.)
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tantek would very much like to see more coverage of the "cool stuff" you saw
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tantek let's try to focus on the positive in our posts
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tommorris I pointed out that the main website you use to buy Namecoins had OpenID login...
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tantek hah!
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tommorris anyway, I had a nice chat with bnvk about how we could build a browser plugin to make IndieAuth (and OpenID, incidentally) easier by adding a simple identifier
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tommorris basically, the problem with OpenID and IndieAuth is that typing in your domain makes it less easy than just clicking Facebook or Twitter or Google or whatever the NASCAR silo of the week is
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tantek tommorris: that "problem" has never been shown to be true in any actual user study
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tommorris if we simply added a class or some other kind of identifier to the OpenID or IndieAuth form which basically says ā€œthis is an IndieAuth formā€Ā (e.g. class=indieauth) then a simple browser plugin could store your domain
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tantek and the disproof of it is that typing in your domain name is shorter than typing in your email address at your domain - which people already do when first signing in
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tantek we shouldn't need to add anything
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Loqi fo sho
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tommorris and then replace the form with ā€œSign in with tommorris.orgā€Ā instead of ā€œSign in with your domain [form]"
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tantek how do current sites with email + pw login get auto-fill of the email address?
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tommorris by using a common name
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tantek citation?
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tommorris just experience of use.
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tommorris and experience of when it fails
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tantek not worth trying to invent something for that until we understand (e.g. with citations) how the previous email-based mechanism works
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tommorris if you are using Firefox, if you have a form field called ā€œemailā€Ā, when you activate it and then press ā€˜downā€™, itā€™ll show you things youā€™ve put in other fields called email.
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tommorris same with name, address, phone #s, CC numbers etc.
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tantek and input type=url
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tantek done
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gRegor` Presuming one has "save form inputs" enabled in the browser, tommorris.
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tantek gRegor`: doesn't matter
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tommorris Firefox is now doing Firefox Mobile on Android. and thereā€™s FirefoxOS/B2G/whatever itā€™s called this week. the idea that your browser extensions and settings are synced between devices is coming. similarly, iOS now syncs your Safari saved passwords to iOS using iCloud, and Google is doing the same between Chrome on desktop and Android.
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tantek all you have to do is make it as good as email+pw auto-fill
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gRegor` Huh? If it's disabled in your browser, it doesn't autofill. I know because I have it disabled.
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tommorris so, having a browser plugin that automatically replaces indieauth/openid sign in with a big button like FB would be fairly neat.
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tommorris itā€™d make the experience slightly more seamless. (although security, as Iā€™ve pointed out and adactio has agreed, should probably have the seams showing.)
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tantek right - that
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tommorris anyway, time for me to go home. Iā€™ll try and find some time this evening to write some thoughts from IndieTechSummit.
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tantek and for that reason, having the domain be explicit, in an text field, is better
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tantek that's the "showing the seams" approach
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tantek auto-fill the domain, but let the user change it
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tantek this is all discussed on /web-sign-in
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tantek double checks
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ericholscher Is there something good that people are using for hosting photos?
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ericholscher indieweb style
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tantek ericholscher: as in *storing* photos? because you want the permalinks to the resources to be on your own domain
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ericholscher presumably software I'd run on my site to upload/host/browse them
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tommorris ericholscher: weā€™re still sort of figuring out how to do photos well
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cweiske bear, kylewm, aaronpk - I've made a php patch that fixes the nginx-fpm problem
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cweiske see the linked PR at https://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=67587
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tantek ericholscher: I think /Known supports that
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tantek tommorris - here you go - documented more explicitly: http://microformats.org/wiki/web-sign-in#subsequent
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kylewm cweiske: nice!
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aaronpk whoa, ind.ie?
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donpdonp aaronpk: woah. https://ind.ie/manifesto/
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aaronpk cweiske++ for submitting a patch to php!!
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Loqi cweiske has 12 karma
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tantek donpdonp - what do you think of that "manifesto"?
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donpdonp ive only skimmed a bit of it and then got annoyed that PgDn doesnt work on the site.
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donpdonp :)
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tantek lol
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aaronpk why no website field in the signature form?
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donpdonp tantek: okay on a further skimming, its laughably idealistic. 'down with corporations' our solution: 'sell products'
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tantek ouch
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aaronpk i do like this sentence though "We do not reject making a profit
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aaronpk we simply want to make an ethical, sustainable profit."
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donpdonp its a nice sentiment, and it sounds aligned with open data, open source, etc
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aaronpk whoa there's another whole page of text that expands inline if you click the little dotted text
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tantek all I saw was markup in the tooltips on the dotted text
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aaronpk omg there's a whole html document in the title attribute
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aaronpk you can do that?
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aaronpk <dfn title='<h3>Independent</h3>...
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tantek um no
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aaronpk the html validator isn't complaining
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donpdonp probably cause its ignoring the unknown dfn tag?
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donpdonp oh its a thing "The <dfn> tag is a phrase tag. It defines a definition term."
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tantek no it's ignoring the markup inside the title attribute
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tantek welcome back crystal_ !
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crystal_ tantek: heya!
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tantek had to turn off the wiki restyling theme because it was unusable due to long line lengths :(
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bret ericholscher photo hosting is still a pain in the ass ime. Was using flickr but they stagnated and now are changing their relationship with their users from more of a traditional paid service to be more like other social networks. I have been researching amazon cloud drive / S3 as a replacement. I have not found anything very compelling beyond a data hosting service
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donpdonp bret: i like the design of the camlistore photo interface, but it doenst make sense to me to integrate it with the database daemon
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bret There are some alternatives like https://trovebox.com and http://theopenphotoproject.org but i have not really ever started using either much
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aaronpk it's probably time for me to update my flickr archiver into a real thing
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donpdonp bret: oh and the gnome one, mediagoblin
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bret donpdonp camlistore is conceptually great for thisā€¦. still, I dont trust it enough right now to use it and I dont have time to learn its internals
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bret i would be worried about losing data
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donpdonp oh. i find it trustworthy.
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tantek bret - trovebox and openphoto are the same
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tantek and was a disaster for barnabywalters
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tantek see /trovebox for details
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donpdonp i consider camlistore to be an 'opinionated document database', and im into the unopinionated dbs, especially rethinkdb.
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bret donpdonp yeah mediagoblin is nice. I like the interface but I worry its going to be a maintenance nightmare in the future, kinda like old wordpresses
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tantek I consider camlistore focusing on plumbing instead of UX, so therefore a distraction.
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bret tantek ah right...
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bret forgot about that
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bret donpdonp i wish camlistore worked more like a dropbox client than traditional servery software
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bret and I dont like how centralized it is right now
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tantek curious what user-facing features it is enabling for you guys that makes it deserve your attention
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aaronpk i really wish bittorrent sync was open source, cause it works so well!
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bret aaronpk yeah, bittorrent sync + content addressable storage.
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aaronpk what is the short version of the appeal of content addressable storage?
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tantek do devs focus on storage because UX is hard?
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bret storage is pretty damn hard for large files
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JonathanNeal hello
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gRegor` Hi JonathanNeal
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JonathanNeal Whatā€™s happeninā€™ in indie web?
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bret tantek unless you are willing to give up ownership of the data and use a streaming service like netflix or spotify
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aaronpk i agree that storage is hard, that's why I like the btsync or dropbox approach of focusing on storage, and treating apps on top at a separate layer
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donpdonp tantek: i think storage gets the focus for camlistore because its a storage project that happens to have a photo webapp
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tantek bret - s3?
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bret tantek s3 is hard :[
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tantek interesting
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donpdonp like a washingmachine with a ceilingfan.
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aaronpk it's also not practical to store several gb files on s3
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bret at least it appears non trivial
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bret and low on my list
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donpdonp bret: the photo screenshots of mediagoblin look nice.
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donpdonp http://mediagoblin.org/images/tour/image_media1_cropped.png
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donpdonp black theme, tags are prominent
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bret s3 would probrably be the wisest and easiest thing to use right nowā€¦ but I love distributed technology because it lets kids (anyone actually) create their own netflix with a single lamp server essentially
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bret i should write a blog post about this so I can think this through
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Loqi definitely
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tantek blog++
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Loqi blog has 1 karma
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bret but essentially I want http://www.bittorrent.com/sync to operate like https://git-annex.branchable.com/special_remotes/ and use https://camlistore.org as a storage engine instead of git to allow for versioned large files
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bret and then have my website be backed by that
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bret lol
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bret it does not contain a blockchain
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donpdonp lol
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tantek is that a plus or minus? I don't get it.
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donpdonp aaronpk: an opensource btsync has to be in the works, it works too well to not be reimplemented as open source
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bret tantek its a plus!
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bret i grew up in p2p communities, so you see where my bias is.
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donpdonp aaronpk: http://forum.bittorrent.com/topic/27492-syncthing-new-opensource-alternative-to-btsync/
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aaronpk oh right syncthing! i should probbably give that a shot
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donpdonp also https://github.com/jewel/clearskies
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bret donpdonp there are so many bittorrent inc apologists in that forum (paraphrasing) "pff they shouldnt have to open source it.. gawwwlll"
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donpdonp im not familiar with the corp that makes btsync, but im fine with them publishing a closed source app.
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aaronpk yeah closed source is not the end of the world. I'm mostly glad I can use btsync to move data around where the data doesn't need to flow through a service i'm paying for
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bret donpdonp are you fine with them installing crap ware on peoples computers as a primary source of revenue?
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donpdonp bret: heh. the daemon hasnt been crapware for me. maybe the win/osx edition is different?
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aaronpk the osx one is great
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bret the sync client does not have it. their torrent clients do
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tantek do you guys use btsync for your indieweb backend or ā€¦ ? trying to understand the connection.
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bret tantek indiewebcamp backup!
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gregorlove.com edited /site-deaths (+964) "Added codespaces.com, moved Orkut to "Upcoming" section" (view diff)
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tantek like backup of the wiki itself?
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aaronpk the wiki backup is distributed via btsync
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bret yea
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tantek whoa
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aaronpk http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/backup
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bret http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/backup
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bret basically install the client, add public read only key, start backing up!
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bret its on par with dropbox
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aaronpk bonus is that you get an offline searchable archive of the wiki!
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bret yes very nice view into the wiki
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bret alternative
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bret there is one setting you should check though, and thats restore files to their original state if modified locally
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bret so you can actually seed back the correct backup changes
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aaronpk bret: you should add that to the wiki page under the btsync section
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aaronpk did not know about that
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bret aaronpk im not sure about it totally, i need to experiment, but I know it archives any modified files and replaces them with the correct version.
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bret its not critical
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tantek what is btsync?
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tantek hmm, no /btsync?
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bret.io edited /wiki/backup (+328) "Added some optional instructions for btsync" (view diff)
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bear btsync++
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Loqi btsync has 2 karma
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bear we use it to coordinate ops secrets
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bret tantek ill make it
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bret or start it
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bret.io created /bittorrent-sync (+1054) "Started bittorrent sync page" (view diff)
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bret.io created /btsync (+29) "redirect" (view diff)
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bret.io edited /bittorrent-sync (+32) "Added link" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /photos (+217) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ Jeremy Keith since 2014-07-05!" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /bittorrent-sync (+21) "+ dfn" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /photos (+318) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ sort earliest first, and separate notes with embedded photos, note Jeremy POSSEing photo posts to Twitter" (view diff)
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tantek adactio gets indie photo posts working and nearly *half* of the comments are nitpicking what text-editor he's using. and two about PHP-bashing. that's sad. or is that just Twitter turning into hackernews style commentary?
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tantek https://twitter.com/adactio/status/485552177080201217
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@adactio If you can see this, my code is working. https://twitter.com/adactio/status/485552177080201217/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/485552177080201217)
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tantek and even when he points this out, the commentary continues in the same way! https://twitter.com/adactio/status/486088358624768000
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Loqi [@adactio] People on Twitter criticise my choice of programming language and text editor.
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aaronpk thanks for the reminder to reply to that thread :)
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tantek wow adactio is using his own main server / webhost for the photos
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gRegor` https://twitter.com/jamboid/status/486099342336737280
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@jamboid @adactio Iā€™ve always wondered if there are raging flame wars amongst carpenters regarding hammer choice. Probablyā€¦ not. (twitter.com/_/status/486099342336737280)
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gRegor` Hehe
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tantek e.g. http://adactio.com/images/uploaded/6978/large.jpg
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tantek no subdomain so ā€¦ unlikely that it's being served from a CDN or S3 etc.
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tantek will be curious to see how it impacts his bandwidth etc.
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mko It could be.
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gRegor` When I start hosting my own photos, I've thought about using http://www.coralcdn.org
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mko I'm serving my static assets through Cloud Files with dynamic URL generation using the Cloud Files API.
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tantek gRegor`: could you add that to a "Hosting" subsection of http://indiewebcamp.com/photos#Brainstorming ?
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tantek mko - do you post photos to your own site?
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mko I'm working on that part of the site right now.
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gRegor` Hosting or CDN section?
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tantek Hosting makes sense, CDN is just a special form of that
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mko So far I've implemented articles, notes, checkins, links, and arbitrary data. Photos and social actions ( replies, faves, bookmarks, reposts ) are my next couple of days' activities. Then I'm setting up the POSSEing and it should all be good to go.
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mko Hoping to have it ready to ship live next week. Just depends on how long my shoulder can last at a computer. It's only been a month since the surgery.
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tantek mko whoa!
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gregorlove.com edited /photos (+133) "Hosting section, Coral CDN" (view diff)
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aaronpk mko: wow that's some ridiculously fast progress!
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tantek mko looking forward to seeing you throw the switch!
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tantek and that's a lot to ship at once!
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tantek.com edited /PHP (+211) "Articles - start with Rachel's unfashionably-profitable pragmatic explanation of why PHP" (view diff)
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mko Well, I had a lot of it already done in PHP/MySQL from the previous iteration of my site. And I abstracted out all of the types to a single base type ("entry") and just had to do extensions and custom displays for each of them. I can write code with Node.js/Mongodb 2-3x faster than PHP.
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mko I've also been cooped up on "bedrest" for over a month without the ability to work. I needed to make some major progress and fast. lol. I was getting cranky. ;)
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bret mko++
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Loqi mko has 1 karma
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tantek so this is all new code then? not building upon an existing CMS?
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tantek and it's in *node*?
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mko Yeah. I'm building a Koa based application. Planning on open-sourcing it at the end of getting it all done.
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mko https://koajs.com
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mko Thanks, bret
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bret whao cool!
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bret how do you like koa? (vs express or whatnot)
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mko @tantek: I wanted to learn how generators worked and compare the systems with Express and their terrible callback loops.
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mko Koa is amazeballs.
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mko I've yet to get into performance testing and tuning, though. My favorite part of Express was how dynamic you could adjust the performance with code as opposed to just throwing more servers at it.
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mko Koa is purportedly better than Express in this regard, but I've yet to really test that assumption.
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tantek mko - sounds like you might have quite the competitive offering to Known ;)
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bret mko im slogging through express right now
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tantek interesting that you both started with Mongodb
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mko @tantek: MongoDb just makes the most sense for IndieWeb data. Our goal is to store our own documents and files, therefore use a document store as opposed to a relational database.
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aaronpk or you know, a document store like a filesystem ;)
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mko MongoDb is effectively a filesystem
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mko It's just got better APIs. ;)
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mko GridFS = <3
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aaronpk what I'd really like to see is a query interface for an actual filesystem. I'm actually considering building up an index API for my filesystem storage
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mko That'd be nice.
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tommorris loving that adactio thread
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tantek interesting that adactio is still posting separately to instagram.com/adactio - like completely disjoint sets of photos!
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tantek I wonder if this is deliberate segmentation for audience or ā€¦ ?
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aaronpk i should tell him about ownyourgram.com :)
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Loqi it is probable
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tantek what is ownyourgram?
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Loqi OwnYourGram.com is a service which streams your Instagram photos to your own site in real-time http://indiewebcamp.com/OwnYourGram
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bret micropub++
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Loqi micropub has 2 karma
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tantek.com created /ownyourgram (+25) "r" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk, I'll tell him, since you built it ;)
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aaronpk haha great
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tommorris Ever since I started posting drunk photos from bars, I locked down my Instagram to friends only. Some things arenā€™t for the open web.
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tantek !tell adactio I noticed you post *different* photos on instagram.com/adactio vs. adactio.com - is that deliberate? If not, check out http://indiewebcamp.com/OwnYourGram for automatically PESOSing Instagram photos onto your own site.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek how's that aaronpk, did I get it right?
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tantek ;)
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aaronpk sounds good
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aaronpk i'm sure he could implement a micropub endpoint in less than a day
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aaronpk especially if he already has a way to upload photos to his site
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tantek tommorris: pretty sure adactio's IG is public
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tantek aaronpk - yeah I agree, I think this is the lure for him to implement micropub
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bret mko is your project code online?
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mko Not yet. Hoping to have a build that I can put up on a staging server and feel comfortable pushing to GitHub by EOD tomorrow.
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tantek exciting!
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mko I almost didn't push NewBase60 and Whistler yesterday because I hadn't written tests for it, but decided to be a rebel with a cause.
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tantek go mko go! not going to distract you with any more questions :)
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tantek (aside: and this is why we work hard to make each individual piece of indieweb functionality / feature easy to incrementally code)
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tommorris oh, incidentally, I think I worked out how to do photo stories on my own site. itā€™s a truly radical idea: semi-static HTML.
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tommorris that is, write the stories as HTML and have a teensy bit of code that pre-processes that HTML to substitute in the responsive images.
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KartikPrabhu tommorris: I do that :P
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KartikPrabhu not static HTML but some Django templating tags
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tommorris so I could put in <img src=ā€œ{flickr url}ā€Ā alt=ā€œwhateverā€Ā /> and any other attributes and classes I need, and the pre-processer would replace that with appropriate <picture> tags.
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KartikPrabhu is still not sold on <picture>
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tommorris indiewebsters, if you know how to code, caseorganic is running a survey you ought to fill out. http://caseorganic.com/how-did-you-learn-to-program
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cweiske so the cgi-fpm patch gets now merged into php 5.4, 5.5 and 5.6
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cweiske so sooner or later an update will bring it to you
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gRegor` On step 4 of IndieAuth https://indieauth.com/developers, I presume it's a best practice that my site is https so it's secure end-to-end?
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voxpelli tommorris: using some cool Jekyll/Markdown magic or just parsing the plain old HTML and doing some magic of your own?
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tommorris well, markdown -> HTML -> some magic transformation rules of my own -> rendered HTML
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tantek.com edited /videos_about_the_indieweb (+182) "add PDF14 Why We Need the #IndieWeb video & slides" (view diff)
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tommorris I sort of realised that HTML+CSS was a fairly good language to describe the content and layout of a web page and that coming up with something else would be pointless.
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voxpelli +1 on that
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voxpelli When I googled the other day I found that there seems to exist some Jekyll plugins for it: https://github.com/robwierzbowski/jekyll-picture-tag But as I myself let gitHub Pages build my site I haven't had the oppurtinity to try any plugins yet
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snarfed hey Jeena, just curious, did you mean to remove the webmention endpoint on your web site?
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snarfed i see a rel-pingback using webmention.io, but that's it
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tantek is there a webmention endpoint discovery tester in indiewebify.me?
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snarfed tantek: kind of, http://indiewebify.me/#send-webmentions , but it's always hung/500ed on me since forever
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snarfed (barnaby etc know about it, filed in github)
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tantek darn
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snarfed i noticed Jeena's change because bridgy is now a lot more aggressive about telling you if you don't advertise an endpoint. e.g. https://www.brid.gy/twitter/jeena
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snarfed (and it's often opinionated :P e.g. https://www.brid.gy/facebook/100004140489734 )
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kylewm snarfed++ for educational error messages!
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Loqi snarfed has 32 karma
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: why is it telling me? https://www.brid.gy/twitter/kartik_prabhu
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: interesting. i actually don't see that you're advertising an endpoint on your home page
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snarfed looks like you only advertise on post pages. i guess i'd suggest adding it to your home page too
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kylewm interesting!
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snarfed (btw thanks kylewm!)
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kylewm is bridgy the only thing that cares about a rel=webmention on the homepage?
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snarfed nah homepage webmentions are a thing
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kylewm oh right
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snarfed http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention#homepage_webmentions
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kylewm but only a small number of people support those
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snarfed right
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: I'm advertising it only on pages that receive mentions.
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: right, i figured
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KartikPrabhu soon I might have homepage mentions too
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snarfed great!
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gRegor` receives home page mentions, but isn't doing anything with them yet
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kylewm heh, me too... i write them to a file
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@adactio Writing code to POSSE my photos to Flickr. http://indiewebcamp.com/posse https://twitter.com/adactio/status/486617601167339521/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/486617601167339521)
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Loqi [mention] http://www.matthewgraybosch.com/2014/07/07/screw-digital-sharecropping-im-getting-a-posse/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] http://www.matthewgraybosch.com/2014/07/07/screw-digital-sharecropping-im-getting-a-posse/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] http://www.matthewgraybosch.com/2014/07/07/screw-digital-sharecropping-im-getting-a-posse/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/WordPress (webmention)
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@adactio @iChris No, Iā€™m rolling my own. But the underlying technologies are the same: webmentions, h-entry, etc. (twitter.com/_/status/486620408867979265)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/adactio/486617601167339521/649143 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/posse (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/adactio/486617601167339521/1432439216 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/posse (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/adactio/486617601167339521/10154752 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/posse (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/adactio/486617601167339521/486620408867979265 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/posse (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/adactio/486617601167339521/12534 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/posse (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/adactio/486617601167339521/14274220 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/posse (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/adactio/486617601167339521/486618976349192192 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/posse (webmention)
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Loqi adactio: tantek left you a message 1 hour, 54 minutes ago: I noticed you post *different* photos on instagram.com/adactio vs. adactio.com - is that deliberate? If not, check out http://indiewebcamp.com/OwnYourGram for automatically PESOSing Instagram photos onto your own site.
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adactio tantek: Thanks for the heads-up about OwnYourGram. Sounds like I need to start by setting up a micropub endpoint on adactio.com
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mko adactio: You're really on a roll today. I think you're the majority of the Loqi mentions today. :-)
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Loqi dude
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aaronpk benwerd: community site for yxyy? what exactly does that mean?
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adactio mko: Yeah, I was procrastinating at work today. ;-)
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mko You've certainly got a bit of buzz generated for IWC.
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aaronpk benwerd: oh man I've got all sorts of ideas for this...
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tantek aaronpk - presumably to counter or complement the YxYY community *app*
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tantek (iOS)
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tantek adactio++ for owning his photos!
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Loqi adactio has 3 karma
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aaronpk I want to sign in to the yxyy site with my domain, then add the yxyy site as a syndication option for my own posts
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benwerd aaronpk: all ideas gratefully accepted :)
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benwerd boom
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aaronpk then the site basically becomes a Planet YxYY site
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tantek I want what aaronpk said except no per post UI other than hashtagging my post #yxyy or #yayy
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aaronpk (we're gonna need a /planet page)
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tantek can we pick a less RSS-aggregator-nerdy term please?
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aaronpk tantek: totally, that'd be up to your site to syndicate to it that way!
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aaronpk well it could go both ways...
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tantek aaronpk - I just want the YxYY community site to subscribe to my existing PuSH notifications
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aaronpk yeah that'd be easier
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tantek automatically once I sign-in
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tantek and then selectively pull in just the #yxyy or #yayy posts
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Loqi yay!
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aaronpk but only the #yxyy tagged posts?
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aaronpk do you provide a per-tag feed?
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aaronpk cause it could already subscribe to mine http://aaronparecki.com/tag/yxyy
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tantek no - I want it to do that based on content
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tantek just as people are already used to doing with LinkedIn #li tweets or #fb tweets
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aaronpk ah ok
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tantek same UI that people are already used to from Twitter
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tantek no need for any additional feeds, setup, anything
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tantek got to always be thinking *as good as or better UX than silos*
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tantek for every feature
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aaronpk subtle difference: while I totally want all my posts tagged #yxyy to be syndicated there, I absolutely don't want to ever add a #li or #fb tag to my posts to syndicate there
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tantek adactio - your photo posts are amazing. seriously - nicely done with integrating another post type into your composite stream.
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aaronpk um bad english sorry. 1st "there" is the yxyy site, 2nd "there" is linkedin/facebook
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tantek aaronpk, sure, because those are silos not community sites
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tantek yup, got it
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tantek *generic* silos at that
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tantek (LI used to be professional-like but has attempted to genercize itself into becoming yet another Twitter clone)
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adactio tantek: cheers! Technically, they're a subset of the 'notes' post types on adactio.com, but I'm already thinking of ways to display them as their own thing: http://adactio.com/notes/photos
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tantek adactio - huh, until you showed me that URL I thought they were their own post type - purely by their photo-centric presentation
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tantek from the user perspective that is
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/adactio/486617601167339521/18527454 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/posse (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/adactio/486617601167339521/11628 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/posse (webmention)
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adactio tantek: Yeah, I think in the "stream" (front page) view, that's how they'll come across (as their own thing), which is kind of what I want.
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adactio tantek: but from a URL-design perspective, they still sit under /notes (for now)
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tantek will be interesting to see the comments and likes/faves interspersed on your photo posts from both the Twitter and Flickr POSSE copies
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tantek and hopefully eventually Instagram as well
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adactio aaronpk: ++ for OwnYourGram (looks like exactly what I need)
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adactio aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 518 karma
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aaronpk awesome!
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tantek adactio - I notice that the "large" photo you link to on your site is like 800x600 - do you save/host/serve the full resolution anywhere?
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tantek e.g. http://adactio.com/images/uploaded/6978/large.jpg
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tantek also that path made me think "images" were their own post type
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adactio tantek: yes, the original-sized image is always stored under /original.jpg
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tantek a-ha but just not linked then?
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adactio tantek: http://adactio.com/images/uploaded/6978/original.jpg
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tantek good timing :)
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adactio tantek: it is linked from the note page: http://adactio.com/notes/6978 (clicking the image)
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tantek that's odd - I thought clicking the image gave me the large.jpg
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tantek now I wonder how I got there
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tantek I was thinking you would presumably POSSE full resolution to Flickr, and then use them as a full resolution cache (rather than burning your own bandwidth)
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adactio tantek: Yeah, both Twitter and Flickr get the original full-size image.
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KartikPrabhu tantek: is that a good idea? I've been using G+ to host my photos for me... have been thinking of moving away but photo hosting is hard
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gRegor` aaronpk: On step 4 of IndieAuth https://indieauth.com/developers, I presume it's a best practice that my site is https so it's secure end-to-end? Or should I not be too concerned about MITM server-to-server?
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adactio tantek: There's three levels of clicking from the home page "stream": small -> large -> original
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aaronpk gRegor`: yes https
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tantek adactio - I'll be interested to know how this impacts your bandwidth bill (if any)
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tantek a/any/at all
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tantek oops
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adactio tantek: yeah, we'll see. I may have to stop linking to the original-sized photos if (for example) Google regularly spiders all those links.
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tantek or just block bots from the full resolution
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tantek pixels are for humans, silly robot
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adactio tantek: yeah
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adactio I don't think that many humans will click through to the full-sized image, so my main bandwidth/cost concern is around robots.
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tantek adactio FWIW most of my bandwidth currently goes to anonymous bots pretending to be IE5.5
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tantek hmm - could even put full resolution photos behind an indieauth wall - that'd block bots quite effectively
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mko And humans, I'm afraid.
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adactio tantek: Or I could only link to the full-sized versions on Flickr (for as long as Flickr exists ...I'd still have the possibility of switching back to my own full-sized versions if/when Flickr goes down).
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tantek adactio indeed. you could even use a subdomain mapping to hide that
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tantek original.photo.adactio.com/
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snarfed adactio++ for doing photo post types manually
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Loqi adactio has 4 karma
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snarfed (late to the party)
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snarfed i do the same on https://snarfed.org/
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tantek snarfed - what do you mean by "manually"?
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snarfed still haven't found a solid UX reason to distinguish post types muchā€¦but i know i'm in the minority
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tantek snarfed - hey if it works for you :)
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snarfed tantek: it was a euphemism for not at all
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adactio snarfed: I really like the way you've got galleries.
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snarfed ie posting pictures but not bothering with invisible metadata for their post type
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tantek aaronpk, a while ago I remember you supported special reply-contexts when replying to photos
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snarfed adactio: thanks! that's mostly http://www.nextgen-gallery.com/ . i just tweaked css a bit
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aaronpk tantek: that was actually just a mockup it turns out
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aaronpk i still want to tho
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adactio snarfed: Works great. https://snarfed.org/wedding (for example) is terrific: definitely the kind of thing I'd like to have on my own site at some point (instead of using Flickr to organise photos into sets).
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tantek ah darnit! just found the permalink: http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2013/04/30/3/
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Jeena snarfed no I didn't I'll have a look at it
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tantek aaronpk! that should be in brainstorming then!
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aaronpk yeah now where did I put that mockup...
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tantek on the wiki
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aaronpk i think i'm past the brainstorming stage for it, pretty sure I know how I want to do it and just need to do it at this point
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GWG It is too hot out there.
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snarfed adactio: thanks!
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GWG What's going on in here?
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aaronpk here it is http://indiewebcamp.com/reply-context-examples#reply_to_a_photo
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tantek.com edited /reply-context-examples (+217) "move reply to a photo to a brainstorming section" (view diff)
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XgF snarfed: I really like a distinction between "note" and "article"
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Jeena but snarfed I do advertise webmention support:
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GWG aaronpk: Very nice.
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Jeena Ć¢Å¾Å“ jeena@Lala ~ curl -I https://jeena.net/notes/209
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Jeena HTTP/1.1 200 OK
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Jeena Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2014 22:08:42 GMT
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Jeena Content-Type: text/html
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Jeena charset=utf-8
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Jeena Link: <https://jeena.net/webmentions>
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Jeena rel="webmention"
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snarfed Jeena: ah, same problem as KartikPrabhu then. you don't advertise it on your home page
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snarfed np, totally ok that way
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snarfed XgF: i'll bite. why?
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tantek.com edited /reply-context-examples (+140) "/* reply to a photo */ note is in reply to a silo post (IG), add a link to a reply to an indieweb photo post as well" (view diff)
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Jeena ok, I see yeah, but actually I could advertise it on my homepage too, I even have some code in place to handle this special case
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XgF snarfed: It lets me make the article appearence "more weighty"
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XgF i.e. it helps the content stand out
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XgF Plus you might experiment with things like making the article text be in a serif font for higher readability
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tantek edits the wiki page for reply-context to a photo so aaronpk can focus on actually building it ;)
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snarfed XgF: ah, for rendering style differently. sure, i do that too, e.g. i omit title for notes
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snarfed but i just do that by omitting the title
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snarfed anyway. agreed
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snarfed (for the logs, wiki discussions on this: http://indiewebcamp.com/posts#New_Post_Types , http://indiewebcamp.com/Semantics_Of_Article-Note_Distinction )
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/adactio/486617601167339521/185375498 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/posse (webmention)
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tantek snarfed, you do realize the irony of someone that uses the ActivityStreams data model internally actually not preferring different post types at the user level?
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snarfed tantek: sure!
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tantek (which is what AS was designed to solve - different presentation of different post types ;) )
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kylewm I've just added a separate "photo" post type (nothing there yet). I resisted but now I like it much better than having a normal note with an <img> tag in it linking to an arbitrary file
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tantek manually runs /authorship discovery on adactio's photo post
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snarfed tantek: maybe i manage to sleep at night because i'm equally disinterested in all schemas/taxonomies/markups. i just blindly use whichever tool seems best at the time :P
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snarfed does *not* recommend that approach, for the record
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XgF should probably start adding more post type inteligence to his ActivityStreams consuming software
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tantek interesting, no photo of adactio discoverable via /authorship
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adactio tantek: Is /authorship a URL convention for adding to post endpoints?
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aaronpk heh no, here, /authorship refers to the page http://indiewebcamp.com/authorship
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aaronpk we've gotten in the habit of referring to wiki pages without the domain :/
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aaronpk the IRC logs auto-link them later tho
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XgF The only post type I care about at present is video =/
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tantek adactio, what aaronpk said, e.g. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-07-08#t1404857911
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adactio aaronpk: Ah, I see! My h-card isn't being picked up. I'll have to work on that.
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tantek adactio, no your h-card has no photo or log
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tantek s/log/logo
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Loqi tantek meant to say: adactio, no your h-card has no photo or logo
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tantek however your about page *does* link to an icon
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adactio tantek: Oh, right.
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tantek adactio - you could use <html class="h-card"> on your http://adactio.com/about/myself/
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tantek and then class=logo on your existing icon.png
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tantek e.g. <link class="u-logo" rel="shortcut icon apple-touch-icon" type="image/png" href="/icon.png" />
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KartikPrabhu is class=logo a thing?
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tantek KartikPrabhu: no I mistyped - meant u-logo
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kylewm s/u-logo/u-photo ?
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tantek kylewm supposed to pick up either
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kylewm oh my
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KartikPrabhu I don't think I knew about u-logo either
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tantek http://microformats.org/wiki/h-card#Properties
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tantek and http://indiewebcamp.com/comment-presentation#logo/photo
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tantek s/#/##
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Loqi tantek meant to say: and http://indiewebcamp.com/comment-presentation##logo/photo
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tantek.com edited /Posts_about_the_IndieWeb (+177) "Screw Digital Sharecropping. Iā€™m Getting a Posse." (view diff)
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adactio Hmmm ...I've already got a meta element with my name on it, and a link element with my logo. If I put class="h-card" on the head element, and added p-name to the meta element, and u-logo to the link element ...are any parsers going to pick that up?
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tantek double-checks the microformats2 parsing spec
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KartikPrabhu i think mf2py will
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adactio (although it would then be entirely hidden data ...totally against the spirit of microformats)
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tantek adactio - so that's probably why I left it out of the microformats2-parsing spec
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tantek "it" meaning special treating <link> and <meta> to look in their attributes
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tantek and no one had done it yet - though it was always theoretically possible
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tantek and yes, marking up the *visible* version of the data is always better
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adactio tantek: Makes sense: the chances of those properties rotting (because they're invisible) are higher than if they were exposed.
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tantek so you already have your name visible - so keep the p-name on that
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tantek however, in this case, the design of your site does not show a visible logo/photo
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tantek so should we allow <link class="u-logo" rel="shortcut icon apple-touch-icon" type="image/png" href="/icon.png" /> accordingly?
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tantek since microformats shouldn't be dictating the visual presentation of your site/pages
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KartikPrabhu oops my bad mf2py does the right thing and does not pick up <link> s
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tantek and there's less chance of that rotting since it's semi-visible
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tantek to users who "add to home screen" on any mobile device
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tantek whereas meta author is pure metacrap
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tantek for that reason I'd be willing to change this step for u- parsing:
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tantek if a.u-x[href] or area.u-x[href]
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tantek to
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tantek if a.u-x[href] or area.u-x[href] or link.u-x[href]
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tantek but only if we had a real world example that needed it
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/adactio/486617601167339521/65617607 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/posse (webmention)
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tantek the other precedent we have for <link> tags in microformats parsing is that we already parse them for "rel" values.
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tantek FB changed their event list page again!
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kylewm and apple-shortcut-icon has the advantage of not being invisible
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tantek kylewm, well, shortcut icon for desktop browsers and standards compliant mobile browsers, and apple-touch-icon for Mobile Safari
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@DaveCZombie RT @adactio: Writing code to POSSE my photos to Flickr. http://indiewebcamp.com/posse https://twitter.com/adactio/status/486617601167339521/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/486648462990381056)
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@ludovicchabant "Why We Need the IndieWeb" https://www.youtube.com/ THIS. YES. (twitter.com/_/status/486648930554626048)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/repost/twitter/adactio/486617601167339521/486648462990381056 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/posse (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/adactio/486617601167339521/2149850018 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/posse (webmention)
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