2014-07-12 UTC
# 00:00 hmans I get that IndieAuth won't even forward me to Twitter if it doesn't see the rel link on the Twitter profile
# 00:01 hmans but if I'm the legitimate user, that is an inconvenience at best
# 00:01 hmans and if I'm an attacker in control of twitter.com/hmans, I can just set the bio to whatever.
# 00:01 rascul if you gain control of someone's twitter account, that alone is not enough for indieauth
# 00:02 mko Right. You'd still need control over their domain.
# 00:02 mko Granted, you could IndieAuth as the person using a different domain, but it'd be a different domain.
# 00:02 rascul because you need the rel=me stuff on the domain
# 00:03 hmans Well, if someone "finds" my Twitter password, they can log into my indieAuth stuff, no matter how much IndieAuth checks that my Twitter account links back to hmans.io.
# 00:03 hmans I'm just trying to grok this. I'm probably missing something important.
# 00:03 rascul if the twitter/domain stuff is already linked, then the twitter account would give you the access
# 00:03 snarfed to be fair, indieauth isn't really trying to protect (too much) against someone hijacking your twitter account
# 00:03 rascul twitter security is probably outside the scope of indieauth
# 00:04 snarfed indieauth wants to A) assert you own a domain and B) use a third party auth provider to do that
# 00:04 hmans My thinking is simply that the part of IndieAuth where it checks twitter.com/hmans having a rel="me" to hmans.io doesn't add anything. :/
# 00:04 rascul it's just one of several mechanisms for using indieauth
# 00:05 snarfed hmans: understood. trying to think of/remember the answer :P
# 00:05 hmans It's sort of bugging me a bit because it's stopping me from using twitter.com/hmans for both hmans.io and hmans.de
# 00:05 rascul eh but even the pgp stuff has some issues that was discussed here in the past
# 00:07 snarfed hmans: yeah, you're discovering that indieweb is heavily biased toward a single "identity" domain per person. more than one will fail in lots of places, unfortunately
# 00:08 hmans It's just that I think that particular part of IndieAuth serves no value. :P~
# 00:08 hmans But that's me being all German and stuff, ignore me, we're horrible.
# 00:09 rascul there's several alternatives to twitter for indieauth, feel free to use (or don't) whichever ones you prefer
# 00:09 rascul sms, email might be more interesting than social network auth
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# 00:11 hmans Yeah, I'm not saying something is inherently wrong with IndieAuth.
# 00:11 hmans I'm just confused by the backlink checking.
# 00:12 rascul aaronpk is the one who made it and can tell the most about it
# 00:13 hmans I'm very eager to do something with IndieAuth... on #pants, I don't ask users for email addresses, all they get is a password, so I'm trying to come up with creative ways to authenticate them without even that (or if they forget it).
# 00:14 hmans Some have been bugging me about a "password reset" feature, but that's sort of hard to implement without an email address to send stuff to.
# 00:14 hmans So the direction I'm going in now is to ask them for links to their "other" profiles on the web and rel=me them for IndieAuth.
# 00:15 rascul iirc there's some potential issues with the pgp method, but i don't recall right now
# 00:16 hmans Is there anyone wanting to give #pants a try? I'm kind of craving feedback.
# 00:17 mko lol. I meant more like the technology stack, but you know, whatever works.
# 00:17 hmans mko, platform wise? Ruby on Rails, which is a horrible choice for what #pants does, but it's what I'm fastest with.
# 00:17 hmans I didn't have indieweb on the radar when I started, so some parts of it now are indieweb (lots of webmention stuff), while others aren't.
# 00:17 mko Whatever works. You're not the only one doing RoR.
# 00:18 mko If it was Node.js or PHP, I'd have given it a onceover but I'm not set up for RoR right now.
# 00:18 hmans KevinMarks, decentralized blogging/social network thing. Powers hmans.io & a bunch of other sites.
# 00:18 hmans mko, I'm happy to set you up on my server. All you need is CNAME a host to pants.social.
# 00:19 hmans #pants is designed so a single install can host multiple sites, but users can eventually migrate servers without losing data.
# 00:20 hmans The idea is that ideally, small communities will form where someone with a better understanding of tech hosts an instances for all their friends.
# 00:20 mko I like it. And that person wears the pants in the family. Or. Wait. What?
# 00:20 hmans user names are just domain/host names, so every user name and post ID contains all the information needed for communication, no matter where stuff is located.
# 00:21 fr0zen nice tool to generate visual identity: www.logoshi.com
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# 00:22 hmans I'm trying to, on a higher level, make it look and work like a "normal" social network, hiding the decentralized underpinnings for those who just want to "use" it.
# 00:23 hmans KevinMarks, yeah, I'm using "following" in the code... but it's not a good user-facing term.
# 00:27 hmans I was sure even Twitter was calling them "friends", but I was wrong.
# 00:27 fr0zen I liked it too. Simple and effective.
# 00:27 hmans Yeah, I get that "friends" kind of implies mutual.
# 00:28 hmans I'll give it some more thought. Early days. :)~
# 00:28 KartikPrabhu hmans: let me know if you find a good terminology. I am not sure I like any of the existing ones
# 00:30 snarfed KartikPrabhu: not any more, you can follow people on fb
# 00:30 KartikPrabhu aah ok. I avoid using FB mostly... so all I know is I get "invitations" to candy crush something from my "friends"
# 00:34 mko Want to see something awesome? Check out http://aprilzero.com -- beautiful quantified self site. Not sure how much of the data is liberated from silos yet. Just found the site.
# 00:44 hmans A hundred years ago I built a wiki called WakkaWiki that still has active forks out there, I think
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# 00:49 mko Sweet. Might be interesting to see how different my crawled self looks before and after my website update.
# 00:53 mko Oh my. Java. I haven't touched Java in almost 4 years.
# 00:54 voxpelli snarfed: nice – mine currently don't pull any hcard data out, just assembles the relations
# 00:54 voxpelli (had to install java now to get neo4j working locally :P)
# 00:59 gRegor` Hmm, the checkmention test with in-reply-to and h-cite makes quite a different parsed array than I set my code up for. Trying to figure out how to best deal with that with php-mf2.
# 00:59 voxpelli mko: the challenges in crawling rel-me:s is btw sites like Flickr – which has rel-me:s between each and every page of a user
# 01:01 gRegor` I guess i need to check for a 'properties' key inside the in-reply-to and if it's found, dig deeper
# 01:03 voxpelli KevinMarks: Thanks for the link, will try to look into that eventually
# 01:03 gRegor` Has anybody solved this in their mf2 parsing?
# 01:03 KevinMarks sgnodemapper was written by bradfitz for the google rel spider
# 01:03 mko voxpelli: I see what you mean about Flickr. It's going through all of my damn Flickr contacts pages.
# 01:04 KevinMarks to weed out the links on big sites that end up all being the same
# 01:04 gRegor` I'm on PHP and using php-mf2. It's a fine parser. My question is about using various output
# 01:04 mko Huzzah. IndieAuth fully integrated into the prototype of my site including tiered authentication and auto-generating user profiles.
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# 01:05 mko Oh, I meant to see what output they were using.
# 01:05 KevinMarks absorbing it into your relspider would make a lot of sense (and it may need a bit of updating)
# 01:05 voxpelli KevinMarks: Would be great to reuse that effort! I guess I should check with adactio about that pattern as well as he is doing the same on Huffduffer
# 01:06 KevinMarks also it's in JS because BradFitz was psychic and knew that was the future in 2007
# 01:07 voxpelli KevinMarks: nice! I fully expetced it to be java or something
# 01:07 voxpelli mko: I'm btw only running a small demo instance of the relspider right now – so it will soon be full again :P The neo4j instance can only handle a 1000 nodes/url:s right now
# 01:08 mko No worries. I only tried it out on my Twitter URL out of curiosity.
# 01:10 KevinMarks the 80:20 tradeoff was that the big sites have well-known URL patterns, and so you cna short-circuit full crawls, whereas the little ones are more likely to have proper xfn and links
# 01:11 KevinMarks also, big sites tend to 200 instead of 302/301 when you have duplicate content
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# 01:33 KartikPrabhu anyone have good suggestions/articles on designing archive pages for posts?
# 01:33 GWG Not necessarily articles/suggestions
# 01:34 GWG How should an archive page differ from your home page presentation is the first question you want to ask?
# 01:34 GWG Many sites have the same basic design
# 01:35 KartikPrabhu I want to have a page that people can use to explore my articles, find new ones etc...
# 01:35 GWG Well, if it is identical, you just solved your presentation problem
# 01:35 GWG Many people have it one and the same.
# 01:36 KevinMarks what blogger does (wordpress is similar) is a reasonable pattern
# 01:36 KartikPrabhu KevinMarks: my article pages themselves are standalone, because I post on different themes so "prev" and "next" makes little sense
# 01:36 GWG KevinMarks: I think of things from a Wordpress POV
# 01:37 KartikPrabhu KevinMarks: do you think a paginated feed helps/encourages people to explore more posts?
# 01:37 GWG KartikPrabhu: You don't just have paginated feeds, you also have infinite scroll
# 01:37 GWG That is why I switched to pagination
# 01:38 GWG But, do you want an archive that is a list view, or shows the full articles?
# 01:38 KartikPrabhu I want to approach this from the following POV "Some one has landed on the archive page. I want the archive page designed in such a way that it encourages them to find articles/themes they want to read about"
# 01:39 Loqi gives KartikPrabhu the archive page designed in such a way that it encourages them to find articles
# 01:39 gRegor` Loqi to the rescue
# 01:39 GWG Well, you can have a subject based archive
# 01:40 gRegor` Overarching categories might be more useful for what you're talking about.
# 01:40 gRegor` Or "Related articles" at the bottom of an article.
# 01:40 gRegor` I think people are more likely to find interesting content on your site via ^^ instead of an archives page
# 01:40 GWG I've been looking at archive views as different presentations than standard
# 01:41 KartikPrabhu particularly using webmentions from my posts to my other posts to link thematically similar articles
# 01:41 gRegor` That's a great idea
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# 01:46 KartikPrabhu KevinMarks: sure you could cite yourself using a fragmention and then make it appear as marginalia to the quoted post... :)
# 01:47 KevinMarks I'm thinking that the link+blockquote pattern is another fragmention-like thing
# 01:48 KevinMarks so munging those into fragmentions may be interesting (rather than making marginalia more complex)
# 01:49 KartikPrabhu KevinMarks: if youhave absolute links then yes! I use relative ones for my own website which are trickier
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# 01:55 Loqi KevinMarks meant to say: I actually like the hierarchical thingy in my blog sidebar
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# 01:56 KartikPrabhu has no sidebar. And chronological arrangement makes little sense as my post themes vary widly
# 01:58 KartikPrabhu it makes sense for me too if *I* want to look back. But no so much (I think) for people who come for specific topics
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# 02:02 bnvk snarfed: you still up for coming out this eve?
# 02:03 KevinMarks you could install one of those "read this next" plugins like every damn site on the web has
# 02:04 KevinMarks the bloody NYT shows that in preference to the article on mobile
# 02:04 KartikPrabhu KevinMarks: ergh! also I have a very custom backend so no plugins unless I write it myself :P
# 02:04 snarfed bnvk: timing is getting tight for tonight. are you in sf?
# 02:05 KartikPrabhu KevinMarks: I hate those things as much as the "5 mins to finish reading" stuff
# 02:06 KevinMarks right, but I'm imagining a webmention-driven distributed future
# 02:07 KartikPrabhu KevinMarks: I have been thinking about those too. Incoming webmentions which are not replies or other could be included in "related posts" too
# 02:09 bnvk snarfed: yah, in SF heading to Dolores park soon, then eating.
# 02:09 bnvk we could meet tomorrow before EFF hackathon if ya dig
# 02:12 snarfed bnvk: i dig! anywhere between the mission and glen park works for me. let me know if you want me to pick a place
# 02:21 GWG I thought that was sort of a short bio.
# 02:26 bnvk snarfed: ok, there's a nice cafe on Folsom / 10th called Sextant wanna say 10 AM ?
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# 02:29 bnvk snarfed: ok, there's a nice cafe on Folsom / 10th called Sextant wanna say 10 AM ?
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# 05:51 Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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# 05:58 anvw i do, but as yet no h-card or whatever..
# 06:00 KartikPrabhu anvw: nice! if you put some rel=me markup you can log in to the indiewebcamp wiki!
# 06:00 anvw will do, just getting my head around the indieweb thing ..
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# 07:36 indie-visitor nick/ anvw
# 07:37 anvw anyone from Sydney Aus on here?
# 07:42 bear the irc people list shows a couple of folks from your part of the world, but they don't seem to be online
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# 14:28 Loqi aral: barnabywalters left you a message 5 days, 5 hours ago: looks like IWCUK is overfull — any idea if the venue is likely to be happy to accommodate one or two extra people?
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# 17:47 gRegor` Re: author spoofing on webmentions, I think I am going to fetch the h-card from the author's claimed URL and see if it matches the claimed author name. If it doesn't, match (or no h-card is found), it will be flagged as potentially a spoof. Does that sound good, or is there a simpler/more efficient way I'm not thinking of? Reference: http://gregorlove.com/2013/05/1154/#w80 which was sent...
# 17:49 GWG Why would someone spoof an author?
# 17:52 mayuresh Is it theoretically possible to implement POSSE using JavaScript (client side)?
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# 17:53 gRegor` Because it's the internet. I don't know everyone's reasons, but trolling, spamming, or maligning someone are all foreseeable reasons. It's not a problem currently, but it could be.
# 17:54 gRegor` My wm implementation allows me to moderate them before being displayed, so adding this check isn't too difficult.
# 17:56 GWG mayuresh, all things are possible
# 17:56 gRegor` mayuresh: I'm not sure. I suppose you could have JS open the posting interface for the silos, at least. Not sure about pre-populating the content.
# 17:58 gRegor` I think Twitter does/did allow you to pre-populate a tweet via URL parameters, and you had to click "tweet" to send it. They might have locked that down for spam abuse though.
# 17:59 mayuresh cool, thanks for that kylewm
# 18:00 kylewm I found CORS to be a massive hindrance for doing much fun stuff client-side
# 18:01 kylewm (i.e. you would not be able to invoke the twitter API directly from client-side javascript)
# 18:03 mayuresh again, thanks for the tip about CORS. :)
# 18:04 GWG I need to fix some of the last of my lingering issues so that I can deploy my new design.
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# 18:04 mayuresh hello tantek.
# 18:05 tantek greetings - just on here briefly to check the logs before heading to the pool
# 18:05 tantek I will say one thing, Portable Contacts (PoCo) is super-obsolete
# 18:05 tantek sad to hear people (re)-using it in this day and age
# 18:05 tantek it's been obsoleted by vCard4, h-card, h-card in JSON etc.
# 18:06 tantek and no one is maintaining PoCo - very bad sign for any standard
# 18:07 tantek !tell snarfed won't have time to update your h-card issues til probably next Monday/Tuesday
# 18:07 Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
# 18:07 mayuresh kartik: site work progressing slowly
# 18:08 GWG My day involves cleaning and development.
# 18:08 mayuresh KartikPrabhu: you anywhere in or around Mumbai?
# 18:09 GWG tantek, I procrastinate too often.
# 18:09 gRegor` KartikPrabhu: check the scrollback for my comment re: author spoofing and let me know what you think.
# 18:09 KartikPrabhu mayuresh: I am now in Chicago... though I lived in Mumbai for a long time
# 18:10 mayuresh are there any IWC people from Mumbai, still in Mumbai?
# 18:10 tantek !tell mko last I checked/downloaded, the FB export was HTML + microformats
# 18:10 Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
# 18:11 GWG mayuresh, if not, time to recruit some.
# 18:11 mayuresh KartikPrabhu: I know of Sandeep Shetty, actually he is the reason I got to know about the IWC.
# 18:11 KartikPrabhu is excited that people living in Brazil and India are getting involved now
# 18:11 mayuresh GWG: yeah, time to recruit some...
# 18:13 KartikPrabhu mayuresh: maybe start a homebrew website club in Mumbai... that'll be pretty aswesome
# 18:13 GWG I need to see about an HWC around here someday.
# 18:13 tantek hmm - lots in the logs from yesterday but very little of it made it into collecting examples or brainstorms on the wiki.
# 18:13 mayuresh KartikPrabhu: yeah, that would be really awesome...
# 18:14 Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
# 18:14 tantek especially any/all URLs mentioned that seemed to spur any discussion
# 18:15 KartikPrabhu tantek: I mean to add some of that to the wiki... thanks for the reminder
# 18:15 mayuresh hey, this Loqi thing is pretty cool
# 18:16 mayuresh is there any documentation about it?
# 18:16 tantek !tell mayuresh, gRegor`, kylewm instead of proprietary Twitter intents, please implement /webactions and only use Twitter intents as proprietary fallback.
# 18:16 Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
# 18:17 tantek mayuresh - great that you know Sandeep Shetty! we're big fans of him here. :)
# 18:17 tantek kylewm, particularly, lots of rel=me/rel=author stuff not connected to a specific use-case or user-flow - that tends to be frustrating
# 18:18 Loqi gRegor`: tantek left you a message 1 minute ago: instead of proprietary Twitter intents, please implement /webactions and only use Twitter intents as proprietary fallback.
# 18:18 mayuresh tantek: yeah, Sandeep is a cool dude, have known him for a while now.
# 18:18 Loqi mayuresh: tantek left you a message 1 minute ago: instead of proprietary Twitter intents, please implement /webactions and only use Twitter intents as proprietary fallback.
# 18:18 tantek because you can have theoretical discussions about formats and protocols and go in circles all day and never get anywhere - or worse, get distracted by someone's abstract notion of "complete" or "ideal" which has nothing to do with anything a user does or wants.
# 18:18 GWG tantek, I think webactions have an issue because they require a plugin in the browser to work.
# 18:19 tantek all new tags require a browser change or something the browser to work
# 18:19 gRegor` That's an easier barrier than ever-changing APIs
# 18:19 gRegor` e.g. Twitter decides to change how their web intents work and your software breaks
# 18:19 tantek the point is, by using the <action> tag you allow for that re-use, even if it's only by barnabywalters and a few others
# 18:19 GWG There must be a better fallback though
# 18:19 tantek GWG - could be - you can figure one out using your own site!
# 18:20 tantek GWG - but for now the point is, INSTEAD of *only* Twitter actions (intents), use webactions <action> tags, and then move those Twitter actions inside
# 18:20 GWG tantek, maybe the JS route. I really need to pick up some javascript
# 18:20 tantek it's an incremental improvement - it makes no claims to being perfect
# 18:21 tantek GWG - if you're using <action> tags, add yourself to the IndieWeb Examples section on the /webactions page listing those like myself, barnaby, aaronpk etc. that are also publshing <action> tags.
# 18:21 GWG I meant in the absence of native support.
# 18:21 tantek and with that caught up on logs and late for the #indieweb meetup in the pool.
# 18:21 KartikPrabhu but it might be good to have a JS that fallbacks to Twitter stuff so that anyone can include it on their site for people without browser extensions
# 18:22 GWG I want a picture of an in pool Indieweb meet up. That sounds atypical
# 18:22 Loqi kylewm: tantek left you a message 5 minutes ago: instead of proprietary Twitter intents, please implement /webactions and only use Twitter intents as proprietary fallback.
# 18:22 Loqi gives GWG a picture of an in pool Indieweb meet up
# 18:23 GWG KartikPrabhu, maybe more than Twitter.
# 18:24 gRegor` I guess we had a demo of that at /2014 Portland, actually. Johannes' remote pool monitor
# 18:27 mayuresh alrighty, time for me to hit bed, see you all tomorrow.
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# 20:40 Loqi snarfed: tantek left you a message 2 hours, 33 minutes ago: won't have time to update your h-card issues til probably next Monday/Tuesday
# 20:47 mko !tell tantek: Re Facebook export: It's now a crazy div soup with no discernible microformats, schema, or microdata.
# 20:47 Loqi mko: tantek left you a message 2 hours, 36 minutes ago: last I checked/downloaded, the FB export was HTML + microformats
# 20:47 Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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# 21:16 SamB I get the impression that OAuth and OpenID are kind of a mess
# 21:16 SamB at least, it sure seems like a lot of things have to have special support for individual providers. What's up with that?
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# 21:23 gRegor` GWG: div-soup, a mess of <div>s and other HTML, making it difficult to extract anything meaningful
# 21:24 gRegor` Though looking at the Facebook example mko posted, it wouldn't be too hard to extract just the <img> element.
# 21:24 gRegor` Extracting comments on it would be harder though
# 21:27 KevinMarks well, if it is uniform per post type you probably can get something approximating the right thing
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# 21:51 Loqi tantek: mko left you a message 1 hour, 3 minutes ago: Re Facebook export: It's now a crazy div soup with no discernible microformats, schema, or microdata.
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# 22:31 mko gRegor` KevinMarks GWG: The div soup is severe. I've identified the patterns that are needed to extract, creating proper RegExps for extraction will likely be a more tedious process.
# 22:32 gRegor` I was thinking of using the DOM, not regex. Madness lies that way. :)
# 22:33 mko For example, to extract e-content out of a wall post, you have to do the following: extract from wall.htm all content within the p immediately following the first </div> until div.meta
# 22:34 mko The DOM might be the better way to go, but with it being a 10MB text file, I feel like the number of nodes might choke the browser, whereas consuming the file and using RegExp to extract the contents won't.
# 22:34 mko !tell KevinMarks: Both Google and Twitter provide very nicely formatted exports.
# 22:34 Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
# 22:35 mko KartikPrabhu: Yeah. Even mf1 would be useful, and I'd totally just extract that via the DOM.
# 22:35 mko Just run a JS parser in the DOM, and it'd export just fine.
# 22:36 SamB I guess browsers don't provide callback-based parsing APIs ...
# 22:36 mko But this is a serious mess. Most of it is unterminated text content run-on with block level content and a handful of tables thrown in for good measure.
# 22:36 snarfed mko etc: i'm totally a broken record here, but remind me why you're not using the api?
# 22:37 mko snarfed: The export contains all of your content, while the API seemed to be incomplete in what you could access.
# 22:37 gRegor` I was thinking PHP's DOMDocument or equiv for Node/others.
# 22:38 gRegor` Or that ^ snarfed
# 22:38 snarfed mko: fair. the api is extensive, but the dump probably has more. got a specific, example, out of curiosity?
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# 22:39 snarfed you don't know which fb object type they are, out of curiosity?
# 22:39 mko I'm looking on the Graph API right now actually.
# 22:40 mko Appears to be post type on the API. They've improved it for sure since the last time I used it, then.
# 22:41 snarfed mko: probably so. i'd definitely do that then. the dump is really the wrong tool for the job
# 22:41 mko My other concern is rate-limiting.
# 22:42 snarfed i'd be surprised if you drove enough traffic to get limited
# 22:42 snarfed fb's is way way more forgiving than e.g. twitter's
# 22:42 mko You'd be surprised how quick the automated rate-limiting kicks in. lol
# 22:42 snarfed and even if you do, just let it run, right? if it takes 1d vs 1h, so what
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# 23:24 mko Even more interestingly, the Graph API Explorer seems to contain a lot of content that is impossible to view in the web client.
# 23:28 mko The content of the post is " has activity on FriendFeed." with a link and a description of "Learning Curve of Popular MMORPGS [Pic] (via Digg) - Comment or see your complete FriendFeed »"
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# 23:38 gRegor` Says the post isn't available. Probably privacy setting.
# 23:39 gRegor` Friendfeed was pretty cool for its day
# 23:43 mko It says the post isn't available for me even, though.
# 23:43 mko It's as if the post exists somewhere deep in their database but not in the web client.
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