#indiewebcamp 2014-07-12

2014-07-12 UTC
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mko That I couldn't tell you. lol
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hmans I get that IndieAuth won't even forward me to Twitter if it doesn't see the rel link on the Twitter profile
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hmans but if I'm the legitimate user, that is an inconvenience at best
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hmans and if I'm an attacker in control of twitter.com/hmans, I can just set the bio to whatever.
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rascul if you gain control of someone's twitter account, that alone is not enough for indieauth
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mko Right. You'd still need control over their domain.
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mko Granted, you could IndieAuth as the person using a different domain, but it'd be a different domain.
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rascul because you need the rel=me stuff on the domain
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hmans Well, if someone "finds" my Twitter password, they can log into my indieAuth stuff, no matter how much IndieAuth checks that my Twitter account links back to hmans.io.
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hmans I'm just trying to grok this. I'm probably missing something important.
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rascul if the twitter/domain stuff is already linked, then the twitter account would give you the access
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mko That is true.
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rascul then it's as secure as your twitter account
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snarfed to be fair, indieauth isn't really trying to protect (too much) against someone hijacking your twitter account
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rascul twitter security is probably outside the scope of indieauth
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snarfed yes
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mko heh
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mko I would hope so.
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snarfed indieauth wants to A) assert you own a domain and B) use a third party auth provider to do that
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snarfed to do both, you need the bidirectional links
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hmans My thinking is simply that the part of IndieAuth where it checks twitter.com/hmans having a rel="me" to hmans.io doesn't add anything. :/
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rascul it's just one of several mechanisms for using indieauth
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snarfed hmans: understood. trying to think of/remember the answer :P
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rascul pgp key
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hmans It's sort of bugging me a bit because it's stopping me from using twitter.com/hmans for both hmans.io and hmans.de
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rascul one that's not hosted on your domain
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rascul eh but even the pgp stuff has some issues that was discussed here in the past
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KevinMarks misses the social graph API
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snarfed hmans: yeah, you're discovering that indieweb is heavily biased toward a single "identity" domain per person. more than one will fail in lots of places, unfortunately
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hmans I don't mind that in general.
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hmans It's just that I think that particular part of IndieAuth serves no value. :P~
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hmans But that's me being all German and stuff, ignore me, we're horrible.
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snarfed paging aaronpk
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snarfed hmans: not at all. understanding is valuable
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rascul there's several alternatives to twitter for indieauth, feel free to use (or don't) whichever ones you prefer
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rascul sms, email might be more interesting than social network auth
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hmans Yeah, I'm not saying something is inherently wrong with IndieAuth.
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hmans I'm just confused by the backlink checking.
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KevinMarks you could patch it to recurse further
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rascul aaronpk is the one who made it and can tell the most about it
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hmans I'll bug him
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hmans I'm very eager to do something with IndieAuth... on #pants, I don't ask users for email addresses, all they get is a password, so I'm trying to come up with creative ways to authenticate them without even that (or if they forget it).
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hmans Some have been bugging me about a "password reset" feature, but that's sort of hard to implement without an email address to send stuff to.
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hmans So the direction I'm going in now is to ask them for links to their "other" profiles on the web and rel=me them for IndieAuth.
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hmans I *particularly* like the PGP scheme
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rascul iirc there's some potential issues with the pgp method, but i don't recall right now
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hmans Is there anyone wanting to give #pants a try? I'm kind of craving feedback.
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KevinMarks the original http://microformats.org/wiki/relmeauth page mentions multiple rel=me links, but only within a single domain. The pseudocode is not clear about recursing
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mko hmans: What does #pants run on?
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KevinMarks what is #pants? I missed the beginning
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hmans mko, the hollow cries of my enemies!
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hmans Woah, wait
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mko lol. I meant more like the technology stack, but you know, whatever works.
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hmans mko, platform wise? Ruby on Rails, which is a horrible choice for what #pants does, but it's what I'm fastest with.
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hmans I didn't have indieweb on the radar when I started, so some parts of it now are indieweb (lots of webmention stuff), while others aren't.
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mko Whatever works. You're not the only one doing RoR.
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mko If it was Node.js or PHP, I'd have given it a onceover but I'm not set up for RoR right now.
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hmans KevinMarks, decentralized blogging/social network thing. Powers hmans.io & a bunch of other sites.
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hmans mko, I'm happy to set you up on my server. All you need is CNAME a host to pants.social.
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hmans but no rush.
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hmans #pants is designed so a single install can host multiple sites, but users can eventually migrate servers without losing data.
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mko Ah. That's kind of neat.
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hmans The idea is that ideally, small communities will form where someone with a better understanding of tech hosts an instances for all their friends.
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mko I like it. And that person wears the pants in the family. Or. Wait. What?
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hmans user names are just domain/host names, so every user name and post ID contains all the information needed for communication, no matter where stuff is located.
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fr0zen nice tool to generate visual identity: www.logoshi.com
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hmans You add people to your friends list just by entering their domain names, and all involved systems will then start pushing/pulling content into timelines. https://www.dropbox.com/s/49hdxs51aekg6qe/Screen%20Shot%202014-07-10%20at%2022.45.01.png
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KevinMarks hmans: we think "following" is the opposite of "follower" (yes it's not ideal) http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-follower#follower_and_following
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hmans I'm trying to, on a higher level, make it look and work like a "normal" social network, hiding the decentralized underpinnings for those who just want to "use" it.
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hmans KevinMarks, yeah, I'm using "following" in the code... but it's not a good user-facing term.
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KartikPrabhu hmans: why is "following" not considered a user-friendly term?
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hmans do you "add" a following? "create"?
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mko You follow.
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mko Same as on Twitter.
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KartikPrabhu yeah
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KartikPrabhu "I am following those people"
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hmans Yeah, good point.
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mko fr0zen++
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Loqi fr0zen has 1 karma
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hmans I was sure even Twitter was calling them "friends", but I was wrong.
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mko That's a cool logo prototyper.
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fr0zen mko Loqi \o\
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Loqi who, me?
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fr0zen I liked it too. Simple and effective.
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KartikPrabhu hmans: on FB presumes you are friends with everyone.
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KartikPrabhu only* (I think)
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hmans Yeah, I get that "friends" kind of implies mutual.
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hmans I'll give it some more thought. Early days. :)~
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KartikPrabhu hmans: let me know if you find a good terminology. I am not sure I like any of the existing ones
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: not any more, you can follow people on fb
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KartikPrabhu aah ok. I avoid using FB mostly... so all I know is I get "invitations" to candy crush something from my "friends"
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hmans logoshi.com is AWESOME
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hmans love it
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mko Want to see something awesome? Check out http://aprilzero.com -- beautiful quantified self site. Not sure how much of the data is liberated from silos yet. Just found the site.
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hmans Nice!
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voxpelli mko: got the spider up working again: http://relspider.herokuapp.com/api/lookup?url=https://twitter.com/voxpelli/
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voxpelli I think
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mko Nice!
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hmans What Wiki is indiewebcamp.com using?
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snarfed hmans: mediawiki
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hmans.io edited /IRC_People (+44) (view diff)
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hmans A hundred years ago I built a wiki called WakkaWiki that still has active forks out there, I think
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voxpelli mko: And now even the webhook callbacks are working
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mko Sweet. Might be interesting to see how different my crawled self looks before and after my website update.
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snarfed mko, voxpelli: in case you haven't seen it, https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/18852638/draft/lindy/lindy.html is another rel-me spider
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mko Oh my. Java. I haven't touched Java in almost 4 years.
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voxpelli snarfed: nice – mine currently don't pull any hcard data out, just assembles the relations
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voxpelli (had to install java now to get neo4j working locally :P)
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gRegor` Hmm, the checkmention test with in-reply-to and h-cite makes quite a different parsed array than I set my code up for. Trying to figure out how to best deal with that with php-mf2.
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voxpelli mko: the challenges in crawling rel-me:s is btw sites like Flickr – which has rel-me:s between each and every page of a user
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KevinMarks really? I thought it had a star model
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gRegor` e.g. https://checkmention.appspot.com/content/147280e1cac/de4004ba10b12ea5b78cc87497561c9a35706927/success vs Bridgy https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/gRegorLove/486720801019031553/486753505143947264
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KevinMarks BTW if you are writing a rel-me crawler, use sgnodemapper: https://code.google.com/p/google-sgnodemapper/
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gRegor` I guess i need to check for a 'properties' key inside the in-reply-to and if it's found, dig deeper
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KevinMarks https://code.google.com/p/google-sgnodemapper/source/browse/trunk/sites/flickr.js
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voxpelli KevinMarks: See eg. http://relspider.herokuapp.com/api/lookup?url=https://twitter.com/ade_oshineye (not all links there are rel-me:s though, some are aliases through other means)
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KevinMarks whose is relspider?
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voxpelli KevinMarks: Thanks for the link, will try to look into that eventually
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voxpelli KevinMarks: relspider is mine
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gRegor` Has anybody solved this in their mf2 parsing?
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voxpelli KevinMarks: https://github.com/voxpelli/relspider
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KevinMarks sgnodemapper was written by bradfitz for the google rel spider
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mko voxpelli: I see what you mean about Flickr. It's going through all of my damn Flickr contacts pages.
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mko gRegor`: Check out https://github.com/glennjones/microformat-node
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KevinMarks to weed out the links on big sites that end up all being the same
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gRegor` I'm on PHP and using php-mf2. It's a fine parser. My question is about using various output
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mko Huzzah. IndieAuth fully integrated into the prototype of my site including tiered authentication and auto-generating user profiles.
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mko Oh, I meant to see what output they were using.
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KevinMarks absorbing it into your relspider would make a lot of sense (and it may need a bit of updating)
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voxpelli KevinMarks: Would be great to reuse that effort! I guess I should check with adactio about that pattern as well as he is doing the same on Huffduffer
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KevinMarks also it's in JS because BradFitz was psychic and knew that was the future in 2007
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voxpelli KevinMarks: nice! I fully expetced it to be java or something
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voxpelli mko: I'm btw only running a small demo instance of the relspider right now – so it will soon be full again :P The neo4j instance can only handle a 1000 nodes/url:s right now
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voxpelli Using the https://addons.heroku.com/graphenedb
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KevinMarks (he ran it in mapreduce code using SpiderMonkey I think)
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mko No worries. I only tried it out on my Twitter URL out of curiosity.
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KevinMarks oops, sorry, I suspect mine will fill that
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voxpelli KevinMarks: No worries, I ran a variant of http://kodfabrik.se/userscripts/othermes/ in my Twitter feed to test it so I think I accidentally crawled half of the microformats community :P
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KevinMarks the 80:20 tradeoff was that the big sites have well-known URL patterns, and so you cna short-circuit full crawls, whereas the little ones are more likely to have proper xfn and links
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mko lol
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voxpelli KevinMarks: makes sense
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KevinMarks also, big sites tend to 200 instead of 302/301 when you have duplicate content
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KevinMarks looks like someone already moved it to github: https://github.com/webjay/sgNodeMapper/commits/master
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KevinMarks so forking and nodifying can work
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mko heh. Nodifying the NodeMapper.
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voxpelli KevinMarks: indeed!
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KartikPrabhu anyone have good suggestions/articles on designing archive pages for posts?
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GWG KartikPrabhu: I have thoughts
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KartikPrabhu GWG: shoot
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GWG Not necessarily articles/suggestions
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GWG How should an archive page differ from your home page presentation is the first question you want to ask?
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GWG Many sites have the same basic design
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KartikPrabhu no that is a separate question.
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KartikPrabhu I want to have a page that people can use to explore my articles, find new ones etc...
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GWG Well, if it is identical, you just solved your presentation problem
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KartikPrabhu no then I have 2 problems
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GWG Many people have it one and the same.
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GWG But, I like the different option
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KartikPrabhu ok good and how is that
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KevinMarks standalone articles, or collate into groups?
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KevinMarks what blogger does (wordpress is similar) is a reasonable pattern
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks: my article pages themselves are standalone, because I post on different themes so "prev" and "next" makes little sense
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KevinMarks http://epeus.blogspot.com/ is most recent n
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GWG KevinMarks: I think of things from a Wordpress POV
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KevinMarks http://epeus.blogspot.com/2003_11_01_archive.html is a month
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks: do you think a paginated feed helps/encourages people to explore more posts?
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GWG KartikPrabhu: You don't just have paginated feeds, you also have infinite scroll
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KartikPrabhu infinite scroll is horrible UX specially if you have a footer
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GWG That is why I switched to pagination
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GWG But, do you want an archive that is a list view, or shows the full articles?
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KevinMarks http://epeus.blogspot.com/search/label/OpenSocial is a tag
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KartikPrabhu I want to approach this from the following POV "Some one has landed on the archive page. I want the archive page designed in such a way that it encourages them to find articles/themes they want to read about"
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Loqi gives KartikPrabhu the archive page designed in such a way that it encourages them to find articles
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KartikPrabhu lol
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gRegor` Boom. Solved
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KevinMarks well, labels/tags are a way to cluster thematically
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gRegor` Loqi to the rescue
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KevinMarks chronology is another way
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks: do you think tag clouds are helpful?
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KevinMarks I had bouts of using tags and bouts not
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KevinMarks not very
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GWG Well, you can have a subject based archive
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gRegor` Overarching categories might be more useful for what you're talking about.
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gRegor` Or "Related articles" at the bottom of an article.
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KevinMarks I have at least 2 different tag styles going on in my blog
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KartikPrabhu gregor`: I have been thinking about "related articles"
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gRegor` I think people are more likely to find interesting content on your site via ^^ instead of an archives page
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KevinMarks maybe 3
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GWG I've been looking at archive views as different presentations than standard
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KartikPrabhu particularly using webmentions from my posts to my other posts to link thematically similar articles
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gRegor` That's a great idea
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KevinMarks yes, that makes sense
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KevinMarks I xref all the time in my posts
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KevinMarks and from twitter
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KevinMarks so munging that into webmentiosn would be good
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KartikPrabhu hmm
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KevinMarks hm, and blockquote as marginalia fragmentions?
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks: as in?
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KartikPrabhu I have been adding my own notes as marginalia to my older posts already! see: https://kartikprabhu.com/article/inline-svg-icons##Why+SVG :P
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KevinMarks as in quoting myself like this: http://epeus.blogspot.com/2007/06/keening-for-culture.html
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KevinMarks hm, that was a different blog
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks: sure you could cite yourself using a fragmention and then make it appear as marginalia to the quoted post... :)
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KevinMarks http://epeus.blogspot.com/2006/07/heads-or-tails-no-heads-and-tails.html has an example
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KevinMarks I'm thinking that the link+blockquote pattern is another fragmention-like thing
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KartikPrabhu agrees...
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KevinMarks so munging those into fragmentions may be interesting (rather than making marginalia more complex)
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KevinMarks hm, I have bridgy putting webmentions in my comments...
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KevinMarks I wonder if self-mentions work
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks: if youhave absolute links then yes! I use relative ones for my own website which are trickier
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KartikPrabhu is reading: http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2010/05/24/website-archives-best-practices-and-showcase/ to see examples
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KevinMarks I have at least 3 generations of permalinks there
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KevinMarks cool
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KevinMarks I actually like the hierarchical thingy in my blog sidebat
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KevinMarks s/sidebat/sidebar/
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Loqi KevinMarks meant to say: I actually like the hierarchical thingy in my blog sidebar
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KartikPrabhu has no sidebar. And chronological arrangement makes little sense as my post themes vary widly
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KevinMarks I like it for me I mean
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks: yes.. it makes sense on a lot of blogs :)
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KevinMarks 'cos I look back at what I wrote a decade ago or whatever
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KartikPrabhu it makes sense for me too if *I* want to look back. But no so much (I think) for people who come for specific topics
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KartikPrabhu has probably 10 readers so he might be over-thinking this anyway
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bnvk snarfed: you still up for coming out this eve?
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KevinMarks you could install one of those "read this next" plugins like every damn site on the web has
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KevinMarks the bloody NYT shows that in preference to the article on mobile
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks: ergh! also I have a very custom backend so no plugins unless I write it myself :P
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KevinMarks I was being facetious
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snarfed bnvk: timing is getting tight for tonight. are you in sf?
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KartikPrabhu and I got it too ;)
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KevinMarks I'm intrigued by the digg deeper idea
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks: I hate those things as much as the "5 mins to finish reading" stuff
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KevinMarks right, but I'm imagining a webmention-driven distributed future
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks: I have been thinking about those too. Incoming webmentions which are not replies or other could be included in "related posts" too
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bnvk snarfed: yah, in SF heading to Dolores park soon, then eating.
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bnvk we could meet tomorrow before EFF hackathon if ya dig
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snarfed bnvk: i dig! anywhere between the mission and glen park works for me. let me know if you want me to pick a place
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bnvk snarfed: is that now you mean?
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snarfed bnvk: tomorrow morning probably
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bnvk oh, ok
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KartikPrabhu anyone know what the "p-note" in h-card is supposed to have?
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GWG I thought that was sort of a short bio.
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KartikPrabhu hmmm ok
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bnvk snarfed: ok, there's a nice cafe on Folsom / 10th called Sextant wanna say 10 AM ?
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bnvk snarfed: ok, there's a nice cafe on Folsom / 10th called Sextant wanna say 10 AM ?
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snarfed bnvk: done! see you then!
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bnvk saweet
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bnvk have a good evening ;)
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snarfed you too!
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@veganstraightedge Tomorrow at 11am in the Commune Pool. @IndieWebCamp #YxYY Pool Edition. If you're here, come to it! (twitter.com/_/status/487830306758475776)
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JonathanNeal How is everyone?
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dns53 good
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KartikPrabhu hungry
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bret sleepxsleepsleep
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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indie-visitor anvw
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KartikPrabhu indie-visitor: use /nick anvw
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anvw hello all
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KartikPrabhu hi anvw...
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KartikPrabhu anvw: do you have a domain name?
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anvw i do, but as yet no h-card or whatever..
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KartikPrabhu anvw: nice! if you put some rel=me markup you can log in to the indiewebcamp wiki!
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anvw will do, just getting my head around the indieweb thing ..
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anvw thank you ..
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KartikPrabhu I see... feel free to ask around here
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mko Welcome, anvw
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@enebo @hmans @indiewebcamp Nice! (twitter.com/_/status/487855451212906496)
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indie-visitor nick/ anvw
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indie-visitor er ..
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anvw anyone from Sydney Aus on here?
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bear the irc people list shows a couple of folks from your part of the world, but they don't seem to be online
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anvw ah well
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bear http://indiewebcamp.com/IRC-people
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anvw thanks ..
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bear yw
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tommorris.org edited /Facebook (+684) "/* Criticism */ section on intrusive inferences" (view diff)
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tommorris Facebook creepiness distilled: http://tommorris.org/posts/9032
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@DaveCZombie RT @jkphl: Trying to have @t & @chloeweil as remote guests of the #IndieMark session @decentcamp #btconf #indieweb https://twitter.com/jkphl/status/469143660135985152/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/487916795773603840)
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@jongold @ntlk that's why Medium is great - doesn't give you the ability to faff. But I'm increasingly feeling #indieweb and want to own my content (twitter.com/_/status/487923251491123200)
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@Wordius So, I can send tweets fine from http://t.co/cJmvIqh4sN, the problem is formatting properly with intents #IndieWeb (twitter.com/_/status/487965752163446784)
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Loqi aral: barnabywalters left you a message 5 days, 5 hours ago: looks like IWCUK is overfull — any idea if the venue is likely to be happy to accommodate one or two extra people?
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@EllaDurham Excuse the major nerd out, but I'm really excited I got my personal URL shortener to work. Goodbye, bit.ly! #indieweb http://elladurham.com/2014/07/12/personal-url-shortener/ (twitter.com/_/status/487976551623843840)
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GWG Something is still missing...http://tiny.n9n.us/
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Loqi [mention] http://pants.social/vkk764 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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hmans chatty bot
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hmans :)~
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hmans (that text is WIP.)
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gregorlove.com edited /webmention (+77) "/* checkmention */ + authorship spoofing" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /authorship (+101) "/* Spoofing */ + checkmention" (view diff)
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GWG I feel that I am so close.
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gRegor` Re: author spoofing on webmentions, I think I am going to fetch the h-card from the author's claimed URL and see if it matches the claimed author name. If it doesn't, match (or no h-card is found), it will be flagged as potentially a spoof. Does that sound good, or is there a simpler/more efficient way I'm not thinking of? Reference: http://gregorlove.com/2013/05/1154/#w80 which was sent...
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gRegor` ...via http://checkmention.appspot.com
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GWG Why would someone spoof an author?
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mayuresh Is it theoretically possible to implement POSSE using JavaScript (client side)?
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gRegor` Because it's the internet. I don't know everyone's reasons, but trolling, spamming, or maligning someone are all foreseeable reasons. It's not a problem currently, but it could be.
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gRegor` My wm implementation allows me to moderate them before being displayed, so adding this check isn't too difficult.
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GWG mayuresh, all things are possible
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gRegor` mayuresh: I'm not sure. I suppose you could have JS open the posting interface for the silos, at least. Not sure about pre-populating the content.
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gRegor` I think Twitter does/did allow you to pre-populate a tweet via URL parameters, and you had to click "tweet" to send it. They might have locked that down for spam abuse though.
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kylewm https://dev.twitter.com/docs/intents
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gRegor` https://dev.twitter.com/docs/intents#tweet-intent
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GWG Oh, hello, kylewm
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gRegor` Hah, jinx
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mayuresh cool, thanks for that kylewm
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mayuresh kylewm++
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Loqi kylewm has 24 karma
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kylewm yay :)
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Loqi woot
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kylewm hi GWG
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kylewm I found CORS to be a massive hindrance for doing much fun stuff client-side
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kylewm (i.e. you would not be able to invoke the twitter API directly from client-side javascript)
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mayuresh dang
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mayuresh again, thanks for the tip about CORS. :)
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mayuresh kylewm++
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GWG I need to fix some of the last of my lingering issues so that I can deploy my new design.
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mayuresh hello tantek.
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kylewm hi tantek, how's palm springs?
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tantek greetings - just on here briefly to check the logs before heading to the pool
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tantek I will say one thing, Portable Contacts (PoCo) is super-obsolete
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tantek sad to hear people (re)-using it in this day and age
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tantek it's been obsoleted by vCard4, h-card, h-card in JSON etc.
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tantek and no one is maintaining PoCo - very bad sign for any standard
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tantek goes back to reading logs
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KartikPrabhu hello
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mayuresh hi kartik
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tantek mko ^^^
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KartikPrabhu hi mayuresh... how goes the site work?
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tantek !tell snarfed won't have time to update your h-card issues til probably next Monday/Tuesday
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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mayuresh kartik: site work progressing slowly
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GWG tantek, enjoy yourself.
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tantek thanks GWG
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KartikPrabhu mayuresh: good good
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GWG My day involves cleaning and development.
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mayuresh KartikPrabhu: you anywhere in or around Mumbai?
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tantek GWG - sounds therapeutic and porductive!
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GWG Oh, and filing github issues
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tantek and a belated hello mayuresh!
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mayuresh :)
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GWG tantek, I procrastinate too often.
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gRegor` KartikPrabhu: check the scrollback for my comment re: author spoofing and let me know what you think.
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KartikPrabhu mayuresh: I am now in Chicago... though I lived in Mumbai for a long time
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mayuresh oh, cool
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mayuresh are there any IWC people from Mumbai, still in Mumbai?
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tantek !tell mko last I checked/downloaded, the FB export was HTML + microformats
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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KartikPrabhu mayuresh: not that I know of. sandeepshetty (http://www.sandeep.io/) is in Kolkata afaik
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GWG mayuresh, if not, time to recruit some.
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mayuresh KartikPrabhu: I know of Sandeep Shetty, actually he is the reason I got to know about the IWC.
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KartikPrabhu is excited that people living in Brazil and India are getting involved now
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mayuresh GWG: yeah, time to recruit some...
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kylewm https://github.com/sandeepshetty/ says Mumbai interestingly
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KartikPrabhu oh cool
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KartikPrabhu mayuresh: maybe start a homebrew website club in Mumbai... that'll be pretty aswesome
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GWG I need to see about an HWC around here someday.
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tantek hmm - lots in the logs from yesterday but very little of it made it into collecting examples or brainstorms on the wiki.
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GWG My thoughts exactly.
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GWG tantek, which topic?
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mayuresh KartikPrabhu: yeah, that would be really awesome...
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tantek !tell KevinMarks, KartikPrabhu could you guys go through the logs from http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-07-11 and upon reflection of what you said add to the wiki accordingly.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek GWG, all
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tantek especially any/all URLs mentioned that seemed to spur any discussion
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tantek likely worthy of capturing somewhere
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kylewm lots of rel=me/rel=author stuff
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GWG I'd have to go look to remember.
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GWG I often need a memory trigger
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KartikPrabhu tantek: I mean to add some of that to the wiki... thanks for the reminder
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Loqi KartikPrabhu: tantek left you a message 1 minute ago: could you guys go through the logs from http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-07-11 and upon reflection of what you said add to the wiki accordingly.
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mayuresh hey, this Loqi thing is pretty cool
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Loqi woot!
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KartikPrabhu ha! yes...
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mayuresh is there any documentation about it?
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tantek !tell mayuresh, gRegor`, kylewm instead of proprietary Twitter intents, please implement /webactions and only use Twitter intents as proprietary fallback.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek mayuresh - great that you know Sandeep Shetty! we're big fans of him here. :)
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KartikPrabhu mayuresh: see http://indiewebcamp.com/Loqi
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tantek kylewm, particularly, lots of rel=me/rel=author stuff not connected to a specific use-case or user-flow - that tends to be frustrating
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gRegor` what is Loqi
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Loqi gRegor`: tantek left you a message 1 minute ago: instead of proprietary Twitter intents, please implement /webactions and only use Twitter intents as proprietary fallback.
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mayuresh tantek: yeah, Sandeep is a cool dude, have known him for a while now.
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Loqi http://indiewebcamp.com/Loqi
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Loqi mayuresh: tantek left you a message 1 minute ago: instead of proprietary Twitter intents, please implement /webactions and only use Twitter intents as proprietary fallback.
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tantek because you can have theoretical discussions about formats and protocols and go in circles all day and never get anywhere - or worse, get distracted by someone's abstract notion of "complete" or "ideal" which has nothing to do with anything a user does or wants.
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GWG tantek, I think webactions have an issue because they require a plugin in the browser to work.
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tantek GWG - no, that's just incremental adoption
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tantek all new tags require a browser change or something the browser to work
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gRegor` That's an easier barrier than ever-changing APIs
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tantek you can simulate with a JS shim also
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gRegor` e.g. Twitter decides to change how their web intents work and your software breaks
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KartikPrabhu yeah... it is the same with fragmentions currently for example
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tantek the point is, by using the <action> tag you allow for that re-use, even if it's only by barnabywalters and a few others
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tantek KartikPrabhu++
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Loqi KartikPrabhu has 46 karma
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GWG There must be a better fallback though
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tantek GWG - could be - you can figure one out using your own site!
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tantek GWG - but for now the point is, INSTEAD of *only* Twitter actions (intents), use webactions <action> tags, and then move those Twitter actions inside
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GWG tantek, maybe the JS route. I really need to pick up some javascript
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GWG tantek already have
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tantek it's an incremental improvement - it makes no claims to being perfect
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tantek only better than what people are doing
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KartikPrabhu GWG: JS is not a fallback
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tantek GWG - if you're using <action> tags, add yourself to the IndieWeb Examples section on the /webactions page listing those like myself, barnaby, aaronpk etc. that are also publshing <action> tags.
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GWG I meant in the absence of native support.
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tantek and with that caught up on logs and late for the #indieweb meetup in the pool.
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tantek going offline
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KartikPrabhu but it might be good to have a JS that fallbacks to Twitter stuff so that anyone can include it on their site for people without browser extensions
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KartikPrabhu tantek: have fun
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tantek thanks!
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kylewm needs to find a pool...
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GWG I want a picture of an in pool Indieweb meet up. That sounds atypical
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Loqi kylewm: tantek left you a message 5 minutes ago: instead of proprietary Twitter intents, please implement /webactions and only use Twitter intents as proprietary fallback.
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Loqi gives GWG a picture of an in pool Indieweb meet up
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kylewm gives GWG a picture of a poolside meet up http://instagram.com/p/qVqDzgsnlV/
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GWG KartikPrabhu, maybe more than Twitter.
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gRegor` indiepoolcamp
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gRegor` I guess we had a demo of that at /2014 Portland, actually. Johannes' remote pool monitor
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bret lol
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GWG gRegor, everyone dive in
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gregorlove.com edited /Loqi (-6) "dfn + Loqi test" (view diff)
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mayuresh alrighty, time for me to hit bed, see you all tomorrow.
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gregorlove.com edited /Loqi (+6) "revert" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /User:Gregorlove.com/webmention (+310) "/* Receiving webmentions */ updating based on current development" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /User:Gregorlove.com/webmention (+102) "/* Processing webmentions */ updating based on current development" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /User:Gregorlove.com/webmention (+113) "/* Todo */" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /User:Gregorlove.com/webmention (+789) "+ Checking Authorship section" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /User:Gregorlove.com/webmention (+30) "/* Todo */" (view diff)
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Loqi KevinMarks: tantek left you a message 1 hour, 29 minutes ago: could you guys go through the logs from http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-07-11 and upon reflection of what you said add to the wiki accordingly.
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@hmans New stuff in #pants: Webmention support, OpenGraph tags, flair images, server operator thingamajigs. http://hmans.io/ipp799 (twitter.com/_/status/488046429391560704)
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hmans \o/
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@anderiasch RT @hmans: New stuff in #pants: Webmention support, OpenGraph tags, flair images, server operator thingamajigs. http://hmans.io/ipp799 (twitter.com/_/status/488047987722301440)
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gregorlove.com edited /selfdogfood (+164) "/* Discussion */ Build your own lightsaber" (view diff)
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Loqi snarfed: tantek left you a message 2 hours, 33 minutes ago: won't have time to update your h-card issues til probably next Monday/Tuesday
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mko !tell tantek: Re Facebook export: It's now a crazy div soup with no discernible microformats, schema, or microdata.
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Loqi mko: tantek left you a message 2 hours, 36 minutes ago: last I checked/downloaded, the FB export was HTML + microformats
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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GWG Div soup?
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KartikPrabhu mko: it might be microformats1
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SamB I get the impression that OAuth and OpenID are kind of a mess
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SamB at least, it sure seems like a lot of things have to have special support for individual providers. What's up with that?
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snarfed *crickets*
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gRegor` GWG: div-soup, a mess of <div>s and other HTML, making it difficult to extract anything meaningful
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GWG Oh
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gRegor` Though looking at the Facebook example mko posted, it wouldn't be too hard to extract just the <img> element.
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gRegor` Extracting comments on it would be harder though
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KevinMarks well, if it is uniform per post type you probably can get something approximating the right thing
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KevinMarks google's exports are better and do use microformats
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Loqi tantek: mko left you a message 1 hour, 3 minutes ago: Re Facebook export: It's now a crazy div soup with no discernible microformats, schema, or microdata.
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@benwerd 3D printing an #indiewebcamp logo. I want a Makerbot! #yxyy https://twitter.com/benwerd/status/488081179443089409/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/488081179443089409)
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kevinmarks.com edited /fragmention (+338) "/* Discussion */ betterlinks criticisms" (view diff)
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@rwang0 RT @benwerd: 3D printing an #indiewebcamp logo. I want a Makerbot! #yxyy https://twitter.com/benwerd/status/488081179443089409/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/488086305020997632)
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mko gRegor` KevinMarks GWG: The div soup is severe. I've identified the patterns that are needed to extract, creating proper RegExps for extraction will likely be a more tedious process.
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mko And it's definitely not mf1.
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KartikPrabhu mko: aah was just a guess :)
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gRegor` I was thinking of using the DOM, not regex. Madness lies that way. :)
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mko For example, to extract e-content out of a wall post, you have to do the following: extract from wall.htm all content within the p immediately following the first </div> until div.meta
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mko The DOM might be the better way to go, but with it being a 10MB text file, I feel like the number of nodes might choke the browser, whereas consuming the file and using RegExp to extract the contents won't.
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mko !tell KevinMarks: Both Google and Twitter provide very nicely formatted exports.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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mko KartikPrabhu: Yeah. Even mf1 would be useful, and I'd totally just extract that via the DOM.
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mko Just run a JS parser in the DOM, and it'd export just fine.
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KartikPrabhu phpmf2 and mf2py both do mf1 so that would have been nice
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KartikPrabhu oh well FB <shrug>
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snarfed thanks for the bug report emmak!
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SamB I guess browsers don't provide callback-based parsing APIs ...
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mko But this is a serious mess. Most of it is unterminated text content run-on with block level content and a handful of tables thrown in for good measure.
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snarfed mko etc: i'm totally a broken record here, but remind me why you're not using the api?
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snarfed (or https://facebook-activitystreams.appspot.com/ , shameless plug :P)
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KartikPrabhu oh yeah! acrivity-streams :P
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mko snarfed: The export contains all of your content, while the API seemed to be incomplete in what you could access.
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gRegor` I was thinking PHP's DOMDocument or equiv for Node/others.
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gRegor` Or that ^ snarfed
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snarfed mko: fair. the api is extensive, but the dump probably has more. got a specific, example, out of curiosity?
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mko Listening history from Rdio
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mko "passive" wall posts, basically.
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snarfed hmm, i wonder if they're exposed
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snarfed you don't know which fb object type they are, out of curiosity?
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snarfed are yours public? i might go see
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mko I'm looking on the Graph API right now actually.
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mko I assume so. facebook.com/mowens
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snarfed great, they'd be there somewhere
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snarfed (if exposed)
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mko Yeah
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mko they're public.
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mko On https://www.facebook.com/mowens/allactivity
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mko Appears to be post type on the API. They've improved it for sure since the last time I used it, then.
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snarfed mko: probably so. i'd definitely do that then. the dump is really the wrong tool for the job
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mko Yeah. You might be right.
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mko My other concern is rate-limiting.
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snarfed i'd be surprised if you drove enough traffic to get limited
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@tetraenter RT @benwerd: 3D printing an #indiewebcamp logo. I want a Makerbot! #yxyy https://twitter.com/benwerd/status/488081179443089409/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/488091085705838592)
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snarfed fb's is way way more forgiving than e.g. twitter's
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mko You'd be surprised how quick the automated rate-limiting kicks in. lol
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snarfed and even if you do, just let it run, right? if it takes 1d vs 1h, so what
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mko I'll give it a shot though.
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snarfed great! gl!
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mko Thanks
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mko Interesting. https://developers.facebook.com/docs/graph-api/making-multiple-requests/#fql makes it seem that you can make a large multiquery request for data in the batch API.
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mko 50 at a time. Not too bad.
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mko Interestingly, it looks like I can export it all via the https://developers.facebook.com/tools/explorer/ easier than trying to deal with the actual API.
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mko Even more interestingly, the Graph API Explorer seems to contain a lot of content that is impossible to view in the web client.
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gRegor` Like?
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mko https://www.facebook.com/51200918/posts/639117935883 should be a link directly to one of my ooooooooooollllllld posts that was cross-posted from FriendFeed to Facebook back in 2008.
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mko The content of the post is " has activity on FriendFeed." with a link and a description of "Learning Curve of Popular MMORPGS [Pic] (via Digg) - Comment or see your complete FriendFeed »"
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gRegor` Says the post isn't available. Probably privacy setting.
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gRegor` Friendfeed was pretty cool for its day
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mko It says the post isn't available for me even, though.
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mko It's as if the post exists somewhere deep in their database but not in the web client.
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gRegor` Ohh, I see