#indiewebcamp 2014-07-13

2014-07-13 UTC
brianloveswords, snarfed, yakker, dariusdunlap, dns53, gRegor`, michielbdejong, krendil, chrissaad and j12t joined the channel
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@j51 RT @benwerd: Facebook tinkered with users’ feeds for a massive psychology experiment http://www.avclub.com/article/facebook-tinkered-users-feeds-massive-psychology-e-206324 #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/488163540998426626)
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Loqi [mention] http://werd.io/2014/saying-yes-dispatches-from-yxyy linked to http://indiewebcamp.com (webmention)
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Loqi KevinMarks_: mko left you a message 5 hours, 50 minutes ago: Both Google and Twitter provide very nicely formatted exports.
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@kotakmakan Re-decentralizing internet is currently high on my list of things to learn. Yes, thinking of setting up my own IndieWeb in my RPi. (twitter.com/_/status/488313385092513792)
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@Mindmapk My #indieweb life: how my site gives me an awesome social media archive of everything I've ever written http://werd.io/2014/my-indieweb-life-how-my-site-gives-me-an-awesome (twitter.com/_/status/488328097507590144)
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@hmans @omydot Cool. Schreib doch mal was über #indieweb <http://t.co/BoaI1zl2q1>, das ist wenigstens eine _echte_ Absage an die Silos. :)~ (twitter.com/_/status/488330218160271361)
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@search8engine RT @Mindmapk: My #indieweb life: how my site gives me an awesome social media archive of everything I've ever written http://werd.io/2014/my-indieweb-life-how-my-site-gives-me-an-awesome (twitter.com/_/status/488331542767628288)
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GWG So, I've bought a short domain
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jonnybarnes GWG: which is?
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GWG di5.us
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GWG I've been thinking that the long domain I use for my site is too long for many people to remember
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hmans Is there #indieweb markup for people I'm following/subscribing to/friends with?
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hmans eg. <a href="http://myfriend.com" rel="friend">My Friend</a>?
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KartikPrabhu hmans: the current idea seems to be to use rel=following for people whose updates you are following and rel=follower for people who are following your updates. Not in wide use yet though afaik
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voxpelli hmans: yes - that was the original microformat: http://microformats.org/wiki/xfn
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hmans perfect, thanks
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hmans following/follower is exactly what I'm looking for (I'm going to allow #pants users to make their Following list public)
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voxpelli KartikPrabhu: Any link regarding that?
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KartikPrabhu voxpelli: this is based on some brainstorming here: http://microformats.org/wiki/xfn-brainstorming#follower_and_following
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KartikPrabhu as I said... no real consensus or wide use
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hmans Some of my users have expressed their concern that while they may be 'following' other users, those users are not automatically their 'friends'.
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hmans So semantically, 'following' is a much better fit (for what I'm doing.)
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KartikPrabhu hmans: yes see the link I posted above ^^
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hmans \o/
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voxpelli KartikPrabhu: Yeah, cause I'm missing it in the list of rel-values: http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-registry
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KartikPrabhu voxpelli: yup... those were the best ideas from the brainstorming about posting list of followers. No one uses them actively afaik.
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voxpelli hmans: XFN has a rel-contact, can't that be used?
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hmans I'll take a look.
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hmans BTW, can I combine these? rel="following contact friend"? just wondering...
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voxpelli hmans: yes
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hmans \o/
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hmans life is good!
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voxpelli hmans: check http://gmpg.org/xfn/11 – one example they have is eg. rel="contact met"
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snarfed.org edited /rel-syndication (+246) "wordpress plugin" (view diff)
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hmans If I have multiple <a> tags linking to the same friend (eg. if I have an avatar image, a name div and an extra div, and each of those have individual links), is there a best practice regarding the application of the rel attribute?
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hmans Or can I just add rel="whatever" to all of the <a> and have clients deal with duplicate URLs?
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voxpelli I guess you just have to add it to one of the links
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voxpelli this topic is a bit funny btw, because Twitter actually supported XFN on your follow list for a long while (and eg. Flickr as well) – see http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-xfn-supporting-friends-lists
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voxpelli also http://microformats.org/wiki/social-network-portability, while over 7 years old, is a bit interesting
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KartikPrabhu hmans: why have multiple <a>s to the same url? just put everything in one <a><div><div>....</a> ?
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voxpelli and also a bit depressing...
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KartikPrabhu voxpelli: there is no incentive for "social media" sites to have portability
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hmans KartikPrabhu, mostly because there's some stuff in the div that's not supposed to be linked, and some other stuff that is actually links to something else.
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hmans But I know what you're saying. Maybe I can clean up my markup a little.
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voxpelli KartikPrabhu: "social network portability" was kind of the old name for what now is the IndieWeb
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KartikPrabhu hmans: yeah... It might be confusing also from a UX pov... to have "diff" things link to the same URL
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KartikPrabhu voxpelli: yes... agreed
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snarfed1 hey GWG, remember this? https://github.com/pfefferle/wordpress-webmention/issues/23 . pfefferle implemented it in https://github.com/pfefferle/wordpress-webmention/commit/bf62f8f9a7c1642200f70d7d19fedc91a564b82e
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snarfed1 any chance you have example code that uses it?
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voxpelli hmans: any URL to a follower list of yours that one can look at? Its an interesting topic :)
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hmans In a couple of minutes, there will be :)
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GWG snarfed1: I know he did. It's on my not-roadmap to work on.
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snarfed1 np! i was just hoping for example code that uses that hook
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snarfed1 i'm going to use it to add rel-syndication plugins for bridgy publish
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voxpelli KartikPrabhu: What's funny is that old mockups from that era still makes lots of sense, like: https://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/3122318414/in/faves-voxpelli/
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hmans voxpelli, http://hmans.io/following
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KartikPrabhu voxpelli: nice! I like the "optional message". sort of nice and polite. Could be implemented through a webmention to the homepage
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GWG snarfed1: That had been my plan. I just haven't gotten to it yet
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snarfed1 GWG: aha! ok. i'll start on it then if you don't mind
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KartikPrabhu hmans: looks nice!... does this work only inside #pants or even outside it?
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voxpelli hmans: nice! I would probably add the rel-contact as well, for increased compatibility, + you should probably add an hcard to somehow show that these are your contacts and this connect them with your identity through some rel-me's
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GWG snarfed1: Well, I look forward to it. I like the way Bridgy allows a preview.
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hmans KartikPrabhu, I started out without having #indieweb on my radar, so it's not 100% compatible yet, but the core protocol is now simply Webmention, and I'm going to attempt to switch the JSON that it's using to transmit posts across nodes to just microformats2. If that works, #pants can talk to any webmention/mf2 enabled site and vice versa.
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hmans voxpelli, I have some support for rel=me in there, but I haven't unlocked it for all users yet.
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snarfed1 GWG: thanks!
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snarfed1 i think this would only work when you trigger the publish via webmention, not in the web ui, since wordpress has no way of knowing you did that. still useful though
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KartikPrabhu hmans... good work on pants... looks quite neat and usable
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hmans thanks!
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GWG snarfed1: I had thought about that. You can have a checkbox that adds a hidden publish link into the_content filter.
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voxpelli hmans: as long as you have a rel-me from the profile page to this page (and back) then one can crawl it to find out who follows who – which is kind of crucial if you want to list the ones following you on your own site :)
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@kevinmarks @emercoleman @Annemcx @adders thanks all three of you. Come to http://indiewebcamp.com - there's one in the UK soon (twitter.com/_/status/488358145886932992)
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snarfed1 sure! my other thought…do you know if you can make a post type automatically start with some text when you start a new post, instead of just blank? if so, i could have that add the bridgy publish links
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GWG snarfed1: I haven't looked. That was why I thought of the other way. Then it is never inside the content window. It is added in with a filter.
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snarfed1 good point
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hmans voxpelli, so far on #pants when you follow someone new, your site will ping theirs through webmention, making yourself visible as a new follower.
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hmans I may change this at some point, but it was the easiest thing to implement given the time available. (Nothing you can see on #pants existed 2 weeks ago.)
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voxpelli hmans: oh – how do you identify that? some kind of metadata parsed from the mention?
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KartikPrabhu hmans: just to be sure... webmentions should be sent from a page linking to another page only.
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voxpelli KartikPrabhu: A follow is a link
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voxpelli A link in a blogroll/contact list, but never the less a link :)
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KartikPrabhu voxpelli: yes. So if your "following" page with a rel=following sends a webmention to the other's homepage then it makes sense.
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hmans voxpelli, in its current implementation, your site will send webmentions to your followers when you post something, leaving it up to them on how to deal with that data. I'll change this to send a webmention for their /following page so the receipient can just check for the rel=following.
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GWG snarfed1: I designed it all in my head as a possible extension of the Comments Plugin I did. But if you are thinking of a Bridgy Publish plugin, I'd split the metadata collection part of the Comments Plugin in favor of that
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KartikPrabhu hmans: webmention is not for such notifications. though there have been other overloads of webmention already
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hmans KartikPrabhu, yeah, I know. It's a bit of a mess right now. I apologize. I'm in the middle of moving from my own protocol to #indieweb, so there's bound to be some noise.
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snarfed1 GWG: nah, definitely not a bridgy publish plugin. i avoid ui whenever possible
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snarfed1 right now my plan is just to make pfefferle's webmention plugin add the rel-syndication links to the content when it does a new successful bridgy publish
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hmans Which is why I'll change it to webmention from source.domain/friends to target.domain
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KartikPrabhu hmans: no need to apologise. we're all figuring out what is good anyway... I mean to just warn you, but it is good to experiment :)
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hmans \o/
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voxpelli WebMention could actually be a good way to communicate follows and unfollows, perhaps its a bit of an abuse of the protocol, but not much more so than eg. likes and such
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GWG snarfed1: I'd suggest you instead have it add it as post metadata.
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KartikPrabhu voxpelli: "likes" actually have a link to the original post so those are exactly what webmentions are for
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KartikPrabhu even notofying follows/unfollows is good. but notifying followers of new posts is definitely an overload of webmention
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@kevinmarks Here's the info for IndieWebcamp UK: http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/UK September 6 & 7 in Brighton @Annemcx @emercoleman @adders (twitter.com/_/status/488360499268972544)
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voxpelli KartikPrabhu: likes pointing to a post or follows that points to a profile – different kind of targets, but both activities rather than content
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KartikPrabhu if your like has a permalink on your site then it is content
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voxpelli KartikPrabhu: oh, yes, followers shouldn't at all be notified about news posts through WebMentions – for that there's Pubsubhubbub?
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KartikPrabhu yeah PuSH is for those notifications I think
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KartikPrabhu "Pubsubhubbub" is the most ridiculous name
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hmans I haven't read up on it fully, but what I've seen of PuSH so far felt way too complex for what I'm doing.
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voxpelli hmans: not at all
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KartikPrabhu hmans: feel free to note criticisms on the wiki if you feel so
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hmans The protocol I was using before was exactly like webmention, but the parameter names were different. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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KartikPrabhu does not know the in/outs of PuSH
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voxpelli PuSH is basically WebMentions, but geared towards broadcasting
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hmans I'll do more reading before applying further judgment. :)~
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KartikPrabhu is confused about the role of the Hub like superfeedr
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voxpelli said to be out of scopeno longer
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voxpelli opps
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voxpelli In PuSH 0.4 the relationship between publisher and hub is said to be out of scope
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voxpelli A PuSH hub is like a WebMention endpoint – it can be handled by the site itself or can be left to a third party to eg. make it easier to scale
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@hmans @monoxyd @zynisch BTW, würde Twitter sich was aus Webmention machen, könnte es jetzt einen Link zurück zu dem #pants-Post anzeigen. (twitter.com/_/status/488362478360100864)
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voxpelli Julien of Superfeedr knows more – he's doing some IndieWeb work on it as well: http://blog.superfeedr.com/indieweb-microformats-fragments-subscriptions/ & http://blog.superfeedr.com/indiefeeds/
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KartikPrabhu hmm
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hmans I'm off to the kitchen for a bit. Thanks for your input.
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@sammachin @aaronpk something broken with twitter on indieauth? (twitter.com/_/status/488363335998771200)
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KevinMarks hm, the front page is now out of date regarding upcoming indiewebcamps
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GWG KevinMarks: It is hard to keep up.
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yakker the indiefeeds article seems to suggest that an rss reader is still the default way to consume the indieweb. are there other alternatives?
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GWG yakker: In progress
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kodfabrik.se edited /discovery (+106) "Adding my blog to the list of separate about pages" (view diff)
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voxpelli yakker: a feed reader with a Twitter / Facebook like presentation would probably be ideal, but would still be a feed reader (many now uses Facebook/Twitter as their feed reader anyway)
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yakker thanks
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voxpelli I can't find a page in the indiewebcamp wiki for contact list / follower list – can it really be that no such page exists?
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voxpelli The closest I've found is http://indiewebcamp.com/blogroll – but blogroll isn't really the same thing I think
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kylewm voxpelli: it is under http://indiewebcamp.com/nickname-cache
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voxpelli kylewm: not really about how to publish a list of people you follow?
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kylewm oh! no I don't think that exists yet
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GWG voxpelli: In the old day, that was a blogroll
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@atl @ericnakagawa sounds like you’re describing @withknown http://werd.io/2014/my-indieweb-life-how-my-site-gives-me-an-awesome /cc @benwerd (twitter.com/_/status/488371023796895745)
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KevinMarks well, there is XFN, which is effectively a blogroll
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voxpelli GWG: a blogroll is more like Twitter's "Who To Follow" feature I think – never implied that you actually followed them yourself
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KevinMarks but they rot badly (my blogroll was last updated about a decade ago)
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voxpelli but sure – a blog roll could be a contact list, but not all contact lists are a blogroll
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GWG KevinMarks: But I am thinking voxpelli is referring to something more like barnabywalters feed reader for people he follows.
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KevinMarks voxpelli: it used to - the point of it was to go to your site and click through your blogroll to see who had updated that day
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voxpelli KevinMarks: oh, okay, never seen it as that :)
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KevinMarks this is before feed reading became common
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voxpelli what I'm kind of is missing is the discovery part – isn't eg. mentioned at all on http://indiewebcamp.com/discovery – should one extend the blog roll page with that?
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GWG voxpelli: The...If You Like Me, You Might Like KevinMarks type idea?
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voxpelli GWG: No, rather that I can discover who you follow by simply knowing your profile URL
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GWG ISn't that the same idea?
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voxpelli basically http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-xfn-supporting-friends-lists
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GWG If you like me, you might like people I follow
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voxpelli well, that would be one way to use it, another would be to confirm that you follow me (and have you ping me your follow list when you start or stop following me)
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GWG What if I don't want to hurt your feelings?
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voxpelli Well, you might skip the unfollow ping, but I might eventually crawl you to find out anyway ;)
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GWG Why do I want you to know who my friends are again?
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GWG is playing devil's advocate here
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voxpelli Well, many reasons – it enables building of an indie social graph
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voxpelli And also enables confirmations of who I follow that follows me – which eg. Twitter handles as a "friend" relationship
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kevinmarks.com edited /Main_Page (-191) "/* IndieWebCamp 2014 */" (view diff)
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voxpelli And as before – hmans wants to have a list on his site with people following him (just like eg. Twitter has a list of people following me) – and he would need to get that data from somewhere
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GWG I object to Facebook, for example, calling anyone I find interesting a friend.
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voxpelli It would also make my follow data independent of any indie reader – they could easily consume my friends list from my page and subscribe me to all of the ones I'm following there
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GWG But, I do not object to choosing to share people with others
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voxpelli GWG: Yes, we need to agree on the semantics used – is eg. XFN contact enough or do we need eg. rel-following as KartikPrabhu pointed at – and most of all: We need to document it
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voxpelli There's currently lots of old things documented on the Microformats wiki and none on the IndieWebCamp wiki
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kevinmarks.com edited /Main_Page (+27) "/* IndieWebCampUK 2014 */ make UK the next event" (view diff)
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KevinMarks GWG: xfn has a rich choice of relationship types
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KevinMarks you get to decide who is a friend etc
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KevinMarks but practically, people don't update them unless there is utility there
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KevinMarks if your xfn list was used as a feed reader type thing, then you would update it
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voxpelli KevinMarks: What would you say – update Blogroll page or create new Friends list page? Microformats wiki uses the "friends list" terminology
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KevinMarks document the need - if you were searching for friend list and not finding it , document that
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KevinMarks if you are more concerned about feed reading substitute?
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KevinMarks why you want to publish your friends list may inform thinking about ti better
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voxpelli makes sense
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KevinMarks hnag on, why is the chrome extension not linked from /webmention?
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KevinMarks o_O
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kodfabrik.se edited /friending (-4) "Correcting misspelled "blogroll"" (view diff)
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KevinMarks is clearly a bad editor
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kevinmarks.com edited /fragmention (+251) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ add the Chrome extension and script link. Also move explanatory post up" (view diff)
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KevinMarks use case of the day: https://twitter.com/zeynep/status/488298618562957312
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@zeynep Lack of inter-operability among formats is devastatingly cumbersome. I just want to be able point to whatever, wherever. (twitter.com/_/status/488298618562957312)
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GWG KevinMarks: I have a question for you then
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KevinMarks OK
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GWG KevinMarks: You have a longstanding reputation for thinking about blogging and identity online. What do you think is the best way for your own site to be discovered by others that doesn't involve a silo solution?
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KevinMarks really the ultimate silo, google :(
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GWG KevinMarks: That doesn't involve a silo.
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KevinMarks links from others that you already read
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KevinMarks practically, that is going to involve silos for a while
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KevinMarks have some decade old optimism: http://epeus.blogspot.com/2004/07/call-off-search.html
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KevinMarks heh at how dead that steve jobs link is, thanks to apple
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KevinMarks it links to homepage.mac.com (Which they killed) hosting a Quicktime reference movie (whcih they killed) to a streaming Quicktime movie (which they killed) of a steve jobs keynote (which is now offline)
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gRegor` We'll have to go back to the pre-google days: webrings ;)
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GWG gRegor`: Oh, please no. No Webrings
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KevinMarks blogrolls were a kind fo webrings
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gRegor` I don't think discoverability will be a big problem
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gRegor` I feel like most people find stuff through social currently
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KevinMarks Jobs on RSS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x51L6hbIxr4&t=60m
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GWG gRegor`: But that is in the silo. What is the out of silo way of doing it socially?
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KevinMarks linking to each other
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KevinMarks linking from the wiki?
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gRegor` No, social is just predominantly in the silo currently. It does not have to be.
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gRegor` I find new people and interesting things usually through what my friends are sharing. As the web moves more towards indieweb, that will remain the same, they'll just be sharing on their own sites instead of in silos.
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gRegor` It will be a (probably slow) migration. Not like flipping a switch
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voxpelli Webrings/blogrolls – the old manual social graph – and social != silo
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voxpelli By finding who people mention (something eg. Twitter is pretty bad at nowadays, Jaiku did a good job with it though) and by having services that crawl the social graph and makes suggestions you won't have a problem with discovery on the indieweb
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KevinMarks we should iterate on indienews too
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voxpelli KevinMarks: Indienews is more like Hacker News than Technorati now, right? Wouldn't the Technorati route be more fitting?
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KevinMarks yes, but that is making another silo
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voxpelli you mean by having everyone ping thet site on all their updates?
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KevinMarks yes
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voxpelli if one could just discover "everyone" on the indieweb that wouldn't be a problem, but hard to do that without any central or semi-central points
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KevinMarks that's what we did at 'rati
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KevinMarks get each blogging service to ping us, and grabbed their "recently updated list"
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voxpelli yeah, with PuSH now that ping probably wouldn't be needed anymore – one would just need to discover the ones who wants to participate
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voxpelli well, anyway, feels like the up-votes on indienews should come from everyones own streams rather than from clicks on the site itself
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KevinMarks yeah, but that would require us to actually use it
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KevinMarks :)
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GWG KevinMarks: Isn't that a prerequisite?
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GWG Why would you want to be somewhere alone?
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voxpelli true, more people should do like Adactio and post all of their links on their own pages rather than to eg. Pinboard :) http://adactio.com/links/ Would be a great start
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KevinMarks is guilty there
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GWG voxpelli: I have been working toward that.
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GWG Not all my links. But all the ones I want to share.
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voxpelli To feed http://adactio.com/links/tags/indieweb into upvotes on indienews would be great
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KevinMarks the return of planetplanet?
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GWG KevinMarks: I loved the Planet sites
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voxpelli btw, just found out that some feed readers have started to support OPML subscriptions: http://blog.inoreader.com/2014/05/opml-subscriptions.html So a XFN -> OPML converter would be enough to get a live friends list working
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KevinMarks oh boy. OPML
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KevinMarks Opaque Pointless Markup Language
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@kevinmarks @roundtrip @jeffsonstein thanks - I think it makes sense, but more importantly since we implemented it in #indieweb we're using it daily (twitter.com/_/status/488390602170445824)
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KevinMarks https://twitter.com/bug_gwen/status/488390404430376960
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@bug_gwen Probably my greatest artistic achievement: Clippy for Online Comments. https://twitter.com/bug_gwen/status/488390404430376960/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/488390404430376960)
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XgF KevinMarks: Eh? OPML is trivial
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KartikPrabhu does anyone understand what the rest of the thread (apart from KevinMarks) is talking about here: https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/488390602170445824 ?
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@kevinmarks @roundtrip @jeffsonstein thanks - I think it makes sense, but more importantly since we implemented it in #indieweb we're using it daily (twitter.com/_/status/488390602170445824)
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KartikPrabhu lots of words I don't understand...
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gRegor` I'm pretty sure those are just random buzzwords thrown together
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KartikPrabhu ok cool!
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KartikPrabhu like wth is "LCD compatible"?
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GWG gRegor`: Random buzzwords are fun though
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GWG I remember a few years ago where someone did that deliberately as the opener for his keynote, then said, "Now that we've gotten that out of the way...let's have a real discussion."
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gregorlove.com created /Nucleus (+279) "Created page with "{{stub}} '''<dfn>Nucleus</dfn>''' is an open source <abbr>CMS</abbr> that runs on [[PHP]] and [[MySQL]]. == Indieweb Examples == * {{gRegor}} has been running it on gregorlove...."" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com created /nucleus (+21) "Redirected page to [[Nucleus]]" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu where would be the best place to document the demand/request/use-cases for the whole partial v/s full h-card discussion?
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KartikPrabhu tantek ^
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KartikPrabhu is re-reading and distilling that discussion
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gregorlove.com edited /Nucleus (+1372) "development details" (view diff)
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voxpelli KartikPrabhu: perhaps http://indiewebcamp.com/authorship ?
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gRegor` KartikPrabhu: See /h-card, snarfed already captured a fair bit there.
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KartikPrabhu voxpelli: the authorship algorithm does not need that
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KartikPrabhu aah thanks gregor`
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voxpelli ok, might have confused what it was about
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KartikPrabhu goes back toreading and #GERvsARG
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gRegor` tantek: Captured the latest development history of /Nucleus
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tantek thanks gRegor` !
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tantek gRegor`++
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gRegor` It's hard to separate personal feelings from it, heh. Nucleus was my first open source contribution and it was a pretty stable CMS, especially for its day.
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tantek KartikPrabhu, gRegor` - difficult question - as framing it as "use-cases for the whole partial v/s full h-card" is itself a problem
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gRegor` I would love to see it continue and improved, but since I'm basically one of the only developers that's active anymore... I just can't take on the leadership of that, heh
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tantek because it's too format-centric
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KartikPrabhu tantek: discussion then?
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voxpelli can someone remind me why partial h-cards was prefered rather than defering it all to the authorship algorithm?
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tantek the problem is that the actual *user-level* problem has not yet been documented independent of any particular (perceived) format need
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tantek voxpelli: for what use-case?
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KartikPrabhu voxpelli: tantek clarified that the authorship algorithm is fine
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tantek KartikPrabhu: second problem is the incorrect conflation of linked information (via <link rel>) and invisible (meta)data (e.g. <meta name>)
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voxpelli the http://indiewebcamp.com/h-card issues that KartikPrabhu was asking about
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KartikPrabhu but I still want to put a partial h-card on my homepage and link to the full one on my about-page so that anyone interested in parsing it... maybe to find my email can discover it
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tantek KartikPrabhu: one place to start would be on /homepage - specifically about what people do or do not display on their home page
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tantek document that publishing behavior first
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tantek KartikPrabhu: h-card is not about presentation
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KartikPrabhu tantek: yeah good suggestion :)
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gregorlove.com edited /Nucleus (-2) "/* Development */" (view diff)
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tantek therefore it makes *no sense* to say put it "on my homepage"
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KartikPrabhu tantek: agreed... was using it as a subsitute word there
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tantek if "on my homepage" is something peole see
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tantek s/peole/people
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Loqi tantek meant to say: if "on my homepage" is something people see
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voxpelli tantek: KartikPrabhu: There is somewhat of such a documentation on http://indiewebcamp.com/discovery#Separate_Contact_Page
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tantek KartikPrabhu: it's a framing error to use any format as a substitute word/phrase for a user-level feature
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tantek it misdirects the conversation to be about formats rather than user features
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KartikPrabhu tantek: yes... i agree
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KartikPrabhu hence I was re-reading the whole thread. I realise I said a bunch of wrong things that time
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tantek to solve this problem in a user-centric way, first we have to describe it in a user-feature-centric way
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tantek *without* mention of any particular plumbing
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tantek also the problem with adding them as issues of "h-card"
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KartikPrabhu oh they are not problems with h-card at all
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gregorlove.com edited /User:Gregorlove.com (-12) "/* Introduction */" (view diff)
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tantek because h-card is not the problem
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tantek right - so the issue is misfiled
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tantek and misdescribed
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tantek so it's hard to even start to solve it
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KartikPrabhu yes.... I will attempt to formulate what I was saying better
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tantek voxpelli: discovery is an algorithm or set of, another form of plumbing
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gregorlove.com edited /Nucleus (+61) "/* See Also */" (view diff)
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tantek voxpelli: no user cares about the concept of "discovery"
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tantek nor should they
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tantek goes back to working on the presentation of his composite stream.
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voxpelli tantek: that section of discovery seems to be just about documenting how people are presenting data, so that one later can make an algorithm for discovering that data
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tantek checks it
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tantek voxpelli: yes - appears that's where I documented that at the time. likely deserves its own /contact page
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gregorlove.com edited /Nucleus (+61) "/* Development */" (view diff)
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GWG tantek: If users don't care about discovery, should creators?
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tantek GWG - only as much as they care about any plumbing, which is as a means to an ends of good design, good user experience, good user features.
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GWG tantek: So what is the plumbing of discovery?
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tantek discovery is a set of algorithms, algorithms are plumbing
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GWG tantek: Okay...so I write an article on people-focused communications. How do I get it to people who might engage in a dialogue about my thoughts, as opposed to just leaving it there and hoping people find it?
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tantek GWG - you 1) talk about what the user experience should be *first* rather than talking about *any* plumbing, formats, protocols etc.
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tantek the latter you mention only incidentally as paths to explore
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gRegor` https://twitter.com/nrrrdcore/status/488419691270909954
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@nrrrdcore I'm pretty smitten with this year's @TriConf theme "Indie all the things", ++ the gorgeous ✨ poster by @tymulholland https://twitter.com/nrrrdcore/status/488419691270909954/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/488419691270909954)
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tantek which is essentially what I did in my first blog post on the topic - I focused nearly completely on user-focus, user-needs, user-features, user-flow
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GWG tantek: I was using you as the example. You wrote an article on people-focused communication. How would other people know about it?
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tantek what is TriConf? another IndieTech Conf like thing?
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tantek GWG blogging it. POSSEing.
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gRegor` Just heard of it. It's a barcamp.... still reading.
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gRegor` "A conference by and for our local community | July 16, 18 & 19, 2014 Hear a talk or give a talk on .... technology | design | entrepreneurship | art | culture | community"
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GWG tantek: I do. I just, as one person said, wonder if I'm talking to myself.
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GWG Doesn't stop me though
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tantek gRegor`: cool - more people pushing the general concept of independence - all good and complementary.
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gRegor` http://triconf.com/
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tantek GWG - sometimes it's tough to get feedback on these things -
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KartikPrabhu GWG: again what is the issue here? How to popularize posts more?
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tantek especially the more "out there" your posts are
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tantek your - meaning the in general "your"
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tantek not you specifically
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GWG Your postings are meant to connect you to other people.
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tantek that's one possible purpose
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GWG How do you know that is working?
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tantek that what is "working"?
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tantek what do you mean by "working"?
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GWG tantek: If I'm writing without the goal of people seeing it, which I do, then I don't do it on a public website.
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KartikPrabhu GWG: it is a public website
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KartikPrabhu it is open for public viewing
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tantek GWG - I don't really understand negative goal framing (i.e. writing **without** the goal)
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GWG KartikPrabhu: I know that
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KartikPrabhu and linking and sharing
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tantek forget what you're trying to avoid - state what you're trying to achieve
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gRegor` KartikPrabhu: So thinking about this more, I think my use-case (and yours?) is that we don't necessarily want to display our name and photo on every post. So I think it makes sense for us to just use rel-author instead of a minimal h-card, right?
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GWG tantek: I would like to engage in more dialogue with my posting.
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KartikPrabhu gregor`: yes for post authorship it works and there is no real problem
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tantek GWG - that's a bigger challenge - finding people interested in the same or similar topics is a good start though
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tantek you can always share a permalink in IRC
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KartikPrabhu I can just add rel=author to the link in my footer to my about page and it will work
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gRegor` nods
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gRegor` So is the real problem: How do we let parsers know where to find our h-card, outside the authorship algorithm?
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KartikPrabhu gregor`: let me find an example I've been thinking of
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gRegor` tantek: If development of /Nucleus is to continue, I'm definitely going to recommend they use IRC instead of email / forums. :)
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tantek gRegor`: :)
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tantek gRegor`: re: real problem - to describe the *real* problem, describe it in terms of use-case and user-flow.
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GWG I do have another problem
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GWG I decided my domain name is too long.
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GWG So I bought a shorter one, and I want them to coexist.
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gRegor` I *think* I recall mko had the use-case.
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GWG Trying to figure out how I don't cause trouble for my site with that
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gRegor` consults the logs
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tantek gRegor`: too much of this discussion has been pre-polluted / misfocused with format/protocol specific discussion.
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GWG How would Indieauth and Rel-Me work with an alternate domain?
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tantek gRegor`: to make progress on a problem unconstrained by plumbing-specific-details, you must distill a use-case and user-flow that is 100% user presentation and features (rather than mentioning h-card or discovery or rel)
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: is your address_book page not working? doesn't fetch the profile for me...
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tantek GWG - I don't understand the question - can you describe the series of user steps you mean?
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GWG I have a long domain for my site
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GWG I wanted to go for something shorter.
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GWG How do I say... aaaa.com is me, but a.com is also me? Without confusing too much?
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gRegor` KartikPrabhu: Is the example entering someone's URL and having it populate an address book entry for them?
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KartikPrabhu gregor`: yes! I am trying to get screenshots using kylewm's interface and show what is the exact use-case
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gRegor` So there's the use-case, textually. :)
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KartikPrabhu yes...
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GWG tantek: For example, you have ttk.me and tantek.com
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tantek GWG - that's handled by redirects to the canonical
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gRegor` What wiki page is this going on?
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GWG tantek: Even the short links?
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tantek KartikPrabhu, gRegor` that's better. Then the question is why do you want an address book at all?
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KartikPrabhu i point my address book to someones homepage because that is what I know about them. But that person may have other info such as email/Twitter/G+ etcc
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tantek GWG - that is how short links work yes, via redirects
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KartikPrabhu then I can say, "ok website... track updates from this person's website and Twitter but ignore their G+"
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gRegor` An address book can be used to populate name+link+sparkline image in posts, like kylewm does.
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KartikPrabhu or "send this message to their email"
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KartikPrabhu "find their photo so I can link to them with photo like kylewm"
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gRegor` Reference: http://indiewebcamp.com/Red_Wind#Address_Book
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@jordan_web RT @kevinmarks: Here's the info for IndieWebcamp UK: http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/UK September 6 & 7 in Brighton @Annemcx @emercoleman @adders (twitter.com/_/status/488427265114800129)
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GWG Wonder if I could edit the wiki with the short one...
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KartikPrabhu also address book helps keep my "following" and "friends" list portable and in my control on my domain
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KartikPrabhu unlike when I change RSS readers
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tantek gRegor`: you don't need an address book for that - that's why I documented /nicknames-cache
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gRegor` Sounds like potato / potatoe
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tantek gRegor`: are the differences not obvious?
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tantek *cache* vs. primary store
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tantek *public* information (URL etc.) vs. *private* information (like phone number)
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gRegor` public/private hasn't come up in this discussion so far.
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KartikPrabhu tantek: then the address book might be a wrong name. we are not saying whether you store public/private info
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KartikPrabhu i didn't want to go make up names for things
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gRegor` /nickname-cache is a good page to start with. I think the use-case we're talking about more how to get the information into that cache
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tantek KartikPrabhu: I *am* saying whether you store public/private info - only public is needed for a nicknames-cache, and a nicknames-cache is sufficient for those use cases
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KartikPrabhu ok so how do I get someone's nicknames if I know their domain name only?
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tantek gRegor`: perhaps document that use-case on the /nicknames-cache page then?
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gRegor` The page doesn't currently tell how to get the information into the cache, which is what we need to add to it.
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gRegor` Jinx.
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gRegor` :)
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tantek KartikPrabhu: for now go ahead and add that question to a new FAQ section in the /nicknames-cache page
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KartikPrabhu fair enough
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KartikPrabhu tantek: nicknames-cache does not address the "contact someone" use-case.
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tantek KartikPrabhu: /communication does
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KartikPrabhu yes... so I should be storing nicknames and a separate contact list?
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KartikPrabhu even though most people on there will be common?
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tantek KartikPrabhu: I documented a user-flow for "contact someone" in my first People Focused Communications post
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tantek KartikPrabhu: why are you storing anything without a use-case?
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KartikPrabhu so you envision contact list only living on a "phone" and not someone's domain?
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GWG tantek: I'm storing location data.
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GWG But I intend to do something with it someday
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GWG Maybe
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tantek KartikPrabhu: not sure - I'm trying to solve the *one* device case to start with
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tantek before solving a more complicated use case
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tantek selfdogfooding simple first
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tantek more complex later
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tantek if you have simple solved, then document it
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tantek then we can talk about more complex
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KartikPrabhu "use-case" is that I want to store my contact list somewhere so that if I change my phone or am on some friends' device, I cna just go to mydomain's contact list and do the "communication" thing
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tantek fascinating - so like an indie web "home screen"
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KartikPrabhu yeah... just a list of contacts not a full homescreen with apps and what not
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gRegor` mentions "build your own lightsaber" again
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tantek wishes there was a better phrase for "home screen" since it is so close to "home page"
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tantek KartikPrabhu: or a grid of contacts icons
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KartikPrabhu yes!
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tantek that would be a wonderful prototype to see
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tantek so an indie web implementation of *this* UI: http://indiewebcamp.com/images/b/b3/ios-people-icons-screenshot.jpg
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tantek (which currently represents a UI that you expect to see *on your phone*)
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KartikPrabhu yeah basically
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tantek where you could add / delete icons too!
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tantek now we're getting somewhere
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tantek that would be fascinating
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GWG So, it will all look like iOS?
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KartikPrabhu GWG: not visual design
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KartikPrabhu isn't that similar to twitter's https://twitter.com/following but with contact info added
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KartikPrabhu I mean why have a "foillowing list" and "friends list" and "contact list" when you can just have a "people list"
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GWG KartikPrabhu: Doesn't Android call it people now?
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KartikPrabhu <shrugs> maybe...
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tantek GWG - iOS is a good starting point
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tantek for visual design
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KartikPrabhu tantek: what needs to happen here: https://kylewm.com/admin/addressbook to make it an implementation
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tantek so is FirefoxOS
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gRegor` Yeah, "People" is Google's contacts list on the phone. Analogous to contacts.google.com
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tantek except those icons don't launch websites - they open static duplicate copies of a "card" of information about a person that does not auto-update and goes out of date
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tantek so "contacts list" is a bad place to start design
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tantek this is why I wrote that blog post
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gRegor` But I hardly ever use "People" on my phone. Just "Phone" which automatically shows your starred people and most frequently contacted, plus search.
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gregorlove.com edited /nicknames-cache (+119) "Discussion section per IRC conversation" (view diff)
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voxpelli KartikPrabhu: Feels like you want a basic XFN list that is then populated by a nickname-cache
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gRegor` ^ Go forth and expand. KartikPrabhu, tantek :)
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voxpelli KartikPrabhu: unless you also want to add data to it yourself, but that would be to mix two things together
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GWG gRegor`: But is that because it isn't useful to you?
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KartikPrabhu voxpelli: possibly... but again tantek would (rightfully) say plumbing... adding own data would be good
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gRegor` GWG: More that the subset of "People"'s features I need to use is already captured by "Phone." Which is what I'd hope/expect.
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gRegor` I can quickly search anyone, contact frequent people, and see recent phone activity
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GWG gRegor`: but you can click the person to get the full detail view
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gRegor` Correct
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gRegor` All the more reason I don't really need to use "People"
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voxpelli KartikPrabhu: then it will probably be implementation specific how one actually assembles the page
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gRegor` I had to go into "All Apps" to confirm that was the name, because it's not on any of my screens.
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KartikPrabhu voxpelli: probably... but having a UX flow for it would be nice
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voxpelli KartikPrabhu: UX flow? For adding something to an adress book?
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KartikPrabhu yeah...
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KartikPrabhu I think kylewm has already done that
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voxpelli KartikPrabhu: Still going to be very implementation specific, don't you think? Just like every blog platform has their own way of posting blogs posts
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voxpelli and not something that is going to be exposed to a third party
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KartikPrabhu maybe
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gRegor` So my takeaway so far, if I'm following tantek correctly, is that we should focus on the simpler user-flow of manually add/edit/delete to the /nickname-cache (or whatever name one uses), then worry about the more complex flow of fetching the information by just entering a URL
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KartikPrabhu hmmm
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kartikprabhu.com edited /discovery (+110) "/* Separate Contact Page */ added me" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: if i am not mistaken mf2util does not follow the rel-me link to get the author info right?
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kylewm right
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kylewm it does not
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KartikPrabhu Who already has /authorship implemented and follows the rel-author link to find author info?
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: I meant rel-author but same thing applies :P
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voxpelli follows rel-author and rel-me in relspider, but fetches no h-card info yet
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KartikPrabhu hmm
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voxpelli I think one would have to make some special case for the about page – like following all rel-me:s within the same domain 1 step away, otherwise you can easily end up on Twitter etc
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voxpelli and that's perhaps not always feasible, especially not if you then should merge all of that h-card data together into a single identity
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gRegor` KartikPrabhu: It's not tested extensively, but my wm supports rel-authorship if no h-card is found
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KartikPrabhu voxpelli: if hardly anyone is following rel-author from a post page then I doubt people will follow rel-me to about page to get person info
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voxpelli KartikPrabhu: depends on the use case
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KartikPrabhu recieving webmentions and parsing for author info
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voxpelli adress book case eg. warrants more thorough lookup of info than a webmention does
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KartikPrabhu not really
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KartikPrabhu I send you a webmention from my post which only has a rel-author link to my about page and no h-card in it
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voxpelli I would never follow additional rel-me's when I receive a webmention, but rel-author is on my list
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KartikPrabhu exactly... but hardly anyone seems to use the rel-author
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voxpelli hardly anyone seems to consume you mean? well, all webmention endpoints out there are still pretty young so I wouldn't draw any conclusions from that really
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KartikPrabhu then address books are younger... and there is no point trying to come up with something whose couterpart in another more mature use-case is not yet adopted
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voxpelli KartikPrabhu: I wouldn't say that, the more selfdogfeeding from the more perspectives, the more progress can be made
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KartikPrabhu possibly
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@kevinmarks @Annemcx @ystrickler @ThisIsSethsBlog @ThisMuchWeKnow POSSE isn't developed by me it's an #indieweb idea http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (twitter.com/_/status/488449017336967168)
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@kevinmarks "@roundtrip: I just want to be able to point to whatever, wherever Twitter conversation https://t.co/gQ6Jrk81Vd" #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/488456147087544321)
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@kevinmarks "@zeynep: The Internet took off because common protocols let everything network. Not so our data. Everything is siloed, isolated." #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/488456823339356160)
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@shelterbelt The internet has a good idea then realizes it doesn't have a good answer. via @kevinmarks https://t.co/YdBKX8FMWE" #indieweb” (twitter.com/_/status/488459588077748224)
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@kevinmarks @shelterbelt we do have a good answer in fragmentions, especially when combined with webmention, see https://kartikprabhu.com/article/marginalia #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/488459953955282944)
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@shelterbelt RT @kevinmarks: @shelterbelt we do have a good answer in fragmentions, especially when combined with webmention, see https://t.co/02uK6YREL… (twitter.com/_/status/488460046091554816)
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kartikprabhu.com edited /fragmention (+404) "/* Discussion */ counterpoint betterlink's" (view diff)
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KevinMarks I am quietly amused by the Not All Browsers fragmention
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KartikPrabhu ha!
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks: I wonder if it is failing due to not escaping the : ?
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KartikPrabhu it is clearly a made up example
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KartikPrabhu hmm that does not seem to be the case...
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks: is your site running the latest version of the script?
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KevinMarks probably not, I haven't updated it recently
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KartikPrabhu maybe... once could see if it fails even on the latest version so a bug cna be filed
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KevinMarks I pasted it in - is there a canonically hosed version I can pull in instead?
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KevinMarks I suppose i could just do that off my site
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks: this is the one I'm using : https://github.com/chapmanu/fragmentions
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KevinMarks right, but can I hotlink to that from a script tag?
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KevinMarks or is that evil?
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KartikPrabhu ehh probably not... I don't think you can hotlink to github hosted files
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@shelterbelt .@kevinmarks suggested I read up on this post. Good approach to the problem. #fragmentions https://kartikprabhu.com/article/marginalia #indieweb” (twitter.com/_/status/488464866634522624)
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KevinMarks if I do <script src="https://raw.githubusercontent.com/chapmanu/fragmentions/master/fragmention.min.js"></script>
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KartikPrabhu oh that should work...
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KevinMarks but is that abuse of the repository?
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KartikPrabhu maybe... or it might not work since that file actually returns an HTML file not JS
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KartikPrabhu s/that file/that URL
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Loqi KartikPrabhu meant to say: maybe... or it might not work since that URL actually returns an HTML file not JS
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KevinMarks seems to work if I do it from a local file
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KevinMarks let's try
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KevinMarks yep, works
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KartikPrabhu the fragmentioned link still does not work in FF
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KevinMarks hm
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KartikPrabhu and now it doesn't work in chrome as well
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KevinMarks http://epeus.blogspot.com/2003/02/blog-power-laws-revisited.html##are:Weblog%20links
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KevinMarks hm. worked in safari before
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks! the betterlinks people were trying a "+" between : and Weblog
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KevinMarks well, there isn't whitespace there
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KartikPrabhu so the link they suggested is "http://epeus.blogspot.com/2003/02/blog-power-laws-revisited.html##come+to+are:+Weblog"
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KevinMarks though maybe we should allow it
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KartikPrabhu which erroneously worked in Chrome before and doesn't now
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KevinMarks presentationally <ol><li> is whitespace
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KevinMarks even if textually it ins't
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KartikPrabhu that would require quite some HTML juggling... do we want to specify which HTML elements are spaces... ?
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KevinMarks any block ones?
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KartikPrabhu I mean I can always set block elements to look inline with CSS... then that would get confusing to readers who want to hand-write fragmentions
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KartikPrabhu in any case.. this is a weird edge-case made up example... why would anyone link like that?
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KevinMarks I could add a space after the colon in the blog post
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KevinMarks to distinguish fromt he 1st mention of weblogs
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KartikPrabhu again... solving this one case
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KevinMarks the way you can make fragmentions in firefox (but not safari ro chrome) is interesting
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KartikPrabhu as in just copt paste without regard to space?
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KevinMarks select text
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KevinMarks copy
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KevinMarks go to URL bar
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KevinMarks right arrow
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KevinMarks type ##
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KevinMarks paste
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KevinMarks safari and chrome treat spaces in the url bar as meaning a google search of the domain
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KevinMarks FF escapes them to %20
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KartikPrabhu yeah... did that and FF does not put a space after the : which seems correct
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voxpelli dev shortcut: Open developer console and write encodeURIComponent('foo bar')
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KevinMarks so this is a fuzzy matching failure bug. the answer may be to whitespace strip text and innerText in the match algo, though that may overmatch
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KevinMarks getElementsByTextAggressive()
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KevinMarks ;)
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KartikPrabhu ha!... still using such made up examples to change behviour seems not right to me
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KevinMarks well, it may be a made-up case, but if we start using fragmention to highlight sentences (which is reasonable, especially for annotations) it may crop up again
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KevinMarks highlighting the actual words, rather than the paragraph equivalent is a reasinable idea
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KevinMarks see zeynep's use case today
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KevinMarks https://twitter.com/zeynep/status/488301061724065792
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@zeynep I want to link at sentence level. RT @jeffsonstein @zeynep if your outliner supports links in uri format, try "file://path/to/whatever" (twitter.com/_/status/488301061724065792)
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KevinMarks 'sentence' implies language parsing rather than structure parsing, but I expect linking to selected text is good
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KevinMarks seems to be what others are doing too, see Genius
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snarfed.org edited /h-card (+496) "/* Issues */ phrase partial h-card issue as user feature" (view diff)
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KevinMarks http://www.businessinsider.com/the-inside-story-of-how-rap-genius-fired-a-cofounder--and-just-raised-40-million-annotated-2014-7
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KevinMarks I should add that to /fragmention
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Loqi agreed.
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KevinMarks also $40m for annotations? hmmm
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks: phrase-level highlighting should be possible, but that would requite fragmention.js to play with the DOM. Add a <span fragmention> around the phrase
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kevinmarks.com edited /fragmention (+278) "/* Related work */ rapGenius" (view diff)
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KevinMarks interesting to compare their implementation to yours
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KevinMarks UX-wise I mean
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KartikPrabhu you mean the popping up on the right bit?
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KevinMarks I mean highlit phrases rather than discreet speech bubble
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KartikPrabhu aah yes... I wonder what happens when there are two annotations with overlapping phrases