#indiewebcamp 2014-07-15

2014-07-15 UTC
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GWG
Ah, Microsoft tech support just called me about my Windows computers
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KartikPrabhu1
kylewm: that is a good idea re: tags list
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GWG
snarfed: So my intention is to take your code for future use, as I haven't gotten to working on that.
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snarfed
GWG: ok! my code will be small, but i'll definitely ping you when it's ready
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GWG
snarfed: Thank you.
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GWG
snarfed: As usual, I appreciate and validate you.
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GWG
I don't want people to feel I'm always asking and never appreciating.
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snarfed
GWG: likewise!
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snarfed
no worries there
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GWG
snarfed: I really need to finish my theme project so I can return to the plugins.
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gRegor`
Messing around with regex for URLs . . . if I'm not back in a day, send help.
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gRegor`
Merci
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kylewm
snarfed: gRegor`: I added a semi-colon to the latter one this weekend
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gRegor`
Yeah, I was poking around indiecode first.
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gRegor`
TODO: drop it
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gRegor`
Haha
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gRegor`
Looking for links in plaintext, though, not necessarily in <a>
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gRegor`
Use case: extracting the links from note text to send webmentions to
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gRegor`
Via CASSIS, which has a killer regex. https://github.com/tantek/cassis/blob/master/cassis.js#L1118
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gRegor`
gruber's is also intense: https://gist.github.com/gruber/8891611
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gRegor`
Thanks, emma! I'll try it. That looks much more like what I wanted. :)
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KevinMarks
see, I just spent time styling webmentions instead of writing a template munger: http://www.kevinmarks.com
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KevinMarks
re url regexes, twitter have theirs open sourced and they just added all the bonkers new tlds
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kylewm
gRegor`: will it definitely always be plaintext, (i.e. never markdown or html)?
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kylewm
that definitely makes it easier
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gRegor`
Might be a mix of html and plaintext. I can move to plaintext, though I can imagine some scenarios where I'd rather use a title as the link text, not just the URL.
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kylewm
the worst thing was when i tried to autolink an HTML page that contained <a> links to bookmarklets
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gRegor`
But I think I can relatively easily (hah) look for URLs surrounded in quotation marks, too
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kylewm
that's all i did
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kylewm
negative lookbehind ['"]
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gRegor`
The one snarfed linked to?
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kylewm
emmak's looks better tho
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KevinMarks
you decide to use an open source regex
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KevinMarks
now you have an unknown number of problems?
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hmans
r͖̪̼͙̞̜͖e̦̟͈̫̯͢e̝̲g̢̠ͅͅe̺͍̳̦̹̙e̜̲e͓̙̟̼͓̕x̙x̶̦̥̤͉̩͙x͓̗̬̥͙̙p̡͚̻̠̖͉̺p̻p̜͚̮̲̗͟
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kylewm
The <center> cannot hold!
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snarfed
KevinMarks: s/open source//
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snarfed
backtracking—
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Loqi
re2 has 1 karma
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gRegor`
what is regex?
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gRegor`
Think we need a page?
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gRegor`
{{stub}} <dfn>Regex</dfn> is a dark art.
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gRegor`
"like Visual Basic only worse"
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gRegor`
That was awesome, KevinMarks
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KevinMarks
that is a canon-worthy piece of writing
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gRegor`
Is "the center cannot hold" a reference to something else?
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KevinMarks
it's from The Wasteland
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KevinMarks
things fall apart/the center cannot hold
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KevinMarks
wait, isn't it?
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KevinMarks
oh no, it's The Second Coming
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KevinMarks
fails at poetry recollection
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edrex_proper, KevinMarks2, snarfed, fmarier, brianloveswords, rektide and ericholscher joined the channel
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bret
glennjones++\
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Loqi
glennjones has 3 karma
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KartikPrabhu
bret: do you know of a working example of transmat?
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@lucas_gonze
I would rather publish on an independent server than Medium. But I will get more readers on Medium. Ideas on resolving that? #indieweb
(twtr.io/oWg4m1wyNw)
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@kyle_wm
@lucas_gonze some folks (namely @kevinmarks) have had good luck posting on their own site and “syndicating” to Medium. #indieweb
(twtr.io/oWgsJurj00)
dysfun, brianloveswords, fmarier, snarfed, kylewm, KartikPrabhu, chrissaad, emmak, frzn, pauloppenheim, fofr, animai, squeakytoy, Moestradamus, KevinMarks, catsup, realzies, yakker, h1ro, Garbee, GWG, JasonO, teknotus, protman_, jacus_, peat, lmjabreu, Jeena, etymancer, sdboyer, rhiaro, jtzl_, mlinksva, finchd, galfert, tabraldes, XgF, ellton, PMurphs, _axx, onewheelskyward, jancborchardt, wagle, JonathanNeal, ben_thatmustbeme, bret, ozatomic, b0bg0d____, Nagahz, hober and ericholscher joined the channel
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Loqi
woot
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gRegor`
Though emmak doesn't accept wm for just http://notenoughneon.com/, so I got an http 400
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emmak
gRegor`: nice!
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emmak
and yeah, i'm not sure what to do with webmentions to the root domain, so it only accepts webmentions to posts for now
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gRegor`
Makes sense. I'm not doing anything with wm sent to / yet either.
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gRegor`
My wm support was set up based on the CMS, so initially i only accepted them to valid post IDs. When I added the notes as a plugin, though, I realized i needed to open it up to more paths.
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kylewm
I suggested syndication to medium... does this reply make any sense? https://twitter.com/lucas_gonze/status/488890316808654848
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@lucas_gonze
@kyle_wm I can do multiple pushes once in a while, but I can hardly find the time to do one push, much less more than one.
(twtr.io/oWibBCGMu8)
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gRegor`
Hmm, like pushing multiple articles?
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KartikPrabhu
i think push means to post copies elsewhere
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kylewm
oh, hmm
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kylewm
surely, time to write an article >> copy paste it to medium?
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kylewm
ha, he recommended KevinMarks's "Fragmentions for poets" article on Medium... so apparently I am preaching to the converted
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KartikPrabhu
no i think he likes the article
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KartikPrabhu
copy pasting might not always be easy
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KartikPrabhu
also why copy + paste to Medium when you can just write on Medium
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@kevinmarks
@lucas_gonze @kyle_wm or, if you like their editor, write on medium, export, post the html on your site and add the link
(twtr.io/oWkWAwkr8o)
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kylewm
KartikPrabhu: re a working example of transmat.io, glennjones.net is running it based on the colophon
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: oh ok I couldn't find the colophone I suppose... good
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kylewm
but I feel like at some point I saw something on his site that looked more like a directory/document hierarchy
lukebrooker, KevinMarks2, KartikPrabhu, chrissaad, phil80, cweiske, jsilvestre, sammachin, sankha93, petermolnar, glennjones, Sebastien-L, krendil, pfefferle and michielbdejong joined the channel
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@dch__
@janl the hoodie indieweb clip is simply beautiful!
(twtr.io/oXB3GMZAkM)
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Loqi
Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
dysfun, fmarier, kylewm, fofr, animai, KevinMarks, catsup, realzies, h1ro, Garbee, GWG, JasonO, teknotus, protman_, jacus_, peat, lmjabreu, Jeena, etymancer, sdboyer, rhiaro, jtzl_, mlinksva, finchd, galfert, tabraldes, XgF, ellton, PMurphs, _axx, onewheelskyward, jancborchardt, wagle, JonathanNeal, ben_thatmustbeme, bret, ozatomic, b0bg0d____, Nagahz, hober, ericholscher, phil80, cweiske, jsilvestre, sankha93, petermolnar, Sebastien-L, krendil, pfefferle, glennjones, adactio, indie-visitor, rektide, rascul, muhh, the_merlin, michielbdejong, jonnybarnes, bitraten, hmans, Guerillero, aranasaurus, halorgium, memecake, kronda, Phae, walkah, aaronpk, tommorris, smcgregor, binbasti, KevinMarks2, rschulman, Leeky, mdik, Hodgestar, irdan, saurik, donpdonp, arlen, iboxifoo, hadleybeeman, bigbluehat, CaptainCalliope, ngoldman, piney0, amblin, hugoroyd, tallpaul_, mattl, benward, voxpelli, jden, rknLA, hidgw, sparverius, glennjones_, sammachin, mko, edrex, nemo-yiannis, pdurbin and reidab joined the channel
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pfefferle
good morning
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voxpelli
pfefferle: morning!
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pfefferle
hey voxpelli
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petermolnar
s/monring/morning
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petermolnar
still waking up
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Loqi
petermolnar meant to say: 'morning
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cweiske
s/e/f/
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Loqi
cweiske meant to say: fff
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cweiske
s/ee/fe/
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Loqi
cweiske meant to say: fee
wordius, glennjones, squeakytoy, pfefferle, scor, brianloveswords, Moestradamus, Sebastien-L, jeffporter_, jeffporter and cuibonobo joined the channel
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glennjones
jeffporter: welcome
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glennjones
jeffporter: I have a couple of tools to help test your webmentions setup there at http://tools.transmat.io
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glennjones
jeffporter: I also fired a mention from my blog to one of your notes - http://glennjones.net/notes/2014-07-14-3 so we test thing
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jeffporter
Used the webmention/endpoint test: returned a 400 with "Error: Invalid URI \"wordius.com\" - wordius.com"
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cweiske
glennjones, what json schema is that in the docs?
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jeffporter
But I do have your test note in my WP comments
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jeffporter
glennjones But I do have your test note in my WP comments
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glennjones
jeffporter: if you try your full address http://wordius.com/ you will find it comes back OK
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jeffporter
glennjones: Okay, I get a 200 code on http://wordius.com
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glennjones
jeffporter: if you then try GET /webmention/mention/validate/ with source: http://glennjones.net/notes/2014-07-14-3 and target: http://wordius.com/uk-space-port/ you will see the web pages are coded correctly
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cweiske
had bookmarked it some days ago
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glennjones
jeffporter: then use /webmention/mention/forward/ with same URLs source: http://glennjones.net/notes/2014-07-14-3 and target: http://wordius.com/uk-space-port/ - this sends the webmention and tests your site
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glennjones
jeffporter: /webmention/mention/forward/ return 200 from your wordpress plugin to say the request was a success, so the mention should now be in your comments list for that post ?
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glennjones
cweiske: I built a node.js plugin https://github.com/glennjones/hapi-swagger use it for most of my APIs now.
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glennjones
jeffporter: are the tests working?
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jeffporter
glennjones: Yep, the tests are working and appearing in comments. So I guess WebMentions are fine
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glennjones
jeffporter: Is that the WP templates don’t show comments?
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glennjones
jeffporter: Sorry got to go now have visiters
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jeffporter
glennjones: No, have removed comments from WP templates. Will add back for these WP Status post format updates
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pfefferle
jeffporter can you see the webmentions in the comments section in the admin area?
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jeffporter
glennjones: Yes. Going to work on adding them back for Status posts, maybe others. Integrating Web Intents on Status posts is my biggest stumbling block at the moment.
gRegor`, pfefferle_ and KevinMarks joined the channel
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tantek.com
edited /2014 (-75) "/* East Sponsors */ no sponsored east preparty"
(view diff)
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kylewm.com
uploaded /File:kylewm-tag-speedbar-2014-07-15.gif "Clickable list of recent tags on kylewm.com"
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kylewm.com
edited /Red_Wind (+114) "/* Screenshots */ added screencast of tags speedbar"
(view diff)
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mko
kylewm++
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Loqi
kylewm has 25 karma
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mko
kylewm: Speedbar looks great
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JonathanNeal
Sorry for being so absent the last week. I am so eager to get my site back up.
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kylewm
thanks mko!
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gRegor`
kylewm: What's your algorithm for frequency / recency?
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gRegor`
frecency, hah
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gRegor`
Not sure I understand the distinction on /photo between "photo" and "note with photo" posts.
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gRegor`
'How' lists "note with a primary image...
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gRegor`
But then there's a 'Notes with photos examples' section "Not quite photo posts, but similar, notes with embedded photos are another approach to photo-like posts."
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gRegor`
If there's an mf2 difference, could someone add it to that page?
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GWG
I need some clarity
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gRegor`
aaronpk's example link on there also seems to fall under 'note with photo'
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GWG
I'm making a child theme of my mf2 compliant Wordpress theme, and the parent theme isn't finished yet. Is that nuts?
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gRegor`
gives GWG some clarity
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GWG
gRegor`: Have you been talking to Loqi?
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gRegor`
Probably nuts. :)
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gRegor`
Loqi's been slacking
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Loqi
dude
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gRegor`
Don't you "dude" me
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kylewm
gRegor`: the distinction I use is that notes and articles can embed arbitrary images, but photo posts have a specific layout where it displays a small version of the image with a link to the larger version of the image
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mko
The way I understand them, "Photo" vs "Note with Photo" are pretty distinctly different. A "Photo" post is basically a photo without any other content (i.e. photo filename = e-content, p-summary, p-name, u-photo) or where the photo is the entire e-content (and u-photo) accompanied by a p-summary / p-name. A "Note with Photo" is a note post that includes a photo referenced in the e-content that is attached and marked up as u-photo.
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kylewm
I didn't want to hard code [![](img?size=medium)](img) in all the markdown contents
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gRegor`
mko, that makes sense, but what about "with text (caption) only following"?
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kylewm
also eventually I plan to have photo posts include multiple posts in a nicer way than https://kylewm.com/photo/2014/06/29/1
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kylewm
multiple photos*
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gRegor`
mko: that also seems to imply multiple photo posts aren't allowed, or would be 'notes with photo'?
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mko
gRegor`: In the case of a a photo with a caption but no other content, that is the p-summary and/or p-name of the photo post
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mko
Multiple photo posts would be notes, articles, or some other content type on my system.
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gRegor`
Then I think this is a photo post, though the text isn't explicitly intended as a caption, but rather my commentary on the photo: http://gregorlove.com/notes/2014/07/15/2/
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gRegor`
And, importantly, the mf2 markup on that is no different than a note. Thus my confusion. :)
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mko
Though I do have a gallery view which allows multiple tagged photos to be viewed simultaneously.
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mko
So here's the fun part about h-entry, it's effectively a base class that almost never needs extending
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snarfed
can't wait to (hopefully :P) see conclusions here wikified
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snarfed
we (read: emmak) will eagerly implement them in bridgy publish (https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/85)
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gRegor`
Since my notes always have the text content as the p-name, all I have to do is add a u-photo and it's a "photo" post. But it's also a "note with photo" :)
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mko
I'm using the raw h-entry JSON format as my base class for all posts right now, and I've not had to add anything extra except for a few metadata fields that I'm using that aren't actually needed but power some minor enhancements on my site (i.e. reading time, word count, character limits, etc)
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mko
gRegor`: I believe tantek considers note to be the base class of most post types.
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mko
I consider "entry" to be my base class, in reference to h-entry, and a "note" is any "entry" that uses the same content for e-content, p-summary, and p-name.
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kylewm
in re to bridgy, note vs. photo distinction is interesting w/r/t POSSE ... if the image is the primary content or just decoration (in which case you might not want to posse it)
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snarfed
kylewm++
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Loqi
kylewm has 26 karma
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GWG
Well, I know many people who use an image in article posts to make it more eye catching
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GWG
That's the thumbnail/featured image idea in Wordpress, for example
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KartikPrabhu
sometimes feels we are trying to fit square pegs in round holes... with strictly classifying content types in this way
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snarfed
KartikPrabhu++
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Loqi
KartikPrabhu has 47 karma
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snarfed
(just between us, i don't use post types at all. don't tell anyone!)
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mko
KartikPrabhu: I don't think we're "strictly classifying" -- I think that's why this discussion is even happening. The nice thing is that if you want to not extend the base class of "entry" (or "post") you never have to. If you want to, you can do so for whatever purposes you want, though you should realize that not everyone will necessarily do the same.
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gregorlove.com
edited /photos (+548) "Discussion, link to IRC"
(view diff)
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KartikPrabhu
is this a "photo post" or "note with photos" or "article with photos" or "photo gallery" https://kartikprabhu.com/article/colour-form ?
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mko
Looks like all of the above to me.
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mko
:-)
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KartikPrabhu
yeah that is what I am saying
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mko
But you specified "article" so I'm guessing the intent is "article."
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KartikPrabhu
why come up with some arbitrary criteria for a consensus definition of a post type?
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gRegor`
I agree on the strictly classifying. I'm more interested in whether there's supposed to be a different mf2 markup than whether my interface is strictly "post an article/note/photo/whatever"
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KartikPrabhu
Article vs Notes I get... but beyond that most of them are/seem fuzzy
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KartikPrabhu
gregor`: there isn't a diff mf2 markup for article vs notes even
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gRegor`
I'm also interested in clarifying that /photo page, which seems . . . confusing
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kylewm
I think u-photo is it ... e.g., tantek.com/2014/171/b1/microformats-org-turns-nine doesn't have a u-photo on the microformats logo
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gregorlove.com
edited /photos (+20) "/* Discussion */"
(view diff)
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KartikPrabhu
but u-photo can also denote a representative image for an article
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gRegor`
True, though /note would lead one to believe a note shouldn't have a title.
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KartikPrabhu
gregor`: note has a title... it is just the content
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KartikPrabhu
yeah I have seen that. again Article vs Note I have no problem with (though they have the same mf2 except some properties are defaulted)
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mko
Think of it this way: on Instagram, you can post text content with your photo, but the primary content is the photo. On Twitter, you can post text content with your photo, and the primary content is the combination of the two. I would consider the post on Instagram a /photo post while the post on Twitter would be a /note post in my mind.
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KartikPrabhu
sound the same to me
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KartikPrabhu
there is a post with text and photo
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mko
From a base class, yes. From usage and UX, no.
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gRegor`
Yeah... so what's the use case here for separating photo / note / note with photo?
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KartikPrabhu
what is the UX diff for the reader?
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kylewm
the distinction is more apparent on Facebook ... a photo post is totally different than a link to an article with a preview image
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gRegor`
KartikPrabhu: You're right. I was mixing up presentation with markup. I haven't done so yet, but I've set up my notes so they can have a (displayed) title, not just the text as the default p-name.
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kylewm
here's what happened when I tried to post a photo the as a preview image http://indiewebcamp.com/File:facebook-post-with-preview-image.png
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gRegor`
I also put HTML in my notes, so I blur the lines a lot I guess :)
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KartikPrabhu
gregor`: yeah. I have posted a "Repost" with added commentary... but it is a repost damnit
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gRegor`
:)
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gRegor`
So is the reason for these distinctions mostly in how our content interacts with the silos?
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mko
Another example, from my own experience. I was the design lead at hi5. We did research into how users were using the Photos feature versus the Status Update feature (which had the ability to post a photo). Users posted photos without any text the vast majority of the time. When users posted status updates with photos, on the other hand, they almost never did so without accompanying text. On top of that, we found that when there was text
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: yeah have seen that before. but would you would take both photos as u-photo
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mko
accompanying a photo in the Photos section, it was almost always a caption related to the photo (with very few exceptions), whereas those in a status update that would go on the Friend Feed typically was conversational and not directly related to the photo.
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mko
We also did research into the longevity of photos. Photos posted in the photos section would be deleted about 15% of the time over the lifetime of an account. Photos posted as a status update were deleted less than 2% of the time over the lifetime of an account.
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KartikPrabhu
what is "directly related to photo" in this context?
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mko
Text saying "Statue of Liberty" when referring to a photo of the Statue of Liberty.
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KartikPrabhu
do you mean people posted a status "hanging on the beach" but posted a photo of a banana?
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mko
Versus "Yay! Visiting NYC Today!" when referring to a photo of the Statue of Liberty.
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Loqi
woot
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KartikPrabhu
but they are related
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mko
One is descriptive, one is experiential.
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KartikPrabhu
so the rule is "captions are always descriptive"?
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mko
It's an important distinction for social interaction.
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KartikPrabhu
<shrugs> seems like i don't get it
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gRegor`
is confused, too
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snarfed
[tangent: mko: you were at hi5? oh man, funny. i was one of the app engine founders, and we were all excited when you (hi5) bought buddypoke since it was our first user acquisition]
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mko
snarfed: When was that?
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snarfed
the acquisition? maybe 2009
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gRegor`
/photo only makes sense to me as a way to filter post types. Like kylewm does
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KartikPrabhu
gregor`: yes! if a reader wants to see all the photos you have posted
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mko
Ah, I wasn't there until 2010. I was design lead until 2012.
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KartikPrabhu
but then it seems like a "Tag" or "category" not post-type
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gRegor`
Exactly
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mko
Okay. Here's a practical example.
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mko
That has lots of photos and images in it.
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mko
It is not a photo post.
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mko
Because it's not? It's a long-form article with supporting photos.
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mko
The intent of the content is multimedia consumption with the emphasis on the text content.
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KartikPrabhu
so what is the intent diff. in "photo post" vs "note with a photo" vs "photo with a caption" ?
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mko
Also, look at the photos. Every photo's caption is descriptive text about the photo.
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KartikPrabhu
mko: I am not disputing that there are lot of posts that fall into one criteria or the other. But there are also many that fall into none or all
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KartikPrabhu
are we to reject the ones that don't fit into our (future) definition ?
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mko
And I'm not disputing that. What I'm specifically saying is that if they don't fit into any of them, don't put them in there. If you want to classify something across all the different post types, do it. Ontologies are meant to be self-effacing. You make use of the classification system how you want to, and as the community evolves, so does the usage of that classification system.
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KartikPrabhu
In any case mko, gregor` and kylewm: you should capture this on the wiki where my confusion will not be intermixed for now.
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gRegor`
It's here: please expand: http://indiewebcamp.com/photo#Discussion
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KartikPrabhu
mko: yes. but then what is the use of having some way of classifying on the wiki ?
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mko
I don't think that it was ever intended to be prescriptive.
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KartikPrabhu
ahh then we agree more than we disagree mko :)
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mko
I believe it should be framed a bit more as "This is how people are currently using /photo."
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mko
Because, in truth, that's all it is.
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gRegor`
That's how I generally approach the wiki as a whole.
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KartikPrabhu
gregor`: that is not how it mostly comes across to people who are new I feel
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gRegor`
But somebody at some point felt a reason to diffentiate "photo" and "note with photo" and I don't get it. :)
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gRegor`
Agreed
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gRegor`
Even if we don't have a conclusion, please add to that discussion section I started. I summarized my perspective/confusion
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KartikPrabhu
at least on some pages which don't have clear-cut agreement there should be some clause saying "the current idea" or "current consensus" or soemthgin
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kylewm
gRegor`: does it help if you think about it from Bridgy Publish's point of view? look at an h-entry and automatically determine whether it should be posted as a photo or a note?
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kylewm
yeah it should almost be /photo-brainstorming
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gRegor`
That does help. So is bridgy looking for a u-photo?
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snarfed
kylewm++
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snarfed
gRegor`: it doesn't do photos at all yet. https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/85 tracks adding that
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snarfed
that's the current straw man logic though: whether there's a (top-level?) u-photo
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snarfed
no clue if that will be good enough
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gRegor`
I think a top-level u-photo is a good start.
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: if 'photo' can have a caption how does an algorithm decide whether the text is note content or caption?
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kylewm
no idea :P
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gRegor`
Magic, KartikPrabhu.
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kylewm
wait, what is the difference?
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gRegor`
that's what bridgy runs on, obviously.
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: exactly!
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gRegor`
ding ding.
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gRegor`
h-as-photo could be another indicator
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KartikPrabhu
I as a human am confused as to how to decide...
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KartikPrabhu
so again, is there some UX reason to have photo and note with photo and photo with caption different? Also author-UX and reader-UX both...?
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KartikPrabhu
reader = human reader not /reader
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kylewm
reader-UX, I suppose photo posts could use a lightbox to show the image, whereas notes with a photo would not?
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KartikPrabhu
I click on the photo in a note or article it shows a bigger size in a lightbox or whatever
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kylewm
like, what about https://kartikprabhu.com/article/indieweb-love-blog ... I would not want to click on one of the images and get a lightbox gallery of all of them
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mko
I still think that the definition of a photo post is one where e-content and u-photo are the same.
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KartikPrabhu
mko: tantek voice "plumbing"
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: why not? maybe someone wants to see all the pictures
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mko
And that if there's a caption or accompanying text, it's part of p-summary / p-name
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GWG
KartikPrabhu: You have a little tantek in your head too?
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gRegor`
mko: you've just described a not.
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voxpelli
Regarding photo and captions – perhaps use HTML5 <figure> and <figcaption> ?
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gRegor`
s/not/note/
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Loqi
gRegor` meant to say: mko: you've just described a note.
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KartikPrabhu
I have a little version of everyone I know
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mko
gRegor`: How so?
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KartikPrabhu
voxpelli: I use those. but again plumbing
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voxpelli
Also – perhaps look what Tumblr does – Tumblr has the distinction between notes with images and photos
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gRegor`
Is it a note or a photo?
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gRegor`
or a "note with photo"?
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KartikPrabhu
skip all the HTML+mf2 talk... we need a definition similar to "A note is a post that is typically short unstructured* plain text, written & posted quickly, that has its own permalink page."
#
kylewm
KartikPrabhu++
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Loqi
KartikPrabhu has 48 karma
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mko
Okay, KartikPrabhu.
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KartikPrabhu
switches spots and goes to get lunch bbiab
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voxpelli
KartikPrabhu: Perhaps take inspiration from http://activitystrea.ms/registry/object_types/ then? :)
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snarfed
KartikPrabhu: well, kind of. we also have the bridgy publish use case. it fetches post html and wants to know, programmatically, whether to posse it with a photo or not (and if so, which one)
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mko
A photo is a post that emphasizes photo content over text content that has its own permalink page.
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gRegor`
Attempt: "A photo is a type of note whose content is only a photo and, optionally, a caption for the photo."
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KartikPrabhu
snarfed: I am sure, once we get a human definition we can figure out the mf2 and bridgy algorithms
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snarfed
KartikPrabhu++ sgtm
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kylewm
snarfed: I'm getting the impression that the markup for that doesn't exist yet
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mko
And gRegor`: That looks like a note with a photo to me, as you've got more than just a photo and caption in there. Looks like a repost, too.
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gRegor`
mko: it matches your description though: Photo, and the caption is the p-name.
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gRegor`
I didn't *intend* it as a caption, but mf2 doesn't care about that really.
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snarfed
kylewm: eh, i bet we can do it with existing mf2 plus some simple alg (like authorship or representative h-card)
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mko
Not in the HTML content it doesn't.
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gRegor`
And imagine it was hosted on my own site, not on my flickr. :)
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gRegor`
Huh?
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snarfed
(kylewm: maybe the alg is more than just top-level u-photo, maybe not. we can implement whatever)
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mko
In the HTML content, there's no explicit p-name. Therefore, the p-name is the aggregate of the e-content. That's not the same as what I was saying.
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kylewm
snarfed: ok! i like your optimism :)
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gRegor`
There's an explicit p-name
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mko
Not in the HTML that's published, unless you're duplicating content by posting the contents of items[0].properties.name in addition to the same content that's in items[0].properties.content.html
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jenmontes.com
created /User:Jenmontes.com (+338) "Initial post"
(view diff)
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gRegor`
Yes, in the HTML that's published. <div class="p-name e-content">
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mko
Ah. That's not reflected in your JSON. Got it.
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gRegor`
Yeah it is. The "name" :)
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mko
But if you parse your e-content, it doesn't match the "name" in your JSON.
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gRegor`
"name": [". . . ladies.\r\nvia @sarah5" ]
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mko
And your content would parse as "gRegulator . . . ladies. . . . ladies via @sarah5"
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gRegor`
Matches the e-content.value.
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mko
e-content.value isn't how a parser would see your content, though.
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mko
content.value*
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jenmontes.com
edited /IRC_People (+56) "Added myself (cuibonobo) to the list."
(view diff)
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mko
It's going to parse the HTML.
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kylewm
"Illustrator for Archer on FX"!!!
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gRegor`
If someone chooses to parse content.html for some reason instead of just using the h-entry name value...
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gRegor`
That's pretty weird.
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cuibonobo
kylewm: haha! it’s always nice to see a fan :)
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gRegor`
Launch break
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kylewm
cuibonobo: so cool, welcome!
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mko
Strange.
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mko
pin13 doesn't parse the image properly as part of e-content.
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mko
"properly" by the interpretation that I've always had.
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cuibonobo
kylewm: thank you! i’ll just be lurking for a little while. still reading up on indieweb concepts
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mko
Anyway, I need to get back to work anyway. Nice to posit about the various /photo v /note stuff
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gRegor`
Whoa. Welcome, cuibonobo! Um, love Archer.
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cuibonobo
gRegor`: thank you! everyone that works here is very proud of it. :)
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gRegor`
Rightfully so!
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mko
cuibonobo++ for getting herself IndieAuth'd and for Archer being awesome
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Loqi
cuibonobo has 1 karma
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cuibonobo
omg my first karma. thank you!
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mko
:-)
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mko
You're welcome. Thank you for Archer.
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kylewm
cuibonobo: luxagraf is in GA too, but I think Athens (boo, I'm a Tech boy)
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cuibonobo
kylewm: oh yeah? good to know. I was in Tech too for about 2 seconds.
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gRegor`
mko: I did just fix a missing quotation mark in my post, so if you refresh the content.html will look more correct.
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mko
gRegor`: Still confused as to why pin13's mf parser doesn't parse the img into the content.value -- that's not how I interpreted parsing e-content.
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mko
Regardless, it doesn't make much of a difference. What I had said before is not the same as that. I specifically said that for my definition of a photo post the e-content is wholly the photo while the p-name/p-summary is the text content.
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mko
That's how I defined them in my system, anyway. I can add photos to any post type in my posting interface, but if it's a "photo" post type, the e-content filed becomes a file URI instead that is equivalent to u-photo instead of any text content.
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mko
Again, plumbing, but the definition was a purposeful UX decision.
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kylewm
mko: I agree that <img alt> should be in the [content][value]
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gRegor`
e-content is the raw HTML inside the specified element, afaik
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mko
kylewm: Thanks. Felt I was going crazy.
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mko
"e-content: full content of the entry"
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mko
If the full content of the entry is just a photo, it's just the URI for the photo (or you could say it's the entire <img> html tag if you wanted).
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gRegor`
and the caption
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gRegor`
Maybe a pastebin of the markup you're describing will help me more.
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mko
No. That was my point. That's not part of the entry content in my definition. That's a summary or title of the content.
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mko
Sure
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gRegor`
My usage of p-summary has been very limited (once, actually), and it was inside the e-content of an article.
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gRegor`
And on my notes, the p-name and e-content are on the same element, wrapping the whole content of the note.
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kylewm
worth noting that mf2py doesn't appear to follow the spec for replacing <img> with its alt text either
#
kylewm
and if it did, it would break my ability to tell this post is a note and not an article
#
kylewm
it would think ". . . ladies.\r\nvia @sarah5" was the title, and "gRegulator . . . ladies.. . . ladies.\r\nvia @sarah5" was the content
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gRegor`
Hm
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gRegor`
Because you'd compare the parsed name to the content.value and see they're the same, thus=note?
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mko
Correct
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mko
gRegor`: Compare these two markups: https://gist.github.com/mko/f05e8cb0d2423f6deaa7
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gRegor`
The latter gives me an empty content.html and content.value. Is that correct?
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mko
h-as-note will have e-content and p-name the same ("Description of Image Description of Image" or "/path/to/image Description of Image"). h-as-photo will have different e-content ("/path/to/image" since the e-content is the same as u-photo) and p-name ("Description of Image")
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gRegor`
Using KartikPrabhu's mf2py at least
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KartikPrabhu
mko: h-as-* is not microformats
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mko
h-as-* was just how I was describing those two files. They're both h-entry.
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KartikPrabhu
also the img alt should be in the content-value but I don't think mf2py does that yet
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gRegor`
confirmed on php-mf2 as well
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KartikPrabhu
cuibonobo: welcome!
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cuibonobo
thanks!
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mko
In any case, my interpretation of e-content on an element is that you take its contents. For an image, that's the src value. For a div, that's the contents of said div. For a time element, that's the datetime property.
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gRegor`
u-content will put the path in the content.value though
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KartikPrabhu
u-content will not give an HTML property
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gRegor`
Correct.
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gRegor`
You wanted content to have /path/to/image
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gRegor`
It's blank in your second example, by mf2py and php-mf2 currently.
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KartikPrabhu
cuibonobo: note that we are not always this tech-pedantic :P you just caught us in a whirpool of darkness
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mko
Yeah. Somebody started asking why.
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gRegor`
Sometimes we start out confused and get more confused! (that's me)
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mko
I don't see u-content documented anywhere.
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gRegor`
It's a general URL property.
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mko
Oh. Gotcha.
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gRegor`
Good to know about <img> alt. I'll add an issue to php-mf2 if it isn't there yet.
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KartikPrabhu
looks for prposed definitions
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gRegor`
Although if you use u-content, you don't get content.html and content.value.
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gRegor`
It sounds like that's what you're expecting, though. Just the image URL as the value of content.
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cuibonobo
KartikPrabhu: this is actually perfect because i was interested in how stuff like indieauth and webmentions came to be. i imagine it was a process similar to this :)
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mko
Based on http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-end.html#serializing-html-fragments e-content should result in exactly what I just said. The qualified name of an img is itself (the full img element).
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KartikPrabhu
cuibonobo: yes! we want to make something and then argue about how to best make it :P
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KartikPrabhu
thought right now it is the "inmates runnign the asylum" since people who usually keep some sanity are away ;)
#
KartikPrabhu
is also an inmate btws
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gRegor`
resembles that remark
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kylewm
although ideally, we'd make a bunch of somethings, and then compare them...
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kylewm
hahaha
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mko
kylewm: Technically, I think that's what we're doing. lol
#
mko
I made my photo posts a significantly different way than gRegor` and KartikPrabhu had interpreted them, I believe.
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gRegor`
's eyes glaze over at whatwg serializing algorithm
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mko
Yeah. The whatwg doc is pretty dense.
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cuibonobo
the fact that there are so many different interpretations and yet it all still works is what i find so attractive
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GWG
cuibonobo: Isn't that the beauty of any creative endeavor?
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kylewm
to absolve my guilt about bikeshedding, let's make some concrete improvements to the wiki page
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kylewm
I think that the suggestion to add "with an optional caption" to the definition is good -- and encompasses the idea that it's not just text but text that is in service of the image
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mko
Agreed.
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mko
I think that it would be good to state "Some who are doing this use p-summary as the optional caption."
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mko
And you can use me as an example, though I don't have live links yet.
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gRegor`
Guys, I was productive: https://github.com/indieweb/php-mf2/issues/53 ;)
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mko
gRegor`++
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gRegor`
!give gRegor` his karma
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Loqi
gives his karma to gRegor`
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gRegor`
Thank you
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mko
Does your name not parse properly because of the `?
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gRegor`
Yeah.
#
gRegor`
aaronpk had it fixed at one point, it worked for a while, then the regex vanished and it stopped working
#
mko
That's no bueno.
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gRegor`
I think it got overwritten and wasn't in vc. Oops. No biggie, though.
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kylewm.com
edited /photos (+1008) "added "with optional caption" to the definition and quote from mko about hi5 research"
(view diff)
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gregorlove.com
edited /photos (+230) "/* Discussion */ follow-up, link to mko's sample HTML"
(view diff)
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@_crossdiver
Let's #indieweb our communication. /cc @usetalky #otalk @jitsinews #WebRTC
(twtr.io/oYA2V5yE2g)
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gRegor`
documentation++
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Loqi
documentation has 0 karma
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gRegor`
Lulz
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@webrtcdigest
RT @_crossdiver: Let's #indieweb our communication. /cc @usetalky #otalk @jitsinews #WebRTC
(twtr.io/oYAW2mWAux)
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kylewm.com
edited /photos (+678) "/* POSSE */ add Brid.gy usecase"
(view diff)
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snarfed
kylewm++
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Loqi
kylewm has 27 karma
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mko
Off to Physical Therapy. I'll be back later. Once I get all of my ducks in a row, I've got a ton of documentation to write up. lol
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snarfed.org
edited /photos (+71) "/* Distinguishing Photos from Notes */ github issue"
(view diff)
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emmak
kylewm: thanks for documenting that
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KartikPrabhu
ahh ok people did useful things when I was gone! (correlation != causation) ;)
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gRegor`
Welcome back to the asylum
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KartikPrabhu
thanks... had a good trip in the physics confusion gang in the meantime
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kartikprabhu.com
edited /photos (+230) "/* Discussion */ added UI/UX pov and call for examples"
(view diff)
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pfefferle
snarfed GWG finally got the webmention-for-comments plugin ready to test… I am curious about your feedback https://github.com/pfefferle/wordpress-webmention-for-comments
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GWG
pfefferle: I'll have a look shortly.
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pfefferle
snarfed GWG should work nicely with the webmention and semantic linkback plugin
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GWG
pfefferle: What is your testing protocol?
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snarfed
pfefferle++ awesome, nice work!
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Loqi
pfefferle has 3 karma
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pfefferle
GWG let’s comment a bit ;)
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pfefferle
snarfed thanks ;)
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pfefferle
GWG it works with threaded comment and tries to send a webmention to the author url of the parent comment
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pfefferle
so, I am off for now… have a nice evening!
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GWG
What should we comment on?
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GWG
Anyone have a post?
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kylewm.com
uploaded /File:kylewm-note-with-photo-2014-07-15.png "a note with a photo that is not a /photo"
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pfefferle
GWG every post on my blog ;)
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kylewm.com
edited /photos (+301) "/* Discussion */ added note with photo that is not a photo post"
(view diff)
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gRegor`
Good wiki work. tantek will be proud.
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kylewm
what's going on with Wordpress comments, GWG? working on threading?
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GWG
kylewm: pfefferle is, and wants us to test it.
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GWG
kylewm: I may need your mug again
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GWG
kylewm: You are a staple
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GWG
hopes kylewm knows he is kidding
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kylewm
haha, yes :)
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: re: your note with a photo example. If you were to post a photo with a caption, how would the posting UI differ. How would the reading UX differ?
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kylewm
I need to change my picture though, it infuriates my partner...
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kylewm
KartikPrabhu: my photo posting UI is simpler... just select a photo type a caption, done. Posting a note has more options... you can upload arbitrary documents and link or embed them in the content
#
GWG
kylewm: Why?
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kylewm
GWG: she says it's too shadowy / doesn't look like me
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KartikPrabhu
so how do you choose which one to use?
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kylewm
still working on that...I wasn't sure which to use for the gif I posted this morning for example
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KartikPrabhu
ahh ok look forward to examples of this... as it will make me less confused
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kylewm.com
edited /photos (+22) "/* Distinguishing Photos from Notes */"
(view diff)
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kylewm.com
edited /photos (+1) "/* Distinguishing Photos from Notes */ replace "posts with u-photo" with "notes with u-photo""
(view diff)
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gRegor`
Is there a PDX location for HWC tomorrow? http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-07-16-homebrew-website-club
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gRegor`
bret ^
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cweiske
phorkie 0.4 with single-click linkback(webmention)-based federated forking is out: http://cweiske.de/tagebuch/phorkie-0.4.0.htm
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kylewm
I really like how cweiske shows the previous post for each tag ... that is really clever
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@nobantu
Only a few more days of SuperEarlyBird ticket pricing 4 #IIW XIX (Oct 27-30) Register now! http://www.eventbrite.com/e/internet-identity-workshop-xix-19-2014b-tickets-11845172229 #identity #vrm #indieweb
(twtr.io/oYKqseTdNw)
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: re: prev post on cweiske.de link?
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kylewm
KartikPrabhu: on the link he just posted, the sidebar on the right has a list of tags, and below each tag is a link to the previous post for that tag
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KartikPrabhu
oh yeah... hmm neat
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kylewm
interesting mix of german and english too
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gRegor`
If you navigate back in those tags, there's links for "next" in those tags too
#
gRegor`
Pretty cool
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gRegor`
Though does end up with a bunch of arrows
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KartikPrabhu
hey kylewm: you should try to do fragmentioned reply-contexts e.g. https://kylewm.com/like/2014/07/14/1 :)
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kylewm
KartikPrabhu: oh, cool idea!
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KartikPrabhu
people! I want to play with exporting ebook notes (marginalia) and highlights to my site. Now notes can be in-reply-to a fragmention but what are highlights? like-of or bookmark or favourite ?
#
kylewm
bookmark very literally
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KartikPrabhu
interesting thanks kylewm. seems like the possible types of posts is getting larger
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cuibonobo
KartikPrabhu: i stumbled onto your webmention repo on github but saw your note that you’re no longer using it. did you go back to vrypan’s or switch to something else?
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KartikPrabhu
cuibonobo: I'm using https://github.com/bear/ronkyuu for sending and receiving webmentions :)
#
KartikPrabhu
I should note that since this is the second time my defection has come up :P
#
cuibonobo
hah. i hadn’t seen this repo before so i’m glad i asked :)
#
KartikPrabhu
cuibonobo: my code which wraps this stuff is on here: https://github.com/kartikprabhu/connection warning horrible orgamisation and documentation
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kylewm
oooh cuibonobo you are a Python person?
#
KartikPrabhu
wooohooo python
#
cuibonobo
*high five*
#
KartikPrabhu
*high five*
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kylewm
excited to grow our python contigent
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kylewm
contingent*
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cuibonobo
awesome! i feel like my entry on this page would end up being Flask + MongoDB.
#
cuibonobo
so it rounds out the selection, i think :)
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kylewm
lol seriously. we have collected exactly one of each
#
kylewm
actually rascul is writing a static generator in Python too
#
KartikPrabhu
bear's Hakkan is already a static+python
#
kylewm
thus "too"
#
KartikPrabhu
oh yeah...
#
KartikPrabhu
should figure out how to best put code stuff on github correctly
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kartikprabhu.com
edited /Python (-23) "/* Kartik Prabhu */ added Bundle"
(view diff)
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kartikprabhu.com
edited /Python (+13) "/* Projects */ added Bundle"
(view diff)
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kartikprabhu.com
edited /Bundle (+59) "/* Tools Used */ update with Django and MySQL"
(view diff)
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kartikprabhu.com
edited /Bundle (+264) "/* Working On */ marginalia done"
(view diff)
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Loqi
add Lift
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KartikPrabhu
ok stop now
#
KartikPrabhu
ok... is it the expectation that I make a diff UI for each sub note type? i get that Likes, Replies and Reposts are not that different from each other but then "Bookmark" and "Quotation" ?
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KartikPrabhu
and "Photo"
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rascul
yep i'm doing the static thing
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kylewm
KartikPrabhu: I think it's totally up to you, I have one editor template for each post-type, but some extend others
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KartikPrabhu
hmmm me no like
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KartikPrabhu
too complex
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KartikPrabhu
specially as there is not really a clean distinction to stuff I want to post
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kylewm
i agree, but it allows the individual editors to be simpler
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KartikPrabhu
like this is not technically a repost https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/take-stairs as defined by the wiki
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kylewm
honestly I think note/reply/repost is the least interesting distinction
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kylewm
think more along the lines of note/RSVP/bookmark/checkin
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KartikPrabhu
but my intention was to "reshare" it with friends with a quotation to provide context for why I want to share it with them
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KartikPrabhu
man! I'm so mixed up with this post-type stuff
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gRegor`
Probably best not to worry about it too much :)
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kylewm
that ^
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KartikPrabhu
gregor`: if we can't figure this out and simplify it how do we expect these things to get wider acceptance?
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KartikPrabhu
"Indieweb is so complicated. I'll stick to Medium" is an argument I can see being made
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KartikPrabhu
even without the technical aspects
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gRegor`
True...
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kylewm
<tantek voice> design for yourself, not the wider audience
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KartikPrabhu
yes... which I why I am giving examples from my own site :)
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kylewm
if notes tagged "photography" or "bookmark" scratch your itch, that's all that matters
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Loqi
KartikPrabhu meant to say: i see
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KartikPrabhu
well that correction was more typing than the original
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gRegor`
So far it doesn't seem any of our "deviations" from the wiki are causing interop problems
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KartikPrabhu
gregor`: I would claim otherwise
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KartikPrabhu
let me find example
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gRegor`
The difference in the parsed /photo markup from earlier today is worth considering, esp. with bridgy
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gRegor`
But I mean, by and large, there's not been problems with notes/photos/articles/etc
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KartikPrabhu
https://kylewm.com/share/2014/03/27/1 this is a repost but with added commentary by kylewm ... how am I supposed to show the added commentary on my site?
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gRegor`
looks
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@anomalily
How many #indieweb points are awarded for getting one's nonprofit boss to learn and correctly use the term "selfdogfooding" appropriately?
(twtr.io/oYVzQqPmcv)
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KartikPrabhu
according to wiki defns repost does not have added commentary so my facepile is good for that
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@anomalily
How many #indieweb points are awarded for getting one's nonprofit boss to learn and correctly use the term "selfdogfooding"?
(twtr.io/oYW1EUv2g4)
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gRegor`
Extract the p-name?
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KartikPrabhu
gregor`: I could do many things but they are all because kylewm does not follow "conventions"
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: for the record I support commentary on reposts
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kylewm
maybe the commentary wasn't meant for you!
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gRegor`
If no p-name, "straight repost", if p-name, "added commentary"
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gRegor`
I believe tumblr supports us on the commentary with reposts, btw.
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gRegor`
reblog allows adding comments.
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kylewm
ah yeah good point
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: my current thinking is commentary on reposts is for your friends and not for original author
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gRegor`
And they pretty much invented "reblog" didn't they?
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gRegor`
(that term, at least)
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gRegor`
additional commentary on tumblr reblogs is shown on the original, but truncated.
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KartikPrabhu
so I should have used a repost on https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/drm-browsers and adactio should not have shown my commentary here: http://adactio.com/journal/6748/#comment523
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gRegor`
"x reblogged this and added: . . . "
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kylewm
looks like I need to support commentary in my comments if i support them in my replies
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kylewm
unless it's truly a u-repost-of u-in-reply-to
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gregorlove.com
edited /repost (+0) "/* Tumblr */ typo"
(view diff)
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gregorlove.com
edited /repost (+12) "add tumblr to primary list"
(view diff)
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KartikPrabhu
ok I am becoming convinced of the followin POV. if it is a repost/like only, then the commentary is meant for followers of the reposter and not the author of the original post. But if it is repost and reply then the commentary is meant for the author of original post. Present the comment accordingly
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KartikPrabhu
what say you?
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gregorlove.com
edited /repost (+14) "nicer section link"
(view diff)
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gRegor`
It sounds good, but it's hard for me to tell really since I'm not even to the point of using reposts.
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: I have an "importance" order so reply > repost > like whichever matches the comment first that's the one picked up
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gRegor`
I think it sounds good as a "should", but I think it should be up to the original author what they do with the commentary, regardless.
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KartikPrabhu
gregor`: yes! I am saying that captures the "intention" of the reposter...
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gRegor`
I meant, repostee
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gRegor`
Original author
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KartikPrabhu
we are saying the same thing :P
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gRegor`
If you repost me and add a comment that's not in-reply-to, what if I still want to show it?
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gRegor`
Well I want to violently agree!
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KartikPrabhu
yeah you can! but if I intend for the comment to be for you i should add a in-reply-to just to be helpful :)
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gRegor`
Cool. Cool cool cool.
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KartikPrabhu
yeah goddarnit I agree with you
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KartikPrabhu
shakes fist
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KartikPrabhu
ooo new idea. if repost URL has fragmention then it is a quotation else it is a repost ... ?
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gRegor`
ooo new idea. Thai curry fried rice. back in a bit.
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KartikPrabhu
ok me out for dinner
KartikPrabhu joined the channel