#indiewebcamp 2014-07-18

2014-07-18 UTC
crossdiver joined the channel
#
mko Well, I got passport-indieauth fully working and up on NPM. I still put a disclaimer that it's not ready for general use yet, but anyone who wants to use it should be able to fairly easily. I can provide example code if you want to see how it works.
tantek joined the channel
#
mko https://www.npmjs.org/package/passport-indieauth
#
mko Welcome back tantek
#
tantek thanks mko!
#
tantek nice disclaimer on that package ;)
#
@npm_tweets passport-indieauth 0.0.1 https://www.npmjs.org/package/passport-indieauth IndieAuth authentication strategy for Passport. (twitter.com/_/status/489926471163871232)
#
tantek wow that was fast
#
tantek somehow escaped any !tells from the past few days :)
#
mko Definitely.
#
GWG Hi, tantek
#
tantek hello GWG!
#
mko I think everyone knew you weren't going to be around, so they definitely mentioned you in the logs, but probably figured it was safer to not inundate you with !tells.
#
tantek nice
#
tantek tries to come up with a strategy for reading/processing several days of logs.
#
rascul grep -R beer logs/
#
@npm_tweets passport-indieauth 0.0.2 https://www.npmjs.org/package/passport-indieauth IndieAuth authentication strategy for Passport. (twitter.com/_/status/489927728465190913)
#
mko Had the wrong git repo (forgot my GitHub username forwarding alias expired).
chrissaad joined the channel
#
tantek nice post tommorris! http://tommorris.org/posts/9040 and very succinct explanation of the problems with typical geek/dev methodologies.
#
tantek.com created /SHDH (+32) "r" (view diff)
#
tantek.com created /shdh (+32) "r" (view diff)
bnvk joined the channel
#
tantek.com created /SuperHappyDevHouse (+506) "stub with a short dfn, relevance to IWC" (view diff)
KevinMarks2 joined the channel
#
tantek recently I worked on design improvements for displaying my composite stream on my home page - deployed now - see if you notice any difference: http://tantek.com
#
tantek (also, article styling in particular has been updated a bunch, in a several small ways)
#
tantek what is pants?
bnvk joined the channel
#
tantek !tell hmans go ahead and create a page indiewebcamp.com/pants that describes the project - even with just a stub like you did in IRC: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-07-17#t1405627280
#
Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
tantek.com deleted /File:20140717-121348.jpg "Spam: spam uploaded by email even. heads-up aaronpk."
#
tantek !tell tommorris https://projectdouglas.org doesn't load for me. just spins and spins.
#
Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
@aaronpk Just realized I documented this trip entirely in pictures, no text posts the whole time! #indieweb (http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2014/07/17/7/indieweb) (twitter.com/_/status/489935553530302464)
emmak joined the channel
#
rascul this might be something interesting https://ind.ie
#
kylewm tantek: http://projectdouglas.org works, without the s
#
@kevinmarks @aaronpk did you see the debate about kinds of photo post in #indiewebcamp yesterday? (twitter.com/_/status/489936817139879936)
#
tantek kylewm: huh - I guess I don't get it.
#
tantek I heard rumblings about debates about photo posts recently.
#
rascul https doesn't seem to connect for me
#
tantek didn't know so many people had gotten photo posts working already!
#
rascul https://projectdouglas.org i mean, http:// seems to work fine
#
tantek yeah
#
rascul i guess i am confirming previous findings
#
kylewm I wasn't sure what it had to do with Diaspora
#
KartikPrabhu oh tantek found out about the photo-post debate :P
#
KartikPrabhu s/oh/oh noes
#
Loqi KartikPrabhu meant to say: oh noes tantek found out about the photo-post debate :P
#
rascul there was a debate?
#
tantek KartikPrabhu: haven't read it yet. I'm just assuming it means more people got photo posts working on their sites, and thus /photo#IndieWeb_Examples has more folks listed, right? ;)
#
KartikPrabhu yes... the debate was the age-old "photo with caption" vs "note with photos"
#
KartikPrabhu if and what is the diff
#
rascul is there a time/date i can reference in logs? i might be interested in said debate
#
tantek KartikPrabhu: who is posting in which way?
#
KartikPrabhu tantek: I don't think people know what to call their photo posts
#
KartikPrabhu rascul hunting
#
rascul i'm soon to figure out how to implement photo sutff, ideas can be helpful
#
rascul maybe said debate will give me ideas
#
kylewm is there any etiquette preventing me from adding someone else to /photo IndieWebExamples?
#
kylewm i.e. emmak
#
kylewm and bret
#
KartikPrabhu rascul: starts here... http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-07-15#t1405445144 beware it is long and winded for a summary see: http://indiewebcamp.com/photos#Discussion
#
tantek.com edited /export (+286) "/* Articles about data export */ add WIRED article about downloading social network archives" (view diff)
#
kylewm.com edited /photos (+263) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ += me" (view diff)
#
rascul thanks i will take a look
#
KartikPrabhu goes to do physics stuff. Have a few photos that I can post as "captions with photo" just to create a ruckus
#
tantek caught up with today's IRC archive.
#
tantek kylewm: please add all the indieweb community examples you find!
#
bret I post photos to my site, but it's terribly broken still
#
kylewm bret: points!
#
bret still working on a major fedactor on Gitpub
#
bret refactor. on my phone
#
tantek bret - example URL of one of your earliest photo post?
#
bret pre or post micropub?
#
tantek KartikPrabhu: real published examples are always a plus! as long as you're doing so because you think it's the right way to post
#
tantek bret - either!
#
tantek (earlier better, then perhaps note the first "new" one)
#
KartikPrabhu tantek: of course... the ruckus bit was a wink winky to the last debate
#
tantek KartikPrabhu: I'm going to wait to see the examples collected on the wiki before exploring the debate.
#
KartikPrabhu good idea
#
bret tantek: http://bret.io/2013/02/26/pictures-from-portland/ first photo only post
#
tantek neat!
#
bret first post w/ ownyourgram http://bret.io/2014/05/18/ownyourgram/
#
bret notice the increase in photo posting
#
bret after that
npdoty joined the channel
#
bret every time I go to blog I revert to fixing gitpub knowing it will eventually do the same thing for note posting
#
tantek bret what is the name of your posting software that does these photo posts?
#
tantek and are you POSSEing your photos anywhere e.g. Twitter or Flickr?
#
bret ownyourgram is Pessos from ig
#
bret no posse yet
#
bret coming soon
#
bret gitpub handles the posting stuff and micropub
#
@temporaryhuman in tradition of @davewiner & others, next social web #indieweb is already changing everything @aaronpk &co show how http://aaronparecki.com/ (twitter.com/_/status/489941048240906240)
#
tantek !tell snarfed does Bridgy support Flickr comments/favorites backfeeding yet? e.g. from https://www.flickr.com/photos/adactio/14604446101
#
Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
kylewm tantek: no Flickr yet
#
tantek kylewm - issue filed?
#
kylewm just realized you probbably know that and are subtly motivating snarfed :)
#
tantek honestly didn't know, figured he's just ask rather than hunt.
#
tantek s/he's/he'd
#
Loqi tantek meant to say: honestly didn't know, figured he'd just ask rather than hunt.
#
kylewm looks like no issue yet
#
tantek figures snarfed could suddenly implement a bunch of neat stuff without any warning and deploy it live.
#
kylewm there's one for app.net
#
bret I really hope yahoo doesn't ruin flickr
#
kylewm they've owned it for a really long time and not ruined it yet
#
tantek kylewm - given the above adactio example, with actual comments/faves on Flickr, I'd push for Flickr backfeeding to be higher priority than app.net
#
bret well they didn't do anything for most of that time, now it's moving again in disturbing ways (ie removing paid accounts)
#
kylewm totally agree
#
bret flickr > app.net
#
kylewm bret: good point, I had a pro account for a long time, was happy to pay for it
#
bret I let mine expire and the month the literally were like 'nope no more'
#
bret s/the l/they l
#
Loqi bret meant to say: I let mine expire and the month they literally were like 'nope no more'
#
tantek.com edited /photos (+689) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ add bret.io, also note adactio added POSSE to Flickr" (view diff)
#
tantek kylewm - what's the best way to file such an issue? or have you already and I should just +1 it?
#
tantek I'm figuring for adactio's sake at least.
#
bret Tantek do yo append or prepend new posts to your bim files?
#
kylewm tantek: filing right now
#
tantek thanks kylewm++ !
#
kylewm https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/225
#
kylewm tantek: yw!
#
tantek bret prepend inside the <ol class="hfeed">
#
kylewm adding a new silo to Bridgy is daunting, I must admit...
#
tantek.com edited /Falcon (+121) "/* Storage format */ clarify hentry elements most recently published first inside first hfeed element" (view diff)
#
tantek bret more here: http://indiewebcamp.com/Falcon#Storage_format
#
tantek ok I think I'm caught up on a "today" in IRC / Recent Changes. Off to take a break with an errand - will be back in an hour or so. thanks bret, kylewm, KartikPrabhu, rascul - chat you soon!
mdik, wolftune, jgee and snarfed joined the channel
#
Loqi snarfed: tantek left you a message 52 minutes ago: does Bridgy support Flickr comments/favorites backfeeding yet? e.g. from https://www.flickr.com/photos/adactio/14604446101
paulcp, fmarier, squeakytoy2, scor and npdoty joined the channel
#
snarfed (for the logs
#
snarfed https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/225)
#
GWG Hi, snarfed. What's up?
#
snarfed hi GWG! not much
#
GWG I have a table full of hardware to upgrade.
#
GWG So, lots of excitement here
KevinMarks2 and salanto joined the channel
#
salanto @aaronpk http://note.io/1qjrwsf
#
mko salanto: pdxbrain.com doesn't seem to have anything on it.
#
salanto home.tylergilles.club
#
mko Again, doesn't seem to be anything.
#
salanto do you have ipv6?
#
salanto its an AAAA record
#
mko Ah. Yeah. Comcast doesn't have IPv6 here.
#
salanto ipv6 is awesome
#
mko But either way, pdxbrain.com doesn't have anything on it.
#
salanto pdxbrain isn't owned by me anymore
#
salanto it expired
#
mko Then you shouldn't be using that as the domain on your GitHub profile.
#
salanto oh it needs to be bidirectional?
#
salanto derp
#
mko Yep
#
salanto ok thanls
#
mko No problemo
#
salanto thanks*
paulcp and gRegor` joined the channel
#
KartikPrabhu snarfed, kylewm: is POSSE post discovery not active on G+ ? see first one here: https://www.brid.gy/googleplus/117114060857732496623
#
snarfed KartikPrabhu: g+ is supported. looking
#
snarfed KartikPrabhu: was the syndication link maybe added after the poll?
#
KartikPrabhu unless the poll happened seconds after POSSEing, no
#
snarfed KartikPrabhu: check out the yellow banner on that page. it doesn't know your web site. did you maybe add it to your g+ profile after you signed up for bridgy?
#
snarfed try signing up again
#
KartikPrabhu snarfed: I have bridgy backfeeds from other ones on G+ so that can't be the issue me thinks
#
KartikPrabhu not changed G+ info either
#
snarfed backfeed doesn't depend on it
#
snarfed but posse post discovery does
#
snarfed try signing up again
#
KartikPrabhu ahh hmm ok
#
KartikPrabhu then I suppose it doesn't re-poll the one it already failed on
#
snarfed it actually does handle that now thanks to kylewm
#
KartikPrabhu weird just re-signed up and the error is now different because my homepage does not have a webmention link... but the error on the backfeed still stands
#
snarfed yup. looking at the log link, it didn't fetch your h-feed
#
snarfed looking
#
KartikPrabhu oh!
brianloveswords joined the channel
#
KartikPrabhu snarfed: that is strange as my notes link has a rel=feed on it
#
snarfed KartikPrabhu: it's not that. looking.
#
snarfed it'll trigger the next time it sees a new response
#
KartikPrabhu hmm ok cool will keep an eye out
#
snarfed it won't yet do the retroactive fetch for your g+ account because it's never (yet) seen a syndication link for g+, since it didn't know your web site. once it sees one, it'll start rechecking every 2h
#
KartikPrabhu I see. well thanks :)
#
kylewm so you have to post a note, syndicate to g+ and get a comment before it'll re-try this old one :P
#
kylewm (sorry just catching up)
#
snarfed kylewm: np!
#
snarfed KartikPrabhu: thanks for checking, glad that it now has your web site
#
KartikPrabhu oh kylewm thanks for that alert! I'll keep tracking this... :)
#
KartikPrabhu snarfed: sure thing. I have enough friends on G+ who do comment on my "non-indieweb" stuff (which is mostyl on Twitter) that I can consistently keep an eye out
npdoty joined the channel
#
snarfed KartikPrabhu: looks like it fetched your h-feed. didn't find a syndication link for that one comment, but lots of details in the log: https://www.brid.gy/log?start_time=1405657604&key=aglzfmJyaWQtZ3lyKQsSDkdvb2dsZVBsdXNQYWdlIhUxMTcxMTQwNjA4NTc3MzI0OTY2MjMM
#
kylewm it found the syndication ink, but didn't repropagate that Response for some reason
dariusdunlap joined the channel
#
kylewm snarfed: does this log show everything for the whole task?
#
snarfed kylewm: should be, yes
#
kylewm something isn't right...
#
kylewm man that quite a loophole :(
#
kylewm because it had never done posse-post-discovery on K's site before, it found that relationship the first time through
#
kylewm and didn't try to repropagate old Responses
#
kylewm totally unrelated to the new refetch behavior
fmarier joined the channel
#
@gRegorLove @pitchdesign There's Homebrew Website Club every two weeks on Wed. evening: http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-07-30-homebrew-website-club @antiheroine @davehoover @marcymarcy (twitter.com/_/status/489999468985843712)
#
salanto Can you send to google+ from wordpress indiweb plugin?
#
salanto indie
#
gRegor` Maybe we can snag some more people, KartikPrabhu ^
#
gRegor` Well that was easy. :) https://twitter.com/pitchdesign/status/490000060386926593
#
@pitchdesign @gregorlove oh this is excellent news!! thanks so much for inviting me! I will definitely come to as many as I can. (twitter.com/_/status/490000060386926593)
#
KartikPrabhu gregor`++ if that works. on new people invitation!
#
kylewm salanto: some background here http://indiewebcamp.com/Google+#POSSE
#
gRegor` conditional-karma
#
KartikPrabhu snarfed kylewm: looking at the logs but seems like some strange stuff in the PPD algo
#
salanto kylewm: thanks
#
gRegor` I think having meetings at Polymathic will help a lot - more word of mouth to Chicago tech people
#
KartikPrabhu salanto: to summarise: G+ is pretty "stuck up" on posting
#
salanto how did ryan do this? https://plus.google.com/+RyanBarrett/posts/eP15eV1ZZwa
#
KartikPrabhu salanto: manually I'm guessing. that's how I do it too
#
KartikPrabhu gregor`: I will leave the 'people organisation' to you since I am not into the 'web' circles
#
gRegor` isn't either, really, hah
#
KartikPrabhu more than me! :P
#
KartikPrabhu I know 1 person = gregor`
#
gRegor` Haha
#
gRegor` Really, no other friends with websites or an interest in getting one?
#
KartikPrabhu gregor`: I'm mostly stuck with civilians :P
#
kylewm KartikPrabhu: summary on the bridgy issue is... i didn't anticipate the case where you have previously failed responses when you first sign up
#
gRegor` Hehe
#
gRegor` Time to recruit.
#
KartikPrabhu kylewm: fair enough. sounds complicated anyway. thanks for looking/dealing with this
#
gRegor` "Uncle Tantek wants YOU!"
squeakytoy2 joined the channel
#
KartikPrabhu gregor`: I doubt my 'civilan' friends know tantek. (I didn't before this). Again doubt if they're even Gen2
cweiske joined the channel
#
kylewm KartikPrabhu: if you can construct the permalink page for that response, it'll have the correct in-reply-to now...but i didn't understand g+ ids
#
gRegor` If he were pointing, this would be a great photo for it: http://instagram.com/p/p94HTRA9Qf/
#
kylewm lol, I knew it was going to be that one gRegor`
#
KartikPrabhu judas fu@$%^ priest!
#
gRegor` Lulz
#
KartikPrabhu !tell tantek are you auditioning for the future Cap. indieweb movie? ref: http://instagram.com/p/p94HTRA9Qf/ ;)
#
Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
#
gRegor` Night, all
#
KartikPrabhu night gregor
#
KartikPrabhu kylewm: G+ is hard for comments as they don't have a permalink... I'll fiddle around
#
salanto woo webmentions are working. yay
#
Loqi does a happy dance!
#
KartikPrabhu salanto++ for webmentions working!
#
Loqi salanto has 1 karma
#
KartikPrabhu salanto: free internet points ;) also what's your URL?
#
salanto home.tylergillies.club
#
salanto its ipv6 only i don't have a ipv4 ip on that box
#
KartikPrabhu oh man... my whatever doesn't seem to do ipv6 :(
#
fr0zen hey guys, which IRC client you use? Someone already made one?
#
salanto i use adium
#
KartikPrabhu fr0zon: I'm on my Pidgin using setup from here: http://www.zantherus.com/community/topic/2635-howto-connect-to-irc-with-pidgin/
#
KartikPrabhu frozen ^
#
fr0zen nice! I'm using xchat and used pidgin for a long time
#
KartikPrabhu salanto: how does one go about having ipv6 and not ipv4 ?
#
salanto kartik ipv6 tunnel for a device behind NAT
#
KartikPrabhu fr0zen: I like pidgin as it works with all the things I want on my chat like google, irc and FB (though now I have FB off)
#
fr0zen I was having some thoughts about IRC and how would be nice to manage my stuff through here. Like a personal server, where I would join the channel #finance, #facebook, #messenger, and this channels would have a bot to interact.
#
KartikPrabhu salanto: so it is some special setting on your server?
#
fr0zen #email, etc...
#
KartikPrabhu fr0zen: I don't think I understand
#
fr0zen KartikPrabhu, sorry, I'll try to explain better
#
KartikPrabhu fr0zen: ideally you'd manage your internetz through your domain.
#
KartikPrabhu we're not there yet I suppose
#
fr0zen Yes! I'm thinking in how would be a good way for me to consume my generated content
#
salanto KartikPrabhu: my server routes ipv4 outgoing traffic to an ipv4 server on the public internet and that routes ipv6, incoming is the same deal
#
salanto except reverse
#
KartikPrabhu fr0zen: aah I see. you want all internet activity at one place. maybe IRC. I'd say your domain is a better place for that
#
fr0zen KartikPrabhu, and a IRC server running only for me, with bots to interact with each service that I use could be a good solution, I think
#
kylewm fr0zen: that sounds like bitlbee?
#
fr0zen kylewm, nice! In half!
#
KartikPrabhu salanto: is there an advantage to re-route ipv4 traffic?
#
KartikPrabhu I mean why filter it at all (at this time maybe future is ok)
#
salanto KartikPrabhu: it's routing ipv6 packets inside ipv4 packets
#
salanto so its actually ipv6 traffic
#
fr0zen kylewm, you know hipChat, from Atlassian? Is a webchat similar to IRC that connects with APIs like Basecamp, Gmail, Github
#
KartikPrabhu salanto: oh! so it blocks my ipv4 requests?
#
KartikPrabhu really doesnot understand how this works salanto :P
#
kylewm fr0zen: only that someone mentioned it as an example of an interface that people really love
#
salanto its not blocking anything that server only has an ipv6 ip in the dns
#
salanto your computer looks at the dns and goes, nope, can't route here
#
jgee fr0zen: Would these bots tell you the activity on the sites, or would you instruct them to post?
#
fr0zen kylewm, yeah! It's really nice! I think I'll work in a indie version of it
#
fr0zen jgee, both! like !messages list:unread
#
KartikPrabhu salanto: gotcha! is it hard to make it work with ipv4? if not I would do that as I suspect most traffic is ipv4, specially if Comcast doesn't support it
#
salanto KartikPrabhu: i don't have a public ipv4 for that box it's behind a router
#
jgee fr0zen: Sounds cool, although your site should be the main place for your stuff, like KartikPrabhu said
#
salanto it's things like this that make ipv6 so much better
#
fr0zen jgee, yeah, will be the front door
#
fr0zen to the data managed in the IRC server
#
salanto anyone preorder a gotenna yet?
#
fr0zen like the backend
#
KartikPrabhu salanto: I see. while I agree that moving to ipv6 would be for the better, it would be good to accomodate today's readers like me :)
#
salanto KartikPrabhu: i can only do what i can do
#
salanto my phone is on a public ipv6 address too
#
salanto tmobile has native ipv6
#
fr0zen kylewm, bitlbee is really great! thanks a lot :D
#
KartikPrabhu salanto: yes. didn't mean to pressure you in any way :)
#
KartikPrabhu fr0zen: it would seem best to have and own all the data you need on your website and then push it to other "clients" like IRC bots or something
#
KartikPrabhu thinks having 2 conversations on IRC is harder than on IRLS
#
fr0zen :P
npdoty joined the channel
#
kylewm fr0zen: sure! i have heard that bitlbee running on a bouncer like ZNC is really great but haven't tried it m'self
#
KartikPrabhu fr0zen: if I have not said so before, it is very very good to have folks from Brazil and now India (with mayuresh) getting interested in the indieweb
#
fr0zen I want to do this because I want to spend more time using IRC clients without feel like something that drains my productive :P
chrissaad joined the channel
#
KartikPrabhu quite some talented folks in those places that could help a lot here
#
fr0zen KartikPrabhu, yeah, I'm happy that I could find the channel. I ask apologize for some further misunderstandings that my not much eloquent english may create
#
KartikPrabhu fr0zen: yes... good idea. i have been thinking about having a notifications page on my site. Maybe I could write some code to give me 'desktop notifications'
#
KartikPrabhu fr0zen: not to worry about the English. I had a a hard time with people at cafes understanding my English when I moved to the US. actually kylewm thinks I have a British accent :P
#
kylewm lol, only your spelling has a british accent
#
KartikPrabhu kylewm: that is true. because of my British english learnings in India
#
KartikPrabhu in fact i spent the afternoon fixing American vs British spellings in my physics paper!
#
kylewm :D
tantek joined the channel
#
Loqi tantek: KartikPrabhu left you a message 22 minutes ago: are you auditioning for the future Cap. indieweb movie? ref: http://instagram.com/p/p94HTRA9Qf/ ;)
#
KartikPrabhu fr0zen: maybe get your friends who can code (or are otherwise interested in owning their own web content) and have a meeting - Homebrew Website Club in Brazil!
#
KartikPrabhu is still LOLing at that ^^
#
salanto 99% of the time american spelling is just a dirty bastardisation of british spelling by illiterate americans that happened to catch of because memetics
#
salanto catch on*
#
KartikPrabhu salanto: very gald you you used the correct form of 'bastardisation'... ;) #irony
#
salanto like skeptical. someone like s-sk-skeptical. must be with a k because it sounds like k
#
kylewm we change esses to zees because they are cooler and more futuristic
#
salanto that is actually a halfway awesome argument
#
snarfed salanto: you're tyler gillies, right?
#
salanto snarfed: ive been called worse
#
snarfed re your g+ posse question, KartikPrabhu (or whoever) was right, i do it manually
#
fr0zen KartikPrabhu, yeah will do it! I'm trying to create a hackerspace here in my town.
#
salanto snarfed: awesome thanks
#
salanto hey i got ipv4 working
#
fr0zen KartikPrabhu, indieweb website helps a lot to spread the world of freedom here!
#
salanto KartikPrabhu: can you get to home.tylergillies.com now?
#
fr0zen because the idea is much more well structured than what I was trying to explain
#
fr0zen s/world/word
#
salanto fr0zen: i was just telling someone tonight that indie web is essentially a freedom movement, people don't realise they are prisoners
#
KartikPrabhu fr0zein: yes the website is pretty useful. Would be great to have feedback about how beginners perceive it
#
fr0zen salanto, they think that is no problem if google knows everything about them, because they aren't doing nothing illegal
#
KartikPrabhu fr0zen, salanto: If I may be so indulgent: https://kartikprabhu.com/article/indieweb-love-blog here is my attempt at explaining indieweb
#
salanto derp
#
fr0zen this is so stupid, but I used to think that way too
#
salanto home.tylergillies.club not .com
#
salanto .club was on sale for 3 bucks
#
salanto i'm cheap
#
fr0zen KartikPrabhu, nice, I'll read and also forward to a friend that don't know much :D
#
salanto KartikPrabhu: what blog platform is that? looks perty
#
KartikPrabhu salanto: your home URL gives error at the moment
#
KartikPrabhu salanto: it is not a platform. compeletly custom CSS
#
salanto KartikPrabhu: nice
#
cweiske Warning: mysql_connect(): Host 'c-50-137-147-179.hsd1.or.comcast.net' is not allowed to connect to this MySQL server in /Library/WebServer/Documents/wp-includes/wp-db.php on line 1372
#
KartikPrabhu a major reason I got my own domain was to move away from the design resctrictions of platforms
#
KartikPrabhu so I cam here from a Gen2 perspective
#
KartikPrabhu s/cam/came
#
Loqi KartikPrabhu meant to say: so I came here from a Gen2 perspective
#
salanto oh because my mysql is also on ipv6
#
salanto crap
#
KartikPrabhu salanto: same error as cweiske
#
Loqi hehe
#
KartikPrabhu not funny Loqi
#
Loqi yeah!
#
salanto KartikPrabhu: the plain language is very approachable by laypeople
#
KartikPrabhu salanto: thanks. that was the intention. glad it works :)
#
KartikPrabhu fr0zen salanto: here is a list of articles about the Indieweb on the wiki if you wnat to read more perspectives: http://indiewebcamp.com/posts_about_the_indieweb
#
fr0zen salanto, your nick has my name :P
#
fr0zen alan
#
salanto KartikPrabhu: ok think i fixed DB error
#
salanto fr0zen: eh>
#
salanto ?
#
KartikPrabhu salanto: neat works now!
#
salanto woohoo
#
KartikPrabhu salanto++ for making ipv4 work
#
salanto ironic as that is
#
salanto usually the other way around
#
KartikPrabhu salanto: how do I check if my website works over ipv6?
#
KartikPrabhu salanto: also you should add your experience to this page on the wiki so others (like me) will learn more: http://indiewebcamp.com/IPv6
#
salanto KartikPrabhu: from command like type dig any example.com
#
KartikPrabhu I see. will attempt
#
salanto if it has a AAAA line it will route from ipv6
#
salanto example.com being your website
#
KartikPrabhu hmm seems to have worked. got a response :)
snarfed joined the channel
#
KartikPrabhu fr0zen: did you manage to get a domain?
#
home.tylergillies.club created /Talk:IPv6 (+307) "Created page with "I would actually argue that the primary advantage of ipv6 in this space isn't the amount of available addresses (that is important). I would argue that the most primary advantage..."" (view diff)
#
fr0zen KartikPrabhu, not yet, but I think next week I'll be able to issue a new credit card - and have credit, LOL.
#
tantek salanto - we don't bother using Talk: pages
#
tantek and instead just documented opinions right there on the pages themselves
#
tantek s/documented/document
#
Loqi tantek meant to say: and instead just document opinions right there on the pages themselves
#
KartikPrabhu fr0zen: ah I see. would like to see your setup. I'm very interested in how different people design their sites :)
#
salanto tantek: got it. thanks. im used to the fascism that is wikipedia
#
KartikPrabhu salanto: yeha what tantek saud :)
#
tantek salanto - no problem, I hear you
#
tantek we're also not as deletionist as Wikipedia - as long as a subject has demonstrable relevance to the indieweb, it's worth having a page on it
#
KartikPrabhu salanto: sometimes people sign their names/URls if it is a not very consensus based opinion
#
home.tylergillies.club edited /IPv6 (+310) "/* Why? */" (view diff)
#
salanto Ok
#
fr0zen KartikPrabhu, nice, I'll start think about it :)
#
home.tylergillies.club edited /IPv6 (+26) "/* Why? */" (view diff)
#
KartikPrabhu fr0zen: all the best. curious to see what you setup :)
#
fr0zen :)
#
fr0zen I'm going. Thanks for the good time.
#
KartikPrabhu people seen this: https://twitter.com/rupertmurdoch/status/489976758507405312 LOL
#
@rupertmurdoch Sorry can't buy Trib group or LA Times - cross-ownership laws from another age still in place. (twitter.com/_/status/489976758507405312)
#
fr0zen good night
#
Loqi buenas noches
#
KartikPrabhu does Loqi not speak Portuguese?
#
home.tylergillies.club edited /IPv6 (+328) "/* How */" (view diff)
#
mko salanto: The only thing I'll say about IPv6 is that anyone who is hosting a site should probably continue providing IPv4 access, even if they provide preference for IPv6, as the majority of users are not given IPv6 access from their ISPs, and the average user is not technically savvy enough to use an IPv6 tunnel (or are untrusting of most tunnel providers).
#
salanto mko: it's highly possible to be in a situation in which ipv6 is the *only* way you can provide access to your service because of NAT routing issues
#
KartikPrabhu mko: I think we already convinced salanto to add ipv4 support (which he successfully did!) but that is a concern that should be added to /ipv6
#
salanto otherwise every computer would be indie web and it would just be called the web
#
KartikPrabhu salanto: I think the indieweb should just be called the web already
#
salanto it will once ipv6 makes it possible to route without the headache of NAT
#
mko salanto: The situations wherein you can only provide IPv6 access are a vast minority unless you're self-hosting. Almost no hosting providers and server providers are IPv6-only.
#
salanto i think we are at 20% global native adoption and that is growing exponentially year over year
#
KartikPrabhu looks up NAT because he doesn't know what that is!
#
KartikPrabhu oops my n00bity is showing
#
KartikPrabhu googles and learns
#
mko KartikPrabhu++
#
salanto mko: both my home isp and my phone carrier have native isp i would strongly argue that assertion
#
Loqi KartikPrabhu has 50 karma
#
salanto s/native isp/native ipv6/
#
Loqi salanto meant to say: mko: both my home isp and my phone carrier have native ipv6 i would strongly argue that assertion
#
KartikPrabhu salanto: one example does not constitute a majority
#
salanto only really that box didn't have ipv6 was because of router hardware
#
salanto i have comcast
#
salanto and tmobile
#
salanto i hear they have lots of customers
#
KartikPrabhu oh! hmm me too weird
#
salanto but might just be me
#
mko I have Comcast as well, and they only offer it in 6 states natively.
#
salanto 6 states? meh thats unfortunate
#
salanto move? ;)
#
mko My bad. Not 6. 10 as of this year.
#
mko 6 was the year before.
#
KartikPrabhu salanto: see... that is only counting the US. I doubt outside US and Europe if anyone has ipv6 support
#
KartikPrabhu which would exclude ?0.5 percent of the people on earth
#
KartikPrabhu s/?/>
#
Loqi KartikPrabhu meant to say: which would exclude >0.5 percent of the people on earth
#
mko KartikPrabhu: Actually, I think Europe has better IPv6 support because they are depleting more of their IPv4 addresses than we are.
#
cweiske haha. no
#
mko As of 2014, native IPv6 availability is only 4% worldwide.
#
KartikPrabhu mko: yes I was thinking population-wise. I hihgly doubt if China and India have ipv6
#
mko https://www.google.com/intl/en/ipv6/statistics.html
#
mko assuming Google users are a representative sample
#
KartikPrabhu mko: numbers. good.
jsilvestre joined the channel
#
mko And I was wrong. Only Belgium has higher deployment than the US.
#
mko Oh. And Germany. They squeaked past by 0.4%
#
mko In the US, it's less than 9%.
#
KartikPrabhu even restricting to the US 9% is a small number. considering your site is to be on the **World** Wide Web and all
#
salanto https://www.google.com/intl/en/ipv6/statistics.html#tab=per-country-ipv6-adoption
#
mko Indeed. Anyway, I am glad to see that you added IPv4 support, salanto. Improving access for everyone is important.
#
KartikPrabhu as tommorris said this morning: “This kind of attitude makes the perfect the enemy of the good.”
#
salanto doh lol same link
#
KartikPrabhu salanto: in any case. you're using Wordpress I see. Any plans to get notes/tweets and POSSE working?
#
salanto KartikPrabhu: working on that right now
#
KartikPrabhu salanto: sweet!
#
salanto just installed jetpack plugin
#
mko salanto++ for bringing the topic of IPv6 up and getting IPv4 working
#
Loqi salanto has 2 karma
#
KartikPrabhu fo sho
#
salanto hopefully in the next 5 years everyone is ipv6 it's been long enough
#
salanto the spec is like 15 years old for crying out loud
#
tantek.com edited /IPv6 (+7) "dfn" (view diff)
#
tantek what is IPv6
#
Loqi IPv6 is version 6 of the Internet Protocol http://indiewebcamp.com/IPv6
#
KartikPrabhu tantek: your unicode is showing
#
tantek KartikPrabhu: where?
#
KartikPrabhu in front of the what in "what is IPv6" above
#
KartikPrabhu #irrelevant
#
tantek I don't have any unicode there
#
KartikPrabhu weird.... bad Pidgin
#
KartikPrabhu in any case. tantek: any news/update from YaYY or YxYY ?
#
Loqi giggles
caseorganic joined the channel
#
tantek KartikPrabhu: there was a good indieweb discussion session 11am-?? (1.5-2hrs?) in the pool on Saturday
#
KartikPrabhu ha! indiepool!
#
KartikPrabhu very nice. new developments?
#
tantek KartikPrabhu: and there was a good indieweb hack session 12:00-14:30~ in the bar/lounge around various tables on Sunday
#
tantek Yes! Two things personally. 1. I got help from a senioer UX designer with the presentation of my composite stream and blog posts. Mostly deployed then, and finished today.
#
tantek check out the styling of the stream of posts on http://tantek.com/
#
tantek especially between them :)
#
tantek and 2. after being frustrated by not having local dev setup, and having failed in the past even with adactio's help, I complained to aaronpk, and he got it working for me, and is documenting setup instructions.
#
mko You added a separator! Congratulations! :-)
#
tantek so now I can use tantek(.)dev locally instead of having to test/deploy everything live
#
mko Looks very good, tantek
#
tantek mko - yes that's the biggest obvious change, some spacing tweaks too
#
mko Yeah. You have much better vertical rhythm now.
#
tantek overall, making the stream more readable/skimmable, especially on mobile
#
tantek mko - cool - that was exactly the goal
#
salanto meh jetpack posts to circles not to public stream
#
KartikPrabhu tantek: yes! I observed some spacing changes. nice! I am a big fan of white space as is amply evident from my site :P
#
tantek KartikPrabhu: I am a big fan of just enough whitespace. I am a fan of information density per Tufte.
#
mko Tufte++
#
Loqi Tufte has 1 karma
#
tantek too much whitespace and stuff just feels disconnected / sloppy
#
KartikPrabhu heh! stop subtly complaining about my site ;)
#
tantek KartikPrabhu: not a personal/specific reference!
#
KartikPrabhu of course jk! :P
#
tantek KartikPrabhu: also my article styling has been tweaked a bunch, the typography / spacing
#
KartikPrabhu tantek: so you just used to code on your live site?
#
tantek KartikPrabhu: yeah - everything pretty much iterated live
#
mko The article styling is much better.
#
KartikPrabhu that is beyond cowboy-coding... outlaw-coding?
#
tantek articles, yes, e.g. http://tantek.com/2014/179/b1/indiewebcamp-thoughts-before-gathering
#
tantek thank mko!
#
tantek glad it's noticeable. had to save a before/after screenshot myself to really see the magnitude of the changes.
#
KartikPrabhu tantek: yes! much better line-spacing now
#
mko I still wish there was a little extra whitespace on the bottom of the page so the URL input elements wouldn't be so close to the chrome of the browser.
#
tantek KartikPrabhu: I still try to make incremental improvements/fixes/changes to my site and essentially practice continuous deployment
#
mko Otherwise, I have no complaints about your site
#
tantek mko - agreed about the footer area - still needs work
#
mko I have a zillion complaints with mine. heh
#
mko My task list just keeps getting bigger
#
tantek I'm not entirely happy with the block of form elements and that UI in general.
#
tantek mko - heh - same here - I just keep mine public in case it helps others: http://indiewebcamp.com/Falcon#Working_On
#
KartikPrabhu tantek: curious as to why you felt the need to have the permalink in a form element at the bottom ?
#
mko Yeah. Once I get v1 out, I'll be doing the same thing.
#
mko KartikPrabhu: That's by far the most usable mechanism for sharing and selecting a URL for posting on various social sites
#
KartikPrabhu mko: more than the browser address bar?
#
tantek KartikPrabhu: because people often want to link to something after finishing reading it, and the permalink for copy/pasting is an alternative to having a zillion NASCAR share buttons.
#
tantek right, what mko said. ok clearly, I'm too slow to continue tonight so I'll sign off - as I should anyway - sleepy :)
#
mko KartikPrabhu: Absolutely. The browser address bar doesn't reflect Short URLs, for example, which would be more valuable to share on social networks.
#
mko G'night tantek
#
KartikPrabhu tantek: gnight!
#
KartikPrabhu mko: short URLs I agree. but iirc tantek only has the full URL in the form field
#
tantek mko, KartikPrabhu re: the URL text fields, it's part of this line of thinking: http://indiewebcamp.com/citation#User_Interface
#
mko https://mowens.com/articles/design-prototyping-101
#
tantek KartikPrabhu: it makes sense to provide just the URL as a complement to the full citation embedding markup
#
mko Oh. I used to have that at the bottom of my site.
#
mko Not sure when I removed it.
#
mko Oops.
#
KartikPrabhu mko: I have it too... just asking for others motivations :)
#
KartikPrabhu tantek: yes. I actually like the full citation markup
#
KartikPrabhu tantek: go to bed young man!
#
tantek mko, really enjoying https://mowens.com/articles/design-prototyping-101 - will have to have a more thorough read of it tomorrow.
#
mko That's such an old article. Jan 2013. :)
#
mko It was part of the primer for when I was teaching design prototyping at PariSoma
#
mko But thank you for the kind words
#
KartikPrabhu put it in the "to read" tab group also :)
#
tantek needs to take screenshots of his new composite stream styling and upload them to http://indiewebcamp.com/composite_stream
#
tantek but that's for tomorrow
squeakytoy and pfefferle joined the channel
#
Loqi pfefferle: cweiske left you a message 9 hours, 58 minutes ago: net_webfinger and dependencies are on packagist now and installable via composer (no dev-master needed anymore)
#
pfefferle good morning
#
cweiske hiho
#
pfefferle cweiske nice! will test it later today!
KevinMarks2 and wolftune joined the channel
#
@nodenpm indie (0.0.1): https://www.npmjs.org/package/indie Node.js Framwork for constructing IndieWeb-compatible apps and websites (twitter.com/_/status/490036586869166080)
#
mko Note: Indie.js is what I settled on for the naming convention of my framework. The NPM publish was just to secure the namespace "indie"
#
@npm_tweets indie 0.0.1 https://www.npmjs.org/package/indie Node.js Framwork for constructing IndieWeb-compatible apps and websites (twitter.com/_/status/490037235216310272)
theglitchmob joined the channel
#
KartikPrabhu mko: is there some namespace thingy going on with NPM>
#
mko What do you mean?
#
mko I just wanted to go ahead and publish "indie" so the module's usage pattern would be "require('indie');"
#
KartikPrabhu mko: oh ok. I thought there was some namspace battle in NPM.
#
mko Not that I know of.
#
mko I just like brandable things, and I had finally decided what I was going to name my framework. Simple, straightforward, and easy to remember: http://indiejs.com
#
mko Decided to take a break from working on the framework itself to get a little bit admin done around the framework's existence.
BjornW joined the channel
#
salanto aaronpk: Fatal error: Call to undefined function db\init() in /web/sites/aaronparecki.com/p3k/php/includes/inc.php on line 15
sankha93 joined the channel
#
mko Hitting the hay as well. G'night all
#
salanto Night
#
salanto Im close behind you
Sebastien-L, petermolnar, squeakytoy2, krendil and glennjones joined the channel
#
Loqi glennjones: kylewm left you a message on 7/17 at 12:08pm: thank you for pointing me to store.transmat.io
KevinMarks2 joined the channel
#
acegiak anyone know why when I use the 1.1 twitter api my hashtags don't hashtag?
#
acegiak like, they don't become links?
theglitchmob, squeakytoy2, Garbee, barnabywalters, glennjones and adactio joined the channel
#
@simongriffee Sandstorm - personal cloud platform https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/sandstorm-io-personal-cloud-platform #ownyourdata, (twitter.com/_/status/490094057935618048)
squeakytoy2, scor, Sebastien-L, pfefferle, cweiske and theglitchmob joined the channel
#
@JockelLohkamp Why the Indie Web... @indiewebcamp http://dangillmor.com/2014/04/25/indie-web-important/ #IoTPeople @OuiShare @OuiShareLabs #P2P @Gatesense_IoT @agoracollective #okfest14 (twitter.com/_/status/490124531022200832)
EchoLynx, bnvk, theglitchmob and chrissaad joined the channel
#
ben_thatmustbeme finally getting close to having free time again and being able to work on my side projects again
theglitchmob, gRegor`, brianloveswords, KevinMarks2, brianlov_ and wolftune joined the channel
#
kylewm.com edited /User:Kylewm.com (-47) "/* personal site */ add PESOS button" (view diff)
tvfdd and pfefferle_ joined the channel
#
@henryfaber Indieweb pop homebrew friends club. (twitter.com/_/status/490154357841620992)
#
GWG Oh, barnabywalters is back. Nice to see people after a hiatus.
#
barnabywalters greetings GWG!
pfefferle_ joined the channel
#
GWG barnabywalters: Been to Germany?
#
GWG I haven't mastered the art of reading other indieweb sites.
#
GWG I could always go back to RSS
#
GWG thought reading indie sites was webcamp worthy
#
GWG pfefferle: Installed your plugin, but can't think of anything to say
#
pfefferle GWG :)
#
GWG pfefferle: Isn't that always the problem?
#
GWG At least I think I finally got the markup right on my testing site. Getting closer to deployment of the new theme and its child that looks like the old one
#
pfefferle GWG that is the problem why my last entry is from february ;)
#
GWG pfefferle: Ironic, considering we are in a place for people who want to develop ways to post their own content
#
pfefferle yes :)
#
pfefferle to much time to build the tools, that we can’t really use them :D
#
GWG pfefferle: It's an interesting comment, isn't it?
#
pfefferle GWG ???
#
GWG That the goal is to create content, but we are too often creating tools to create the content, not content.
#
barnabywalters GWG: not necesarily — many indieweb people post content very regularly
#
barnabywalters and I can’t think of anyone who only builds tools and never creates any content
#
GWG barnabywalters: Nothing is absolute
#
barnabywalters GWG: ha ha, nothing is absolute except that “nothing is absolute”, and therefore at least one thing is absolute :)
#
barnabywalters just like “everything changes”
#
GWG barnabywalters: Things are in a constant state of change
gRegor` and paulcp joined the channel
#
jonnybarnes gRegor`: yup, I've set up utf8mb4 so all works for me, why thet didn't just update utf8 though? (I imagine backwards-compatibility reasons)
kylewm joined the channel
#
gRegor` They should rename it to utf8ish
androtest, androte52, snarfed, jsilvestre and cweiske joined the channel
#
@zigdon Successfully switched from MyOpenId to https://indieauth.com/ for my ID. Wasn't that hard, even. (twitter.com/_/status/490175538892242945)
#
@zigdon Amused that https://indieauth.com/documentation is a 404 though. (twitter.com/_/status/490175577047826433)
brianloveswords joined the channel
#
gRegor` I can't even find a link to indieauth.com/documentation on the site? ^
#
mko Some people consider /documentation to be a "required" url for development projects. They're wrong.
#
kylewm never heard of such a thing
#
mko One of the developers a few jobs back was adamant we included /documentation on our API site. Said it was "common convention."
petermolnar1 and emmak joined the channel
#
gRegor` "required" URLs seems pretty silly.
#
kylewm Sometimes I have to remind myself that even though Loqi pulls tweets in here, they weren't necessarily directed at us :)
#
gRegor` rel=documentation might be a better convention. Let people do what they want with their own URLs. :)
#
mko Shhhhh, kylewm
#
gRegor` All tweets are about me.
#
gRegor` Funny, though, the link apparently used to be /#documentation. I fixed it on the wiki recently. http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=IndieAuth&diff=prev&oldid=11042
#
mko Maybe he found a link from outside our ecosystem that got to /documentation instead of /#documentation then?
paulcp and wolftune joined the channel
#
gRegor` Yeah, I thought about replying, but if it's outside the wiki /indieauth.com, probably not worth chasing down broken incoming links.
#
snarfed https://www.google.com/search?q=link%3Aindieauth.com%2Fdocumentation
#
snarfed finds nothing
#
kylewm so why do shortcuts on my phone (Samsung S3) look the worst out of all the examples on /icon e.g. https://www.dropbox.com/s/u1ggmljkc1ox33m/2014-07-18%2016.40.24.png
#
gRegor` I dunno, that "g" looks pretty good :)
#
gRegor` Know why some have the orange flag behind it?
#
mko Those probably don't have <meta name="mobile-web-app-capable" content="yes"> on them
#
mko Nope. That's not it. Tantek has that for sure.
#
kylewm and my site doesn't have that
#
snarfed i've seen this before. it's related to irc karma
#
kylewm strange irony if Android depends on apple-shortcut-icon
#
snarfed if you're within a narrow band, i think 30-50, you get the big picture. otherwise you get the flag.
#
gRegor` My site doesn't have that either.
#
kylewm apple-touch-icon*
#
gRegor` Hahaha, snarfed
#
kylewm lol snarfed
#
Loqi hehe
#
gRegor` I definitely shouldn't have a big icon, then.
#
snarfed see loqi knows
#
Loqi dude
#
kylewm adactio definitely looks the best out of all of them
arlen joined the channel
#
gRegor` I've only seen him in videos, but he looks so different to me in that icon
dariusdunlap and tantek joined the channel
#
tantek good morning #indiewebcamp!
#
snarfed morning tantek!
#
tantek catches up on logs from this morning.
#
tantek mko++ for indiejs.com!
#
Loqi mko has 4 karma
#
tantek and welcome back barnabywalters!
#
tantek mko re: anyone's claim of "common convention" - easy response: citation needed.
#
tantek !tell gRegor` we don't need rel=documentation, we have rel=help already (for many years from the HTML spec) and that's good enough to point to documentation or any other help about the current page.
#
Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
sparverius joined the channel
#
gRegor` Cool, didn't know that
#
Loqi gRegor`: tantek left you a message 27 seconds ago: we don't need rel=documentation, we have rel=help already (for many years from the HTML spec) and that's good enough to point to documentation or any other help about the current page.
#
gRegor` Also, welcome back, tantek.
#
snarfed tantek: looking forward to your thoughts on http://indiewebcamp.com/h-card#Issues
#
tantek kylewm - fascinating screenshot! could you upload that to the wiki so we can reference on http://indiewebcamp.com/icon#Android_browser_comparisons
#
bret !tell aaronpk I have been reading your site and caseorganic's site for the last few months in a feed reader comparing your atom feed to the hfeed that Barnaby built
#
Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
tantek thanks gRegor` snarfed!
#
bret !tell aaronpk the h feed is consistently more interesting and useful as it contains the actual photos of the post and gives a better feed with better summaries
#
Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
bret so barnabywalters++ on that
#
tantek !tell kylewm which browser did you use to "Add to Home Screen" ? Android default? Chrome? Firefox? And what version? And what version of Android OS? re: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-07-18#t1405704123
#
Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
kylewm tantek: adding the screenshot, I was just going to ask about that
#
Loqi kylewm: tantek left you a message 50 seconds ago: which browser did you use to "Add to Home Screen" ? Android default? Chrome? Firefox? And what version? And what version of Android OS? re: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-07-18#t1405704123
#
kylewm the default browser on Android is Chrome right? /dumbquestion
#
mko No--it's "Browser"
#
Loqi No has -1 karma
#
tantek kylewm: depends!
#
kylewm it's just called "Internet" on mine...
#
snarfed tantek is right
#
snarfed kylewm: that's probably not chrome then
#
tantek kylewm: we just call that "default android browser"
#
gRegor` Chrome is the default at least as of Android 4.x (not sure which version specifically)
#
gRegor` I will run some bookmark tests + screenshots with 4.4.4 later
#
snarfed gRegor`: with google play services yes, afaik, but not without
#
kylewm.com uploaded /File:kylewm-android-icons.png "show bad icon support on S3/default browser"
#
snarfed e.g. i don't think bare AOSP ships w/chrome
#
gRegor` I'm also on Nexus 4, so stock Android. Maybe the other carriers do something different (probably)
#
kylewm.com edited /icon (+183) "/* Android browser comparisons */ added my screenshot" (view diff)
androtest, tilgovi and androte22 joined the channel
#
kylewm.com edited /icon (+11) "/* Android browser comparisons */ oh god, image was too big!" (view diff)
paulcp joined the channel
#
gRegor` Hmm. I don't have "Browser" under "All Apps" in settings, snarfed.
#
tantek.com moved /File:kylewm-android-icons.png to /File:kylewm-android-icons-2014-07-18.png "screenshots are extremely date sensitive so let's be sure to capture that in the name"
#
snarfed gRegor`: sure. n4 has google play services and ships with most google apps. there are a handful of "levels" of "android," and yours is near the top, minus manufacturer/carrier bloatware
#
snarfed as another example, kindle fire and fire phone are android, but don't ship with either AOSP browser or chrome
#
tantek yay more browsers! :)
#
Loqi :D
#
tantek pats Loqi on the head.
#
Loqi who, me?
#
snarfed yeah. plenty of places to debate fragmentation. i should back away slowly :P
#
tantek.com edited /icon (+11) "update img embed" (view diff)
#
gRegor` Interesting. I thought for sure Google would make Chrome part of the core apps that other Android variants couldn't uninstall.
#
tantek snarfed, I'd rather debate fragmentions ;)
#
tantek gRegor`: especially since Google has hired so many Microsoft folks. ;)
#
snarfed gRegor`: kind of the opposite. unbundling lets them control distribution, update schedule, etc better, and use apps/services as a carrot w/manufacturers and carriers
#
mko snarfed: I forgot about Kindle Fire. Silk. What a ridiculously bad browser. :-\
#
snarfed there's no way for them to force apps or services, since android is open source, so it's more a carrot/stick model
#
gRegor` I think on a previous version (N1) I couldn't uninstall Facebook entirely, for example.
wolftune joined the channel
#
tantek.com edited /icon (+25) "/* Android browser comparisons */ clarify using the default Android browser to add to home screen (or whatever the action is called in that UI)" (view diff)
jsilvestre joined the channel
#
snarfed gRegor`: yeah, manufacturers can still choose their base image apps. you see that with play services, "pure google experience," and true forks like amazon's and all the chinese ones (e.g. xiaomi)
#
snarfed try to uninstall currents on your n4, for example :/
#
tantek kylewm do you have Firefox or Chrome for Android installed? Curious what those look like when you "Add to Home Screen" from them.
#
kylewm tantek: no, I'll install FF
#
snarfed tells himself to take it to #indiechat
#
gRegor` I was about to say, haha
#
gRegor` When I add adactio to my homescreen, I get his astronaut icon, not the one kylewm's screenshot does. Interesting.
#
gRegor` Was the icon added recently or a while ago, kylewm?
chrissaad, paulcp and scor joined the channel
#
kylewm gRegor`: just this morning
#
gRegor` Interesting. Was it adactio.com or a subpage?
#
gRegor` I noticed some appear to be bookmarks to the notes stream vs. homepage. Not that it should matter...
#
kylewm just adactio.com
galfert, mlinksva, finchd and jtzl joined the channel
#
tantek.com edited /events/2014-07-30-homebrew-website-club (+125) "Minneapolis location TBD etc." (view diff)
#
tantek !tell aaronpk this is a freebie. welcome back. and take your time with all the tells. people are patient. it's all good. :)
#
Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
gregorlove.com edited /icon (+123) "/* Android browser comparisons */ my screenshot placeholder" (view diff)
#
gregorlove.com edited /icon (+6) "/* Android browser comparisons */" (view diff)
#
GWG tantek: I have Firefox installed, along with Dolphin.
#
gregorlove.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:gregor-homescreen-2014-07-18.png]]""
paulcp joined the channel
#
gRegor` Screenshot up: http://indiewebcamp.com/icon#Android_browser_comparisons Odd that it didn't find barnaby's
#
gRegor` !tell caseorganic Your shortcut icon is returning 404: http://caseorganic.com/images/caseorganic-256.jpg
#
Loqi Ok, I'll tell her that when I see her next
#
tantek.com edited /events/2014-07-30-homebrew-website-club (+38) "/* RSVP */ Minnesota" (view diff)
#
gregorlove.com edited /icon (+162) "/* Android browser comparisons */" (view diff)
wolftune and awolf joined the channel
#
Loqi [mention] http://www.lahtela.com/hueman-theme-google-authorship/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/h-entry (pingback)
#
gRegor` I'm wondering if we should move "What" to the top on the individual HWC event pages.
#
gRegor` When is most useful to those that already know about HWC, but sometimes I link new people to the event page and it would be nice if they saw "What" first
mdik, squeakytoy2 and KartikPrabhu joined the channel
#
mko Wow. Facebook's App Permissions Approved Items system is really involved and prohibitive now. In order to get automatic publishing rights or access to almost any information, you have to individually select just about every permission separately and provide at least 4 screenshots of how you're going to be using Facebook.
awolf and gRegor` joined the channel
#
kylewm mko: snarfed went through that with Bridgy recently, huge hassle
#
kylewm facebook--
#
Loqi facebook has -6 karma
#
mko Seriously.
#
mko facebook--
#
Loqi facebook has -7 karma
#
gRegor` I dunno, I think making it harder for FB apps to do stuff with information is good. I loathe adding apps on FB because never know what they're going to do.
#
kylewm apologist!
#
gRegor` Haha
#
gRegor` Dude, I hate FB.
awolf joined the channel
#
gRegor` Another indieweb plus. Easy to share just the information you want :)
#
mko Do you remember how long snarfed waited for his submission review?
#
snarfed mko: under a day iirc. looking now
#
mko Cool, thanks, snarfed.
#
snarfed but fwiw i didn't actually use/need the approval from it
#
mko Even for publishing a post?
#
mko I thought you needed publish_actions to do that.
caseorganic joined the channel
#
mko Or to POSSE Event RSVPs?
#
Loqi caseorganic: gRegor` left you a message 1 hour, 20 minutes ago: Your shortcut icon is returning 404: http://caseorganic.com/images/caseorganic-256.jpg
#
KartikPrabhu snarfed: kylewm: why did bridgy pick up this response and retweet: https://twitter.com/kartik_prabhu/status/449032538476929024 ?
#
snarfed oh sure, but that was all doable before the v2 api
#
@kartik_prabhu The #indieweb or: how I learnt to stop worrying and love the #blog. Comes about a year since I went indie (https://kartikprabhu.com/article/indieweb-love-blog) (twitter.com/_/status/449032538476929024)
#
mko I thought you'd need rsvp_event for that..
#
snarfed honestly i'm not sure if i'm using the v2 api yet, which afaik is what needs the new approval process
#
snarfed or if i'm grandfathered in, or what. meh
#
mko Oh. Gotcha. My other account is grandfathered in, I think. It has a ton more permissions approved.
#
kylewm yeah, iirc we thought permissions were the problem with getting a 500 response on Publish
#
kylewm but it ended up being related to custom actions?
#
KartikPrabhu boo I meant why did bridgy not pickup that reply and retweet
#
snarfed kylewm++ yup
#
Loqi kylewm has 29 karma
#
snarfed the "See Original" action link
#
snarfed KartikPrabhu: it may be too old
#
kylewm I hope no one ever looks up what % of my karma came from snarfed
#
kylewm I suspect 90%? :P
#
snarfed lol
#
KartikPrabhu snarfed: oh so that does happen?
#
snarfed KartikPrabhu: yeah. https://www.brid.gy/about#missing , search for "50"
#
snarfed (todo, add fragmentions to that page)
#
KartikPrabhu snarfed: yes! get with the times man!
#
KartikPrabhu so if i manually construct the URLs it would works?
#
snarfed KartikPrabhu: sure!
#
KartikPrabhu snarfed: cool! will do then :)
androtest joined the channel
#
KartikPrabhu snarfed: curious as to how bridgy has the retweets as a URL but not polled and pinged it? Did it construct the page when I manually put the URL in the browser?
androte65 joined the channel
#
snarfed yup, the latter. the source urls all use the silo apis to fetch data directly
#
KartikPrabhu aah so each page is dynamically generated everytime? or does it store/cache them?
#
snarfed every time :/
#
KartikPrabhu hmmm... well that would be easiest to make I suppose. thanks :)
#
snarfed some minor details in https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/15
#
KartikPrabhu snarfed: does the API not grant access to the 'notifications' in twitter?
#
snarfed KartikPrabhu: not that i know of. https://dev.twitter.com/docs/api/1.1
#
KartikPrabhu hmmm :(
tantek, wolftune and KartikPrabhu joined the channel
#
@Jon__Stone @temporaryhuman if I hashtag indieweb it somehow overtakes twitter I don't get it thx (twitter.com/_/status/490244813842022400)
#
@Jon__Stone @temporaryhuman is indieweb the notdotcom I've always asked for (twitter.com/_/status/490245506925604864)
#
tantek heh
#
tantek.com edited /Events (+31) "move 07-16 to recent, hilite next IWC" (view diff)
#
tantek snarfed, re: /h-card#Issues - the rephrasing as pure user features section is a better focus, going to start there
#
snarfed tantek: great!
#
tantek these seem more like issues with /posts than h-card
#
tantek and /reply
#
snarfed the second one, yes. the third one, probably not
#
tantek the third one is awfully handwavy / theoretical
#
tantek could be raised as an /indieAuth question perhaps
#
tantek if someone has an IndieAuth user-flow that makes use of such information - but I've yet to see any documented … I'd shove that down pretty low in priority
#
tantek and certainly would reject any strawman extension / brainstorming on something that doesn't even have a documented user-flow
#
snarfed it's not really about auth
#
snarfed it's about webapps that fetch and use your h-card as your profile. but sure, considering there aren't many (any?) of those that actually exist yet
#
tantek that's totally format-before-the-ux
#
tantek which is against our principles
#
tantek snarfed - *any*
#
snarfed agreed
#
snarfed hmans: remind us, were you ever thinking about pulling someone's h-card from their domain and using it to represent them elsewhere in the pants network?
#
snarfed or maybe it was mko
#
snarfed !tell mko remind us, were you the one asking about this for your Passport work? http://indiewebcamp.com/h-card##when+I+log+into
#
tantek alright, I'm going to start splitting up these issues and trying to resolve them on their appropriate pages rather than on /h-card
#
Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
tantek I'll leave behind FAQs that point to where they went
#
tantek.com edited /h-card (+134) "/* Issues */ move user feature based issues first - they are more real and deserve to be processed / resolved first" (view diff)
KartikPrabhu joined the channel
#
GWG I was working on location at IWC East.
#
GWG So, I'm storing location data, but not displaying it yet
#
tantek GWG - are there IndieWeb Examples in /location?
#
barnabywalters RE places use cases: as a memory aid, and also potentially useful or interesting for people to see where I’ve been and whether or not it was any good
#
barnabywalters e.g. “I’m in Iceland and know that Barnaby lives there, let’s see where he goes to eat”
#
GWG tantek: I've been meaning to add http://codex.wordpress.org/Geodata in as part of it
#
GWG Since I'm using it to store the data.
#
barnabywalters RE implied checkins, what is required for them to be real checkins? venue data attached?
#
barnabywalters as opposed to just coordinates and address?
#
tantek GWG "meaning to add" - add that to your "Itches" section on your User page :)
#
GWG barnabywalters: Sometimes you want a venue but not coordinates or an address?
#
tantek barnabywalters: I think it's about which part of your post is the "focus" or primary aspect
#
tantek for a checkin, a named venue is the "important" part
#
GWG tantek: I have to document my procrastination?
#
tantek as opposed to just "location" can be a geo coordinate or structured address
#
barnabywalters here’s an example of what currently passes for a checkin on my site: http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4UUPH3/
#
tantek GWG - helps reduce repeating, and helps prioritize
#
barnabywalters ideally the venue should be a tangible element on the page rather than just a piece of text
#
GWG barnabywalters: Can you elaborate on tangible element?
#
barnabywalters GWG: it should have thingness on the page
#
barnabywalters there should be some visual element on the page which obviously represents the venue
#
GWG barnabywalters: I cannot picture that
#
tantek barnabywalters: helps to document existing real world silo examples, e.g. screenshots
#
GWG barnabywalters: Do you have an example of anyone who represents thingness well?
#
barnabywalters tommorris does
#
barnabywalters I don’t really use any checkin service currently so can’t easily find screenshots
#
barnabywalters GWG: e.g. http://tommorris.org/posts/8073
brianloveswords joined the channel
#
barnabywalters there’s a visual element on the page which obviously represents the venue
#
tantek werd.io has good examples
#
tantek see also /checkin#IndieWeb_Examples :P
#
GWG Venue is more interesting to me than Geodata sometimes.
#
GWG Because Venue can be specific, yet vague
#
barnabywalters Known’s checkins aren’t really any more fleshed out than Taproot’s
#
GWG For example, I can declare Home a Venue.
#
GWG But I don't have to tell people where it is.
#
barnabywalters they’re just text posts with a map
#
gregorlove.com edited /User:Gregorlove.com (+267) "/* Interests */ media checkins" (view diff)
#
tantek barnabywalters: but to your point - there's more of a thingness to them :P
#
barnabywalters tantek: not really any more than my own
#
barnabywalters they’re exactly the same, a map and a piece of text
#
tantek yes - looks good
#
tantek like a checkin
#
tantek says checked in
#
tantek names a specific named venue
#
barnabywalters yep, exactly the same as my checkins
#
tantek has a map of that venue as a primary visual element of the post - looks good!
#
barnabywalters the only difference is that I type “Checked into (venue name)”
#
gRegor` thingness, heh
#
gRegor` what is thingness
#
tantek barnabywalters: as someone viewing that post - can't tell that you typed something
#
gRegor` (Loqi prompt, not really asking)
#
barnabywalters tantek: so what specifically is missing from my checkins which is present in werd.io’s checkins which makes them more… checkinney?
#
tantek barnabywalters: nothing - that's what I meant by "looks good"
#
barnabywalters tantek: ah, okay :)
#
tantek "looks good!" even :)
#
barnabywalters !!!
#
barnabywalters this is my WIP venue creation UI: http://waterpigs.co.uk/img/screen-shot-2014-07-18-at-221549.png
#
barnabywalters it’ll be usable as a micropub app just like my note UI
#
KartikPrabhu barnabywalters: very nice interface!
#
KartikPrabhu err I mean UI :P no one says interface any more
#
barnabywalters KartikPrabhu: thanks! there are glitches to be ironed out, but it’s quite workable
#
tommorris drunkenly appreciates the mentions, barnabywalters
#
Loqi tommorris: tantek left you a message on 7/17 at 5:49pm: https://projectdouglas.org doesn't load for me. just spins and spins.
#
barnabywalters KartikPrabhu: ha ha, I was in the Vienna technical museum recently and they had an old huge computer with various hilarious “interfaces” like the “audio tape interface” and the “chess board interface”
#
KartikPrabhu man! I can't wait to use all these micropub UIs you people are making instead of the crappy Django admin stuff
#
KartikPrabhu barnabywalters: yeah seems 'interface' is reserved for the hardware type things
#
barnabywalters KartikPrabhu: maybe not… no-one thinks of a keyboard as a “keyboard interface”, or a “camera interface”, or a “mouse interface”
#
tantek ok I'm seeing another round of annoyance on FB with people-tagging (I like to point out silo-annoyances here to see if anyone else is encountering them, and if so, documenting with screenshots)
#
tantek I try to tag someone in a *public* photo and it says "Something went wrong. We're working on getting it fixed as soon as we can."
#
tantek (someone I've tagged before, and can tag in other photos)
#
tantek I feel it is helpful to document every time the silos provide *bad* UX as it's an opportunity for us to do better. And then demonstrate as such.
#
KartikPrabhu tantek: haven't used FB for about a week and hardly tag people... so not much from me on the FB end...
#
tantek that's one solution :)
#
mko barnabywalters: I like that UI. Why is there such a large blank space to the left, though? Could you use it better by adjusting the placement of the location preview, or do multiple location options show up (i.e. like a location search)?
#
Loqi mko: snarfed left you a message 49 minutes ago: remind us, were you the one asking about this for your Passport work? http://indiewebcamp.com/h-card##when+I+log+into
#
snarfed tantek: to be fair, that doesn't really sound like a design problem, more just a bug
barnabywalters and wolftune joined the channel
#
mko snarfed: Yes. I've implemented the basic h-card functionality, actually, in passport-indieauth. After authenticating and verifying that you own the domain, it uses microformat-node by glennjones to parse the first h-card on the page, preferably one that is verified as "me" (but is non-discriminatory for v1).
#
barnabywalters mko: yep, acknowledged that the layout is a bit wonky — but yes, search results appear along the side. In that case there’s only one
#
snarfed mko: cool. do you know of any existing webapps that use passport for login and would actually use that h-card-based profile info in an existing feature?
#
mko I wanted to extend that by some form of metadata that tells people or parsers to parse a second URL instead of the one that it was initially parsing for more extended information.
#
snarfed if so, worth adding to that wiki page, since we don't know of any yet
#
mko I'm not sure. I don't know how widespread the usage of Passport is these days.
#
snarfed k. if you come across one, definitely add it
#
mko Will do
#
david.shanske.com edited /WordPress/Development (+993) "Location" (view diff)
#
tantek snarfed re: "just a bug" I disagree - it's a super crappy error message from a user-perspective. "Something went wrong." really? could you be more specific?
#
mko But as of right now, there was about 7000 downloads of Passport.js yesterday (which is pretty typical of a weekday).
#
snarfed tantek: sure. still though, that's a global fb problem, not specific to tagging people
#
david.shanske.com edited /User:David.shanske.com (+16) "/* Features in Development */" (view diff)
#
tantek design problem: SHOULD NEVER HAPPEN. at a minimum save that action to local storage and indicate on the tag with some color/annotation that the tag is "pending" or some such network activity nonsense
#
snarfed tantek: honestly, with very large distributed systems, often you can't be more specific. for many failure modes, i don't know that they could do better. the real fix is to make their infrastructure more reliable
#
tantek mko - do downloads mean anything? let me know when there are "interesting" (or any?) user-visible / public sites that use Passport.
#
tantek seriously - people download RFCs and W3C specs all the time too - and that doesn't mean squat.
#
tantek snarfed - I don't think "more reliable infrastructure is the answer" as infrastructure that large/complex is probabilistically unreliable.
#
tantek better approach - always save everything locally immediately (better / more responsive UX) and then use JS workers to sync that state back to the server
#
snarfed tantek: not true. the *history of the internet* technically is all about making reliable systems out of unreliable parts
#
mko Let me rephrase it: there were around 7000 downloads from NPM, which means that there were around 7000 installs of the software.
#
snarfed re saving it locally, given how compatible they have to be, and since users have to approve a prompt, they can expect that to work on a minority, which isn't really enough
#
mko Because there's no real way to see who is using Passport and who is using one of the various other auth frameworks, I have no idea who is using it.
#
tantek snarfed, just every desktop browser and smartphone mobile browser. doesn't sound like a minority to me.
#
tantek "every" = 95%+
#
tantek plenty of local storage frameworks to do that
#
snarfed sure. feel free to document it. it's not worth documenting every individual place it pops up, since it's common fb design
#
tantek snarfed - seems to be happening a lot
#
tantek we've documented unreliability on plenty of silos
#
tantek Twitter, Tumblr etc.
#
tantek downtimes etc.
#
tantek all good material to answer those who claim silos work "just fine" for "normal" users
#
tantek in practice they're frustratingly flakey at times
#
snarfed yeah, but again, i think that's a different thing than bad design. software quality and reliability is hard, esp for big systems, and orthogonal to indie vs big co
#
tantek (Twitter's crappiness is one of the things that finally motivated me to write my own notes posting support on my site)
#
snarfed there's no way in hell we do better overall uptime with our individual sites than fb or twitter or g+
#
tantek snarfed, in 2010 I was doing better than Twitter. they've gotten better since.
#
tantek also - their uptime stats all lie
#
snarfed sure. but that's the exception
#
tantek because they count such error messages as uptime
#
tantek which is crap
#
tantek they count "server uptime" - not "user feature uptime"
#
tantek they measure their plumbing uptime, not their UX uptime
#
snarfed sure, i'm not here to split hairs. truly high availability is a fundamentally hard problem, and being small doesn't make it a lot easier, only a little
#
tommorris If tommorris.org is down, I can fix that
#
tantek that too
#
snarfed and even so, they overall do better than us
#
snarfed tommorris: sure you can. the point is, what's your year over year uptime? 98%? 99%? 99.9%?
#
snarfed they're all better, and rightly so. they invest a ton in it
#
tantek snarfed - the place where we can easily beat *most* of them is performance / latency
#
snarfed which is all fine, we don't have to beat them at that, but we do have to acknowledge that some unreliability is to be expected, and our sites are almost always *more* unreliable
#
tantek FB being the notable exception - those guys are *fast* with page response time (impressively so)
#
snarfed tantek: for feature parity? doubtful. maybe so…but it's a different argument
#
tantek G+ is a slow pig - at everything
#
tantek trivial to out perform in terms of *any* feature
#
KartikPrabhu I don't know. I've had pretty slow response times from FB... specially when logging out
#
KartikPrabhu G+ is too big and doing too much for its own good
#
Loqi [mention] https://petermolnar.eu/linux-tech-coding/wordpress-cleanup-markdown-import-twitter-import-facebook/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/selfdogfood (pingback)
#
tantek snarfed - yeah feature parity is a different argument - but we're getting close to that with some too, e.g. here's the list to replace Twitter with your own site: http://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#Features
#
KartikPrabhu wow that is a pretty descriptive permalink right there ^^ by petermolnar
brianloveswords joined the channel
#
tantek In fact I will throw down this challenge now
#
tantek who will be the first to superset Twitter with their own website? i.e. fully support the feature set listed here: http://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#Features
#
tantek consider the race on.
#
Loqi [mention] https://petermolnar.eu/linux-tech-coding/wordpress-cleanup-markdown-import-twitter-import-facebook/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/posse (pingback)
#
snarfed tantek: search kinda deserves to be on that list :P
#
tantek reading that petermolnar post - no wonder there are professional wordpress consulting services like WPEngine to maintain a wordpress install
#
GWG tantek: It isn't that bad, I think
#
tantek hahaha. ahem. GWG, seems like only a matter of time before any non-dev I know switches off of wordpress and onto something like Jekyll (e.g. crystal_ most recently - and she was a staunch defender of how easy it was to keep WP updated)
#
tantek too many zero day exploits etc.
#
tantek aint nobody got time for that
#
kylewm that's more of a monoculture problem, right?
#
GWG tantek: They now have the ability to autodeploy .1 updates
#
tantek kylewm: sort of. marketsize problem.
#
kylewm there are probably a zillion zero days in Red Wind
#
tantek kylewm: something is not a zero day until someone discloses it publicly with zero days heads-up to you.
#
tantek so until that happens, you have zero zero days
#
kylewm :)
#
tantek you might have a zillion potentials ;)
#
tantek has anyone implemented "I read this" posts? kind of like scrobbling for reading web pages?
#
KartikPrabhu what is this 'zero day' ?
#
tantek I seem to log a lot of "I read this" and "I skimmed this" in my personal (local text file) log
#
tantek KartikPrabhu: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-day_attack
#
GWG tantek: I'll be agreeing to disagree with you on the Wordpress side of things. And continuing to develop Indieweb type plugins
#
tantek GWG - don't get me wrong, I think it is *awesome* that you are able to efficiently use WordPress
#
tantek that just means you have more to teach the rest of us :)
#
GWG tantek: Wonder if I should respond to that post. I have alternate choices.
#
tantek GWG - please do! or writeup your own "optimal" setup as its own blog post
#
tantek and this is the time of the day wherein I reference #indiechat for anyone wanting to chat about non-indieweb things like food, or current events.
#
tantek (unrelated to the wordpress discussion obv which is on topic)
#
GWG What I like changes, but I should.
#
GWG For example, I use SNAP, as he does, but I hate it and wish there was something better.
#
tantek GWG - snapshots of what you like is helpful!
#
tantek as is such commentary
#
tantek what is SNAP?
#
GWG Social Network Auto Poster
#
GWG It is the POSSE plugin
#
GWG But the code is horrible
#
tantek snarfed, when you say you would add "search" what exact search use-case did you mean?
#
GWG Which is why I'd switch to Bridgy for Publishing if not for 2 things
#
snarfed tantek: all of twitter's. search for people, search for notes from everyone or from your followers, search for any note nearby
#
snarfed i'm adding now, you can delete or revise after :P
#
kylewm GWG: are those two things filed as issues on github?
#
barnabywalters snarfed: twitter does location-aware search now?!
#
snarfed barnabywalters: afaik has for years
#
kylewm s/github/github\/bridgy
#
Loqi kylewm meant to say: GWG: are those two things filed as issues on github\?
#
barnabywalters oh wow I had not realised that
#
tantek snarfed we have a /search page
#
barnabywalters er, how do you search nearby from twitter.com?
#
tantek the "all of twitter" analogy to an indiewebsite would be "all of an indiewebsite"
#
snarfed sure! i meant, i'm adding it to /Twitter to the feature list
#
snarfed tantek: not really, more like "all of all indiewebsites"
#
snarfed and therein lies the rub
#
tantek snarfed - twitter doesn't search beyond twitter.com, so no need for this to mean anything more for an indiewebsite either
#
GWG kylewm: I think they are. Let me look
#
tantek snarfed - when twitter starts crawling other websites then we can add that
#
snarfed tantek: my point is, twitter searches *across multiple people*
#
tantek snarfed - for example, twitter search does not find results from article summaries they show
#
mko Cross-IndieWeb isn't that difficult.
#
GWG kylewm: Issue 85.
#
tantek mko LOL
#
snarfed mko: lol indeed. it's harder than most things we've built, if not everything
#
snarfed doable! but not easy, esp if you want it to scale
#
tantek I'd say the analogous "search" functionality is merely all posts on your site
#
tantek since that's all twitter search covers, all posts on twitter's site
#
barnabywalters searching across people you follow is easy for a reader built around a search engine e.g. elasticsearch
#
mko Eh. I'm pretty sure the search index module that I'm running could do that fairly easily. The hard part is building indices.
#
GWG Also, one that might not be
#
mko Agreed, barnabywalters. That's kind of what I was thinking.
#
tantek mko you had me at "the hard part is building"
#
kylewm GWG: photos is a blocker for me too
#
barnabywalters mko: I am working on one https://github.com/barnabywalters/shrewdness
#
kylewm GWG: I'm curious what the other one is though, regardless of whether it's an issue
#
barnabywalters veeerrry slowly
#
tantek is not accepting any claims of "simple" or "easy" or "not that difficult" for anything someone has not yet deployed live on their own site. ;)
#
mko Nice, barnabywalters
#
barnabywalters tantek: give me a few weeks :)
#
mko I wish it were Node.js and not PHP, but I can live with PHP if I have to.
#
GWG kylewm: The other one I'm having trouble describing. It is basically how to tell Bridgy whether a publish should be a link + title or entire text of post
#
tommorris tantek is the Show Me state
#
barnabywalters mko: most of the work is done by elasticsearch and the rest goes into making the UI, so feel free to clone/steal from it and recreate using node :)
#
tantek tommorris: more like the "Ship it" state
#
mko tantek wouldn't believe he was born if it didn't say so on his birth certificate. "Document it, then I'll believe it." ;)
#
tantek mko - I'd settle for a URL where it worked
#
mko Truth.
#
mko tantek++
#
Loqi tantek has 50 karma
#
tantek URLs on the web = existence of web stuff
#
tommorris mko: there is a running instance. Sometimes a literally running instance.
#
mko :-D
#
tantek mko, tommorris feel free to add your sites to http://indiewebcamp.com/search#IndieWeb_Examples when you have search working on your personal site ;)
#
mko barnabywalters: Once I'm done with the first version of Indie.js, I'll certainly do it.
#
tantek til then, nothing is easy. except talk.
#
tantek ;)
#
tommorris tantek: mine is just a duckduckgo form like your google form
#
tantek tommorris: great! document that! good to have non-google alternatives
#
tantek and if it works well I might switch to that
#
mko Hoping that will be the case by the end of next week, tantek. :-)
#
snarfed.org edited /Twitter (+721) "/* Features */ tagging, search, notifications, mobile apps" (view diff)
#
tantek Google has been dropping some of my posts from their index
#
tommorris Will do when not in pub
#
tantek snarfed have you seen any people-tagged photos on twitter? because I haven't.
#
snarfed i have. i don't have the link handy
#
snarfed.org edited /Twitter (+16) "/* Features */ search is across people" (view diff)
#
tantek are native apps a feature? just seems like a delivery mechanism
#
snarfed hence my parenthetical
#
snarfed feel free to delete
#
kylewm.com edited /search (+223) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ add emmak's native search implementation" (view diff)
#
snarfed doffs his official "silo apologist" hat for the day
#
snarfed :P
#
tantek haha - that's no apologism - that's research documentation!
#
GWG snarfed: Do you have a picture of you in your Silo Apologist hat?
#
tantek gonna have to try harder snarfed ;)
#
KartikPrabhu gives snarfed a 'research documentor' hat!
#
snarfed will shoot anyone who says "pics or it didn't happen"
#
snarfed https://snarfed.org/2013-09-24_the-unquantified-self##didn’t+happen
#
tommorris Snarfed = double agent for the insurgency
#
tommorris To be fair, I'm a double agent against Facebook
#
tantek since people tagging is something that Flickr, Facebook, Instagram, and apparently Twitter all do - what should we call them? person tags? people tags? other?
#
tantek.com edited /Twitter (-107) "move people tagged to its own page" (view diff)
#
tantek looks like "people tag" wins the google relevant results contest so I'm going with that unless someone has a better suggestion
#
tantek.com created /people-tagged (+24) "r" (view diff)
#
mko snarfed: So, since you recently dealt with Facebook API stuff . . . do refresh tokens no longer exist?
#
snarfed mko: if your app is purely offline, they don't. the access token you get scope offline_access lasts 2mo, then the user has to manually re-sign up for your app to get a new one
#
snarfed if it's online, ie they're interacting with it in a browser, then you can just get a new token each time. it won't re-prompt unless you ask for new scopes
#
mko Interesting.
#
kylewm GWG: about publish and full note vs. title + link... isn't that as "simple" as distinguishing note vs. article?
#
snarfed big change a while back, was discussed widely
#
mko Nice improvement over the refresh token state management we used to have to od.
#
mko do*
#
snarfed kylewm GWG: actually i think it's p-summary vs e-content, right?
#
snarfed GWG: if you sometimes populate p-summary and/or p-name, and bridgy prefers some combination of those to e-content when available, would that work?
#
snarfed http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2#h-entry
#
tantek.com created /people-tag (+1275) "stub with dfn, why, how, silo examples, see also" (view diff)
#
snarfed mko: eh that's what oauth libs are for, right? no need to implement it yourself
#
tantek snarfed - for your explicit review (since you added people tagging to the Twitter feature list) http://indiewebcamp.com/people-tag
#
mko I got a deprecation warning.
#
tantek.com edited /tags (+17) "/* See Also */ people-tag" (view diff)
#
snarfed tantek: i hereby rubber stamp. :P i actually know very little about it, just that it exists
#
tantek I was just hoping the spirit of what you meant in reasonably human understandable prose.
#
mko Reads well to me.
#
tantek hoping *I captured* the
#
tantek thanks mko
#
tantek and feel free to add any more silo examples
#
tantek does anyone do people tags on their indieweb posts? and if so, how?
#
mko I haven't seen any, but now I want to.
#
tantek.com edited /people-tag (+117) "note SWAT0 had people tagging" (view diff)
#
tantek mko good to get photo posts working first ;)
#
mko Already have them working.
#
mko Trying to get Facebook POSSE working before I push this thing live.
#
snarfed tantek: adding g+, otherwise lgtm
#
snarfed.org edited /people-tag (+108) "/* Silo Examples */ g+" (view diff)
wolftune joined the channel
#
tantek.com edited /SWAT0 (+184) "dfn" (view diff)
#
cuibonobo how would people-tags be different from simply mentioning people in the note / caption?
#
tantek cuibonobo: in the UI of the notification
#
tantek and in some cases, in the UI of the tagging
#
mko cuibonobo: as well as the UX of the tags themselves (i.e., typically "people-tags" show you in a photo which person is which)
#
snarfed tantek: so twitter's search "across people" seemed redundant? fine with me actually, just curious since you didn't assume it at first
#
tantek s/some/most
#
Loqi tantek meant to say: and in most cases, in the UI of the tagging
#
tantek snarfed oops wait did I delete something mistakenly? let me check diffs.
#
snarfed yeah. nbd. gotta love mediawiki. merging is hard, let's go shopping
#
cuibonobo mko: that would mean we’d have to save the coordinates of the tag relative to the photo somehow
#
tantek haha oops. sorry. will fix.
#
tantek snarfed, but now that I read "across people over people" that seems either redundant or confusing
#
mko cuibonobo: Yeah. Not ideal. Lots of metadata required to make a "Facebook-like" or "iPhoto-like" people-tag experience.
#
snarfed sure. i'm guessing you know what i meant, right? feel free to reword
#
tantek snarfed - I think? across a subset of people?
#
kylewm cuibonobo: tantek: maybe move or reference this in people-tag? http://indiewebcamp.com/photo#People_Tagging
#
snarfed tantek: i guess two things. a) search for people, b) search across all people's tweets
#
tantek see now the darn wiki search didn't find that
#
tantek snarfed, search across all tweets on twitter.com
#
cuibonobo kylewm: oh wow imagemaps! i had forgotten about those
#
snarfed tantek: of course
#
snarfed (as long as the parallel to twitter.com is the web, not a single indiewebsite :P)
#
kylewm cuibonobo: i know right? i last used an imagemap about the time of the <marquee> tag
#
mko <blink>
#
cuibonobo yuuup. exactly.
#
tantek.com edited /photos (+25) "/* People Tagging */ main" (view diff)
#
tantek.com created /people_tagging (+24) "r" (view diff)
#
mko POLL: Where do you POSSE notes to currently on your live site?
#
tantek.com edited /people-tag (+891) "brainstorming HTML image maps" (view diff)
#
tantek mko see /notes#IndieWeb_Examples
#
tantek snarfed - nope, the parallel to twitter.com is not the entire web. sorry to say.
#
snarfed tantek: i'll bite. what is it then? it's more than just your site, and more than the sites of everyone you follow or everyone who follows you. so…?
#
tantek but it might be everything that is on a single site, including posts by others that you cache, or include in reply contexts, comments, etc.
#
tantek and if your site supports being a /reader - then everything you've read or have queued to read
#
snarfed that's not really a parallel, it's a different scope altogether
#
tantek basicaly, the more functionality you add to your site, the harder the search problem becomes
#
tantek it's a parallel in the same way that if someone is not on twitter, then twitter does not search them
#
tantek the scope is the site
#
tantek and people who have stuff on the site
#
snarfed i think the parallel there is, if someone doesn't have a web site, web search doesn't search them
#
snarfed i disagree. a single person's indieweb site is not the corollary to a silo. their profile/wall on that silo is.
#
tantek but we're building a parallel to twitter, not to the entire web
#
tantek so if someone doesn't have a twitter account, then twitter search doesn't search them
#
tantek similarly if someone has no interactions on your site, then your site doesn't search them
#
tantek that seems like a reasonable analogy
#
tantek even liberal - as Twitter doesn't search contents of links mentioned on Twitter
#
snarfed ok, i see your perspective. it's unreasonable to say a single person's website has to provide global or even indieweb-wide search, across people
#
tantek until twitter or FB provide search across all silos then yeah, it's not reasonable to say indieweb sites should provide search across all indieweb sites
#
snarfed i'd argue that, to truly have feature parity with twitter, we'd need an indieweb-wide search engine (ie across people) to exist…but it could be a centralized service. doesn't need to be on every person's site
#
snarfed s/doesn't need/shouldn't/
#
Loqi snarfed meant to say: i'd argue that, to truly have feature parity with twitter, we'd need an indieweb-wide search engine (ie across people) to exist…but it could be a centralized service. shouldn't to be on every person's site
#
kylewm centralized search across indieweb == google?
#
snarfed and if we say google is it, that works for me
#
snarfed heh jinx
#
tantek snarfed - it's an interesting perspective from a usage perspective.
#
tantek i.e. the test question of "what do you still use twitter.com for that you can't do on your own site?"
#
snarfed yup
#
tantek so if you still go to twitter.com to search, what are you searching that you can't search using your own site's "search" feature?
#
tantek similarly FB search etc.
awolf joined the channel
#
snarfed other people's posts!!!
#
tantek snarfed - well, if you have a /reader that caches other people's posts that you follow, surely you could implement search over those on your own site
#
snarfed but that's a small minority use case
#
snarfed when people search fb or twitter, often (usually) they're searching for stuff they *haven't* already seen
#
tantek I haven't already seen most people's tweets that I follow
#
snarfed e.g. "i want to see what people are saying about X right now"
#
tantek heh - that's the old Technorati tagline
#
kylewm I'd like to see indieweb tags / "trending topics" way before indieweb search
#
tantek irony about twitter search - it doesn't let you *only* search your own tweets
#
mko At least they now provide a full JSON dump of all your tweets on demand.
#
GWG tantek: Did the problem that technorati was trying to solve get solved?
#
tantek also I'm starting to consider feature parity of Twitter vintages
#
tantek GWG - no, no one has done any better, not even Google.
#
tantek even Google let their blog search wither
#
tantek and their more recent "real time search" died with their non-renewal of Twitter's firehose BD
#
GWG tantek: Time for a solution?