#indiewebcamp 2014-07-19

2014-07-19 UTC
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tantek GWG - there's certainly an opportunity for someone to build a new real time search engine / site / service
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snarfed isn't klout the new technorati?
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snarfed ducks
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tantek snarfed klout has search? ;)
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snarfed who knows
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tantek didn't think so
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tantek GWG - problem right now with building a real time search engine is that no one would bother using it unless it had Twitter firehose indexed, which is prohibitive (both from a pay-Twitter perspective, and from a build-infrastructure-to-handle perspective)
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tantek even Google couldn't do it
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tantek thus it's not time to try that
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GWG tantek: I was more thinking of it from the Indieweb perspective. If there is a lower bar substitute.
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tantek but maybe time to start experimenting with indieweb-only real time search, if only to provide a service to the community to iterate on
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tantek except current majority opinion is that PuSH is too much of a pain to consume, so we're stuck once again
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mko It'd basically be a curated search system.
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tantek without a practical real time publishing notification protocol
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mko The bigger problem that I see would be that it would a pretty serious echo chamber on most topics.
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tantek presumably as people develop /readers on their own sites, that will force the issue of real time subscriptions
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tantek mko - why? because we seem to agree on everything here? ;)
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GWG tantek: What about snarfed's solution?
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mko lol. You know it.
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snarfed oh god i hope i didn't propose a search solution
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tantek mko - I say you're categorically wrong about echo chamber. and the irc logs prove it. :D
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GWG snarfed: No, a real time publishing notification protocol
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snarfed oh god i hope i didn't propose a real time publishing notification protocol
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mko To be fair, tantek, we typically come to a consensus before we really do much posting.
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tantek snarfed, you proposed a simplification of PuSH? do tell!
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GWG snarfed: You use bridgy/publish, which can be an empty link...to generate a webmention
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tantek mko - disagreed. we typically ship stuff on our own sites first, then discuss later
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snarfed GWG: ah. webmention…sure
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tantek that's the difference, we don't wait around for people to argue
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tantek and sometimes, whoever ships something that works wins
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mko True story.
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kylewm GWG: I'm excited about where you're going with this, webmentions for topic tags?
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tantek you might be waiting for consensus … ;)
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GWG snarfed: I didn't say it was a protocol. I said a solution
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mko So snarfed better ship that real-time publishing notification protocol and search engine.
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tantek (ok I'll stop giving mko a hard time for a week :) )
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GWG kylewm: It could work, couldn't it?
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mko No, tantek. Please don't.
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kylewm GWG: I have a half written blog post about it
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mko The pressure is nice.
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tantek mko - like I said, I'll give you the week you asked for :)
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snarfed mko: a) webmention, and b) i punt :P
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GWG kylewm: What does it say?
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kylewm GWG: we could just start pinging non-existent pages like indiewebcamp.com/indietags/sometopic and I think they'd show up here
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GWG kylewm: There a downside?
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kylewm so that's my handwave proof of concept
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GWG kylewm: So, we were thinking the same basic idea
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kylewm yep
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GWG kylewm: Question is what we are mentioning...the effect
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kylewm Something like news.indiewebcamp.com maybe, but that shows recent posts for a given topic
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kylewm news.indiewebcamp.com/politics or something
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kylewm not sure
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GWG Time to bring back the Planet?
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kylewm what is Planet?
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Loqi http://indiewebcamp.com/planet
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snarfed kylewm GWG: if you guys come up with a better bridgy publish algorithm for figuring out what to publish based on p-name/p-summary/e-content etc, please do file an issue, i'll happily implement it
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tantek is still waiting for a more user-centric term for what is "Planet"
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GWG snarfed: I think the image one is the first one.
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snarfed GWG: https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/85 ?
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GWG snarfed: You also have things like h-as-article . Not quite standard, but an optional way to specify such things
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GWG snarfed: That one
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snarfed k
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kylewm GWG: even if you just have a post that didn't work the way you wanted, that would be useful
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GWG snarfed: But there are multiple ways to specify content type
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GWG kylewm: Which would?
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tantek wait is anyone actually consuming h-as-article?
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tantek I just put them in my own posts for styling hooks
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GWG tantek: I don't know. I stole it from pfefferle's Sempress
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GWG tantek: Along with h-as-aside etc
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tantek oh boy - class name leakage
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GWG tantek: I checked its heritage. It had a pedigree
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kylewm lol
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GWG But, for Bridgy purposes, it could be used for styling
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kylewm GWG: even without an algorithm, I would like a GH issue to track example posts, what you wanted Bridgy publish to do and what it did (assuming that's ok with snarfed)
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snarfed always ok!
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kylewm (I'm amused that 'what is Planet?' worked, but I still don't know what it is)
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Loqi http://indiewebcamp.com/planet
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GWG kylewm: I need to see if there are any Bridgy issues about publish to start with
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kylewm it has a tag
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GWG Okay
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snarfed GWG: only about 40 or so. https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues?labels=publish
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GWG Will need to read to avoid duplication of thought
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GWG I probably have read some of them
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tantek snarfed, do you have a URL to Twitter location search? I don't think I've seen that before
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snarfed tantek: sorry, i don't quite follow
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tantek do you have a URL where I can do a location search on Twitter?
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tantek you mentioned faceted by location - I've never seen it
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snarfed ah. it's in the search sidebar on the left
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snarfed "near you"
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tantek wow that is horribly incomplete
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snarfed tantek: try the top/all switch?
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snarfed also most tweets aren't location tagged
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tantek I did - "All" "Near you"
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tantek same on the indieweb - most posts aren't location tagged
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kylewm snarfed: GWG: one more issue to add for publish for me... convert tagged author domains with twitter usernames https://kylewm.com/reply/2014/07/01/1
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snarfed kylewm: that would be awesome! tricky though. it's doable for people already signed up with bridgy, but harder if they're not
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kylewm agree on all counts
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snarfed (i'd also file the reverse feature request w/red wind: convert them back in the replies :P)
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kylewm lol, good point
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snarfed k, i'm off. looking forward to all the new bridgy publish issues! :P
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GWG Challenge...
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kylewm I wonder if I could mark up the h-cards in a way that would include the twitter username...
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snarfed totally! probably in a data-* attribute
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kylewm was just going to ask
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kylewm are those "ok"?
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snarfed actually i'd add an extra u-url pointing to their twitter.com profile
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kylewm as does IndieWebCamp have an Official Stance opposing data- attrs?
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snarfed got me. that's where i back away slowly
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GWG waits for Socratic like tantek response
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snarfed i'd vote for the extra u-url inside the h-card
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GWG snarfed: But how does a parser know u-url priority?
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kylewm ah gotcha, <span class="h-card"><a class="u-url" href="https://twitter.com/benwerd"></a><a class="u-url" href="https://werd.io">Ben</a></span>
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snarfed GWG: it doesn't need priority. in this case it's just searching for a silo profile url
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snarfed kylewm++
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Loqi kylewm has 30 karma
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GWG snarfed: For Bridgy, no. For other choices...
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snarfed GWG: yup, i punt. empty link text, display: none, etc.
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snarfed (all mf2 properties are multi-valued, so it's technically on parsers and clients to handle it)
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snarfed anyway, out for real this time, bye guys!
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kylewm bye!
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kylewm the only thing i know is that i'm not indifferent to that idea
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kylewm i definitely either love it or hate it and don't know which
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GWG Oh?
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kylewm ha yeah, just the hidden data part
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kylewm maybe the extended h-card for tagged people could be hidden with a way to show it
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kylewm like on mko's homepage
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mko My new homepage has an even more extended h-card.
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mko I've got all of my known identities that I feel could be relevant to someone listed out.
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mko So it's first hidden under a "Show Detailed Bio" and then "Show More Detail"
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GWG I prefer a different page, than hiding
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tantek.com edited /Twitter (+922) "break down search & notification features into specifics in terms of indieweb features, move client support to a new section" (view diff)
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mko http://f.cl.ly/items/2F2S2p0t343Y0F3I113p/Screen%20Shot%202014-07-18%20at%205.37.00%20PM.png
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tantek.com edited /Twitter (+1) "/* Clients */ as sort of a feature, heading level" (view diff)
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mko It has almost every piece of relevant information that you could want plus all of the potential places that I post, could be contacted, or otherwise reached.
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tantek snarfed - for your review, in particular the expanded treatment of search and notification in terms of a bit more detail / description of indieweb equivalents
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tantek many of those details are a first attempt - feel free to disagree/dispute/improve
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#Features
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mko I'd love to have that on its own page with better formatting and features around it, but there's no way to expose it to a parser without changing all of my rel=me links on social services to point to the about page of my website instead of my homepag.e
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mko homepage*
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mko I'd much rather they point to my homepage, clearly, so I make the content interactively hidden.
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tantek has a feeling he needs to scroll up to catch up with some discussion
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tantek oh oops snarfed left
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tantek !tell snarfed for your review, in particular the expanded treatment of search and notification in terms of a bit more detail / description of indieweb equivalents. many of those details are a first attempt - feel free to disagree/dispute/improve http://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#Features
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi snarfed: tantek left you a message 10 minutes ago: for your review, in particular the expanded treatment of search and notification in terms of a bit more detail / description of indieweb equivalents. many of those details are a first attempt - feel free to disagree/dispute/improve http://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#Features
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snarfed tantek: notification part lgtm. search part is a good description of what we'd need to replace twitter on our own site(s), but it's not really a description of twitter's own search, which it probably should be given the section heading
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snarfed maybe it should go down into the Replacing section, and revert the feature one to the earlier text, with a big disclaimer?
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snarfed you've worked hard on this page and the intent, so i'd defer to you
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tantek !tell snarfed yes we probably need to at least document the question of what would it take to stop using twitter.com for search
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek.com edited /Twitter (+174) "/* Replacing */ add point about expanded search for use-cases that you use Twitter search for" (view diff)
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tantek GWG, kylewm, mko - yes u-url for all your profile URLs is sensible. In terms of which matters more, you can always order them (order is preserved when parsing), and use rel=me on them and also use u-uid to what you consider your canonical / unique URL for you.
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rascul tantek do you use nginx?
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tantek no litespeed
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rascul ahh ok
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rascul i've been documenting my nginx https work here https://indiewebcamp.com/User:Rascul.io/ssl
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rascul i'm still working on it though but plans are to update /nginx with some of the stuff there
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tantek sounds like a good plan!
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bear yes rascul++ for getting even better cert config items in place
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bear rascul++
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Loqi rascul has 12 karma
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rascul whoa i thought i had nine last time!
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rascul i think Loqi is cheating
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bear with the list of browsers that don't support SNI being so old now - worrying about it even for IndieWeb stuff is almost a non-issue IMO
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bear IE8 being very well distributed
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tantek.com edited /tags (+284) "expand dfn inline, list people-tag explicitly" (view diff)
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bear the decision point is if you will force http:// -> https:// on first load
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bear if you don't then you can configure the admin and POST routes to be https only and just let it all hang out
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GWG rascul: Reminds me to update some of those
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bear goes back to packing
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bear taxi to airport arrives at 0330 - bed time for me very soon
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Loqi snarfed: tantek left you a message 14 minutes ago: yes we probably need to at least document the question of what would it take to stop using twitter.com for search
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@t just informed my manager of @chloeweil's passing - I barely held it together. He'd met her @IndieWebCamp NYC in April. (ttk.me t4X91) (twitter.com/_/status/490312706650431489)
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tantek snarfed - added search to Replacing: http://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#Replacing
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tantek and just left it open as "what you use Twitter search for"
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tantek which I think will differ from person to person
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snarfed tantek: great!
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snarfed the search item in the first section still describes indieweb search, not really twitter search, but up to you what to do with that
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tantek snarfed - oh right I see what you mean - I got contexts mixed up
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rascul GWG update some of what?
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tantek.com edited /Twitter (+238) "/* Features */ fix contextual description of Twitter Features, expand search in "replacing" section" (view diff)
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tantek snarfed - thanks for catching that - I was trying to keep too many things in my head and the right thing ended up in the wrong place - take a look now: http://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#Features
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tantek (Replacing section also expanded)
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snarfed tantek: np. lgtm!
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tantek snarfed++ for so politely saying I think you got the search description wrong in the Twitter features description. Good example to learn from. :)
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Loqi snarfed has 37 karma
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snarfed tantek: aww thanks. teamwork!
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gRegor` catches up on logs
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tantek is off for the night - will have to get to snarfed et al h-card issue documentation later.
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gRegor` mko: I think your links should be "Show detailed bio" and "Show detaileder bio"
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/t/487370638374363136/246500170 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014#East_Photos (webmention)
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gRegor` kylewm: Noticed your note tags don't show up in the mf2 as categories. Is that intended?
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Loqi [mention] http://gregorlove.com/notes/2014/07/18/1/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-07-18#t1405728221 (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] http://gregorlove.com/notes/2014/07/18/1/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-07-18#t1405728239 (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] http://gregorlove.com/notes/2014/07/18/1/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-07-18#t1405728249 (webmention)
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kylewm gRegor`: thanks for pointing that out, no not intended... oversight when i did the new theme
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kylewm gRegor`: out of curiosity, how'd you notice? doing something with tags?
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gRegor` I was using your note as a quick reference for my note ^, since it's sort of a re-post. The citations, basically.
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gRegor` I'm not set up for tags yet, but thought about manually adding the tag "ohgod", heh
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kylewm oh man, I almost did the same thing with those three lines!! that's hilarious
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gRegor` I only regret I was not actually here during that whole convo
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gRegor` I would have been like: michael-jackson-popcorn.gif
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kylewm I need to figure out some type of server/performance monitoring...
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gRegor` Having problems?
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kylewm apparently I've been sending bridgy beaucoups malformed http responses
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kylewm and no idea why
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gRegor` beaucoups?
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gRegor` French malformed http responses? Heh
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kylewm i meant it to be pronounced boo-coo though
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rascul bookoo
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rascul http://bookoo.com
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kylewm hehe, thank you
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rascul i don't know if that's actually the word you wanted though
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rascul that's just what came to my mind
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kylewm 'twas
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gRegor` Ahh. I honestly never knew that was spelled "beaucoup." The more you knoww.
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gRegor` I think your like needs your author h-card inside the h-entry, kylewm.
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kylewm gRegor`: do you use php-comments?
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gRegor` No
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gRegor` I thought something was wrong with my parsing (and might be), but it doesn't seem correct per /authorship either.
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gRegor` If it was in an h-feed, I could use the "top" h-card
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gRegor` Or a u-url == u-uid == current page
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kylewm hrmph, yeah I thought it was ok to have a top-level h-card outside the h-entry
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kylewm but you're right
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gRegor` Er, disregard. That's under rel-author
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kylewm /authorship doesn't support that
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gRegor` Making the whole <body> an h-feed would work, though
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gRegor` With no need to move stuff around
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gRegor` Thought maybe that's a bit hacky, since it's not really meant as a feed?
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kylewm I should make the whole page an h-entry
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gRegor` Oh, duh. Yeah, that works. :)
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Loqi it is probable
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gRegor` Highly, Loqi
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kylewm I resent gRegor`, does that look better?
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gRegor` Hey, don't resent me for this. ;)
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kylewm s/I resent gRegor`/I resent, gRegor`
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Loqi kylewm meant to say: I resent, gRegor`, does that look better?
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kylewm not at all, thank you for helping me fix my broken markup!!
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gRegor` Yep, looks like it worked!
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kylewm my h-feed needs a p-name
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kylewm gRegor`: do you not show comments on your notes yet?
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gRegor` Not yet
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gRegor` But it all looks correct in the backend
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gRegor` My webmention plugin was pretty tightly tied to the blog posts, so I've been working on abstracting it so I can display comments on any URL path, not just an article.
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@gasull @lorenzogil Related link: http://indiewebcamp.com/ (twitter.com/_/status/490389234730426368)
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@aral Looks like Known is doing everything right… :) http://werd.io/2014/my-indieweb-life-how-my-site-gives-me-an-awesome #indie +@benwerd @erinjo (twitter.com/_/status/490468174614519809)
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@graemebenzie RT @aral: Looks like Known is doing everything right… :) http://werd.io/2014/my-indieweb-life-how-my-site-gives-me-an-awesome #indie +@benwerd @erinjo (twitter.com/_/status/490469058962538498)
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@sanjaypoyzer RT @aral: Looks like Known is doing everything right… :) http://werd.io/2014/my-indieweb-life-how-my-site-gives-me-an-awesome #indie +@benwerd @erinjo (twitter.com/_/status/490469135395356672)
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@inkovic RT @aral: Looks like Known is doing everything right… :) http://werd.io/2014/my-indieweb-life-how-my-site-gives-me-an-awesome #indie +@benwerd @erinjo (twitter.com/_/status/490475800802508803)
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@ShaneHudson RT @aral: Looks like Known is doing everything right… :) http://werd.io/2014/my-indieweb-life-how-my-site-gives-me-an-awesome #indie +@benwerd @erinjo (twitter.com/_/status/490476621384937472)
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@petecorreia RT @aral: Looks like Known is doing everything right… :) http://werd.io/2014/my-indieweb-life-how-my-site-gives-me-an-awesome #indie +@benwerd @erinjo (twitter.com/_/status/490478605773062144)
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@_jden RT @aral: Looks like Known is doing everything right… :) http://werd.io/2014/my-indieweb-life-how-my-site-gives-me-an-awesome #indie +@benwerd @erinjo (twitter.com/_/status/490483542854733825)
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@jmrobles Site deaths are one of the big reasons why you should own your own identity and content on the web http://indiewebcamp.com/site_deaths (twitter.com/_/status/490482541250764800)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /venues (+720) "Documented my venue publishing" (view diff)
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@OnTheWebz RT @t: just informed my manager of @chloeweil's passing - I barely held it together. He'd met her @IndieWebCamp NYC in April. (ttk.me t4X91) (twitter.com/_/status/490516139869360129)
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kylewm.com uploaded /File:kylewm-android-firefox-icons-2014-07-19.png "Firefox for Android icons from kylewm's phone"
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kylewm.com edited /icon (+112) "/* Android browser comparisons */" (view diff)
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pdurbin man, Loqi never sleeps
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Loqi who, me?
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pdurbin Loqi: yeah you
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cuibonobo just found out from the site-deaths page that Svpply is going down… guess i need to grab my data
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cuibonobo just for some perspective: my primary motivation for moving to indieweb is actually because of these more fragile sites: bookmarks, wishlists, pinboards, etc.
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cuibonobo the personal website space is very robust and has a bunch of options to choose from
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cuibonobo but a solid place for a wishlist? not so much
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pdurbin cuibonobo: yeah, I'm into data liberation and avoiding vendor lock-in
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cuibonobo pdurbin: do you know of any indie sites that that are being used as a replacement to, say, Evernote?
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cuibonobo i'm having trouble finding examples of indie sites being used for private data
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pdurbin hmm. I just use git for that. a repo only I can reach
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cuibonobo i gotcha. i'm looking to build something that allows my stuff to be searched / sorted / tagged — all the common website stuff, but applied to private data as well
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tantek.com edited /Twitter (+60) "/* Replacing */ order a bit by importance / likely frequency of use" (view diff)
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pdurbin cuibonobo: would you build mobile apps too? my wife uses evernote but often from a phone or tablet
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tantek good morning #indiewebcamp!
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pdurbin tantek: mornin'
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cuibonobo i don't think i have the time or mental bandwidth to grok native device apps, but i *do* subscribe to the app mentality: my website would be an app that consumes my public data API, posting would be through an app that has been registered with the API, etc.
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cuibonobo tantek: hello!
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pdurbin cuibonobo: the public data api could be git :)
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cuibonobo pdurbin: hah! true enough, but is there a good way to query flat files?
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pdurbin sure. http://ikiwiki.info is backed by git and has search. you could make it private
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pdurbin for search ikiwiki uses http://xapian.org
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tantek pdurbin do you use ikiwiki?
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pdurbin tantek: yes, but my instance is not private: http://wiki.greptilian.com
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cuibonobo pdurbin: aha. so it needs to be indexed. fair enough. i'm actually between using flat files and then indexing with elasticsearch or using a database for both
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tantek pdurbin excellent! will add to wiki
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pdurbin cuibonobo: careful. don't say database around tantek or aaronpk ;)
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donpdonp the policially correct term is 'indexed binary file'
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cuibonobo pdurbin: haha! i've been lurking for a few days / reading people's sites and had gathered as much :)
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pdurbin solr can index from a database. I assume elasticsearch can too
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Loqi nice
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pdurbin tantek: cool. click on "freedom" at https://www.branchable.com when you get a chance
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pdurbin "Everyone should own and control their data. So when you make a web site on Branchable, we don't lock you in. You can use git to download the entire source code of your web site at any time, and move it elsewhere if you desire."
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cuibonobo i understand that flat files allow for greater portability, but being able to search them requires building an index (or outsourcing to google) and the link between the files and the index can be very fragile
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tantek.com edited /wiki-projects (+95) "add ikiwiki" (view diff)
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pdurbin oh cool, that quote is already at http://indiewebcamp.com/Branchable
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pdurbin cuibonobo: I don't recall setting up xapian with ikiwiki being too tough. it "just works"
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pdurbin these days (at work) I'm using solr
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aaron_pk flat file storage sounds cooler if you call it NoSQL
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cuibonobo pdurbin: well, i feel like there's a trade-off: search solutions that work very robustly with flat files generally can't do faceted search, i.e. only notes, stuff tagged with x
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aaron_pk elasticsearch can index whatever you want from flat files
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aaron_pk I opted for a regular MySQL index for my flat files tho
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aaron_pk see: http://indiewebcamp.com/p3k#Database
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pdurbin cuibonobo: solr does faceted search. and works with flat files and more with Tika: http://tika.apache.org/1.5/formats.html
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pdurbin aaron_pk: interesting. so you could switch your database-cache from mysql to elasticsearch or whatever
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cuibonobo pdurbin: sure, but the parser between the flat files and the index is the 'delicate' part i had mentioned before
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pdurbin sure. you'll want a way to re-index everything if need be. blow away the index and re-index it all
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aaron_pk pdurbin: yep. or in my case more likely postgres
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barnabywalters cuibonobo: why is it delicate? in my experience it’s the opposite, because if something goes wrong you can throw away the broken index and just rebuild everything
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pdurbin what barnabywalters said
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barnabywalters without having to touch actual data
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aaron_pk yeah I have a script that I used to build my index in the first place, and several times I've already tossed the DB out the window and rebuilt
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aaron_pk (mostly when I was developing my Post class which is responsible for writing the files and updating its index)
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cuibonobo well, i was actually looking to use mongodb as storage. so my process would be reversed: dump the database to flat files
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barnabywalters cuibonobo: ah, you might be confusing flat file storage with having a static site
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pdurbin it's a free country
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barnabywalters are you talking about storing your posts in mongodb and having a build step which produces HTML which you serve?
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barnabywalters Taproot now does venues: http://waterpigs.co.uk/places/
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cuibonobo barnabywalters: nope. in mongo, each entry is a 'document' that doesn't need a schema, so a flat file storage dumped from mongo would look very similar to the flat files you use for your own site
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aaron_pk barnabywalters++ for venues!
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Loqi barnabywalters has 48 karma
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aaron_pk barnabywalters: how did you pick the URL slug for venues? was hoping that would be documented on the /venues page
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barnabywalters aaron_pk: er, I just ASCIIfy the name of the venue
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cuibonobo barnabywalters: but yes, i was looking to store the posts in mongo and have my site be an app that consumes that data
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pdurbin cuibonobo: can you shove any flat file into mongo? does it have to be json or something?
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aaron_pk barnabywalters: what do you do about conflicts?
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barnabywalters cuibonobo: ah okay. Really the point of the whole storage debate is about the longevity of the *canonical* copy of the data
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barnabywalters aaron_pk: currently, nothing. In the future, probably adding the locality/country name to the end of the slug
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barnabywalters also planning on showing webmentions for the venues, so a checkin will be a note with a rel-venue (or something) to the venue URL
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aaron_pk ah ok. was hoping to steal some ideas from you on that :)
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barnabywalters and then other people can also check in to my venues
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cuibonobo pdurbin: it should be json, but other than that there's no schema per se. so your document could very easily be `{"document":"your data here"}`
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barnabywalters aaron_pk: my current thinking is: ASCIIfy the name, if that already exists add the locality and city, if that already exists add an incrementing number
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barnabywalters although maybe something more sophisticated like a geohash could be used
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barnabywalters s/locality and city/locality and country
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aaron_pk the human readable aspect of your current URLs is nice
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bret aaron_pk, barnabywalters, is there a DB like interface that queues actions on flat files and prevents concurrent access issues
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bret or like some kind of transactional interface
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barnabywalters bret: not that I know of, other than good ‘ol locks
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aaron_pk bret: I haven't encountered a situation where I would generate a concurrent access issue yet
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pdurbin cuibonobo: ok. thanks
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cuibonobo barnabywalters: hmm. the 'canonical' copy is something that i've also found confusing regarding the indieweb. this is digital data. there is literally no difference between the original and the copy besides the story in your mind
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bret meh locks... i wonder if it wold be worth it to have a single writer RCU type thingy over a file system.
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aaron_pk bret: a lot of my stuff is done in a queue so it's already serialized
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barnabywalters cuibonobo: there are huge, practical differences such as naming/addressing, access control, resolution, ease of backing up, ease of restoring from backups, etc
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barnabywalters but also the term canonical is used for a couple of different things
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cuibonobo yes, but the data itself is the same, which is why i take issue with 'canonical'
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barnabywalters cuibonobo: no it is not
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barnabywalters for example, my index doesn’t have all the data in the canonical copy
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barnabywalters only the bits which need indexing
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cuibonobo then can you call it a copy?
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bret aaron_pk: what what the queue you used again?
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barnabywalters it’s not a copy, it’s an index. perhaps we are talking about different things
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barnabywalters what example of copies of data are you imagining?
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aaron_pk bret: beanstalkd
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cuibonobo in my personal case, if i use mongodb for storage and each item has a unique id, i can dump the entire contents of the database to flat files as id001.txt, id002.txt, etc.
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cuibonobo and mongo handles the index for me, so i don't have to think about it
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barnabywalters cuibonobo: and then what are the text files used for?
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@withknown We're at the #reclaimyourdomain hackathon this weekend. #indieweb in education is an exciting idea! http://reclaimyourdomain.org/ (twitter.com/_/status/490542672856088576)
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cuibonobo barnabywalters: backup of a backup? porting to some other backend? i'm not sure! i was just trying to illustrate that there was no practical difference between what would be in my 'database' and what's in my 'file system'
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barnabywalters cuibonobo: there are huge practical differences like ease of backing up, ease of inspection, ease of searching
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barnabywalters these are significant things
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cuibonobo yes, but which is 'canonical'? that's the only thing that seems weird to me
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bret the thing you would never want to lose?
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barnabywalters the copy which is actively in use
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barnabywalters e.g. the copy which gets changed when you make an edit
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barnabywalters at that point that copy is the canonical, “true” representation of the content, and all the other, non-canonical copies are out-of-date backups or indexes
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tantek.com created /ikiwiki (+356) "stub with dfn, indieweb example, see also" (view diff)
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cuibonobo barnabywalters: ok. so in that sense "canonicalness" is the degree of "trueness" of the data.
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tantek.com edited /wiki-projects (+6) (view diff)
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cuibonobo there's a point where it's kind of blurry though, like if you post something that goes to a cache to be worked on before ending up in your store.
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tantek.com edited /ikiwiki (+45) "search xapian" (view diff)
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@NZN #indie Education #indieschool & #indieweb & #indietech communities are happening-->points toward new #Admin model #SovereignSourceAuthority (twitter.com/_/status/490547339464286209)
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tantek.com edited /Branchable (+4) "linky" (view diff)
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tantek barnabywalters: that's a great definition / expansion of canonical - could you use that to stub http://indiewebcamp.com/canonical ?
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greptilian.com edited /ikiwiki (+17) "/* See Also */ Branchable" (view diff)
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cuibonobo tantek: there's an error at the bottom of http://indiewebcamp.com/permashortcitation that I'm not sure how to fix. "Cite error: <ref> tags exist, but no <references/> tag was found"
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cuibonobo seems to be related to the block quotes
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tantek.com edited /permashortcitation (-32) "remove ref tags because of error" (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk created /canonical (+1296) "stubbed definition of canonical" (view diff)
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@benwerd Really enjoying meeting everyone and demoing Known at #reclaimyourdomainla! #reclaimyourdomain #indieweb #escapethesilos (twitter.com/_/status/490552801169129472)
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tantek and https://twitter.com/erinjo/status/490552899701702656
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@erinjo @benwerd Me too! (twitter.com/_/status/490552899701702656)
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@OYOink RT @NZN: #indie Education #indieschool & #indieweb & #indietech communities are happening-->points toward new #Admin model #SovereignSource… (twitter.com/_/status/490555313670881280)
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barnabywalters HASHTAG SOVEREIGN SOURCE
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cuibonobo ironic that the post that explains sovereign post authority is hosted on blogger :3
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cuibonobo *sovereign source authority
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tantek aaronpk: since you're into self-recording a lot of stuff - have you seen http://www.reporter-app.com/ ? (developed by Feltron - what he used for the latest Feltron.com annual report)
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@maxlath RT @benwerd: My #indieweb life: how my site gives me an awesome social media archive of everything I've ever written http://werd.io/2014/my-indieweb-life-how-my-site-gives-me-an-awesome (twitter.com/_/status/490562941109149696)
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tantek cuibonobo: yes that is ironic. heh.
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tantek.com edited /like (+31) "note IG uses ♥" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /like (+83) "add a heart as text "graphic" to the top" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /repost (+65) "add ♺ symbol as text graphic" (view diff)
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Loqi [@Addiply] Reading this @benwerd Very interesting.... See https://addiply.3scale.net Plug in local-mobile ads
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Loqi monetise news blog? http://werd.io/2014/my-indieweb-life-how-my-site-gives-me-an-awesome (http://twtr.io/ofk6_gd028)
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tantek.com edited /Falcon (+1013) "/* Working On */ webaction buttons in streams" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Falcon (+436) "/* Working On */ combine the two repost of tweets tasks, move improve reply-context support to second spot" (view diff)
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tantek ok that's enough of a braindump for now of things I've been meaning to get to
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tantek in particular since this past weekend's restyling efforts, I've been thinking a lot about in-stream web action buttons (only indieweb example I know of is adactio.com right-aligned links at the end of each post to favorite, retweet etc.)
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tantek captured some thoughts on adding in-stream web action buttons here: http://indiewebcamp.com/Falcon#webaction_buttons_in_streams
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tantek and now that I've written that down, time to go for a run to reflect on it to see if I want to change anything when I return (before coding)
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bret im blocked by not having a good posting interface...but I could add them for others
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tantek bret - exactly - I'm prioritizing what others see on my site over my own posting "interface"
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tantek and I'm not letting it block me
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tantek bbiab
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cuibonobo lol! still reading through the wiki. listing databases as an anti-pattern is a little absurd. oh boy.
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tantek does anyone else besides adactio show webaction buttons/links on their posts in their home page stream?
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tantek cuibonobo - happy that you're at least amused. :)
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cuibonobo indeed! :)
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pdurbin cuibonobo: told ya
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cuibonobo pdurbin: haha you sure did
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tantek hmm… I'm leaning towards use of "like" rather than the generic (but uncommon) "props", or the more strongly worded "favorite" (context: webactions verbs)
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KartikPrabhu still a bit confusing to me to use 'like' and 'favourite' to mean the same thing
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cuibonobo tantek: there's other services that name it like the icon, i.e. 'star', 'heart'
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tantek cuibonobo: really? could you provide specific examples? we've been trying to document them on the /like and /favorite pages
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tantek KartikPrabhu: what is the difference to you between like and favorite? (Note that no services use both)
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KartikPrabhu 'like' is me saying to the author 'hey I like this' v/s 'favourite' is marking it for myself... more like a bookmark
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KartikPrabhu tantek: seems to be documented here: http://indiewebcamp.com/favourite#Differences_From_Like
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cuibonobo KartikPrabhu: yeah i think the intention is important. for example, people that 'favorite' things on twitter as a reminder to read later
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KartikPrabhu cuibonobo: I think 'fav' on twitter is used in both ways... which is why these distinctions are becoming blurred and confusing
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tantek KartikPrabhu: agreed, fave is more ambiguous
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KartikPrabhu like vs bookmark is a good distinction I think
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tantek and ironically, "like" is more often used (people "like" things on FB/IG more than they Fave things on Twitter/FB)
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cuibonobo tantek: here's a good example of 'heart'-ing http://weheartit.com/
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cuibonobo if you look at their feeds, hovering over a post makes a giant heart appear, to mark it as a thing you like
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KartikPrabhu naming things after icons would make it more confusing... :P
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tantek going to categorize heart as an a variant of like
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cuibonobo KartikPrabhu: yeah i wouldn't advocate for that :)
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KartikPrabhu I have similar confusion about repost vs reshare. I realised that I don't want to 'repost' the entire post from somewhere else... but just reshare it my friends...
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tantek KartikPrabhu: share is meaningless
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tantek (in the context of these web UIs)
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KartikPrabhu oh!?
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tantek (and Android in particular)
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tantek yes
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KartikPrabhu you mean it is the same as just linking?
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tantek worse
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tantek they've diluted "share" into meaning "do something"
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tantek like you "share" with a printer to print something
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KartikPrabhu oh... I see. 'Share' as a word for the UI
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tantek "share" is now a joke of a term in any kind of web UI
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cuibonobo tantek: that's an interesting perspective. reminds me of this post https://bold.pixelapse.com/minming/share-the-icon-no-one-agrees-on
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GWG tantek: How do you feel about the word highlight then? I want to 'highlight' someone else's work?
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cuibonobo as in, nobody can agree on the icon because the term itself is meaningless
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tantek cuibonobo: as you said, the intent is important, and ironically, the use of "share" has come to mean all intentions, and thus none of them
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cuibonobo i agree!
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KartikPrabhu tantek: yes then... my intent is to not 'repost' but then what is the word for that... Just telling your friends, 'this is a good post. read it' ?
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KartikPrabhu example:https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/incremental-perfection
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tantek.com edited /like (+603) "Silo Examples, Variants, We Heart It, move previously to discussion" (view diff)
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cuibonobo just saw a blog-via-Evernote and died a little inside
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pdurbin cuibonobo: so are you still gonna build that Evernote killer?
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tantek cuibonobo: I've previously written about the different clusterings/intentions of various types of "sharing" and why "share" is now meaningless: http://tantek.com/2012/152/b1/citation-ui-focus-enabling-design#action-clusters
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tantek and of web actions in general: http://tantek.com/2011/220/b1/web-actions-a-new-building-block#web-action-motivations (though at this point I still had hope about "share" which I've since given up on)
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cuibonobo pdurbin: i don't want to kill evernote! i just want to make a thing for myself that works like Evernote but isn't tied to their format
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pdurbin is it an open format?
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tantek cuibonobo++
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Loqi cuibonobo has 2 karma
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pdurbin email killers never kill email anyway
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tantek cuibonobo: well said :) https://twitter.com/t/status/340522539061231617
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cuibonobo pdurbin: it's a kind of proprietary XML
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@t THIS: "... build stuff which kills your own Facebook usage before trying to kill FB." #indieweb http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/1480/ (ttk.me t4QG1) (twitter.com/_/status/340522539061231617)
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pdurbin oh. well at least it's a flat file. xml
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tantek quote from http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/1480/
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cuibonobo tantek: validation!!
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KartikPrabhu cuibonobo: I'm also interested in moving my notes from evernote to my site. Haven't quite figured out the private posts and log in bits yet
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cuibonobo KartikPrabhu: yeah. access control is tricky thing.
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tantek has never put any content into evernote
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pdurbin people swear by it
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KartikPrabhu people also swore by Orkut!
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pdurbin !
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cuibonobo i have a bunch of stuff in it. the primary draw for me is 1) just writing a note. no need for titles or anything else. 2) tagging. 3) search. by far the most important feature.
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pdurbin I've started using Google Keep a bit. It's nice.
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Loqi erinjo: bnvk left you a message 1 week, 5 days ago: yo, just testing out something
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pdurbin yesterday I found out it does OCR
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tantek cuibonobo: that's a very good summary
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cuibonobo right now i'm in an after-evernote phase where i'm dropping markdown files in a 2014 folder and using a timestamp as the title. i handle search through spotlight, but it's a little wonky
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benwerd waves from the Reclaim Your Domain hackathon at Pepperdine
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tantek hey erinjo benwerd - how's the weather in LA?
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KartikPrabhu cuibonobo: once you have a notes posting on your site, using markdown content should be straight forward, so that is a good first step.
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benwerd tantek: it's overcast, which is frankly disappointing
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benwerd I have a convertible for the weekend, which illustrates some kind of law or other
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KartikPrabhu the other day I tried to export my 'annotations' from Google Play Books and failed!
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tantek just updated his software on his site motivated by providing a better markup example to copy / paste into the wiki.
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tantek.com edited /webactions (+3302) "why, how, add explicit markup example for how to add webactions to your posts (hope that helps make more happen!), move some background at the top to a history section, been long enough. and prefer like over props" (view diff)
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tantek !tell barnabywalters not sure if it was you or not complaining about "props" but I now agree and have switched it all to "like" as the generic form, e.g. on http://indiewebcamp.com/webactions
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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tantek benwerd, ironically the sun is shining here in SF
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tantek cuibonobo: mind adding your summary of the primary draw for evernote to an evernote stub page? http://indiewebcamp.com/Evernote
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tantek KartikPrabhu: similarly, could you write something briefly about the problem of export of Google Play Books here? http://indiewebcamp.com/Google_Play_Books
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KartikPrabhu tantek: I will. have some more testing to do
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tantek (and perhaps link to it from http://indiewebcamp.com/Google )
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tantek intermediate caveat results are ok to document too
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cuibonobo tantek: sure thing
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tantek encourages others to help with testing / verifying
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KartikPrabhu sure... will get on it soon
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tantek thanks cuibonobo!
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tantek just changed the /webactions on his /notes from Favorite Retweet Reply to Like Repost Reply, e.g. bottom of: http://tantek.com/2014/175/t1/pdf14-why-need-indieweb-video-slides
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tantek going to see how that use of more generic terminology feels
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tantek is thinking about replacing the use of the Twitter images as well with emoji instead, e.g. from http://fsymbols.com/emoji/
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tantek cuibonobo: apparently I actually documented the rant against "share" a bit more thoroughly on the wiki, with a bit of debate too! http://indiewebcamp.com/share
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tantek.com edited /share (+250) "add Icons section with citation" (view diff)
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cuibonobo tantek: cool. good to know. the fact that the indiewebcamp wiki is actively edited and discussed on IRC is a major draw for me
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tantek using IRC and the wiki together like this has shown to be remarkably useful/productive.
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tantek (so much so that we have never needed, nor want, an email list)
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pdurbin tantek: but! the wiki is powered by a [**shudder**]... database!
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pdurbin ducks
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cuibonobo lol
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tantek pdurbin - indeed! and it used to depend on [**shudder**] OpenID! (Until we came up with the replacement - IndieAuth, and made it work)
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tantek perhaps we should replace MediaWiki with your suggestion of ikiwiki ;)
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tantek the process of using "old" (established/usable) tools until you've built better replacements is I believe a key part of bootstrapping
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pdurbin could do. then all the versioning could be in git. and anyone could clone it and have a local copy
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tantek yeah - that's a major appeal
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tantek eventually I get to "building wiki page support" for my own site: http://indiewebcamp.com/Falcon#Indie_Wiki but until then I don't really have a concrete suggestion to use one wiki software over another. :/
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tantek is seriously tempted to use the Rooster emoji when linking to POSSE tweet copies, e.g. like in mockup here: http://indiewebcamp.com/Falcon#webaction_buttons_in_streams
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tantek 🐓 View on Twitter
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tantek I mean, it's a bird, right? ;)
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cuibonobo ha!
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tantek I suppose it would only be fitting, especially since benwerd pioneered "chicken" posts. ;)
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benwerd highly approves
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KartikPrabhu tantek: are you sure you want to use those emoji things... not sure they show up in every browser and having a mystery square is not good UI.UX
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tantek KartikPrabhu: I suppose live testing will tell right? ;)
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tantek someone has to find out...
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KartikPrabhu cool! I of course recommend SVG icons! ref: https://kartikprabhu.com/article/inline-svg-icons
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benwerd Wait for it
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@benwerd 🐔🐔🐔🐔🐔🐔🐔🐔🐔🐔🐔 (🐔🐔) #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/490613388788396032)
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benwerd And indeed: I posted that in Firefox, but it's just empty squares for me in Chrome
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KartikPrabhu benwerd: shows up in FF for me but tantek'c mockup doesn't
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cuibonobo maybe you guys should make an indieweb font and host it on a cdn
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KartikPrabhu cuibonobo: no real need afaik lot of CC licensed icons out there: such as http://www.entypo.com/ which I use on my site
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KartikPrabhu doesn't seem to have a rooster though
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cuibonobo haha
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tantek KartikPrabhu: your post ate a *ton* of heap memory, likely due to the SVG. So SVG still seems like an impractical memory pig. Not going to touch it.
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tantek *viewing your post in a browser
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KartikPrabhu tantek: hmmm how do I diagnose that?
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KartikPrabhu strange since that post has no actual JS running on it except marginalia.js
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tantek KartikPrabhu: use of SVG causes all sorts of additional memory structures to be created for rendering etc.
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tantek benwerd was that an emoji note POSSEd to Twitter? Or a new chicken post variant?
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KartikPrabhu tantek: oh I see... did not know of that problem. in that case my indieweb post must be using monstrous amounts as all the illustrations are SVG too
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benwerd tantek: an emoji note, but I might upgrade my chicken plugin finally ;)
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pdurbin tantek: I can't see your emoji :( http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-07-19/line/1405805927
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tantek pdurbin which browser?
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pdurbin firefox and chrome
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KartikPrabhu tantek: how did you see the heap memory usage?
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tantek KartikPrabhu: "Activity Monitor" app
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KartikPrabhu ok I'll try to fix this if possible
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tantek pdurbin: which OS?
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pdurbin fedora 20
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jenmontes.com created /Evernote (+921) "Overview of Evernote" (view diff)
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tantek pdurbin - good to know. ok, so no rooster emoji in order to be nicer to Linux users.
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pdurbin tantek: should I go try in safari? my wife has an imac
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tantek pdurbin: likely a platform font issue
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tantek I bet it works in Safari on imac
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pdurbin no dice. oh well
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tantek really? WFM Safari 6.1.5 on OSX 10.7.5
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tantek all of the emoji here work on that Safari: http://indiewebcamp.com/Falcon#webaction_buttons_in_streams
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tantek do *any* of those emoji work on any browser on Fedora 20?
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pdurbin (back on linux) "like" and "repost" look fine but "reply" is unreadable
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tantek how about 🔁 and ↩
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bret tantek getting missing chars in windows 7
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tantek bret for which?
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bret ill get you a screen
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bret one sec
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tantek.com edited /Falcon (-3) "/* webaction buttons in streams */ use arrow reply emoji ↩" (view diff)
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pdurbin tantek: looking at http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-07-19/line/1405807819 the first is unreadable but the second is fine
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tantek ok good to know so now all three like repost reply should work for you pdurbin: http://indiewebcamp.com/Falcon#webaction_buttons_in_streams
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pdurbin yes. all better
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bret tantek http://imgur.com/Cdtj6M2
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pdurbin tantek: I can't read the icon next to this though: 🐓 View (Conversation) on Twitter
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tantek bret - that's just the one rooster then, that's fine
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bret ah ok
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bret wasnt sure
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tantek ok got it - no Rooster on Linux or Windows
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bret i like the mock up btw tantek++ :)
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tantek bret - from your screenshot though, the Like Repost and Reply emoji work fine
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bret other than fonts looking like crap on windoes, yes they work
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bret windows*
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tantek likes text mockups
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tantek searches for wikipedia bird unicode and finds http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony_punctuation
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tantek \(*)>
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cuibonobo 🐦
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tantek bret, pdurbin can you see that ^^^ 🐦🐦🐦
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pdurbin nope
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cuibonobo some platforms may not have anything defined for some unicode blocks
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tantek.com edited /Falcon (+99) "/* webaction buttons in streams */ note rooster, bird emoji not visible in Linux nor Windows 7" (view diff)
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cuibonobo which now makes me curious about unicode block adoption among platforms
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tantek or the platform may support the unicode blocks, but not have any default fonts for rendering those code points
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bret I saw \(*)> :)
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pdurbin bret: yeah, me too
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pdurbin was riveted
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tantek bret, I meant the 🐦 from cuibonobo
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tantek.com edited /Falcon (+115) "talk bubble also not visible on Linux (fedora 20), but is visible on windows" (view diff)
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bret er.mm wel this irc client does not see it let me check a different one
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bret nope
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tantek.com edited /Falcon (+291) "/* Working On */ so twitter will get a blue t instead" (view diff)
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benwerd Digital lead at a university pointing at a student's own website and domain: "we want this to be the future of the learning management system".
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kylewm seeing the same thing as Fedora 20 on Ubuntu 14.04, fwiw
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KartikPrabhu benwed: URL... ?
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tantek.com edited /Falcon (+43) "/* webaction buttons in streams */ a little font-family tweak" (view diff)
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tantek bret was it you that asked about why have a URL: [ … ] field / input / UI in notes?
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tantek when the URL is already in the address bar?
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tantek another reason: browser UIs where the address bar is not (easily) accessible, e.g. mobile, or kiosk mode etc., and not having to scan back up to the top of the window for it either.
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KartikPrabhu tantek: that was me
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tantek ah, thanks KartikPrabhu
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KartikPrabhu mobile browser UI is a good reason :)
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tantek.com edited /citation (+637) "start FAQ with Why a URL UI when address bar has it" (view diff)
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tantek KartikPrabhu: does this capture it sufficiently? http://indiewebcamp.com/citation#Why_a_URL_UI_when_address_bar_has_it
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KartikPrabhu tantek: isn't the 'not having to scroll' not relevant since on desktops the address bar is always present at the top, while in mobile you might have to scroll a little bit but the address is hidden per the first argument... So the second argument does not add anything really?
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tantek KartikPrabhu: I didn't say scroll
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KartikPrabhu well or 'scan back'
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KartikPrabhu in any case that captures the argument well
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bret tantek, errrmmm maybe, but not recently
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bret i like it. although most url fields designed for sharing I avoid since its usually a disgustingly long tracking url... definately not the case with your layout though :)
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bret i would say that the "share this url:..." pattern can be really great, but often misused/abused by darkpatternists
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tantek KartikPrabhu: the difference is that "scan" literally means what your eyes are doing, the muscle movement of your eyes scanning up - nothing do with with scrolling.
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tantek per: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_tracking
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tantek.com edited /citation (+44) "/* Why a URL UI when address bar has it */ link scan to specific meaning of eye-tracking" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu tantek: yeah fair enough
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@Innorama @Aflery The #MIT can help you too : http://innorama.fr/node/4257 - #openPDS #ownyourdata (twitter.com/_/status/490645760313409536)