#indiewebcamp 2014-07-20

2014-07-20 UTC
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mko !tell aaronpk Not sure if this was intentional, but a GET on your webmention endpoint no longer displays the informational page you had there before: http://aaronparecki.com/webmention
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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JonathanNeal Christina and I are thinking about possibly moving to Georgia (USA). Anyone from here live there or have lived there?
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cuibonobo JonathanNeal: i've been in Atlanta since 2007
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JonathanNeal cuibonobo: oh sweet, are there any IndieWeb meetups?
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cuibonobo not that i've heard! though i've been on the indieweb irc for a grand total of 3 days
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JonathanNeal Well, welcome! I’m born and raised in SoCal. Is there a startup scene in Atlanta that you know of?
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cuibonobo i think there is, but i'm not involved so i can't say for sure. i actually work for an animation company. i have the impression that georgia is business-friendly and atlanta in particular has a lot of young people (because of all the universities in town)
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mko I worked in the Atlanta startup scene briefly in 2008-2009.
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JonathanNeal cuibonobo: fun! mko: any warnings or praises?
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mko JonathanNeal: I thought Atlanta was a nice area to live in, but ATL isn't a hugely startup-focused region. Some of the better resources for startups (like coworking spaces and startup meetup sponsors) in that region left in 2011-2013. It's got a lot of great, smart people, though (and the talent pool at Georgia Tech is fantastic). The support structures for startups (primarily angel and venture funding) tend to be less evolved than
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mko those some of the bigger tech hubs. The support structures for larger tech corporations, on the other hand, is great in ATL.
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JonathanNeal mko: fascinating and detailed insight, thank you! We have family in Atlanta, and I’ve hoped to work for a startup again.
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mko There's definitely some startups there, but they're not as common as you would expect. Lots of small to medium sized businesses (15-200) people.
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cuibonobo ATL as a city is investing quite a bit of money into trying to be more 'hip', i.e. making downtown more attractive and walkable, establishing more public transportation options, creating incentives for people to move to the city, etc. Startup Atlanta was established recently as a result of those efforts: http://startupatlanta.org/
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cuibonobo so i think they're conscious that they need to do better and are taking steps to attract startups
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JonathanNeal Wow! This is extremely informative. I really appreciate this.
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JonathanNeal So, cuibonobo, mko, would you know a good way to see if someone like me might be wanted out there? Just showing up on Monster? A tweet?
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pdurbin has heard good things about that new aquarium
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cuibonobo JonathanNeal: you got me there! probably check with the Startup Atlanta people and see what they suggest.
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cuibonobo pdurbin: it's fantastic but unfortunately pretty expensive :s
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pdurbin bummer
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JonathanNeal cuibonobo: the one by World of Coke? I went there. It was nice.
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JonathanNeal And there was a fantastically cheesy dolphin show with an adult boy and his magic ship wand
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pdurbin world of coke?
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JonathanNeal yes, it’s an indie web drug haven ... or ... a sodapop headquarters and tourist destination.
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cuibonobo pdurbin: coca cola headquarters are here, so they've set up a self-aggrandizement museum :)
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pdurbin "This article appears to be written like an advertisement." -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_of_Coca-Cola
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cuibonobo wikipedia hits the nail on the head :D
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tantek Who's hacking on indieweb projects this weekend?
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rascul i'll be hacking on my site tomorrow
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rascul http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/H/hacker.html
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rascul [originally, someone who makes furniture with an axe]
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JonathanNeal tantek: i would be happy to hack this weekend.
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JonathanNeal anything in mind?
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tantek Nice rascul :)
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rascul likes axes
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tantek Especially when the plural of axis
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rascul you're an axis
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tantek JonathanNeal: Whats next on your itches for your personal site?
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tantek Or are you looking for suggestions?
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JonathanNeal Suggestions. I have felt so unmotivated.
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JonathanNeal Or discouraged? Can’t tell.
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rascul for me i gotta dive into low level git stuff to get the created and last updated times for a post
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rascul it's gonna be fun
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tantek Cool!
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rascul now all my posts are made from a git repo
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rascul soon i'm gonna start working on the dynamic part of my site
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rascul it's gonna be nifty
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tantek JonathanNeal: i was just reading http://www.jonathantneal.com/blog/understand-the-favicon/ and i want to know if i can just ignor ico files now.
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tantek Also trying to reconcile your article with what we have figured out in indiewebcamp.com/icon
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JonathanNeal They don’t seem in conflict.
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rascul <link rel="icon" href="/img/avatar.jpg" type="image/jpeg">
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rascul is for my favicon
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JonathanNeal Generally, use a 32x32 ico file for best results. If possible, make it /favicon.ico in your site’s root.
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tantek So we don't need favicon.ico anymore?
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rascul mine isn't optimized for icon though
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tantek JonathanNeal: Why? What browser still depends on favicon.ico?
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rascul anything modernish will read the link tag
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JonathanNeal In desktop browsing, I still see plenty of favicons, tantek, so I’m not sure what you mean.
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kylewm rascul: yours looked ok http://indiewebcamp.com/File:kylewm-android-firefox-icons-2014-07-19.png
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kylewm on my phone
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tantek Id rather only publish a png
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tantek With the link rel
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rascul is on a phone!
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rascul partys
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rascul tantek i didn't bother to convert from a shrunk jpg to a png
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tantek JonathanNeal: The specific file favicon.ico - why is it needed?
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rascul favicon.ico is what old browsers look for by default i think, and also is a fallback for when there's no rel=icon
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JonathanNeal That’s the icon that appears in your tab. IE11 is the first version of Internet Explorer to support the direct usage of .png and .gif file format favicons
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tantek So only for IE10 and below then?
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rascul http://www.w3.org/2005/10/howto-favicon
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tantek Rascul 2005 lol
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rascul that one is still relevant actually
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JonathanNeal tantek: yes, and if you want to omit the link tag.
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rascul if you don't want the link tag, you have to use favicon.ico i think
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JonathanNeal precisely
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tantek Using the link tag is better since it doesnt depend on a hardcoded url
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tantek Er path
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rascul indeed
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rascul seed the method 1 (preferred) of my w3 link :)
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JonathanNeal Also, I use http://www.xiconeditor.com/ to generate ico files.
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tantek So rel=icon is enough? We don't need to say rel="shortcut icon" ?
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rascul correct
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rascul you'll still get hits for /favicon.ico though
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rascul there's nothing you can do to prevent that
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tantek Sounds like we need to update /icon
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rascul but i seem to think that if you don't have a /favicon.ico then you can symlink it to /img/icon.png or so
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tantek Perhaps we can redirect hits for /favicon.ico ?
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JonathanNeal just icon will also cut out ie≤10
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rascul there might also be a mime type issue with .ico
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rascul if it's not an actual .ico i mean
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JonathanNeal Once IE12 is out, anyone following “last two” browser support will be able to drop rel="shortcut icon" and use rel="icon" exclusively.
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tantek Could still redirect it to some other common .ico hosted somewhere
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JonathanNeal tantek: i don’t know what happens when you redirect favicon.ico requests sans <link>
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tantek is tempted to put up a "digging guy" favicon.ico just to out the people still using old IE.
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tantek So when people ask, why do you have a digging guy icon? They reveal themselves.
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tantek JonathanNeal: Know a good site for a classic Web 1.0 digging guy favicon.ico?
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JonathanNeal Great question. He would not be animated.
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rascul animated digging guys are the best
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tantek JonathanNeal: I thought old ico files supported animation in some browsers?
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bret lol
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bret shaming old ie users
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JonathanNeal no, but some browsers let you rapidly change the favicon, eg http://mitchmurder.com/ a subtle effect but the floppy disk favicon is rotating.
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tantek What should the icon be of a post permalink? Same as your homepage? Or something else?
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JonathanNeal tantek: to be clear, you mean this person? http://codepen.io/joshnh/full/ohbHl/
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tantek JonathanNeal: Yes! Can we get a favicon.ico of that guy? Animated would be great.
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JonathanNeal IE does not support animated favicons.
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rascul tantek you could conceivably have page specific favicons
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rascul although i wonder if you'll have trouble with browser cache
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rascul not sure if favicon is cached per page or per (sub)domain
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rascul but i do know it's cached somewhere, somehow
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tantek another instance of the classic digging guy: http://www.markvigeant.com/imgs/construction.gif
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tantek http://www.11points.com/images/animatedgifs/underconstruction.gif
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JonathanNeal okay tantek, kids needed bathtime, but now https://gist.githubusercontent.com/jonathantneal/508748bf7e9cf9feb1ed/raw/db3a8866476a6054850c51c14bc57e3c9e945215/README.md
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JonathanNeal While GitHub seems to take issue with that, if you paste that RAW into most any MD preview tool (like http://github-markup.dfilimonov.com/) the images will show.
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tantek very nice JonathanNeal
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JonathanNeal I just recrafted it as 16x16 and 32x32 from the 38x38 source.
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tantek could you upload the .ico files directly to the indiewebcamp wiki?
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JonathanNeal Sure thing. Anywhere in particular?
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/Special:Upload
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JonathanNeal k, hold on, dad duty
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tantek I suppose just pick some reasonable naming convention for the different resolutions, but stick with the .ico suffix
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tantek np
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JonathanNeal I love when Amelia walks up to me with a cup and says “Ask Daddy”. That’s a 302 from Mom.
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JonathanNeal Oh no, I can’t login, something is up with GitHub, I guess.
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tantek did you try rescanning your indieauth?
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tantek just updated his site so his permalinks have the same rel=icon as his homepage
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JonathanNeal I ran it twice, I’ll click rescan this time. Same error.
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JonathanNeal Not a very informative error: “An unknown error occurred with this provider.”
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tantek JonathanNeal: that's not good (error message) at all. drat.
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JonathanNeal Is there an IndieAuth protocol that runs from the site itself? That would seem more Indie to me, anyway, for my site to tell you that I am logged in, whereas this is a bit more two-step auth. I’m sure this has been discussed to death, so sorry if I am being naive.
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tantek JonathanNeal: no problem at all. yes there is a delegated indieauth protocol to set that up
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tantek I believe only cweiske has done so however, partially because there aren't many clients of it yet, except ownyourgram
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tantek oh goodness, this wins: http://www.textfiles.com/underconstruction/
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JonathanNeal So, the definitive icon was shovel up.
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JonathanNeal Goodness, all the work time invested only to say “i haven’t finished”.
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JonathanNeal work time / time people
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tantek an excellent example of procastination!
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rascul who, me?
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JonathanNeal tantek: what are the security concerns or requirements needed to be met by a self hosted authentication?
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tantek JonathanNeal: now you're definitely out of my area of expertise. I think either aaronpk or cweiske would be able to walk you through that. Or maybe bear.
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JonathanNeal ARISE!
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JonathanNeal KartikPrabhu: you around this evening?
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tantek.com edited /icon (+65) "rel value shortcut is unnecessary, update tantek markup in use, cite 2005 era w3c doc" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /icon (+2) "/* Jeremy Keith */ update his markup from adactio.com as of today" (view diff)
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tantek interesting, it looks like iOS7 fixed the bug in iOS6 and earlier where they required the rel=apple-touch-icon separate from the other rel values
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tantek strange, when I try the same markup on my site it doesn't seem to work
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GWG Good morning
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tantek good morning :)
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GWG How are you tantek?
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tantek doing ok. digging into the latest on icons
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GWG I feel like I am getting closer to completing my design project
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JonathanNeal tantek: is my article on the subject out of date?
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tantek JonathanNeal: could be - according to adactio's markup
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JonathanNeal Oh, well, I’d be interested to know if that markup is right. I would think it is now, as “shortcut” is a legacy rel and image/ico is a hypothetical mime type.
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JonathanNeal think it is NOT… wow, sorry.
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GWG How is this looking, by the way?
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GWG http://tiny.n9n.us/
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tantek JonathanNeal: adactio was able to combine "rel" and the "apple-touch-icon" rels in a single <link>
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tantek I tried that and it didn't work, but I have a .jpg and he has a .png
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tantek maybe that makes a difference as https://developer.apple.com/library/ios/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/MobileHIG/IconMatrix.html says "For all images and icons, the PNG format is recommended. "
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tantek GWG tiny.n9n.us is looking good! I like all the reply-context variants
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GWG tantek: I'm looking to finish this up enough to deploy it over at my main site.
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GWG I've been making it flexible enough to be changed easily.
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GWG Because I often want to mix it up.
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GWG For example, if you refresh, there is a version of the same theme styled to look like the current one on my live site.
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kylewm GWG: do you happen to know if bridgy publish can publish twitter likes?
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GWG I keep wondering if it is a wrong approach to spend so much time making it so I can change it more often
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GWG kylewm: I've never tried that.
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GWG kylewm: Not sure
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kylewm looks like yes
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kylewm I just finished a first pass of posse-post-discovery for Bridgy Publish, it's neat!
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kylewm The idea is, if you reply to another indieweb post, and then use Bridgy Publish to POSSE it, it should find and reply to the appropriate silo post
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GWG kylewm: I'll be looking at that in the future.
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GWG It's on my list.
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kylewm GWG: I implemented it on my site a while ago ... it all happens behind the scenes so you never quite know if it's going to work but when it does it seems like magic :)
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GWG kylewm: Well, I went to pfefferle about supporting responses from Bridgy in his webmention plugin. He added a filter to allow anyone to add the code, but I back burnered it. snarfed just recently was working on it
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kylewm is curious but scared of wordpress
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GWG Why scared?
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kylewm I thought pfefferle's plugin supported responses from Bridgy long ago?
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GWG kylewm: After petermolnar's post on what he uses, I meant to write up mine.
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kylewm you should! someone was asking about /Wordpress#POSSE recently
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GWG kylewm: Bridgy sends the URL in a response to a publish request. Wordpress Webmention didn't support capturing that response.
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Loqi definitely
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snarfed GWG kylewm: …but it does now
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kylewm gotcha, oh that's awesome
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GWG snarfed: You got that finished?
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snarfed GWG: pfefferle added the hook to the webmention plugin a while back
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snarfed i cc'ed you on my PR that adds rel-syndication links for bridgy publish posses a couple days ago
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tantek darn it I figured out why adactio's "markup" is working for iOS - it's not the markup at all
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GWG I must have missed it. Will check the PR list for webmentions
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snarfed GWG: https://github.com/jihaisse/wordpress-syndication/pull/3
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tantek it's the presence of a "well known file path"
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tantek http://adactio.com/apple-touch-icon.png
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GWG snarfed: Oh, that one.
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tantek basically, if you put a file there, iOS will find it, whether or not you link to it via <link> tag
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GWG snarfed: I thought you meant one in the webmention plugin itself
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GWG snarfed: I did see that.
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snarfed GWG: yup. like i said, pfefferle added the response hook to the webmention plugin a while back. i think that's as much as we'd reasonably expect from it
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GWG snarfed: Yes, I was involved in that.
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snarfed GWG: thanks!
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GWG snarfed: I have a pull request for him to add functions to webmention to count the number of webmentions.
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GWG snarfed: I also had suggested something similar to count the number of 'likes', 'mentions' etc in semantic-linkbacks
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snarfed got it
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kylewm snarfed: GWG: so will you be able to ping bridgy publish without embedded <a href="brid.gy/publish/twitter"></a> ?
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GWG I've been trying to move functions upstream
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snarfed kylewm: ah, no, that's a separate feature request. you mean, something like a dedicated brigy publish plugin? definitely not an itch for me personally
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GWG snarfed: It is one for me. But it wouldn't be more than a checkbox to add the publish link into a post.
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snarfed GWG: understood. go for it!
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kylewm does publish actually check for the backlink?
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tantek.com edited /icon (+240) "/* Jeremy Keith */ note Jeremy's use of a well-known location for his iOS icon" (view diff)
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GWG snarfed: I know you hate UI
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snarfed kylewm: no
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GWG snarfed: Useful to know
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JonathanNeal this is the kind of self hosted authentication im looking for http://i.imgur.com/LfyisDg.png
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GWG kylewm: Why does Wordpress scare you exactly?
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kylewm GWG: wordpress doesn't so much as wordpress jargon :P (i.e. i wasn't sure i'd be able to understand your answer)
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kylewm JonathanNeal: I grew up in an atlanta suburb and went to GATech, if you need to know what it was like pre-2005 for some reason :)
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GWG kylewm: Wordpress allows for filter hooks and action hooks. They allow plugins to modify output or run functions at specific points. Pfefferle added one to support Bridgy's response code
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kylewm GWG: makes sense
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GWG kylewm: I've been starting to think that way...where could I add hooks to support future functionality?
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tantek.com edited /icon (+373) "add Legacy Well Known Paths section with documentation of /favicon.ico and /apple-touch-icon.png" (view diff)
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kylewm GWG: definitely worth keeping future expansion in mind, but in balance with http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?YouArentGonnaNeedIt
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JonathanNeal kylewm: thanks, if it is in any way striking, i would consider it useful.
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JonathanNeal tantek: does my authentication flow chart a few posts up seem reasonable?
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GWG kylewm: I've been very specific in my additions. And I've fiddled to try and get a good foundation.
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GWG kylewm: I found the way I designed the current theme that runs my site, it was a bit hacky. I built all these features, and then ripped them out into plugins. So, I am going modular.
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kylewm coolio
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GWG And I keep breaking things into smaller pieces.
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tantek.com edited /icon (-2) "/* Jeremy Keith */ a" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /icon (+149) "/* Tantek */" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /icon (+367) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ note some more use of "well known" paths" (view diff)
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tantek JonathanNeal: re: authentication flow chart - again, beyond my level of expertise - would have to ask aaronpk, bear, or cweiske.
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JonathanNeal AAARRRIIISSEE
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JonathanNeal knows that isn’t going to work this time either
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salanto1 Known is pretty cool
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Loqi [mention] http://home.tylergillies.club/2014/ill-try-to-check-it-out linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-05-21-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] http://home.tylergillies.club/2014/ill-try-to-make-it-i-have-family-in-town linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-07-30-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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@fusion_test RT @t: just informed my manager of @chloeweil's passing - I barely held it together. He'd met her @IndieWebCamp NYC in April. (ttk.me t4X91) (twitter.com/_/status/490790436395421696)
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@fusion_test RT @t: going to Homebrew Website Club SF 18:30 tonight but ~19:15+eats&drinks http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-07-16-homebrew-website-club & http://www.facebook.com/events/1530172017206158 (ttk.me t4X71) (twitter.com/_/status/490790438173818880)
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@fusion_test RT @t: shocked & numb from losing @chloeweil. saw her 11 days ago @IndieWebCamp http://indiewebcamp.com/2014#East_Photos http://indiewebcamp.com/images/9/90/indiewebcamp_nyc2014.JPG (ttk.me t4X12) (twitter.com/_/status/490790440015122432)
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@fusion_test RT @t: Awesome work @adactio with shipping #indieweb photo notes including POSSE of images to Twitter! http://adactio.com/notes/6978 (ttk.me t4X02) (twitter.com/_/status/490790444247175169)
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@fusion_test RT @t: Inspiring week+ #IndieWebCamp PDX/NYC/Berlin & #IndieTech Brighton! What will you create & ship on your own site next? (ttk.me t4X01) (twitter.com/_/status/490790446365278208)
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@fusion_test RT @t: Thanks @mrflix for figuring out CSS for an #indieweb People Focused Mobile Communication! Screenshot & source: http://tantek.com/2014/180/t2/css-indieweb-people-focused-communication (twitter.com/_/status/490790452304424960)
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@fusion_test RT @t: IndieWebCamp 2014 — Thoughts Before The Gathering: http://tantek.com/2014/179/b1/indiewebcamp-thoughts-before-gathering (twitter.com/_/status/490790455676653568)
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@fusion_test RT @t: made it to JFK and en route to Manhattan for pre #IndieWebCamp gatherings! blogging some thoughts on the ride over. (ttk.me t4Wo1) (twitter.com/_/status/490790457429868545)
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@fusion_test RT @t: #IndieWeb talks this week so-far: #osb14: @aaronpk #IndieAuth @caseorganic Silo Labyrinths #io14: @kevinmarks Ignite (ttk.me t4Wn2) (twitter.com/_/status/490790459216637952)
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@fusion_test RT @t: #PDF14 talk "Why We Need the #IndieWeb" 13 minute video posted: https://www.youtube.com/ slides: http://tantek.com/presentations/2014/06/indieweb/ (ttk.me t4Wk1) (twitter.com/_/status/490790463306092544)
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@fusion_test RT @t: #IndieWebCamp 2014 next weekend PDX NYC & now BERLIN thanks to 2011 camper @brennannovak! RSVP: http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/Guest_List#Farther_East (ttk.me t4Wh3) (twitter.com/_/status/490790468456689664)
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@fusion_test RT @t: @madradavid nice #indieweb site: http://madradavid.com looking forward to seeing what you build this weekend! (ttk.me t4Wh2) (twitter.com/_/status/490790470482538498)
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@fusion_test RT @t: @KevinMarks @Case it takes a village to grow an ecosystem. A village of independents to create an #indieweb ecosystem. (ttk.me t4Wh1) (twitter.com/_/status/490790476413272064)
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salanto1 holy edits batman
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/repost/twitter/t/487370638374363136/490790440015122432 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014#East_Photos (webmention)
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salanto1 Looks like an arabic spam bot
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/repost/twitter/t/489560858943442944/490790438173818880 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-07-16-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/repost/twitter/t/480530061326442496/490790468456689664 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/Guest_List#Farther_East (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] http://home.tylergillies.club linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-07-30-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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salanto1 http://home.tylergillies.club/2014/monday-gmt
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@yatil @RobLen @hzirl @mikeemesser @Motweet Von einem Silo ins nächste. Da warte ich lieber auf eine IndieWeb alternative :-) (twitter.com/_/status/490818622236135424)
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Loqi [mention] https://brennannovak.com/notes/500 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com (webmention)
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bnvk heya rschulman I didn't know you were chillin in here too :)
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Loqi [mention] https://brennannovak.com/notes/502 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com (webmention)
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bnvk !tell aaronpk see that last webmention of mine? Does Loqi interpret #IndieWeb tag as a link to IWC.com ?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi barnabywalters: tantek left you a message on 7/19 at 2:19pm: not sure if it was you or not complaining about "props" but I now agree and have switched it all to "like" as the generic form, e.g. on http://indiewebcamp.com/webactions
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tantek !spammer fusion_test
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Loqi Got it! There are now 13 spammers blacklisted
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tantek good morning #indiewebcamp!
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pdurbin justice is swift
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tantek "test" accounts should be private by default.
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pdurbin yeah
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tantek barnabywalters: check out the updates to http://indiewebcamp.com/webactions and let me know what you think
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tantek tried to make it much more quick explanation + here's what you should do and why.
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tantek move the history stuff down to the end
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barnabywalters tantek: excellent work, this format is much clearer
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tantek barnabywalters: when did you add a composite stream to your home page?
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tantek you should add yourself to http://indiewebcamp.com/composite_stream#IndieWeb_Examples :)
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Loqi yea
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barnabywalters good point! Can’t remember when that was but git knows
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JonathanNeal Hello!
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pdurbin JonathanNeal: what's new?
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tantek good morning JonathanNeal!
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tantek also going to take this opportunity to mention #indiechat :)
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JonathanNeal pdurbin: Resuming work on the indie auth proposal.
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@jmenglund03 #indieweb setup progress: was able to successfully log into the http://indiewebcamp.com/ wiki. #smallsteps (twitter.com/_/status/490907211145555968)
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JonathanNeal Not sure what to call it, actually.
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pdurbin JonathanNeal: ah, so you came up with http://i.imgur.com/LfyisDg.png
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pdurbin JonathanNeal: are you reinventing SAML or OAuth?
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pdurbin tantek: #indiechat? what's that?
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tantek pdurbin it's for offtopic watercooler backchannel :)
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JonathanNeal pdurbin, no no, not reinventing, that sounds too creative. More like copying and crafting for my specific use case.
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pdurbin tantek: oh. is it also logged?
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tantek it is not
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barnabywalters what happens in #indiechat stays in #indiechat
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tantek well not officially - but of course anyone there likely has personal logs
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pdurbin I'll pass
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pdurbin JonathanNeal: ok. just curious :)
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tantek pdurbin, understandable.
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pdurbin must be where you all talk about us ;)
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tantek pdurbin honestly haven't seen much (if any?) chatter about people not actually in the room (with notable recent exception chats about Chloe), but then maybe it happens when I'm not there.
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pdurbin JonathanNeal: I feel like anyhing auth quickly spins out of control. you see oauth1 people distancing themselves from oauth2 because it got too complicated
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pdurbin tantek: I won't lose any sleep over it ;)
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tantek indeed
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JonathanNeal pdurbin: i’m looking for a system to manage this end result http://i.imgur.com/fw2A40i.png
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pdurbin JonathanNeal: I'm actually helping design pluggable auth at work. I'll ping you in #dataverse about it next week probably
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JonathanNeal and then I wasn’t able ot login to indiewebcamp because there was an issue with GitHub. I was double motivated.
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pdurbin JonathanNeal: you're just using http://www.gliffy.com as an example, right? or do you have something to do with that service?
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JonathanNeal pdurbin: i googled “free flow chart” in desperation
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pdurbin ok
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JonathanNeal And, coincidentally, saw the thing I was attempting to describe. After I took that screenshot, I disagreed with some of those terms, and signed up with my email in order to prevent my contacts from being accessed.
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aaron_pk JonathanNeal: that's what "scope" is for in OAuth terminology
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pdurbin if only more people did that. I feel like Facebook and Google have everyone's address book
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tantek regarding auth and delegated login, stumbled across this blog post recently: http://blog.leahculver.com/2012/02/log-in-or-sign-up-with-github.html
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tantek had never before seen a site UI with login with github or twitter but NOT fb
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kylewm aaron_pk: do you have stats on which accounts people use to sign in to indieauth.com?
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aaron_pk yeah
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kylewm aaron_pk: just curious if you had the same experience as that article (github most popular)
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bretolius aaron_pk does this syndicate-to filed in micropub desinged to take more than one cvs value?
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bretolius like category
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bretolius wow english
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bretolius is the syndicate-to field*
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bretolius cvs = csv*
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/jmenglund03/490907211145555968/11628 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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@kid_OYO Maker Education for Personal Social Change http://www.moxytongue.com/2013/12/a-makers-education-for-social-change.html #indietech #indieweb #indieschool Does your child have access yet?#MakerEd (twitter.com/_/status/490936963164168192)
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JonathanNeal pdurbin: you know a thing or three about auth, I take it?
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mko !tell aaron_pk FYI: pin13.net seems to not be able to parse h-entry when it's on <article> -- Seems to be a relatively common problem with parsers, as glennjones' microformat-node has the same problem
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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KartikPrabhu mko: example? i want to check mf2py?...
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mko KartikPrabhu: use the example h-entry markup from http://microformats.org/wiki/h-entry
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mko I thought I was going nuts.
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mko I'm guessing it has something to do with the server-side DOM parsers not knowing what html5 elements are.
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KartikPrabhu mko: works fine on mf2py
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mko But as soon as I changed the root element from <article> to <div> it suddenly worked.
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mko Good. I'm not sure where to file tickets for this issue even because I don't know what parsers people use.
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mko Adding it to my list of "post-launch documentation tasks"
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benwerd Good afternoon IndieWebbers: are there many of you in Washington DC?
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benwerd We're thinking about a DC IndieWebCamp
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GWG benwerd: I'm scheduled down there next month
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GWG benwerd: And I have an Uncle near DCA, so I could hop down for a weekend
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benwerd Cool. Getting some serious interest from folks at the event I'm at this weekend.
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GWG What event/
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benwerd Reclaim Your Domain: http://reclaimyourdomain.org
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benwerd Essentially IndieWebCamp for edtech
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GWG benwerd: You attend a lot of Ed Tech stuff?
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benwerd GWG: I used to when I was working on Elgg. Seeing a lot of interest in Known from education, so I'm coming back into the space, which is exciting for me.
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GWG I have a friend in that at Purdue. I was trying to explain Indieweb to them. They seemed interested
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benwerd Here's a post about POSSE in edu that has got a lot of people interested: http://opencontent.org/blog/archives/3393
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GWG benwerd: When would this IWC DC be?
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benwerd GWG: TBD
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GWG benwerd: I figured. Just wondering if this was...summer, fall, winter, spring...
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benwerd GWG: potentially fall, although we're running out of time, so I can imagine it being winter.
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benwerd Or spring.
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benwerd There's an openEd conference in DC in mid-November, and there might be a chance of tacking it onto the end of that - but it's the week before thanksgiving, which may affect how feasible that is
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GWG benwerd: I have free lodging, and NYC is only a few hours away...so if I'm available, I'm in.
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benwerd awesome
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GWG And bear is in Philly, so I'd bet he'd probably try to come down as it is about as convenient
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bear @benwerd yep, count me in for possible IWC DC action
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GWG bear: I guessed correctly.
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bear :)
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salanto benwerd: I sent a pull request to add google+ snippet content to post type, not sure if it should be in mainline or a separate plugin. The only thing I changed in the UI is an optional post image url
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benwerd salanto: I merged it! Thanks for the submission - I think it's a great addition.
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kylewm mko: pin13 uses php-mf2 -- https://github.com/indieweb/php-mf2/issues
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benwerd bear: awesome
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kylewm mko: but it does seem to handle <article class="h-entry"> on my homepage...
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salanto http://note.io/1mu3Klc
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salanto Anyone know a good search engine for stock photos for blog articles?
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kylewm salanto: I like Flickr search for creative commons licensed photos
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KartikPrabhu mko kylewm: not a php-mf2 problem: http://waterpigs.co.uk/php-mf2/? works just fine
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salanto benwerd: Sorry. I broke the html in that last pull updated request with fixed commit
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salanto kylewm: thanks
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pdurbin JonathanNeal: not so much but I'm learning :)
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salanto Anyone know how to open a repl in php that loads your site?
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Jenny_ basic question here...i installed the sempress theme and semantic-linkbacks & webmention plug-ins. do all three of those take the place of using h-ref, h-card, etc on posts and throughout the site?
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GWG Jenny_: I use Wordpress. The Sempress theme does do the markup, but it doesn't do everything.
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GWG Jenny_: What is the site?
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Jenny_ GWG: jenniferenglund.net
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GWG A good start
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GWG I'd close the comments on the front page though.
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GWG But, Sempress will make your site marked up with the mf2 formats.
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Jenny_ GWG: thx for the feedback. just installed the new theme and am trying to figure out the best display options.
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GWG Jenny_: You are using a page for the front page. There should be a setting on that page to disable commnts.
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Jenny_ GWG: so it sounds like using the h-ref and h-entry is still something i will need to do.
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GWG Jenny_: Anything we can do? I think I'm the only Wordpress user here right now, but there are several of us in the community. General ideas...you have more of a choice.
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GWG href is a link
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GWG Sempress uses h-entry.
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GWG You may be thinking h-card, which Sempress doesn't mark up for you
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Jenny_ GWG: yep, h-card it is.
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Jenny_ GWG: that was pretty much it for now, in terms of help. just wanted to see if my understanding of the back-end info for WP was correct. Will keep modifying. Thx!
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GWG Jenny_: Somewhere in my list of ideas was to do an h-card widget and shortcode.
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GWG THat would probably help.
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GWG I haven't gotten to it yet though
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GWG Jenny_: If you need anything, feel free to ask. I keep trying to encourage Wordpress users. I know a lot of people here use other things.
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Jenny_ GWG: thank you - I will probably have more questions as I go along. Having other WP users' sites on the wiki as examples is helpful in thinking through how to lay out our own sites.
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GWG Jenny_: I do the same thing.
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KartikPrabhu !tell snarfed: did bridgy recently switch over to https ?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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gRegor` Hey barnabywalters, I'm working on that mf2 test suite. I've got it working, I think, but i have some related questions.
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KartikPrabhu should really figure out SNI stuff on py2!
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JonathanNeal aaronpk: is there a auth library out there that currently provides this functionality? http://i.imgur.com/1FGUIoP.png
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gRegor` barnabywalters: I think the classic root conversion needs 'adr' => 'h-adr'. I added that and one of the tests worked (one which had adr as the root, no hcard.
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JonathanNeal and by “allowances” I mean something like what this grants a domain: http://i.imgur.com/fw2A40i.png
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gRegor` But then I think the h-adr properties need to be converted, too. I'm not sure if that means another array key in $classicPropertyMap, or somehow mapping those properties to the ones in hcard.
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gRegor` e.g. vcard => street-address maps to p-street-address already.
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KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal: I am sure this can be done using IndieAuth's authentication flow if you have a token_endpoint on your own domain... currently my token_endpoint is at https://tokens.indieauth.com/
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gRegor` I suspect it will be easiest if I submit the PR for the test suite, then we can work on fixing/debugging php-mf2. Right now, 83/119 fail. :)
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gRegor` KartikPrabhu: I think bridgy has been https for a while. Do you mean on the individual wm it sends?
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KartikPrabhu yeah
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KartikPrabhu I am getting some SNI error on the individual mention pages it generates
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gRegor` Ah. hm
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JonathanNeal KartikPrabhu: thanks for that link.
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KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal: a good first step is to take either https://quill.p3k.io/ or http://ownyourgram.com/ for a spin and see how they work with Twitter etc... then replace the token_endpoint with your own self-hosted one
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bear JonathanNeal - see http://indiewebcamp.com/auth-brainstorming
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pdurbin interesting
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bear KartikPrabhu - i'm confused by why you would worry about SNI with python 2.* ?
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KartikPrabhu bear: I am getting some SSL errors when checking for webmention stuff
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bear ah - the other side is using https without sni ?
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KartikPrabhu unknown... this is with bridgy so I'll have to wait for snarfed
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bear k
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bear using python requests with python 2.* requires some import magic for it to support SNI
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KartikPrabhu yeah i seem to recall that. but for some reason pyOpenSSL does not want to install on my machine
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bear ah
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KartikPrabhu also this seems to be a problem only when I use my webmention form! which is weird
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bear the bug I'm reading says something about urllib3
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KartikPrabhu for instance: https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/backfeed-missing got the reply through bridgy... but sending the same bridgy URL through my form gives a 500!
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KartikPrabhu blergh
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bear ouch
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bear I wonder if this is because of the environment bridgy is running under
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bear i.e. google service is making a proxy call that doesn't grok sni and then returns the 500 to you
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KartikPrabhu no the 500 is from my side somehow
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salanto how do i find my webmention endpoint on my site?
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bear salanto - see http://indiewebcamp.com/auth-brainstorming
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bear doh!
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bear salanto - see http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention#endpoint_discovery
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salanto Thanks
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salanto bear++
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Loqi bear has 13 karma
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bear the part "How To Test Webmentions" shows a curl command that you can use to discover any rel=webmention links
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Loqi snarfed: KartikPrabhu left you a message 1 hour, 18 minutes ago: did bridgy recently switch over to https ?
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: it's always been https
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snarfed http://brid.gy/about#ssl
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: I am getting some SSL error when trying to send bridgy urls through my webmention form
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snarfed read that faq
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snarfed your client probably doesn't support sni. try the brid-gy.appspot.com domain instead
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KartikPrabhu but it worked when bridgy sent it automatically
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snarfed yup. it uses the appspot domain. details in the faq
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KartikPrabhu oh so bridgy itself uses the appspot domain
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snarfed for webmention source urls, yes, for this reason
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snarfed sorry for the trouble!
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KartikPrabhu aah understood
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bear the joys of being a proxy for both directions :/
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snarfed bear: yup, and of compatibility
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KartikPrabhu grrrr py2
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snarfed oh i was thinking ssl compat, but that too
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snarfed py2 is still what mostly everyone uses, for better or worse
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bear wait - is py2 == python 2.*
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snarfed yes
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bear python requests for 2.* with urllib3/pyopenssl fully supports SNI I thought
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snarfed bear: probably! let me redirect you to KartikPrabhu :P
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bear LOL :P
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KartikPrabhu bear: pyopenssl does not install on my system with some cryptic error
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bear pyOpenSSL, ndg-httpsclient and pyasn1
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bear that's what I use - it also requires a very fresh OpenSSL install
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bear can you pastebin the error?
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KartikPrabhu bear: in a few minutes
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bear k
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JonathanNeal thanks KartikPrabhu, bear.
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KartikPrabhu bear: errr now it worked on my local machine
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bear doh!
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KartikPrabhu is just using requests with verify=True sufficient to confirm that SNI works?
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bear if you point it to a site with multiple domains + certs - yes
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snarfed if it doesn't support sni, won't even verify=False fail?
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KartikPrabhu trying the brid.gy url which did give me an erorr on my live site
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: yes
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bear well, it could pass with verified == false because matching hostnames is part of the verify)
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gRegor` When parsing mf2, CRLF should be stripped in the p-name, correct?
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bear and you may get lucky if the default host is the same as what the cert is returning
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KartikPrabhu ok now to do installation on SNI stuff on my server
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bear :)
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snarfed bear: got it. verify=False will fail for brid.gy then, but i see how it will sometimes succeed elsewhere
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gRegor` Re: http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing#parsing_for_implied_properties "no explicit 'name' property":
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gRegor` "else use the textContent of the .h-x for name. drop leading & trailing white-space from name, including nbsp"
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gRegor` Leads me to believe CRLF within the text should not be removed.
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gRegor` But I'm not sure if that's implied with "textContent" or not.
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gRegor` I ask because I'm working on the mf2 test suite. The expected p-name in the suite is a single line, so a multi-line address is causing it to fail.
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KartikPrabhu bear: anythign special needs to be done after installing those 3 packages?
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tantek !tell benwerd I would be up for an IndieWebCamp DC. :)
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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bear let me look
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tantek gRegor`: interesting - "textContent" is a DOM property AFAIK hence why I spec'd it that way
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KartikPrabhu or any good link if also fine :)
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tantek so you should be able to verify it by simply checking what the value is in the DOM
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bear KartikPrabhu - I don't think so
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bear when I ran into it I found the FAQ entry on python requests docs site which lead to this SO question https://stackoverflow.com/questions/18578439/using-requests-with-tls-doesnt-give-sni-support/18579484#18579484
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gRegor` tantek: meaning CRLF within the text content should remain in the parsed p-name text, right?
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@benwerd Publish on your Own Site, Syndicate Elsewhere (one of my slides from #reclaimyourdomain). #indieweb https://twitter.com/benwerd/status/491000692773879810/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/491000692773879810)
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@mgershovich RT @benwerd: Publish on your Own Site, Syndicate Elsewhere (one of my slides from #reclaimyourdomain). #indieweb https://twitter.com/benwerd/status/491000692773879810/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/491000858016903168)
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tantek gRegor`: what happens in the DOM? unless we have a good reason to do otherwise, I'd say what the DOM does is the right answer.
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KartikPrabhu bear: yeah no luck on actual server... quitting this process at the moment
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bear is this thru mod_python?
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@feesable RT @benwerd: Publish on your Own Site, Syndicate Elsewhere (one of my slides from #reclaimyourdomain). #indieweb https://twitter.com/benwerd/status/491000692773879810/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/491001433727045632)
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bear (asking about mod_python because like uwsgi, it can use a different python binary than you are expecting - if you have more than one python version installed
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bear I found I was testing on python v2.7 from the command line but uwsgi was using v2.6
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@chuq RT @benwerd: Publish on your Own Site, Syndicate Elsewhere (one of my slides from #reclaimyourdomain). #indieweb https://twitter.com/benwerd/status/491000692773879810/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/491001667618238464)
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KartikPrabhu bear: hmm
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KartikPrabhu <sigh>
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gRegor` tantek: I'm not sure yet, which is why I'm asking. I just need to know whether php-mf2 needs to trim CRLF better within the text to match the expected output of this test, or if the expected output of this test is incorrect. https://github.com/tobiastom/tests/tree/master/adr/simpleproperties is the test.
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kylewm snarfed: hey if one were to add flickr (OAuth1) support to oauth-dropins, would you use requests_oauthlib, or grab a flickr-specific library?
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tantek gRegor`: you can check the DOM in JS in your browser
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tantek I'd say start there
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snarfed kylewm: interesting! ideally i'd use requests-oauthlib or another existing one. i'd really actually like to prune down most of the silo-specific libs, i just haven't been able to prioritize that
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tantek (the DOM in the browser follows the HTML5 parsing spec, which has ridiculous detail for whitespace, which I am not going to attempt to reconstruct)
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gRegor` Ok, will do
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tantek this: https://twitter.com/benwerd/status/490958867803537408
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@benwerd A+ API talk at #reclaimyourdomain. Btw, with microformats, you don't necessarily need JSON. Here's my site, parsed: http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwerd.io (twitter.com/_/status/490958867803537408)
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kylewm and yet https://twitter.com/benwerd/status/490959274646855680
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@benwerd Although, sometimes you *do* want to control the JSON. @withknown does Activity Streams JSON: http://werd.io/?_t=json #reclaimyourdomain (twitter.com/_/status/490959274646855680)
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salanto JSON is not really a very good data format imho
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tantek kylewm: so the question I have re: "sometimes you *do* want to control the JSON. " is *Why?* and follow-up, who if anyone is consuming your Activity Streams JSON?
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gRegor` Well, hm. Looks like textContent preserves whitespace and CRLF.
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KartikPrabhu bear: yeah... it seems my setup is somehow still using 2.6.6 :|
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Loqi benwerd: tantek left you a message 20 minutes ago: I would be up for an IndieWebCamp DC. :)
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bear very common with server side setups
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tantek perhaps I will post a reply to benwerd. oh there he is.
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benwerd tantek: awesome re: DC.
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gRegor` So I guess to make this test suite work, it should ignore the implied p-name, because it's value could contain any variation of whitespace.
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salanto One of my biggest peeves with json is that there is no way to differentiate between hash keys as string or hash keys as symbols/keywords/whatever your language calls them
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gRegor` Thing this is getting above my head :)
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benwerd agreed across the board with JSON
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benwerd of course, this is the preferable format for the future of the web. http://werd.io/?_t=dogeon
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benwerd but in all seriousness, webmention etc show that structured html is perfectly fine
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tantek benwerd I'm going to publicly question the AS JSON stuff so the fanboys don't get too out of control
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salanto https://github.com/edn-format/edn
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salanto edn is a nice json replacement
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salanto same general idea, without the pitfalls
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tantek gRegor`: whether to imply p-name or not has nothing to do with any variation of whitespace
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salanto It's what xml should have been
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gRegor` That's not what I meant
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tantek salanto - lol re: "what xml should have been"
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gRegor` The test has multiple properties (street-address, etc.) All of those are parsing correctly. There is no explicit p-name, so it concatenates the textContent together.
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benwerd tantek: :)
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tantek salanto - the pattern is that every 10 years programmers change what syntax is fashionable
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salanto Thats forever in internet time
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gRegor` I can't compare a full "expected output" array of the data to the php-mf2 parsed data, because the whitespace differences make for too many possible variants in the generated p-name
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tantek googles https://www.google.com/search?q=what+sites+consume+Activity+Streams+JSON and finds nothing in particular, maybe a library or a widget, but no sites that claim to consume Activity Streams JSON
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salanto It's not about the data types man, it's about the people and the content
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salanto I watched this talk about something like that
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tantek lol
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KartikPrabhu bear: weirdly I can't seem to import pyOpenSSL from my python shell
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tantek benwerd, how do I find the canonical (original) post from one of your POSSE tweets like https://twitter.com/benwerd/status/490959274646855680 ?
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@benwerd Although, sometimes you *do* want to control the JSON. @withknown does Activity Streams JSON: http://werd.io/?_t=json #reclaimyourdomain (twitter.com/_/status/490959274646855680)
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bear KartikPrabhu how did you install it? using pip? then check what python the pip is wired for and look in it's site-packages
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salanto I'm tempted to make an activity streams json plugin for Known for webmentions, right now it sends email and that is annoying me (mostly because it's running on my laptop and sendmail doesn't want to work)
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tantek benwerd - it makes replying to the original on your site much more difficult, and thus webmentioning directly from original indie reply to your indie post more difficult
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tantek (not being able to find the original)
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KartikPrabhu bear: yeah the pip is for 2.7 so it should be working
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tantek salanto - your Known sends email to you when you get a webmention?!?
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KartikPrabhu no wonder people don't have their own sites
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salanto I thought that was default behaviour?
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salanto At least thats what the source looks like it's doing
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bear KartikPrabhu - debugging shortcut for package questions: create a virtualenv, install pyopenssl in that venv - then find out what file/dir it uses
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benwerd tantek: agree. I'm not satisfied with anything I've tried implementing so far. Wish Twitter would let you hang links from tweets, but may have to just fall back to linking back.
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bear then you can grep your server side to see where it got put
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tantek !tell benwerd I almost found the original (as a comment on your site) but then found a hyperlink bug! On http://werd.io/2014/a-api-talk-at-reclaimyourdomain-btw-with-microformats-you-dont the phrase "Jul 20 2014" links to http://werd.io/profile/withknownhttp://werd.io/2014/although-sometimes-you-do-want-to-control-the-json-withknown which 404s.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek benwerd yes, as in literal code from view source: href="http://werd.io/profile/withknownhttp://werd.io/2014/although-sometimes-you-do-want-to-control-the-json-withknown"
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gRegor` Figured out (a) issue. PHP array comparison != JSON comparison. Back to work...
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tantek assuming that should be href="http://werd.io/2014/although-sometimes-you-do-want-to-control-the-json-withknown"
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bear gRegor`++
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KartikPrabhu bear: yeah everythign is installed in lib/python2.7 and still does not work
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kylewm tantek: /posse-post-discovery ! :P
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benwerd Aiiieee.
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Loqi benwerd: tantek left you a message 1 minute ago: I almost found the original (as a comment on your site) but then found a hyperlink bug! On http://werd.io/2014/a-api-talk-at-reclaimyourdomain-btw-with-microformats-you-dont the phrase "Jul 20 2014" links to http://werd.io/profile/withknownhttp://werd.io/2014/although-sometimes-you-do-want-to-control-the-json-withknown which 404s.
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gRegor` Well, I knew they weren't... but I was parsing JSON to arrays to compare the output. Mostly worked, but this is a problem point :)
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bear KartikPrabhu - what is your import line?
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KartikPrabhu import pyOpenSSL
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KartikPrabhu all small caps also does not work
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benwerd thanks for catching that :/
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bear KartikPrabhu - that library uses "import OpenSSL" for backwards compat reasons
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salanto One thing I have realised with posting to my own indiesite lately is that 90% of the stuff I post on the internet I don't want on twitter. It's usually just thought that I want to keep track of or stuff I want to show a handful of people
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KartikPrabhu doesn't matter requests2.3 still deosn't see it
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salanto s/thought/thoughts/
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Loqi salanto meant to say: One thing I have realised with posting to my own indiesite lately is that 90% of the stuff I post on the internet I don't want on twitter. It's usually just thoughts that I want to keep track of or stuff I want to show a handful of people
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bear hmm
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gRegor` Hmm. I think I give up on this test.
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gRegor` The CRLF is still captures in the JSON
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bear KartikPrabhu - try this: from requests.packages.urllib3.contrib import pyopenssl and then pyopenssl.inject_into_urllib3()
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gRegor` s/captures/captured/
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Loqi gRegor` meant to say: The CRLF is still captured in the JSON
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salanto Woo idea: Planet website that shows posts from indiewebsites
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gRegor` Expected output: 665 3rd St. Suite 207 San Francisco, CA 94107 U.S.A.
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KartikPrabhu bear: I though the requests lib should be doing things correctly. I'll give that a shot later... don't feel like trying to fix some big library at the moment.
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KartikPrabhu thsnk thgouh :)
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salanto like http://planet.mozilla.org/
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gRegor` Output based on the input.html: 665 3rd St. \r\n Suite 207 \r\n San Francisco, \r\n CA \r\n 94107 \r\n U.S.A.
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bear KartikPrabhu - *nods* - I think that right now requests handles 80% of it and your running into that 20% that should be fixed "soon" :/