#indiewebcamp 2014-07-21

2014-07-21 UTC
#
gRegor`
That output is correct per the spec and textDocument, as far as I can tell.
#
tantek
salanto see and feel free to contribute to: http://indiewebcamp.com/planet
#
KartikPrabhu
bear: fixed!
#
bear
KartikPrabhu \o/
#
@MarkMorvant
RT @benwerd: Publish on your Own Site, Syndicate Elsewhere (one of my slides from #reclaimyourdomain). #indieweb https://twitter.com/benwerd/status/491000692773879810/photo/1
(twitter.com/_/status/491010001440215040)
#
KartikPrabhu
bear: turns out "six" was not installed because I have to do "pip install --user six ".... who the F#%@ is supposed to tell me that!
#
tantek
salanto also agreed about "stuff I post on the internet I don't want on twitter" - or rather, I'd like to get to the point where I can trivially post little things on my site as much as I like, without feeling the burden to self-censor/self-rate-limit due to cross-posting to Twitter(&FB).
#
bear
KartikPrabhu - oh my word
#
tantek
but for now, since my posting UI is crap, that slows me down enough to only post once in a while and thus not too bothersome for those that follow on Twitter/FB
#
salanto
My indiesite is hosted on my laptop. My view is that it's my data that im giving people permission to view. Not some server that I have permission to write to
#
salanto
I only POSSE things I want people to see when I close my computer
#
tantek
salanto - sure, your local copy of your site as the "truth" and some server on the web as a "cache" of that :)
#
tantek
salanto - do you have more than one device you write on? or browse/favorite/comment on?
#
salanto
tantek: Write on as in create the post content, or store the content?
#
tantek
the former
#
tantek
e.g. I type stuff on 2-3 laptops and an iPod
#
salanto
Ah, I have a ton of devices that I use to view/write stuff with
#
salanto
my phone is my primary input device
#
tantek
how do you send your writings on your phone to your laptop canonical copy of your indiesite?
#
salanto
I pull up my laptop's website on my phone and create a post over the web
snarfed joined the channel
#
home.tylergillies.club
edited /planet (+33) "/* Planet Sites */"
(view diff)
#
tantek
salanto - like peer to peer? over your local wifi network?
#
tantek
and ***.club*** <--- what?!?
#
salanto
tantek: My laptop is publicly accessible from the internet
#
salanto
tantek: .club domains are only like 2 dollars a year from namecheap
#
salanto
ICANN went balls out. They even have .ninja now
#
tantek
salanto next I'm imagining you having an always on (and on the internet) raspberry pi tiny box in your back pocket that has your true/canonical data that you post to.
#
salanto
tantek: Actually I have a publicly accessible native ipv6 address on my rooted android phone that I am tempted to setup an indie site on, the only problem is that most people don't have ipv6 access from their isp yet
#
salanto
They could use the sixxs ipv6 proxy to get to my site I suppose
barnabywalters joined the channel
#
KartikPrabhu
where is /planet aggregating anything?
#
tantek
on planet.indiewebcamp.com of course, as the page says ;)
#
salanto
notices the winky face
snarfed1 and androtest joined the channel
#
KartikPrabhu
tantek: that just redirects to the homepage
#
tantek
KartikPrabhu: typically such redirects are an indication that something has yet to be implemented.
#
tantek
!tell benwerd do you have POSSE comment copies deduping somewhere on the Known task list? E.g. http://werd.io/2014/although-sometimes-you-do-want-to-control-the-json-withknown#comments
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
androte24 joined the channel
#
tantek.com
edited /webmention (+38) "/* Issues */ id deduping"
(view diff)
#
tantek
!tell benwerd deduping documented here: http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention#deduping
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
tantek
!tell benwerd interesting that http://werd.io/2014/a-api-talk-at-reclaimyourdomain-btw-with-microformats-you-dont shows less content (thread) than its "Also on: Twitter" POSSE copy: https://twitter.com/benwerd/status/490958867803537408 any thoughts about making Known posts as rich as (or richer than) their Twitter POSSE copies?
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
mko
tantek: I don't think benwerd has implemented recursive inreplyto (aka tweetstorms) like Twitter has.
#
tantek
mko - I don't really care what the underlying technique is (recursive whatever), but rather, the user visible difference between screenshots of those two URLs.
#
tantek
s/difference/differences
#
Loqi
tantek meant to say: mko - I don't really care what the underlying technique is (recursive whatever), but rather, the user visible differences between screenshots of those two URLs.
#
mko
Yeah. Agreed. I was just letting you know what the disconnect between the two was.
#
tantek
maybe, I mean, do you know how Twitter is actually coded? because I don't. hence I prefer to speak only at the user level for such things.
androtest and indie-visitor joined the channel
#
Loqi
Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
#
bret.io
edited /planet (+49) "/* Planet Sites */"
(view diff)
#
TeddyJ
I am thinking about setting up indieweb for my family and have a few questions...
emmak joined the channel
#
mko
Hi, TeddyJ. Welcome to the IndieWeb!
#
TeddyJ
1. I have pre-teen kids - should they each have their own domain or will subdomains do?
#
mko
That's up to you. Either would work fine.
#
TeddyJ
2. They currently only have an instagram account. Does this support rel=me?
#
tantek
TeddyJ instagram does support rel=me yes
emmak joined the channel
#
tantek
but I don't know if Indieauth (for example) supports auth via Instagram
#
mko
TeddyJ: I do not believe that Instagram is set up on IndieAuth, though, currently.
#
TeddyJ
So, without indieAuth, they would still sign in with email address?
#
mowens.com
edited /planet (+21) "/* Planet Sites */"
(view diff)
#
tantek
TeddyJ they could get setup on Persona with their email address
nagaway joined the channel
#
mko
TeddyJ: If you weren't familiar with Persona, https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/persona/
#
TeddyJ
If I have a domain: example.me, How do I register the subdomain: name.example.me?
fmarier joined the channel
#
mko
TeddyJ: The subdomain just needs to be added with your DNS provider to point to the relevant hosting provider IP address or folder. It varies from provider to provider.
#
TeddyJ
Is there a FAQ or wiki entry having to do with children on IndieWeb?
#
TeddyJ
..CHildren having their own domains I mean
#
mko
Not that I know of.
#
TeddyJ
Thanks for you help!
#
mko
Sure thing.
#
salanto
Speaking of children on indie web, the wife said she wanted to make internet of things baby toys for our kid
snarfed joined the channel
#
mko
The code is even open sourced for it
#
salanto
mko++
#
Loqi
mko has 5 karma
#
mko
Geezus that's a long URL. lol
#
mko
It does work though. :-)
#
salanto
phone with an ipv6 address publicly accessible over ipv4 internet
#
mko
That's unique and highly interesting.
#
salanto
phone.tylergillies.club works on its own if your isp has ipv6
#
mko
Yeah, yeah. Don't rub it in.
#
mko
;-)
#
salanto
you can get a free tunnel to enable ipv6 from tunnelbroker.net
#
salanto
the computer im on right now is through a tunnel
#
mko
I'm actually just waiting on Comcast for a new modem/gateway. IPv6 is supported on my line, but apparently the gateway they sent me when I signed up originally doesn't support it.
#
salanto
mko: I have the same situation for this router I'm on now
#
salanto
Ironically my modem has ipv6 support it just doesn't work with comcast's ipv6 network
#
salanto
how they managed that one is beyond me
#
salanto
Gonna try to throw a copy of Known on my Phone
#
salanto
Hey, thats kinda catchy
Jenny_ and snarfed joined the channel
#
snarfed
hey kylewm, I'm afk and saw a error spike on bridgy soon after the deploy. would you mind taking a look if you're around?
snarfed joined the channel
#
snarfed
kylewm: actually nm, looks like it was transient. I'll look later
#
snarfed
kylewm: saw the logs, looks like it's missing an index that's probably in your index.yaml. feel free to push that to upstream and deploy if you want! otherwise I will soon
snarfed joined the channel
crossdiver joined the channel
#
kylewm
!tell snarfed omg i broke everything :(
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
kylewm
I found the file you were talking about and deployed but I didn't any of the right api keys! ack
#
kylewm
OMG christmas is canceled
androte94 and KartikPrabhu joined the channel
#
salanto
YES!
#
JonathanNeal
kylewm: you put Christmas back right away.
#
salanto
I'm compiling a feed list of all indie web feeds, anyone want to contribute theirs?
snarfed joined the channel
#
Loqi
snarfed: kylewm left you a message 1 hour, 31 minutes ago: omg i broke everything :(
#
snarfed
for the logs, kylewm and i talked offline, everything is fine :P
#
@aaronpk
@kevinmarks @drewmeyers @kmccoy @arrington This is basically what FireEagle was supposed to be. I want an #indieweb version of that so bad.
(twitter.com/_/status/491087181981560832)
tantek joined the channel
#
salanto
Why does no one release a full indie web stack?
#
salanto
most of them are closed source with open source modules
wolftune joined the channel
#
salanto
compiling mongodb…. on my phone
cweiske joined the channel
#
kylewm
salanto: the open source question is one i asked too. i think the idea is basically: it's rEAlly hard to release and support a full product, and aaron et al feel they can serve the community better by experimenting with their sites and then releasing battle-tested code in small libraries
#
snarfed
there definitely are full open source stacks though
#
snarfed
e.g. known and wordpress
#
snarfed
and redwind, kylewm?
#
salanto
I hesitate to call wordpress an indieweb stack
#
kylewm
someone besides me tried/is trying to run Red Wind
#
snarfed
kylewm: cool!
#
snarfed
salanto: eh. if you only consider stuff people in this community wrote, that's pretty restrictive, and not very useful
#
snarfed
also, the vast majority of indieweb citizens, ie people publishing mf2 and sending/receiving webmentions, are on wordpress
#
snarfed
known is probably second
#
salanto
ah
#
salanto
good to know
catsup joined the channel
#
kylewm
I think it would be good question for a FAQ though
#
kylewm
"how do I install Indieweb?" :P
#
kylewm
"Why can't I just have p3k/taproot/Falcon?"
Jihaisse joined the channel
#
mko
I'm planning on releasing Indie.js (http://indiejs.com) as soon as I have a single working instance and then updating it as I go.
#
mko
My goal is to have a single app that can be downloaded, dropped on a server, and then started up via an install script.
jsilvestre joined the channel
#
mko
I only started on it about 2 weeks ago, though, so I'm not sure how long it'll be before it's out. Hoping to release my personal site at the end of this week as the "alpha" of it, then make some of it a bit more generic, then release v0.0.1-alpha on GitHub.
petermolnar1 joined the channel
#
bear
!spammer infoMGWV
#
Loqi
Only aaronpk and tantek can do that
#
bear
!tell tantek twitter user infoMGWV is a spammer
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
#
tantek
!spammer infoMGWV
#
tantek
that's quite clever Loqi
#
Loqi
tantek: bear left you a message 18 seconds ago: twitter user infoMGWV is a spammer
#
Loqi
Got it! There are now 14 spammers blacklisted
#
tantek
mko that's an awesome goal for indiejs - will be good to see Known get some competition ;)
#
tantek
and I agree with snarfed's anecdata on usage of various software projects to "get on the indieweb"
#
salanto
I'm trying to get my phone server setup and i just wanted a one click install
#
salanto
wordpress is what im currently going with
glennjones, petermolnar1 and petermolnar2 joined the channel
#
tantek
salanto: wordpress is currently the easiest initial install though I think Known is getting better and better. Pretty sure they are testing a version that runs on MySQL (not mongodb)
#
salanto
ubuntu is a bit too brittle on my phone to play nice with a complicated setup
#
tantek
Twitter has poor block/report spam handling, poor even by silo standards
#
tantek
on Flickr, Facebook, blogging platforms in general, if you block an author or delete a comment, it's gone from your post. On Twitter, it's only hidden *from you*. E.g. I blocked that spammer bear saw, and if you view this: https://twitter.com/t/status/490312706650431489 you will see it still has two comments from that spammer (I can see it on a non-logged-into-twitter browser)
#
@t
just informed my manager of @chloeweil's passing - I barely held it together. He'd met her @IndieWebCamp NYC in April. (ttk.me t4X91)
(twitter.com/_/status/490312706650431489)
#
salanto
tantek: its not your data to control ;)
#
petermolnar2
good morning
#
petermolnar2
I'm trying to test-install known with nginx, php 5.4 php from dotdeb, debian 7
#
petermolnar2
right next to the wordpress install I have a main site
#
petermolnar2
no luck so far: I end up with a top bar ( New Known Site, search ,sign in, register ), and no content apart from a known logo
#
petermolnar2
no error messages in php / syslog
#
petermolnar2
can anyone point me to debug log on/off location? :)
petermolnar joined the channel
#
bear
php5 writes the debug log based on, IIRC, the path stored in /etc/php.ini
#
bear
but finding where your php.ini is located can sometimes be fun
#
petermolnar
it should, yes
#
petermolnar
I'm aware of that
#
petermolnar
E_ALL level is set, no logs from known
#
petermolnar
from wordpress, yes
#
petermolnar
I was asking for Known debug options :)
#
bear
how are you calling php5 from nginx? php-fpm or ???
#
petermolnar
PHP-FPM, yes, the PHP log therefore shows up in nginx error log
#
bear
not always, i've seen some php apps where the app log is in the root dir, in /usr/local/.… - but i'm also not a php5 dev and was just trying to help
#
bear
goes back to lurking
fofr and glennjones joined the channel
#
cweiske
did I understand the oauth1 rfc correctly - scopes are not supported?
friedcell, pfefferle, KartikPrabhu, Sebastien-L and adactio joined the channel
#
petermolnar
that was a test post, which died in the middle of the process
krendil joined the channel
#
petermolnar
known is out of options for me: the content is stored as json blob in mysql when you're using the mysql layer
#
petermolnar
that's not really optional
#
cweiske
question is how to store a number of distinct types in the same table
fofr, barnabywalters and petermolnar joined the channel
#
@cpjobling
RT @benwerd: Publish on your Own Site, Syndicate Elsewhere (one of my slides from #reclaimyourdomain). #indieweb https://twitter.com/benwerd/status/491000692773879810/photo/1
(twitter.com/_/status/491191777966436352)
pfefferle, scor and Sebastien-L joined the channel
#
@thesuzettebrown
Good morning - @TheKindleWhispe eggs with the Bacon? Thank you for the https://www.youtube.com/ #indieweb #Author #Reading #Books
(twitter.com/_/status/491207782792966144)
#
@thesuzettebrown
Good morning - @TheKindleWhispe eggs with the Bacon? Thank you for the http://linkis.com/www.youtube.com/CvPnE #indieweb #Author #Reading #Books
(twitter.com/_/status/491207789180911616)
indie-visitor joined the channel
#
Loqi
Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
#
@harperdimmerman
RT @thesuzettebrown: Good morning - @TheKindleWhispe eggs with the Bacon? Thank you for the http://linkis.com/www.youtube.com/CvPnE #indieweb #Author #Re…
(twitter.com/_/status/491213387989528577)
#
@TheKindleWhispe
RT @thesuzettebrown: Good morning - @TheKindleWhispe eggs with the Bacon? Thank you for the http://linkis.com/www.youtube.com/CvPnE #indieweb #Author #Re…
(twitter.com/_/status/491214149436055553)
petermolnar, tantek, indie-visitor, cuibonobo and frzn joined the channel
#
frzn
hi :)
#
cuibonobo
frzn: hello!
pfefferle joined the channel
#
tantek
good morning cuibonobo frzn!
#
cuibonobo
morning tantek :)
#
tantek
good morning all - the call for participation in the W3C Social Web Working Group just went out to all W3C Advisory Committee members (member-only list), and I'm happy to report that the home page of the group is a wiki page :) http://www.w3.org/Social/WG
#
tantek
I want to encourage everyone in #indiewebcamp to consider participating (I'm a co-chair), whether officially or unofficially
#
tantek
since you're on IRC, please feel free to jump on the #social channel on irc.w3.org:6665
gRegor` joined the channel
#
barnabywalters
I never understand W3C call minutes. what’s timeboxing?
#
tantek
barnabywalters: this is close: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeboxing
#
barnabywalters
and what’s the difference between nick: text and indentented nick: text in a grey box?
#
tantek
I think the grey box is /me text
#
tantek
(thus unofficial side commentary)
#
tantek
oops no
#
tantek
nick: text is official minutes (taken by the minute taker)
#
tantek
and indented nick text in grey box is direct IRC statements from that person
#
tantek
all /me text is not logged
snarfed joined the channel
#
@RikMende
@glynmoody @w3c @evanpro sounds like #indieweb ? #webmention #federated #socnet @indiewebcamp
(twitter.com/_/status/491226849490796544)
#
@glynmoody
@RikMende @w3c @evanpro @indiewebcamp haven't had a chance to read it, so couldn't comment sensible, I'm afraid...
(twitter.com/_/status/491227061227651072)
#
gRegor`
Morning, indieweb
#
cuibonobo
good morning gRegor`
#
barnabywalters
morning gRegor`
wolftune joined the channel
brianloveswords and KartikPrabhu joined the channel
#
tantek
and as those tweets imply, public post: http://www.w3.org/blog/news/archives/3958
chrissaad joined the channel
#
KartikPrabhu
tantek: does there exist some sort of broad outline of what this Social Web Working Group is shooting for?
#
KartikPrabhu
like a problem definition of sorts
#
tantek
KartikPrabhu: yes the "broad outline of what a Working Group is shooting for" is called a "Charter" in W3C-speak
#
tantek
which is linked from the top of the home page: http://www.w3.org/Social/WG
#
KartikPrabhu
oh cool thanks
#
KartikPrabhu
w3c has such formal sounding names for things :P
#
KartikPrabhu
unrelated: I've had 2 people now tell me "this Medium.com also has that thing you made" about marginalia
#
barnabywalters
so what does being an “Invited Expert” involve?
#
tantek
KartikPrabhu: that's funny that people are now seeing your marginalia before Medium.com :)
#
barnabywalters
I love how you have to *apply* to be an *invited* expert
#
KartikPrabhu
tantek: it is a highly biased sample set of my friends so not wise to draw conclusions
#
barnabywalters
tantek: to look at the application requires a username and password
#
tantek
at top of that page
#
tantek
and if that doesn't find you, https://www.w3.org/accounts/request
#
barnabywalters
ah, is that the same as the wordpress signin for community groups or something else?
wolftune joined the channel
#
tantek
not a wordpress sign-in
scor joined the channel
#
barnabywalters
no, but maybe they use the same database
#
tantek
but community groups may be re-using the same w3c id
#
tantek
right
wolftune and pfefferle_ joined the channel
#
tantek
barnabywalters: is there sufficient information here about participation and how to become an invited expert? https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg#Participation
#
barnabywalters
tantek: it’s not at all clear what “invited experts” are actually supposed to do, but otherwise yes
#
tantek
I suppose that's a broader question - but in short, participate. :)
snarfed joined the channel
#
barnabywalters
okay, application for invitation sent
#
@RikMende
@evanpro @glynmoody @w3c @indiewebcamp @t very good news to avoid duplicate work/path, time to implement what already exists for me
(twitter.com/_/status/491243597652824064)
brianloveswords joined the channel
#
KartikPrabhu
has the w3c now moved on from XML to JSON ?
#
cuibonobo
tantek: could you clarify the abbreviations in the Milestones chart? the only one i think i can grok is Rec = recommendation (??)
#
KartikPrabhu
cuibonobo: mouse-over to see full forms
#
cuibonobo
KartikPrabhu: aha! thank you!
#
barnabywalters
see if the W3C worked like indiewebcamp, someone would have made http://www.w3.org/wiki/Milestones already
glennjones joined the channel
#
cuibonobo
the goals seem respectable, but the end-result ends up being too far away for me. i need to implement something as of yesterday
androtest joined the channel
#
gRegor`
You're in the right place then, cuibonobo
#
gRegor`
:)
#
tantek
barnabywalters: heh. W3C doesn't have Loqi. :)
#
Loqi
dude
#
tantek
cuibonobo: agreed. I think a lot of the "real work" will happen here frankly, and I see my role as chair to attempt to bridge communication with that broader audience, pointing / referencing the good work done in #indiewebcamp
#
cuibonobo
gRegor`: yep! i’m actually taking ideas from several places. indiewebcamp is my primary resource for getting my website display app to play nice with other sites. i’m getting ideas for how to actually store my stuff from the tent.io community
#
tantek
(as opposed to W3C going off an inventing a bunch of new complex enterprise stuff that no one implements)
#
tantek
kylewm: good catch - that should be http://www.w3.org/Social/WG
#
gRegor`
That's interesting, cuibonobo. How is tent.io storing things?
#
kylewm
ah, thanks
#
gRegor`
tantek: the archive link "public-socialweb-comments@w3.org (archive)" is 404
#
barnabywalters
in other words, it’s a way of getting the W3C official stamp of approval on indiewebcamp stuff, which is important to a lot of people
#
cuibonobo
gRegor`: the idea is to have a RESTful API of the data itself in JSON format and then have apps to consume that data in different ways. apps could range from scrobblers to the app that actually renders your website.
#
tantek
barnabywalters: that and having W3C efforts reference (rather than duplicate) indiewebcamp work
#
cuibonobo
gRegor`: however, i’m not subscribing to tent.io wholesale because they’re very focused on the protocol and have left actual real-world stuff behind
awolf joined the channel
#
barnabywalters
cuibonobo: that sounds like a sensible approach — reuse the useful work they’ve done and ignore the unproductive bits
pfefferle_ joined the channel
#
tantek
cuibonobo: "the app that actually renders your website" is an interesting viewpoint, since we're taking the simpler approach that your rendering of your website is your data (i.e. for interaction with webmentions etc.)
#
tantek
10 years ago people were building "RESTful API of the data itself in XML format"
tilgovi joined the channel
#
tantek
kylewm that broken link should now be fixed
#
kylewm
tantek++
#
Loqi
tantek has 51 karma
#
cuibonobo
tantek: i don’t subscribe to the idea that the HTML is simpler. for instance, i feel like a plaintext JSON file is easier to digest than plaintext HTML. but more than that, my goal is my data, not my website. my site is just a way to render my date.
#
tantek
cuibonobo: over time I'd assert that the HTML is actually the most stable reliable "form" of your data.
#
tantek
for the "easier to digest" need - that's why there's a canonical JSON representation of microformats2, and parsers that produce it
KartikPrabhu joined the channel
#
tantek
the idea is that longevity, reliability, stability is the most important thing for your data. And historically so far HTML has been better at that than XML, or JSON
#
tantek
despite supposedly being a "presentation" format
#
tantek
but I understand the current fashionability of JSON. Also good to have different folks pursuing different approaches.
#
tantek
some folks are using Markdown as the canonical form of their data, which has some good long term usage experience as well
#
cuibonobo
tantek: i would question the longevity of HTML. for instance, we’ve had a shift in perspectives about what HTML tags we should actually use: http://www.martinrinehart.com/frontend-engineering/engineers/html/html-tag-history.html
#
cuibonobo
tantek: and i believe microformats were completely redone fairly recently
#
tantek
with backward compat for past microformats
#
tantek
with actually more well defined rules than before
#
tantek
thus original microformats now have a canonical JSON representation that they never did when originally published
#
tantek
which HTML tags have shifted in particular?
#
barnabywalters
well marked-up classic microformats are parsed seamlessly by commonly used microformats2 parsers
#
tantek
(we've known to ignore presentational HTML markup for a *very* long time)
#
cuibonobo
tantek: back when i first started using HTML, presentational markup was still a thing! and i’m only 32
#
tantek
but to your point about original microformats - HTML+microformats have outlasted *all* the XML formats that were being pushed at the time. Even by big companies like Google and Yahoo.
#
tantek
originally XML was supposed to win over all this stuff
#
tantek
microformats was a scrappy simpler alternative
#
mko
I don't have time to get into a discussion right now, but I will say this: from my own experience, microformats parsing isn't consistent right now except across a limited subset of parsers. For example, mf2py, hkit, microformat-node, and sumo all produced different parsing results when I was trying to figure out why one of my articles wouldn't validate as an h-entry in my webmention module.
#
tantek
cuibonobo: when I first started to also (~1995), but by 1998 I'd been properly educated about it ;)
#
mko
The culprit? <article>
#
mko
It should be noted that mf2py resulted in a perfect parsing.
#
tantek
mko I thought others (kylewm?) said they saw no problem with <article>
#
mko
Using mf2py and php-mf2 there was no problem.
#
cuibonobo
tantek: my perspective is: what is this data for? if my primary use-case is to have a searchable repository, it doesn’t make sense to spend my time creating / maintaining HTML parsers that will then populate an index. databases already exist, so i’ll use that.
#
cuibonobo
the longevity of my data is a different problem entirely
#
mko
I've already filed issues with the others that didn't work with <article>
#
cuibonobo
i can’t expect to have data that is useful now and data that i can put in cold storage
#
tantek
cuibonobo: databases seem to transfer less well from system to system than flat files, hence a lot of us have rejected databases for any canonical storage.
#
barnabywalters
mko: IIRC hkit is no longer maintained, and is a classic microformats parser anyway
#
tantek
caching is fine for dbs
#
barnabywalters
same for sumo
#
tantek
basically, we can't be bothered with having to worry about being database admins
#
mko
barnabywalters: I had mf1 and mf2 embedded in the article itself. They both still should have worked.
#
barnabywalters
so it’s not reasonable to expect them to produce the same results as a microformats2 parser
#
barnabywalters
as there *was* no standardised form of output for classic microformats
#
tantek
hkit produced its own results anyway - there was no defined programmer output at the time
#
mko
Okay. I'll give you that for hkit and sumo
#
tantek
hkit is php right? perhaps it should be updated to just use phpmf2
#
barnabywalters
it’s only really meaningful to compare microformats2 parsers
#
cuibonobo
tantek: you’re right. databases are a pain to transfer. but am i going to delay the storage of my stuff while i implement a proper parser? i’d rather store my stuff now and figure out how to translate when the new hot thing comes along.
#
tantek
right, and the point is they produce consistent results, even with classic microformats (or rather they all should, modulo some issues / bug fixes)
#
tantek
cuibonobo: I guess enough of us have gotten bitten enough times with data loss from database hassles that we've given up on them
pfefferle_ joined the channel
#
tantek
as canonical storage
Sebastien-L joined the channel
#
tantek
and decided to eat the upfront dev cost of using flat files instead, for the sake of being free of future database-tax
#
tantek
but your're right, databases can be a good bootstrapping mechanism. it's how Known advanced so quickly in its feature set (IMO)
#
cuibonobo
tantek: i’m very new to this community, but it seems like the up-front cost is *much* too high compared to `brew install mongo`. plus: what if everyone moves to blockchain storage and namecoin as DNS within the next 10 years :D
#
tantek
so yes, it's still good to see different people pursuing different approaches.
#
tantek
lol blockchains. I think that's another fashion thing that will pass. :)
#
tantek
fair enough about up-front cost is *much* too high
#
tantek
which is also why those of us using flat files for storage have yet to open source that code AFAIK - storage is hard enough to get working for yourself, nevermind something others can depend on
#
tantek
(myself at least, I'm implying for aaronpk and others)
#
tantek
though … barnabywalters doesn't Taproot use flat files for storage?
#
barnabywalters
I use flat files and CSV indexes
#
barnabywalters
at some point I will move to using elasticsearch for indexing/querying, but CSVs are adequate right now
#
androtest
block chains are good for accounting and not much else
#
tantek
barnabywalters: and Taproot is 100% open source right?
#
barnabywalters
tantek: nope, only components listed on http://taprootproject.com
#
tantek
oh no sorry
#
androtest
like all the other ones ;)
#
barnabywalters
androtest: there are plenty of valid use cases — essentially anything where you need to be able to know that one thing happened before another
#
tantek
so that's my general point. a bunch of us are using flat files for storage, but yes, it's hard, so none of that code is not open source yet
#
barnabywalters
but it’s just moving the trust to the network rather than a trusted third party
#
barnabywalters
I have recently (places) run into cases where using my CSV indexes has blocked adding useful features, so elasticsearch has moved up a little in my priortity list now
#
tantek
if I came up with a decent abstraction for my flat file storage (in HTML+microformats) in Falcon I'd likely open source even just that bit in the hopes that someone else would find it useful.
#
barnabywalters
I think glennjones’ transmat storage is the closest thing to this so far — give it flat files and you get an API
#
tantek
cuibonobo++ for pursuing what's #selfdogfood productive in the short term. :)
#
Loqi
cuibonobo has 3 karma
#
cuibonobo
tantek: thanks :)
#
tantek
storage is "just" plumbing, and all the user features we get working on our sites are much more important :)
androte0 joined the channel
#
cuibonobo
exactly!!
#
tantek
(though some aspects of storage, like backup, restore, recovery are user-exposed features, and I think that's where some of the flat file vs. database tension comes from)
#
tantek
as a user I sleep better knowing my "data" is all in a simple folder I can copy around, rather than a series of exports/commandlines that talk to a database server somewhere
#
tantek
barnabywalters: interesting about Transmat - care to start a /Transmat stub?
jschweinsberg joined the channel
#
barnabywalters
I would if I could find or remember the link to the API demo
#
tantek
wiki search?
KartikPrabhu joined the channel
#
gRegor`
barnabywalters: Is it this? http://store.transmat.io/
#
barnabywalters
gRegor`: that’s the one! thanks
emmak joined the channel
#
gRegor`
cuibonobo: Are you using an existing /project to run your site, or setting up something custom?
androtest joined the channel
#
cuibonobo
gRegor`: since i like the *idea* of tent.io but it’s becoming apparent that it’s not gonna be ready for at least a year, i’ve decided to roll my own thing. i’m using a lot of ready-made components though: Eve for the API, Flask for web apps, Mongo for storage
#
cuibonobo
gRegor`: i’ll be fully open-sourcing my journey here: https://github.com/jenmontes/piss
cweiske joined the channel
#
gRegor`
Haha "Yes, really."
#
Loqi
awesome
#
tantek
cuibonobo: awesome!
#
tantek
and now I've passed along the socialweb wg announcement with fewer words: https://twitter.com/t/status/491261750239457285
#
Loqi
[@t] W3C Social Web Working Group launched today:
#
bear
hands @t a huge helping of patience and grace
#
bear
you will need it for W3C work
#
KartikPrabhu
in confused about RESTful APIs how are they diff. from just a website?
#
Loqi
KartikPrabhu meant to say: is confused about RESTful APIs how are they diff. from just a website?
#
tantek
KartikPrabhu++ :)
#
Loqi
KartikPrabhu has 51 karma
#
KartikPrabhu
oh i get it ;)
#
bear
a website with MF2 can be an API
#
KartikPrabhu
i mean why even mf2? if i just return nice HTML...
#
cuibonobo
KartikPrabhu: it’s just about adhering to HTTP protocols rather than inventing your own API. i think it was just a reaction to JSON RPC
#
bear
the nit I pick is that html is not cleanly structured
#
KartikPrabhu
bear: sure
#
tantek
JSON RPC?!? That's a thing. Wow.
#
bear
REST is more than just returning something from a request
#
KartikPrabhu
well all the RESTful API code seems to be database+JSON/XML ...
#
KartikPrabhu
and there seems to be a lot of "I want a RESTful API not a website" type sentiments
snarfed joined the channel
#
Loqi
gives KartikPrabhu a RESTful API not a website" type sentiments
#
bear
right - the REST "movement" was, as cuibonobo noted, a response to XML based RPC and other older call/response tech
#
KartikPrabhu
so I'm wondering if I am missing something
#
bear
your not
#
bear
it's a tool that service oriented or micro service oriented teams can use
#
bear
IMO a good interface is the one that changes the result based on content-type
#
barnabywalters
the term REST is also almost as abused and misused as HTML5
#
cuibonobo
yeah that’s really it. you’re bound to HTTP verbs rather than trying to make up your own API, and the server shouldn’t save sessions. full stop.
#
bear
yes! html5 definitely muddied the waters when folks who didn't quite grok REST started to make sites
#
KartikPrabhu
bear: that's what I thought people did. apprently not
#
barnabywalters
so when people say they want a REST API rather than a website it’s worth digging down to see what they actually mean
#
KartikPrabhu
barnabywalters: most of my investigations ended up with "they got JSON data rendered with JS client-side"
#
KartikPrabhu
those are not actual quotes from someone
#
KartikPrabhu
<shrugs> this mostly sounds like HTTP is coming back into fashion
#
KartikPrabhu
for instance, there is Django and there is the django-rest-framework... which led to my confusion
#
bear
all big frameworks have tools/modules to enable REST(ish) routes to be defined
#
bear
heck REST got it's big push from the ruby-on-rails folks
#
@t
@evanpro oops. thanks for reminder & tweet id. #indieweb post updated http://tantek.com/2014/202/t1/social-web-working-group-launched-wiki-irc but not tweet POSSE copy. (ttk.me t4XC2)
(twitter.com/_/status/491266515384020992)
emmak, paulcp, gavinc and friedcell joined the channel
#
@benwerd
@S_dF My last reply! ;) We're strongly aligned with the #indieweb community, which lays out its principles here: http://indiewebcamp.com/
(twitter.com/_/status/491277911320563713)
jsilvestre joined the channel
#
@benwerd
Not sure why the W3C social web working group is getting attention now, but nonetheless: http://www.cnet.com/news/w3c-tries-building-social-networking-into-the-web/ #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/491279668423577600)
#
@torgo
RT @benwerd: Not sure why the W3C social web working group is getting attention now, but nonetheless: http://www.cnet.com/news/w3c-tries-building-social-networking-into-the-web/ #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/491280405408923648)
#
tantek
!tell benwerd because W3C Social Web WG *just* launched *today*
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
tantek
oh sheesh - and he linked to the sad CNET article.
#
@t
@benwerd because @W3C Social Web WG *just* launched *today* http://tantek.com/2014/202/t1/social-web-working-group-launched-wiki-irc as noted on the #indieweb. Ahem. ;) (ttk.me t4XC3)
(twitter.com/_/status/491281703785095169)
#
tantek
!tell benwerd yes I'm giving you a hard time for reading and linking to a *CNET* article instead of a better, more indie source. ;)
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
chrissaad joined the channel
#
gRegor`
!tell aaronpk #indiewebcamp main channel misses you. ;)
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
aaronparecki.com
edited /exercise (+218) "/* Silo Examples */ add runkeeper, note strava export"
(view diff)
#
jenmontes.com
edited /User:Jenmontes.com (+135) "More Loqi-friendly, plus added my personal project."
(view diff)
snarfed joined the channel
#
gRegor`
who is cuibonobo
#
Loqi
Jen Montes is and illustrator for Archer on FX and pokes at ideas in her free time http://indiewebcamp.com/User:Jenmontes.com
#
cuibonobo
hey! it works!
#
gRegor`
tada!
#
mko
Huzzah!
#
tantek
sweet!
#
gRegor`
s/and/an/ in your first sentence though :)
#
cuibonobo
good catch!
#
cuibonobo
gRegor`++
#
cuibonobo
aaw. does Loqi not like your backtick?
#
Loqi
woot!
#
jenmontes.com
edited /User:Jenmontes.com (-1) "/* Jen Montes */ Typo fix."
(view diff)
#
gRegor`
Nope :/
#
gRegor`
We'll get it fixed one day. It worked for a bit, then Loqi got tired of it again
#
gRegor`
I think some wiki code was updated and it wasn't in vc
#
gRegor`
accepts karma at: gRegornobacktick
#
mko
gRegornobacktick++
#
Loqi
gRegornobacktick has 1 karma
#
cuibonobo
gRegornobacktick++
#
Loqi
gRegornobacktick has 2 karma
#
gRegor`
:)
#
tantek.com
edited /API (+114) "/* Fragility */ snowflakyness"
(view diff)
#
tantek.com
edited /API (+0) "/* Fragility */ typo"
(view diff)
#
tantek.com
created /snowflakiness (+264) "stub"
(view diff)
#
tantek
what is snowflakiness?
#
Loqi
snowflakiness refers to the fragility (flakiness) of snowflake APIs http://indiewebcamp.com/snowflakiness
#
kylewm
did you coin that one, tantek?
#
tantek
just moments ago
#
kylewm
I like it
#
@kevinmarks
“A generative, networked system laced throughout with secrets.” —@robinsloan https://medium.com/message/the-secret-of-minecraft-97dfacb05a3c Minecraft, but could be the #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/491289740348366849)
KevinMarks joined the channel
#
mko
Geezus.
#
gRegor`
Well there's IWC before 1.78M people. :)
#
mko
That's pretty cool that timoreilly tweeted about IndieWebCamp, though.
#
@kevinmarks
@timoreilly @benwerd I think you'd like it. Do you have a personal domain? http://www.oreilly.com/tim/ maybe? #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/491292377705762816)
#
tantek
be nice to the new folks that may show up today via Tim's tweet!
#
tantek
(I mean, as you usually are. :) )
#
KevinMarks
so tim.oreilly.com redirects to www.oreilly.com/tim - indieweb enough?
#
tantek
KevinMarks: no, and here's why: http://indiewebcamp.com/subdomains
#
tantek
LiveJournal already learned this lesson: http://indiewebcamp.com/lj2006
#
KevinMarks
well, tim does pretty much own oreilly.com
#
@timbray
@kevinmarks Huh, I guess I’m an #indieweb guy by virtue of having my own domain & using my own blog software.
(twitter.com/_/status/491293444149489664)
#
tantek.com
edited /lj2006 (+238) "stub, link to subdomains"
(view diff)
#
tantek
waits for KevinMarks to call out @timbray for not tweeting on his own domain ;)
snarfed joined the channel
#
KevinMarks
that would be a bit hypocritical of me
#
tantek
KevinMarks is too smart for me to sneak that one by him ;)
#
tantek
that's a good start
#
KevinMarks
tim O also retweeted that minecraft/indieweb analogy
#
tantek
KevinMarks link?
timbray joined the channel
#
@kevinmarks
“A generative, networked system laced throughout with secrets.” —@robinsloan https://medium.com/message/the-secret-of-minecraft-97dfacb05a3c Minecraft, but could be the #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/491289740348366849)
#
KevinMarks
welcome tim
#
timbray
hey
#
mko
Welcome, timbray
#
timbray
about to drop off as I leave for the airport for OSCON
#
KevinMarks
ah, I'm missing OSCON this year. I expect other indieweb people will be there
#
aaron_pk
timbray: oh cool! I'm in PDX. We should probably do an indieweb breakfast one of these oscon days!
#
KevinMarks
I'd love to see your perspective on the indieweb principles - I think you already follow a lot of them
ShaneHudson joined the channel
#
Loqi
[@benwerd] @timoreilly IndieWebCamp is awesome. I'm in Santa Rosa 50% of the time
#
Loqi
would love to come across & demo Known, p3k, tech we're all creating (http://twtr.io/ok3G4hNZEf)
#
@kevinmarks
@chuq @timbray the #indieweb principles are based on years of practice and realising that personal sites were no longer assumed
(twitter.com/_/status/491296847575928834)
johncash joined the channel
#
johncash
Looks like Tim Oreilly is an indieweb fan
paulcp joined the channel
#
gRegor`
Hi, johncash. Yep, looks like it. :)
Shane_ joined the channel
#
bretolius
gah #social is on the w3c irc network
ShaneHudson joined the channel
#
johncash
DIDn't even know w3c had an irc network
#
johncash
!tell benwerd do you have a business model for known?
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
bretolius
johncash i think elgg was used by a lot of non profits… known would likely be of interest there. but I think the idea is that it would be useful to many more people
ShaneHudson joined the channel
#
bretolius
johncash and the other is a hosted known service. thats all know of
#
ShaneHudson
Yeah I think a lot of people will find a hosted service for Known to be useful, makes it a little less 'geeky'.
#
KevinMarks
ideally a hosted service that includes buying and provisioning a domain too
#
bretolius
that would be rad
#
@t
@timoreilly Thanks! Would be great to do @IndieWebCamp in Sebastopol with actual camping! Could even invite tent.io :) (ttk.me t4XC4)
(twitter.com/_/status/491305041827880960)
#
bretolius
ShaneHudson what software do you use to run your site?
#
ShaneHudson
Yeah, and a way to easily host elsewhere.
#
tantek
(ok so I thought the IndieWebCamp / camping / tent.io joke was funny ;) )
crossdiver joined the channel
#
ShaneHudson
I use Wordpress at the moment, having a lot of troubles with it but has been too much work trying to move it elsewhere. I will probably use Known, as it has a lot of the extras I need (content types nicely done etc)
#
bretolius
ShaneHudson ah cool. it looked like it might have been done in jekyll or something similar
#
ShaneHudson
Ah nah, there are thousands of private posts etc :)
#
bretolius
oy
#
ShaneHudson
I kind of use it as a diary, though slowly trying to make more public such as bookmarks.
#
ShaneHudson
But I've had no time. Just finished my book and about to finish work. So should be able to find some time soon to make progress!
#
ShaneHudson
Biggest problem with Wordpress is the amount of memory usage it takes up with MySQL. I tried going file based but changed my mind
#
bretolius
caseorganic does something similar iirc
#
tantek
I don't think caseorganic uses WordPress
#
mko
I believe she uses p3k now like aaronpk does.
#
KevinMarks
hm, I wonder who I should ask at archive.org to add the fragmentions.js script to the web archive
#
tantek
who is caseorganic?
#
KevinMarks
that would be really handy
#
tantek
KevinMarks: that would be amazing
#
mko
Yeah. In the footer, it says it's powered by p3k
#
KevinMarks
just needed it for this debate with spolsky
#
tantek
spolsky?
#
tantek
who is spolsky?
#
bretolius
tantek its a private instance… got to peek at it at os bridge :)
#
tantek
oh that thing
#
bretolius
i dont think p3k handles privacy in a very robust way
#
bretolius
yet....
#
snarfed
ShaneHudson: i assume you've tried bumping WP_MEMORY_LIMIT up? i use 256M for mine. http://codex.wordpress.org/Editing_wp-config.php#Increasing_memory_allocated_to_PHP
#
tantek
so here's a question, when has this ever been a valid line of reasoning? "Not certain the Millennials & Gen Z would agree re the value prop" per https://twitter.com/S_dF/status/491289971597115392
#
@S_dF
@benwerd thnx for the clarification. Makes sense now. Not certain the Millennials & Gen Z would agree re the value prop.
(twitter.com/_/status/491289971597115392)
#
ShaneHudson
I have but my server is only 1GB RAM. Sadly. It costs a fortune too so need to host elsewhere when it runs out in October
#
snarfed
understood
#
tantek
"the Millennials & Gen Z" didn't build Twitter nor cause it to take off for example.
#
kylewm
boo strawgeneration
#
KevinMarks
"they'll never leave Bebo"
#
tantek
and FB took off by catering to a smaller (selfdogfood) crowd as well
#
KevinMarks
I can't keep track of these generation handwaves. who qualifies as milennial?
#
@schnarfed
@S_dF @benwerd as an intermediate step, tumblr users can use http://www.brid.gy/ to participate in the #indieweb without migrating away.
(twitter.com/_/status/491308361598504960)
#
@teleject
I third this idea! “@grigs: @t @timoreilly @IndieWebCamp 100% agree with this idea.”
(twitter.com/_/status/491308379176857600)
#
@ShaneHudson
@S_dF @benwerd They will once the websites they use go down and they lose all their data. Like all of these: http://indiewebcamp.com/site-deaths
(twitter.com/_/status/491308404343046144)
#
kylewm
KevinMarks: born 1980 - 2000
#
tantek
ShaneHudson++ well done
#
Loqi
ShaneHudson has 1 karma
#
ShaneHudson
I was born in 93, thereby I can say he is very much wrong :P
#
tantek
ShaneHudson: awesome! you can say that - hey I *am* a Millenial, and I'm all over the value prop.
#
tantek
maybe we need a video. a bunch of quick cuts of millenials saying "I'm a millenial, and I'm on the indieweb." ;)
#
tantek
in decentralized fashion, perhaps post a video of yourself saying so on your own site!
#
tantek
where's barnabywalters? :)
#
ShaneHudson
Hah a video of me? No chance :P
#
tantek
ShaneHudson I've seen you in person - I think you'd be great! :)
tilgovi joined the channel
#
KevinMarks
so twitter was build by millenials then - Blaine was born in 1980
paulcp joined the channel
#
tantek
KevinMarks: no I'd say Blaine is much more Gen X than Millenial
#
KartikPrabhu
Gen Z!!! <barf>
#
tantek
I mean, have *talked* to the guy? ;)
#
tantek
s/have/have you
#
Loqi
tantek meant to say: I mean, have you *talked* to the guy? ;)
#
cuibonobo
the problem with the “these youngsters will find out one day” argument is that when the day comes, I won’t remember your argument. what’s good about the indieweb *right now*?
#
KevinMarks
I was his manager for a while...
#
tantek
cuibonobo: when the day comes, the old arguments won't matter.
fmarier joined the channel
#
tantek
cuibonobo: the latter adopters will adopt because their friends and people they respect (or want to be like) are adopting.
#
tantek
Ev, Blaine, Jack are all very much more GenX like than Millenial like (re: Twitter)
#
bear
your all young'uns - get off my world-wide-web lawn!
#
cuibonobo
tantek: yes. exactly. so “they’ll come around once those websites go down” isn’t very attractive. if i recall, there’s a similar argument about databases on the wiki ;)
#
bear
starts a "bring back gopher and wais" campaign
#
tantek
no no that's different, that's more like, our databases *have* gone down, so we've abandoned them and going with what's not gone down - flat files :)
#
tantek
bear - gopher lost its chance by not open sourcing.
#
tantek
was a fan of gopher back in the day, so much more "organized" than the messy "web" thing.
#
bretolius
cyberspace
#
tantek
so here's a question - how useful are the bridgy [mention]s here in IRC to people?
#
@kid_OYO
...heard round camp last week: "use a self-respecting data structure... not Facebook." kids aged 8-13 #vrm #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/491310693665472513)
#
tantek
does anyone ever click on them? and do they every give you something you're interested in?
#
snarfed
tantek: probably not much
#
cuibonobo
tantek: they would be more interesting with the actual text
#
ShaneHudson
Both of those mentions were already linked in here when I tweeted them
#
ShaneHudson
In fact, it is the same tweet.
#
bretolius
i click them
#
cuibonobo
i like to scan in IRC, so i don’t click much
#
bretolius
::[
#
@oparisy
@t Is your favoring of my retweet a example of #indieweb possibilities (centralization of citations, etc.), or of a more trivial nature? :-)
(twitter.com/_/status/491310940407607296)
#
tantek
^^^ so that's like a reply to a "favorite"
#
tantek
if only my "favorite" had a permalink...
#
tantek
that that reply could be in-reply-to
#
bretolius
can I favorite your favorite?
#
tantek
sheesh and I haven't even gotten reposts (POSSE retweets) working yet. ;)
#
snarfed
tantek: aaronpk has mentioned wanting to fetch bridgy webmentions and render the contents, e.g. "John Doe retweeted XYZ on Twitter"
#
tantek
bretolius: you can favorite any URL
#
tantek
bretolius: you tell me - does your site support posting /likes or /favorites ?
#
ShaneHudson
Has there been discussion on decentralising bridgy?
#
tantek
ShaneHudson: it's open source so you can just deploy your own
#
ShaneHudson
Ah that's true
#
kylewm
snarfed: is it true that the Loqi bridgy mentions are always going to be someone replying/liking/retweeting a silo post that links to an indiewebcamp.com page?
#
snarfed
ShaneHudson: there are also other backfeed implementations. http://indiewebcamp.com/backfeed
#
bretolius
it does but its crappy. i get like 4 hours a week to work on my indieweb projects and 2 are spend trying to track down stupid bugs in my code
#
snarfed
kylewm: generally yes
#
kylewm
my feeling is that is pretty much never useful :)
#
ShaneHudson
snarfed: I'm using bridgy at the moment and do like how easy it is :) Just aware that it could stop working at some point.
#
ShaneHudson
I need to style my bridgy mentions actually, currently displaying as comments
#
tantek.com
edited /Bridgy (+363) "/* FAQ */ Could Bridgy be decentralized"
(view diff)
#
KevinMarks
yikes, do we need to add http://www.bbc.co.uk/ to /site-deaths ?
#
KevinMarks
it's serving 500s
#
tantek
I'd wait and presume DDOS
#
ShaneHudson
Wow. They've been having trouble for about a week, but a 500 on homepage? Yikes.
#
ShaneHudson
They were running a simplified version beforehand, not sure why. Could be related.
#
@visitlakeanna
RT @kid_OYO: ...heard round camp last week: "use a self-respecting data structure... not Facebook." kids aged 8-13 #vrm #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/491313094920896513)
#
tantek
thought he saw something about Google Wave but can't see it in the logs so it must not exist.
#
tantek
cuibonobo: perhaps the answer is to skip Millenials and just get the next generation instead: https://twitter.com/kid_OYO/status/491310693665472513
#
@kid_OYO
...heard round camp last week: "use a self-respecting data structure... not Facebook." kids aged 8-13 #vrm #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/491310693665472513)
#
cuibonobo
aaaw! :_)
#
tantek.com
edited /LiveJournal (+13) "/* See Also */ lj2006"
(view diff)
#
tantek
cuibonobo: I know! Adorable right?
#
bretolius
"…if facebook ever tries to offer you candy..."
#
tantek.com
edited /LiveJournal (+301) "Notable Events, lj2006 switch to subdomains"
(view diff)
#
cuibonobo
tantek: the curriculum for this program looks awesome. and for kids so young! oh man.
snarfed and androte0 joined the channel
#
aaronparecki.com
edited /Posts_about_the_IndieWeb (+207) "add wordyard.com article"
(view diff)
androtest joined the channel
#
tantek
does anyone yet understand what's actually "respectful" or "network" about the "Respect Network"? as referenced http://www.wordyard.com/2014/07/03/indieweb-and-respect-network-two-roads-to-decentralizing-the-network/ (they seem to want to be a for-pay centralized registry of "=xyz" identifiers - not very networky, nor respectful of existing web identifiers - hey domain names)
#
KevinMarks
how is XDI decentralising?
#
tommorris
XDI Zombies!
krendil and indie-visitor joined the channel
#
aaron_pk
"Email and phone verification is required in order to ensure that you are complying with the Respect Network One-Person-One-Account rule." from the Respect Network registration prompt
#
aaron_pk
also seems not very respectful :-/
bnvk joined the channel
#
KevinMarks
i find it amusing that @kevinmarks is an xdi identifier
#
tommorris
Yes gods that is fairly dumb
#
tantek
on a more productive note, see Evan's blog post about W3C Social Web WG: https://e14n.com/evan/note/s4sLsySKS_C9Ac1Mu80k3Q
#
tantek
note in particular all the interaction with the post below it, including the likes, "shares" (reposts), and replies
#
aaron_pk
!!! identi.ca was replaced with pump.io! https://identi.ca/
#
tantek
in particular note this comment on the post: https://microca.st/clacke/comment/7_QnqMCSTwuETjiUjlBOzQ which has two likes
#
tantek
and note that the original post shows both that comment and the fact that it has two likes!
#
tantek
across 3 different domains!
#
tantek
the likes came from identi.ca accounts to a reply posted on microca.st which itself is a comment on e14n.com
#
kylewm
pump.io speaks activitystreams, i wonder whether Known's json could talk to it
#
tantek
so the question is - does this all only work because it is a single piece of software (pumpio) - thus monoculture? or is something more interesting going on?
#
tommorris
Respect Network can safely be completely ignored. The combination of Google+ style identity verification horror show + XDI silliness made me have to check I had only had one drink.
#
kylewm
whether or not there is something more interesting going on, all those servers run the same software (pump)
#
tantek
kylewm: so monoculture once again. well, interesting proof of concept for the UI at least
#
tantek
and for having stuff work cross-site
#
aaron_pk
I would hope that there's nothing preventing other sites from integrating like that
#
tantek
aaronpk - I wouldn't presume that - as usually when it's the same piece of software, it means it's depending on software-specific behaviors (above beyond or excepting from any "standard" protocol/format)
#
tantek
as happened with identica/statusnet, then diaspora, now also tent
#
tantek
all of which can be deployed across sites to talk to their own software, but none with each other.
#
bnvk
the XDI of Respect Network is atrocious
#
johncash
pumpit.info should really use something like indieauth
#
johncash
im not making any more passwords
#
johncash
im done
#
kylewm.com
edited /pump.io (+38) "/* Unknown Delay Adopting IndieWeb Standards */ pull request to add microformats2 closed"
(view diff)
#
johncash
i already have 304402342300 to manage
#
donpdonp
"It pumps your life in and out of your friends" lolololo
#
tommorris
donpdonp: that sounds so colossally dodgy, it is unbelievable
#
kylewm
donpdonp: are you listening to that TINAP podcast?
#
donpdonp
tommorris: im still laughing. it sounds like the old line about "Coke adds life" being translated into Chinese with hilarious results
#
donpdonp
kylewm: thats from pumpit.info
#
kylewm
I think evan got a kick out of registering silly domain names
#
tommorris
I was going to say it sounds like a very incestuous version of Tinder
#
kylewm
pumpdog.me is the worst
#
kylewm
or best
#
kylewm
donpdonp: so on that podcast, a guy sings a song he wrote about pump dot eye-oh and that's the chrous, it's pretty great
#
donpdonp
kylewm: orly. haha
#
tantek
hey aaronpk does that mean you're ready for some tells?
#
snarfed
tantek: thanks, looks good! (re #Could_Bridgy_be_decentralized.) i'll add some detail.
#
tantek
thanks much snarfed!
#
tantek
(have seen this question a few times at least - definitely worthy of FAQ)
#
bnvk
whenever I read Pump.io's tagline, I think of the life pump machine from Princess Bride http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbgyppGqBgg
#
kylewm
bnvk++
#
Loqi
bnvk has 9 karma
#
kylewm
he's only mostly dead
#
johncash
So much hate for evan today ;)
#
bnvk
hehe
#
kylewm
johncash: are you reading it as hate? i don't think it's intended that way!
#
johncash
I'm being hyperbolic
#
bnvk
johncash: you? never.
#
johncash
:P
#
donpdonp
thats better than hypergolic
#
kylewm
just learned what hypergolics were recently
brianloveswords joined the channel
#
johncash
tantek: are webmentions not showing up on your site intentional?
#
tantek
johncash as much as any lack of implementation is intentional
#
johncash
thought it might be a privacy thing or something
#
kylewm
johncash: tantek is more methodical than some of us :)
#
bnvk
i've contemplated the hiding my webmentions from others for that reason
#
snarfed.org
edited /Bridgy (+294) "/* Could Bridgy be decentralized */ mention app engine"
(view diff)
#
bnvk
especially things backfed from Facebook which might have user privacy settings
#
tantek.com
edited /Falcon (+317) "/* event posts */ note explicit process and show webmentions as part of making event posts work"
(view diff)
#
kylewm.com
edited /pump.io (+20) "summarize/remove duplication"
(view diff)
#
tantek
johncash, webmentions will likely show up on my site as a side-effect of me implementing /event posts: http://indiewebcamp.com/Falcon#event_posts (which is fairly down the line of priorities of what I'm working on)
#
snarfed
bnvk: do you do your own backfeed! bridgy is definitely careful to only backfeed fully public responses. https://www.brid.gy/about#missing
#
snarfed
s/!/?/
#
Loqi
snarfed meant to say: bnvk: do you do your own backfeed? bridgy is definitely careful to only backfeed fully public responses. https://www.brid.gy/about#missing
#
snarfed
is amazed that worked without quoting
#
bnvk
snarfed: hrm, I currently use Bridgy
#
bnvk
glad to hear you handled that :)
#
kylewm
I have wondered whether people would still be surprised to see their comments on a public post show up somewhere else
paulcp joined the channel
#
kylewm
actually I wonder if I should add something like that to the BY-CC bit at the bottom of my site ... "Comments are copyright their respective owners" or whatever
#
johncash
is there an indieweb equivalent of direct message?
#
tantek.com
edited /likes (+485) "put a thumbs up as likes are displayed that way in FB, add explicit IndieWeb and Silo examples sections"
(view diff)
#
johncash
snarfed++
#
Loqi
snarfed has 38 karma
#
tantek
what is direct messaging?
#
Loqi
messaging refers to one user sending another user a message http://indiewebcamp.com/direct_messaging
#
tantek
hey those of you that display "Likes" received on your posts - could you add yourselves here? http://indiewebcamp.com/likes#IndieWeb_Examples (with examples of URLs of yours showing likes)
#
gRegor`
Related to people possibly being surprised their comments appear on my site, there's no easy way to remove it from my site if they remove it from FB, is there?
#
snarfed
gRegor`: it's kind a bridgy feature request. https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/9
glennjones joined the channel
#
snarfed
(you'd have to handle 410 webmention sources)
brianloveswords joined the channel
#
gRegor`
I do. It's not something I'm likely to run into, just a thought
#
kylewm
I did have someone reply to me on twitter and then delete their reply cause it was sensitive or whatever
#
kylewm
and I had to awkwardly be like "hey sorry I noticed you deleted that, should I delete it from my site too?"
#
snarfed
kylewm: they didn't realize their tweets were public? or was it just a mistake?
#
kylewm
neither :)
#
kylewm
just decided they didn't want it out there
#
tantek
ah yes the pilgrim protocol
ShaneHudson joined the channel
#
tantek
snarfed, Known handles 410 webmention sources
#
snarfed
tantek: totally! one of the few (i'm guessing)
#
tantek
p3k also
#
tantek
those two implementations were how we tested the proof of concept and decided it was a workable protocol
#
ShaneHudson
Has there been much announced about Known yet? How it differs from the current idno?
#
tantek
known == current idno
#
ShaneHudson
Ah, I thought it was a new version / rebuild
#
bnvk
rebrand
#
ShaneHudson
Yeah Known does seem much more user-friendly from the branding point of view
paulcp joined the channel
#
gRegor`
Known supports MySQL too, where I think idno was only MongoDB
#
gRegor`
plumbing, I know
#
@gasull
RT @kevinmarks: "The Internet took off because common protocols let everything network. Not so our data. Everything is siloed." #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/491335817894567936)
#
ShaneHudson
Oh, I thought it used a similar flat file to the one tantek has been using
#
gRegor`
I need to make my <title> more meaningful on my note permalinks, so some "likes" can be more meaningful: https://snarfed.org/2014-07-20_gregorlove-com-little-g-big-r
#
snarfed
gRegornobacktick++
#
Loqi
gRegornobacktick has 3 karma
#
gRegor`
I thought at first you'd just liked my homepage
#
@durgeshskumar
here's Your Own Content Presenter which will remain Yours till Eternity! http://indiewebcamp.com/ | @indiewebcamp
(twitter.com/_/status/491336770923929601)
#
gregorlove.com
created /known (+19) "redirect"
(view diff)
benwerd joined the channel
#
Loqi
benwerd: tantek left you a message on 7/20 at 5:48pm: do you have POSSE comment copies deduping somewhere on the Known task list? E.g. http://werd.io/2014/although-sometimes-you-do-want-to-control-the-json-withknown#comments
#
Loqi
benwerd: tantek left you a message on 7/20 at 5:50pm: deduping documented here: http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention#deduping
#
Loqi
benwerd: tantek left you a message on 7/20 at 5:52pm: interesting that http://werd.io/2014/a-api-talk-at-reclaimyourdomain-btw-with-microformats-you-dont shows less content (thread) than its "Also on: Twitter" POSSE copy: https://twitter.com/benwerd/status/490958867803537408 any thoughts about making Known posts as rich as (or richer than) their Twitter POSSE copies?
#
Loqi
benwerd: tantek left you a message 3 hours, 45 minutes ago: because W3C Social Web WG *just* launched *today*
#
benwerd
tantek: re: deduping, definitely
#
Loqi
benwerd: tantek left you a message 3 hours, 39 minutes ago: yes I'm giving you a hard time for reading and linking to a *CNET* article instead of a better, more indie source. ;)
#
Loqi
benwerd: johncash left you a message 2 hours, 18 minutes ago: do you have a business model for known?
#
benwerd
aiieee
#
Loqi
benwerd: johncash left you a message 2 hours, 18 minutes ago: do you have a business model for known?
#
benwerd
speaking of deduping
#
benwerd
tantek: re: context, that's also on the list
#
benwerd
tantek: point taken re: the cnet source ;) although I do think curated media outlets still have an important role to play
#
benwerd
working his way down
#
ShaneHudson
What Twitter clients do you all use? I've got POSSE working (to some extend) on my site, not activated yet, but I know I won't use it unless I'm using a client to reply to other people.
#
benwerd
tantek: congratulations again about the working group - really an awesome step
#
benwerd
johncash: Known does have a business model. Freemium service coming soon
#
benwerd
support and other services available for self-hosters, including extra tools for people deploying across organizations
#
tantek
benwerd - another comparison - the likes on comments on a post shown on the post itself, e.g.: https://e14n.com/evan/note/s4sLsySKS_C9Ac1Mu80k3Q see comment by Claes Wallin and the two "likes" shown on it
#
tantek
while that's still only a single piece of software doing it (pump.io), it is happening across *three* sites. the likes are on identi.ca on a comment on microca.st which is commenting on a post on e14n.com
#
benwerd
tantek: yes. Full context including context of replies / surrounding thread is definitely on the roadmap.
#
benwerd
We're changing the way that whole piece gets displayed and implemented over the next few weeks
#
tantek
cool - will be interesting to see where the boundaries are
#
benwerd
Part of ownership = fully understanding the interactions on the things on your site
#
benwerd
sitting on a Bolt Bus so Internet may come in and out btw
#
gregorlove.com
edited /Idno (+1) "fix double redirect (yo dawg)"
(view diff)
#
tantek
I see it as a goal as not having to click through to a POSSE copy to see *more* interaction.
#
tantek
that is, having your own site have a proper superset of the interactions across POSSE copies
#
tantek
and then I think it's reasonable to always include a permashortlink with every POSSE copy
#
tantek
since you're stating that yes, my original post will have *at least* as much information as this POSSE copy, and likely more, since it will included Indieweb interactions and *other* silo POSSE backfeed interactions
#
tantek
is not sure where to capture this observation, perhaps in /permashortlink ?
#
benwerd
will experiment with this
#
tantek
looks forward to seeing permashortlinks on benwerd's POSSE copies
#
cuibonobo
permashortlinks seem a little… pushy to me
#
tantek
cuibonobo: they're like watermarks for your copies
#
benwerd
I originally turned them off because of complaints - contemplating checking referer and adding a "what is this?" note. And possibly some other rough prototypes of the reader experience.
#
tantek
so if/when people copy your content, their copies point back to your original
#
benwerd
ooh, Bolt Bus adds ads all over my site without asking me. My favorite
#
tantek
has had some experience with random sites / feeds / Twitter accounts copy my tweets without attribution or linking
#
cuibonobo
tantek: i get your justifications for them. still, they skew a little bit religious fanatic for my taste
#
tantek
cuibonobo: what's religious about them?
#
gregorlove.com
edited /Builders (+0) "fix double redirect"
(view diff)
#
tantek
they're supposed to be genuinely useful to the reader - to discover your original site (with richer display / interaction of the content)
#
cuibonobo
tantek: the evangelizing part. “no THIS is the REAL version of my data”
#
ShaneHudson
I don't like the links, not quite so bad when it is just text like yours are.
#
tantek
is that evangelizing or a clear statement of ownership?
#
cuibonobo
i don’t write my name on everything i own
#
benwerd
watermarking is actually a clearer explanation of why they're useful for me
#
tantek
is a declaration of independence "evangelizing"?
#
brennannovak.com
edited /Respect_Network (+209) "/* Uses complex standards */"
(view diff)
#
gregorlove.com
edited /Builder (+0) "fix double redirect"
(view diff)
#
cuibonobo
tantek: you’re preaching to the masses to free their data from the clutches of the silos!
#
cuibonobo
hallelujah!
#
cuibonobo
still, it’s a turn-off for some people.
#
tantek
cuibonobo: I agree - different audiences will respond differently
#
tantek
cuibonobo: it can also be perceived as a form of bragging - hey I've got my own website where I post this stuff first, do you?
#
gregorlove.com
edited /Builders (+0) "fix double redirect"
(view diff)
#
tantek
that's a lot of redirect fixings ;)
#
cuibonobo
tantek: yep.
#
gregorlove.com
edited /Creators (+0) "fix double redirect"
(view diff)
#
gRegor`
There's quite a few of them. :)
#
gregorlove.com
edited /push (+8) "fix double redirect"
(view diff)
#
gregorlove.com
edited /ATOM (+0) "fix double redirect"
(view diff)
#
gregorlove.com
edited /building_blocks (+9) "fix double redirect"
(view diff)
#
gregorlove.com
edited /Comments (-1) "fix double redirect"
(view diff)
#
gregorlove.com
edited /Replies (-1) "fix double redirect"
(view diff)
#
gregorlove.com
edited /github-pages (+0) "fix double redirect"
(view diff)
#
gregorlove.com
edited /indo (+1) "fix double redirect"
(view diff)
#
gRegor`
Allllmost done
#
gregorlove.com
edited /private_message (+2) "fix double redirect"
(view diff)
#
gregorlove.com
edited /Reply (+2) "fix double redirect"
(view diff)
#
gregorlove.com
edited /Web_actions (-1) "fix double redirect"
(view diff)
#
bretolius
cuibonobo the cool thing about all of this is that you leave out links if you want!
#
bretolius
:)
brianloveswords joined the channel
#
kylewm
bret++
#
Loqi
bret has 19 karma
#
cuibonobo
bretolius: haha indeed
#
gRegor`
Fin
tantek joined the channel
#
bretolius
tantek re https://e14n.com/evan/note/s4sLsySKS_C9Ac1Mu80k3Q lots on AS and JSON-LD. I know pump.io builds around AS and has quite a few users/instances… where does indieweb stuff (Webmention, microformats, indieauth and micropub) find its place in the WG?
#
bretolius
or are you in the position to have to introduce all of this?
tallpaul joined the channel
#
tantek
bretolius: see social wg charter, specifically: http://www.w3.org/2013/socialweb/social-wg-charter.html#iwc
#
tantek
bretolius: I was invited to co-chair specifically to help bring #indiewebcamp tech, deployments, ideas, methodologies to the SocialWG
#
tantek
kylewm, re: APIs, see indiewebcamp.com/API
#
tantek
thanks bretolius
#
bretolius
it looks like evan declared PR bankruptcy a month ago
#
kylewm
yeah, I think when he ported from JS to CoffeeScript
#
bretolius
oh btw im just bret…. username is messed
#
bretolius
eeewww
#
bretolius
thats right
johncash joined the channel
#
bretolius
that made me :( because now I cant read the code any more
protman joined the channel
#
kylewm.com
edited /pump.io (+6) "/* Rejected pull request for microformats */ clarify close intention"
(view diff)
#
bretolius
"In the same time, I'm going to deal with the long list of pull requests and open issues with pump.io. The PRs will either get a reply, get pulled to 0.4, or closed. The issues will get put into milestones for 0.4 or "maybe later" or "probably never"
#
johncash
is there a feed anywhere on this page? https://e14n.com/evan
#
bretolius
"Finally, I'd very much like to do a Kickstarter for the home pump server I discussed last year. I think it could be a lot of fun, and really help people get onto the network." Johannes? you there?
#
bretolius
johncash you can grab rss somehow i forget
#
bretolius
or there is a pump to to rss bridge somewhere
#
kylewm
bretolius: where are you reading that?
#
gRegor`
Dang, pumpio loads a lot of data theough javascript.
#
bretolius
gRegor` yes… i think the entire interface does
#
bretolius
err is loaded via js
#
gRegor`
Sure looks like it.
#
johncash
new data standard?
#
bretolius
the actual server is all JSON i think
#
gRegor`
johncash: !standards returns that xkcd too, haha :)
#
bretolius
!standards
#
bretolius
lol
#
bnvk
when too many standards emerge, it probably has a hand in driving people to embrace "open" (read closed) API's
#
johncash
microformats is probably my favorite structure. you don't need an api just serve the webpage and parse the content
#
tantek
johncash++ :)
#
Loqi
johncash has 1 karma
#
johncash
why have data styling in one stream and data only in another stream. might as well put all the data in the stream that already has data
#
johncash
s/data styling/data and styling/
#
Loqi
johncash meant to say: why have data and styling in one stream and data only in another stream. might as well put all the data in the stream that already has data
#
@xtof_fr
Pourquoi Le Web est Cassé & Comment le Réparer ? #tonictuesday @agence50a Clique #indieweb bienvenue ! #RSVP http://christopheducamp.com/b/2014-07-22/15228173/
(twitter.com/_/status/491351536916635649)
#
kylewm
why the web is broken and how to fix it :)
#
bnvk
I've been wondering about the idea of @usernames inside of email content so to enrich the experience of when one is mentioned in an email. Has anyone come across that sort of thing?
#
bnvk
it would also work well for email threads that are publicly viewable, as @username could be parsed to then show relevant user context data
#
kylewm
bnvk: wouldn't you need some centralized arbiter of who is which @username?
tantek joined the channel
#
tantek
Does "email" imply SMTP or is that just plumbing?
#
bnvk
kylewm: well depends, one approach could be in an address book within a users given email client
#
bnvk
another could be a browser extension pulling from one's IndieWeb side address book
#
tantek
Assuming we get /messaging working well, could we simply call that "email"?
#
bnvk
tantek: tricky question, I think of email being both the message data format + SMTP transport
#
tantek
Then an "email on the public web" is just another post
#
@teknotus
@caseorganic @aaronpk have you seen https://sandstorm.io/ user friendly indieweb software installation.
(twitter.com/_/status/491355487661592576)
#
tantek
Why must the user concept of email require the plumbing of SMTP?
#
tantek
What is sandstorm?
#
bnvk
tantek: yah, an email on the public web takes on more of a post type IMO
#
tantek
I recall shaners musing about POSSEing from his site to a public mailing list.
#
tantek
What is sandstorm.io?
#
bnvk
tantek: sandstorm is a server side software deployment solution / web app environment thingy
#
kylewm
the author came to HWC once
#
bnvk
similar to IndieBox
#
tantek
Hmm thought there was wiki page on it
#
bnvk
it's in /store
#
bnvk
it's built with some interesting paradigms and tech like protocol buffers
#
tantek
Thought we had a separate page with issues
#
bretolius
you have seen this right?: http://bcc.npdoty.name
#
bretolius
(the layout specifically)
#
tantek
Sounds like I'm confusing sandstorm with something else
#
tantek
Bnvk could you stub /sandstorm.io with what you said above?
#
tantek
If I ever started a silo I'd be tempted to call it sandcastle.something and once in a while a big wave would crash and wipe out the sandcastle a that people had built there.
#
tantek
s/sandcastle a/sandcastles
pauloppenheim joined the channel
#
Loqi
tantek meant to say: If I ever started a silo I'd be tempted to call it sandcastle.something and once in a while a big wave would crash and wipe out the sandcastles that people had built there.
#
bnvk
tantek: sure, doing it now
#
tantek
Thanks bnvk !
#
bnvk
tantek: do you know about any progress re: the wiki redesign? cc: aaronpk peat
#
tantek
Bnvk no. I tried it and couldn't stand it more than an hour. Too broken / unusable.
#
bnvk
what is broken the old site or the new skin?
#
tantek
I mean so obviously so that anyone living in the wiki could see the usability problems
#
tantek
The new skin
basal joined the channel
#
bnvk
is there a link to it?
#
aaron_pk
I told you making a new wiki skin is hard ;)
#
bnvk
all I saw after camp was the github
#
tantek
Problem is that no one who worked on the new design actively edits / uses the wiki
#
tantek
So I'm like meh
#
gRegor`
It is on my list to tweak the CSS on that.
#
gRegor`
And make the responsive a bit better.
#
aaron_pk
the problem is everyone who edits the wiki regularly doesn't have an issue with the current skin because we're all used to it
#
tantek
No I have plenty of issues with the current skin
#
gRegor`
I will gladly listen to feedback on the new skin and work on implementing it. I think it's a good step forward, but still needs tweaks.
#
tantek
But the new skin is drastically worse in terms of usability
#
gRegor`
Esp. a good step forward for people new to IWC
#
bnvk
tantek: what key points are worse?
#
tantek
It's still a huge step backwards
#
aaron_pk
I don't think they touched the editing screens at all
#
aaron_pk
and MW does a lot of weird stuff with form layout on those screens
#
tantek
Bnvk typography 101 - lines are too long
#
tantek
Really basic web design errors
#
aaron_pk
so the default "make default html forms look better" doesn't work
#
tantek
Clearly shows those working on it are not daily wiki users feeling the pain of their changes
#
basal
Is there any reason the sidebar was switched from the left to right?
#
bretolius
i have been using the new skin… my primary gripe is the events along the edge on every page
#
gRegor`
aaron_pk: What improvements would you like on the edit screen?
#
gRegor`
The left sidebar was eliminated, and necessary links consolidated into the top bar.
#
tantek
Lots of spacing is just super awkward
#
aaron_pk
yeah like the comment box and submit buttons
#
tantek
Like the layout as a whole looks jumbled
#
bnvk
I see, all in all too bad
#
tantek
Inter line spacing is bad
#
gregorlove.com
edited /User:Gregorlove.com (+23) "/* Interests */ Tweak new wiki theme"
(view diff)
#
aaron_pk
I guess it's not bad for a half day of work, but definitely still needs work
#
bretolius
The wikitools drop down should be the edit button, and then have the other tools drop down on hover
#
tantek
Right, not bad for half a day of work, but still not as usable as current skin
#
tantek
Also, hiding common links under a menu (turning one click of common actions into two clicks) is a major usability regression.
#
gRegor`
ooh ooh, this might be a first for me.
#
gRegor`
tantek: Could you capture these on the wiki? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/redesign#Issues :D
#
tantek
This is what I mean by those that redesigned don't actually use / edit the wiki day to day
#
tantek
Gregor the problems were so numerous and seemingly obvious To a daily user that I didn't bother. It smelled like no one that worked on it was bothering to dogfood daily.
#
gRegor`
I ask because I use the new theme and am going to tweak it.
#
bret.io
edited /wiki/redesign (+511) "/* Issues */ added my primary issues"
(view diff)
#
gRegor`
I do already recognize several of the things you've said though
#
tantek
Edit, history should be single clicks
#
gRegor`
But, memory . . . hah
#
bretolius
i rarely look at history personally
#
bretolius
rare enough that I kinda like it out of the way
#
tantek
I look at history all the time
#
bretolius
i look at history via Loqi mostly
#
tantek
Good way of seeing what's new since I last looked at this page
#
bnvk
Personally I have always found the wiki relatively obnoxious- the underlying technology, syntax, and sites information architecture. I wonder if we'd be better off with a WordPress site for public "new user" information and such and an instance of Gitlab for actually working on things
#
tantek
I like to look at several diffs at a time which the history page let's you do.
#
bretolius
yeah… it may just be that I dont know these trix
#
gRegor`
Are we referring to a mousever as a click? Re: Edit and History?
#
bnvk
both have relatively structured data input forms and such
#
bnvk
and the theming of WP is quite easy
#
gRegor`
Ew.
#
aaron_pk
splitting into two sites would be a huge step backwards
#
gRegor`
WordPress--
#
Loqi
WordPress has -2 karma
#
aaron_pk
because the "public" one will always immediately be out of date
#
tantek
Bnvk yuck
#
bretolius
gRegor`I am referring to mouse over
#
tantek
What aaronpk said
#
GWG
WordPress++
#
Loqi
WordPress has -1 karma
#
bnvk
yah, wtf with the WP hate?
#
bnvk
WordPress++
#
Loqi
WordPress has 0 karma
#
gRegor`
It's awful.
#
GWG
bnvk: Exactly
#
bnvk
aaron_pk: why would it "be out of date" ?
#
aaron_pk
also I would *much* rather interact with content in mediawiki than wordpress. takes too many steps to edit things in wordpress
#
sparverius
wait whats wrong with wordperess
#
aaron_pk
bnvk: because it's harder to edit in wordpress, and we'd all be working on the "non-public" site anyway
#
sparverius
i run a couple of wordpress installationns and ive gotten good at the dark art of extracting all of the posts out
#
snarfed
thinks it's amusing that wp love here generally comes from people who *use* it, and hate comes from people who don't
#
bnvk
I don't actually use WP
#
aaron_pk
i've used my fair share of wordpress
#
aaron_pk
including writing themes and extensions
#
GWG
Nothing is perfect, but what is wrong with it?
#
bretolius
gRegor` were you helping with the wiki redesign?
#
aaron_pk
and running non-blogs
#
sparverius
i use wp a lot, and ive written extensions
#
bnvk
I've only developed 3 WP sites in my life
#
sparverius
GWG: some people dont like the interface. fair.
#
gRegor`
bretolius: I did not help on the hack day, but I was very interested in it.
#
bretolius
since then?
#
sparverius
GWG: it was really complicated and they reimplemented save/edit/versioning flows in a weird way
#
gRegor`
And I am going to be working on it, now
#
sparverius
i think wp is a lot better with the latest versions and also autoupdate
#
bnvk
I started making Social-Igniter because I thought WP sucked too much back in 2009
#
sparverius
wordpress is closer to CMS than it is to blog
#
snarfed
autoupdate++
#
Loqi
autoupdate has 1 karma
#
bnvk
whatever, figured i'd throw the idea out there- i'm not too attached it
#
GWG
What software hasn't gotten better over time?
#
sparverius
for technical users trying to collaborate a wiki is the way to go
#
bretolius
itunes
#
gRegor`
snarfed: Oh, I've used WordPress with clients plenty, thus my dislike. :)
tantek joined the channel
#
sparverius
GWG: when wordpress started becoming a CMS vs a blog software, it got much worse for a while
#
sparverius
and then they had security issues
#
snarfed
gRegor`: fair enough!
#
bnvk
the current site is definitely not alluring to new users- many ppl at camp in Berlin found it challenging to engage, navigate or gain any value from
#
GWG
sparverius: You mean like every popular platform?
#
tantek
Snarfed nope. Tried and gave up.
#
tantek
WP sucks for collab editig
#
johncash
is there an indie web directory?
#
gRegor`
didn't really intend to start a software war over it though
#
sparverius
“Every program attempts to expand until it can read mail. Those programs which cannot so expand are replaced by ones which can.”
#
gRegor`
So uh, yeah, about those wiki redesign issues... :)
#
snarfed
tantek: oh agreed. i was thinking of the hate for using it as a personal CMS
#
sparverius
“Every program attempts to expand until it can function as a CMS. Those programs which cannot so expand are replaced by ones which can.”
#
snarfed
gRegor`: nah that'd be too productive
#
aaron_pk
I would like to see the new wiki design improved, it's definitely on the right track
#
sparverius
there i just updated jwz's email law to 2014 web software standards
#
aaron_pk
also everyone here is welcome/encouraged to help improve the information architecture on the wiki, especially the home page
timbray joined the channel
#
gRegor`
Thanks for the contrib, bret. Everyone else feel free to capture issues here: http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/redesign#Issues
#
aaron_pk
complaining that "new users" find it hard to navigate the wiki is not sufficient reason to suggest replacing it with something else. I guarantee whatever would replace it would be harder to put content into
#
bretolius
gRegor` aaron_pk Ill start using it day to day and see what bothers me
#
tantek
No for personal I can see that it works for some
#
tantek
But also experience
#
tantek
As in bnvk , I challenge you to show me a public community effort that works like that where the public home page doesn't just go stale in months.
#
tantek
As for my own anecdotal I will offer microformats.org where we basically tried the split bnvk is suggesting and all the WP "public" pages went out of date while the /wiki media wiki is what everybody updated.
#
aaron_pk
bretolius: cool. I tried that but then switched back because I actually wanted to get stuff done :(
#
tantek
Eventually we've been migrating more and more of the WP public content pages to the wiki.
#
tantek
Joh cash see /irc-people for example ;)
#
tantek
s/Joh cash/johncash
#
Loqi
tantek meant to say: johncash see /irc-people for example ;)
#
tantek
Damn iOS autocorrect.
#
bretolius
aaron_pk what was getting in your way?
#
bnvk
I also find the wiki hard to engage with. Right now "create a stub" I don't have this mental processes of what that process is. I have to hunt and peck between existing pages
#
tantek
Snarfed the hate (in this case) is only for the misconception of using it for a collaborative community site.
#
gregorlove.com
created /User:Gregorlove.com/redesign (+3262) "for testing wiki CSS"
(view diff)
#
bnvk
I find the wiki syntax annoying, because of too many flavors of markdown, and it's own idiosyncracies
#
aaron_pk
bretolius: i can't remember exactly
#
bretolius
it would be cool if there was like a Ghost style wiki editor
#
snarfed
tantek: agreed in this case. there's some low grade ongoing hate for it as an indieweb platform too though, hence the previous negative karma. i'd guess some of that is just because it's big, but probably not all
#
bnvk
and overall it just lacks structure of how to easily go publish / edit a given type of content… but you all are much bigger users than I am, so do what ya will, I just wonder how much more myself (and others) would use something slightly easier ;)
#
snarfed
tantek: not a big deal though, not worth doing anything about
#
tantek
Hence why I am not giving WP any neg karma
#
tantek
bnvk: Wordpress is not easier for collab editing, that's your mistake
#
tantek
snarfed: Clearly WP has proven itself as a flexible indieweb publishing solution, if only by the adoption numbers.
#
gRegor`
My "go to" demo of why I dislike WordPress is this function. WP adds magic quotes regardless of server settings, or the fact that PHP is getting rid of the "feature." http://codex.wordpress.org/wp_magic_quotes
#
tantek
And generation penetration too. I think WP is the only solution that gen 2 folks have started using so far for indieweb functionality.
#
tantek
Such external measurements are an important metric
#
tantek
Known is a distant 2nd (for now ;) )
#
bnvk
tantek: what is the ultimate goal of collaborative editing?
#
tantek
Then p3k (with two users). Then everything else afaik has only one user, the selfdogfooding developer.
#
tantek
Bnvk up to date information that is reasonably readable/accessible.
#
snarfed
tantek: re gen 2 people, also blogger, tumblr, and wp.com!
#
tantek
Thus editing usability is quite paramount.
#
bretolius
https://www.w3.org/wiki/Activity_Streams has a nice list if AS implementations
#
snarfed
but agreed, self-hosted wp is probably be the most important
#
gRegor`
tantek: Using this page as a comparison, http://indiewebcamp.com/User:Gregorlove.com/redesign, line lengths are actually longer on the current wiki theme vs the new. Not usually by more than a couple words, but yeah.
#
tantek
snarfed: Blogger and tumblr are a different camp since they still have silo TOS
#
snarfed
tantek: hmm. i expect all of our hosting providers and ISPs have TOSes. if you bring your own domain, are blogger/tumblr materially different?
#
tantek
gRegor`: That was not my experience
#
tantek
With typical pages
#
tantek
Even just the home page looked uglier in the new theme
#
bnvk
tantek: yah readable / accessible information that is up to date- that makes sense, I just don't understand why you think a WP page is somehow less easy for multiple people to edit at different points in time
#
gRegor`
New theme is: "Helvetica Neue", "Helvetica", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;, old is just: sans-serif. Hm
#
gRegor`
"It looks uglier" is harder for me to act on :)
#
bnvk
furthermore, there are all sorts of WP plugins for things like events that give data (and the input forms) structure and order. The current events page in wiki syntax feels like an ad-hoc jungle
#
tantek
The content provisions are very different
#
tantek
Claims to ownership of your content etc
#
tantek
Providers and ISPs prefer to have "common carrier" like status
#
tantek
Where they don't regulate anything except the minimum reqd by law like DMCA.
#
tantek
Whereas silos overreach greatly in their TOSes
#
brennannovak.com
edited /web_hosting (+32) "/* Home Hosting */"
(view diff)
#
snarfed
tantek: understood in general…but for blogger and tumblr specifically, you actually know that they claim to own your content? or something similar? hard to believe, but if you say so, i'll believe you
#
gRegor`
bnvk: I have a template in progress (practically complete) that will make events much easier. /Template:one-day-event
#
bnvk
gRegor`: that sounds great :)
#
johncash
tantek: i deleted my facebook because of the creepy experimentation stuff. so i hear you on the silos overstepping
#
bnvk
once I get a bit of free time (after sept) I will definitely step up to the plate to help redesign the site if it's not done by then (even if it's still on wiki) :P
#
bnvk
johncash++
#
Loqi
johncash has 2 karma
#
kylewm.com
uploaded /File:responsive-navbar-firefox-2014-07-21.png "responsiveness problems with new theme on smaller screens"
#
kylewm.com
uploaded /File:responsive-navbar-firefox-smaller-2014-07-21.png "responsiveness problems with new theme on smaller screens"
#
bnvk
how do I do a link to an anchor in wiki syntax [[web_hosting#Personal_Clouds personal clouds]] ?
#
kylewm.com
edited /wiki/redesign (+257) "/* Issues */ add responsive screenshots"
(view diff)
#
aaron_pk
wiki links are [[page_name#whatevs|display text]]
#
aaron_pk
anchor is optional, same syntax
tantek joined the channel
#
bnvk
aaron_pk: thanks ;)
#
bnvk
so the pipe
#
kylewm
oh wow, Foundation seems to really muck up the line-height of <textarea>s
#
gregorlove.com
edited /User:Gregorlove.com/redesign (+35) "/* Long Text Section */"
(view diff)
#
aaron_pk
the pipe separates the page name from the display text in wiki links
#
aaron_pk
for external links it's just a space :(
#
aaron_pk
[http://example.com Example]
#
aaron_pk
not my favorite part of MW syntax
#
bnvk
yep… that's the sorta stuff that bugs the hell out of me
#
bnvk
everytime I want to add a page or do something, I dread it
lukebrooker joined the channel
#
kylewm.com
edited /wiki/redesign (+89) "add note about textarea lineheight"
(view diff)
#
tantek
Darn mobile colloquy dropped me and a bunch of stuff I typed.
#
snarfed.org
edited /Tumblr (+258) "TOS/content ownership"
(view diff)
#
tantek
johncash: Did you document your quitting of FB? Link to it from /silo-quits
#
gRegor`
tantek: How is this? http://indiewebcamp.com/User:Gregorlove.com/redesign#Long_Text_Section Ignoring the width of the column, just the line length of that section. It's ~75 characters, which is a common satisfactory line measure.
#
johncash
Nope. I didn't make a big deal of it. I just hit delete. I forget it's even gone until people talk about facebook
#
tantek
Wow I can't even copy paste the text I typed in before
#
tantek
And this is why I hate native mobile apps
#
tantek
They lack simple things like copy paste of text
#
gRegor`
Should clarify I mean on the new theme.
#
bretolius
colloquy mobile needs some lovin
#
kylewm.com
edited /wiki/redesign (+42) "/* Issues */ thumbnail screenshots"
(view diff)
#
tantek
This is why mobile web apps are going to win. Native apps just lack fundamental features, and are super crashy
#
bretolius
tantek http://palaverapp.com/ is a decent replacement…. before ios fucked it over
#
bretolius
ios7
#
gRegor`
thanks, kylewm!
#
kylewm
gRegor`: sure! i'm a little bit concerned
#
kylewm
some of this seems like fundamental problems with the framework
#
gRegor`
Mediawiki, you mean, or the base CSS theme?
#
kylewm
line-height, spacing, isn't that what the framework is *for*
#
kylewm
talking about Foundation
#
bretolius
"when we aggregate the electricity it takes to watch one hour of video streaming via broadband systems of server warehouses and telecommunications networks, we discover that an individual mobile device uses more electricity than two new refrigerators.” http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/greening-the-media/201407/don-t-be-fooled-the-abundance-green-apps
#
brennannovak.com
created /sandstorm (+867) "Created page with "{{stub}} '''<dfn>[https://sandstorm.io Sandstorm]</dfn>''' is open source software [[project]] that aims to make self-hosted [[web_hosting#Personal_Clouds| personal clouds]].ea...""
(view diff)
#
bnvk
bretolius: wat! that's crazy
#
bretolius
Thats what on demand centralized systems cost
#
tantek
bnvk: Don't stress too much about wiki syntax. Just get the text & links in there and someone else will help fix :)
#
bnvk
tantek: noted ;)
#
bnvk
I just hate leaving things messy
#
snarfed.org
edited /Blogger (+635) "TOS/content ownership"
(view diff)
#
snarfed
(for the logs: Tumblr and Blogger's TOSes both explicitly say that users retain ownership and copyright over all content they post. both are obviously limited in other regards, but it's good to know at least that part won't prevent people from using them as valid indieweb sites.)
#
gRegor`
There's some weird things in Foundation. Like h4 is text-transform: uppercase
#
gRegor`
for no apparent reason. All other headings are normal case.
#
bnvk
that should be configurable, no?
#
gRegor`
The CSS? Sure. That's what I'm working on now. :)
#
kylewm
one thing i really like about the redesign is it has a favicon :)
timbray joined the channel