#indiewebcamp 2014-07-21

2014-07-21 UTC
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gRegor` That output is correct per the spec and textDocument, as far as I can tell.
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tantek salanto see and feel free to contribute to: http://indiewebcamp.com/planet
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KartikPrabhu bear: fixed!
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bear KartikPrabhu \o/
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@MarkMorvant RT @benwerd: Publish on your Own Site, Syndicate Elsewhere (one of my slides from #reclaimyourdomain). #indieweb https://twitter.com/benwerd/status/491000692773879810/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/491010001440215040)
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KartikPrabhu bear: turns out "six" was not installed because I have to do "pip install --user six ".... who the F#%@ is supposed to tell me that!
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tantek salanto also agreed about "stuff I post on the internet I don't want on twitter" - or rather, I'd like to get to the point where I can trivially post little things on my site as much as I like, without feeling the burden to self-censor/self-rate-limit due to cross-posting to Twitter(&FB).
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bear KartikPrabhu - oh my word
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tantek but for now, since my posting UI is crap, that slows me down enough to only post once in a while and thus not too bothersome for those that follow on Twitter/FB
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salanto My indiesite is hosted on my laptop. My view is that it's my data that im giving people permission to view. Not some server that I have permission to write to
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salanto I only POSSE things I want people to see when I close my computer
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tantek salanto - sure, your local copy of your site as the "truth" and some server on the web as a "cache" of that :)
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tantek salanto - do you have more than one device you write on? or browse/favorite/comment on?
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salanto tantek: Write on as in create the post content, or store the content?
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tantek the former
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tantek e.g. I type stuff on 2-3 laptops and an iPod
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salanto Ah, I have a ton of devices that I use to view/write stuff with
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salanto my phone is my primary input device
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tantek how do you send your writings on your phone to your laptop canonical copy of your indiesite?
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salanto I pull up my laptop's website on my phone and create a post over the web
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home.tylergillies.club edited /planet (+33) "/* Planet Sites */" (view diff)
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tantek salanto - like peer to peer? over your local wifi network?
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tantek and ***.club*** <--- what?!?
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salanto tantek: My laptop is publicly accessible from the internet
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salanto tantek: .club domains are only like 2 dollars a year from namecheap
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salanto ICANN went balls out. They even have .ninja now
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tantek salanto next I'm imagining you having an always on (and on the internet) raspberry pi tiny box in your back pocket that has your true/canonical data that you post to.
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salanto tantek: Actually I have a publicly accessible native ipv6 address on my rooted android phone that I am tempted to setup an indie site on, the only problem is that most people don't have ipv6 access from their isp yet
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salanto They could use the sixxs ipv6 proxy to get to my site I suppose
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KartikPrabhu where is /planet aggregating anything?
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tantek on planet.indiewebcamp.com of course, as the page says ;)
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salanto notices the winky face
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KartikPrabhu tantek: that just redirects to the homepage
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tantek KartikPrabhu: typically such redirects are an indication that something has yet to be implemented.
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tantek !tell benwerd do you have POSSE comment copies deduping somewhere on the Known task list? E.g. http://werd.io/2014/although-sometimes-you-do-want-to-control-the-json-withknown#comments
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek.com edited /webmention (+38) "/* Issues */ id deduping" (view diff)
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tantek !tell benwerd deduping documented here: http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention#deduping
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek !tell benwerd interesting that http://werd.io/2014/a-api-talk-at-reclaimyourdomain-btw-with-microformats-you-dont shows less content (thread) than its "Also on: Twitter" POSSE copy: https://twitter.com/benwerd/status/490958867803537408 any thoughts about making Known posts as rich as (or richer than) their Twitter POSSE copies?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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mko tantek: I don't think benwerd has implemented recursive inreplyto (aka tweetstorms) like Twitter has.
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tantek mko - I don't really care what the underlying technique is (recursive whatever), but rather, the user visible difference between screenshots of those two URLs.
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tantek s/difference/differences
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Loqi tantek meant to say: mko - I don't really care what the underlying technique is (recursive whatever), but rather, the user visible differences between screenshots of those two URLs.
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mko Yeah. Agreed. I was just letting you know what the disconnect between the two was.
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tantek maybe, I mean, do you know how Twitter is actually coded? because I don't. hence I prefer to speak only at the user level for such things.
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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bret.io edited /planet (+49) "/* Planet Sites */" (view diff)
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TeddyJ I am thinking about setting up indieweb for my family and have a few questions...
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mko Hi, TeddyJ. Welcome to the IndieWeb!
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TeddyJ 1. I have pre-teen kids - should they each have their own domain or will subdomains do?
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mko That's up to you. Either would work fine.
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TeddyJ 2. They currently only have an instagram account. Does this support rel=me?
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tantek TeddyJ instagram does support rel=me yes
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tantek but I don't know if Indieauth (for example) supports auth via Instagram
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mko TeddyJ: I do not believe that Instagram is set up on IndieAuth, though, currently.
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TeddyJ So, without indieAuth, they would still sign in with email address?
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mowens.com edited /planet (+21) "/* Planet Sites */" (view diff)
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tantek TeddyJ they could get setup on Persona with their email address
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mko TeddyJ: If you weren't familiar with Persona, https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/persona/
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TeddyJ If I have a domain: example.me, How do I register the subdomain: name.example.me?
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mko TeddyJ: The subdomain just needs to be added with your DNS provider to point to the relevant hosting provider IP address or folder. It varies from provider to provider.
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TeddyJ Is there a FAQ or wiki entry having to do with children on IndieWeb?
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TeddyJ ..CHildren having their own domains I mean
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mko Not that I know of.
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TeddyJ Thanks for you help!
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mko Sure thing.
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salanto Speaking of children on indie web, the wife said she wanted to make internet of things baby toys for our kid
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mko related, salanto: http://www.disneyresearch.com/project/calipso-internet-of-things/
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mko The code is even open sourced for it
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salanto mko++
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Loqi mko has 5 karma
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salanto woo i did it: http://phone.tylergillies.club.ipv4.sixxs.org/
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mko Geezus that's a long URL. lol
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mko It does work though. :-)
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salanto phone with an ipv6 address publicly accessible over ipv4 internet
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mko That's unique and highly interesting.
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salanto phone.tylergillies.club works on its own if your isp has ipv6
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mko Yeah, yeah. Don't rub it in.
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mko ;-)
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salanto you can get a free tunnel to enable ipv6 from tunnelbroker.net
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salanto the computer im on right now is through a tunnel
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mko I'm actually just waiting on Comcast for a new modem/gateway. IPv6 is supported on my line, but apparently the gateway they sent me when I signed up originally doesn't support it.
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salanto mko: I have the same situation for this router I'm on now
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salanto Ironically my modem has ipv6 support it just doesn't work with comcast's ipv6 network
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salanto how they managed that one is beyond me
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salanto Gonna try to throw a copy of Known on my Phone
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salanto Hey, thats kinda catchy
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snarfed hey kylewm, I'm afk and saw a error spike on bridgy soon after the deploy. would you mind taking a look if you're around?
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snarfed kylewm: actually nm, looks like it was transient. I'll look later
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snarfed kylewm: saw the logs, looks like it's missing an index that's probably in your index.yaml. feel free to push that to upstream and deploy if you want! otherwise I will soon
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@Postatic @Postatic - you can now export your member data to CSV file - http://self.postatic.com/site/contents/content/18703 - #ownyourdata (twitter.com/_/status/491057130988769280)
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kylewm !tell snarfed omg i broke everything :(
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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kylewm I found the file you were talking about and deployed but I didn't any of the right api keys! ack
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kylewm OMG christmas is canceled
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salanto YES!
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salanto just what i was looking for https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.andi.serverweb
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JonathanNeal kylewm: you put Christmas back right away.
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salanto I'm compiling a feed list of all indie web feeds, anyone want to contribute theirs?
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Loqi snarfed: kylewm left you a message 1 hour, 31 minutes ago: omg i broke everything :(
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snarfed for the logs, kylewm and i talked offline, everything is fine :P
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@aaronpk @kevinmarks @drewmeyers @kmccoy @arrington This is basically what FireEagle was supposed to be. I want an #indieweb version of that so bad. (twitter.com/_/status/491087181981560832)
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salanto Why does no one release a full indie web stack?
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salanto most of them are closed source with open source modules
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salanto compiling mongodb…. on my phone
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kylewm salanto: the open source question is one i asked too. i think the idea is basically: it's rEAlly hard to release and support a full product, and aaron et al feel they can serve the community better by experimenting with their sites and then releasing battle-tested code in small libraries
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snarfed there definitely are full open source stacks though
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snarfed e.g. known and wordpress
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snarfed and redwind, kylewm?
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salanto I hesitate to call wordpress an indieweb stack
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kylewm someone besides me tried/is trying to run Red Wind
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kylewm fwiw
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snarfed kylewm: cool!
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snarfed salanto: eh. if you only consider stuff people in this community wrote, that's pretty restrictive, and not very useful
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snarfed also, the vast majority of indieweb citizens, ie people publishing mf2 and sending/receiving webmentions, are on wordpress
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snarfed known is probably second
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salanto ah
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salanto good to know
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kylewm I think it would be good question for a FAQ though
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kylewm "how do I install Indieweb?" :P
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kylewm "Why can't I just have p3k/taproot/Falcon?"
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mko I'm planning on releasing Indie.js (http://indiejs.com) as soon as I have a single working instance and then updating it as I go.
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mko My goal is to have a single app that can be downloaded, dropped on a server, and then started up via an install script.
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mko I only started on it about 2 weeks ago, though, so I'm not sure how long it'll be before it's out. Hoping to release my personal site at the end of this week as the "alpha" of it, then make some of it a bit more generic, then release v0.0.1-alpha on GitHub.
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/jmenglund03/490907211145555968/14530526 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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@infoMGWV @t @chloeweil @indiewebcamp followers 10,000 free #MGWV http://koo.re/xi3Fh (twitter.com/_/status/491120294715604992)
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@infoMGWV @t @chloeweil @indiewebcamp . followers 10,000 free #MGWV http://koo.re/xi3Fh (twitter.com/_/status/491120331726155777)
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bear !spammer infoMGWV
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Loqi Only aaronpk and tantek can do that
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bear !tell tantek twitter user infoMGWV is a spammer
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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tantek !spammer infoMGWV
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bear :)
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tantek that's quite clever Loqi
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Loqi tantek: bear left you a message 18 seconds ago: twitter user infoMGWV is a spammer
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Loqi Got it! There are now 14 spammers blacklisted
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tantek mko that's an awesome goal for indiejs - will be good to see Known get some competition ;)
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tantek and I agree with snarfed's anecdata on usage of various software projects to "get on the indieweb"
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salanto I'm trying to get my phone server setup and i just wanted a one click install
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salanto wordpress is what im currently going with
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tantek salanto: wordpress is currently the easiest initial install though I think Known is getting better and better. Pretty sure they are testing a version that runs on MySQL (not mongodb)
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salanto ubuntu is a bit too brittle on my phone to play nice with a complicated setup
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tantek Twitter has poor block/report spam handling, poor even by silo standards
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tantek on Flickr, Facebook, blogging platforms in general, if you block an author or delete a comment, it's gone from your post. On Twitter, it's only hidden *from you*. E.g. I blocked that spammer bear saw, and if you view this: https://twitter.com/t/status/490312706650431489 you will see it still has two comments from that spammer (I can see it on a non-logged-into-twitter browser)
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@t just informed my manager of @chloeweil's passing - I barely held it together. He'd met her @IndieWebCamp NYC in April. (ttk.me t4X91) (twitter.com/_/status/490312706650431489)
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salanto tantek: its not your data to control ;)
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petermolnar2 good morning
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petermolnar2 I'm trying to test-install known with nginx, php 5.4 php from dotdeb, debian 7
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petermolnar2 right next to the wordpress install I have a main site
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petermolnar2 no luck so far: I end up with a top bar ( New Known Site, search ,sign in, register ), and no content apart from a known logo
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petermolnar2 no error messages in php / syslog
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petermolnar2 can anyone point me to debug log on/off location? :)
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bear php5 writes the debug log based on, IIRC, the path stored in /etc/php.ini
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bear but finding where your php.ini is located can sometimes be fun
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petermolnar it should, yes
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petermolnar I'm aware of that
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petermolnar E_ALL level is set, no logs from known
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petermolnar from wordpress, yes
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petermolnar I was asking for Known debug options :)
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bear how are you calling php5 from nginx? php-fpm or ???
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petermolnar PHP-FPM, yes, the PHP log therefore shows up in nginx error log
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bear not always, i've seen some php apps where the app log is in the root dir, in /usr/local/.… - but i'm also not a php5 dev and was just trying to help
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bear goes back to lurking
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cweiske did I understand the oauth1 rfc correctly - scopes are not supported?
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Loqi [mention] http://known.petermolnar.eu/2014/trimming-the-fat-tha-big-bad-cleanup-of-my-wordpress linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/selfdogfood (webmention)
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petermolnar heh
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petermolnar that was a test post, which died in the middle of the process
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petermolnar known is out of options for me: the content is stored as json blob in mysql when you're using the mysql layer
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petermolnar that's not really optional
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cweiske question is how to store a number of distinct types in the same table
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@cpjobling RT @benwerd: Publish on your Own Site, Syndicate Elsewhere (one of my slides from #reclaimyourdomain). #indieweb https://twitter.com/benwerd/status/491000692773879810/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/491191777966436352)
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@thesuzettebrown Good morning - @TheKindleWhispe eggs with the Bacon? Thank you for the https://www.youtube.com/ #indieweb #Author #Reading #Books (twitter.com/_/status/491207782792966144)
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@thesuzettebrown Good morning - @TheKindleWhispe eggs with the Bacon? Thank you for the http://linkis.com/www.youtube.com/CvPnE #indieweb #Author #Reading #Books (twitter.com/_/status/491207789180911616)
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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@harperdimmerman RT @thesuzettebrown: Good morning - @TheKindleWhispe eggs with the Bacon? Thank you for the http://linkis.com/www.youtube.com/CvPnE #indieweb #Author #Re… (twitter.com/_/status/491213387989528577)
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@TheKindleWhispe RT @thesuzettebrown: Good morning - @TheKindleWhispe eggs with the Bacon? Thank you for the http://linkis.com/www.youtube.com/CvPnE #indieweb #Author #Re… (twitter.com/_/status/491214149436055553)
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frzn hi :)
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cuibonobo frzn: hello!
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tantek good morning cuibonobo frzn!
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cuibonobo morning tantek :)
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tantek good morning all - the call for participation in the W3C Social Web Working Group just went out to all W3C Advisory Committee members (member-only list), and I'm happy to report that the home page of the group is a wiki page :) http://www.w3.org/Social/WG
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tantek I want to encourage everyone in #indiewebcamp to consider participating (I'm a co-chair), whether officially or unofficially
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tantek since you're on IRC, please feel free to jump on the #social channel on irc.w3.org:6665
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barnabywalters I never understand W3C call minutes. what’s timeboxing?
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tantek barnabywalters: this is close: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeboxing
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barnabywalters and what’s the difference between nick: text and indentented nick: text in a grey box?
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tantek I think the grey box is /me text
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tantek (thus unofficial side commentary)
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tantek oops no
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tantek nick: text is official minutes (taken by the minute taker)
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tantek and indented nick text in grey box is direct IRC statements from that person
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tantek all /me text is not logged
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barnabywalters got it
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@RikMende @glynmoody @w3c @evanpro sounds like #indieweb ? #webmention #federated #socnet @indiewebcamp (twitter.com/_/status/491226849490796544)
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@glynmoody @RikMende @w3c @evanpro @indiewebcamp haven't had a chance to read it, so couldn't comment sensible, I'm afraid... (twitter.com/_/status/491227061227651072)
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gRegor` Morning, indieweb
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cuibonobo good morning gRegor`
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barnabywalters morning gRegor`
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@evanpro @RikMende @glynmoody @w3c @indiewebcamp @t is my co-chair (twitter.com/_/status/491228048021131264)
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tantek and as those tweets imply, public post: http://www.w3.org/blog/news/archives/3958
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KartikPrabhu tantek: does there exist some sort of broad outline of what this Social Web Working Group is shooting for?
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KartikPrabhu like a problem definition of sorts
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tantek KartikPrabhu: yes the "broad outline of what a Working Group is shooting for" is called a "Charter" in W3C-speak
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tantek which is linked from the top of the home page: http://www.w3.org/Social/WG
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KartikPrabhu oh cool thanks
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KartikPrabhu w3c has such formal sounding names for things :P
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KartikPrabhu unrelated: I've had 2 people now tell me "this Medium.com also has that thing you made" about marginalia
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barnabywalters so what does being an “Invited Expert” involve?
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tantek barnabywalters: http://www.w3.org/2004/08/invexp.html
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tantek KartikPrabhu: that's funny that people are now seeing your marginalia before Medium.com :)
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barnabywalters I love how you have to *apply* to be an *invited* expert
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KartikPrabhu tantek: it is a highly biased sample set of my friends so not wise to draw conclusions
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barnabywalters tantek: to look at the application requires a username and password
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tantek at top of that page
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tantek http://www.w3.org/accounts/recover
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tantek and if that doesn't find you, https://www.w3.org/accounts/request
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barnabywalters ah, is that the same as the wordpress signin for community groups or something else?
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tantek not a wordpress sign-in
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barnabywalters no, but maybe they use the same database
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tantek but community groups may be re-using the same w3c id
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tantek right
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tantek barnabywalters: is there sufficient information here about participation and how to become an invited expert? https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg#Participation
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barnabywalters tantek: it’s not at all clear what “invited experts” are actually supposed to do, but otherwise yes
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tantek I suppose that's a broader question - but in short, participate. :)
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barnabywalters okay, application for invitation sent
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@RikMende @evanpro @glynmoody @w3c @indiewebcamp @t very good news to avoid duplicate work/path, time to implement what already exists for me (twitter.com/_/status/491243597652824064)
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tantek I'll point out that the Social Web WG charter http://www.w3.org/2013/socialweb/social-wg-charter.html directly links to IndieAuth.com , /Webmention http://microformats.org/wiki/h-entry http://microformats.org/wiki/h-card and http://microformats.org/wiki/h-cite
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KartikPrabhu has the w3c now moved on from XML to JSON ?
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Loqi [mention] http://www.w3.org/2013/socialweb/social-wg-charter.html linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] http://www.w3.org/2013/socialweb/social-wg-charter.html linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention (webmention)
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cuibonobo tantek: could you clarify the abbreviations in the Milestones chart? the only one i think i can grok is Rec = recommendation (??)
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KartikPrabhu cuibonobo: mouse-over to see full forms
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cuibonobo KartikPrabhu: aha! thank you!
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KartikPrabhu :)
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barnabywalters see if the W3C worked like indiewebcamp, someone would have made http://www.w3.org/wiki/Milestones already
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cuibonobo the goals seem respectable, but the end-result ends up being too far away for me. i need to implement something as of yesterday
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gRegor` You're in the right place then, cuibonobo
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gRegor` :)
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tantek barnabywalters: heh. W3C doesn't have Loqi. :)
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Loqi dude
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tantek cuibonobo: agreed. I think a lot of the "real work" will happen here frankly, and I see my role as chair to attempt to bridge communication with that broader audience, pointing / referencing the good work done in #indiewebcamp
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cuibonobo gRegor`: yep! i’m actually taking ideas from several places. indiewebcamp is my primary resource for getting my website display app to play nice with other sites. i’m getting ideas for how to actually store my stuff from the tent.io community
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tantek (as opposed to W3C going off an inventing a bunch of new complex enterprise stuff that no one implements)
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kylewm tantek: the first link on http://www.w3.org/2013/socialweb/social-wg-charter.html is a 404
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tantek kylewm: good catch - that should be http://www.w3.org/Social/WG
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gRegor` That's interesting, cuibonobo. How is tent.io storing things?
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kylewm ah, thanks
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gRegor` tantek: the archive link "public-socialweb-comments@w3.org (archive)" is 404
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barnabywalters in other words, it’s a way of getting the W3C official stamp of approval on indiewebcamp stuff, which is important to a lot of people
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cuibonobo gRegor`: the idea is to have a RESTful API of the data itself in JSON format and then have apps to consume that data in different ways. apps could range from scrobblers to the app that actually renders your website.
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tantek barnabywalters: that and having W3C efforts reference (rather than duplicate) indiewebcamp work
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cuibonobo gRegor`: however, i’m not subscribing to tent.io wholesale because they’re very focused on the protocol and have left actual real-world stuff behind
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barnabywalters cuibonobo: that sounds like a sensible approach — reuse the useful work they’ve done and ignore the unproductive bits
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tantek cuibonobo: "the app that actually renders your website" is an interesting viewpoint, since we're taking the simpler approach that your rendering of your website is your data (i.e. for interaction with webmentions etc.)
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tantek 10 years ago people were building "RESTful API of the data itself in XML format"
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tantek etc.
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tantek kylewm that broken link should now be fixed
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kylewm tantek++
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Loqi tantek has 51 karma
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cuibonobo tantek: i don’t subscribe to the idea that the HTML is simpler. for instance, i feel like a plaintext JSON file is easier to digest than plaintext HTML. but more than that, my goal is my data, not my website. my site is just a way to render my date.
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cuibonobo *data
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tantek cuibonobo: over time I'd assert that the HTML is actually the most stable reliable "form" of your data.
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tantek for the "easier to digest" need - that's why there's a canonical JSON representation of microformats2, and parsers that produce it
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tantek the idea is that longevity, reliability, stability is the most important thing for your data. And historically so far HTML has been better at that than XML, or JSON
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tantek despite supposedly being a "presentation" format
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tantek but I understand the current fashionability of JSON. Also good to have different folks pursuing different approaches.
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tantek some folks are using Markdown as the canonical form of their data, which has some good long term usage experience as well
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cuibonobo tantek: i would question the longevity of HTML. for instance, we’ve had a shift in perspectives about what HTML tags we should actually use: http://www.martinrinehart.com/frontend-engineering/engineers/html/html-tag-history.html
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cuibonobo tantek: and i believe microformats were completely redone fairly recently
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tantek with backward compat for past microformats
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tantek with actually more well defined rules than before
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tantek thus original microformats now have a canonical JSON representation that they never did when originally published
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tantek which HTML tags have shifted in particular?
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barnabywalters well marked-up classic microformats are parsed seamlessly by commonly used microformats2 parsers
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tantek (we've known to ignore presentational HTML markup for a *very* long time)
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cuibonobo tantek: back when i first started using HTML, presentational markup was still a thing! and i’m only 32
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tantek but to your point about original microformats - HTML+microformats have outlasted *all* the XML formats that were being pushed at the time. Even by big companies like Google and Yahoo.
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tantek originally XML was supposed to win over all this stuff
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tantek microformats was a scrappy simpler alternative
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mko I don't have time to get into a discussion right now, but I will say this: from my own experience, microformats parsing isn't consistent right now except across a limited subset of parsers. For example, mf2py, hkit, microformat-node, and sumo all produced different parsing results when I was trying to figure out why one of my articles wouldn't validate as an h-entry in my webmention module.
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tantek cuibonobo: when I first started to also (~1995), but by 1998 I'd been properly educated about it ;)
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mko The culprit? <article>
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mko It should be noted that mf2py resulted in a perfect parsing.
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tantek mko I thought others (kylewm?) said they saw no problem with <article>
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mko Using mf2py and php-mf2 there was no problem.
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cuibonobo tantek: my perspective is: what is this data for? if my primary use-case is to have a searchable repository, it doesn’t make sense to spend my time creating / maintaining HTML parsers that will then populate an index. databases already exist, so i’ll use that.
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cuibonobo the longevity of my data is a different problem entirely
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mko I've already filed issues with the others that didn't work with <article>
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cuibonobo i can’t expect to have data that is useful now and data that i can put in cold storage
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tantek cuibonobo: databases seem to transfer less well from system to system than flat files, hence a lot of us have rejected databases for any canonical storage.
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barnabywalters mko: IIRC hkit is no longer maintained, and is a classic microformats parser anyway
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tantek caching is fine for dbs
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barnabywalters same for sumo
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tantek basically, we can't be bothered with having to worry about being database admins
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mko barnabywalters: I had mf1 and mf2 embedded in the article itself. They both still should have worked.
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barnabywalters so it’s not reasonable to expect them to produce the same results as a microformats2 parser
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barnabywalters as there *was* no standardised form of output for classic microformats
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tantek hkit produced its own results anyway - there was no defined programmer output at the time
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mko Okay. I'll give you that for hkit and sumo
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tantek hkit is php right? perhaps it should be updated to just use phpmf2
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barnabywalters it’s only really meaningful to compare microformats2 parsers
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cuibonobo tantek: you’re right. databases are a pain to transfer. but am i going to delay the storage of my stuff while i implement a proper parser? i’d rather store my stuff now and figure out how to translate when the new hot thing comes along.
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tantek right, and the point is they produce consistent results, even with classic microformats (or rather they all should, modulo some issues / bug fixes)
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tantek cuibonobo: I guess enough of us have gotten bitten enough times with data loss from database hassles that we've given up on them
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tantek as canonical storage
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tantek and decided to eat the upfront dev cost of using flat files instead, for the sake of being free of future database-tax
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tantek but your're right, databases can be a good bootstrapping mechanism. it's how Known advanced so quickly in its feature set (IMO)
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cuibonobo tantek: i’m very new to this community, but it seems like the up-front cost is *much* too high compared to `brew install mongo`. plus: what if everyone moves to blockchain storage and namecoin as DNS within the next 10 years :D
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tantek so yes, it's still good to see different people pursuing different approaches.
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tantek lol blockchains. I think that's another fashion thing that will pass. :)
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tantek fair enough about up-front cost is *much* too high
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tantek which is also why those of us using flat files for storage have yet to open source that code AFAIK - storage is hard enough to get working for yourself, nevermind something others can depend on
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tantek (myself at least, I'm implying for aaronpk and others)
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tantek though … barnabywalters doesn't Taproot use flat files for storage?
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barnabywalters I use flat files and CSV indexes
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barnabywalters at some point I will move to using elasticsearch for indexing/querying, but CSVs are adequate right now
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androtest block chains are good for accounting and not much else
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tantek barnabywalters: and Taproot is 100% open source right?
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barnabywalters tantek: nope, only components listed on http://taprootproject.com
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tantek oh no sorry
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tantek just read: http://indiewebcamp.com/Taproot
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androtest like all the other ones ;)
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barnabywalters androtest: there are plenty of valid use cases — essentially anything where you need to be able to know that one thing happened before another
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tantek so that's my general point. a bunch of us are using flat files for storage, but yes, it's hard, so none of that code is not open source yet
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barnabywalters but it’s just moving the trust to the network rather than a trusted third party
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barnabywalters I have recently (places) run into cases where using my CSV indexes has blocked adding useful features, so elasticsearch has moved up a little in my priortity list now
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tantek if I came up with a decent abstraction for my flat file storage (in HTML+microformats) in Falcon I'd likely open source even just that bit in the hopes that someone else would find it useful.
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barnabywalters I think glennjones’ transmat storage is the closest thing to this so far — give it flat files and you get an API
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tantek cuibonobo++ for pursuing what's #selfdogfood productive in the short term. :)
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Loqi cuibonobo has 3 karma
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cuibonobo tantek: thanks :)
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tantek storage is "just" plumbing, and all the user features we get working on our sites are much more important :)
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cuibonobo exactly!!
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tantek (though some aspects of storage, like backup, restore, recovery are user-exposed features, and I think that's where some of the flat file vs. database tension comes from)
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tantek as a user I sleep better knowing my "data" is all in a simple folder I can copy around, rather than a series of exports/commandlines that talk to a database server somewhere
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tantek barnabywalters: interesting about Transmat - care to start a /Transmat stub?
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barnabywalters I would if I could find or remember the link to the API demo
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tantek wiki search?
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gRegor` barnabywalters: Is it this? http://store.transmat.io/
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barnabywalters gRegor`: that’s the one! thanks
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gRegor` cuibonobo: Are you using an existing /project to run your site, or setting up something custom?
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cuibonobo gRegor`: since i like the *idea* of tent.io but it’s becoming apparent that it’s not gonna be ready for at least a year, i’ve decided to roll my own thing. i’m using a lot of ready-made components though: Eve for the API, Flask for web apps, Mongo for storage
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cuibonobo gRegor`: i’ll be fully open-sourcing my journey here: https://github.com/jenmontes/piss
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gRegor` Haha "Yes, really."
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Loqi awesome
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tantek cuibonobo: awesome!
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tantek and now I've passed along the socialweb wg announcement with fewer words: https://twitter.com/t/status/491261750239457285
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Loqi [@t] W3C Social Web Working Group launched today:
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bear hands @t a huge helping of patience and grace
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bear you will need it for W3C work
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KartikPrabhu in confused about RESTful APIs how are they diff. from just a website?
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KartikPrabhu s/in/is
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Loqi KartikPrabhu meant to say: is confused about RESTful APIs how are they diff. from just a website?
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tantek KartikPrabhu++ :)
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Loqi KartikPrabhu has 51 karma
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KartikPrabhu oh i get it ;)
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bear a website with MF2 can be an API
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KartikPrabhu i mean why even mf2? if i just return nice HTML...
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cuibonobo KartikPrabhu: it’s just about adhering to HTTP protocols rather than inventing your own API. i think it was just a reaction to JSON RPC
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bear the nit I pick is that html is not cleanly structured
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KartikPrabhu bear: sure
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tantek JSON RPC?!? That's a thing. Wow.
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bear REST is more than just returning something from a request
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KartikPrabhu well all the RESTful API code seems to be database+JSON/XML ...
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KartikPrabhu and there seems to be a lot of "I want a RESTful API not a website" type sentiments
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Loqi gives KartikPrabhu a RESTful API not a website" type sentiments
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bear right - the REST "movement" was, as cuibonobo noted, a response to XML based RPC and other older call/response tech
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KartikPrabhu so I'm wondering if I am missing something
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bear your not
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bear it's a tool that service oriented or micro service oriented teams can use
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KartikPrabhu hmm cool
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bear IMO a good interface is the one that changes the result based on content-type
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barnabywalters the term REST is also almost as abused and misused as HTML5
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cuibonobo yeah that’s really it. you’re bound to HTTP verbs rather than trying to make up your own API, and the server shouldn’t save sessions. full stop.
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bear yes! html5 definitely muddied the waters when folks who didn't quite grok REST started to make sites
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KartikPrabhu bear: that's what I thought people did. apprently not
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barnabywalters so when people say they want a REST API rather than a website it’s worth digging down to see what they actually mean
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KartikPrabhu barnabywalters: most of my investigations ended up with "they got JSON data rendered with JS client-side"
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KartikPrabhu those are not actual quotes from someone
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KartikPrabhu <shrugs> this mostly sounds like HTTP is coming back into fashion
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KartikPrabhu for instance, there is Django and there is the django-rest-framework... which led to my confusion
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bear all big frameworks have tools/modules to enable REST(ish) routes to be defined
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bear heck REST got it's big push from the ruby-on-rails folks
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@t @evanpro oops. thanks for reminder & tweet id. #indieweb post updated http://tantek.com/2014/202/t1/social-web-working-group-launched-wiki-irc but not tweet POSSE copy. (ttk.me t4XC2) (twitter.com/_/status/491266515384020992)
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@benwerd @S_dF My last reply! ;) We're strongly aligned with the #indieweb community, which lays out its principles here: http://indiewebcamp.com/ (twitter.com/_/status/491277911320563713)
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Loqi [mention] http://werd.io/2014/s_df-my-last-reply-were-strongly-aligned-with-the-indieweb linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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@benwerd Not sure why the W3C social web working group is getting attention now, but nonetheless: http://www.cnet.com/news/w3c-tries-building-social-networking-into-the-web/ #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/491279668423577600)
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@torgo RT @benwerd: Not sure why the W3C social web working group is getting attention now, but nonetheless: http://www.cnet.com/news/w3c-tries-building-social-networking-into-the-web/ #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/491280405408923648)
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tantek !tell benwerd because W3C Social Web WG *just* launched *today*
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek oh sheesh - and he linked to the sad CNET article.
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@t @benwerd because @W3C Social Web WG *just* launched *today* http://tantek.com/2014/202/t1/social-web-working-group-launched-wiki-irc as noted on the #indieweb. Ahem. ;) (ttk.me t4XC3) (twitter.com/_/status/491281703785095169)
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tantek !tell benwerd yes I'm giving you a hard time for reading and linking to a *CNET* article instead of a better, more indie source. ;)
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek notes http://indiewebcamp.com/fitness to aaronpk, mko
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gRegor` !tell aaronpk #indiewebcamp main channel misses you. ;)
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronparecki.com edited /exercise (+218) "/* Silo Examples */ add runkeeper, note strava export" (view diff)
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jenmontes.com edited /User:Jenmontes.com (+135) "More Loqi-friendly, plus added my personal project." (view diff)
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gRegor` who is cuibonobo
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Loqi Jen Montes is and illustrator for Archer on FX and pokes at ideas in her free time http://indiewebcamp.com/User:Jenmontes.com
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cuibonobo hey! it works!
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gRegor` tada!
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mko Huzzah!
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tantek sweet!
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gRegor` s/and/an/ in your first sentence though :)
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cuibonobo good catch!
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cuibonobo gRegor`++
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cuibonobo aaw. does Loqi not like your backtick?
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Loqi woot!
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jenmontes.com edited /User:Jenmontes.com (-1) "/* Jen Montes */ Typo fix." (view diff)
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gRegor` Nope :/
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gRegor` We'll get it fixed one day. It worked for a bit, then Loqi got tired of it again
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cuibonobo weird.
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gRegor` I think some wiki code was updated and it wasn't in vc
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cuibonobo whoops
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gRegor` accepts karma at: gRegornobacktick
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mko gRegornobacktick++
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Loqi gRegornobacktick has 1 karma
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mko ;)
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cuibonobo haha!
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cuibonobo gRegornobacktick++
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Loqi gRegornobacktick has 2 karma
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gRegor` :)
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tantek.com edited /API (+114) "/* Fragility */ snowflakyness" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /API (+0) "/* Fragility */ typo" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /snowflakiness (+264) "stub" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /snowflakyness (+27) "r" (view diff)
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tantek what is snowflakiness?
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Loqi snowflakiness refers to the fragility (flakiness) of snowflake APIs http://indiewebcamp.com/snowflakiness
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kylewm did you coin that one, tantek?
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tantek just moments ago
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kylewm I like it
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@kevinmarks “A generative, networked system laced throughout with secrets.” —@robinsloan https://medium.com/message/the-secret-of-minecraft-97dfacb05a3c Minecraft, but could be the #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/491289740348366849)
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@timoreilly IndieWebCamp looks awesome http://indiewebcamp.com/ #indieweb via @benwerd (twitter.com/_/status/491291462798036992)
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@_jden RT @timoreilly: IndieWebCamp looks awesome http://indiewebcamp.com/ #indieweb via @benwerd (twitter.com/_/status/491291518943379456)
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@Freerange_Inc RT @timoreilly: IndieWebCamp looks awesome http://indiewebcamp.com/ #indieweb via @benwerd (twitter.com/_/status/491291583091060736)
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@manojpallai RT @timoreilly: IndieWebCamp looks awesome http://indiewebcamp.com/ #indieweb via @benwerd (twitter.com/_/status/491291850154999809)
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@haxor RT @timoreilly: IndieWebCamp looks awesome http://indiewebcamp.com/ #indieweb via @benwerd (twitter.com/_/status/491291916198109184)
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@OhhSocialMedia RT @timoreilly: IndieWebCamp looks awesome http://indiewebcamp.com/ #indieweb via @benwerd (twitter.com/_/status/491292208692486144)
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@promotionsweb RT @timoreilly: IndieWebCamp looks awesome http://indiewebcamp.com/ #indieweb via @benwerd (twitter.com/_/status/491292210764480514)
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mko Geezus.
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gRegor` Well there's IWC before 1.78M people. :)
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mko That's pretty cool that timoreilly tweeted about IndieWebCamp, though.
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@kevinmarks @timoreilly @benwerd I think you'd like it. Do you have a personal domain? http://www.oreilly.com/tim/ maybe? #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/491292377705762816)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/benwerd/491277911320563713/491292377705762816 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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tantek be nice to the new folks that may show up today via Tim's tweet!
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tantek (I mean, as you usually are. :) )
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/benwerd/491277911320563713/491289971597115392 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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@thehawaiiguy RT @timoreilly: IndieWebCamp looks awesome http://indiewebcamp.com/ #indieweb via @benwerd (twitter.com/_/status/491292777502605312)
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@ShaneHudson RT @timoreilly: IndieWebCamp looks awesome http://indiewebcamp.com/ #indieweb via @benwerd (twitter.com/_/status/491292822725996545)
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KevinMarks so tim.oreilly.com redirects to www.oreilly.com/tim - indieweb enough?
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/benwerd/491277911320563713/491291462798036992 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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tantek KevinMarks: no, and here's why: http://indiewebcamp.com/subdomains
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tantek LiveJournal already learned this lesson: http://indiewebcamp.com/lj2006
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KevinMarks well, tim does pretty much own oreilly.com
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@timbray @kevinmarks Huh, I guess I’m an #indieweb guy by virtue of having my own domain & using my own blog software. (twitter.com/_/status/491293444149489664)
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tantek.com edited /lj2006 (+238) "stub, link to subdomains" (view diff)
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tantek waits for KevinMarks to call out @timbray for not tweeting on his own domain ;)
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KevinMarks that would be a bit hypocritical of me
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tantek KevinMarks is too smart for me to sneak that one by him ;)
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@kevinmarks @timbray come join us in IRC, I think you'll like the company http://indiewebcamp.com/IRC (twitter.com/_/status/491294463877054464)
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tantek that's a good start
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KevinMarks tim O also retweeted that minecraft/indieweb analogy
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/benwerd/491277911320563713/491293444149489664 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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tantek KevinMarks link?
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/benwerd/491277911320563713/491293969200869376 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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KevinMarks https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/491289740348366849
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@kevinmarks “A generative, networked system laced throughout with secrets.” —@robinsloan https://medium.com/message/the-secret-of-minecraft-97dfacb05a3c Minecraft, but could be the #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/491289740348366849)
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KevinMarks welcome tim
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timbray hey
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/benwerd/491277911320563713/491294463877054464 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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mko Welcome, timbray
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timbray about to drop off as I leave for the airport for OSCON
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KevinMarks ah, I'm missing OSCON this year. I expect other indieweb people will be there
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@brianbehlendorf RT @timoreilly: IndieWebCamp looks awesome http://indiewebcamp.com/ #indieweb via @benwerd (twitter.com/_/status/491295608825585664)
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aaron_pk timbray: oh cool! I'm in PDX. We should probably do an indieweb breakfast one of these oscon days!
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KevinMarks I'd love to see your perspective on the indieweb principles - I think you already follow a lot of them
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@benwerd RT @timoreilly: IndieWebCamp looks awesome http://indiewebcamp.com/ #indieweb via @benwerd (twitter.com/_/status/491296007754219520)
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@KatMeyer RT @timoreilly: IndieWebCamp looks awesome http://indiewebcamp.com/ #indieweb via @benwerd (twitter.com/_/status/491296294552354816)
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Loqi [@benwerd] @timoreilly IndieWebCamp is awesome. I'm in Santa Rosa 50% of the time
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Loqi would love to come across & demo Known, p3k, tech we're all creating (http://twtr.io/ok3G4hNZEf)
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@kevinmarks @chuq @timbray the #indieweb principles are based on years of practice and realising that personal sites were no longer assumed (twitter.com/_/status/491296847575928834)
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@freemanindia RT @timoreilly: IndieWebCamp looks awesome http://indiewebcamp.com/ #indieweb via @benwerd (twitter.com/_/status/491296950721847297)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/benwerd/491277911320563713/491296847575928834 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/benwerd/491277911320563713/491296148200505345 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/benwerd/491277911320563713/491296828235591680 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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johncash Looks like Tim Oreilly is an indieweb fan
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gRegor` Hi, johncash. Yep, looks like it. :)
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bretolius gah #social is on the w3c irc network
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johncash DIDn't even know w3c had an irc network
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johncash !tell benwerd do you have a business model for known?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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bretolius johncash i think elgg was used by a lot of non profits… known would likely be of interest there. but I think the idea is that it would be useful to many more people
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@PSFourU RT @timoreilly: IndieWebCamp looks awesome http://indiewebcamp.com/ #indieweb via @benwerd (twitter.com/_/status/491303144752947201)
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bretolius johncash and the other is a hosted known service. thats all know of
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@tylergillies RT @timoreilly: IndieWebCamp looks awesome http://indiewebcamp.com/ #indieweb via @benwerd (twitter.com/_/status/491303390149087235)
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ShaneHudson Yeah I think a lot of people will find a hosted service for Known to be useful, makes it a little less 'geeky'.
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KevinMarks ideally a hosted service that includes buying and provisioning a domain too
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bretolius that would be rad
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@t @timoreilly Thanks! Would be great to do @IndieWebCamp in Sebastopol with actual camping! Could even invite tent.io :) (ttk.me t4XC4) (twitter.com/_/status/491305041827880960)
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bretolius ShaneHudson what software do you use to run your site?
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ShaneHudson Yeah, and a way to easily host elsewhere.
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tantek (ok so I thought the IndieWebCamp / camping / tent.io joke was funny ;) )
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ShaneHudson I use Wordpress at the moment, having a lot of troubles with it but has been too much work trying to move it elsewhere. I will probably use Known, as it has a lot of the extras I need (content types nicely done etc)
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bretolius ShaneHudson ah cool. it looked like it might have been done in jekyll or something similar
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ShaneHudson Ah nah, there are thousands of private posts etc :)
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bretolius oy
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ShaneHudson I kind of use it as a diary, though slowly trying to make more public such as bookmarks.
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ShaneHudson But I've had no time. Just finished my book and about to finish work. So should be able to find some time soon to make progress!
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ShaneHudson Biggest problem with Wordpress is the amount of memory usage it takes up with MySQL. I tried going file based but changed my mind
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bretolius caseorganic does something similar iirc
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tantek I don't think caseorganic uses WordPress
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mko I believe she uses p3k now like aaronpk does.
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KevinMarks hm, I wonder who I should ask at archive.org to add the fragmentions.js script to the web archive
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tantek who is caseorganic?
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Loqi http://indiewebcamp.com/User:Caseorganic.com
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KevinMarks that would be really handy
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tantek KevinMarks: that would be amazing
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mko Yeah. In the footer, it says it's powered by p3k
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@oparisy Why the Indie Web movement is so important http://dangillmor.com/2014/04/25/indie-web-important/ #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/491306718341505024)
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KevinMarks just needed it for this debate with spolsky
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tantek spolsky?
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tantek who is spolsky?
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bretolius tantek its a private instance… got to peek at it at os bridge :)
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tantek oh that thing
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bretolius i dont think p3k handles privacy in a very robust way
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bretolius yet....
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/glennjones/488649120286904322/53556469 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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snarfed ShaneHudson: i assume you've tried bumping WP_MEMORY_LIMIT up? i use 256M for mine. http://codex.wordpress.org/Editing_wp-config.php#Increasing_memory_allocated_to_PHP
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tantek so here's a question, when has this ever been a valid line of reasoning? "Not certain the Millennials & Gen Z would agree re the value prop" per https://twitter.com/S_dF/status/491289971597115392
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/jmenglund03/490907211145555968/53556469 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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@S_dF @benwerd thnx for the clarification. Makes sense now. Not certain the Millennials & Gen Z would agree re the value prop. (twitter.com/_/status/491289971597115392)
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ShaneHudson I have but my server is only 1GB RAM. Sadly. It costs a fortune too so need to host elsewhere when it runs out in October
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snarfed understood
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tantek "the Millennials & Gen Z" didn't build Twitter nor cause it to take off for example.
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kylewm boo strawgeneration
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KevinMarks "they'll never leave Bebo"
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ShaneHudson Hah
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tantek and FB took off by catering to a smaller (selfdogfood) crowd as well
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@grigs @t @timoreilly @IndieWebCamp 100% agree with this idea. (twitter.com/_/status/491308164197789698)
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KevinMarks I can't keep track of these generation handwaves. who qualifies as milennial?
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@teleject RT @grigs: @t @timoreilly @IndieWebCamp 100% agree with this idea. (twitter.com/_/status/491308295353671680)
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@schnarfed @S_dF @benwerd as an intermediate step, tumblr users can use http://www.brid.gy/ to participate in the #indieweb without migrating away. (twitter.com/_/status/491308361598504960)
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@teleject I third this idea! “@grigs: @t @timoreilly @IndieWebCamp 100% agree with this idea.” (twitter.com/_/status/491308379176857600)
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@ShaneHudson @S_dF @benwerd They will once the websites they use go down and they lose all their data. Like all of these: http://indiewebcamp.com/site-deaths (twitter.com/_/status/491308404343046144)
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kylewm KevinMarks: born 1980 - 2000
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tantek ShaneHudson++ well done
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Loqi ShaneHudson has 1 karma
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ShaneHudson I was born in 93, thereby I can say he is very much wrong :P
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tantek ShaneHudson: awesome! you can say that - hey I *am* a Millenial, and I'm all over the value prop.
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tantek maybe we need a video. a bunch of quick cuts of millenials saying "I'm a millenial, and I'm on the indieweb." ;)
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tantek in decentralized fashion, perhaps post a video of yourself saying so on your own site!
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tantek where's barnabywalters? :)
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ShaneHudson Hah a video of me? No chance :P
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tantek ShaneHudson I've seen you in person - I think you'd be great! :)
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KevinMarks so twitter was build by millenials then - Blaine was born in 1980
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ShaneHudson Hah thanks @tantek
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tantek KevinMarks: no I'd say Blaine is much more Gen X than Millenial
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KartikPrabhu Gen Z!!! <barf>
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tantek I mean, have *talked* to the guy? ;)
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tantek s/have/have you
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Loqi tantek meant to say: I mean, have you *talked* to the guy? ;)
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cuibonobo the problem with the “these youngsters will find out one day” argument is that when the day comes, I won’t remember your argument. what’s good about the indieweb *right now*?
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@jgarber RT @timoreilly: IndieWebCamp looks awesome http://indiewebcamp.com/ #indieweb via @benwerd (twitter.com/_/status/491309293384527872)
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KevinMarks I was his manager for a while...
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/benwerd/491277911320563713/53556469 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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tantek cuibonobo: when the day comes, the old arguments won't matter.
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tantek cuibonobo: the latter adopters will adopt because their friends and people they respect (or want to be like) are adopting.
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tantek Ev, Blaine, Jack are all very much more GenX like than Millenial like (re: Twitter)
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bear your all young'uns - get off my world-wide-web lawn!
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cuibonobo tantek: yes. exactly. so “they’ll come around once those websites go down” isn’t very attractive. if i recall, there’s a similar argument about databases on the wiki ;)
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bear starts a "bring back gopher and wais" campaign
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tantek no no that's different, that's more like, our databases *have* gone down, so we've abandoned them and going with what's not gone down - flat files :)
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tantek bear - gopher lost its chance by not open sourcing.
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tantek was a fan of gopher back in the day, so much more "organized" than the messy "web" thing.
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bretolius cyberspace
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/ShaneHudson/491308404343046144/783092 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/site-deaths (webmention)
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tantek so here's a question - how useful are the bridgy [mention]s here in IRC to people?
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/ShaneHudson/491308404343046144/11628 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/site-deaths (webmention)
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@kid_OYO ...heard round camp last week: "use a self-respecting data structure... not Facebook." kids aged 8-13 #vrm #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/491310693665472513)
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tantek does anyone ever click on them? and do they every give you something you're interested in?
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snarfed tantek: probably not much
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cuibonobo tantek: they would be more interesting with the actual text
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ShaneHudson Both of those mentions were already linked in here when I tweeted them
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ShaneHudson In fact, it is the same tweet.
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bretolius i click them
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cuibonobo i like to scan in IRC, so i don’t click much
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bretolius ::[
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@oparisy @t Is your favoring of my retweet a example of #indieweb possibilities (centralization of citations, etc.), or of a more trivial nature? :-) (twitter.com/_/status/491310940407607296)
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tantek ^^^ so that's like a reply to a "favorite"
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tantek if only my "favorite" had a permalink...
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tantek that that reply could be in-reply-to
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bretolius can I favorite your favorite?
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tantek sheesh and I haven't even gotten reposts (POSSE retweets) working yet. ;)
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snarfed tantek: aaronpk has mentioned wanting to fetch bridgy webmentions and render the contents, e.g. "John Doe retweeted XYZ on Twitter"
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tantek bretolius: you can favorite any URL
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tantek bretolius: you tell me - does your site support posting /likes or /favorites ?
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ShaneHudson Has there been discussion on decentralising bridgy?
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tantek ShaneHudson: it's open source so you can just deploy your own
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ShaneHudson Ah that's true
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kylewm snarfed: is it true that the Loqi bridgy mentions are always going to be someone replying/liking/retweeting a silo post that links to an indiewebcamp.com page?
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snarfed ShaneHudson: there are also other backfeed implementations. http://indiewebcamp.com/backfeed
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bretolius it does but its crappy. i get like 4 hours a week to work on my indieweb projects and 2 are spend trying to track down stupid bugs in my code
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snarfed kylewm: generally yes
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kylewm my feeling is that is pretty much never useful :)
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ShaneHudson snarfed: I'm using bridgy at the moment and do like how easy it is :) Just aware that it could stop working at some point.
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ShaneHudson I need to style my bridgy mentions actually, currently displaying as comments
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tantek.com edited /Bridgy (+363) "/* FAQ */ Could Bridgy be decentralized" (view diff)
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tantek snarfed is this about right? http://indiewebcamp.com/Bridgy#Could_Bridgy_be_decentralized
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KevinMarks yikes, do we need to add http://www.bbc.co.uk/ to /site-deaths ?
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tantek wat
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KevinMarks it's serving 500s
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tantek I'd wait and presume DDOS
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ShaneHudson Wow. They've been having trouble for about a week, but a 500 on homepage? Yikes.
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ShaneHudson They were running a simplified version beforehand, not sure why. Could be related.
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@visitlakeanna RT @kid_OYO: ...heard round camp last week: "use a self-respecting data structure... not Facebook." kids aged 8-13 #vrm #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/491313094920896513)
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tantek thought he saw something about Google Wave but can't see it in the logs so it must not exist.
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tantek cuibonobo: perhaps the answer is to skip Millenials and just get the next generation instead: https://twitter.com/kid_OYO/status/491310693665472513
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@kid_OYO ...heard round camp last week: "use a self-respecting data structure... not Facebook." kids aged 8-13 #vrm #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/491310693665472513)
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cuibonobo aaaw! :_)
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tantek.com edited /LiveJournal (+13) "/* See Also */ lj2006" (view diff)
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tantek cuibonobo: I know! Adorable right?
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bretolius "…if facebook ever tries to offer you candy..."
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tantek.com edited /LiveJournal (+301) "Notable Events, lj2006 switch to subdomains" (view diff)
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cuibonobo tantek: the curriculum for this program looks awesome. and for kids so young! oh man.
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aaronparecki.com edited /Posts_about_the_IndieWeb (+207) "add wordyard.com article" (view diff)
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tantek does anyone yet understand what's actually "respectful" or "network" about the "Respect Network"? as referenced http://www.wordyard.com/2014/07/03/indieweb-and-respect-network-two-roads-to-decentralizing-the-network/ (they seem to want to be a for-pay centralized registry of "=xyz" identifiers - not very networky, nor respectful of existing web identifiers - hey domain names)
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tantek see also http://indiewebcamp.com/Respect_Network
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KevinMarks how is XDI decentralising?
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tommorris XDI Zombies!
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aaron_pk "Email and phone verification is required in order to ensure that you are complying with the Respect Network One-Person-One-Account rule." from the Respect Network registration prompt
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aaron_pk also seems not very respectful :-/
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KevinMarks i find it amusing that @kevinmarks is an xdi identifier
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tommorris Yes gods that is fairly dumb
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tantek on a more productive note, see Evan's blog post about W3C Social Web WG: https://e14n.com/evan/note/s4sLsySKS_C9Ac1Mu80k3Q
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tantek note in particular all the interaction with the post below it, including the likes, "shares" (reposts), and replies
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aaron_pk !!! identi.ca was replaced with pump.io! https://identi.ca/
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tantek in particular note this comment on the post: https://microca.st/clacke/comment/7_QnqMCSTwuETjiUjlBOzQ which has two likes
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tantek and note that the original post shows both that comment and the fact that it has two likes!
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tantek across 3 different domains!
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tantek the likes came from identi.ca accounts to a reply posted on microca.st which itself is a comment on e14n.com
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kylewm pump.io speaks activitystreams, i wonder whether Known's json could talk to it
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tantek so the question is - does this all only work because it is a single piece of software (pumpio) - thus monoculture? or is something more interesting going on?
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tommorris Respect Network can safely be completely ignored. The combination of Google+ style identity verification horror show + XDI silliness made me have to check I had only had one drink.
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kylewm whether or not there is something more interesting going on, all those servers run the same software (pump)
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tantek kylewm: so monoculture once again. well, interesting proof of concept for the UI at least
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tantek and for having stuff work cross-site
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aaron_pk I would hope that there's nothing preventing other sites from integrating like that
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tantek aaronpk - I wouldn't presume that - as usually when it's the same piece of software, it means it's depending on software-specific behaviors (above beyond or excepting from any "standard" protocol/format)
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tantek as happened with identica/statusnet, then diaspora, now also tent
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tantek all of which can be deployed across sites to talk to their own software, but none with each other.
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bnvk the XDI of Respect Network is atrocious
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tantek tommorris, bnvk please add to http://indiewebcamp.com/Respect_Network#Criticism !
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johncash pumpit.info should really use something like indieauth
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johncash im not making any more passwords
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johncash im done
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kylewm.com edited /pump.io (+38) "/* Unknown Delay Adopting IndieWeb Standards */ pull request to add microformats2 closed" (view diff)
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johncash i already have 304402342300 to manage
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donpdonp "It pumps your life in and out of your friends" lolololo
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tommorris donpdonp: that sounds so colossally dodgy, it is unbelievable
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kylewm donpdonp: are you listening to that TINAP podcast?
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donpdonp tommorris: im still laughing. it sounds like the old line about "Coke adds life" being translated into Chinese with hilarious results
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donpdonp kylewm: thats from pumpit.info
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kylewm I think evan got a kick out of registering silly domain names
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tommorris I was going to say it sounds like a very incestuous version of Tinder
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kylewm pumpdog.me is the worst
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kylewm or best
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kylewm donpdonp: so on that podcast, a guy sings a song he wrote about pump dot eye-oh and that's the chrous, it's pretty great
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donpdonp kylewm: orly. haha
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tantek hey aaronpk does that mean you're ready for some tells?
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snarfed tantek: thanks, looks good! (re #Could_Bridgy_be_decentralized.) i'll add some detail.
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tantek thanks much snarfed!
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tantek (have seen this question a few times at least - definitely worthy of FAQ)
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bnvk whenever I read Pump.io's tagline, I think of the life pump machine from Princess Bride http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbgyppGqBgg
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kylewm bnvk++
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Loqi bnvk has 9 karma
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kylewm he's only mostly dead
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johncash So much hate for evan today ;)
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bnvk hehe
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kylewm johncash: are you reading it as hate? i don't think it's intended that way!
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johncash I'm being hyperbolic
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bnvk johncash: you? never.
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johncash :P
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donpdonp thats better than hypergolic
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kylewm just learned what hypergolics were recently
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johncash tantek: are webmentions not showing up on your site intentional?
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tantek johncash as much as any lack of implementation is intentional
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johncash thought it might be a privacy thing or something
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kylewm johncash: tantek is more methodical than some of us :)
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bnvk i've contemplated the hiding my webmentions from others for that reason
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snarfed.org edited /Bridgy (+294) "/* Could Bridgy be decentralized */ mention app engine" (view diff)
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bnvk especially things backfed from Facebook which might have user privacy settings
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tantek.com edited /Falcon (+317) "/* event posts */ note explicit process and show webmentions as part of making event posts work" (view diff)
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kylewm.com edited /pump.io (+20) "summarize/remove duplication" (view diff)
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tantek johncash, webmentions will likely show up on my site as a side-effect of me implementing /event posts: http://indiewebcamp.com/Falcon#event_posts (which is fairly down the line of priorities of what I'm working on)
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snarfed bnvk: do you do your own backfeed! bridgy is definitely careful to only backfeed fully public responses. https://www.brid.gy/about#missing
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snarfed s/!/?/
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Loqi snarfed meant to say: bnvk: do you do your own backfeed? bridgy is definitely careful to only backfeed fully public responses. https://www.brid.gy/about#missing
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snarfed is amazed that worked without quoting
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bnvk snarfed: hrm, I currently use Bridgy
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bnvk glad to hear you handled that :)
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kylewm I have wondered whether people would still be surprised to see their comments on a public post show up somewhere else
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snarfed kylewm: yup. http://indiewebcamp.com/backfeed#Discussion
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kylewm actually I wonder if I should add something like that to the BY-CC bit at the bottom of my site ... "Comments are copyright their respective owners" or whatever
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johncash is there an indieweb equivalent of direct message?
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tantek.com edited /likes (+485) "put a thumbs up as likes are displayed that way in FB, add explicit IndieWeb and Silo examples sections" (view diff)
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snarfed johncash: http://indiewebcamp.com/messaging
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tantek.com created /direct_message (+23) "r" (view diff)
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johncash snarfed++
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Loqi snarfed has 38 karma
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tantek.com created /direct_messaging (+23) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /direct_messages (+23) "r" (view diff)
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tantek what is direct messaging?
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Loqi messaging refers to one user sending another user a message http://indiewebcamp.com/direct_messaging
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tantek hey those of you that display "Likes" received on your posts - could you add yourselves here? http://indiewebcamp.com/likes#IndieWeb_Examples (with examples of URLs of yours showing likes)
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gRegor` Related to people possibly being surprised their comments appear on my site, there's no easy way to remove it from my site if they remove it from FB, is there?
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snarfed gRegor`: it's kind a bridgy feature request. https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/9
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snarfed (you'd have to handle 410 webmention sources)
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gRegor` I do. It's not something I'm likely to run into, just a thought
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kylewm I did have someone reply to me on twitter and then delete their reply cause it was sensitive or whatever
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kylewm and I had to awkwardly be like "hey sorry I noticed you deleted that, should I delete it from my site too?"
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snarfed kylewm: they didn't realize their tweets were public? or was it just a mistake?
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kylewm neither :)
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kylewm just decided they didn't want it out there
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snarfed ah
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tantek ah yes the pilgrim protocol
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/deleted
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tantek snarfed, Known handles 410 webmention sources
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snarfed tantek: totally! one of the few (i'm guessing)
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tantek p3k also
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tantek those two implementations were how we tested the proof of concept and decided it was a workable protocol
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ShaneHudson Has there been much announced about Known yet? How it differs from the current idno?
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tantek known == current idno
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ShaneHudson Ah, I thought it was a new version / rebuild
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bnvk rebrand
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ShaneHudson Yeah Known does seem much more user-friendly from the branding point of view
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gRegor` Known supports MySQL too, where I think idno was only MongoDB
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gRegor` plumbing, I know
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@gasull RT @kevinmarks: "The Internet took off because common protocols let everything network. Not so our data. Everything is siloed." #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/491335817894567936)
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ShaneHudson Oh, I thought it used a similar flat file to the one tantek has been using
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gRegor` I need to make my <title> more meaningful on my note permalinks, so some "likes" can be more meaningful: https://snarfed.org/2014-07-20_gregorlove-com-little-g-big-r
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snarfed gRegornobacktick++
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Loqi gRegornobacktick has 3 karma
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gRegor` I thought at first you'd just liked my homepage
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@durgeshskumar here's Your Own Content Presenter which will remain Yours till Eternity! http://indiewebcamp.com/ | @indiewebcamp (twitter.com/_/status/491336770923929601)
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gregorlove.com created /known (+19) "redirect" (view diff)
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Loqi benwerd: tantek left you a message on 7/20 at 5:48pm: do you have POSSE comment copies deduping somewhere on the Known task list? E.g. http://werd.io/2014/although-sometimes-you-do-want-to-control-the-json-withknown#comments
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Loqi benwerd: tantek left you a message on 7/20 at 5:50pm: deduping documented here: http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention#deduping
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Loqi benwerd: tantek left you a message on 7/20 at 5:52pm: interesting that http://werd.io/2014/a-api-talk-at-reclaimyourdomain-btw-with-microformats-you-dont shows less content (thread) than its "Also on: Twitter" POSSE copy: https://twitter.com/benwerd/status/490958867803537408 any thoughts about making Known posts as rich as (or richer than) their Twitter POSSE copies?
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Loqi benwerd: tantek left you a message 3 hours, 45 minutes ago: because W3C Social Web WG *just* launched *today*
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benwerd tantek: re: deduping, definitely
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Loqi benwerd: tantek left you a message 3 hours, 39 minutes ago: yes I'm giving you a hard time for reading and linking to a *CNET* article instead of a better, more indie source. ;)
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Loqi benwerd: johncash left you a message 2 hours, 18 minutes ago: do you have a business model for known?
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benwerd aiieee
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Loqi benwerd: johncash left you a message 2 hours, 18 minutes ago: do you have a business model for known?
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benwerd speaking of deduping
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snarfed heh
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tantek lol
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benwerd tantek: re: context, that's also on the list
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benwerd tantek: point taken re: the cnet source ;) although I do think curated media outlets still have an important role to play
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benwerd working his way down
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ShaneHudson What Twitter clients do you all use? I've got POSSE working (to some extend) on my site, not activated yet, but I know I won't use it unless I'm using a client to reply to other people.
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benwerd tantek: congratulations again about the working group - really an awesome step
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@kirilind RT @JockelLohkamp: Why the Indie Web... @indiewebcamp http://dangillmor.com/2014/04/25/indie-web-important/ #IoTPeople @OuiShare @OuiShareLabs #P2P @Gatesense_IoT @agorac… (twitter.com/_/status/491337750193647616)
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benwerd johncash: Known does have a business model. Freemium service coming soon
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benwerd support and other services available for self-hosters, including extra tools for people deploying across organizations
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tantek benwerd - another comparison - the likes on comments on a post shown on the post itself, e.g.: https://e14n.com/evan/note/s4sLsySKS_C9Ac1Mu80k3Q see comment by Claes Wallin and the two "likes" shown on it
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tantek while that's still only a single piece of software doing it (pump.io), it is happening across *three* sites. the likes are on identi.ca on a comment on microca.st which is commenting on a post on e14n.com
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benwerd tantek: yes. Full context including context of replies / surrounding thread is definitely on the roadmap.
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benwerd We're changing the way that whole piece gets displayed and implemented over the next few weeks
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tantek cool - will be interesting to see where the boundaries are
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benwerd Part of ownership = fully understanding the interactions on the things on your site
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benwerd sitting on a Bolt Bus so Internet may come in and out btw
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gregorlove.com edited /Idno (+1) "fix double redirect (yo dawg)" (view diff)
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tantek I see it as a goal as not having to click through to a POSSE copy to see *more* interaction.
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tantek that is, having your own site have a proper superset of the interactions across POSSE copies
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tantek and then I think it's reasonable to always include a permashortlink with every POSSE copy
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tantek since you're stating that yes, my original post will have *at least* as much information as this POSSE copy, and likely more, since it will included Indieweb interactions and *other* silo POSSE backfeed interactions
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tantek is not sure where to capture this observation, perhaps in /permashortlink ?
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benwerd will experiment with this
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tantek looks forward to seeing permashortlinks on benwerd's POSSE copies
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cuibonobo permashortlinks seem a little… pushy to me
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tantek cuibonobo: they're like watermarks for your copies
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benwerd I originally turned them off because of complaints - contemplating checking referer and adding a "what is this?" note. And possibly some other rough prototypes of the reader experience.
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tantek so if/when people copy your content, their copies point back to your original
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benwerd ooh, Bolt Bus adds ads all over my site without asking me. My favorite
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tantek has had some experience with random sites / feeds / Twitter accounts copy my tweets without attribution or linking
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cuibonobo tantek: i get your justifications for them. still, they skew a little bit religious fanatic for my taste
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tantek cuibonobo: what's religious about them?
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gregorlove.com edited /Builders (+0) "fix double redirect" (view diff)
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tantek they're supposed to be genuinely useful to the reader - to discover your original site (with richer display / interaction of the content)
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cuibonobo tantek: the evangelizing part. “no THIS is the REAL version of my data”
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ShaneHudson I don't like the links, not quite so bad when it is just text like yours are.
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tantek is that evangelizing or a clear statement of ownership?
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cuibonobo i don’t write my name on everything i own
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benwerd watermarking is actually a clearer explanation of why they're useful for me
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tantek is a declaration of independence "evangelizing"?
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brennannovak.com edited /Respect_Network (+209) "/* Uses complex standards */" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /Builder (+0) "fix double redirect" (view diff)
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cuibonobo tantek: you’re preaching to the masses to free their data from the clutches of the silos!
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cuibonobo hallelujah!
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cuibonobo still, it’s a turn-off for some people.
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tantek cuibonobo: I agree - different audiences will respond differently
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tantek cuibonobo: it can also be perceived as a form of bragging - hey I've got my own website where I post this stuff first, do you?
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gregorlove.com edited /Builders (+0) "fix double redirect" (view diff)
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tantek that's a lot of redirect fixings ;)
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cuibonobo tantek: yep.
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gregorlove.com edited /Creators (+0) "fix double redirect" (view diff)
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gRegor` There's quite a few of them. :)
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gregorlove.com edited /push (+8) "fix double redirect" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /ATOM (+0) "fix double redirect" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /building_blocks (+9) "fix double redirect" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /Comments (-1) "fix double redirect" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /Replies (-1) "fix double redirect" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /github-pages (+0) "fix double redirect" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /indo (+1) "fix double redirect" (view diff)
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gRegor` Allllmost done
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gregorlove.com edited /private_message (+2) "fix double redirect" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /Reply (+2) "fix double redirect" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /Web_actions (-1) "fix double redirect" (view diff)
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bretolius cuibonobo the cool thing about all of this is that you leave out links if you want!
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bretolius :)
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kylewm bret++
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Loqi bret has 19 karma
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cuibonobo bretolius: haha indeed
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gRegor` Fin
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bretolius tantek re https://e14n.com/evan/note/s4sLsySKS_C9Ac1Mu80k3Q lots on AS and JSON-LD. I know pump.io builds around AS and has quite a few users/instances… where does indieweb stuff (Webmention, microformats, indieauth and micropub) find its place in the WG?
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kylewm and specifically https://e14n.com/evan/comment/4NIpR3mOTluMajN7iZIpmA
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bretolius or are you in the position to have to introduce all of this?
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tantek bretolius: see social wg charter, specifically: http://www.w3.org/2013/socialweb/social-wg-charter.html#iwc
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tantek bretolius: I was invited to co-chair specifically to help bring #indiewebcamp tech, deployments, ideas, methodologies to the SocialWG
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tantek kylewm, re: APIs, see indiewebcamp.com/API
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bretolius im gonna bug evan again ;) https://github.com/e14n/pump.io/pull/871#issuecomment-49674073
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tantek thanks bretolius
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bretolius it looks like evan declared PR bankruptcy a month ago
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kylewm yeah, I think when he ported from JS to CoffeeScript
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bretolius oh btw im just bret…. username is messed
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bretolius eeewww
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bretolius thats right
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bretolius that made me :( because now I cant read the code any more
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kylewm bretolius: https://e14n.com/evan/note/5udvV3IYSlS4zQz6u3cpvQ
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kylewm.com edited /pump.io (+6) "/* Rejected pull request for microformats */ clarify close intention" (view diff)
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bretolius "In the same time, I'm going to deal with the long list of pull requests and open issues with pump.io. The PRs will either get a reply, get pulled to 0.4, or closed. The issues will get put into milestones for 0.4 or "maybe later" or "probably never"
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johncash is there a feed anywhere on this page? https://e14n.com/evan
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bretolius "Finally, I'd very much like to do a Kickstarter for the home pump server I discussed last year. I think it could be a lot of fun, and really help people get onto the network." Johannes? you there?
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bretolius johncash you can grab rss somehow i forget
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bretolius or there is a pump to to rss bridge somewhere
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kylewm bretolius: where are you reading that?
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bretolius kylewm https://e14n.com/evan/note/ob8q3oFcSAiT7srUlWYJyA
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gRegor` Dang, pumpio loads a lot of data theough javascript.
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bretolius gRegor` yes… i think the entire interface does
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bretolius err is loaded via js
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gRegor` Sure looks like it.
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johncash new data standard?
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johncash http://xkcd.com/927/
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bretolius the actual server is all JSON i think
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Loqi [mention] http://christopheducamp.com/b/2014-07-22/15228173/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention (pingback)
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gRegor` johncash: !standards returns that xkcd too, haha :)
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bretolius !standards
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Loqi http://xkcd.com/927/
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bretolius lol
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bnvk when too many standards emerge, it probably has a hand in driving people to embrace "open" (read closed) API's
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johncash microformats is probably my favorite structure. you don't need an api just serve the webpage and parse the content
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tantek johncash++ :)
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Loqi johncash has 1 karma
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johncash why have data styling in one stream and data only in another stream. might as well put all the data in the stream that already has data
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johncash s/data styling/data and styling/
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Loqi johncash meant to say: why have data and styling in one stream and data only in another stream. might as well put all the data in the stream that already has data
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@xtof_fr Pourquoi Le Web est Cassé & Comment le Réparer ? #tonictuesday @agence50a Clique #indieweb bienvenue ! #RSVP http://christopheducamp.com/b/2014-07-22/15228173/ (twitter.com/_/status/491351536916635649)
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kylewm why the web is broken and how to fix it :)
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Loqi [mention] http://christopheducamp.com/b/2014-07-22/tonictuesday-indieweb/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention (webmention)
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bnvk I've been wondering about the idea of @usernames inside of email content so to enrich the experience of when one is mentioned in an email. Has anyone come across that sort of thing?
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bnvk it would also work well for email threads that are publicly viewable, as @username could be parsed to then show relevant user context data
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kylewm bnvk: wouldn't you need some centralized arbiter of who is which @username?
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tantek Does "email" imply SMTP or is that just plumbing?
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bnvk kylewm: well depends, one approach could be in an address book within a users given email client
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bnvk another could be a browser extension pulling from one's IndieWeb side address book
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tantek Assuming we get /messaging working well, could we simply call that "email"?
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bnvk tantek: tricky question, I think of email being both the message data format + SMTP transport
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tantek Then an "email on the public web" is just another post
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@teknotus @caseorganic @aaronpk have you seen https://sandstorm.io/ user friendly indieweb software installation. (twitter.com/_/status/491355487661592576)
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tantek Why must the user concept of email require the plumbing of SMTP?
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tantek What is sandstorm?
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bnvk tantek: yah, an email on the public web takes on more of a post type IMO
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tantek I recall shaners musing about POSSEing from his site to a public mailing list.
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tantek What is sandstorm.io?
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bnvk tantek: sandstorm is a server side software deployment solution / web app environment thingy
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kylewm the author came to HWC once
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bnvk similar to IndieBox
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tantek Hmm thought there was wiki page on it
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bnvk it's in /store
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bnvk it's built with some interesting paradigms and tech like protocol buffers
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tantek Thought we had a separate page with issues
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bretolius you have seen this right?: http://bcc.npdoty.name
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bretolius (the layout specifically)
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tantek Sounds like I'm confusing sandstorm with something else
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tantek Bnvk could you stub /sandstorm.io with what you said above?
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tantek If I ever started a silo I'd be tempted to call it sandcastle.something and once in a while a big wave would crash and wipe out the sandcastle a that people had built there.
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tantek s/sandcastle a/sandcastles
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Loqi tantek meant to say: If I ever started a silo I'd be tempted to call it sandcastle.something and once in a while a big wave would crash and wipe out the sandcastles that people had built there.
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bnvk tantek: sure, doing it now
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tantek Thanks bnvk !
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bnvk tantek: do you know about any progress re: the wiki redesign? cc: aaronpk peat
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tantek Bnvk no. I tried it and couldn't stand it more than an hour. Too broken / unusable.
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bnvk what is broken the old site or the new skin?
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tantek I mean so obviously so that anyone living in the wiki could see the usability problems
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tantek The new skin
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bnvk is there a link to it?
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aaron_pk I told you making a new wiki skin is hard ;)
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bnvk all I saw after camp was the github
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tantek Problem is that no one who worked on the new design actively edits / uses the wiki
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aaron_pk bnvk: info here http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/redesign
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tantek So I'm like meh
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gRegor` It is on my list to tweak the CSS on that.
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gRegor` And make the responsive a bit better.
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aaron_pk the problem is everyone who edits the wiki regularly doesn't have an issue with the current skin because we're all used to it
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tantek No I have plenty of issues with the current skin
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gRegor` I will gladly listen to feedback on the new skin and work on implementing it. I think it's a good step forward, but still needs tweaks.
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tantek But the new skin is drastically worse in terms of usability
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gRegor` Esp. a good step forward for people new to IWC
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bnvk tantek: what key points are worse?
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tantek It's still a huge step backwards
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aaron_pk I don't think they touched the editing screens at all
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tantek ^^^^
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aaron_pk and MW does a lot of weird stuff with form layout on those screens
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tantek Bnvk typography 101 - lines are too long
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tantek Really basic web design errors
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aaron_pk so the default "make default html forms look better" doesn't work
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tantek Clearly shows those working on it are not daily wiki users feeling the pain of their changes
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basal Is there any reason the sidebar was switched from the left to right?
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bretolius i have been using the new skin… my primary gripe is the events along the edge on every page
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gRegor` aaron_pk: What improvements would you like on the edit screen?
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gRegor` The left sidebar was eliminated, and necessary links consolidated into the top bar.
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tantek Lots of spacing is just super awkward
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aaron_pk yeah like the comment box and submit buttons
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tantek Like the layout as a whole looks jumbled
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bnvk I see, all in all too bad
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tantek Inter line spacing is bad
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gregorlove.com edited /User:Gregorlove.com (+23) "/* Interests */ Tweak new wiki theme" (view diff)
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aaron_pk I guess it's not bad for a half day of work, but definitely still needs work
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bretolius The wikitools drop down should be the edit button, and then have the other tools drop down on hover
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tantek Right, not bad for half a day of work, but still not as usable as current skin
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gregorlove.com edited /wiki/redesign (+14) "Issues" (view diff)
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tantek Also, hiding common links under a menu (turning one click of common actions into two clicks) is a major usability regression.
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gRegor` ooh ooh, this might be a first for me.
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gRegor` tantek: Could you capture these on the wiki? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/redesign#Issues :D
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tantek This is what I mean by those that redesigned don't actually use / edit the wiki day to day
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tantek Gregor the problems were so numerous and seemingly obvious To a daily user that I didn't bother. It smelled like no one that worked on it was bothering to dogfood daily.
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gRegor` I ask because I use the new theme and am going to tweak it.
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bret.io edited /wiki/redesign (+511) "/* Issues */ added my primary issues" (view diff)
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gRegor` I do already recognize several of the things you've said though
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tantek Edit, history should be single clicks
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gRegor` But, memory . . . hah
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bretolius i rarely look at history personally
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bretolius rare enough that I kinda like it out of the way
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tantek I look at history all the time
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bretolius i look at history via Loqi mostly
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tantek Good way of seeing what's new since I last looked at this page
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bnvk Personally I have always found the wiki relatively obnoxious- the underlying technology, syntax, and sites information architecture. I wonder if we'd be better off with a WordPress site for public "new user" information and such and an instance of Gitlab for actually working on things
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tantek I like to look at several diffs at a time which the history page let's you do.
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bretolius yeah… it may just be that I dont know these trix
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gRegor` Are we referring to a mousever as a click? Re: Edit and History?
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bnvk both have relatively structured data input forms and such
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bnvk and the theming of WP is quite easy
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gRegor` Ew.
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aaron_pk splitting into two sites would be a huge step backwards
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gRegor` WordPress--
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Loqi WordPress has -2 karma
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aaron_pk because the "public" one will always immediately be out of date
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tantek Bnvk yuck
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bretolius gRegor`I am referring to mouse over
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bnvk lol
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tantek What aaronpk said
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GWG WordPress++
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Loqi WordPress has -1 karma
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bnvk yah, wtf with the WP hate?
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bnvk WordPress++
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Loqi WordPress has 0 karma
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gRegor` It's awful.
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GWG bnvk: Exactly
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bnvk aaron_pk: why would it "be out of date" ?
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aaron_pk also I would *much* rather interact with content in mediawiki than wordpress. takes too many steps to edit things in wordpress
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sparverius wait whats wrong with wordperess
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sparverius oh
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sparverius yeah
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aaron_pk bnvk: because it's harder to edit in wordpress, and we'd all be working on the "non-public" site anyway
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sparverius i run a couple of wordpress installationns and ive gotten good at the dark art of extracting all of the posts out
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snarfed thinks it's amusing that wp love here generally comes from people who *use* it, and hate comes from people who don't
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bnvk I don't actually use WP
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aaron_pk i've used my fair share of wordpress
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aaron_pk including writing themes and extensions
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GWG Nothing is perfect, but what is wrong with it?
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snarfed fair
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bretolius gRegor` were you helping with the wiki redesign?
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aaron_pk and running non-blogs
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sparverius i use wp a lot, and ive written extensions
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bnvk I've only developed 3 WP sites in my life
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sparverius GWG: some people dont like the interface. fair.
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gRegor` bretolius: I did not help on the hack day, but I was very interested in it.
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bretolius since then?
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sparverius GWG: it was really complicated and they reimplemented save/edit/versioning flows in a weird way
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gRegor` And I am going to be working on it, now
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sparverius i think wp is a lot better with the latest versions and also autoupdate
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bnvk I started making Social-Igniter because I thought WP sucked too much back in 2009
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sparverius wordpress is closer to CMS than it is to blog
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snarfed autoupdate++
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Loqi autoupdate has 1 karma
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bnvk whatever, figured i'd throw the idea out there- i'm not too attached it
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GWG What software hasn't gotten better over time?
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sparverius for technical users trying to collaborate a wiki is the way to go
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bretolius itunes
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gRegor` snarfed: Oh, I've used WordPress with clients plenty, thus my dislike. :)
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sparverius GWG: when wordpress started becoming a CMS vs a blog software, it got much worse for a while
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sparverius and then they had security issues
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snarfed gRegor`: fair enough!
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bnvk the current site is definitely not alluring to new users- many ppl at camp in Berlin found it challenging to engage, navigate or gain any value from
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GWG sparverius: You mean like every popular platform?
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tantek Snarfed nope. Tried and gave up.
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tantek WP sucks for collab editig
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johncash is there an indie web directory?
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gRegor` didn't really intend to start a software war over it though
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sparverius “Every program attempts to expand until it can read mail. Those programs which cannot so expand are replaced by ones which can.”
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gRegor` So uh, yeah, about those wiki redesign issues... :)
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snarfed tantek: oh agreed. i was thinking of the hate for using it as a personal CMS
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sparverius “Every program attempts to expand until it can function as a CMS. Those programs which cannot so expand are replaced by ones which can.”
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snarfed gRegor`: nah that'd be too productive
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bnvk lol
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aaron_pk I would like to see the new wiki design improved, it's definitely on the right track
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sparverius there i just updated jwz's email law to 2014 web software standards
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aaron_pk also everyone here is welcome/encouraged to help improve the information architecture on the wiki, especially the home page
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gRegor` Thanks for the contrib, bret. Everyone else feel free to capture issues here: http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/redesign#Issues
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aaron_pk complaining that "new users" find it hard to navigate the wiki is not sufficient reason to suggest replacing it with something else. I guarantee whatever would replace it would be harder to put content into
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bretolius gRegor` aaron_pk Ill start using it day to day and see what bothers me
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tantek No for personal I can see that it works for some
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tantek But also experience
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tantek As in bnvk , I challenge you to show me a public community effort that works like that where the public home page doesn't just go stale in months.
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tantek As for my own anecdotal I will offer microformats.org where we basically tried the split bnvk is suggesting and all the WP "public" pages went out of date while the /wiki media wiki is what everybody updated.
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aaron_pk bretolius: cool. I tried that but then switched back because I actually wanted to get stuff done :(
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tantek Eventually we've been migrating more and more of the WP public content pages to the wiki.
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tantek Joh cash see /irc-people for example ;)
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tantek s/Joh cash/johncash
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Loqi tantek meant to say: johncash see /irc-people for example ;)
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tantek Damn iOS autocorrect.
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bretolius aaron_pk what was getting in your way?
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bnvk I also find the wiki hard to engage with. Right now "create a stub" I don't have this mental processes of what that process is. I have to hunt and peck between existing pages
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tantek Snarfed the hate (in this case) is only for the misconception of using it for a collaborative community site.
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gregorlove.com created /User:Gregorlove.com/redesign (+3262) "for testing wiki CSS" (view diff)
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bnvk I find the wiki syntax annoying, because of too many flavors of markdown, and it's own idiosyncracies
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aaron_pk bretolius: i can't remember exactly
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bretolius it would be cool if there was like a Ghost style wiki editor
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snarfed tantek: agreed in this case. there's some low grade ongoing hate for it as an indieweb platform too though, hence the previous negative karma. i'd guess some of that is just because it's big, but probably not all
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bnvk and overall it just lacks structure of how to easily go publish / edit a given type of content… but you all are much bigger users than I am, so do what ya will, I just wonder how much more myself (and others) would use something slightly easier ;)
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snarfed tantek: not a big deal though, not worth doing anything about
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tantek Hence why I am not giving WP any neg karma
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tantek bnvk: Wordpress is not easier for collab editing, that's your mistake
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tantek snarfed: Clearly WP has proven itself as a flexible indieweb publishing solution, if only by the adoption numbers.
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gRegor` My "go to" demo of why I dislike WordPress is this function. WP adds magic quotes regardless of server settings, or the fact that PHP is getting rid of the "feature." http://codex.wordpress.org/wp_magic_quotes
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tantek And generation penetration too. I think WP is the only solution that gen 2 folks have started using so far for indieweb functionality.
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tantek Such external measurements are an important metric
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tantek Known is a distant 2nd (for now ;) )
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bnvk tantek: what is the ultimate goal of collaborative editing?
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tantek Then p3k (with two users). Then everything else afaik has only one user, the selfdogfooding developer.
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tantek Bnvk up to date information that is reasonably readable/accessible.
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snarfed tantek: re gen 2 people, also blogger, tumblr, and wp.com!
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tantek Thus editing usability is quite paramount.
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bretolius https://www.w3.org/wiki/Activity_Streams has a nice list if AS implementations
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snarfed but agreed, self-hosted wp is probably be the most important
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gRegor` tantek: Using this page as a comparison, http://indiewebcamp.com/User:Gregorlove.com/redesign, line lengths are actually longer on the current wiki theme vs the new. Not usually by more than a couple words, but yeah.
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tantek snarfed: Blogger and tumblr are a different camp since they still have silo TOS
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snarfed tantek: hmm. i expect all of our hosting providers and ISPs have TOSes. if you bring your own domain, are blogger/tumblr materially different?
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tantek gRegor`: That was not my experience
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tantek With typical pages
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tantek Even just the home page looked uglier in the new theme
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bnvk tantek: yah readable / accessible information that is up to date- that makes sense, I just don't understand why you think a WP page is somehow less easy for multiple people to edit at different points in time
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gRegor` New theme is: "Helvetica Neue", "Helvetica", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;, old is just: sans-serif. Hm
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gRegor` "It looks uglier" is harder for me to act on :)
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bnvk furthermore, there are all sorts of WP plugins for things like events that give data (and the input forms) structure and order. The current events page in wiki syntax feels like an ad-hoc jungle
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tantek Very
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tantek The content provisions are very different
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tantek Claims to ownership of your content etc
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tantek Providers and ISPs prefer to have "common carrier" like status
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tantek Where they don't regulate anything except the minimum reqd by law like DMCA.
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tantek Whereas silos overreach greatly in their TOSes
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brennannovak.com edited /web_hosting (+32) "/* Home Hosting */" (view diff)
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snarfed tantek: understood in general…but for blogger and tumblr specifically, you actually know that they claim to own your content? or something similar? hard to believe, but if you say so, i'll believe you
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gRegor` bnvk: I have a template in progress (practically complete) that will make events much easier. /Template:one-day-event
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bnvk gRegor`: that sounds great :)
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johncash tantek: i deleted my facebook because of the creepy experimentation stuff. so i hear you on the silos overstepping
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bnvk once I get a bit of free time (after sept) I will definitely step up to the plate to help redesign the site if it's not done by then (even if it's still on wiki) :P
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bnvk johncash++
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Loqi johncash has 2 karma
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kylewm.com uploaded /File:responsive-navbar-firefox-2014-07-21.png "responsiveness problems with new theme on smaller screens"
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kylewm.com uploaded /File:responsive-navbar-firefox-smaller-2014-07-21.png "responsiveness problems with new theme on smaller screens"
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bnvk how do I do a link to an anchor in wiki syntax [[web_hosting#Personal_Clouds personal clouds]] ?
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kylewm.com edited /wiki/redesign (+257) "/* Issues */ add responsive screenshots" (view diff)
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aaron_pk wiki links are [[page_name#whatevs|display text]]
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aaron_pk anchor is optional, same syntax
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bnvk aaron_pk: thanks ;)
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bnvk so the pipe
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kylewm oh wow, Foundation seems to really muck up the line-height of <textarea>s
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gregorlove.com edited /User:Gregorlove.com/redesign (+35) "/* Long Text Section */" (view diff)
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aaron_pk the pipe separates the page name from the display text in wiki links
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aaron_pk for external links it's just a space :(
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aaron_pk [http://example.com Example]
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aaron_pk not my favorite part of MW syntax
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bnvk yep… that's the sorta stuff that bugs the hell out of me
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bnvk everytime I want to add a page or do something, I dread it
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kylewm.com edited /wiki/redesign (+89) "add note about textarea lineheight" (view diff)
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tantek Darn mobile colloquy dropped me and a bunch of stuff I typed.
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snarfed.org edited /Tumblr (+258) "TOS/content ownership" (view diff)
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tantek johncash: Did you document your quitting of FB? Link to it from /silo-quits
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gRegor` tantek: How is this? http://indiewebcamp.com/User:Gregorlove.com/redesign#Long_Text_Section Ignoring the width of the column, just the line length of that section. It's ~75 characters, which is a common satisfactory line measure.
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johncash Nope. I didn't make a big deal of it. I just hit delete. I forget it's even gone until people talk about facebook
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tantek Wow I can't even copy paste the text I typed in before
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tantek And this is why I hate native mobile apps
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tantek They lack simple things like copy paste of text
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gRegor` Should clarify I mean on the new theme.
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bretolius colloquy mobile needs some lovin
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kylewm.com edited /wiki/redesign (+42) "/* Issues */ thumbnail screenshots" (view diff)
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tantek This is why mobile web apps are going to win. Native apps just lack fundamental features, and are super crashy
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bretolius tantek http://palaverapp.com/ is a decent replacement…. before ios fucked it over
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bretolius ios7
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gRegor` thanks, kylewm!
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kylewm gRegor`: sure! i'm a little bit concerned
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kylewm some of this seems like fundamental problems with the framework
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gRegor` Mediawiki, you mean, or the base CSS theme?
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kylewm line-height, spacing, isn't that what the framework is *for*
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kylewm talking about Foundation
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bretolius "when we aggregate the electricity it takes to watch one hour of video streaming via broadband systems of server warehouses and telecommunications networks, we discover that an individual mobile device uses more electricity than two new refrigerators.” http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/greening-the-media/201407/don-t-be-fooled-the-abundance-green-apps
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brennannovak.com created /sandstorm (+867) "Created page with "{{stub}} '''<dfn>[https://sandstorm.io Sandstorm]</dfn>''' is open source software [[project]] that aims to make self-hosted [[web_hosting#Personal_Clouds| personal clouds]].ea..."" (view diff)
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bnvk bretolius: wat! that's crazy
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bretolius Thats what on demand centralized systems cost
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tantek bnvk: Don't stress too much about wiki syntax. Just get the text & links in there and someone else will help fix :)
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bnvk tantek: noted ;)
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bnvk I just hate leaving things messy
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snarfed.org edited /Blogger (+635) "TOS/content ownership" (view diff)
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snarfed (for the logs: Tumblr and Blogger's TOSes both explicitly say that users retain ownership and copyright over all content they post. both are obviously limited in other regards, but it's good to know at least that part won't prevent people from using them as valid indieweb sites.)
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gRegor` There's some weird things in Foundation. Like h4 is text-transform: uppercase
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gRegor` for no apparent reason. All other headings are normal case.
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bnvk that should be configurable, no?
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gRegor` The CSS? Sure. That's what I'm working on now. :)
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kylewm one thing i really like about the redesign is it has a favicon :)
timbray joined the channel