#indiewebcamp 2014-07-23

2014-07-23 UTC
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gregorlove.com edited /wiki/redesign (+355) "/* Issues */ summarizing tantek" (view diff)
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ike.io edited /IRC_People (+53) (view diff)
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tantek gRegor`: I appreciate you taking the time to summarize my rants in a more productive fashion :)
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ike.io created /User:Ike.io (+69) "Created page with " == Ike.io | Isaac Lewis == [[File:http://f.ike.io/h/avatar128.jpg]]"" (view diff)
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gRegor` Helps me remember for when I'm working on stuff. :)
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tantek.com created /Deviantart (+24) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /why (+188) "/* Avoiding problems */ note content theft separate from abuse, add deviantART example" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /why (+25) "/* Content theft */ emphasis" (view diff)
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kylewm crossdiver: ike.io is empty! switching off jekyll?
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crossdiver kylewm -- yeah, hopefully. I think I'm switching to Bumble on DigitalOcean. Jekyll is a paaaaaiiiiiiinn
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crossdiver espesh on gh-pages
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tantek fascinating
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tantek what is Bumble?
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kylewm augh, tantek I can never tell if you are asking Loqi
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Loqi dude
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kylewm should I assume you are alwys asking Loqi?
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benwerd Is this it? Looks neat: https://github.com/Zarkonnen/Bumble
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ike.io uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:Ike-io-Avatar.jpg]]""
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kylewm benwerd: https://github.com/adambrault/bumble
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kylewm adam was at IWC SF this year
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benwerd Nice, two blogging engines with the same name
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ike.io edited /User:Ike.io (+210) "/* Ike.io | Isaac Lewis */" (view diff)
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kylewm it's sort of like the birthday paradox
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kylewm put enough blogging engines in a github, and two are very likely to have the same name
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kylewm :)
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crossdiver tantek -- Bumble is a really simple markdown-based blog platform on node.js built by Adam Brault: https://github.com/adambrault/bumble
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tantek cool! another Node engine coming along. mko is working on a Node solution too.
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crossdiver kewl. we're using Bumble for the &yet blog, and most of our personal ones too.
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crossdiver what does mko's node solution look like?
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tantek he's supposedly going to deploy and launch by this Friday
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tantek with a ton of functionality
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tantek he's heads down cranking hard on it
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crossdiver nice! is there a repo to watch?
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tantek normally I'm skeptical about such claims, however, in this case I both know him, and have watched him ask all the right detailed in-depth questions that indicate that he's making incredibly rapid progress.
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kylewm.com created /Bumble (+246) "stub in with crossdiver's description/definition" (view diff)
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tantek and he said we could give him a hard time if he doesn't ship by Friday
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crossdiver perf
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crossdiver personally, I'm a huge node fan -- so I'm really excited about seeing more node momentum in the indieweb community
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tantek personally I'm really excited about seeing different backend approaches to indieweb solutions
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tantek.com edited /POSSE (+1383) "add Jeremy Keith POSSEing examples, add headers for all IndieWeb Examples" (view diff)
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kylewm.com edited /Flickr (+592) "/* Feeds */" (view diff)
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snarfed tantek: re mediawiki kbd shortcuts…if you're on firefox, try searching for the link w/keyboard, then press enter. e.g. for the Page link, press ', P, A, enter
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snarfed (you may have to enable some search-by-link setting. i've been doing this for decades, and kept my ff config, so i've long forgotten :P)
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snarfed i click on most links in web pages w/keyboard, not w/mouse (thank god)
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snarfed more: https://snarfed.org/firefox_keyconfig_extension
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tantek there used to be actual ACCESSKEY shortcuts
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tantek I'll look into it more
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bear via @netik on twitter - bypass t.co links using the DOM - https://github.com/tony-o/t.co-bypass/blob/master/greasemonkey.user.js
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kylewm bear: why didn't i think of that
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bear I KNOW RITE!?!
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androte79 is there a microformats feed reader?
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KartikPrabhu androte79: not a full-functional one afaik... barnabywalters is working on one though and so are others
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androte79 all the feeds in my reader are indie websites
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KartikPrabhu that is a good thing :P
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KartikPrabhu androte79: also see: http://indiewebcamp.com/reader
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kylewm.com uploaded /File:indiereader-IWC-2014-07-22.png "Screenshot of IndieReader developed at IWC 2014"
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kylewm.com edited /reader (+508) "/* IndieWeb examples */" (view diff)
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kylewm.com edited /reader (-14) "/* = Ben Werdmüller, Aaron Parecki, Emma Kuo */" (view diff)
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kylewm.com edited /reader (+5) "/* Ben Werdmüller, Aaron Parecki, Emma Kuo */ remote float:right from indiereader screenshot" (view diff)
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kylewm.com edited /reader (+57) "/* Ben Werdmüller, Aaron Parecki, Emma Kuo */ add link to source" (view diff)
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@erinjo @natematias @benwerd I <3 algorithms and would be happy to discuss what auditability might mean for #indieweb apps. (twitter.com/_/status/491789226330316800)
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@natematias @erinjo @benwerd reach out to @niftyc and @kkarahal, who I think may love to chat about integrating auditability into indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/491802796757643265)
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kylewm does anybody have any insight on why the rate limit is so restrictive on this Flickr api call? https://www.flickr.com/services/api/flickr.activity.userPhotos.html
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snarfed kylewm: the poll frequency is configurable per silo, so we can make flickr 1h if we need to
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snarfed at least, if it's 1 per hr per user, as opposed to per api key
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kylewm definitely pretty sure it's per user and not API key
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kylewm 3600 / hour is the limit per key
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kylewm snarfed: i guess the rate limit just makes my spidey sense tingly...like they don't want us to use that method for some unstated reason
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snarfed kylewm: yeah good instincts
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kylewm given that no one who POSSEs to Flickr has asked about it yet, I'm inclined to backburner :)
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snarfed in practice, silos generally only notice apps when they go above a certain total qps threshold, and bridgy's nowhere near that, so i wouldn't worry too much
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snarfed yeah, good point
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kylewm I did finish the oauth-dropin for it though
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kylewm might be useful for future Oauth1 targets
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snarfed oh awesome! thanks!
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snarfed looking fwd to the PR
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snarfed kylewm: trying to posse an fb reshare? :P
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kylewm snarfed: heh, just wanted to see what the error looked like
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@t going to Homebrew Website Club Wed 30th 18:30 @MozSF, 17:30 writing hr http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-07-30-homebrew-website-club & http://www.facebook.com/events/682246018521339 (ttk.me t4XD2) (twitter.com/_/status/491832528580247552)
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@itsmisscs Boo, missing this by 1 day“@t: Homebrew Website Club Wed 30th 18:30 @MozSF http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-07-30-homebrew-website-club & http://www.facebook.com/events/682246018521339 (ttk.me t4XD2)” (twitter.com/_/status/491834808947834880)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/t/491832528580247552/491834808947834880 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-07-30-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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@anikasaigal IndieWebCamp happening in Brighton in September http://indiewebcamp.com/ #indieweb via @benwerd @timoreilly cc @SomeHats (twitter.com/_/status/491838432382308352)
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@anikasaigal @michaelgold hey! How are the open source events going? Came across @indiewebcamp happening in Brighton& check out @withknown @benwerd (twitter.com/_/status/491842743996796928)
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@OnTheWebz RT @t: going to Homebrew Website Club Wed 30th 18:30 @MozSF, 17:30 writing hr http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-07-30-homebrew-website-club & http://www.facebook.com/events/682246018521339 (ttk.me t4XD2) (twitter.com/_/status/491852747508310016)
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cweiske tantek, regarding your question: I still cannot login with my own indieauth server into indiewebcamp.com
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cweiske i'm forced to log in with github
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cweiske and I only was able to implement my own indieauth server because I digged into the depths of indieauth.com code and asking questions here
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/repost/twitter/t/491832528580247552/491852747508310016 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-07-30-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/t/491832528580247552/2721463551 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-07-30-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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@StreetcarBistro RT @t: going to Homebrew Website Club Wed 30th 18:30 @MozSF, 17:30 writing hr http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-07-30-homebrew-website-club & http://www.facebook.com/events/682246018521339 (ttk.me t4XD2) (twitter.com/_/status/491857162386550784)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/repost/twitter/t/491832528580247552/491857162386550784 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-07-30-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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cweiske $ curl -I webmention.org
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cweiske HTTP/1.1 503 Service Temporarily Unavailable
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cweiske Server: nginx/1.4.4
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KartikPrabhu any messages Loqi?
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Loqi :)
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KartikPrabhu thanks
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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@ShaneHudson @reichenstein @markboulton It certainly has done that. Though have you seen http://indiewebcamp.com (twitter.com/_/status/491910622993735680)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/ShaneHudson/491910622993735680/17435847 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/ShaneHudson/491910622993735680/17958179 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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@tobiastom @BarnabyWalters Sorry for using http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4WfKUc/ as a test case for https://github.com/converspace/webmention/issues/34 (twitter.com/_/status/491944054616494080)
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suda.co.uk edited /2014/UK/Guest_List (+191) "Added Brian Suda" (view diff)
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androte38 !tell benwerd @names link to a profile page 404 on werd.Io
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@luclegay Merci aux participants du dernier #MousseParis et rendez-vous le 22 juillet 2021 https://www.facebook.com/events/686358418098700 #indieweb https://twitter.com/luclegay/status/491980435870994432/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/491980435870994432)
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@kyle_wm Got a good little chuckle out of this quote from Brid.gy’s launch announcement, from before it played with indieweb …https://kylewm.com/reply/2014/07/23/1 (twitter.com/_/status/491981127289417728)
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aaron_pk brace yourselves
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aaron_pk the !tells are coming
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aaronpk bring it on!
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Loqi aaronpk: mko left you a message on 7/16 at 4:07pm: When you've got a few minutes to chat, I'd love to understand better how to enable authentication for micropub. I didn't actually realize IndieAuth provided a bearer/access token.
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Loqi aaronpk: bret left you a message on 7/18 at 10:53am: I have been reading your site and caseorganic's site for the last few months in a feed reader comparing your atom feed to the hfeed that Barnaby built
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Loqi aaronpk: bret left you a message on 7/18 at 10:55am: the h feed is consistently more interesting and useful as it contains the actual photos of the post and gives a better feed with better summaries
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Loqi aaronpk: tantek left you a message on 7/18 at 11:45am: this is a freebie. welcome back. and take your time with all the tells. people are patient. it's all good. :)
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Loqi aaronpk: mko left you a message on 7/19 at 5:15pm: Not sure if this was intentional, but a GET on your webmention endpoint no longer displays the informational page you had there before: http://aaronparecki.com/webmention
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Loqi aaronpk: bnvk left you a message 3 days, 2 hours ago: see that last webmention of mine? Does Loqi interpret #IndieWeb tag as a link to IWC.com ?
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Loqi aaronpk: gRegor` left you a message on 7/21 at 11:04am: #indiewebcamp main channel misses you. ;)
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Loqi aaronpk: tantek left you a message on 7/21 at 8:10pm: bummer that http://indiewebcamp.com/indieweb-messaging says it's out of date at the top, as I wanted to refer to it in reply to this: https://www.facebook.com/evan.prodromou/posts/10152578309725505?comment_id=10152579191330505&offset=0&total_comments=12
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gRegor` !tell aaronpk Welcome back!
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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barnabywalters new rule: all communication with aaronpk must be carried out via !tells
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gRegor` That wasn't so bad
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gRegor` !tellmention protocol
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aaronpk !tell mko this page is the rough draft of how IndieAuth provides an access token http://indiewebcamp.com/auth-brainstorming
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Loqi aaronpk: gRegor` left you a message 2 minutes ago: Welcome back!
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk !tell bret that's interesting, does that mean I should a) drop my atom feed completely or b) continue maintaining a specific rendering of my content as an atom feed?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk tantek: thanks for the freebie :)
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aaronpk !tell mko how'd you get http://aaronparecki.com/webmention as my webmention endpoint? mine actually ends in .php (yes I should change that I know)
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk hunts for the "last webmention of mine" from bnvk
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aaronpk wonders if the !tells should also include a link to the line in the logs of the original tell for context?
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aaronpk !tell bnvk no, it looks like your footer links to indiewebcamp.com and you sent a webmention for that link
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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aaronpk tantek: hm there's a lot of good stuff still on /indieweb-messaging, I just didn't want to confuse people who were looking at the rest of the indieauth pages http://indiewebcamp.com/Category:IndieAuth
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kylewm aaronpk: there was also a RelMeAuth question that no one else answered (afaik) ... why do the silos need to have a link back to your domain?
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bear indieweb-messaging?
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aaronpk bear: http://indiewebcamp.com/indieweb-messaging
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aaronpk basically I need to update it to be private posts that require an access token to view
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aaronpk kylewm: hm I should probably search the logs for mentions of me or indieauth now
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bear I would love an updated page about that - i've got most of indieweb access tokens working (I think) but I need to do a self-review to make sure it flows properly
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kylewm heh, this was hmans asking about having both hmans.io and hmans.de
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kylewm if that helps your search
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aaronpk !tell cweiske I apologise for the current state of the indieauth docs, but I figure it would be better to develop in the public wiki rather than hiding out for 2 months and emerging with an IndieAuth Stone Tablet ( re: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-07-22#t1406064130 )
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk !tell cweiske and correct, there really is no "scope" in OAuth 1. That was something Twitter bolted on top at the application level rather than request level
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@CharlesNepote RT @luclegay: Merci aux participants du dernier #MousseParis et rendez-vous le 22 juillet 2021 https://www.facebook.com/events/686358418098700 #indieweb http://t.c… (twitter.com/_/status/491987900775792641)
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@sophiemaheo RT @luclegay: Merci aux participants du dernier #MousseParis et rendez-vous le 22 juillet 2021 https://www.facebook.com/events/686358418098700 #indieweb http://t.c… (twitter.com/_/status/491989929988456448)
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aaronpk tantek: regarding flat-file storage http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-07-21#t1405959336 I actually have open-sourced it now at https://github.com/aaronpk/p3k-core but it's horribly un-documented and specific to my implementation
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aaronpk specifically here where it reads from disk https://github.com/aaronpk/p3k-core/blob/master/src/p3k/Post.php#L83 and writes to disk https://github.com/aaronpk/p3k-core/blob/master/src/p3k/Post.php#L1264
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aaronpk stickers are a great idea for my specific post types
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aaronpk is going backwards in the IRC logs
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aaronpk hm is JonathanNeal still around? Just got to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-07-20#t1405891565
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JonathanNeal What about him? Haven’t seen him around for ages.
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aaronpk ohey
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JonathanNeal ohai
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aaronpk so that sounds basically exactly like IndieAuth (which is based on OAuth 2)
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aaronpk the terminology you're looking for is "scope" (regarding http://i.imgur.com/fw2A40i.png)
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aaronpk and it's basically all documented here http://indiewebcamp.com/auth-brainstorming
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JonathanNeal So “scope” is the list of permitted access by the host?
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aaronparecki.com edited /scope (+53) "add dfn" (view diff)
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aaronpk what is scope?
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Loqi In OAuth terminology, scope is a way to limit what parts of your account are accessible by third-party applications http://indiewebcamp.com/scope
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aaronpk there we go JonathanNeal ^
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JonathanNeal is confused.
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aaronpk darn
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aaronpk JonathanNeal: right now, ownyourgram.com requests the "post" scope when you authorize it for your site
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aaronpk because it expects to be able to create new posts
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JonathanNeal yes, so that’s the scope requested on demand, and I am talking about predefining some approved scopes (like the img you referenced)
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JonathanNeal aaronpk: is there a github project for setting this up on your own server?
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aaronpk pre-defining scopes would be something your authorization server would do if no scope parameter is present
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aaronpk JonathanNeal: I don't have an authorization server other than indieauth.com up on github yet
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aaronpk I'm in the middle of building a separate authorization server for p3k, which maybe I should write as its own project
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JonathanNeal Oh, and I’m looking for a file I just drop into my server. If it’s PHP, I just do something like require_once and plug in the auth where I need it.
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aaronpk huh, i'm not quite sure what you're looking for then. it's a little more complicated than tyat
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snarfed kylewm aaronpk: i also couldn't figure out why relmeauth needed the silo rel-me link back to your site
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snarfed i can understand for other offline rel-me uses (spidering, building a graph, etc), to prove that you own both the site and the silo acct
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snarfed ...but for relmeauth, you prove that you own the silo acct by authing with it, which seems like enough
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aaronpk actually I had the same question when I was in the depths of the indieauth code a couple weeks ago
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aaronpk I was hoping tantek would be around to clarify the original reasoning behind it
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snarfed maybe for the non-interactive-auth use cases
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snarfed meh
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tantek.com edited /events/2014-07-30-homebrew-website-club (+91) "/* URLs */ add SF indie event and FB posse copy" (view diff)
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aaronpk galleries are geting up there in my "itching" list
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KartikPrabhu galleries are posts with many images?
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aaronpk not sure the right word for it
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aaronpk maybe albums
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aaronpk but yeah just a short post with a bunch of photos
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KartikPrabhu i thought that was a "note with photos"...
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aaronpk sure
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KartikPrabhu tries to beat a half-dead horse
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aaronpk point is I can only attach one photo to a note right now
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KartikPrabhu aah yes that makes sense :)
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aaronpk my current workaround was to post an article :) http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2014/07/19/1/capybara-party
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KartikPrabhu do you not consider a bunch of photos as 'long-form' content then?
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gRegor` KartikPrabhu: I almost said "you mean 'note with—OUCH!"
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aaronpk not if it's just a short note with many photos
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KartikPrabhu I see
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aaronpk that may be a personal distinction that nobody else shares, but that's ok :)
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KartikPrabhu sure... these are fuzzy distinctions anyway. As long as you actually post photos I don't really care whether you call it a note or article or gallery :P
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aaronpk ultimately it will still be published as an h-entry with many p-photo properties. the distinction is mostly internal to my code base
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KartikPrabhu many p-photos... interesting
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gRegor` Not u-photos?
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aaronpk uh right that
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aaronpk my bad
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gRegor` np, just clarifying
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gRegor` I, uh, kinda started the big discussion of differences between "photo" and "note with photo" :)
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gRegor` I (kinda) understand it better now.
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aaronpk that's been going on a while :)
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KartikPrabhu beats the dead horse harder
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KartikPrabhu the current definition of u-photo seems to be not for this purpose though.
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aaronpk 2012 http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2012/10/22/1/creating-content-on-the-indie-web
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KartikPrabhu u-photo - a representative photo or image for the entry, e.g. primary photo for an article or subject-cropped photo, suitable for use in a link-preview (example)
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aaronpk hm interseting point
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KartikPrabhu that is why I have been picking one photo from a gallery as the u-photo for the article, which also shows up in my feed-preview
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gRegor` aaronpk: mko's gist helped me understand the distinction he was making. Thoughts? https://gist.github.com/mko/f05e8cb0d2423f6deaa7
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aaronpk my guess is any current feed readers would just use the first photo in the array
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: yes... i think that is how it would work.... but then the defintion should be updated.
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gRegor` Summary of the discussion, too: http://indiewebcamp.com/photo#Discussion
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aaronpk so i'm not sure what just happened here. I started this out as a short reply, but then realized I needed to add line breaks between the topics, then realized the tweet version was not showing enough context, so I rewrote the tweet as a summary http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2014/07/23/1/ vs https://twitter.com/aaronpk/status/492008861293740033
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@aaronpk @anomalily Some thoughts on @Venmo vs @SquareCash vs @Split_Wise: http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2014/07/23/1/ (twitter.com/_/status/492008861293740033)
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: looks good to me
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aaronparecki.com edited /scope (+896) "add sections to collect silo and indieweb examples of scopes" (view diff)
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aaronpk KartikPrabhu: the only problem is the content that went to twitter isn't anywhere on my site
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KartikPrabhu oh!
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KartikPrabhu as in the summary of what you wrote?
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aaronpk yeah
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aaronpk I have just been informed that my website is blocked by the City of Portland network
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KartikPrabhu hmm sure I have done that a bunch of times... compare: https://twitter.com/kartik_prabhu/status/471033654257668096 vs https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/technologies-ideas-action
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@kartik_prabhu technologies < ideas < actions. @adactio on #indieweb and selfpublishing http://adactio.com/journal/6801/ (https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/technologies-ideas-action) (twitter.com/_/status/471033654257668096)
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: wait what!
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mko Huh. Why?
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aaronpk don't know yet, trying to find out
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Loqi mko: aaronpk left you a message 1 hour, 50 minutes ago: this page is the rough draft of how IndieAuth provides an access token http://indiewebcamp.com/auth-brainstorming
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Loqi mko: aaronpk left you a message 1 hour, 48 minutes ago: how'd you get http://aaronparecki.com/webmention as my webmention endpoint? mine actually ends in .php (yes I should change that I know)
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mko Gah
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mko aaronpk: Thanks and I got it by apparently forgetting to type the .php
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mko :-)
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kylewm.com edited /payment (+124) "/* Articles */ add aaronpk's comparison of venmo and square cash" (view diff)
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tommorris would love some eyes on http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-tag-issues - just suggested we ought to formally deprecate rel-tag because of scoping rules
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tommorris and h-entry's category property does the same thing without the HTML5 scoping rules headaches
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tommorris (or rather the headaches caused by lack of any scoping rules. the other alternative is we use RDFa's scoping rules, but that's kind of antithetical to most of the design of microformats.)
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gRegor` kylewm: Did you manually specify the site icon in this note? https://kylewm.com/note/2014/07/23/1
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gRegor` Mailpile's icon, that is
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kylewm you're too fast, gRegor`
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gRegor` Hehe
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gRegor` I was just curious if it was something automatic or manual
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gRegor` Oh, it's in your addressbook.
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kylewm gRegor`: guessing the connection was interrupted while I was mirroring the icon...
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gRegor` Hm? The icon looks fine
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gRegor` Was just wondering how you got it. But I detective'd it out.
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kylewm I did manually specify it when I put them in my address book
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Loqi cweiske: aaronpk left you a message 2 hours, 58 minutes ago: I apologise for the current state of the indieauth docs, but I figure it would be better to develop in the public wiki rather than hiding out for 2 months and emerging with an IndieAuth Stone Tablet ( re: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-07-22#t1406064130 )
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Loqi cweiske: aaronpk left you a message 2 hours, 56 minutes ago: and correct, there really is no "scope" in OAuth 1. That was something Twitter bolted on top at the application level rather than request level
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Loqi bnvk: aaronpk left you a message 3 hours, 24 minutes ago: no, it looks like your footer links to indiewebcamp.com and you sent a webmention for that link
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bnvk Loqi: shoot, I wish I knew what aaronpk: was answering with that response :P
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Loqi grins profusely
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aaronpk ohai
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bnvk haya
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aaronpk we're finding the limits of !tell here
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bnvk hehe
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bnvk do you remember aaronpk ?
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kylewm aaronpk: love your idea about adding a log URL to the end of the tell
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kylewm bnvk: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-07-23#t1406132542
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bnvk damn magic kylewm :)
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bnvk oh whoa, so sending mention sends a request to every url that's contained with a what- "p-note" ?
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aaronpk not sure what you mean
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aaronpk you wrote your code I assume
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aaronpk most people only send webmentions to links contained within the h-entry
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bnvk hehe, I mean I'm using the webmention lib that I think Barnaby wrote
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aaronpk although technically your entire page includes links to all sorts of stuff like in the footer
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bnvk yes
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aaronpk it's more up to the receiving end to decide what to do with the mention, like if there's no link in the h-entry then it could just ignore it
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bnvk which is why i'm confused, as I only sent a webmention to the URL of a given post
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aaronpk not sure what you mean
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bnvk oh, so my current flow (cause my client doesn't do automagically) is create new post / reply
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bnvk https://brennannovak.com/notes/500
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bnvk then go to http://indiewebify.me/ and manually "Send Mentions" by entering the URL of my post
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aaronpk oh crazy
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bnvk everytime it says "Sent 7 webmentions" which has confused me
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aaronpk ok so you mean you're sending webmentions *from* your URL, not *to* your URL
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bnvk yes
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bnvk I guess
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aaronpk so my guess is that library is looking at all links on the page, not just links within the h-entry
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bnvk I've also done it manually from the $client->sendSupportedMentions()
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bnvk using IndieWeb\MentionClient('https://brennannovak.com/notes/500');
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bnvk interesting
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aaronpk It's not particularly useful to send webmentions to links that aren't in an h-entry, so I wonder if we should be updating the mention clients to only look for links inside an h-entry
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bnvk probably
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bnvk also, this makes sense why all the webmentions I'm sending end up showing up on "root" URL https://brennannovak.com/login
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aaronpk hahaha
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bnvk feels dense
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aaronpk hm it's already subtly documented here http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention#Which_links_should_receive_webmentions
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aaronpk which links should receive webmentions? "URLs linked to in the content, including URLs of people mentioned"
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bnvk yah
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aaronpk I would argue that should be phrased the other way around, like "which links should I send webmentions to"
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gRegor` bnvk: I can confirm, when I have sent wm from indiewebify.me it catches all links on the page.
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bnvk cool thanks gRegor`
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gRegor` I always get one back to my "all notes" page at the botom, heh.
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KevinMarks aha, just found i can log into tyepad with indieauth by putting it as the openid link on a blogger site
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gRegor` I wonder if that's not acceptable behavior, though, for indiewebify.me at least.
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aaronpk gRegor`: yeah I think the libraries should only send mentions for links inside the h-entry
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KevinMarks I'm on TWiG, what indiestuff should I mention?
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aaronpk good question... i've been playing catchup all week so I don't know what's new
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gRegor` My plugin sends to any links in the content I pass it. I just happen to only pass it the note/article content vs. the entire page
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aaronpk same
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bnvk also, performance, it always takes really long to complete the webmention, because 7 requests :P
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/ShaneHudson/491910622993735680/11628 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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aaronpk regarding bridgy mentions here... that last one should have actually said "@tantek favorited a post that mentioned indiewebcamp.com"
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@jmenglund03 .@audreywatters Plans are in the works for reclaim hackathon at #opened14? Love that #reclaim and #indieweb mvmts are combining forces. (twitter.com/_/status/492041569373929472)
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kylewm I think bridgy would've sent it as a "u-mention" instead of "u-like-of" if it'd found a better candidate for the original post on ShaneHudson.net
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aaronpk I was just talking about interpreting the contents of that html as a sentence
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bnvk kylewm: is RedWind you're python IW client?
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kylewm bnvk: yep!
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bnvk rad
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bnvk *your
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bnvk damn grammar
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gRegor` aaronpk: Interesting my @name in your reply is to my twitter name. Nickname cache?
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aaronpk nah, manual
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aaronpk added you to my users.txt so now it links to your site instead of twitter
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gRegor` cool
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aaronpk I don't like the look of @-names that are full domains
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bnvk aaronpk: what's your users.txt ?
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bnvk a list of @names —> Real Names?
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aaronpk bnvk: http://indiewebcamp.com/p3k#Local_Nicknames
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bnvk neat
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bnvk is that tsv ?
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aaronpk yeah
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aaronpk or just a bunch of spaces, not sure
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bnvk cool
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aaronparecki.com edited /p3k (+6) "/* Local Nicknames */" (view diff)
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gRegor` See also /nickanmes-cache
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gRegor` s/nickan/nickna/
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Loqi gRegor` meant to say: See also /nicknames-cache
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bnvk aaronpk: if I add my name to your wiki local names will it be automagically added to the one on your site? >:]
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aaronpk ha, collaborative nicknames cache?
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bnvk yes
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aaronpk that'd be cool
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bnvk that's basically like "groups" on Facebook or what have you :)
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bear I always envisioned that would be something discoverable on my site
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bear what are my nicknames and silo-names
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bear to allow automatic mapping
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aaronpk well most people here already link to silo profiles with rel=me, so all that's missing is specifying a nickname in their primary h-card
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rascul new owncloud release with some potentially nifty features for those who are using it
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aaronpk but i'm also interested in the "local" aspect, where I may have a nickname for someone that they don't necessarily use themselves
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rascul all my internet names are rascul or rascul3
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bear ah, I try to avoid that type of namespace collision - keeping peoples names tracked is hard enough for me
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rascul ooo nickname collision
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bear well, I am used to mapping everyone to their irc (and now twitter) handles
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bnvk gets a sick sort of glee knocking Facebook every chance I get
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rascul attempts to pronounce bnvk
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bnvk :D
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rascul eww i spit on myself trying
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bnvk :/
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bear in my head it's like benvik
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rascul benvik would be acceptable to me
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bnvk in my head I hear the actual letters
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bear b n v k ?
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bnvk yep
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bear is now going to use that
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aaronpk huh, I never considered how that sounds in my head
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bear it's like when you meet someone IRL the first time and realize you have their name all kinds of mangled
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rascul aaronpk i always try to pronounce irc names
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bnvk out of curiosity rascul and bear, you know my real name right?
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rascul it can make life interesting at times
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rascul bnvk yep
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bear bnvk nope
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bnvk Brennan Novak
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bear ahhh
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rascul you're the mailpile guy :)
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bear still like b n v k
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rascul which is how i discovered the indieweb
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bnvk rascul: yep :)
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rascul https://www.mailpile.is/#team "... meaningful open source movements like the IndieWeb."
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bnvk OMG, Evernote is so obnoxious, their Chrome extension started hijacking the ` char
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bnvk aaronpk: I just plastered your face all over a Github issue :) https://github.com/pagekite/Mailpile/issues/788
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aaronpk oh my
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bnvk also, I really want to jack the @name idea into email!!!
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johncash !tell benwerd your site looks down
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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johncash sets mode -o ChanServ
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Loqi [mention] http://caseorganic.com/articles/2014/07/19/2/indiewebcamp-2014-a-success linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014 (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] http://caseorganic.com/articles/2014/07/19/2/indiewebcamp-2014-a-success linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/posse (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] http://caseorganic.com/articles/2014/07/19/2/indiewebcamp-2014-a-success linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/Getting_Started (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] http://caseorganic.com/articles/2014/07/19/2/indiewebcamp-2014-a-success linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events (webmention)
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gRegor` Give back my `, Evernote
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kylewm johncash: what's -o ChanServ do?
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bear removes the "op" status from the chanserv user
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bear oh sorry - you were asking johncash
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tantek let's see how well following up in order works
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tantek aaronpk - I still think a "collection" post is sufficient for multiple photos
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tantek rather than a custom "gallery" type
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aaronpk hm what is this "collection" idea?
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tantek what is collection?
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Loqi A collection is a type of post that lists and/or embeds multiple other posts http://indiewebcamp.com/collection
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tantek :D
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aaronpk oh that's actually not what I want
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aaronpk regardless of what anyone calls it, is an h-entry with multiple u-photos sufficient?
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tantek you sure you don't want comments on individual photos? kinda like FB allows? ;)
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aaronpk hmmMMMMmmm
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tantek just saying...
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aaronpk sounds difficult to display
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tantek FB seems to have figured it out
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aaronpk will need to research more then
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tantek and people seem to like posting multiple photos in a post on FB
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tantek and then others seem to like commenting on individual photos inside a collection-of-photos post
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tantek and/or "liking" individual photos rather than the whole collection
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tantek while some like to "like" the whole collection
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aaronpk well implementing it as a collection would kill two birds with one stone
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cuibonobo i’m actually curious as to why the indieweb community has taken a stance against the proliferation of post types
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cuibonobo if i remember correctly, tent.io has the opposite view
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tantek cuibonobo: nature abhors complexity
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cuibonobo curious!
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tantek cuibonobo: whereas nerds love micro-sub-taxonomy
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tantek which has very little to do with anything user-focused
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aaronpk the real answer is the user-focused part
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tantek ActivityStreams is halfway between user-focused and overdone-taxonomy
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aaronpk what benefit is there to the user to distinguish post types?
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tantek aaronpk, close!
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tantek only if different posts are presented differently to the user does it make sense to create different post types for them
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cuibonobo aaronpk: i’m not sure actually. i guess it avoids trying to shoehorn data into types that don’t feel right
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aaronpk "don't feel right" from the user perspective?
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tantek cuibonobo: the mistake is starting by talking about post types rather that post presentations
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tantek s/that/than
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Loqi tantek meant to say: cuibonobo: the mistake is starting by talking about post types rather than post presentations
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cuibonobo aaronpk: no, from the creator’s perspective
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bear a post is something someone wrote to be ready by another
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aaronpk as the creator of a post, the last thing I want to do is figure out what post type i'm creating. I just want to create the thing.
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bear length, format, type, media or not -- all details that don't remove the fact that it's a post to be read
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tantek what aaronpk said. if it gets in the way of the author creating something, it's a bug.
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tantek thus having to think (more) about post types is undesirable
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tantek thus fewer post types better for the user / creator
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cuibonobo aaronpk: sure. so when i see people fretting about whether it’s a ‘gallery’ or a ‘collection’, i say: bug
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aaronpk yeah
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tantek cuibonobo: depends on where you put the thinking / complexity
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tantek the more we're able to think up front and thus produce something simpler, the more it saves others times
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aaronpk until you get to the actual implementation, at which point you need to decide things like markup and backend storage, which is more what I was talking about
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cuibonobo tantek: i feel like the point of max complexity is the interface between the data and the humans: the display app.
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tantek I have no idea why we'd bother to even talk about "max complexity"
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bnvk tantek: is that "max headrooms" evil nemesis?
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aaronpk side note: just noticed that the twitter app auto-loads photos to make it super easy to attach photos to posts
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aaronpk screenshot incoming
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tantek good design takes time for the designer, but saves time for the user
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cuibonobo tantek: you misunderstand. what i’m trying to say is the most complicated part of the system is how you figure out displaying your stuff to the user
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tantek per "I would have written a shorter letter, but I did not have the time." - http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Blaise_Pascal
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post-by-email uploaded /File:20140723-215629.jpg "Uploaded via email by Aaron Parecki <aar*@*recki.com>"
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tantek cuibonobo: not sure I agree that's the *most* complicated
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tantek but again, not sure why "most complicated part" matters to even discuss
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tantek cuibonobo: why would anyone be *for* a profliferation of post types?!?
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tantek that sounds *worse* than a proliferation of /snowflake /APIs
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tantek proliferation = more work, less interop etc.
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cuibonobo tantek: the same reason we have different file types. it’s a signifier to applications about whether or not they can actually handle this data
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aaronpk i have no idea when this was added to the twitter app cause I haven't actually clicked this button in probably like a year, but: https://indiewebcamp.com/File:20140723-215629.jpg
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tantek cuibonobo: haha and that worked out so well for the user? wrestling with different filetypes has been a nightmare over time
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tantek thanks for making the point
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bear well, having a "post" flag is the filetype - it's just not been required to have another level of post type yet
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aaronpk the only actual issue i've encountered w.r.t. post types is the automatic addition of a post name when the author did not explicitly give a post a name
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cuibonobo tantek: not handling a file type is a limitation of the app. that’s the designer’s fault. pairing users with data is our job!
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aaronpk where a "note" is a post without a name, and an "article" is a post with a name
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tantek cuibonobo: nope, reducing complexity of the system for the user is our job. and reducing file types reduces complexity
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tantek making users deal with what apps support what file types is a huge pain that was a design mistake
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tantek yes about pairing users with data. don't let the app(s) get in the way of that.
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aaronpk interestingly, we're getting back to that situation on mobile devices now
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aaronpk with android sharing intents and now that being added to iOS 8
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tantek intents != files
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aaronpk apps can register to handle different "file types" so that they appear in menus
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tantek aaronpk - also a short-sighted approach
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aaronpk not literal file types tho, cause I believe all image types are handled the same
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cuibonobo tantek: making the data more granular reduces complexity of the app, so we can focus on making a better experience for users
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tantek as proven by "share" - every app registers = unusable long menu
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aaronpk we're about to see that happen on iOS very soon
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tantek cuibonobo: I don't believe making the data more granular reduces the complexity of the app
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tantek silos love such granularity btw
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tantek it's called lock-in
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tantek every silo/app having their own file type
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tantek so you're stuck with that silo/app for the data you create there
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tantek cuibonobo: ergo, more granularity = worse for the user
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cuibonobo straw man! the data is locked up because we don’t have access to the file type
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tantek cuibonobo: not a strawman, but rather, status quo on desktop systems
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tantek granular file types = incentive for apps to make all their own (non standard) to lock-in users, and then evolve their proprietary file types so that no one else can open them without data loss
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tantek e.g. PPT, Keynote, etc.
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tantek real examples, that cause real headaches, every day. not strawman.
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cuibonobo open file formats can be manipulated by most apps. my hope is that well-documented data formats will do the same thing
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tantek if tent.io is pursuing proliferation of post types - that's so laughably wrong it will be entertaining to watch the subsequent chaos
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tantek cuibonobo: you'll notice those working on open file formats try to minimize the total number of such open file formats
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tantek and re-use existing open file formats rather than make up others
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tantek or rather, making up new ones (e.g. the abcML trend of the 2000s) resulted in a bunch of granular crap no one could use
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tantek instead, if it was rich-text-like, the answer became, always just use HTML, for maximum compat and ease of use
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cuibonobo of course. there’s no reason to make a format if existing ones would do.
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tantek cuibonobo: of course there is! lock-in your users to using (paying for) your app!
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cuibonobo that’s an incentive for a silo…
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tantek right!
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tantek nearly all "native apps" are silos
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cuibonobo you’re punishing everyone for a silo mistake
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tantek welcome to the app dystopia that is
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aaronpk this conversation got weird
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tantek apps on desktops with file types made this mistake LONG before web silos ever existed
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tantek it's a well understood incentive mechanism for file format babel
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gRegor` popcorn.gif
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cuibonobo which were *also* silos because they didn’t publish specs for their file types
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tantek aaronpk, on another topic, in http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-07-23/line/1406139077 when you said "the tweet version was not showing enough context, so I rewrote the tweet as a summary " <-- it sounds like you added a "name" to your "note" and made it into a blog post without realizing it.
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tantek cuibonobo: why would you publish specs for your proprietary file type when you want to lock your users into using your app?
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cuibonobo why does microformats publish a spec? to create an ecosystem of apps that can consume the data
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tantek cuibonobo: microformats is a community not a specific app
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cuibonobo boom. exactly. we are creating apps that consume the microformats data type
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bnvk catch y'all later ;)
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tantek cuibonobo: continuing with the example of microformats, we probably let *too many* microformats get developed in the 2000s
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tantek hence why with microformats2 we only grandfathered those early microformats that actually had multiple deployed implementations and non-trivial use on the web
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tantek turned out that fewer microformats was better
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tantek so we're back to fewer types better
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tantek based on experience
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tantek keeps scrolling in the logs
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cuibonobo tantek: it makes sense that the ‘worthiness test’ (if we were to call it anything) was the number of apps that actually used the format
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tantek interesting semi-indieweb related post: http://hackeducation.com/2014/07/22/reclaim-your-domain-hackathon/
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aaronpk tantek: no that tweet text definitely was not the "name" for the note
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aaronpk if I had rewritten it to not mention @anomalily then maybe it could be the name
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tantek aaronpk - ok - perhaps you were working your way towards writing a "name" of that post then
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tantek and got most of the way there
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tantek I think that may be a general pattern for POSSEing to Twitter - if you find just a sentence (or 2?) from your note does not make sense on its own when POSSEd, perhaps you should expand your note to a post and put the summary in the name
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tantek cuibonobo: yes, it's *a* good worthiness test. there are other aspects too - such as re-use, either as-is or as a building block (composability) into something else.
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tantek another good sign is when someone discovers a "kill 2 birds with 1 stone" difference of one approach vs. another, as aaronpk noted about "collection" over "gallery".
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tantek what does "combining forces" mean here specifically? https://twitter.com/jmenglund03/status/492041569373929472
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@jmenglund03 .@audreywatters Plans are in the works for reclaim hackathon at #opened14? Love that #reclaim and #indieweb mvmts are combining forces. (twitter.com/_/status/492041569373929472)
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tantek.com created /users.txt (+29) "r" (view diff)
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tantek what is users.txt?
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Loqi A nicknames cache is a way indieweb sites store information about people to improve the user experience of the site owner referring, mention, and/or linking to those people http://indiewebcamp.com/users.txt
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tantek.com created /nickanmes-cache (+29) "r per linked typo from IRC log" (view diff)
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kylewm.com edited /nicknames-cache (+60) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ add link to more info about Red Wind" (view diff)
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kylewm.com edited /nicknames-cache (-40) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ change wiki-links to relative URLs" (view diff)
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tantek is now re-reading logs from what he typed above
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tantek re-reading marker reached.
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tantek reads http://caseorganic.com/articles/2014/07/19/2/indiewebcamp-2014-a-success
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tantek !tell caseorganic I see markup in cleartext: [indiewebcamp.com indiewebcamp.com]! in http://caseorganic.com/articles/2014/07/19/2/indiewebcamp-2014-a-success
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell her that when I see her next
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tantek !tell caseorganic nice summary post about IndieWebCamp 2014!
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell her that when I see her next
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kylewm tantek: could you weigh in on http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-07-23#t1406136898 (why does relmeauth need a silo backlink)?
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kylewm sorry if you weren't there yet in log-reading
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tantek kylewm: pretty sure I covered it before (maybe in #microformats? ) but clearly it neesd an FAQ
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bear @kylewm he did - but on the other channel: " the backlink requirements comes from rel-me processing in general"
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tantek relmeauth is composed of two building blocks, rel-me, and OAuth
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tantek rel-me requires bidirectional linking for confirmation of identity consolidation
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tantek so that's why it *started* that way
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tantek or rather how it *got* that way
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tantek however, since then, it's become apparent that there are usability / error detection & recovery reasons for keeping such a double-opt-in mechanism for auth delegation
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aaronpk things like SMS and Persona don't require back-links (because it's not possible)
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tantek e.g. it is harder to screw up, as a user, with delegating your auth to a specific other account, if you have to do the bidirectional thing
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tantek aaronpk - with SMS and Persona, the "back link" is instead an out-of-band custom procedure you have to do to set those up
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tantek many more steps than just setting your profile link on a silo profile to your own website
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aaronpk no the out-of-band part replaces the OAuth grant of the OAuth providers
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aaronpk it's not part of the setup
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tantek no the out-of-band setup I speak of is how you have setup your Persona
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tantek or with TOPH, how you have to setup your TOPH device
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aaronpk TOTP is an exception here because it requires registration with the auth server
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tantek SMS is interesting in that it requires no setup - other than buying a cell phone I suppose (and all the contract etc. setup that requires)
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aaronpk SMS is a good example because all it takes is adding your phone number to your site
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tantek TOTP is not an exception. Persona requires such registration too.
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aaronpk in theory persona does not
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aaronpk in practice everyone just used the persona service that requires registration
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tantek I'll wait til there's an example of persona not requiring setup. Until then, it requires custom setup/reg.
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aaronpk but either way that was something you as a user registered for once. with TOTP you will need to register with each auth server.
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tantek with the rel-me back link it's something you as a user only setup once on your silo profile
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tantek same thing
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aaronpk there are 3 classes of providers going on here
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aaronpk SMS: no setup
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aaronpk OAuth providers: require adding a backlink
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aaronpk TOTP: requires a shared secret between you and each auth server
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aaronpk TOTP is kind of a weird exception here so let's not talk about it for the purposes of this discussion
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cuibonobo aaronpk: why is it that when i log in via indieauth, i always get the “Authorize IndieAuth to use your account?” screen at the silo? the IndieAuth app already appears on my list of approved applications.
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aaronpk cuibonobo: it depends on the silo
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aaronpk you don't see that every time on github
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tantek SMS requires getting a cell phone - that's A LOT of setup
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aaronpk (or a google voice number or twilio account)
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tantek e.g. go to a new country - let's see how easy it is for you to "setup" SMS IndieAuth
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cuibonobo aaronpk: aha. you’re right. github went through as expected
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aaronpk cuibonobo: I believe it's using twitter's "authorize" method right now instead of "authenticate", authenticate doesn't show the prompt the second time https://dev.twitter.com/docs/api/1/get/oauth/authenticate
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aaronpk I should probably switch that
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Loqi I agree
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tantek.com edited /2014 (+147) "/* Blog */ add caseorganic blog post" (view diff)
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aaronpk hm it should actually be doing authenticate by default according to the omniauth plugin https://github.com/arunagw/omniauth-twitter#authentication-options
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aaronpk filing a bug...
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cuibonobo huzzah! we found a bug!
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aaronpk https://github.com/aaronpk/IndieAuth/issues/66
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tantek.com created /Template:caseorganic (+122) "for convenience" (view diff)
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aaronpk tantek: I'm talking about setup *after* the account exists. Like you don't consider "get a Github account" part of IndieAuth setup
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tantek.com edited /2014 (+7) "/* Blog */ /cite" (view diff)
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aaronpk so assuming you already have an SMS account, Github account, Twitter account, etc, what are the steps required to make it work with IndieAuth
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tantek interesting
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tantek aaronpk - what do you think of showing an *error* if someone's rel=me twitter etc. actually links to a *different* website
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aaronpk like, preventing it from working, or just showing a message?
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tantek both
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aaronpk hm, so it would only work if either a) your twitter account links to your website or b) your twitter account does not link to any website
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tantek like, hey, you're site user.example.com is claiming to be twitter acount @example which is already connected to a different site!
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tantek s/you're/your
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Loqi tantek meant to say: like, hey, your site user.example.com is claiming to be twitter acount @example which is already connected to a different site!
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tantek so we at least can catch those errors
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snarfed hey aaronpk, welcome back!
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aaronpk thanks snarfed!
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snarfed just fyi, looks like webmention.io 500s on target pages with emoji :/
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aaronpk oh dear
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snarfed https://www.brid.gy/log?start_time=1406157833&key=aglzfmJyaWQtZ3lyNQsSCFJlc3BvbnNlIid0YWc6dHdpdHRlci5jb20sMjAxMzo0OTE3NTMzMjg3Mzc0MDY5NzcM
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snarfed low priority, obviously
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aaronpk unicode isn't enough anymore
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snarfed :P
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snarfed "128 chars should be enough for anyone"
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aaronpk oh hey that's a mysql error, I know how to do that
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gRegor` We need unicode 2.0. With shiny, rounded corners.
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aaronpk utf8mb4
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KartikPrabhu yeah that one ^
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aaronpk snarfed: can you re-proces that?
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aaronpk if not I can just do it manually
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snarfed aaronpk: click the retry button when you're ready: https://www.brid.gy/twitter/t
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snarfed self serve :P
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aaronpk wowie
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aaronpk that's weird, it didn't fix it
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aaronpk that's usually how I fix that error
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snarfed interesting, for that one, looks like actually both the source and target pages have emoji
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aaronpk will have to come back to it later. thought it would be an easy fix. https://github.com/aaronpk/webmention.io/issues/20
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snarfed np
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kylewm snarfed: looks like https://github.com/jasonkgreen joined GH just to discuss a Bridgy issue, that's awesome!
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snarfed kylewm: i know! he's been a pretty heavy bridgy publish user
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tantek cool!