#indiewebcamp 2014-07-23

2014-07-23 UTC
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gregorlove.com
edited /wiki/redesign (+355) "/* Issues */ summarizing tantek"
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tantek
gRegor`: I appreciate you taking the time to summarize my rants in a more productive fashion :)
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ike.io
created /User:Ike.io (+69) "Created page with " == Ike.io | Isaac Lewis == [[File:http://f.ike.io/h/avatar128.jpg]]""
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gRegor`
Helps me remember for when I'm working on stuff. :)
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tantek.com
created /Deviantart (+24) "r"
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tantek.com
edited /why (+188) "/* Avoiding problems */ note content theft separate from abuse, add deviantART example"
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tantek.com
edited /why (+25) "/* Content theft */ emphasis"
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kylewm
crossdiver: ike.io is empty! switching off jekyll?
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crossdiver
kylewm -- yeah, hopefully. I think I'm switching to Bumble on DigitalOcean. Jekyll is a paaaaaiiiiiiinn
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crossdiver
espesh on gh-pages
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tantek
fascinating
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tantek
what is Bumble?
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kylewm
augh, tantek I can never tell if you are asking Loqi
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Loqi
dude
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kylewm
should I assume you are alwys asking Loqi?
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kylewm
adam was at IWC SF this year
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benwerd
Nice, two blogging engines with the same name
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ike.io
edited /User:Ike.io (+210) "/* Ike.io | Isaac Lewis */"
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kylewm
it's sort of like the birthday paradox
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kylewm
put enough blogging engines in a github, and two are very likely to have the same name
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crossdiver
tantek -- Bumble is a really simple markdown-based blog platform on node.js built by Adam Brault: https://github.com/adambrault/bumble
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tantek
cool! another Node engine coming along. mko is working on a Node solution too.
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crossdiver
kewl. we're using Bumble for the &yet blog, and most of our personal ones too.
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crossdiver
what does mko's node solution look like?
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tantek
he's supposedly going to deploy and launch by this Friday
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tantek
with a ton of functionality
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tantek
he's heads down cranking hard on it
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crossdiver
nice! is there a repo to watch?
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tantek
normally I'm skeptical about such claims, however, in this case I both know him, and have watched him ask all the right detailed in-depth questions that indicate that he's making incredibly rapid progress.
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kylewm.com
created /Bumble (+246) "stub in with crossdiver's description/definition"
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tantek
and he said we could give him a hard time if he doesn't ship by Friday
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crossdiver
personally, I'm a huge node fan -- so I'm really excited about seeing more node momentum in the indieweb community
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tantek
personally I'm really excited about seeing different backend approaches to indieweb solutions
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tantek.com
edited /POSSE (+1383) "add Jeremy Keith POSSEing examples, add headers for all IndieWeb Examples"
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kylewm.com
edited /Flickr (+592) "/* Feeds */"
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snarfed
tantek: re mediawiki kbd shortcuts…if you're on firefox, try searching for the link w/keyboard, then press enter. e.g. for the Page link, press ', P, A, enter
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snarfed
(you may have to enable some search-by-link setting. i've been doing this for decades, and kept my ff config, so i've long forgotten :P)
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snarfed
i click on most links in web pages w/keyboard, not w/mouse (thank god)
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tantek
there used to be actual ACCESSKEY shortcuts
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tantek
I'll look into it more
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kylewm
bear: why didn't i think of that
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bear
I KNOW RITE!?!
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androte79
is there a microformats feed reader?
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KartikPrabhu
androte79: not a full-functional one afaik... barnabywalters is working on one though and so are others
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androte79
all the feeds in my reader are indie websites
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KartikPrabhu
that is a good thing :P
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kylewm.com
uploaded /File:indiereader-IWC-2014-07-22.png "Screenshot of IndieReader developed at IWC 2014"
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kylewm.com
edited /reader (+508) "/* IndieWeb examples */"
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kylewm.com
edited /reader (-14) "/* = Ben Werdmüller, Aaron Parecki, Emma Kuo */"
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kylewm.com
edited /reader (+5) "/* Ben Werdmüller, Aaron Parecki, Emma Kuo */ remote float:right from indiereader screenshot"
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kylewm.com
edited /reader (+57) "/* Ben Werdmüller, Aaron Parecki, Emma Kuo */ add link to source"
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@erinjo
@natematias @benwerd I <3 algorithms and would be happy to discuss what auditability might mean for #indieweb apps.
(twtr.io/onz9shXU00)
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@natematias
@erinjo @benwerd reach out to @niftyc and @kkarahal, who I think may love to chat about integrating auditability into indieweb
(twtr.io/oo40jPPuER)
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kylewm
does anybody have any insight on why the rate limit is so restrictive on this Flickr api call? https://www.flickr.com/services/api/flickr.activity.userPhotos.html
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snarfed
kylewm: the poll frequency is configurable per silo, so we can make flickr 1h if we need to
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snarfed
at least, if it's 1 per hr per user, as opposed to per api key
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kylewm
definitely pretty sure it's per user and not API key
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kylewm
3600 / hour is the limit per key
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kylewm
snarfed: i guess the rate limit just makes my spidey sense tingly...like they don't want us to use that method for some unstated reason
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snarfed
kylewm: yeah good instincts
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kylewm
given that no one who POSSEs to Flickr has asked about it yet, I'm inclined to backburner :)
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snarfed
in practice, silos generally only notice apps when they go above a certain total qps threshold, and bridgy's nowhere near that, so i wouldn't worry too much
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snarfed
yeah, good point
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kylewm
I did finish the oauth-dropin for it though
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kylewm
might be useful for future Oauth1 targets
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snarfed
oh awesome! thanks!
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snarfed
looking fwd to the PR
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snarfed
kylewm: trying to posse an fb reshare? :P
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kylewm
snarfed: heh, just wanted to see what the error looked like
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@anikasaigal
IndieWebCamp happening in Brighton in September http://indiewebcamp.com/ #indieweb via @benwerd @timoreilly cc @SomeHats
(twtr.io/ooGjY5niRs)
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@anikasaigal
@michaelgold hey! How are the open source events going? Came across @indiewebcamp happening in Brighton& check out @withknown @benwerd
(twtr.io/ooJGws5uh8)
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cweiske
tantek, regarding your question: I still cannot login with my own indieauth server into indiewebcamp.com
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cweiske
i'm forced to log in with github
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cweiske
and I only was able to implement my own indieauth server because I digged into the depths of indieauth.com code and asking questions here
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cweiske
$ curl -I webmention.org
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cweiske
HTTP/1.1 503 Service Temporarily Unavailable
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cweiske
Server: nginx/1.4.4
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KartikPrabhu
any messages Loqi?
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Loqi
Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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@ShaneHudson
@reichenstein @markboulton It certainly has done that. Though have you seen http://indiewebcamp.com
(twtr.io/oohXpp1N80)
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suda.co.uk
edited /2014/UK/Guest_List (+191) "Added Brian Suda"
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androte38
!tell benwerd @names link to a profile page 404 on werd.Io
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@luclegay
Merci aux participants du dernier #MousseParis et rendez-vous le 22 juillet 2021 https://www.facebook.com/events/686358418098700 #indieweb https://twitter.com/luclegay/status/491980435870994432/photo/1
(twtr.io/op7U9k6TLY)
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@kyle_wm
Got a good little chuckle out of this quote from Brid.gy’s launch announcement, from before it played with indieweb …https://kylewm.com/reply/2014/07/23/1
(twtr.io/op7hyvHfUo)
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aaron_pk
brace yourselves
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aaron_pk
the !tells are coming
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aaronpk
bring it on!
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Loqi
aaronpk: mko left you a message on 7/16 at 4:07pm: When you've got a few minutes to chat, I'd love to understand better how to enable authentication for micropub. I didn't actually realize IndieAuth provided a bearer/access token.
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Loqi
aaronpk: bret left you a message on 7/18 at 10:53am: I have been reading your site and caseorganic's site for the last few months in a feed reader comparing your atom feed to the hfeed that Barnaby built
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Loqi
aaronpk: bret left you a message on 7/18 at 10:55am: the h feed is consistently more interesting and useful as it contains the actual photos of the post and gives a better feed with better summaries
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Loqi
aaronpk: tantek left you a message on 7/18 at 11:45am: this is a freebie. welcome back. and take your time with all the tells. people are patient. it's all good. :)
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Loqi
aaronpk: mko left you a message on 7/19 at 5:15pm: Not sure if this was intentional, but a GET on your webmention endpoint no longer displays the informational page you had there before: http://aaronparecki.com/webmention
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Loqi
aaronpk: bnvk left you a message 3 days, 2 hours ago: see that last webmention of mine? Does Loqi interpret #IndieWeb tag as a link to IWC.com ?
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Loqi
aaronpk: gRegor` left you a message on 7/21 at 11:04am: #indiewebcamp main channel misses you. ;)
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Loqi
aaronpk: tantek left you a message on 7/21 at 8:10pm: bummer that http://indiewebcamp.com/indieweb-messaging says it's out of date at the top, as I wanted to refer to it in reply to this: https://www.facebook.com/evan.prodromou/posts/10152578309725505?comment_id=10152579191330505&offset=0&total_comments=12
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gRegor`
!tell aaronpk Welcome back!
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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barnabywalters
new rule: all communication with aaronpk must be carried out via !tells
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gRegor`
That wasn't so bad
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gRegor`
!tellmention protocol
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aaronpk
!tell mko this page is the rough draft of how IndieAuth provides an access token http://indiewebcamp.com/auth-brainstorming
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Loqi
aaronpk: gRegor` left you a message 2 minutes ago: Welcome back!
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk
!tell bret that's interesting, does that mean I should a) drop my atom feed completely or b) continue maintaining a specific rendering of my content as an atom feed?
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk
tantek: thanks for the freebie :)
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aaronpk
!tell mko how'd you get http://aaronparecki.com/webmention as my webmention endpoint? mine actually ends in .php (yes I should change that I know)
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk
hunts for the "last webmention of mine" from bnvk
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aaronpk
wonders if the !tells should also include a link to the line in the logs of the original tell for context?
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aaronpk
!tell bnvk no, it looks like your footer links to indiewebcamp.com and you sent a webmention for that link
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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aaronpk
tantek: hm there's a lot of good stuff still on /indieweb-messaging, I just didn't want to confuse people who were looking at the rest of the indieauth pages http://indiewebcamp.com/Category:IndieAuth
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kylewm
aaronpk: there was also a RelMeAuth question that no one else answered (afaik) ... why do the silos need to have a link back to your domain?
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bear
indieweb-messaging?
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aaronpk
basically I need to update it to be private posts that require an access token to view
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aaronpk
kylewm: hm I should probably search the logs for mentions of me or indieauth now
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bear
I would love an updated page about that - i've got most of indieweb access tokens working (I think) but I need to do a self-review to make sure it flows properly
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kylewm
heh, this was hmans asking about having both hmans.io and hmans.de
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kylewm
if that helps your search
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aaronpk
!tell cweiske I apologise for the current state of the indieauth docs, but I figure it would be better to develop in the public wiki rather than hiding out for 2 months and emerging with an IndieAuth Stone Tablet ( re: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-07-22#t1406064130 )
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk
!tell cweiske and correct, there really is no "scope" in OAuth 1. That was something Twitter bolted on top at the application level rather than request level
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@CharlesNepote
RT @luclegay: Merci aux participants du dernier #MousseParis et rendez-vous le 22 juillet 2021 https://www.facebook.com/events/686358418098700 #indieweb http://t.c…
(twtr.io/opA89fqtWg)
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@sophiemaheo
RT @luclegay: Merci aux participants du dernier #MousseParis et rendez-vous le 22 juillet 2021 https://www.facebook.com/events/686358418098700 #indieweb http://t.c…
(twtr.io/opAreFtxu8)
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aaronpk
tantek: regarding flat-file storage http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-07-21#t1405959336 I actually have open-sourced it now at https://github.com/aaronpk/p3k-core but it's horribly un-documented and specific to my implementation
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aaronpk
stickers are a great idea for my specific post types
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aaronpk
is going backwards in the IRC logs
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aaronpk
hm is JonathanNeal still around? Just got to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-07-20#t1405891565
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JonathanNeal
What about him? Haven’t seen him around for ages.
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aaronpk
so that sounds basically exactly like IndieAuth (which is based on OAuth 2)
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aaronpk
the terminology you're looking for is "scope" (regarding http://i.imgur.com/fw2A40i.png)
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aaronpk
and it's basically all documented here http://indiewebcamp.com/auth-brainstorming
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JonathanNeal
So “scope” is the list of permitted access by the host?
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aaronparecki.com
edited /scope (+53) "add dfn"
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aaronpk
what is scope?
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Loqi
In OAuth terminology, scope is a way to limit what parts of your account are accessible by third-party applications http://indiewebcamp.com/scope
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aaronpk
there we go JonathanNeal ^
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JonathanNeal
is confused.
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aaronpk
JonathanNeal: right now, ownyourgram.com requests the "post" scope when you authorize it for your site
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aaronpk
because it expects to be able to create new posts
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JonathanNeal
yes, so that’s the scope requested on demand, and I am talking about predefining some approved scopes (like the img you referenced)
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JonathanNeal
aaronpk: is there a github project for setting this up on your own server?
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aaronpk
pre-defining scopes would be something your authorization server would do if no scope parameter is present
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aaronpk
JonathanNeal: I don't have an authorization server other than indieauth.com up on github yet
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aaronpk
I'm in the middle of building a separate authorization server for p3k, which maybe I should write as its own project
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JonathanNeal
Oh, and I’m looking for a file I just drop into my server. If it’s PHP, I just do something like require_once and plug in the auth where I need it.
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aaronpk
huh, i'm not quite sure what you're looking for then. it's a little more complicated than tyat
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snarfed
kylewm aaronpk: i also couldn't figure out why relmeauth needed the silo rel-me link back to your site
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snarfed
i can understand for other offline rel-me uses (spidering, building a graph, etc), to prove that you own both the site and the silo acct
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snarfed
...but for relmeauth, you prove that you own the silo acct by authing with it, which seems like enough
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aaronpk
actually I had the same question when I was in the depths of the indieauth code a couple weeks ago
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aaronpk
I was hoping tantek would be around to clarify the original reasoning behind it
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snarfed
maybe for the non-interactive-auth use cases
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tantek.com
edited /events/2014-07-30-homebrew-website-club (+91) "/* URLs */ add SF indie event and FB posse copy"
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aaronpk
galleries are geting up there in my "itching" list
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KartikPrabhu
galleries are posts with many images?
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aaronpk
not sure the right word for it
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aaronpk
maybe albums
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aaronpk
but yeah just a short post with a bunch of photos
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KartikPrabhu
i thought that was a "note with photos"...
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KartikPrabhu
tries to beat a half-dead horse
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aaronpk
point is I can only attach one photo to a note right now
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KartikPrabhu
aah yes that makes sense :)
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aaronpk
my current workaround was to post an article :) http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2014/07/19/1/capybara-party
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KartikPrabhu
do you not consider a bunch of photos as 'long-form' content then?
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gRegor`
KartikPrabhu: I almost said "you mean 'note with—OUCH!"
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aaronpk
not if it's just a short note with many photos
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aaronpk
that may be a personal distinction that nobody else shares, but that's ok :)
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KartikPrabhu
sure... these are fuzzy distinctions anyway. As long as you actually post photos I don't really care whether you call it a note or article or gallery :P
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aaronpk
ultimately it will still be published as an h-entry with many p-photo properties. the distinction is mostly internal to my code base
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KartikPrabhu
many p-photos... interesting
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gRegor`
Not u-photos?
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aaronpk
uh right that
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aaronpk
my bad
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gRegor`
np, just clarifying
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gRegor`
I, uh, kinda started the big discussion of differences between "photo" and "note with photo" :)
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gRegor`
I (kinda) understand it better now.
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aaronpk
that's been going on a while :)
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KartikPrabhu
beats the dead horse harder
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KartikPrabhu
the current definition of u-photo seems to be not for this purpose though.
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KartikPrabhu
u-photo - a representative photo or image for the entry, e.g. primary photo for an article or subject-cropped photo, suitable for use in a link-preview (example)
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aaronpk
hm interseting point
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KartikPrabhu
that is why I have been picking one photo from a gallery as the u-photo for the article, which also shows up in my feed-preview
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gRegor`
aaronpk: mko's gist helped me understand the distinction he was making. Thoughts? https://gist.github.com/mko/f05e8cb0d2423f6deaa7
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aaronpk
my guess is any current feed readers would just use the first photo in the array
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KartikPrabhu
aaronpk: yes... i think that is how it would work.... but then the defintion should be updated.
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gRegor`
Summary of the discussion, too: http://indiewebcamp.com/photo#Discussion
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aaronpk
so i'm not sure what just happened here. I started this out as a short reply, but then realized I needed to add line breaks between the topics, then realized the tweet version was not showing enough context, so I rewrote the tweet as a summary http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2014/07/23/1/ vs https://twitter.com/aaronpk/status/492008861293740033
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KartikPrabhu
aaronpk: looks good to me
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aaronparecki.com
edited /scope (+896) "add sections to collect silo and indieweb examples of scopes"
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aaronpk
KartikPrabhu: the only problem is the content that went to twitter isn't anywhere on my site
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KartikPrabhu
as in the summary of what you wrote?
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aaronpk
I have just been informed that my website is blocked by the City of Portland network
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KartikPrabhu
aaronpk: wait what!
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mko
Huh. Why?
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aaronpk
don't know yet, trying to find out
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Loqi
mko: aaronpk left you a message 1 hour, 50 minutes ago: this page is the rough draft of how IndieAuth provides an access token http://indiewebcamp.com/auth-brainstorming
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Loqi
mko: aaronpk left you a message 1 hour, 48 minutes ago: how'd you get http://aaronparecki.com/webmention as my webmention endpoint? mine actually ends in .php (yes I should change that I know)
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mko
Gah
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mko
aaronpk: Thanks and I got it by apparently forgetting to type the .php
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mko
:-)
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kylewm.com
edited /payment (+124) "/* Articles */ add aaronpk's comparison of venmo and square cash"
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tommorris
would love some eyes on http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-tag-issues - just suggested we ought to formally deprecate rel-tag because of scoping rules
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tommorris
and h-entry's category property does the same thing without the HTML5 scoping rules headaches
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tommorris
(or rather the headaches caused by lack of any scoping rules. the other alternative is we use RDFa's scoping rules, but that's kind of antithetical to most of the design of microformats.)
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gRegor`
kylewm: Did you manually specify the site icon in this note? https://kylewm.com/note/2014/07/23/1
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gRegor`
Mailpile's icon, that is
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kylewm
you're too fast, gRegor`
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gRegor`
Hehe
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gRegor`
I was just curious if it was something automatic or manual
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gRegor`
Oh, it's in your addressbook.
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kylewm
gRegor`: guessing the connection was interrupted while I was mirroring the icon...
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gRegor`
Hm? The icon looks fine
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gRegor`
Was just wondering how you got it. But I detective'd it out.
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kylewm
I did manually specify it when I put them in my address book
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Loqi
cweiske: aaronpk left you a message 2 hours, 58 minutes ago: I apologise for the current state of the indieauth docs, but I figure it would be better to develop in the public wiki rather than hiding out for 2 months and emerging with an IndieAuth Stone Tablet ( re: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-07-22#t1406064130 )
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Loqi
cweiske: aaronpk left you a message 2 hours, 56 minutes ago: and correct, there really is no "scope" in OAuth 1. That was something Twitter bolted on top at the application level rather than request level
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Loqi
bnvk: aaronpk left you a message 3 hours, 24 minutes ago: no, it looks like your footer links to indiewebcamp.com and you sent a webmention for that link
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bnvk
Loqi: shoot, I wish I knew what aaronpk: was answering with that response :P
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Loqi
grins profusely
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bnvk
haya
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aaronpk
we're finding the limits of !tell here
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bnvk
hehe
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bnvk
do you remember aaronpk ?
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kylewm
aaronpk: love your idea about adding a log URL to the end of the tell
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bnvk
damn magic kylewm :)
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bnvk
oh whoa, so sending mention sends a request to every url that's contained with a what- "p-note" ?
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aaronpk
not sure what you mean
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aaronpk
you wrote your code I assume
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aaronpk
most people only send webmentions to links contained within the h-entry
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bnvk
hehe, I mean I'm using the webmention lib that I think Barnaby wrote
#
aaronpk
although technically your entire page includes links to all sorts of stuff like in the footer
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aaronpk
it's more up to the receiving end to decide what to do with the mention, like if there's no link in the h-entry then it could just ignore it
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bnvk
which is why i'm confused, as I only sent a webmention to the URL of a given post
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aaronpk
not sure what you mean
#
bnvk
oh, so my current flow (cause my client doesn't do automagically) is create new post / reply
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bnvk
then go to http://indiewebify.me/ and manually "Send Mentions" by entering the URL of my post
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aaronpk
oh crazy
#
bnvk
everytime it says "Sent 7 webmentions" which has confused me
#
aaronpk
ok so you mean you're sending webmentions *from* your URL, not *to* your URL
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bnvk
I guess
#
aaronpk
so my guess is that library is looking at all links on the page, not just links within the h-entry
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bnvk
I've also done it manually from the $client->sendSupportedMentions()
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bnvk
using IndieWeb\MentionClient('https://brennannovak.com/notes/500');
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bnvk
interesting
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aaronpk
It's not particularly useful to send webmentions to links that aren't in an h-entry, so I wonder if we should be updating the mention clients to only look for links inside an h-entry
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bnvk
probably
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bnvk
also, this makes sense why all the webmentions I'm sending end up showing up on "root" URL https://brennannovak.com/login
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aaronpk
hahaha
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bnvk
feels dense
#
aaronpk
which links should receive webmentions? "URLs linked to in the content, including URLs of people mentioned"
#
aaronpk
I would argue that should be phrased the other way around, like "which links should I send webmentions to"
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gRegor`
bnvk: I can confirm, when I have sent wm from indiewebify.me it catches all links on the page.
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bnvk
cool thanks gRegor`
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gRegor`
I always get one back to my "all notes" page at the botom, heh.
#
KevinMarks
aha, just found i can log into tyepad with indieauth by putting it as the openid link on a blogger site
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gRegor`
I wonder if that's not acceptable behavior, though, for indiewebify.me at least.
#
aaronpk
gRegor`: yeah I think the libraries should only send mentions for links inside the h-entry
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KevinMarks
I'm on TWiG, what indiestuff should I mention?
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aaronpk
good question... i've been playing catchup all week so I don't know what's new
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gRegor`
My plugin sends to any links in the content I pass it. I just happen to only pass it the note/article content vs. the entire page
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bnvk
also, performance, it always takes really long to complete the webmention, because 7 requests :P
#
aaronpk
regarding bridgy mentions here... that last one should have actually said "@tantek favorited a post that mentioned indiewebcamp.com"
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#
@jmenglund03
.@audreywatters Plans are in the works for reclaim hackathon at #opened14? Love that #reclaim and #indieweb mvmts are combining forces.
(twtr.io/opVJTwP0QY)
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kylewm
I think bridgy would've sent it as a "u-mention" instead of "u-like-of" if it'd found a better candidate for the original post on ShaneHudson.net
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aaronpk
I was just talking about interpreting the contents of that html as a sentence
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bnvk
kylewm: is RedWind you're python IW client?
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kylewm
bnvk: yep!
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bnvk
*your
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bnvk
damn grammar
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gRegor`
aaronpk: Interesting my @name in your reply is to my twitter name. Nickname cache?
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aaronpk
nah, manual
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aaronpk
added you to my users.txt so now it links to your site instead of twitter
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gRegor`
cool
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aaronpk
I don't like the look of @-names that are full domains
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bnvk
aaronpk: what's your users.txt ?
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bnvk
a list of @names —> Real Names?
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bnvk
neat
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bnvk
is that tsv ?
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aaronpk
or just a bunch of spaces, not sure
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bnvk
cool
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aaronparecki.com
edited /p3k (+6) "/* Local Nicknames */"
(view diff)
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gRegor`
See also /nickanmes-cache
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gRegor`
s/nickan/nickna/
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Loqi
gRegor` meant to say: See also /nicknames-cache
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bnvk
aaronpk: if I add my name to your wiki local names will it be automagically added to the one on your site? >:]
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aaronpk
ha, collaborative nicknames cache?
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aaronpk
that'd be cool
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bnvk
that's basically like "groups" on Facebook or what have you :)
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bear
I always envisioned that would be something discoverable on my site
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bear
what are my nicknames and silo-names
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bear
to allow automatic mapping
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aaronpk
well most people here already link to silo profiles with rel=me, so all that's missing is specifying a nickname in their primary h-card
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rascul
new owncloud release with some potentially nifty features for those who are using it
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aaronpk
but i'm also interested in the "local" aspect, where I may have a nickname for someone that they don't necessarily use themselves
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rascul
all my internet names are rascul or rascul3
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bear
ah, I try to avoid that type of namespace collision - keeping peoples names tracked is hard enough for me
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rascul
ooo nickname collision
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bear
well, I am used to mapping everyone to their irc (and now twitter) handles
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bnvk
gets a sick sort of glee knocking Facebook every chance I get
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rascul
attempts to pronounce bnvk
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rascul
eww i spit on myself trying
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bear
in my head it's like benvik
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rascul
benvik would be acceptable to me
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bnvk
in my head I hear the actual letters
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bear
b n v k ?
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bear
is now going to use that
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aaronpk
huh, I never considered how that sounds in my head
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bear
it's like when you meet someone IRL the first time and realize you have their name all kinds of mangled
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rascul
aaronpk i always try to pronounce irc names
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bnvk
out of curiosity rascul and bear, you know my real name right?
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rascul
it can make life interesting at times
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rascul
bnvk yep
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bear
bnvk nope
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bnvk
Brennan Novak
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bear
ahhh
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rascul
you're the mailpile guy :)
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bear
still like b n v k
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rascul
which is how i discovered the indieweb
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bnvk
rascul: yep :)
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rascul
https://www.mailpile.is/#team "... meaningful open source movements like the IndieWeb."
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bnvk
OMG, Evernote is so obnoxious, their Chrome extension started hijacking the ` char
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bnvk
aaronpk: I just plastered your face all over a Github issue :) https://github.com/pagekite/Mailpile/issues/788
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bnvk
also, I really want to jack the @name idea into email!!!
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johncash
!tell benwerd your site looks down
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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johncash
sets mode -o ChanServ
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gRegor`
Give back my `, Evernote
bnvk and defmoves joined the channel
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kylewm
johncash: what's -o ChanServ do?
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bear
removes the "op" status from the chanserv user
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bear
oh sorry - you were asking johncash
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tantek
let's see how well following up in order works
#
tantek
aaronpk - I still think a "collection" post is sufficient for multiple photos
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tantek
rather than a custom "gallery" type
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aaronpk
hm what is this "collection" idea?
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tantek
what is collection?
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Loqi
A collection is a type of post that lists and/or embeds multiple other posts http://indiewebcamp.com/collection
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aaronpk
oh that's actually not what I want
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aaronpk
regardless of what anyone calls it, is an h-entry with multiple u-photos sufficient?
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tantek
you sure you don't want comments on individual photos? kinda like FB allows? ;)
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aaronpk
hmmMMMMmmm
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tantek
just saying...
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aaronpk
sounds difficult to display
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tantek
FB seems to have figured it out
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aaronpk
will need to research more then
#
tantek
and people seem to like posting multiple photos in a post on FB
#
tantek
and then others seem to like commenting on individual photos inside a collection-of-photos post
#
tantek
and/or "liking" individual photos rather than the whole collection
#
tantek
while some like to "like" the whole collection
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aaronpk
well implementing it as a collection would kill two birds with one stone
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cuibonobo
i’m actually curious as to why the indieweb community has taken a stance against the proliferation of post types
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cuibonobo
if i remember correctly, tent.io has the opposite view
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tantek
cuibonobo: nature abhors complexity
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cuibonobo
curious!
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tantek
cuibonobo: whereas nerds love micro-sub-taxonomy
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tantek
which has very little to do with anything user-focused
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aaronpk
the real answer is the user-focused part
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tantek
ActivityStreams is halfway between user-focused and overdone-taxonomy
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aaronpk
what benefit is there to the user to distinguish post types?
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tantek
aaronpk, close!
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tantek
only if different posts are presented differently to the user does it make sense to create different post types for them
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cuibonobo
aaronpk: i’m not sure actually. i guess it avoids trying to shoehorn data into types that don’t feel right
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aaronpk
"don't feel right" from the user perspective?
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tantek
cuibonobo: the mistake is starting by talking about post types rather that post presentations
#
tantek
s/that/than
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: cuibonobo: the mistake is starting by talking about post types rather than post presentations
#
cuibonobo
aaronpk: no, from the creator’s perspective
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bear
a post is something someone wrote to be ready by another
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aaronpk
as the creator of a post, the last thing I want to do is figure out what post type i'm creating. I just want to create the thing.
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bear
length, format, type, media or not -- all details that don't remove the fact that it's a post to be read
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tantek
what aaronpk said. if it gets in the way of the author creating something, it's a bug.
#
tantek
thus having to think (more) about post types is undesirable
#
tantek
thus fewer post types better for the user / creator
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cuibonobo
aaronpk: sure. so when i see people fretting about whether it’s a ‘gallery’ or a ‘collection’, i say: bug
#
tantek
cuibonobo: depends on where you put the thinking / complexity
#
tantek
the more we're able to think up front and thus produce something simpler, the more it saves others times
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aaronpk
until you get to the actual implementation, at which point you need to decide things like markup and backend storage, which is more what I was talking about
#
cuibonobo
tantek: i feel like the point of max complexity is the interface between the data and the humans: the display app.
#
tantek
I have no idea why we'd bother to even talk about "max complexity"
#
bnvk
tantek: is that "max headrooms" evil nemesis?
#
aaronpk
side note: just noticed that the twitter app auto-loads photos to make it super easy to attach photos to posts
#
aaronpk
screenshot incoming
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tantek
good design takes time for the designer, but saves time for the user
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cuibonobo
tantek: you misunderstand. what i’m trying to say is the most complicated part of the system is how you figure out displaying your stuff to the user
#
tantek
per "I would have written a shorter letter, but I did not have the time." - http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Blaise_Pascal
#
post-by-email
uploaded /File:20140723-215629.jpg "Uploaded via email by Aaron Parecki <aar*@*recki.com>"
#
tantek
cuibonobo: not sure I agree that's the *most* complicated
#
tantek
but again, not sure why "most complicated part" matters to even discuss
#
tantek
cuibonobo: why would anyone be *for* a profliferation of post types?!?
#
tantek
that sounds *worse* than a proliferation of /snowflake /APIs
#
tantek
proliferation = more work, less interop etc.
#
cuibonobo
tantek: the same reason we have different file types. it’s a signifier to applications about whether or not they can actually handle this data
#
aaronpk
i have no idea when this was added to the twitter app cause I haven't actually clicked this button in probably like a year, but: https://indiewebcamp.com/File:20140723-215629.jpg
#
tantek
cuibonobo: haha and that worked out so well for the user? wrestling with different filetypes has been a nightmare over time
#
tantek
thanks for making the point
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bear
well, having a "post" flag is the filetype - it's just not been required to have another level of post type yet
#
aaronpk
the only actual issue i've encountered w.r.t. post types is the automatic addition of a post name when the author did not explicitly give a post a name
#
cuibonobo
tantek: not handling a file type is a limitation of the app. that’s the designer’s fault. pairing users with data is our job!
#
aaronpk
where a "note" is a post without a name, and an "article" is a post with a name
#
tantek
cuibonobo: nope, reducing complexity of the system for the user is our job. and reducing file types reduces complexity
#
tantek
making users deal with what apps support what file types is a huge pain that was a design mistake
#
tantek
yes about pairing users with data. don't let the app(s) get in the way of that.
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aaronpk
interestingly, we're getting back to that situation on mobile devices now
#
aaronpk
with android sharing intents and now that being added to iOS 8
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tantek
intents != files
#
aaronpk
apps can register to handle different "file types" so that they appear in menus
#
tantek
aaronpk - also a short-sighted approach
#
aaronpk
not literal file types tho, cause I believe all image types are handled the same
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cuibonobo
tantek: making the data more granular reduces complexity of the app, so we can focus on making a better experience for users
#
tantek
as proven by "share" - every app registers = unusable long menu
#
aaronpk
we're about to see that happen on iOS very soon
#
tantek
cuibonobo: I don't believe making the data more granular reduces the complexity of the app
#
tantek
silos love such granularity btw
#
tantek
it's called lock-in
#
tantek
every silo/app having their own file type
#
tantek
so you're stuck with that silo/app for the data you create there
#
tantek
cuibonobo: ergo, more granularity = worse for the user
#
cuibonobo
straw man! the data is locked up because we don’t have access to the file type
#
tantek
cuibonobo: not a strawman, but rather, status quo on desktop systems
#
tantek
granular file types = incentive for apps to make all their own (non standard) to lock-in users, and then evolve their proprietary file types so that no one else can open them without data loss
#
tantek
e.g. PPT, Keynote, etc.
#
tantek
real examples, that cause real headaches, every day. not strawman.
#
cuibonobo
open file formats can be manipulated by most apps. my hope is that well-documented data formats will do the same thing
#
tantek
if tent.io is pursuing proliferation of post types - that's so laughably wrong it will be entertaining to watch the subsequent chaos
#
tantek
cuibonobo: you'll notice those working on open file formats try to minimize the total number of such open file formats
#
tantek
and re-use existing open file formats rather than make up others
#
tantek
or rather, making up new ones (e.g. the abcML trend of the 2000s) resulted in a bunch of granular crap no one could use
#
tantek
instead, if it was rich-text-like, the answer became, always just use HTML, for maximum compat and ease of use
#
cuibonobo
of course. there’s no reason to make a format if existing ones would do.
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tantek
cuibonobo: of course there is! lock-in your users to using (paying for) your app!
#
cuibonobo
that’s an incentive for a silo…
#
tantek
right!
#
tantek
nearly all "native apps" are silos
#
cuibonobo
you’re punishing everyone for a silo mistake
#
tantek
welcome to the app dystopia that is
#
aaronpk
this conversation got weird
#
tantek
apps on desktops with file types made this mistake LONG before web silos ever existed
#
tantek
it's a well understood incentive mechanism for file format babel
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gRegor`
popcorn.gif
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cuibonobo
which were *also* silos because they didn’t publish specs for their file types
#
tantek
aaronpk, on another topic, in http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-07-23/line/1406139077 when you said "the tweet version was not showing enough context, so I rewrote the tweet as a summary " <-- it sounds like you added a "name" to your "note" and made it into a blog post without realizing it.
#
tantek
cuibonobo: why would you publish specs for your proprietary file type when you want to lock your users into using your app?
#
cuibonobo
why does microformats publish a spec? to create an ecosystem of apps that can consume the data
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tantek
cuibonobo: microformats is a community not a specific app
#
cuibonobo
boom. exactly. we are creating apps that consume the microformats data type
#
bnvk
catch y'all later ;)
#
tantek
cuibonobo: continuing with the example of microformats, we probably let *too many* microformats get developed in the 2000s
#
tantek
hence why with microformats2 we only grandfathered those early microformats that actually had multiple deployed implementations and non-trivial use on the web
#
tantek
turned out that fewer microformats was better
#
tantek
so we're back to fewer types better
#
tantek
based on experience
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#
tantek
keeps scrolling in the logs
#
cuibonobo
tantek: it makes sense that the ‘worthiness test’ (if we were to call it anything) was the number of apps that actually used the format
#
aaronpk
tantek: no that tweet text definitely was not the "name" for the note
#
aaronpk
if I had rewritten it to not mention @anomalily then maybe it could be the name
tantek joined the channel
#
tantek
aaronpk - ok - perhaps you were working your way towards writing a "name" of that post then
#
tantek
and got most of the way there
#
tantek
I think that may be a general pattern for POSSEing to Twitter - if you find just a sentence (or 2?) from your note does not make sense on its own when POSSEd, perhaps you should expand your note to a post and put the summary in the name
#
tantek
cuibonobo: yes, it's *a* good worthiness test. there are other aspects too - such as re-use, either as-is or as a building block (composability) into something else.
#
tantek
another good sign is when someone discovers a "kill 2 birds with 1 stone" difference of one approach vs. another, as aaronpk noted about "collection" over "gallery".
#
tantek
what does "combining forces" mean here specifically? https://twitter.com/jmenglund03/status/492041569373929472
#
@jmenglund03
.@audreywatters Plans are in the works for reclaim hackathon at #opened14? Love that #reclaim and #indieweb mvmts are combining forces.
(twtr.io/opVJTwP0QY)
#
tantek.com
created /users.txt (+29) "r"
(view diff)
#
tantek
what is users.txt?
#
Loqi
A nicknames cache is a way indieweb sites store information about people to improve the user experience of the site owner referring, mention, and/or linking to those people http://indiewebcamp.com/users.txt
#
tantek.com
created /nickanmes-cache (+29) "r per linked typo from IRC log"
(view diff)
scor joined the channel
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kylewm.com
edited /nicknames-cache (+60) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ add link to more info about Red Wind"
(view diff)
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kylewm.com
edited /nicknames-cache (-40) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ change wiki-links to relative URLs"
(view diff)
#
tantek
is now re-reading logs from what he typed above
#
tantek
re-reading marker reached.
#
tantek
!tell caseorganic I see markup in cleartext: [indiewebcamp.com indiewebcamp.com]! in http://caseorganic.com/articles/2014/07/19/2/indiewebcamp-2014-a-success
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell her that when I see her next
#
tantek
!tell caseorganic nice summary post about IndieWebCamp 2014!
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell her that when I see her next
#
kylewm
tantek: could you weigh in on http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-07-23#t1406136898 (why does relmeauth need a silo backlink)?
#
kylewm
sorry if you weren't there yet in log-reading
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tantek
kylewm: pretty sure I covered it before (maybe in #microformats? ) but clearly it neesd an FAQ
#
bear
@kylewm he did - but on the other channel: " the backlink requirements comes from rel-me processing in general"
#
tantek
relmeauth is composed of two building blocks, rel-me, and OAuth
#
tantek
rel-me requires bidirectional linking for confirmation of identity consolidation
#
tantek
so that's why it *started* that way
#
tantek
or rather how it *got* that way
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#
tantek
however, since then, it's become apparent that there are usability / error detection & recovery reasons for keeping such a double-opt-in mechanism for auth delegation
#
aaronpk
things like SMS and Persona don't require back-links (because it's not possible)
#
tantek
e.g. it is harder to screw up, as a user, with delegating your auth to a specific other account, if you have to do the bidirectional thing
#
tantek
aaronpk - with SMS and Persona, the "back link" is instead an out-of-band custom procedure you have to do to set those up
#
tantek
many more steps than just setting your profile link on a silo profile to your own website
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aaronpk
no the out-of-band part replaces the OAuth grant of the OAuth providers
#
aaronpk
it's not part of the setup
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tantek
no the out-of-band setup I speak of is how you have setup your Persona
#
tantek
or with TOPH, how you have to setup your TOPH device
#
aaronpk
TOTP is an exception here because it requires registration with the auth server
#
tantek
SMS is interesting in that it requires no setup - other than buying a cell phone I suppose (and all the contract etc. setup that requires)
#
aaronpk
SMS is a good example because all it takes is adding your phone number to your site
#
tantek
TOTP is not an exception. Persona requires such registration too.
#
aaronpk
in theory persona does not
#
aaronpk
in practice everyone just used the persona service that requires registration
#
tantek
I'll wait til there's an example of persona not requiring setup. Until then, it requires custom setup/reg.
#
aaronpk
but either way that was something you as a user registered for once. with TOTP you will need to register with each auth server.
#
tantek
with the rel-me back link it's something you as a user only setup once on your silo profile
#
tantek
same thing
#
aaronpk
there are 3 classes of providers going on here
#
aaronpk
SMS: no setup
#
aaronpk
OAuth providers: require adding a backlink
#
aaronpk
TOTP: requires a shared secret between you and each auth server
#
aaronpk
TOTP is kind of a weird exception here so let's not talk about it for the purposes of this discussion
#
cuibonobo
aaronpk: why is it that when i log in via indieauth, i always get the “Authorize IndieAuth to use your account?” screen at the silo? the IndieAuth app already appears on my list of approved applications.
#
aaronpk
cuibonobo: it depends on the silo
#
aaronpk
you don't see that every time on github
#
tantek
SMS requires getting a cell phone - that's A LOT of setup
#
aaronpk
(or a google voice number or twilio account)
#
tantek
e.g. go to a new country - let's see how easy it is for you to "setup" SMS IndieAuth
#
cuibonobo
aaronpk: aha. you’re right. github went through as expected
#
aaronpk
cuibonobo: I believe it's using twitter's "authorize" method right now instead of "authenticate", authenticate doesn't show the prompt the second time https://dev.twitter.com/docs/api/1/get/oauth/authenticate
#
aaronpk
I should probably switch that
#
Loqi
I agree
#
tantek.com
edited /2014 (+147) "/* Blog */ add caseorganic blog post"
(view diff)
#
aaronpk
hm it should actually be doing authenticate by default according to the omniauth plugin https://github.com/arunagw/omniauth-twitter#authentication-options
#
aaronpk
filing a bug...
#
cuibonobo
huzzah! we found a bug!
#
tantek.com
created /Template:caseorganic (+122) "for convenience"
(view diff)
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aaronpk
tantek: I'm talking about setup *after* the account exists. Like you don't consider "get a Github account" part of IndieAuth setup
#
tantek.com
edited /2014 (+7) "/* Blog */ /cite"
(view diff)
#
aaronpk
so assuming you already have an SMS account, Github account, Twitter account, etc, what are the steps required to make it work with IndieAuth
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tantek
interesting
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tantek
aaronpk - what do you think of showing an *error* if someone's rel=me twitter etc. actually links to a *different* website
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aaronpk
like, preventing it from working, or just showing a message?
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aaronpk
hm, so it would only work if either a) your twitter account links to your website or b) your twitter account does not link to any website
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tantek
like, hey, you're site user.example.com is claiming to be twitter acount @example which is already connected to a different site!
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tantek
s/you're/your
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: like, hey, your site user.example.com is claiming to be twitter acount @example which is already connected to a different site!
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tantek
so we at least can catch those errors
wolftune, basal, KartikPrabhu, addal and snarfed joined the channel
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snarfed
hey aaronpk, welcome back!
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aaronpk
thanks snarfed!
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snarfed
just fyi, looks like webmention.io 500s on target pages with emoji :/
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aaronpk
oh dear
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snarfed
low priority, obviously
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aaronpk
unicode isn't enough anymore
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snarfed
"128 chars should be enough for anyone"
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aaronpk
oh hey that's a mysql error, I know how to do that
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gRegor`
We need unicode 2.0. With shiny, rounded corners.
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aaronpk
utf8mb4
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KartikPrabhu
yeah that one ^
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aaronpk
snarfed: can you re-proces that?
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aaronpk
if not I can just do it manually
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snarfed
aaronpk: click the retry button when you're ready: https://www.brid.gy/twitter/t
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snarfed
self serve :P
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aaronpk
that's weird, it didn't fix it
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aaronpk
that's usually how I fix that error
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snarfed
interesting, for that one, looks like actually both the source and target pages have emoji
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aaronpk
will have to come back to it later. thought it would be an easy fix. https://github.com/aaronpk/webmention.io/issues/20
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kylewm
snarfed: looks like https://github.com/jasonkgreen joined GH just to discuss a Bridgy issue, that's awesome!
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snarfed
kylewm: i know! he's been a pretty heavy bridgy publish user
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tantek
cool!