# 00:04 tantek gRegor`: I appreciate you taking the time to summarize my rants in a more productive fashion :)
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# 00:05 gRegor` Helps me remember for when I'm working on stuff. :)
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# 00:12 kylewm crossdiver: ike.io is empty! switching off jekyll?
# 00:12 crossdiver kylewm -- yeah, hopefully. I think I'm switching to Bumble on DigitalOcean. Jekyll is a paaaaaiiiiiiinn
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# 00:14 kylewm augh, tantek I can never tell if you are asking Loqi
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# 00:17 kylewm put enough blogging engines in a github, and two are very likely to have the same name
# 00:17 tantek cool! another Node engine coming along. mko is working on a Node solution too.
# 00:18 crossdiver kewl. we're using Bumble for the &yet blog, and most of our personal ones too.
# 00:19 tantek he's supposedly going to deploy and launch by this Friday
# 00:20 tantek normally I'm skeptical about such claims, however, in this case I both know him, and have watched him ask all the right detailed in-depth questions that indicate that he's making incredibly rapid progress.
# 00:20 tantek and he said we could give him a hard time if he doesn't ship by Friday
# 00:22 crossdiver personally, I'm a huge node fan -- so I'm really excited about seeing more node momentum in the indieweb community
# 00:24 tantek personally I'm really excited about seeing different backend approaches to indieweb solutions
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# 01:11 snarfed tantek: re mediawiki kbd shortcuts…if you're on firefox, try searching for the link w/keyboard, then press enter. e.g. for the Page link, press ', P, A, enter
# 01:12 snarfed (you may have to enable some search-by-link setting. i've been doing this for decades, and kept my ff config, so i've long forgotten :P)
# 01:12 snarfed i click on most links in web pages w/keyboard, not w/mouse (thank god)
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# 02:00 androte79 is there a microformats feed reader?
# 02:02 KartikPrabhu androte79: not a full-functional one afaik... barnabywalters is working on one though and so are others
# 02:04 androte79 all the feeds in my reader are indie websites
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# 04:46 snarfed kylewm: the poll frequency is configurable per silo, so we can make flickr 1h if we need to
# 04:46 snarfed at least, if it's 1 per hr per user, as opposed to per api key
# 04:47 kylewm definitely pretty sure it's per user and not API key
# 04:53 kylewm snarfed: i guess the rate limit just makes my spidey sense tingly...like they don't want us to use that method for some unstated reason
# 04:54 kylewm given that no one who POSSEs to Flickr has asked about it yet, I'm inclined to backburner :)
# 04:54 snarfed in practice, silos generally only notice apps when they go above a certain total qps threshold, and bridgy's nowhere near that, so i wouldn't worry too much
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# 05:25 kylewm snarfed: heh, just wanted to see what the error looked like
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# 07:51 cweiske tantek, regarding your question: I still cannot login with my own indieauth server into indiewebcamp.com
# 07:53 cweiske and I only was able to implement my own indieauth server because I digged into the depths of indieauth.com code and asking questions here
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# 10:29 Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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# 15:42 androte38 !tell benwerd @names link to a profile page 404 on werd.Io
# 15:42 Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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# 16:21 aaron_pk brace yourselves
# 16:21 aaron_pk the !tells are coming
# 16:21 Loqi aaronpk: mko left you a message on 7/16 at 4:07pm: When you've got a few minutes to chat, I'd love to understand better how to enable authentication for micropub. I didn't actually realize IndieAuth provided a bearer/access token.
# 16:21 Loqi aaronpk: bret left you a message on 7/18 at 10:53am: I have been reading your site and caseorganic's site for the last few months in a feed reader comparing your atom feed to the hfeed that Barnaby built
# 16:21 Loqi aaronpk: bret left you a message on 7/18 at 10:55am: the h feed is consistently more interesting and useful as it contains the actual photos of the post and gives a better feed with better summaries
# 16:22 Loqi aaronpk: tantek left you a message on 7/18 at 11:45am: this is a freebie. welcome back. and take your time with all the tells. people are patient. it's all good. :)
# 16:22 Loqi aaronpk: mko left you a message on 7/19 at 5:15pm: Not sure if this was intentional, but a GET on your webmention endpoint no longer displays the informational page you had there before: http://aaronparecki.com/webmention
# 16:22 Loqi aaronpk: bnvk left you a message 3 days, 2 hours ago: see that last webmention of mine? Does Loqi interpret #IndieWeb tag as a link to IWC.com ?
# 16:22 Loqi aaronpk: gRegor` left you a message on 7/21 at 11:04am: #indiewebcamp main channel misses you. ;)
# 16:22 gRegor` !tell aaronpk Welcome back!
# 16:22 Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
# 16:23 gRegor` That wasn't so bad
# 16:23 gRegor` !tellmention protocol
# 16:25 Loqi aaronpk: gRegor` left you a message 2 minutes ago: Welcome back!
# 16:25 Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
# 16:25 aaronpk !tell bret that's interesting, does that mean I should a) drop my atom feed completely or b) continue maintaining a specific rendering of my content as an atom feed?
# 16:26 Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
# 16:27 Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
# 16:27 aaronpk hunts for the "last webmention of mine" from bnvk
# 16:28 aaronpk wonders if the !tells should also include a link to the line in the logs of the original tell for context?
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# 16:29 aaronpk !tell bnvk no, it looks like your footer links to indiewebcamp.com and you sent a webmention for that link
# 16:29 Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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# 16:31 kylewm aaronpk: there was also a RelMeAuth question that no one else answered (afaik) ... why do the silos need to have a link back to your domain?
# 16:32 aaronpk basically I need to update it to be private posts that require an access token to view
# 16:33 aaronpk kylewm: hm I should probably search the logs for mentions of me or indieauth now
# 16:34 bear I would love an updated page about that - i've got most of indieweb access tokens working (I think) but I need to do a self-review to make sure it flows properly
# 16:34 kylewm heh, this was hmans asking about having both hmans.io and hmans.de
# 16:37 Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
# 16:38 aaronpk !tell cweiske and correct, there really is no "scope" in OAuth 1. That was something Twitter bolted on top at the application level rather than request level
# 16:38 Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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# 17:06 aaronpk stickers are a great idea for my specific post types
# 17:09 aaronpk so that sounds basically exactly like IndieAuth (which is based on OAuth 2)
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# 17:24 aaronpk JonathanNeal: right now, ownyourgram.com requests the "post" scope when you authorize it for your site
# 17:24 aaronpk because it expects to be able to create new posts
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# 17:26 JonathanNeal yes, so that’s the scope requested on demand, and I am talking about predefining some approved scopes (like the img you referenced)
# 17:26 JonathanNeal aaronpk: is there a github project for setting this up on your own server?
# 17:27 aaronpk pre-defining scopes would be something your authorization server would do if no scope parameter is present
# 17:27 aaronpk JonathanNeal: I don't have an authorization server other than indieauth.com up on github yet
# 17:27 aaronpk I'm in the middle of building a separate authorization server for p3k, which maybe I should write as its own project
# 17:28 JonathanNeal Oh, and I’m looking for a file I just drop into my server. If it’s PHP, I just do something like require_once and plug in the auth where I need it.
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# 17:28 aaronpk huh, i'm not quite sure what you're looking for then. it's a little more complicated than tyat
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# 17:34 snarfed kylewm aaronpk: i also couldn't figure out why relmeauth needed the silo rel-me link back to your site
# 17:35 snarfed i can understand for other offline rel-me uses (spidering, building a graph, etc), to prove that you own both the site and the silo acct
# 17:35 snarfed ...but for relmeauth, you prove that you own the silo acct by authing with it, which seems like enough
# 17:35 aaronpk actually I had the same question when I was in the depths of the indieauth code a couple weeks ago
# 17:35 aaronpk I was hoping tantek would be around to clarify the original reasoning behind it
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# 17:57 aaronpk galleries are geting up there in my "itching" list
# 17:59 aaronpk but yeah just a short post with a bunch of photos
# 18:00 aaronpk point is I can only attach one photo to a note right now
# 18:01 gRegor` KartikPrabhu: I almost said "you mean 'note with—OUCH!"
# 18:02 aaronpk that may be a personal distinction that nobody else shares, but that's ok :)
# 18:03 KartikPrabhu sure... these are fuzzy distinctions anyway. As long as you actually post photos I don't really care whether you call it a note or article or gallery :P
# 18:03 aaronpk ultimately it will still be published as an h-entry with many p-photo properties. the distinction is mostly internal to my code base
# 18:06 gRegor` np, just clarifying
# 18:07 gRegor` I, uh, kinda started the big discussion of differences between "photo" and "note with photo" :)
# 18:07 gRegor` I (kinda) understand it better now.
# 18:07 KartikPrabhu the current definition of u-photo seems to be not for this purpose though.
# 18:07 KartikPrabhu u-photo - a representative photo or image for the entry, e.g. primary photo for an article or subject-cropped photo, suitable for use in a link-preview (example)
# 18:08 KartikPrabhu that is why I have been picking one photo from a gallery as the u-photo for the article, which also shows up in my feed-preview
# 18:09 aaronpk my guess is any current feed readers would just use the first photo in the array
# 18:09 KartikPrabhu aaronpk: yes... i think that is how it would work.... but then the defintion should be updated.
# 18:13 aaronpk KartikPrabhu: the only problem is the content that went to twitter isn't anywhere on my site
# 18:14 aaronpk I have just been informed that my website is blocked by the City of Portland network
# 18:16 mko aaronpk: Thanks and I got it by apparently forgetting to type the .php
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# 18:30 tommorris and h-entry's category property does the same thing without the HTML5 scoping rules headaches
# 18:31 tommorris (or rather the headaches caused by lack of any scoping rules. the other alternative is we use RDFa's scoping rules, but that's kind of antithetical to most of the design of microformats.)
# 18:38 gRegor` Mailpile's icon, that is
# 18:40 gRegor` I was just curious if it was something automatic or manual
# 18:41 gRegor` Oh, it's in your addressbook.
# 18:42 kylewm gRegor`: guessing the connection was interrupted while I was mirroring the icon...
# 18:42 gRegor` Hm? The icon looks fine
# 18:43 gRegor` Was just wondering how you got it. But I detective'd it out.
# 18:44 kylewm I did manually specify it when I put them in my address book
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# 19:35 Loqi cweiske: aaronpk left you a message 2 hours, 58 minutes ago: I apologise for the current state of the indieauth docs, but I figure it would be better to develop in the public wiki rather than hiding out for 2 months and emerging with an IndieAuth Stone Tablet ( re: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-07-22#t1406064130 )
# 19:35 Loqi cweiske: aaronpk left you a message 2 hours, 56 minutes ago: and correct, there really is no "scope" in OAuth 1. That was something Twitter bolted on top at the application level rather than request level
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# 19:53 Loqi bnvk: aaronpk left you a message 3 hours, 24 minutes ago: no, it looks like your footer links to indiewebcamp.com and you sent a webmention for that link
# 19:54 bnvk Loqi: shoot, I wish I knew what aaronpk: was answering with that response :P
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# 19:55 kylewm aaronpk: love your idea about adding a log URL to the end of the tell
# 19:59 bnvk oh whoa, so sending mention sends a request to every url that's contained with a what- "p-note" ?
# 20:00 aaronpk most people only send webmentions to links contained within the h-entry
# 20:00 bnvk hehe, I mean I'm using the webmention lib that I think Barnaby wrote
# 20:00 aaronpk although technically your entire page includes links to all sorts of stuff like in the footer
# 20:00 aaronpk it's more up to the receiving end to decide what to do with the mention, like if there's no link in the h-entry then it could just ignore it
# 20:00 bnvk which is why i'm confused, as I only sent a webmention to the URL of a given post
# 20:01 bnvk oh, so my current flow (cause my client doesn't do automagically) is create new post / reply
# 20:02 bnvk everytime it says "Sent 7 webmentions" which has confused me
# 20:02 aaronpk ok so you mean you're sending webmentions *from* your URL, not *to* your URL
# 20:03 aaronpk so my guess is that library is looking at all links on the page, not just links within the h-entry
# 20:03 bnvk I've also done it manually from the $client->sendSupportedMentions()
# 20:04 aaronpk It's not particularly useful to send webmentions to links that aren't in an h-entry, so I wonder if we should be updating the mention clients to only look for links inside an h-entry
# 20:07 aaronpk which links should receive webmentions? "URLs linked to in the content, including URLs of people mentioned"
# 20:07 aaronpk I would argue that should be phrased the other way around, like "which links should I send webmentions to"
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# 20:11 gRegor` bnvk: I can confirm, when I have sent wm from indiewebify.me it catches all links on the page.
# 20:12 gRegor` I always get one back to my "all notes" page at the botom, heh.
# 20:12 KevinMarks aha, just found i can log into tyepad with indieauth by putting it as the openid link on a blogger site
# 20:13 gRegor` I wonder if that's not acceptable behavior, though, for indiewebify.me at least.
# 20:13 aaronpk gRegor`: yeah I think the libraries should only send mentions for links inside the h-entry
# 20:13 aaronpk good question... i've been playing catchup all week so I don't know what's new
# 20:14 gRegor` My plugin sends to any links in the content I pass it. I just happen to only pass it the note/article content vs. the entire page
# 20:14 bnvk also, performance, it always takes really long to complete the webmention, because 7 requests :P
# 20:15 aaronpk regarding bridgy mentions here... that last one should have actually said "@tantek favorited a post that mentioned indiewebcamp.com"
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# 20:19 kylewm I think bridgy would've sent it as a "u-mention" instead of "u-like-of" if it'd found a better candidate for the original post on ShaneHudson.net
# 20:20 aaronpk I was just talking about interpreting the contents of that html as a sentence
# 20:22 bnvk kylewm: is RedWind you're python IW client?
# 20:28 gRegor` aaronpk: Interesting my @name in your reply is to my twitter name. Nickname cache?
# 20:29 aaronpk added you to my users.txt so now it links to your site instead of twitter
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# 20:30 aaronpk I don't like the look of @-names that are full domains
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# 20:33 gRegor` s/nickan/nickna/
# 20:34 bnvk aaronpk: if I add my name to your wiki local names will it be automagically added to the one on your site? >:]
# 20:35 bnvk that's basically like "groups" on Facebook or what have you :)
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# 21:14 bear I always envisioned that would be something discoverable on my site
# 21:16 aaronpk well most people here already link to silo profiles with rel=me, so all that's missing is specifying a nickname in their primary h-card
# 21:16 rascul new owncloud release with some potentially nifty features for those who are using it
# 21:17 aaronpk but i'm also interested in the "local" aspect, where I may have a nickname for someone that they don't necessarily use themselves
# 21:18 bear ah, I try to avoid that type of namespace collision - keeping peoples names tracked is hard enough for me
# 21:18 bear well, I am used to mapping everyone to their irc (and now twitter) handles
# 21:18 bnvk gets a sick sort of glee knocking Facebook every chance I get
# 21:20 aaronpk huh, I never considered how that sounds in my head
# 21:20 bear it's like when you meet someone IRL the first time and realize you have their name all kinds of mangled
# 21:20 bnvk out of curiosity rascul and bear, you know my real name right?
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# 21:23 bnvk OMG, Evernote is so obnoxious, their Chrome extension started hijacking the ` char
# 21:24 bnvk also, I really want to jack the @name idea into email!!!
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# 21:24 johncash !tell benwerd your site looks down
# 21:24 Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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# 21:29 johncash sets mode -o ChanServ
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# 21:34 gRegor` Give back my `, Evernote
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# 21:43 bear removes the "op" status from the chanserv user
# 21:45 tantek let's see how well following up in order works
# 21:46 tantek aaronpk - I still think a "collection" post is sufficient for multiple photos
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# 21:47 aaronpk regardless of what anyone calls it, is an h-entry with multiple u-photos sufficient?
# 21:47 tantek you sure you don't want comments on individual photos? kinda like FB allows? ;)
# 21:48 tantek and people seem to like posting multiple photos in a post on FB
# 21:48 tantek and then others seem to like commenting on individual photos inside a collection-of-photos post
# 21:48 tantek and/or "liking" individual photos rather than the whole collection
# 21:48 tantek while some like to "like" the whole collection
# 21:48 aaronpk well implementing it as a collection would kill two birds with one stone
# 21:48 cuibonobo i’m actually curious as to why the indieweb community has taken a stance against the proliferation of post types
# 21:49 tantek cuibonobo: whereas nerds love micro-sub-taxonomy
# 21:49 tantek which has very little to do with anything user-focused
# 21:50 tantek ActivityStreams is halfway between user-focused and overdone-taxonomy
# 21:50 aaronpk what benefit is there to the user to distinguish post types?
# 21:50 tantek only if different posts are presented differently to the user does it make sense to create different post types for them
# 21:50 cuibonobo aaronpk: i’m not sure actually. i guess it avoids trying to shoehorn data into types that don’t feel right
# 21:51 tantek cuibonobo: the mistake is starting by talking about post types rather that post presentations
# 21:51 Loqi tantek meant to say: cuibonobo: the mistake is starting by talking about post types rather than post presentations
# 21:51 bear a post is something someone wrote to be ready by another
# 21:52 aaronpk as the creator of a post, the last thing I want to do is figure out what post type i'm creating. I just want to create the thing.
# 21:52 bear length, format, type, media or not -- all details that don't remove the fact that it's a post to be read
# 21:52 tantek what aaronpk said. if it gets in the way of the author creating something, it's a bug.
# 21:52 tantek thus having to think (more) about post types is undesirable
# 21:52 tantek thus fewer post types better for the user / creator
# 21:52 cuibonobo aaronpk: sure. so when i see people fretting about whether it’s a ‘gallery’ or a ‘collection’, i say: bug
# 21:53 tantek cuibonobo: depends on where you put the thinking / complexity
# 21:53 tantek the more we're able to think up front and thus produce something simpler, the more it saves others times
# 21:53 aaronpk until you get to the actual implementation, at which point you need to decide things like markup and backend storage, which is more what I was talking about
# 21:54 cuibonobo tantek: i feel like the point of max complexity is the interface between the data and the humans: the display app.
# 21:54 tantek I have no idea why we'd bother to even talk about "max complexity"
# 21:55 bnvk tantek: is that "max headrooms" evil nemesis?
# 21:55 aaronpk side note: just noticed that the twitter app auto-loads photos to make it super easy to attach photos to posts
# 21:55 tantek good design takes time for the designer, but saves time for the user
# 21:55 cuibonobo tantek: you misunderstand. what i’m trying to say is the most complicated part of the system is how you figure out displaying your stuff to the user
# 21:56 tantek cuibonobo: not sure I agree that's the *most* complicated
# 21:56 tantek but again, not sure why "most complicated part" matters to even discuss
# 21:57 tantek cuibonobo: why would anyone be *for* a profliferation of post types?!?
# 21:57 cuibonobo tantek: the same reason we have different file types. it’s a signifier to applications about whether or not they can actually handle this data
# 21:58 tantek cuibonobo: haha and that worked out so well for the user? wrestling with different filetypes has been a nightmare over time
# 21:59 bear well, having a "post" flag is the filetype - it's just not been required to have another level of post type yet
# 22:00 aaronpk the only actual issue i've encountered w.r.t. post types is the automatic addition of a post name when the author did not explicitly give a post a name
# 22:00 cuibonobo tantek: not handling a file type is a limitation of the app. that’s the designer’s fault. pairing users with data is our job!
# 22:01 aaronpk where a "note" is a post without a name, and an "article" is a post with a name
# 22:01 tantek cuibonobo: nope, reducing complexity of the system for the user is our job. and reducing file types reduces complexity
# 22:01 tantek making users deal with what apps support what file types is a huge pain that was a design mistake
# 22:01 tantek yes about pairing users with data. don't let the app(s) get in the way of that.
# 22:02 aaronpk interestingly, we're getting back to that situation on mobile devices now
# 22:02 aaronpk with android sharing intents and now that being added to iOS 8
# 22:02 aaronpk apps can register to handle different "file types" so that they appear in menus
# 22:02 aaronpk not literal file types tho, cause I believe all image types are handled the same
# 22:03 cuibonobo tantek: making the data more granular reduces complexity of the app, so we can focus on making a better experience for users
# 22:03 tantek as proven by "share" - every app registers = unusable long menu
# 22:03 tantek cuibonobo: I don't believe making the data more granular reduces the complexity of the app
# 22:03 tantek so you're stuck with that silo/app for the data you create there
# 22:04 tantek cuibonobo: ergo, more granularity = worse for the user
# 22:05 cuibonobo straw man! the data is locked up because we don’t have access to the file type
# 22:05 tantek cuibonobo: not a strawman, but rather, status quo on desktop systems
# 22:06 tantek granular file types = incentive for apps to make all their own (non standard) to lock-in users, and then evolve their proprietary file types so that no one else can open them without data loss
# 22:07 tantek real examples, that cause real headaches, every day. not strawman.
# 22:07 cuibonobo open file formats can be manipulated by most apps. my hope is that well-documented data formats will do the same thing
# 22:07 tantek if tent.io is pursuing proliferation of post types - that's so laughably wrong it will be entertaining to watch the subsequent chaos
# 22:08 tantek cuibonobo: you'll notice those working on open file formats try to minimize the total number of such open file formats
# 22:08 tantek and re-use existing open file formats rather than make up others
# 22:08 tantek or rather, making up new ones (e.g. the abcML trend of the 2000s) resulted in a bunch of granular crap no one could use
# 22:08 tantek instead, if it was rich-text-like, the answer became, always just use HTML, for maximum compat and ease of use
# 22:09 cuibonobo of course. there’s no reason to make a format if existing ones would do.
# 22:09 tantek cuibonobo: of course there is! lock-in your users to using (paying for) your app!
# 22:10 tantek apps on desktops with file types made this mistake LONG before web silos ever existed
# 22:10 tantek it's a well understood incentive mechanism for file format babel
# 22:11 cuibonobo which were *also* silos because they didn’t publish specs for their file types
# 22:12 tantek cuibonobo: why would you publish specs for your proprietary file type when you want to lock your users into using your app?
# 22:12 cuibonobo why does microformats publish a spec? to create an ecosystem of apps that can consume the data
# 22:13 tantek cuibonobo: microformats is a community not a specific app
# 22:13 cuibonobo boom. exactly. we are creating apps that consume the microformats data type
# 22:14 tantek cuibonobo: continuing with the example of microformats, we probably let *too many* microformats get developed in the 2000s
# 22:14 tantek hence why with microformats2 we only grandfathered those early microformats that actually had multiple deployed implementations and non-trivial use on the web
# 22:14 tantek turned out that fewer microformats was better
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# 22:18 cuibonobo tantek: it makes sense that the ‘worthiness test’ (if we were to call it anything) was the number of apps that actually used the format
# 22:21 aaronpk tantek: no that tweet text definitely was not the "name" for the note
# 22:22 aaronpk if I had rewritten it to not mention @anomalily then maybe it could be the name
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# 22:27 tantek aaronpk - ok - perhaps you were working your way towards writing a "name" of that post then
# 22:28 tantek I think that may be a general pattern for POSSEing to Twitter - if you find just a sentence (or 2?) from your note does not make sense on its own when POSSEd, perhaps you should expand your note to a post and put the summary in the name
# 22:29 tantek cuibonobo: yes, it's *a* good worthiness test. there are other aspects too - such as re-use, either as-is or as a building block (composability) into something else.
# 22:29 tantek another good sign is when someone discovers a "kill 2 birds with 1 stone" difference of one approach vs. another, as aaronpk noted about "collection" over "gallery".
# 22:30 Loqi A nicknames cache is a way indieweb sites store information about people to improve the user experience of the site owner referring, mention, and/or linking to those people http://indiewebcamp.com/users.txt
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# 22:33 tantek is now re-reading logs from what he typed above
# 22:36 Loqi Ok, I'll tell her that when I see her next
# 22:37 tantek !tell caseorganic nice summary post about IndieWebCamp 2014!
# 22:37 Loqi Ok, I'll tell her that when I see her next
# 22:37 kylewm sorry if you weren't there yet in log-reading
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# 22:39 tantek kylewm: pretty sure I covered it before (maybe in #microformats? ) but clearly it neesd an FAQ
# 22:40 bear @kylewm he did - but on the other channel: " the backlink requirements comes from rel-me processing in general"
# 22:40 tantek relmeauth is composed of two building blocks, rel-me, and OAuth
# 22:40 tantek rel-me requires bidirectional linking for confirmation of identity consolidation
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# 22:41 tantek however, since then, it's become apparent that there are usability / error detection & recovery reasons for keeping such a double-opt-in mechanism for auth delegation
# 22:41 aaronpk things like SMS and Persona don't require back-links (because it's not possible)
# 22:42 tantek e.g. it is harder to screw up, as a user, with delegating your auth to a specific other account, if you have to do the bidirectional thing
# 22:42 tantek aaronpk - with SMS and Persona, the "back link" is instead an out-of-band custom procedure you have to do to set those up
# 22:43 tantek many more steps than just setting your profile link on a silo profile to your own website
# 22:43 aaronpk no the out-of-band part replaces the OAuth grant of the OAuth providers
# 22:43 tantek no the out-of-band setup I speak of is how you have setup your Persona
# 22:43 tantek or with TOPH, how you have to setup your TOPH device
# 22:44 aaronpk TOTP is an exception here because it requires registration with the auth server
# 22:44 tantek SMS is interesting in that it requires no setup - other than buying a cell phone I suppose (and all the contract etc. setup that requires)
# 22:44 aaronpk SMS is a good example because all it takes is adding your phone number to your site
# 22:44 tantek TOTP is not an exception. Persona requires such registration too.
# 22:44 aaronpk in practice everyone just used the persona service that requires registration
# 22:45 tantek I'll wait til there's an example of persona not requiring setup. Until then, it requires custom setup/reg.
# 22:45 aaronpk but either way that was something you as a user registered for once. with TOTP you will need to register with each auth server.
# 22:45 tantek with the rel-me back link it's something you as a user only setup once on your silo profile
# 22:46 aaronpk TOTP: requires a shared secret between you and each auth server
# 22:46 aaronpk TOTP is kind of a weird exception here so let's not talk about it for the purposes of this discussion
# 22:47 cuibonobo aaronpk: why is it that when i log in via indieauth, i always get the “Authorize IndieAuth to use your account?” screen at the silo? the IndieAuth app already appears on my list of approved applications.
# 22:49 tantek SMS requires getting a cell phone - that's A LOT of setup
# 22:49 tantek e.g. go to a new country - let's see how easy it is for you to "setup" SMS IndieAuth
# 22:49 cuibonobo aaronpk: aha. you’re right. github went through as expected
# 22:52 aaronpk tantek: I'm talking about setup *after* the account exists. Like you don't consider "get a Github account" part of IndieAuth setup
# 22:53 aaronpk so assuming you already have an SMS account, Github account, Twitter account, etc, what are the steps required to make it work with IndieAuth
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# 23:03 tantek aaronpk - what do you think of showing an *error* if someone's rel=me twitter etc. actually links to a *different* website
# 23:03 aaronpk like, preventing it from working, or just showing a message?
# 23:04 aaronpk hm, so it would only work if either a) your twitter account links to your website or b) your twitter account does not link to any website
# 23:05 tantek like, hey, you're site user.example.com is claiming to be twitter acount @example which is already connected to a different site!
# 23:05 Loqi tantek meant to say: like, hey, your site user.example.com is claiming to be twitter acount @example which is already connected to a different site!
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# 23:26 snarfed just fyi, looks like webmention.io 500s on target pages with emoji :/
# 23:27 aaronpk oh hey that's a mysql error, I know how to do that
# 23:27 gRegor` We need unicode 2.0. With shiny, rounded corners.
# 23:31 snarfed interesting, for that one, looks like actually both the source and target pages have emoji
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# 23:56 snarfed kylewm: i know! he's been a pretty heavy bridgy publish user