#indiewebcamp 2014-07-24

2014-07-24 UTC
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kylewm so to the rel-me question, my understanding is that the backlink is an extra sanity check to prevent me from putting the wrong rel-me url on my homepage?
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snarfed kind of
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snarfed kylewm: sounds like it was more important for non-interactive-
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tantek yes and yes
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tantek also makes it one step harder for an attacker
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snarfed defenseinlayers++
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Loqi defenseinlayers has 1 karma
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tantek which I feel like is a goodidea(™) for anything identity related
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kylewm to me feels like a feel-good layer that doesn't add any actual protection...
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tantek I mean, it may only "slow them down", but in practice, slowing down an attack is *exceptionally* useful
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kylewm if they have control of my site and can change my rel=me to point to their twitter account
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kylewm then changing their twitter profile to point to my site is trivial
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tantek in many attack scenarios, you learn something is going wrong, and if you have a wider window of time to react and defend / counterattack, then you can defeat an attacker
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tantek kylewm: you're making the typical dev error of assuming "trivial" in terms of number of steps is trivial in terms of time and thus how it effects anything in progress
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kylewm but it is trivial in time
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kylewm it takes 2 seconds...
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tantek longer
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tantek especially if it doesn't "just work" when they try only one step
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kylewm it *would* prevent someone from taking over a bunch of sites and pointing them all to one twitter acct
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tantek you're also underestimating how "dumb" attackers can be
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tantek and how "clumsy" they can be
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tantek in practice, every little step like that makes a difference
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tantek true!
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kylewm ok like, OAuth1 has a ton of random complexity in it, sign this with that using this nonce
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kylewm and OAuth2 just got rid of all that right?
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kylewm this feels like that to me
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tantek security in practice tends to be more about discouragement and barriers / slowing down than actual outright foolproof prevention
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kylewm but I accept the explanation, it makes sense
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tantek except this isn't random - it's an independent building block that's useful outside of relmeauth
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tantek so the analogy to oauth is false
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kylewm "useful outside of relmeauth" -- definitely
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tantek whereas that "random complexity" in Oauth1 was all madeup stuff just for oauth1
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tantek one can also build a relme library without any auth
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aaronpk well, not entirely made up, it was based on what a few providers were doing at the time (Flickr, etc)
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johncash aaronpk: oauth is completely made up
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johncash :)
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tantek johncash - I too recall OAuth following a lot of the design from Flickr's Auth methods
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aaronpk so more like Flickr made stuff up for Flickr, Google made stuff up for Google, then it was all merged together
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johncash I was talking tongue-in-cheek
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tantek aaronpk - any news about PDX HWC 2014-07-30?
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tantek venue in particular
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johncash tantek++
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Loqi tantek has 54 karma
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aaronpk esripdx is ok for venue!
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kylewm (tantek thanks for talking that through with me)
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johncash Yay right next door to me
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aaronpk I have been meaning to write up a little thing for the pdx dev week site
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tantek aaronpk, could you edit http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-07-30-homebrew-website-club#Where ? :)
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tantek and perhaps post an Indie Event and POSSE copy ? http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-07-30-homebrew-website-club#URLs
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tantek has to beg for indie events since he can't yet post his own. :?
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aaronparecki.com edited /events/2014-07-30-homebrew-website-club (-13) "/* Where */ at EsriPDX!" (view diff)
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johncash I RSVPed to the wiki page
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johncash but it doesn't show webmentions
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johncash heh
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aaronpk takes sooo long for me to post an event to my site :( really need to fix that
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johncash switch to known? ;)
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aaronpk ha
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aaronpk you know, if Known had started using MySQL instead of MongoDB I probably would have been a major contributor to it and used it on my site long long ago
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johncash yeah the mongo part is perplexing
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pdurbin what's wrong with mongo?
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johncash you heard of newSql?
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aaronpk so many things
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tantek johncash webmentions to indiewebcamp.com URLs show up here
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johncash the newest trend is to learn from the mistakes of oldSql
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tantek so apparently you didn't ;)
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pdurbin any mysql is perfect? ;) http://grimoire.ca/mysql/choose-something-else
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tantek aaronpk - oh no - I like watching all the advances in p3k!
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tantek besides, p3k does *a bunch* of stuff Known doesn't
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tantek e.g. much nicer reply-context
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pdurbin s/any/and/
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Loqi pdurbin meant to say: and mysql is perfect? ;) http://grimoire.ca/mysql/choose-something-else
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aaronpk oh I never said mysql was perfect
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tantek p3k++
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Loqi p3k has 1 karma
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tantek aww
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pdurbin mongo is web scale ;)
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aaronpk we are so not having this conversation
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pdurbin oh cool, there's a transcript: http://www.mongodb-is-web-scale.com
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tantek wow that's hilarious pdurbin
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Loqi [mention] http://home.tylergillies.club/2014/is-this-better-tantek linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-07-30-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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tantek lolololol
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pdurbin yeah
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pdurbin in all seriousness, we use postgres at work but some are suggesting mongo. I dunno, I haven't tried it yet. I'm happy enough with postgres.
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johncash We use mongo in production
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johncash don't do it
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johncash :)
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pdurbin lolz
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johncash postgres is probably the best general database
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tantek gets some trail mix (instead of popcorn)
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KartikPrabhu see /database-antipattern
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johncash What if your database is an html document store?
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KartikPrabhu then it would be a file-storage
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johncash technically all databases are file storage
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johncash even redis writes to disk
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KartikPrabhu eh... sure
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johncash "When displaying the most recent N posts, Falcon looks for YYYY/B.html"
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johncash I kinda like that paradigm
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snarfed johncash: file and disk aren't always the same
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snarfed many dbs bypass the filesystem and just use disks as block devices
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johncash This is why we don't talk about mongo
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kylewm !someoneiswrongontheinternet
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snarfed kylewm++
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tantek xkcd.com/386
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Loqi kylewm has 33 karma
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kylewm that was Loqi fast, tantek
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Loqi dude
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tantek :D
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johncash I know I was gonna paste but he beat me
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johncash tantek: what is the point of bimonths? I get what they are conceptually, but not how they are useful
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tantek math
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johncash if a month is just half a bimonth isn't it essentially the same sort of deal? I'm not getting why dealing with chunks of 60 is better than dealing with chunks of 30
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tantek 6 chunks is easier for humans than 12 chunks
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johncash for indieweb storage it kinda makes sense because you get more data for a given file
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tantek and that's why I chose it for that
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tantek also avoiding the cognitive dissonance of having things named like Gregorian month numbers (01.html … 12.html) but having them be new months instead
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tantek also new months don't take new sundays into account whereas bims do
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johncash ah thats the part i was missing the new sundays are bound to the bim unit
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KartikPrabhu also a day in a bimonth is one char in base60 ;)
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tantek KartikPrabhu: I don't think I've actually made use of that - and that's only almost true, since a bim has 61 days
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tantek you'd need to use newbase64
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KartikPrabhu yeah
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tantek has too many things he wants to build. ;(
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johncash I think most nerds worth their salt have that problem
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tantek at some point I realized I would very likely never build everything I thought of / wanted to and just decided to start sharing it all publicly in the hopes that if someone else found something useful they would build it.
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tantek or build upon the stuff I had built.
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tantek johncash I had difficulty figuring out how much salt an average human has per pound of flesh. If you know, we could perhaps compute such worth.
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kylewm well that idiom is super gruesome now
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cuibonobo tantek: i was just reading your spec for NewBase64 and the mnemonic of number of strokes for _ + * is brilliant
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cuibonobo - + *, rather
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tantek thanks much cuibonobo!
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androtest http://m.sciencefocus.com/qa/how-much-salt-human-body
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Loqi [mention] http://www.kevinpolley.com/the-indieweb-im-taking-control/124 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] http://www.kevinpolley.com/the-indieweb-im-taking-control/124 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/silos (pingback)
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@kevpolley New post: The Indieweb - I'm taking control - http://www.kevinpolley.com/the-indieweb-im-taking-control/124 (twitter.com/_/status/492124305103540224)
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@mutualadvantage @kevpolley One way to test it is by asking How? http://www.kevinpolley.com/the-indieweb-im-taking-control/124 (twitter.com/_/status/492126590718181376)
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tantek cuibonobo: also $ IIRC
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cuibonobo yeah. the regex mnemonic for $ is very useful as well
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cuibonobo anyway, i liked it so much i forked an existing NewBase60 module to NewBase64: https://github.com/jenmontes/python-nb64
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tantek ooh nice!
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tantek do you have any particular use-case in mind for NewBase64?
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cuibonobo post ids, mostly
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tantek interesting, why not just use NewBase60 for that?
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tantek (more implementations etc., better tested in the wild etc.)
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tantek (fewer possible numbers that look like line-noise - less punctuation)
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cuibonobo bigger numbers with less digits is my only justification at the moment.
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cuibonobo i'm actually on the fence about a bunch of stuff
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tantek I can see that. I guess at the time I decided that that marginal benefit was not worth the risk of the potential more line-noise-like cost, since these would be exposed in perma(short)links.
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tantek but that was a "gut" instinctive assessment on my part - nothing scientific per se - so I can understand if you came to a different conclusion
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cuibonobo these past few days i've just been testing the reasoning for things. i can't really say i've come to any conclusions.
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cuibonobo i'm still in an idea-appreciation stage
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androtest base 1000000 is where it's at
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androtest emoji characters as numbers
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cuibonobo androtest: your favorite number could be a bird
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androtest a little bird? hahaahaha
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tantek androtest, and here I thought you were writing in binary and thus confirming that base64 is where it's at ;)
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androtest I need to impose a no irc after whisky rule
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tantek androtest, have you met tommorris? and may I invite you to #indiechat as well
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androtest I have heard of him seems like a nice enough bloke
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wolftune videos from the Indie Tech Summit are up: https://ind.ie/summit/videos/
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cuibonobo turns out that the kinds of large numbers i was thinking of (timestamps and such) have the same amount of digits in NB60 vs NB64. hah
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addal wolftune, thanks for the heads up!
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tantek.com edited /events/2014-07-16-homebrew-website-club (+109) "/* Photos */ add photo from benwerd" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Events (+159) "/* Recent */ note indieweb hack session with link to photo from benwerd" (view diff)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/t/491832528580247552/1600875498 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-07-30-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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@tommorris RT @chloeweil: Your high school's yearbook club just graduated and knows HTML: http://indiewebcamp.com/2014#East_Photos (twitter.com/_/status/492192681897259008)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/repost/twitter/chloeweil/483748813270560769/492192681897259008 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014#East_Photos (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/chloeweil/483748813270560769/7603782 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014#East_Photos (webmention)
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@kevinmarks @debcha @dconstruct @emfcamp do consider IndieWebcamp UK as well http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/UK (twitter.com/_/status/492239488421068800)
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@voxpelli @fraserspeirs @ade_oshineye One approach from @poetica: http://qz.com/234901/the-future-of-passwords-really-is-no-passwords/ Another from @indiewebcamp: http://indiewebcamp.com/RelMeAuth (twitter.com/_/status/492257887570632705)
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@blaine @voxpelli @fraserspeirs @ade_oshineye our approach on @poetica will support @indiewebcamp's RelMeAuth [in email address form]. (twitter.com/_/status/492278879382675457)
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ben_thatmustbeme good morning indiewebcamp
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barnabywalters morning ben_thatmustbeme
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cuibonobo good morning!
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ben_thatmustbeme how is everyone today?
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cweiske still waiting for a 2nd microformats parser imlementation in php
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barnabywalters cweiske: hopefully that’s out of a political/idealogical desire for diversity of implementations rather than practical blocking?
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cweiske i'm blocking myself with that
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cweiske nobody else
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cweiske diversity is the key thought here, yes
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barnabywalters cweiske: cool, I would love to see more implementations in PHP too — it would make the development of an easy to use cross-parser test suite even more useful
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barnabywalters but if there’s some technical problem in php-mf2 which is blocking I’d rather know about it and fix it than wait for another implementation which might fix it
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cweiske I hav no current problems with php-mf2.
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barnabywalters cweiske: good to hear :)
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cweiske bb
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tantek.com edited /Twitter (+1016) "/* Features */ signup, login, mute, block, report as spam, profile page configuration, SMS client" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Twitter (+439) "/* Features */ 2FA, note IndieWeb signup/login equivalents, TBI multi-factor IndieAuth, link-preview / Twitter Cards" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /autolink (+1028) "stub with dfn, IndieWeb Examples, Open Source, Silo Examples" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /autolink (+40) "note WP article uses term "autolink"" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /Auto-Link (+22) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /autolink (+16) "URLs, @-names" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /IndieAuth (-1) "/* More FAQ */ Fix FAQ link" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /RelMeAuth (+525) "/* See Also */ Added FAQ" (view diff)
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gRegor` !tell tantek, kylewm For your review, from yesterday: http://indiewebcamp.com/RelMeAuth#FAQ
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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kylewm very nice summary, gRegor`
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Loqi kylewm: gRegor` left you a message 2 minutes ago: For your review, from yesterday: http://indiewebcamp.com/RelMeAuth#FAQ
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gRegor` Might oughta go on http://microformats.org/wiki/relmeauth, too
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kylewm semi-related, should I be able to auth on http://tantek.com/relmeauth/
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gRegor` Heh, I got "Looks like I can't do anything with the webpage you suggested. Looks like I can't do anything with the webpage you suggested. Looks like I can't do anything with the webpage you suggested. None of your providers are supported. Tried https://github.com/gRegorLove, https://twitter.com/gRegorLove."
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gRegor` I wonder if it can do anything with the webpage I suggested...
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kylewm same here
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kylewm ha
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gRegor` I think it did work for me at some point, last year when I was first setting it up.
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tantek.com created /autoembed (+1372) "stub with dfn, indieweb examples with citations, open source, silo examples" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /autoembedding (+23) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Twitter (+1) "/* Features */ typo" (view diff)
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barnabywalters uh oh, superfeedr is down :( http://isup.me/superfeedr.com
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barnabywalters https://twitter.com/superfeedr/status/492334244060868608
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@superfeedr We're investigating a general networking issue that's affecting all of our feed processing. (twitter.com/_/status/492334244060868608)
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@pierreozoux http://indiewebcamp.com/ The next idea to redecentralise the web! Don't wait federated social web, take back control right now! (twitter.com/_/status/492338686164754433)
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kylewm gRegor`: it looks like it's broken since twitter replaced the rel=me with a t.co link... makes me wonder how tantek logs into Falcon
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gRegor` kylewm: I thought it was just a demo, not actual auth. Probably indieauth?
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gRegor` Or not. http://tantek.com/falcon/ fails for me as well.
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gRegor` ::shrug::
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voxpelli gRegor`: kylewm: I think tantek mentioned a while ago that the RelMeAuth code being currently broken
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voxpelli The code is here: https://github.com/themattharris/RelMeAuth
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kodfabrik.se edited /payment (+1947) "Extended Implementations section and added info about Flattr" (view diff)
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aaronpk good morning indiewebcamp!
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ben_thatmustbeme good morning
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Loqi benwerd: androte38 left you a message 1 day, 2 hours ago: @names link to a profile page 404 on werd.Io
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Loqi benwerd: johncash left you a message on 7/23 at 2:24pm: your site looks down
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benwerd androte38 / androte29: fixed in code. Thanks for the spot!
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benwerd johncash: it was ;) thanks, squid.
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@PhilKer RT @luclegay: Merci aux participants du dernier #MousseParis et rendez-vous le 22 juillet 2021 https://www.facebook.com/events/686358418098700 #indieweb http://t.c… (twitter.com/_/status/492372619770228736)
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gRegor` Quiet IWC day
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barnabywalters gRegor`: good to have a rest sometimes. often, really
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gRegor` Yep
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benwerd Has this been discussed at all?
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benwerd "This represents just another step towards validating the Indie Web, where consumers are king." http://www.ogilvydo.com/topics/tech-innovation/the-indie-web-friend-or-foe/
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benwerd Interesting view of the indie web through a brand lens.
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bear benward - can you add that to http://indiewebcamp.com/posts_about_the_indieweb
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aaronpk whoa, haven't seen that post yet
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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sam_benne hello all
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aaronpk hello sam_benne!
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aaronparecki.com edited /Posts_about_the_IndieWeb (+132) "add ogilvy article" (view diff)
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sam_benne Anyone here worked with PHP and MongoDB?
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aaronpk lots of PHP here
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cuibonobo i believe Known is PHP / Mongo, if i remember correctly
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aaronpk known used to be mongo, switched to mysql
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cuibonobo gotcha
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sam_benne Been killing myself the today and yesterday over it
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sam_benne I switched the other way
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sam_benne Been having exception after exception and nothing ever made sense
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pdurbin sam_benne: exceptions before the switch or after?
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sam_benne after
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pdurbin you gonna switch back?
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sam_benne No
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sam_benne When it works it is great
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sam_benne Just too much data and there
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sam_benne was a bug
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@gazoombo @heidiann360 @avsm @mindypreston I'm thinking that catching up with the #indieweb stuff @t is bringing into W3C might be a good exercise. (twitter.com/_/status/492404762663337985)
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@gazoombo @t I seem to recall seeing some kind of automated #indieweb site-validator, but I can't find it now... @heidiann360 @avsm @mindypreston (twitter.com/_/status/492409378545213440)
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@gazoombo @t Maybe I'm just thinking of this IndieMark checklist? http://indiewebcamp.com/IndieMark @heidiann360 @avsm @mindypreston (twitter.com/_/status/492409829571309568)
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braintrain hot damn, looks like twitter suspended this poor guys twitter account :( http://futurestack.com/blog/2014/07/23/a-little-backstory/
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braintrain https://twitter.com/futurestack :/
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braintrain https://twitter.com/ArcadeHighMusic/status/492390399743651840
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@ArcadeHighMusic Hey @newrelic remember that time you stole someone's name on Twitter and then got them suspended? Good times. @futurestack (twitter.com/_/status/492390399743651840)
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aaronpk wow that's crazy. and new relic is like 1 block away from me.
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gRegor` Crazy, though he admits he was impersonating the conference at the end, which is probably what led to the suspending. On reddit he said the impersonating was ill-advised.
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gRegor` I think if he handles it well with @Support, he could still keep his twitter
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braintrain yeah I feel like twitter and potentially offended parties should work with someone like this though to try and quell his anger first
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braintrain I know legally/terms wise dude's probably doesn't have any leverage, but he wasn't really arguing that
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braintrain but I'm maybe a bit crazy in thinking that people ranting on the internet, and finding creative ways to strike back against the big guy is commendable :p
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gRegor` I'm just commenting on the part that's getting the most attention, "BigCo steals twitter name" which does not seem correct at all.
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gRegor` Good case for indieweb, though. :)
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aaronpk yeah I was following him up until he started impersonating the conference
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braintrain yeah that's an act of frustration, it'd be best if he just tried to ignore it but I feel like he's warranted in being frustrated. I wouldn't impersonate if I was in his position but I would definitely troll
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gRegor` Sure, I'd be frustrated.
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aaronpk did he ever try to contact them? I forgot
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snarfed honestly, he comes off kinda entitled to me. namespace collisions happen. names aren't unique. deal with it.
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gRegor` Not clear if there was more than just tweets, aaronpk
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snarfed he forgets "never attribute to malice what can adequately explained by stupidity/ignorance/just being busy"
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gRegor` Good points, snarfed
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snarfed 90% of the time, when someone big steps on you, they didn't intend to. they just didn't see you there (and often still won't afterward)
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gRegor` He should have turned it to his advantage. Shown up to play/speak/be the VIP at the conference, haha
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gRegor` "It's got my name all over it"
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braintrain "My latest strategy was to pretend to be them on twitter to get some of their followers, then hopefully use that to raise publicity for this post, but they beat me to it! They got my twitter account suspended!"
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braintrain http://futurestack.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Screen-shot-2014-07-23-at-11.04.00-PM.png
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braintrain looks like he was gearing up but got shut down
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braintrain hard to tell how else he tried to impersonate when the account's suspended though :p
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bear would #indiechat be a better place for this conversation?
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braintrain http://futurestack.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Screen-shot-2014-07-23-at-11.06.47-PM.png
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gRegor` Probably
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braintrain I dunno if that's a copy or an imitation.
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@timburks Hey these "microcontent hubs" look a lot like indieweb @kevinmarks http://socialfresh.com/owning-social-content-microcontent-hub/ /via @baoch (twitter.com/_/status/492449345766436864)
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gRegor` aaronpk: I'm looking through your p3k-core code on Github. Is class Mf2Page something of yours that's unreleased, or is it third party?
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aaronpk it's mine, not broken out as a separate thing yet
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aaronpk I may not do that because in theory barnaby's is better
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aaronpk https://github.com/barnabywalters/php-mf-cleaner
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aaronpk I don't think his existed yet when I started writing my code
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gRegor` Ok. Yeah, I'm using that currently. Your code looked more concise than mine, so I was going through seeing how I could improve mine. :) I may not be taking full advantage of his mf-cleaner though.
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aaronpk ah cool. no promises on backwards-compatibility tho until it's broken out as its own module ;)
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aaronpk the good news for you is that I use that everywhere so it would take a lot of work for me to actually change the interface
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gRegor` I like that yours is OO, and methods like $targetData->hentry->property() seem handy. Currently I'm checking array keys and it just gets verbose. e.g. $entry['properties']['in-reply-to']
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aaronpk checking array keys is annoying
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aaronpk tho now with php 5.4 syntax I actually kind of prefer syntax like $entry->value(['properties','in-reply-to']) where it checks for properties before checkign for in-reply-to
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gRegor` Ah, mf-cleaner has function hasProp(). Yeah, I'm not using that lib as well as I could, clearly
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Loqi tantek: gRegor` left you a message 8 hours, 6 minutes ago: For your review, from yesterday: http://indiewebcamp.com/RelMeAuth#FAQ
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tantek good afternoon #indiewebcamp!