#indiewebcamp 2014-07-25

2014-07-25 UTC
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PMurphs IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3penrWylEk
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tantek looks good gRegor`! Thanks!
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PMurphs whoops
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tantek PMurphs ???
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PMurphs still looking forward to it though
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PMurphs posted that in all the channels I'm in
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PMurphs accidentally posted here instead of lurking
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PMurphs lol
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PMurphs but yeah, Hut Tub Time Machine 2 comes out this winter
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PMurphs *Hot Tub Time Machine 2
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@kevinmarks "@timburks: Hey these "microcontent hubs" look a lot like #indieweb @kevinmarks http://socialfresh.com/owning-social-content-microcontent-hub/ /via @baoch" and like @withknown (twitter.com/_/status/492462601092071425)
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@debs @kevinmarks 'microcontent' says brand. #indieweb says individual person 1st who may also be a brand #indieweb @timburks @baoch @withknown (twitter.com/_/status/492463528033280000)
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@kevinmarks @debs @timburks @baoch @withknown yes indeed - #indieweb is people focused, but ideas like http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE make sense for orgs too (twitter.com/_/status/492464019593125890)
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KevinMarks Thats odd, I just got an email asking to advertise on kevinmarks.com
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@benwerd @kevinmarks @debs @timburks @baoch Turns out that a lot of the things that are useful for #indieweb individuals are also useful for brands. (twitter.com/_/status/492470103544315907)
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kylewm KevinMarks: your css improvements are working!
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bnvk !tell aaronpk: what state is https://github.com/benwerd/indiereader in? The Readme is a bit thin at the moment
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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kylewm bnvk: I might be able to answer, I got it running locally
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bnvk oh?
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kylewm it works, it's pretty useable, but there are some rough edges
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kylewm like, e.g. i think you have to hit /retrieve manually to get it to fetch stuff
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bnvk is there anything tricky to do to get it up and working?
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kylewm er, it was tricky for me but i'm not a php
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kylewm i don't think there was anything tricky other than it requires nginx or apache
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gRegor` requires micropub if you want to post a reply from within the reader, but that's optional
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kylewm gRegor`: are you totally sure that's optional?
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gRegor` Not sure, but that was the impression I got. What else would micropub be required for?
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kylewm I had forgotten, but I think that's the only way to log in
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gRegor` Ah
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acegiak morning, all
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bnvk hrm, getting some bugs
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gRegor` Morning, acegiak
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bnvk kylewm: how do you add feeds to read?
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kylewm bnvk: (sorry I don't have it open). I think there is 1 page of documentation that explains it... basically you point it to a url that has an h-feed, where each entry in the h-feed links to another h-feed
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kylewm bnvk: so like mine is https://kylewm.com/static/subscriptions.html
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bnvk yah, I see that docs example, so I change sample.html to subscriptions.html ?
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kylewm hmm, if you're able to log-in, there should be a page under Settings where you can set the URL of your subscription list
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bnvk maybe that's where I'm failing I don't have auth support on my site
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kylewm yeah sorry I forgot that bit :/
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bnvk hehe
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kallistixf hi there, i'm trying to log into the indiewebcamp website using kallistixf.dreamwidth.org . i put a rel=me on it pointing to twitter, and my twitter profile points back to the dreamwidth url, but i get an "Insecure redirect error"
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bear @kallistixf - see the "Why is Twitter not working" item here http://indiewebcamp.com/IndieAuth
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kallistixf ok thanks
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kylewm bear: it looks like the site has a rel=me to https://twitter.com
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bear so it's missing the twitter handle then
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kylewm sorry i was just being lazy
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kylewm the whole thing is there
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kylewm kallistixf: can you try directly on https://indieauth.com/
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kallistixf aha, if i change my twitter link to be http://kallistixf.dreamwidth.org (not https:// ...) it works ok
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kylewm ah there you go
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kallistixf indieauth works with both the http and https versions
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bear it's considered bad in the auth realm to redirect from https to http
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bear because your going from a secure connection to an insecure one
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kallistixf yes, that's why i put in the https originally
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kylewm the problem is that https://kallistixf.dreamwidth.org redirects to http://kallistixf.dreamwidth.org
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kallistixf oh i see
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kallistixf that's not good
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bear kylewm++ for being a better wordsmith
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Loqi kylewm has 34 karma
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bear that is what I was trying to say - it's a valid error
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bear https -> http should always fail
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kylewm kallistixf: welcome, by the way! now that you're logged in, add yourself to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people if you're so inclined :)
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bear yes, welcome to IndieWeb kallistixf
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kallistixf thanks!
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kylewm and thanks bear for the underserved karma :P
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kylewm undeserved*!
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bear hahaha
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kylewm very different meaning that
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kallistixf.dreamwidth.org edited /IndieAuth (+288) "/* Why is Twitter not working */" (view diff)
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kallistixf kylewm++
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Loqi kylewm has 35 karma
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kallistixf bear++
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Loqi bear has 14 karma
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bear kallistixf++ for updating the FAQ with this new info
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Loqi kallistixf has 1 karma
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kallistixf thanks again, have a good night!
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Loqi buenas noches
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gRegor` Anyone know of a rel=in-reply-to in the wild I can use as a test?
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gRegor` not a u-in-reply to within an h-entry.
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gRegor` tantek does. nvm. :)
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@torisan33_4 RT @t: going to Homebrew Website Club Wed 30th 18:30 @MozSF, 17:30 writing hr http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-07-30-homebrew-website-club & http://www.facebook.com/events/682246018521339 (ttk.me t4XD2) (twitter.com/_/status/492497238942154752)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/repost/twitter/t/491832528580247552/492497238942154752 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-07-30-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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@legacypython ronkyuu 0.2.7: Webmention Manager (twitter.com/_/status/492500991950872576)
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bear ok, I have IndieAuth working for my website signin - well, it does the authentication, now I just have to figure out where to store the tokens
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@ItsThePotatoes RT @kevinmarks: "@timburks: Hey these "microcontent hubs" look a lot like #indieweb @kevinmarks http://socialfresh.com/owning-social-content-microcontent-hub/ /via @baoch" and lik… (twitter.com/_/status/492507105510055936)
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bear.im edited /ronkyuu (-28) "/* Working On */" (view diff)
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bear.im edited /ronkyuu (-38) "/* Features */" (view diff)
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bear.im edited /User:Bear.im (+121) "/* Projects */" (view diff)
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bear updates all of his indieweb project stuff with latest changes
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@jasongreen @clintlalonde @ajwms Webmention, IndieWeb , and IndieWeb Press This (twitter.com/_/status/492540681030610944)
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bear yes! spun up a redis server just for the purpose of storing the auth state and now I can login and have an auth token to use for micropub
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bear.im created /dainin (+469) "Created page with "'''<dfn>[https://github.com/bear/dainin dainin]</dfn>''' is a Python open source [[project]] that is being designed to handle all dynamic [[IndieWeb]] requirements for static sit..."" (view diff)
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Loqi [mention] https://bear.im/bearlog/2014/206/implementing-indieauth linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/intro-to-indieauth (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://bear.im/bearlog/2014/206/implementing-indieauth linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014 (webmention)
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@bear I wrote a post about how I implemented IndieAuth for my personal domain - https://bear.im/bearlog/2014/206/implementing-indieauth #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/492564988759113729)
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cweiske bear, so you rely on indieauth.com?
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bear oof - sorry for all the noise in channel
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bear cweiske - for now yes, the next step is to bring even the verifcation "in house"
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bear I don't even being to consider myself fluent in most things crypto - so it seemed saner to start with a known good reference
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@kevinmarks RT @bear: I wrote a post about how I implemented IndieAuth for my personal domain - https://bear.im/bearlog/2014/206/implementing-indieauth #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/492566380697239552)
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cweiske.de edited /deployment (+439) "/* Git based deploy */ how cweiske does deployment" (view diff)
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barnabywalters !tell tantek your homepage h-card doesn’t list tantek.com as your first u-url, so my feed authorship discovery tool is treating twitter.com/t as your profile URL! http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftantek.com%2F
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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voxpelli barnabywalters: would adding a u-uid solve that? thinking about the ideas that are on http://microformats.org/wiki/representative-hcard-authoring
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barnabywalters voxpelli: that’s probably a good idea, yes — I think that’s the intention of u-uid but it’s not very widely used
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voxpelli barnabywalters: yeah – is (your) feed authorship discovery documented somewhere?
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barnabywalters I’m using mf-cleaner’s getAuthor() function, which is an incomplete implementation of /authorship
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voxpelli ah – right – didn't think that covered h-feed authorship as well but of course it does
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voxpelli barnabywalters: add an issue point there about challenges in discovering author URL? it's not really an authorship issue in theory, but in practice most will probably encounter the same issue and it's good if people remember to put a u-uid there for that
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@obiwankimberly Hey! I'm at #blogher14 today! I'm tending the Geek Bar at 2:30, so come visit. We'll talk about web redirects, archives, #indieweb and more! (twitter.com/_/status/492697857497907200)
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Loqi tantek: barnabywalters left you a message 5 hours, 22 minutes ago: your homepage h-card doesn’t list tantek.com as your first u-url, so my feed authorship discovery tool is treating twitter.com/t as your profile URL! http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftantek.com%2F
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tantek barnabywalters: huh! ok I'm going to fix that, but you might not like the solution ;)
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barnabywalters er
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barnabywalters okay
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barnabywalters also good morning
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GWG I think I need to write an hcard widget/shortcode plugin for WordPress
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tantek GWG there are several out there - perhaps you can help upgrade one of them to also support h-card?
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GWG tantek: I planned on seeing if I could fork an existing project. There should be something that does author widgets
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tantek there are also a ton of "social widgets" that people use to link to their Twitter, FB, IG, etc. which could all be upgraded to automatically put rel=me links on those
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barnabywalters do we have a page listing relations between posts e.g. reply, like, repost, etc.?
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GWG Yes, but right now my goal is to take data from the existing user bio and mark up appropriately
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tantek barnabywalters: there was something that sandeep wrote up back in the day but not sure it is up to date
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tantek maybe /RSSB ?
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tantek GWG - just saying, many users could benefit from the upgrading of existing plugins
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GWG Does tge wiki have an index?
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GWG tantek, agreed
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barnabywalters okay, this is for feed reader stuff so should reflect current realworld publishing practise
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GWG But I have to find one that I like
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barnabywalters which is basically reply, like, repost, RSVP (as reply with extra property)
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tantek GWG - or just upgrade them as you go
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tantek should be pretty trivial for you
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tantek GWG re: index - check Special All Pages
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GWG tantek, still need to find one that I like
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tantek GWG, sure, but while you're looking, just tweak what you find. Can't be more than a 1-2 line change in every one you find.
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tantek who knows, maybe they'll accept your pull request
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GWG tantek: I started a location plugin because none of the existing ones worked for what I wanted.
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GWG It is possible that will happen again.
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tantek sure - but the but the author/social widgets are usually much simpler
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GWG It is just some function calls and markup, I don't think it would be so bad if I did write one.
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tantek GWG of course it's more fun (not so bad) to write one, just saying it would help all the other users of all the other similar plugins already out there.
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GWG I've been looking actually. Most are not widgetized
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tantek barnabywalters: updated my index.html - h-card and as a result h-feed as well. See how your feed reader does with this: http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftantek.com%2F
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tantek (I put my h-card at the top / body, since that's what my home page is - me)
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GWG http://wordpress.org/plugins/author-profile/screenshots/
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GWG This doesn't look so bad
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GWG Need to check out the code.
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GWG Except the interface is a bit overkill
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GWG I am definitely too opinionated
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barnabywalters parsing data is haaaaard
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barnabywalters so many edge cases
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GWG barnabywalters, my sympathies
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tantek barnabywalters, was I right?
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barnabywalters tantek: feed reader is currently in state of flux due to big change to the way posts are indexed so I can’t test right now, but your new markup looks fine and should be handled perfectly by Shrewdness
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@wraithgar All of a sudden I couldn’t push to my site, the fix was to mkdir /tmp/something and checkout a random hash in git. #indieweb: not ready (twitter.com/_/status/492714225609891840)
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tantek oh cool! glad to hear it! was worried the h-feed inside the h-card might throw it off
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tantek "couldn't push to my site" sounds like more of a git problem than an indieweb problem
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cuibonobo i don’t think he meant it as a jab at indieweb in general. only his particular instance.
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bear yes, he is trying to be an indieweb site but his tool to update posts broke because apt-get is 404'ing on him during an upgrade
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tantek bear, that's why I stick to the simple things, like scp.
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tantek (for updating my posts ;) )
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bear nods
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cuibonobo eh. the indieweb will stay a technologists-only club unless we decide to rething ‘simple’
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cuibonobo *rethink
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tantek haha - good point cuibonobo
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tantek I should have said the *simpler* things, like scp ;)
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Loqi definitely
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tantek (what I meant - since clearly anything command-line is *not* simple )
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gRegor` tantek: That might answer kylewm's question regarding the relmeauth appearing to be broken on your site. You don't log in to edit anything currently, just scp?
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tantek no I still login to PuSH & POSSE
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kylewm you don't log in via tantek.com/falcon though?
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tantek gRegor`: yes the relmeauth.php library is broken since Twitter's API 1.1 and OAuth changes (maybe even t.co of website field)
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gRegor` ^ that URL said "can't do anything with the webpage you suggested" for my site.
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tantek kylewm: I do, but have downgraded to just using Twitter sign-in
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tantek while the library is broken
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gRegor` Ah
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kylewm confirming that t.co breaks the relmeauth library, I looked yesterday
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tantek I need to document a "need help with" section my User: page
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kylewm ohhh!
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kylewm lol at "Falcon by Glider Gun", nice
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tantek kylewm :) I was wondering when someone was going to notice that ;)
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gRegor` misses the reference
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barnabywalters !tell aaronpk your replies feed page doesn’t have in-reply-to markup on! you should add it: http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Faaronparecki.com%2Freplies
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@kyle_wm See if you can guess when IndieWebCamp SF was based on my GitHub activity… https://twitter.com/kyle_wm/status/492733334489808896/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/492733334489808896)
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GWG Wordpress Brute Force Attacks....grrr...
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GWG The one part of Wordpress I get annoyed with and which makes tantek's commentary seem more legitimate.
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gRegor` There's plugins to lock that down
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gRegor` Also definitely don't use "admin" as a username
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GWG gRegor`: I know. But I think it is an area that should be core
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gRegor` Might be worth adding to http://indiewebcamp.com/WordPress#Problems
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GWG I have multiple workarounds
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david.shanske.com edited /WordPress (+707) "/* Maintenance Vulnerability */" (view diff)
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david.shanske.com edited /WordPress (+296) "/* Problems */" (view diff)
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david.shanske.com edited /WordPress (+77) "Separate Getting Started" (view diff)
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david.shanske.com edited /WordPress (+2) (view diff)
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david.shanske.com edited /WordPress (+726) "Safety and Security" (view diff)
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GWG There you are. How's that?
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david.shanske.com edited /WordPress (+237) "/* Spam/Comment Protection */" (view diff)
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david.shanske.com edited /WordPress (+0) "/* Spam/Comment Protection */" (view diff)
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david.shanske.com edited /WordPress (+271) "/* Login Security Plugins */" (view diff)
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kylewm.com edited /IndieAuth (+42) "/* FAQ */ move "insecure redirect" to its own top-level question (not twitter-specific)" (view diff)
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kylewm GWG++ for lots of improvements to the WordPress article
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Loqi GWG has 13 karma
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GWG kylewm: More to come.
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tantek 111
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@lucas_gonze Webmention URIs: https://medium.com/@lucas_gonze/bec4e0dda3c6 (twitter.com/_/status/492770706891882496)
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tantek lol URIs
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tantek "Let the act of weeding through the search engine results be manual. " <- extra LOL
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tantek oh no, the funniest thing is, the use of the term "webmention" in that medium article has nothing to do with /webmentions
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@lucas_gonze @libel_vox @kevinmarks Strawman fix: https://medium.com/@lucas_gonze/webmention-uris-bec4e0dda3c6 (twitter.com/_/status/492771622915276800)
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@lucas_gonze I used "Webmention" at https://medium.com/@lucas_gonze/webmention-uris-bec4e0dda3c6 but it is already in use at http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention . Suggestions for scheme name? (twitter.com/_/status/492771866319134720)
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tantek ironic that an article about depending on search results for disambiguation / discovery, itself doesn't bother to check search results for the term "webmention" which it purports to introduce
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KartikPrabhu1 tantek: I think he took the name 'fragmention' and then web-bed it :P
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JonathanNeal Who? What?
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tantek KartikPrabhu1: I know.
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tantek However he failed to follow his own advice
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tantek selfdogfoodfail
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KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal: https://medium.com/@lucas_gonze/bec4e0dda3c6
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kylewm someone discussed this (content-based addressing scheme) when fragmentions came up the first time... I think KBS maybe
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kylewm anyway, kinda neat idea. maybe do one search for a term before you "coin" it
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tantek now to try to figure out a way to point out this irony in ~118 characters ;)
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tantek kylewm: the entire idea *depends on* searches for things "working"
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kylewm https://twitter.com/lucas_gonze/status/492771866319134720
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@lucas_gonze I used "Webmention" at https://medium.com/@lucas_gonze/webmention-uris-bec4e0dda3c6 but it is already in use at http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention . Suggestions for scheme name? (twitter.com/_/status/492771866319134720)
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tantek so no, not a neat idea. a handwavy idea, so handwavy that the proposed name for it didn't even bother to follow the idea's own advice!
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tantek hahahaha ok he figured it out
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kylewm tantek: agree, too handwavey to discuss seriously
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KartikPrabhu why is there a need for a 'search' URL ?
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tantek because he's posting on Medium and not his own site
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KartikPrabhu hmmm...
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gregorlove.com edited /Facebook (+241) "/* See Also */ +FAQ: How do I watch videos on Facebook without Flash?" (view diff)
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: sun.java.com had really excellent forums before they bought by Oracle, who destroyed all the permalinks ... would be useul to have had a content-based scheme for those
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kylewm sorry, java.sun.com
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KartikPrabhu still don't see the need. I wouldn't link to a 'search' link for any phrase, specially one that does not specify the search engine as the results are unpredictable
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: those will not be URLs... you can not predict the result of a search to point a definite address to ti
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tantek yup - it was pointed out by kevinmarks and https://twitter.com/libel_vox/status/492771202578931712
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@libel_vox @kevinmarks @lucas_gonze true. Asking ppl "to just Google it" seems fine for breaking stuff, but - given time - popular refs will be gamed (twitter.com/_/status/492771202578931712)
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KartikPrabhu ok cool. smarter people are on the case
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kylewm :D
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kylewm this was also the person who said it was too much work to post to his own site and copy/paste to medium, btw
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kylewm even though he really wanted to post to his own site
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tantek kylewm when was that?
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: aah yes that is where I have heard his name
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@kevinmarks @lucas_gonze @libel_vox there is a name collision with webmention http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention is a protocol for notifying of a link (twitter.com/_/status/492774915578146816)
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kylewm tantek: https://kylewm.com/reply/2014/07/15/1
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tantek nice. and Kevin handles his respose well too
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kylewm renamed to "Searchme URIs" https://medium.com/@lucas_gonze/webmention-uris-bec4e0dda3c6
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gRegor` <title> still lists Webmention though
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tantek ah but notice the URL ^^^ did not change
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gRegor` And that
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tantek gRegor++
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Loqi gRegor has 3 karma
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gRegor` I don't understand this post at all
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gRegor` Maybe it's just Friday afternoon brain, though
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tantek time to screenshot the original
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@t @lucas_gonze naming your idea & article #webmention without first searching it demonstrated fallibility of your step 2 (ttk.me t4XG1) (twitter.com/_/status/492778054637203456)
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KartikPrabhu gregor`: naah... you can't blame Friday afternoon for everything :P
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gRegor` "putting the text between quotes tells readers to Google it" I don't think I have ever thought that.
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tantek and once again, I will restate, if you're not knowledgable enough about *existing* web technologies to post your ideas on your own website, then you lack the expertise to propose technical improvements to those web technologies.
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gRegor` Maybe if someone is lazy and doesn't attribute what they're quoting...
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KartikPrabhu gregor`: that never happens.. oh wait
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gRegor` "fragmentation [sic] scoped to the whole web"
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tantek gRegor`: also, here's the saddest part, not only is the *name* he chose not new/unique ("webmentions") but the idea isn't either. already done and shipping here, called /permashortcitations
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tantek (searchable citations for your posts)
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gRegor` I don't get it. Is he suggesting people tweet something like: "Lorem ipsum unattributed quotation blah blah blah" searchme?2001-01-01
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tantek specifically http://indiewebcamp.com/permashortcitations#For_original_post_discovery "Manually: using search engines"
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tantek gRegor`: presumably something fewer than 22 characters
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tantek otherwise you just use a URL and it gets tco'd
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gRegor` KartikPrabhu: Haha, well sure it happens. But I've never taken quotation marks as a prompt to search something. Much more likely to say: "Hey, lazy person, who said that quote?"
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KartikPrabhu true
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tantek more irony - none of us would have seen this tweet and medium post in the first place if he hadn't made the mistake of using "webmention" when it already meant something
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KartikPrabhu :P
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@lucas_gonze Renamed webmention to "srch." (twitter.com/_/status/492780555616780288)
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bret https://twitter.com/lucas_gonze/status/492776566510743552
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tantek 2nd renaming
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Loqi bret: aaronpk left you a message 2 days, 4 hours ago: that's interesting, does that mean I should a) drop my atom feed completely or b) continue maintaining a specific rendering of my content as an atom feed?
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@lucas_gonze @kevinmarks Renamed "searchme." (twitter.com/_/status/492776566510743552)
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bret ah
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tantek 3rdb name total
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tantek s/3rdb/3rd
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Loqi tantek meant to say: 3rd name total
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bret good, that is the right thing to do
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JonathanNeal “KartikPrabhu knows what he is writing about”
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tantek btw here is a POSSE citation for prior statement of that restatement above: https://twitter.com/t/status/365195886940258304
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@t new rule: if you can't publish your *web* "standard" doc/spec in *HTML*, go learn HTML before trying innovate. #osfw3c (ttk.me t4RQ7) (twitter.com/_/status/365195886940258304)
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gRegor` "srch"? Do I hear "s"?
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tantek on a more productive note - if anyone here is interested in giving a talk about IndieWeb, in particular how you've built or setup your own indieweb site, check this out and make a proposal! http://html5devconf.com/cfs-oct2014.html
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tantek especially those who have given talks before!
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tantek !tell aaronpk,benwerd,caseorganic,erinjo,bret,dietrich,garbee,glennjones,kevinmarks if you're interested in giving a talk about IndieWeb sometime 2014-10-20..24, in particular how you've built or setup your own indieweb site, check this out and make a proposal! http://html5devconf.com/cfs-oct2014.html - feel free to mention that Tantek recommended you make a proposal (I was on their speaker board for a while) - and that offer is open to
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tantek anyone in #indiewebcamp.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Garbee yo
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bret cool tantek. I have been thinking of putting together a formal indieweb presentation for a while
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Garbee sup loqi
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Loqi Garbee: tantek left you a message 1 minute ago: if you're interested in giving a talk about IndieWeb sometime 2014-10-20..24, in particular how you've built or setup your own indieweb site, check this out and make a proposal! http://html5devconf.com/cfs-oct2014.html - feel free to mention that Tantek recommended you make a proposal (I was on their speaker board for a while) - and that offer is open to
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Loqi bret: tantek left you a message 1 minute ago: if you're interested in giving a talk about IndieWeb sometime 2014-10-20..24, in particular how you've built or setup your own indieweb site, check this out and make a proposal! http://html5devconf.com/cfs-oct2014.html - feel free to mention that Tantek recommended you make a proposal (I was on their speaker board for a while) - and that offer is open to
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Garbee tantek: OMG. I'd love to do something like that once I launch this new store site and get indie stuff integrated for sharing data.
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Garbee But, it wont' be in time for anything really to be planned this year. :(
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Garbee Thanks for the offer though. Great to know that kind of stuff is possible.
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tantek ok I've screenshotted and "Select All" "View Selection Source" "Save As…" the original HTML as well of Lucas's article, since he kept renaming it.
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Loqi [mention] http://hmans.io/fhc894 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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hmans \o/
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Loqi hmans: tantek left you a message on 7/17 at 5:44pm: go ahead and create a page indiewebcamp.com/pants that describes the project - even with just a stub like you did in IRC: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-07-17#t1405627280
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tantek hmans well done!
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hmans \o/
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tantek hmans++
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hmans Thanks. :)
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Loqi hmans has 6 karma
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hmans The @mentions were a user request, they're really quite fun. tbh it would still send out webmentions if I simply used a normal link, but just typing @indiewebcamp.com is kind of sexy, too.
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hmans I'm aiming at making #pants' aggregator consume h-entry and discover RSS/ATOM feeds in the long run, so a #pants user could just "follow" @indiewebcamp.com like they'd be following a twitter account and have its posts show up in their timeline/mobile app.
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hmans I should totally Kickstart this. I'm just too busy coding :P~
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tantek nice! so you have homepage webmentions working then? I wonder if anyone here (benwerd? aaronpk? barnabywalters?) has a queue of their homepage webmentions they check?
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Loqi yea
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gRegor` I accept homepage mentions, but don't do anything with them yet.
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hmans tantek, yeah, I want to re-implement following/follower notifications by sending webmentions with source eg. http://hmans.io/following to http://userimfollowing.com
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gRegor` Nice work, hmans
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hmans So, when #pants receives a homepage webmention, it'll check the source page for a rel=following and then make the connection
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hmans thanks \o/
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gRegor` Still need that /pants page. ;)
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hmans totally. I'm just... it's... I... uh.
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gRegor` So we can ask Loqi "what is pants?" and get an answer :)
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gRegor` Hehe
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hmans see, even I don't know the answer quite yet
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hmans even though it's becoming a bit clearer now.
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@rabese12 RT @t: @lucas_gonze naming your idea & article #webmention without first searching it demonstrated fallibility of your step 2 (ttk.me t4XG1) (twitter.com/_/status/492791941117902850)
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@t @lucas_gonze except changing after publishing defeats the purpose of permalinking (your URL still has "/webmention-"). (ttk.me t4XG2) (twitter.com/_/status/492792184337231872)
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gregorlove.com created /pants (+93) "stubbed" (view diff)
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gRegor` Boom
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gRegor` what is pants?
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Loqi Pants is the name of the software User:hmans.io is developing http://indiewebcamp.com/pants
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tantek pants++
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Loqi pants has 1 karma
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gregorlove.com edited /pants (+88) "Example + Github link" (view diff)
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hmans \o/
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hmans Would it make sense to make #pants an IndieAuth provider?
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hmans ie, I enter hmans.io into indieauth.com, and hmans.io itself verifies my identity?
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hmans.io edited /pants (+76) "/* Indieweb Examples */" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Events (-17) "/* Upcoming */ Portland HWC 2014-07-30 location good to go" (view diff)
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tantek hmans - yes absolutely
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hmans Is it just up to me to implement it, or would I need to have it added to indieauth itself?
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Loqi KevinMarks: tantek left you a message 50 minutes ago: if you're interested in giving a talk about IndieWeb sometime 2014-10-20..24, in particular how you've built or setup your own indieweb site, check this out and make a proposal! http://html5devconf.com/cfs-oct2014.html - feel free to mention that Tantek recommended you make a proposal (I was on their speaker board for a while) - and that offer is open to
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tantek welcome back KevinMarks
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KevinMarks Thanks Tantek. I should read the logs...
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tantek KevinMarks: a bit of humor at Lucas's expense - fairly innocuous
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tantek (especially after he called "irony alert" on you)
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hmans tantek, what I'd like to do is to have hmans.io communicate to indieauth.com that it can already vouch for my identity without going through Twitter, Github etc.
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cuibonobo hmans: http://indiewebcamp.com/indieauth.com gives me the impression that indieauth.com has a specific registry of ‘providers'
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hmans I don't know if that is possible with the protocol?
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hmans Yeah, it does, but hmans.io is just one of many #pants-run sites that would gain this functionality. It's more like OpenID really.
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hmans (ie. I could just turn every #pants site into an OpenID provider, but is anyone still using that?)
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hmans (using == consuming)
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tantek hmans - I agree with what you'd like to do!
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hmans Or semantically speaking, I don't need Twitter to prove that I'm really hmans, because hmans.io could already prove it.
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cuibonobo i wonder if there’s some way to mark up your website and have indieauth.com read whether it can be a provider
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cuibonobo so that we don’t need a central registry
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tantek hmans - fewer and fewer OpenID consumers: http://indiewebcamp.com/OpenID#Shutdowns
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tantek cuibonobo: pretty sure indieauth - the spec - has a way of doing that
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tantek but it's just that the indieauth plugin for mediawiki *is not yet* doing the full delegated auth thing
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tantek so, commenting systems - is it worth pursuing them as a separate thing any more?
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tantek or can we all switch all new commenting systems projects to "just" use webmentions?
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hmans In #pants, comments are just posts referencing URLs.
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hmans (Likes, too, but they're not 100% done yet.)
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bret nice hmans! :)
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tantek hmans - yes that's how replies work on the indieweb too - just a post with an in-reply-to of another post
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hmans ^ that
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tantek not just a "reference" or "mention" (since people mention URLs all the time that they're not "commenting" on
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tantek )
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tantek awesome dialog I just got from FB:
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tantek "Sorry, we got confused
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tantek Please try refreshing the page or closing and re-opening your browser window."
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gRegor` For the logs, Re: commenting systems, this came up in #indiechat due to a reference to the Discourse forum software. I commented that boingboing uses it.
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gRegor` I also still accept local blog comments on my site because I don't want to cut non-indieweb people off yet.
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hmans so, re IndieAuth, what I'd like to do is to add a link rel to my <head> to indicate an endpoint that will accept a POST with a token that the server will POST back to the querying server. Or something in those lines.
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tantek and that error message is what happens if you have a FB tab open with "private" session/info e.g. a chat, and open ANOTHER FB tab and switch to "using as a page", and then go back to the first FB tab
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tantek so weird
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tantek gRegor`: re: not cutting out non-indieweb people - why not just send them to reply on Twitter?
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tantek then when they tweet you'll get the bridgy webmention and viola!
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gRegor` Not sure what stringed instruments have to do with it. ;)
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tantek s/viola/voila
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Loqi tantek meant to say: then when they tweet you'll get the bridgy webmention and voila!
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gRegor` That's an ok idea, but 1) If they're on my site, I'd rather not send them away to interact 2) I like that they can have longer text and some formatting options if they comment on the blog.
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gRegor` I feel like webmention > local blog comments > tweets.
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cuibonobo hmans: yes! and per my reading of http://indiewebcamp.com/indieauth, that’s not something that has been proposed yet
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tantek gRegor`: with the "reply" "Twitter intent" you don't send them away to interact - it's just a small pop-up
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tantek you really think they need longer than 140 chars to write a comment?
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hmans cuibonobo, maybe it'd be enough to implement OpenID and add the openid.delegate link... hm
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gRegor` Eh, I still think it's a clunky experience. Why should I send them to a silo when they can comment on my own domain?
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tantek cuibonobo: not only has delegating auth been proposed, but it already works with Ownyourgram.com!
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tantek and cweiske has set himself up as his own indieauth provider accordingly
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hmans tantek! That's cool
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tantek is wondering how this is missed on the wiki, hmm. maybe /IndieAuth
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gRegor` Local blog comments are already set up and working for over a decade now, so changing that to a silo link, which I might have to change again in 5 years when Twitter isn't a thing anymore... :)
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tantek hmans! yes! so there's a defined way, and at least an implementation of a consumer and an delegated indieauth provider
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hmans I'll dig into that.
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gRegor` Friends have definitely left longer comments than 140 characters.
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tantek gRegor`: that's reasonable. I suppose I see so much spam coming in via WordPress that I would switch off "local" comments just to avoid that hassle
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tantek gRegor`: sounds like you should upgrad your friends to having their own site (or even Tumblr, which I think via Bridgy now sends webmentions? or something like that?)
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tantek s/upgrad/upgrade
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Loqi tantek meant to say: gRegor`: sounds like you should upgrade your friends to having their own site (or even Tumblr, which I think via Bridgy now sends webmentions? or something like that?)
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gRegor` True true. I'm working to evangelize. :)
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gRegor` Got my girlfriend onto her own domain at IWC this year, from a Blogspot blog :)
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tantek gRegor++
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Loqi gRegor has 4 karma
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hmans Woohoo, Bridgy just placed a Webmention on http://hmans.io/fhc894
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hmans I wonder why its own URL doesn't just redirect me to the original tweet?
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gRegor` I'm also strongly considering using a new framework for my site, which would be something I could actually release and assist others with installing.
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hmans Oh, I see, it has a mf2'd page
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cuibonobo tantek: ah! found it: http://indiewebcamp.com/distributed-indieauth
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gRegor` I like the CMS I've used for over a decade now, but its future is not clear and while it's powerful, it's not always the most userfriendly.
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hmans that I should parse.
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tantek hmans - because its own URL has the properly marked up h-entry and in-reply-to, while the original tweet does not
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gRegor` /Nucleus is the CMS I use, for reference.
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tantek ah ok
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hmans tantek, including a canonical link tag, nice
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hmans So I should just parse that, check if it references a tweet, and then go wild.
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cuibonobo tantek: but there’s no mention of it on /indieauth, which explains the wild goose chase
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tantek.com created /delegated-indieauth (+35) "because I mistyped it" (view diff)
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hmans Speaking of which... what's the status on oEmbed? Are people still using it? It feels... dead.
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hmans Also, Twitter kind of killed it by putting its oEmbed endpoint behind its auth*
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tantek.com edited /distributed-indieauth (+305) "dfn, see also" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /IndieAuth (+28) "/* See Also */ distributed-indieauth" (view diff)
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hmans Oh, it looks like they un-deprecated their v1 API. Can you believe these guys? https://dev.twitter.com/docs/api/1/get/statuses/oembed
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tantek hopefully making that more findable
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cuibonobo cool
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tantek hmans - oEmbed - perhaps the first of the doomed one-off JSON protocols/formats.
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tantek (proposed standards)
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hmans tantek, are there any useful alternatives?
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tantek hmans - see /link-preview :)
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tantek ways to "just use HTML"
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tantek which in fact, FB, Twitter ended up doing, albeit with their own ways (e.g. /OGP and /Twitter-Cards
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tantek )
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hmans But isn't that something different?
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KevinMarks_ one way to "just use HTML" is <iframe>see http://pageaspreview.herokuapp.com/
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hmans I'm using oEmbed to ask Twitter for "their" HTML to render a tweet.
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hmans (as opposed to structured/preview data.)
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tantek basically it's the inevitable outcome for any one-off JSON format proposed as a standard - eventually it gets replaced by something simpler and easier to support based in HTML.
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hmans better example: Youtube. I want to get the HTML to embed the video, not the preview thumbnail.
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tantek hmans - why not just a blockquote for Twitter?
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KevinMarks_ embedded tweets do that fro twitter: https://dev.twitter.com/docs/embedded-tweets
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hmans Okay, but what about Youtube?
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tantek hmans - I embed YouTube automatically all the time using the /CASSIS /auto-link function
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KevinMarks_ you embed a blockquote, and include a decorator script the renders the tweets
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tantek which just munges the youtube URL into an iframe embed
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hmans Here's why this stuff is important to me:
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tantek so, oembed, meh
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KevinMarks_ benward of this parish works on embedded tweets
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hmans In #pants, when I use the Markdown formatting for images, what it'll do is fetch the page, do discovery for oEmbed endpoints, and then use that to get proper embed HTML. If anything in that chain fails, it'll fall back to just inserting an image.
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hmans Why is this useful? You want to embed any kind of media, and instead of manually fetching the HTML embed code, you just paste in the URL (using the image syntax) and #pants will do the rest for you.
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hmans So if the URL is a tweet, it'll fetch the tweet embed HTML
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hmans if it's a Youtube video, it'll fetch their embed HTML
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hmans if it's a site that I don't even know yet but it does oEmbed, it'll fetch _their_ embed HTML, too.
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hmans Which is just very different from OG/preview bytes.
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tantek.com edited /IndieAuth (+231) "/* FAQ */ How do I make my site do the authorization itself - distributed-indieauth" (view diff)
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KevinMarks_ so you're in effect asking them to give an iframe-friendly HTML
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hmans I agree, tough, that it'd be easier/cooler to just extract the embed HTML from the actual page containing the media, not going to through oEmbed JSON loop.
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hmans Yeah
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tantek hmans - why do you believe their " proper embed HTML" ?!?
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KevinMarks_ my contention is that if the site is responsive enough, you cna just embed the page itself
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KevinMarks_ that was the point of http://pageaspreview.herokuapp.com/
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JonathanNeal Neat idea, KevinMarks_, what happened?
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benward Hmans: We never took away unauthed OAuth in the Twitter API, and it continues to live on the same URL.
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KevinMarks_ s/OAuth/oEmbed/
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benward Oh, yeah. That's what I meant ;-)
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hmans benward, for a long time, that page had a big warning about v1 being shut down. First time I'm checking since 2012-ish, though. :)
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tantek whoa hello benward! (I had to triple read that IRC nick to make sure I wasn't misreading it!)
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benward “Unauthed OAuth.” Eesh I need a nap.
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tantek hmans, JonathanNeal to be clear - benward is different than, but similarly awesome, to benwerd.
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benward Hmans: Oh yeah, I think that banner was universal on the API docs to ensure awareness. Sorry for the confusion.
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hmans benward, thanks for the headsup. All in all I'm very happy to see the endpoint is still available.
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KevinMarks_ does widgets.js call that endpoint too?
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benward KevinMarks_: No, the actual rendered content comes from a different service.
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benward We do use it to power the "embed this tweet" dialog on twitter.com and TweetDeck though.
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snarfed hmans: nice work on webmentions etc!
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snarfed re resolving the bridgy links, sounds like you're on top of it. details in https://www.brid.gy/about#appspot
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hmans thanks \o/
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snarfed u-url is the only specific thing. then you can just follow http://indiewebcamp.com/comments-presentation, like for non-bridgy responses
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hmans snarfed \o/
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KevinMarks_ JonathanNeal: it was a sketch of an idea, i didn't wrap ti up as a service/api
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JonathanNeal tantek, hmans, did I get benward and benwerd confused?
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JonathanNeal KevinMarks_: it’s a neat idea, minus the page load. Also, if you covered the iframe with a div to prevent selection and scrolling, the effect would be even more complete.
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hmans benward, please note that my Twitter timeline wasn't loading for two weeks or so, which made me build my own distributed social micromacroblogging network so it's all your fault.
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KevinMarks_ it also kind-of assumes a 2x retina display
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snarfed that's the most important thing to do in life! determine who to blame
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snarfed :P
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JonathanNeal KevinMarks_: the preview? It looks great to me on a 1x desktop.
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gRegor` snarfed: Blame Canada
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KevinMarks_ they look OK, but if you have a retina display they're actually readable
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KevinMarks_ which is a reason not to block scrolling...
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KevinMarks_ probably more someone in ops fault than Ben's
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snarfed gRegornobacktick++
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Loqi gRegornobacktick has 6 karma
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tantek hmans++
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Loqi hmans has 7 karma
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JonathanNeal KevinMarks_: awesome that you got to work with Lea Verou on that, if it’s the case.
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KevinMarks_ this was at the w3conf last year, and I asked Lea how to get the transforms to work on an iframe, as she is a genius at that stuff
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tantek leaverou++ I was there and I saw it happen too!
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Loqi leaverou has 1 karma
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KevinMarks_ leaverou++
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Loqi leaverou has 2 karma
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gRegor` I'll need to consolidate my karma from gRegornobacktick and gRegor at some point. :)
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KevinMarks_ ooh, we should invite lea to indieweb cambridge, she should be at MIT by then
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hmans snarfed, https://snarfed.org/2014-07-25_twitter-hmans-heaps-of-new-stuff-in-pants landed on http://hmans.io/fhc894 beautifully! Except I'm not processing the webmention sources nearly enough, but at least it's linking back.
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snarfed hmans: i saw! glad to hear it!
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hmans \o/ http://hmans.io/gyq056 \o/ benward
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gRegor` snarfed: Does the wordpress setup automatically like the associated tweet for that post, or do you paste in both links to 'like'?
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snarfed gRegor`: actually neither. it uses bridgy publish
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snarfed so i guess the latter, plus that
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snarfed but i only did that because pants doesn't have rel-syndication links yet. kylewm recently added a bridgy publish feature where, if you reply/like/repost an indie post, and it has syndication links to silo posts, bridgy publish automatically replies/likes/reposts inside the silo too
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snarfed (which is awesome)
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hmans Yeah, I'm not good with the POSSE stuff yet :/
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snarfed gRegor`: https://www.brid.gy/about#reply
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snarfed hmans: np! do it manually as long as it doesn't bother you
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gRegor` Ahh, awesome.
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gRegor` Yeah, bassically I was wondering if you pasted in one link and syndication/backlink filled in the other.
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hmans HTML/JS/DOM/browser question... when I have <img> tags, and their hrefs give me 4xx or 5xx responses, is it possible to intercept these in JS and replce the image with a placeholder on the fly?
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JonathanNeal hmans: yes
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hmans Or would I have to go the route of a data-url attribute and do the image loading/filling "manually"?
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hmans JonathanNeal, any pointers? Google results have been disappointing :(
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JonathanNeal hmans: in javascript, the image element has a property, .complete. Similarly, there are load and error events that can be listened to.
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hmans JonathanNeal, oh, that sounds easy enough. My google-fu is bad tonight. :/
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JonathanNeal Looks like my computer is being a little slow in delivering responses. Sorry.
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JonathanNeal I would be happy to help you further on the project, get it set up on my machine, and contribute. Whatever floats your boat. It looks really good.
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kylewm hmans: cuibonobo: per your question earlier about indieauth.com delegating to your site for authorization -- cweiske has implemented his own authorization endpoint, and it's a coming soon feature for indieauth.com to accept it
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hmans kylewm, perfect!
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kylewm I think it is <link rel="authorization_endpoint" href="http://indieauth.id.cweiske.de/" />
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hmans JonathanNeal, anytime! I haven't been very good with writing documentation/setup instructions/etc., but the code is all on github.com/hmans/pants. Moving very fast though, so if you start hacking, let me know what you're up to
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gRegor` On http://indiewebcamp.com/authorship#Determining, under the rel-author sub-section, I'm not sure I understand the difference between #2 and #4.
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kylewm hmans: ah it was in my browser history http://fotos.cweiske.de/screenshots/2014-07-02%20indieauth%20coming%20soon.png
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gRegor` 2: "if there's an h-card with a u-url == u-uid == that page's URL, use that h-card for the author."
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gRegor` 4: "otherwise if there's an h-card on the post's page with a u-url == rel-author link's href, use that h-card for the author."
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hmans kylewm, that is exactly what I was looking/hoping for. Thanks.
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JonathanNeal hmans: forking now
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hmans JonathanNeal, I've taken care to keep the code simple and easy to maintain, but the specs are not nearly good enough. :/
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gRegor` "u-url == u-uid == that page's URL" seems the same as "u-url == rel-author link's href", just more verbose.
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JonathanNeal hmans: what would you like help with presently? fallback images?
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hmans JonathanNeal, I think I already got those covered... not sure right now tbh. I have a Trello board set up at https://trello.com/b/PVYzhNKx/pants if you want to see what I'm up to next
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hmans I'm mostly cleaning up and hardening things at the moment, hoping to take on some more users this weekend using the self-serve site
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hmans I'm a horrible open-source maintainer :(
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JonathanNeal hmans: oh me, too, it’s all good.
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JonathanNeal still in bundle install
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JonathanNeal hmans: bummer, https://gist.github.com/jonathantneal/10b2ad57295471693abd
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hmans JonathanNeal, do you have Postgres installed?
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JonathanNeal Yes, and running.
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hmans Hm. The pg gem should pick it up through pg_config.
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hmans Maybe you need to install the gem manually and specify --with-pf-config
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hmans s/pf/pg
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Loqi hmans meant to say: Maybe you need to install the gem manually and specify --with-pg-config
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hmans Thanks Loqi. :P~
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Loqi you're welcome
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hmans \o/
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hmans Rails really is the worst platform to build something like #pants on, but it's what I'm fastest with. :/
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hmans I'm hoping to build an implementation in something like Go or Elixir at some point in the future
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hmans For easier deployment, I'm hoping I'll be able to provide Docker containers.
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JonathanNeal hmans: i think it’s just dandy! So, what’s the full command I need to be sure to run? gem install pg -v --with-pg-config ?
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hmans I think it's gem install pg -- --with-pg-config=/path/to/pg_config
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hmans (note the extra --)
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JonathanNeal and which config do I need to reference?
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hmans Your Postgresql should have an exectuable called pg_config, you'll need to point at that.
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hmans (It will feed configuration data to the compiler)
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hmans Man... remember when web development was easy? :/\/\/\/
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JonathanNeal Okay, I have the gem installed and pointed to the right pg_config, bundle installing again.
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JonathanNeal hmans: oh yea, real easy <p onclick=“do_the_thing()
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JonathanNeal location.href=‘my_other.php’;”>
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hmans :P
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JonathanNeal so after bundle install, rake db:migrate? or is there a creation step?
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hmans I'm seriously pondering if something like #pants shouldn't just be PHP (+ MySQL) so people could just throw it into their $2/month web space directories... but... no.
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hmans rake db:setup
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JonathanNeal hmans: i could also help with the PHP port. =)
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hmans It'll fill your database with some seed data (check db/seed.rb)
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hmans What OS are you on?
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JonathanNeal MacOS
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JonathanNeal after db:setup anything else before I rails s? Or should I foreman start?
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hmans Oh, okay... best way to run it for development is to set up Invoker, bundler will have installed it for you, but you need to let it install the stuff it needs to give you *.dev domains.
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hmans The seed data is expecting you to use andy.pants.dev and ben.pants.dev
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hmans With a bit of luck I'll find some time soon to write all this stuff up.
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hmans The whole thing is just a month old :P~
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gRegor` hmans: At least it's in the logs now, so you can point to that. :)
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KevinMarks_ gRegor`: i think the difference is that case 2 is that you are on the home page of the author u-url=u-uid= the page you're on
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rascul hmans if it can run on heroku or openshift it can be free
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JonathanNeal hmans: i don’t even fully understand what it does yet, other than let you write tweets on your own site, and like other people that do the same thing
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KevinMarks_ in case 3 you are in an article page so u-url==rel-author so it's an hcard for the post
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JonathanNeal hmans: but i didn’t understand what KevinMarks_ was trying to do with fragmentions either, it’s fun to program like that
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hmans rascul, yeah, I'm making sure it runs fine on a free Heroku dyno, but I haven't actually set an instance up there yet.
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hmans JonathanNeal, I'm happy to set you up with a site so you can play around with a working install before hacking the code... http://hmans.io/lrn569
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KevinMarks_ gRegor`: so kevinmarks.com is case 2
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JonathanNeal hmans: so after i rake db:setup, you’re saying I need to do something else? Or just tell my hosts file to listen to andy.pants.dev?
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KevinMarks_ and kevinmarks.com/fragmentions.html is case 4
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hmans In addition to the stuff mentioned on http://hmans.io/lrn569, there's also Option C where I give you a subdomain under *.pnt.li, but of course you wouldn't own it.
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gRegor` KevinMarks: Hmm, let me look
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hmans JonathanNeal, `invoker setup` will set up the *.dev stuff
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hmans after that, start the server with `invoker start Procfile`
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KevinMarks_ except kevinmarks.com is mf1 not mf2. I should fix that
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gRegor` You don't rel-author link to kevinmarks.com/fragmentions.html anywhere, do you though?
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KevinMarks_ no, I link to kevinmarks.com
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JonathanNeal hmans: is invoker another gem I need to install?
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KevinMarks_ that's the point
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hmans JonathanNeal, bundle install should have installed it for you
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gRegor` If kevinmarks.com/fragmentions.html didn't have a p-author, I would follow the rel-author to kevinmarks.com . . .
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gRegor` Then I would check that h-card from kevinmarks.com, see the u-url is kevinmarks.com, and that's case 4, right?