#indiewebcamp 2014-07-29

2014-07-29 UTC
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tantek.com created /📲 (+21) "r" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu gregor`: designers have been forcefully assuring me that visual design affects the emotional state of the reader ;)
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tantek KartikPrabhu: deliberate emotional design (manipulation) is different from experimentation ;)
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KartikPrabhu hmm how?
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tantek because, experiments! science! fear!
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tantek ;)
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KartikPrabhu unless designer don't do A/B testing
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gRegor` Telling someone they have a 90% match when ti's 30% is not "visual design"
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KartikPrabhu it is content strategy :P
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gRegor` If your strategy is to experiment on people who don't know it, sure.
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KartikPrabhu so people will take "30% match" as given by an algorithm seriously, but won't allow such algorithms to play with their data!?
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KartikPrabhu hypocrisy much
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gRegor` Huh?
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gRegor` If you claim you're showing A but you're knowingly showing B, that's not very ethical
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KevinMarks_ it's the script of a romantic comedy
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KartikPrabhu I don't think either OKC or FB claim to be lying to users
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bear they all but admitted they lied when they said that they altered the feed content to test emotional responses (IMO)
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KartikPrabhu yeah they altered it... different from we showed stuff that does not exist
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bear an alteration is still a lie, it may not be fabricated from whole clothe lie, but it's still not the truth
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bear now if you said they only omitted things, I might let that wiggle thru the BS detectors
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KartikPrabhu bear: how does on determine if an algorithm is lying?
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bear (sorry, this is off topic and a sore point for me)
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gRegor` I think especially with FB people thing "they do this all the time" because FB is always changing things. It's true, but I think it deflects from talking about the deeper issues.
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KartikPrabhu if I change one parameter in my algorithm it will give different answers
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bear an algorithm cannot lie - it delivers the data as given - but the people running the algorithm can change the data or the results (or how the results are used) to lie
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gRegor` Both these things are on the wiki, so it's OT. :)
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bear nods to gRegor`
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gRegor` realized the ambiguity of "OT"
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gRegor` on topic. Hehe
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bear sorry for being OT KartikPrabhu and others
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tantek off topic or on topic? ;)
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gRegor` I think it's on topic. Just not a commonly discussed topic. :)
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bear for me that discussion is what makes science science - knowing how an algorithm uses, calculates and delivers data and then verifying that all the steps are factual
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tantek gRegor`: I mean does OT mean on or off ;)
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gRegor` Hehe
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tantek bear - I think the complaints are coming from the claim that it was done as part of proper academic research, whereas proper academic psych research has certain well established ethics guidelines which were not followed
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bear ya know, I don't think I ever considered OT as also being On Topic - I just never used or thought of that
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gRegor` I intended it as on topic, but I think it's usually meant as "off topic". I'll just spell out my words. :)
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KevinMarks_ there are 2 sets of complaints
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KevinMarks_ one is as tantek says people pointing out that this was not a great experiment
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KevinMarks_ the other is what Zeynep called "fear of breaking the fourth wall"
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KevinMarks_ where people get a tiny inkling of how their lives are led by algorithms and experience existential dread
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bear has FB ever had the "fourth wall" ?
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KevinMarks_ then go back to paying $200 in-game fees to Kim Kardashian
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks_ that is my point. People are only complaining due to the "I am just a bunch of numbers" realisation... not some violation of psych ethics
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KartikPrabhu even if FB had followed all academic standards of psych-ethics people would be miffed
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gRegor` "only"? Nah
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KartikPrabhu yeah well...
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gRegor` Also if it had been done propertly, I'm pretty sure people have have had to have opted in, right?
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KartikPrabhu that is my conjecture and I am sticking to it until proven wrong
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KevinMarks_ https://twitter.com/zeynep/status/493814674853728256
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@zeynep Algorithmic experiments bother people because they break down the fourth wall—they show us how everything is filtered, outside our power. (twitter.com/_/status/493814674853728256)
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KartikPrabhu gregor`: I am sure there is a clause in the ToS that people agreedto
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tantek.com moved /One-Click_Install_of_your_IndieWeb_Site to /2011/One-Click_Install_of_your_IndieWeb_Site "scope to 2011 as this was a 2011 session"
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gRegor` I'm referring to psych ethics, not a ToS
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KartikPrabhu gregor`: but what if the ToS gave them permission already
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KartikPrabhu who knows... someone will have to read them
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gRegor` IANAP, but I would think/hope that wouldn't be enough for an ethically sound psych study. "Oh, they agreed to a ToS they didn't read 5 years ago and it's changed a billion times since then? Ok!"
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gRegor` I think just perusing articles written in response to the FB news is enough to show plenty are concerned about the psych ethics of it, not just "FB outrage"
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KartikPrabhu gregor`: those are technical people... not common users
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bret.io edited /2014/Demos (+55) "/* Paul and Darrin */ Added link to theme" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu I still think that normal users today do not really care if corporations have their data to use/abuse
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gRegor` I would agree with that.
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KartikPrabhu only technical people and/or creators are concerned
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gRegor` Ignorance and/or the convenience outweighs it.
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KartikPrabhu yes
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bret !tell herbsmn Here is that tumbler theme that was made at IWC2014: http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/Demos#Paul_and_Darrin
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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gRegor` But I think that makes talking about it all the more important.
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gRegor` And working on ways to liberate people from the silos, of course.
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tantek.com edited /2011/one-click-install (+301) "update image links, see also, not a stub since it's a session notes page" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu pointing out what people already know and do not care about doesn't seem like a good strategy to change minds
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gRegor` Your argument seemed to be they don't know.
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gRegor` Or know enough to care.
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gRegor` What strategy do you suggest?
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tantek.com edited /2011/One-Click_Install_of_your_IndieWeb_Site (+312) "headings, see also" (view diff)
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KevinMarks_ best twitter thread (apart from This American Lear) https://twitter.com/pmarca/status/492982054934429698
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@pmarca @netik Yep, yours was so much better. Wait, which one was that again? (twitter.com/_/status/492982054934429698)
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KartikPrabhu gregor`: I'll tell you when I find out
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gRegor` :)
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bear @KevinMarks_ thanks for that link - I missed that conversation and i'm LOL'ing over it now
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KartikPrabhu I have been trying to convince people that I don't care for FB for years and never succeeded
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gRegor` That's hilarious, KevinMarks
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gRegor` What's This American Lear?
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pdurbin that's pretty awesome
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tantek.com created /install (+723) "stub with dfn, past sessions, see also" (view diff)
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tantek would you believe we never had an "install" page before?
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KevinMarks_ http://kottke.org/14/07/this-american-lear
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bret tantek because its been more of a "code this from scratch!" process thus far ;)
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gRegor` apt-get indieweb
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johncash KartikPrabhu: i deleted my facebook
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KartikPrabhu johncash: great! I have been testing the waters. Haven't logged in in 2 weeks
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bret the more I use yum, the more i hate apt-get
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tantek.com edited /store (+35) "linky" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /installing (+21) "r" (view diff)
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bret KartikPrabhu so worth it! Just gram email addresses or other points of contact of people you care about
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gRegor` KartikPrabhu: Is the goal of convincing them to get them to not use FB as well?
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bear really - I'm the other way on that
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KartikPrabhu johncash: also I got a lot of backlash when I deleted it last time about 8 years back
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tantek that's what I get for trying to link an emoji to something sensible, like /install , and then discovering that no such page exists(!)
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bret KartikPrabhu and if its not listed, you care about them, so its a good oportunity to ask them!
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KartikPrabhu gregor`: if they pester me to stay then there is no point attempting to convince them to leave
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johncash I'm not even that anti-silo
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bret I found facebook acted as an artifucial layer of contact between myself and others... we would go catch up with each others facebook pages instead of actually with each other
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johncash I'm just anti facebook
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gRegor` Ok, Just clarifying what you meant by "convince people I don't care for FB." So you're responding to pestering from them.
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bret artificial *
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gRegor` johncash++
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Loqi johncash has 3 karma
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KartikPrabhu well not pestering but just "FB helps me keep in touch" argument is idiotic
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KartikPrabhu johncash: same here. let my WhatsApp expire too
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gRegor` Yeah, I'm pretty anti-facebook myself :) I'm pretty much to the point that it's just another way to collect comments on my posts now, thanks to brid.gy. Occasional messages to people who I know are more likely to get a FB message than an email
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gRegor` what is whatsapp?
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gRegor` (for Loqi)
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Loqi yeah!
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bret goodnight!
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Loqi sweet dreams
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bnvk I swear, if i have to update one more name, bio, and location field in a website with "social" features- I'm going to go postal
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bnvk this shouldn't be that hard
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bnvk all I should need to input in a website is my URL
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KartikPrabhu bvnk: what kind of website?
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KartikPrabhu blogs?
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bear has successfully stored and retrieved a session cookie
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bear next is to make a /mention page that allows for login
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KartikPrabhu bear: so you can privately view received mentions?
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bear it's the start of my micropub stuff
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KartikPrabhu neat
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bear if you view it without logging in you get a source, target url prompt
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bear if you are logged in, then it will add any data it finds from the domain you used to allow notes from people
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bear i'm just using this to learn frontend stuff that the php and nodejs devs already know :)
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bnvk KartikPrabhu: blogs, forums, social media sites, apps, etc...
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bnvk I just recently made a profile on a Discourse site
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KartikPrabhu hmmm
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KartikPrabhu yeah making and remaking profiles is annoying
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bnvk and then updating of them, which never happens
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bnvk Gravatar probably has the largest user base
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bnvk that kind of tackles this problem
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bear this was, IMO, the promise of openid
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bear I give all my deets once, the site can retrieve them as long as I authorize the site
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bnvk yes
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bnvk failed though, why?
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bnvk not enough people owned sites?
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bear because of the backend work required on the services side is what I think
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bnvk the services digesting the openID data?
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bear it was not simple code to make your auth setup talk to openid as a delegate
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bnvk yes
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bear and the big openid sites charged money for that priv
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bnvk right
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bnvk hrm
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bear that's why I love indieauth
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bear with a site using it, I can manage what scope of personal info they can retrieve
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bear something like "scope: public" or "scope: friend" or ...
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bear but even indieauth doesn't have that feature yet
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bear is dreaming big ideas
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bnvk hehe
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bnvk what I'm seeing is something that turns the MF h-card data on my website (name, bio, location, etc…) into a REST endpoint that these services can easily add to their setup flow
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bear yep - own-your-own-gravatar like setup
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bnvk exactly
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bear and it could be a /about?format=json
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bnvk yes
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bear and if you give it ?format=json&token=foo it would check the scope and give more/less data
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bear I need to add that to my todo list for my static site
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bear have my helper flask app read /about for the public parts and then read a secure file for the private parts when it gets an auth'd request
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bear (or generate the public /about.html from the private data)
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gRegor` Good ideas. I like it.
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bear.im edited /dainin (+133) "add about.html idea to todo list" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu eh... the services should just use my mf2 to get whatever format they want
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bear KartikPrabhu - I kinda almost agree
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bear the reason it's not 100% agree is that the output from mf2 is not profile-data-requestor friendly
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KartikPrabhu then why is JSON. I thought mf2 output looked exactly like JSON
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bear I was using ?format=json to enable it to be a RESTful endpoint
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bear now the code that serves that endpoint *could* use mf2 parsing to get the data
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KartikPrabhu still doesn't know how RESTful is diff from just a webpage
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bear I see your point, I'm just thinking about what I had to do to extract fullname and url from the h-card result of mf2 for the webmention handling code
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KartikPrabhu so that is a drawback of mf2?
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bear to me requiring them to do for item in mf2data['items']:\n if 'type' in item and 'h-card' in item['type']: … is not consumer friendly
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bear maybe what we need to do is to give a library that allows for: returnProfileData("http://bear.im")
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KartikPrabhu yes
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bear ok, I see your point now
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KartikPrabhu that would be useful for services and also indiweb people
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bear goes to add that to the ronkyuu todo list
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KartikPrabhu I mean we already do that for received mentions
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bear nods
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bear.im edited /ronkyuu (+86) "add todo item for Profile/h-card helper item" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu bear: example: https://github.com/kylewm/mf2util/blob/master/mf2util/util.py#L107
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bear yep - that fits what I was just thinking of
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bear adds that link for code to "borrow"
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bear.im edited /ronkyuu (+124) "author/h-card discovery code link" (view diff)
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bear.im edited /ronkyuu (+0) "wiki syntax hates me" (view diff)
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bear thanks KartikPrabhu for bringing back around on that thought stream
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bear goes back to working on his fancy web comment form
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KartikPrabhu :)
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aaronpk good evening indiewebcamp!
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snarfed hey aaronpk!
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snarfed i'm guessing you saw my update about that cron job
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snarfed (again, lowest possible priority, and i'm fine with it running. i just have too much free time :P)
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aaronpk yeah! super weird
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KartikPrabhu anyone publishes multiple-photos as photo post or notes?
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aaronpk no but I reaaaaly want to
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KartikPrabhu I see. heres mine: https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/owen-engine
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aaronpk nice!
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kartikprabhu.com edited /photos (+79) "moved myself to notes with photo" (view diff)
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: i do, but i don't mark them up as u-photo yet
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snarfed e.g. https://snarfed.org/2014-07-17_conservatory-of-flowers
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: here's an idea for bridgy... use the entire list of u-photo entries as photo POSSE candidates to silos. Pick the first n photos if a silo limits
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: true!
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KartikPrabhu specially since twitter refuses to upload my pictures :P
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snarfed lol, sigh
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KartikPrabhu i think their JS is broken and FF does not accept it... but oh well
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tantek.com created /pushup (+21) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /badges (+21) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /pushups (+1308) "stub with indieweb examples aaronpk and barnaby, and Silo example Beeminder" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /exercise (+74) "add emoji icon" (view diff)
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werd.io uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:Known-logo.png]]""
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tantek.com edited /exercise (+447) "using micropub" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /pushups (+24) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ using micropub" (view diff)
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werd.io edited /Known (+37) (view diff)
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werd.io edited /Known (+15) (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /p3k (+12) "/* Pushups */ linky" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /Pushups (+21) "r" (view diff)
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KevinMarks_ reads bear bnvk and KartikPrabhu talking about profile standards and sighs an OpenSocial/PortableContacts/hCard sigh
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snarfed sheesh KevinMarks. don't you know standards are like SO BOOORRING
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snarfed (kidding!)
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KevinMarks_ you know what I wish? That every damn programming teaching book didn't use a person object with completely arbitrary filed names pulled out of some programmer's head as an example
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks_ hey I brought them around to mf2 :)
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KevinMarks_ mf2++
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Loqi mf2 has 1 karma
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KartikPrabhu mainly because I don't want to publish alternate versions of my site stuff
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KartikPrabhu just having Atom sometimes messes it up
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snarfed KevinMarks++
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Loqi KevinMarks has 43 karma
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snarfed i have to admit, i think the "sidefile" hate is overstated
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snarfed obviously you only want to store one canonical source of each piece of data
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snarfed DRY for data is important
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snarfed but generating multiple "views" of that data, in different formats, doesn't seem so bad to me
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snarfed (having said that, i'm really not looking to debate it :P)
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: I changed category to tags in my backend and forgot to update Atom code and it failed :P
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: sounds like a good argument for unit (and integration) tests
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snarfed not necessarily an argument against emitting more than one format
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KartikPrabhu if only I knew how to write those :P
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snarfed eh it's all code. there's no magic
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: fwiw, adopting automated tests is one of the single biggest impact techniques i've ever seen on my personal career on software engineeering
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snarfed before them, i lived in constant, low grade background fear that every change i made would break something. unit tests freed me from that fear. massive difference
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KevinMarks It's not so much side file as filtered that is needed. The size of the json blob that twitter now drops for a tweet is crazy, for example. Being able to just get the fields you were using would be a win
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: the only other things i can think of that had as big an impact for me personally were truly grokking and accepting YAGNI, distributed systems, and async and non-blocking I/O. anyway, </tangent>
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snarfed KevinMarks: i guess. but twitter (and other similar) api calls only return a small constant number of results. i don't know that projections really matter that much. constant factor difference, sure, but i doubt it's the bottleneck for many people
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snarfed standards though, i'm totally with you on those. easy to make fun of, but they're critical
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tantek good evening #indiewebcamp!
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tantek LOL bnvk: "I swear, if i have to update one more name, bio, and location field in a website with "social" features- I'm going to go postal"
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tantek !tell bnvk, simple answer: name for name, your personal URL for bio, leave the rest blank
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek I did it again :(
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tantek yo
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tantek and apparently "simple" is someone actually signed into freenode
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tantek !tell bear,KartikPrabhu the whole get profile info thing is fairly accessible from barnaby's implementation of /authorship
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek reads snarfed's apologisms for sidefiles ;)
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snarfed tantek: oh man please don't
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bear is that the authorship discovery stuff that KartikPrabhu pointed me at?
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Loqi bear: tantek left you a message 1 minute ago: the whole get profile info thing is fairly accessible from barnaby's implementation of /authorship
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KartikPrabhu tantek: yeah... any implementation of /authorship should be fine
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Loqi KartikPrabhu: tantek left you a message 1 minute ago: the whole get profile info thing is fairly accessible from barnaby's implementation of /authorship
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KartikPrabhu bear: that was kylewm's implementation. possibly barnaby has another one in php
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bear k, I have a lot of trouble reading php code for some reason
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bear just doesn't make any sense to me most of the time
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bear i'm getting better at it tho after having implemented web stuff with flask
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tantek snarfed, you're awfully good at this, e.g.: http://gregorlove.com/notes/2014/07/18/1/ :)
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tantek bear I have a problem with most PHP code too. Because it uses classes, and objects, and methods and stuff when simple functions would do just fine.
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bear nods
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snarfed tantek: agreed, i guess i do occasionally provoke and then try to duck flame wars :P
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tantek snarfed, just saying, not just me that's noticed ;)
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snarfed to be fair though, that quote started from someone extrapolating a bridgy feature, not from something i said :P
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tantek welcome back glennjones
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tantek was the source to identengine ever shared on github?
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glennjones Not the whole identengine site, but all it parts. Which is 3 projects https://github.com/dharmafly/elsewhere, https://github.com/glennjones/elsewhere-mapper, https://github.com/glennjones/elsewhere-profiles
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glennjones Cannot believe nodejitsu hosting is failing to run app again. Going to spend some time and but it on another host
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glennjones tankek also have a much more heavy wieght version of mapper, that I maybe able to release soon
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voxpelli glennjones: ah, that's the one adactio mentioned last indiewebcamp uk that it intended to solve the same thing as my relspider – still working on it?
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glennjones voxpelli yes the https://github.com/dharmafly/elsewhere project is a a relspider which works well and real needs little updating. Its the other elements the mapper which takes the URLs and soical media sites and turns into usernames/idas
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voxpelli glennjones: sounds like the other modules could then perhaps be adapted to relspider as well, hmm
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voxpelli glennjones: do you know how elsewhere saves the results of its crawling?
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glennjones Sorry did not finnsh typing before hitting send. - the mapper and and profile element ongoing updating to be useful. Something I have not kept up with.
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glennjones Elsewhere is documented at http://elsewherejs.com/
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KevinMarks_ glennjones: did you look at sgnodemapper?
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glennjones Yes a lot of the design is based on sgnodemapper and part of the JSON its returns is the sgn- ie sgn://github.com/?ident=glennjones
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glennjones I will try and bring all the code back update and and re deploy to a new host so that everyone can take a look at it. voxpelli would be interesting to look at cross over in projects
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voxpelli glennjones: if not before then I will try to be at indiewebcamp uk again this year
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@kevinmarks @Pickering @karaswisher @pmarca centralising creates Fragility debt: http://epeus.blogspot.com/2012/12/the-antifragility-of-web.html leading to site deaths: http://indiewebcamp.com/site-deaths (twitter.com/_/status/494014798204391424)
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tantek nicely done kevinmarks
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KevinMarks_ pmarca's 3 levels post isn't that wrong: https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/494014018374209536
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@kevinmarks @karaswisher @pmarca Ning's a Level 3 Platform you know, not just Level 2 like Facebook http://web.archive.org/web/20071018161644/http://blog.pmarca.com/2007/09/the-three-kinds.html (twitter.com/_/status/494014018374209536)
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KevinMarks_ but misses level 4, the interoperable web
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bear.im edited /dainin (+100) "added aritlcle page webmention submit form" (view diff)
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@communityred Web.mention, la aplicación para #monitorizar menciones http://oscarsanfuentes.blogspot.com.es/2014/07/webmention-la-aplicacion-para.html vía @OscarSanFuentes (twitter.com/_/status/494022172948856832)
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Lolo Hi
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Lolo are you sex me now pleas
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KevinMarks_ o_O
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tantek.com created /indentengine (+756) "stub" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu ultimate trolling/spamming!
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KevinMarks_ me or Lolo?
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bear.im edited /dainin (+65) "added /note support with auth optional" (view diff)
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bear ok, enough hacking for tonight
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bear I have the groundwork for a micropub solution for my static site - now to get some html forms worked up to allow me to use this new framework
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voxpelli bear: intriguing
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bear it's a flask app that does the dynamic parts
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bear and writes to a file currently
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KartikPrabhu bear: is it a micropub publisher or an endpoint?
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bear it's neither right now to be honest but will be both (I thiink)
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KartikPrabhu ooo cool
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bear because I want to use it to post my own notes/articles
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KevinMarks_ what's a good wiki or wiki-alike for people who are used to Word rather than wikisyntax?
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voxpelli bear: for any specific static site framework like Jekyll?
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bear voxpelli - yea, I'm trying to make it even driven - right now it's very much geared to my site, but the flask side doesn't care about how the site is setup
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bear everything is currently going to redis db
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bear or flat file
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bear KevinMarks_- I don't know of any that take word docs directly - most use WordToWiki to convert them
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KevinMarks_ maybe Quip
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bear tho google is hinting at codeBeamer as supporting it directly - but I don't think that's a standalone wiki
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KevinMarks_ the challenge is the ease of creating between-page links
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bear yea, upload word doc to quip - quip returns wiki syntax
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voxpelli bear: we should probably eventually create some kind of standalone page for http://indiewebcamp.com/web_hosting#Static_domain_hosting to document all tools for static pages – I don't think there's any such page yet
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bear voxpelli - good point. i've been hesitant to suggest anything i've written so far because it's got such a small feature set and works for me only with some hand-holding
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bear i've been backfilling in features as I need them
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voxpelli bear: everything is a work in progress ;) my webmention endpoint for static sites as well
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bear KevinMarks_ - MeidaWiki has a WordToWiki.bas script that it can use to help people convert
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bear s/MeidaWiki/MediaWiki/
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Loqi bear meant to say: KevinMarks_ - MediaWiki has a WordToWiki.bas script that it can use to help people convert
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bear voxpelli - true :) - my /webmention just graduated to also allowing a <form> on each article to be able to POST to it for others to manually add mentions
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bear i've been torn between moving my generation code to the server and triggering it there or having the /webmention code create a new file and have a listener script discover/inotify it
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voxpelli I'm just embedding everything through javascript
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bear ah
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bear i'm working towards a javascript free solution
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voxpelli yeah, that's much nicier
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bear if i'm honest with myself, I'm going this route just because i really don't like javascript :)
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voxpelli I'm coding everything in Node.js so I guess it's the opposite for me ;)
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bear plus it's a good challenge for me to get better with my python flask skills
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bear nods
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KevinMarks_ I like both in their way
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bear a goal, and i'm not sure how to implement it just yet, for me is to make this helper flask app work off of a subdomain
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bear so it could be seperate from the main site, generate updates for it and then push it
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bear but I first have to get the flows down and secure and then have them audited by our security team
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bear before trying anything fancy
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bear wanders off to sleep - 0500 is almost morning ;)
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@robert_dyda @PetraGregorova I vouched for you in #frontend developer and #indieweb https://connect.me/gregorova #connectme (twitter.com/_/status/494063422368014336)
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Loqi bnvk: tantek left you a message 5 hours, 15 minutes ago: answer: name for name, your personal URL for bio, leave the rest blank
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@brennannovak @philsturgeon have you heard about that lil corner of the web called the #IndieWeb ? Come build and open & free web :) (twitter.com/_/status/494070870504378368)
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alpower.com edited /2014/UK/Guest_List (+608) "/* Creators */" (view diff)
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@alpower looking forward to @IndieWebCampUK after @dconstruct - exploring the idea of #indieweb and owning one's own content http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/UK (twitter.com/_/status/494102037056217088)
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@brennannovak @michaeldexter remember that chat we had at IndieWebCamp? (twitter.com/_/status/494116829099732992)
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@matdryhurst @JoshAJHall the smart and real problem it solves however is ability for casual blogger to reach an audience. #indieweb will reconcile this. (twitter.com/_/status/494143922080608256)
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GWG I need some topical advice.
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GWG I use a small VPS for testing before site deployment. It has been very unreliable of late. Anyone know a good budget VPS with smaller specs to increase savings?
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donpdonp GWG: ive been happy with digitalocean
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cuibonobo GWG: i also use digitalocean. cheap and awesome.
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GWG Do they have 256mb VPSes? Better look
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cuibonobo i think the lowest is 512 for $5 a month
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cuibonobo though they bill it hourly, so if you don't use it much it will be cheaper
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bitraten http://waveride.at/plans
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GWG I need it always on.
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donpdonp bitraten: neat. 4gb ram for ~$7/mo
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GWG bitraten, you use these guys?
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bitraten GWG: yes, there is a no support policy, but everything works fine
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GWG I like support.
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GWG But I don't expect support for anything other than my server is down
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GWG I guess it is time to visit the review sites
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bret GWG im considering digital ocean or linode right now
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bret i currently use https://www.fdcservers.net but they can be spotty at times
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bret fdc makes a decent torrent host >:D
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tantek.com moved /indentengine to /identengine "ahem"
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tantek heads-up #indiewebcamp folks, today is the first semi-official telcon of the W3C Social Web Working group: http://www.w3.org/Social/WG#Telecons
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tantek instructions elsewhere on that page for how to join W3C and the Social Web WG
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tantek Lastly, one of the things we're using to focus our work in the Social WG is explicit public documentation of use-cases (sound familiar? :) ). We have a wiki page for this, and I've just added a bunch, please take a look: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Use_cases - if anything I've added there makes sense to add to indiewebcamp as well, please feel free to copy it (or you can just tell me and I'll copy what I wrote).
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bret can you listen in without talking?
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bret tantek you could use http://www.tlphn.com for calling in using their sip gate I think
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bnvk is it just me or is everyone's Github profile images changing to blank Gravatar space invader icons?
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bret i saw some people complaining about that
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bnvk oh ok good, it's not something weird only i'm seeing
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bret im not seeing that though
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bret but yeah, probrably something is broken
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bnvk Oh, werid
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bnvk sometimes I'm not either
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bnvk yah, something is borked
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gRegor` gh avatars are loading for me
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gRegor` Though maybe not all. Yeah, aaron's doesn't show up on my "following" page, but it does on his profile.
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tantek bnvk - good, perhaps they will start using the h-card from my domain instead of a centralized gravatar service
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tantek bnvk - please take a screenshot of what you're seeing and upload to indiewebcamp wiki so we can add it to /GitHub#Criticism
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achangeiscoming.net edited /events/2014-07-30-homebrew-website-club (+42) "/* RSVP */" (view diff)
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tantek nice JonPincus!
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tantek !tell benwerd, jlsuttles, KevinMarks, npdoty, Phae you coming tomorrow night too, right? Add yourselves! http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-07-30-homebrew-website-club#RSVP
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@horse_eboris IndieAuth - IndieWebCamp http://links.bmannconsulting.com/indieauth-indiewebcamp?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter (from the link blog) (twitter.com/_/status/494186365542612992)
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npdoty whoa, IRC used as a guilt/rsvp event reminder
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Loqi npdoty: tantek left you a message 59 seconds ago: you coming tomorrow night too, right? Add yourselves! http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-07-30-homebrew-website-club#RSVP
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JonPincus guilt++
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Loqi guilt has 1 karma
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kevinmarks.com edited /events/2014-07-30-homebrew-website-club (+17) "/* RSVP */" (view diff)
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JonPincus !tell mko i've been doing some stuff in node, and leveraging your indieauth module despite its early state ... are you going to be at HWC tomorrow in SF? would love to discuss
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek JonPincus++
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Loqi JonPincus has 1 karma
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wolftune hey folks, any opinions about Persona vs OpenId Connect ?
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wolftune I know IndieAuth uses Persona currently
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wolftune I like Persona
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wolftune I think it's annoying how Mozilla gave up on it before they gave it a real chance
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wolftune Someone told me recently that OpenId Connect is the real future… http://openid.net/connect/
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tantek wolftune - OpenID Connect is laughable because it is pitched by large companies that have no incentive nor intention to interoperate.
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wolftune tantek: I would suspect as much. Someone from Gluu at OSCON emphasized it to me
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tantek that said, if you see any features or capabilities in OpenID Connect that you find appealing, please do describe them so we can look at how IndieAuth compares
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wolftune It was really annoying, he and the guy I talked to from Mozilla refused to discuss Persona in anything other than PAST TENSE verbs
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tantek what is Gluu?
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tantek wofltune could you start http://indiewebcamp.com/Gluu with a brief description / reference of who/what they are?
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wolftune I think Persona *is* (not *was*) a great system and deserves support…
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tantek who did you talk to from Persona?
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tantek er from Mozilla
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wolftune um… I should know his name, chatted for a while at CLS
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wolftune just a sec
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tantek Persona is sufficiently functional and open source to now grow organically on its own
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tantek It may actually do better that way (slow organic growth) than any kind of top-down effort by Mozilla
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tantek if Persona does slowly takeover, you can bet it will renew interest inside Mozilla
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wolftune tantek: I'm glad you think so! In fact, I've been meaning for um, a year, to reach out to you as someone who seemed likely to support what we're doing with Snowdrift.coop — and we think Persona is a great project for us to help fund after we launch
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tantek I see Persona as a useful bridge from the "old school" email-as-login set to today's modern IndieAuth set.
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tantek I have a different approach to long term success of open standards / community efforts than most at Mozilla (or any other org, non-profit, or corp).
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wolftune I get that
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wolftune I've read your site and am really supportive of the whole IndieWeb focus… incidentally, are you aware of the other big Indie movement that just started? Indie Tech (Aral Balkan… ind.ie )
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wolftune ?
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tantek sure, Aral helped host and co-organize IndieWebCampUK 2013
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tommorris and plenty of us are good friends with aral
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wolftune Right on
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wolftune I've been in the same e-mail thread with him but he didn't get around to replying to my personal note
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tantek I think he's pursuing a device-first approach to "indie-ness" rather than a personal website first approach (what most folks here are doing)
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wolftune yeah
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tantek but there are hardware folks here too
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wolftune I'm pursuing a community-first approach… :P
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tantek indeed! as are we :)
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tommorris yep. aral is very strongly of the view that you have to have the whole platform be indie, and that the UX has to be built around independence
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wolftune Yeah, I love what he's doing
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wolftune Snowdrift.coop aims to provide one economic basis for all this important work in all these projects
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tantek tommorris: I believe we already had that focus here: "the UX has to be built around independence" before Aral started his indiephone project etc.
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tommorris the main difference is that he's playing a very high-stakes game (hardware, operating system) while we're just playing around building websites. ;-)
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tommorris and then making those websites talk to one another.
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tantek tommorris: we're doing more than building websites. we're taking an incremental, building block, develop in the open approach
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tommorris yup. the important difference I think is that here, the criteria of success is get a domain, put something up on it, then iterate.
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tantek and ironically, this community has been discussing what does it mean to have an "indie phone" since 2011: http://indiewebcamp.com/phone
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wolftune sure
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tantek there was a whole session on it and some hacking at indiewebcamp 2011: http://indiewebcamp.com/2011/Own_Your_Phone_Number
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tommorris heh, I think "phone" might be semantically overloaded there. phone as in facility to make voice calls vs. rectangle of plastic and metal and glass that runs software. ;-)
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wolftune I actually had no cell phone until this past March
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tantek tommorris: I think the important difference is that we're organically pursuing *many* things in parallel (every person works on what they see as personally mattering to them), rather than pursuing one thing with a private group of people
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tommorris yep, that's very important
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wolftune I still basically don't use it, but it's a used Samsung now running OmniROM with no GAPPs
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tommorris like, I'm interested in geo stuff while someone else might be more interested in publishing music or doing comments or whatever it may be
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tantek tommoris, phone is facility to make voice calls is basically what /phone is about
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wolftune personally, while I want Aral to succeed, what I like most about his project is that he's simply done a good job presenting things and I like his Indie Tech Manifesto and the web design etc. — all very accessible and appealing
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tantek where to address "rectangle of plastic and metal and glass that runs software" we have https://indiewebcamp.com/mobile
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tantek we've got both
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wolftune I'm skeptical about the phone but want to be optimistic
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wolftune Anyway, Gluu seems very interesting, but I know nothing more than what I was told by the rep at OSCON, see http://www.gluu.org/
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tantek wofltune - phones are hard, much easier to document challenges and iterate on them in the open (e.g. on /phone and /mobile and /communication - all root pages at indiewebcamp)
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tantek rather than presume a top-down integrated design
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wolftune tantek: makes sense to me
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tantek wolftune - that's a fine summary of Gluu to start a stub at indiewebcamp.com/Gluu - start the editing by copy/pasting {{stub}} then write a sentence like "Gluu is a ..."
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wolftune Ok, will do!
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tantek thank you!
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tommorris wolftune: yep. I wish Aral luck on the phone project - it's a huge undertaking, and a risky one. meanwhile, tommorris.org is running. as is tantek.com, waterpigs.co.uk, aaronparecki.com, caseorganic.com, sandeep.io, bret.io, adactio.com and plenty more listed at http://indiewebcamp.com/projects ;-)
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wolftune and wolftune.com — but I'm ashamed that it is still a blogger site
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tommorris eh, you own your own domain. that's the first step. ;)
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tantek tommorris: and tantek.com looks great *on a phone* and you can contact me via tantek.com at that page I demo'd at IndieWebCamp 2014. so tantek.com acts like a conduit to my "phone" *today*
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tommorris wolftune: Blogger is "a first-class (if limited) IndieWeb platform"
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wolftune I've spent the last two years trying to get Snowdrift.coop going to help the bigger community instead of focusing on fixing my personal issues
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tantek.com edited /start (+133) "stub as disambiguation" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /start (+14) "start a page" (view diff)
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tommorris on the phone front, Signal looks interesting - https://whispersystems.org/blog/signal/
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wolftune tommorris: thanks for the encouragement. I've had a domain for a long time, and my blogger site is functional enough, but it's not ideal
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tantek.com created /start_a_page (+580) "stub" (view diff)
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wolftune Oh, incidentally, it wasn't "some rep" I talked to, it was Mike Schwartz, the Gluu founder
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tantek wolftune - definitely sounds like you have plenty to start a 1-2 sentence /Gluu page.
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tantek See now also: https://indiewebcamp.com/start_a_page :)
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tantek.com edited /start_a_page (+50) "blockquotes" (view diff)
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wolftune thanks I already started, but will add that stuff
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tantek I figured I might as well capture it on the wiki for the next person :)
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wolftune.com created /Gluu (+90) "started stub page" (view diff)
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wolftune I don't feel confident enough about explaining Gluu or verifying the claims besides starting that, but there we go
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bear just flag it as your recollection - it will still help someone find context if it comes up again
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wolftune tantek: thanks for the perspective, I was getting to feel pessimistic about Persona and wondering if we should go another way… currently Snowdrift.coop only does internal log-in and Persona…
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bear and I prefer personal experience and wiki entries over PR fluff :)
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tantek I think there are a lot of really nice user experience design details in Persona.
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wolftune yes!
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wolftune We love it
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bret persona is great and it works :)
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bear I prefer Persona because it is such a nice UX
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tantek so now that Mozilla has let it fly the coop (as it were), it's up to Persona to survive purely on its own merits, not based on any sociopolitical backing.
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bret i mean, realistically, what is the alternative?
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tantek bret - making up your own email + pw handling
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wolftune so… I think also maybe people here don't know about Sandstorm.io
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tantek what is Sandstorm.io?
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bret tantek i mean that isn't absolutely a terrible idea either :p
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wolftune tantek: that's exactly what we did! Persona + our own thing
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tantek bret - Persona is a direct incremental improvement over email+pw on every site.
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wolftune Sandstorm.io is this startup thing currently running an IndieGoGo campaign… it's about making it super easy for end-users to push up a bunch of tools on their own cloud server
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wolftune reminds me a lot of Juju
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tantek.com created /Sandstorm (+23) "r" (view diff)
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bret wolftune oh yeah saw that... looks interesting
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tantek.com created /sandstorm.io (+23) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /Sandstorm.io (+23) "r" (view diff)
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tantek let's try that again
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tantek what is Sandstorm.io?
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Loqi http://indiewebcamp.com/sandstorm.io
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tantek better but not quite
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wolftune I was talking to the co-founder of Sandstorm and mentioned Persona and she was like "wat?" and then the two of us sat down with that Mozilla rep who was all like "well, Persona WAS this thing… blah blah" and the two of them shut me down whenever I slightly protested in defense of it
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bret wolftune weird...
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tantek.com edited /sandstorm (-1) "typos" (view diff)
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tantek once again...
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tantek what is Sandstorm.io?
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Loqi Sandstorm is open source software project that aims to make self-hosted personal clouds easy as well as offering a hosted paid version for less technically inclined users http://indiewebcamp.com/sandstorm.io
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tantek there we go
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tantek wolftune: yes this community has heard of Sandstorm :)
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wolftune I see!
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jschweinsberg f
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wolftune I was encouraging them to consider Persona, and this Mozilla guy sabotaged any attempt at that. I was not taken seriously
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tantek wolftune: thanks for letting me know about that interaction with a Mozilla rep. if you can PM who they were etc. I can try to follow-up.
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tantek jschweinsberg: ?
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wolftune trying to check his name…
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bret trsst.com is coming along https://home.trsst.com still looks awfully a lot like a monoculture though
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wolftune he was the sort of guy who was talking about whether Mozilla should ever drop Linux support even. He just seemed beaten down by the weakness of Mozilla vs Google et al
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tantek.com created /trsst.com (+19) "r" (view diff)
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tantek what is trsst.com?
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JonPincus is Sandstorm similar in intent to /Indiebox ?
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Loqi http://indiewebcamp.com/trsst.com
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bret JonPincus i think sandstorm is more about deployment rather than home serving
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tantek what is Trsst?
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Loqi Trsst is an attempt to build a decentralized version of Twitter based on RSS http://indiewebcamp.com/Trsst
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tantek.com edited /trsst.com (+0) "r" (view diff)
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tantek what is trsst.com?
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Loqi Trsst is an attempt to build a decentralized version of Twitter based on RSS http://indiewebcamp.com/trsst.com
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tantek better
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JonPincus good point bret
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bret but indiebox has a config management system built in, and thats where they overlapp I think
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bret JonPincus if they do a good job, and indiebox can adopt it, they might even pair well together :)
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tantek bret - re: trsst - perhaps add what's new (if anything) to /trsst ?
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bret well, that feed view
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bret ill add that
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tantek wofltune - sorry to hear that. Mozilla is quite bought into Linux on many levels, including as source of the kernel for FirefoxOS
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tantek and frankly, Mozilla is doing all sorts of cool web things that Google is shyer / more conservative (or distracted) aobut
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bret.io edited /Trsst (+64) (view diff)
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tantek so I don't see why there would be any reason for such lack of self-confidence
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@ciberch this weekend I am spending quality time designing my personal ciberch app #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/494218069305077761)
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@ciberch i dont need linkedin to define my worth #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/494218223298940928)
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PMurphs h christ
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PMurphs oh christ
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PMurphs whoops dangnabbit I keep typing in here by mistake
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@ciberch stop being someone else's product #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/494218614740750336)
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PMurphs love you guys though
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@Johannes_Ernst RT @ciberch: stop being someone else's product #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/494218697636990976)
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@ciberch 8 worst terms of service ever http://money.cnn.com/gallery/technology/2014/05/13/worst-terms-of-service/index.html via @CNNMoney #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/494218747213651968)
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@tomwiththeweath RT @ciberch: stop being someone else's product #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/494219400728150017)
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KevinMarks_ ciberch++
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Loqi KevinMarks_: tantek left you a message 2 hours, 15 minutes ago: you coming tomorrow night too, right? Add yourselves! http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-07-30-homebrew-website-club#RSVP
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Loqi ciberch has 1 karma
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@ciberch my ciberch app will be marked up with either microformats or http://schema.org - advice ? #indieweb https://support.google.com/webmasters/answer/146646 (twitter.com/_/status/494225566115983360)
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@jennifermontes @ciberch The #indiewebcamp guys tend to prefer microformats. I think they're a more organic alternative compared to http://t.co/wD72kQ4KHZ. (twitter.com/_/status/494226629573754880)
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KartikPrabhu ping
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Loqi pong
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bret KartikPrabhu what happened to the marginalia in https://kartikprabhu.com/article/marginalia
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KartikPrabhu bret: what do you mean... I can still see them
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@joshuajuran RT @ciberch: stop being someone else's product #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/494232473207701504)
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bret KartikPrabhu all i see is bridgy comments
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bret oh i see
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bret they are now all under the little icon
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KartikPrabhu yes :)
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bret hrmm interesting
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bret i kinda liked them stacked at the bottom, but I dont know why
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KartikPrabhu bret: you mean all the way at the bottom of the article? or each paragraph?
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KartikPrabhu they still show up below the paragraph when the viewport is small :)
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bret KartikPrabhu: at the bottom of the article
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tantek bret - it's much better with them *not* all stacked at the bottom out of context of what they're referring to
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KartikPrabhu bret: what tantek said... i wanted to keep the context
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tantek yay Twitter: "Internal server error."
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tantek snarfed I know you claim the silos have better uptime than our indiesites, but I see more down time / error messages even from just Twitter more often than *all* our IndieWeb sites combined
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tantek my anecdata :P
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tantek I should upload more screenshots more often when it happens
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KartikPrabhu tantek: Twitter's web UI refuses to upload my photos... just to add to your anecdata
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tantek the public shaming of silos with screenshots will continue until the uptime improves
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@bmann IndieAuth is a way to use your own domain name to sign in to websites http://indiewebcamp.com/IndieAuth?utm_content=buffer6f2b1&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer < I enabled this on http://www.bmannconsulting.com/?utm_content=buffer6f2b1&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer (twitter.com/_/status/494240003158212608)
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KartikPrabhu what a brilliantly horrible URL
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Jeena Hey, me and my band recorded a music video with Google Glass if someone is interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMiIO5H4O98 (it is swedish metal :D )
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KartikPrabhu Jeena: more like Swedish death Metal
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Jeena yeah yeah, details!
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KartikPrabhu :P
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KartikPrabhu Jeena: good job with Glass
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Jeena thanks, we got them at work and I was the first one who got them to try for one week
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bret tantek how did the w3c call go? I only caught the first bit
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tantek It was reasonable for a first WG telcon
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tantek we got people editing the wiki, so that's a good start
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bret i was confused by the different levels of participation, but I didn't speak up
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tantek bret that happens yes
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bret is there a role or account that I could sign up for?
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tantek IRC is fair game to ask any question anytime btw
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bret ok
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tantek bret, see https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg#Participation re: role or account to sign up
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bret ty
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gRegor` The "Invited Expert Application" link here requires a password https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg#Participation ?
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gRegor` Figured it out, I think. You have to request an account first: https://www.w3.org/accounts/request
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KartikPrabhu interesting article by Allen Tan: http://alistapart.com/article/gardens-not-graves
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KevinMarks_ tantek you can POSSE to twitter with the hashtag #askcostolo
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KartikPrabhu what if any is a suitable post-type for posting things I highlight while reading ? like ebook readers allow you to do but indiewebified?
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@b_cavello RT @ciberch: stop being someone else's product #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/494257170842521600)
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tantek KartikPrabhu: do you have example URLs of such posts from ebook readers?
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KartikPrabhu tantek: I do! looking :)
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KartikPrabhu tantek: http://read.shapeofdesignbook.com/chapter01.html##Questions+about+How+to+do+things+improves+craft this is the web version of Frank Chimero's ebook that I am reading
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KartikPrabhu in my reader I have highlighted that entire sentence
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KartikPrabhu if only my reader micropubbed to my website :P
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KartikPrabhu this isn't a /quotation since I am not quoting it to some one, it isn't a /bookmark due to definitions on that page do not allow fragment level bookmarking
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tantek it is like a quote but it is not a quote
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tantek it is a highlight
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tantek which is maybe a variant of a quote?
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KartikPrabhu or a variant on a bookmark but at a phrase-level which is more my intent
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KartikPrabhu my intent is to collect and post my highlights and margin-notes on my site
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tantek it's a fragmark!
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KartikPrabhu ha! yes :P
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tantek :D
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bret Fyi: That sketchy alternate adblocker is actually pretty sketchy: https://palant.de/2014/07/29/which-is-better-adblock-or-adblock-plus
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tantek pretty sure I use ABP - what's sketch about it?
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bret ABP is great
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bret the alternate "Adblock" is sketchy
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bret "If a project suddenly decides to work behind closed doors, something bad is usually going on. In AdBlock’s case, they started monetizing their users by partnering with Disconnect.me, and they didn’t want anybody to notice."
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bret unfortunately, ABP on Safari and Chrome has poor performance on older computers
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KartikPrabhu that is interesting, I remember using AdBlock on Chrome and not finding it on FF and being bummed
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bret The people behind ABP are pretty honest as far as i can tell
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bret the acceptable ad initiative is actually really cool too
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bret i run acceptable ads, and block the ones that still bother me
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KartikPrabhu this: "You should really consider rebranding – the majority of users have been conditioned by the App Stores of the world so that when they see “X” and “X Plus”, they expect that “X Plus” is the premium/monetized version of “X” with a couple of features added in to justify the cost." is what I wanted to say :)
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KartikPrabhu but Palant has a good repy to that too
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bret Wladimir seems really level headed... love that
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bret considering he has to deal with butthurt advertisers all day long :p
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KartikPrabhu alright switched to ABP on Chrome as well :)
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bret i found abp to cause some performance issues on older hardware, mainly in safari
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bret which is really unfortunate
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KartikPrabhu wow just noticed this in ABP: "Remove Social Media Buttons"! Enabled immediately :)
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bret ya its great
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bret although you will see lots of missing twitter buttons, even on indieweb sites
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KartikPrabhu hmm that option doesn't exist on the FF version
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bret "It’s important to note that after downloading Adblock, you are redirected to a page that asks for donations, where the creator mentions that he now does Adblock full-time and relies on users to help out."
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bret KartikPrabhu get Fanboy's anoyance list
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bret KartikPrabhu here are my subs: EasyList + EasyPrivacy (the combined feed), Fanboys Annoyance List (includes Social Blocking)
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KartikPrabhu tantek: thinking of doing highlights as bookmarks with a u-bookmark-of = fragmentioned URL... sound reasonable?
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wolftune bret: what's wrong with Disconnect.me ?
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bret thats not the issue, the issue is that they are not being honest with their users, developing behind closed doors, and are doing things contrary to their publicly stated stance on privacy
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wolftune ABP just recently added "Adblock Warning Removal List" which I also subscribe to, btw
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wolftune bret: they in your comment being "Adblock" right? Not Disconnect.me ?
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bret i dont really know anything about https://disconnect.me
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@katelosse @daevansis I write longform on my own website or for other publications mostly #indieweb. I use Twitter to link (twitter.com/_/status/494265131585380352)
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wolftune They seem totally nice by my vague understanding. Disconnect.me appears to function just on donations and is FLO etc.
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bret Also "Adblock" is a total ripoff of Adblock Plus. It is popular due to the confusion it creates
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wolftune They seem the best of the general tracking-blockers that aren't NoScript or just ABP subscriptions
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bret wolftune read that article
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bret its interesting... my coments were based on that
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wolftune "They" in my comment just now is "Disconnect.me" not Adblock
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wolftune I'll look at that article… the bigger issue I've seen is between ABP and Adblock Edge
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wolftune anyway, I never touch this Chrome stuff. If you like transparency and privacy, you shouldn't be using Chrome at all, so Adblock isn't even something to consider (in the Firefox world)
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bret Adblock edge, oh gawd
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wolftune ah, looks like Disconnect.me is doing one of those "seek a business model" things…
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wolftune bret: ?
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bret its like that fork of chromium.... its some random fork of adblock plus by people who disagree with the whitelist option
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wolftune right
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wolftune that's exactly it
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bret its kind like http://www.srware.net/en/software_srware_iron.php
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wolftune yeah
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bret those kinds of forks smell funny
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wolftune so I'm not sure Disconnect.me is going the right way… I actually listed them as a prospect for Snowdrift.coop — Adblock Plus is a good option too, good projects for us to help remove any conflict they have by seeking to do questionable business models
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wolftune bret: Adblock Edge is very minimal fork, it's just like a different default with the "acceptable ads" option never shown
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wolftune I don't know the exact details
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wolftune I have mixed feelings
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bret forks like srware iron and adblock edge read more like wackos looking to get people to run their own fork... to which they get lots of users
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wolftune no
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wolftune Adblock edge appears not to be trying to do that
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bret but it turns out those people end up trusting some random person who thinks they have a better idea than google, or Abp
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wolftune they just are offended about the whitelisted ads
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bret thats my personal reading.... obviously they wouldnt say that
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wolftune sure, but Adblock Edge doesn't appear to be trying to do lots of other stuff… they are more like GNU IceCat than like that crazy Iron fok
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wolftune fork
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wolftune GNU IceCat is NOT about trying to get the community to move to them instead of Mozilla etc.
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bret the gnu icecat fork is weird, but its a liscencing issue.... iron and edge are more like: "hey you dont trust abp white lists or google.. trust us then!"
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bret and then dont provide any more reasoning than that
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bret which is a shallow reason to fork a project like chrome or abp
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wolftune GNU IceCat is indeed a licensing thing in terms of name, but they also specifically care about stripping out stuff they find objectionable, just like LinuxLibre strips out blobs from Linus
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wolftune Linux
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wolftune I agree that Adblock Edge is shallow
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wolftune I support Adblock Plus overall but I encourage people to turn off the whitelist
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bret i have never seen a compelling argument against whitelisting either.
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bret do you know of any?
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bret articles, blogs?
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bret wolftune re: Adblock Edge - https://palant.de/2014/07/29/which-is-better-adblock-or-adblock-plus#c000747
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wolftune it's easy: ads are dumb and annoying, ads involve manipulating people and favoring whoever has ad budget. I don't want moneyed interests to be the filter for my searches etc
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Loqi [mention] http://abject.ca/la-reclaim-hackathon/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (pingback)
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wolftune there's privacy concerns with Google ads which ABP whitelists
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@silverton painful to miss particiation in exciting #indieweb momentum in order to make progress on other fronts alas, dependant upon #interdependence (twitter.com/_/status/494268777723596800)
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bret wolftune in order to be whitelisted they must qualify these rules: https://adblockplus.org/en/acceptable-ads#criteria
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wolftune I know
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bret you dont buy your way to the whitelist... its still rule based
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wolftune I know
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wolftune but you buy your way to SHOWING ads at all
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wolftune that's why they are ads
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wolftune they are special messages from people with funding to show their message
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wolftune Craigslist is great in that they limit paid ads to appropriate places (real estate and jobs where money is inherent)
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bret there will always be a recognizable group of people who thinks ads are important to their online presence (read: journalism)... unless ABP can find a way to work with them, ad tactics are going to become more and more and more aggresive
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wolftune If Craigslist started having sponsored items where you got shown at the top or on the side if you paid, that would completely change the dynamic, and even inobtrusive ads are like that
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wolftune bret: I *totally* agree. My point is that we should minimize advertising, period. But I agree that some ads are more objectionable than others, and I see ABP's situation as a good compromised practical approach
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wolftune I still encourage everyone to turn off the whitelsit
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wolftune If Snowdrift.coop succeeds really well, then we will have that much less excuses for pervasive advertising
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bret i used to turn it off, but lately, with the demise of http://www.h-online.com I turned it back on and block additional ads that I still done like that are "white"
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wolftune bret: see our proposal for project ideals (not strict requirements, these represent what we're saying are best practices): https://snowdrift.coop/p/snowdrift/w/honor-projects#on-third-party-advertisements
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bret wolftune, have you reached out to https://campaign.joeyh.name ? He managed to run his own personal funding campagn (after a successful kick starter)
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wolftune feedback is welcome, as is feedback on any other part of that page about project honor ideals (and everything else on the site)
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wolftune bret: Joey is a big supporter of ours now, yeah, he's nominated Git-annex for early inclusion in Snowdrift.coop and has even coded for us, committed a couple patches
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bret nice!
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wolftune Git-annex and Snowdrift.coop are both written with the Yesod web framework
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bret im mainly focussed on my own personal projects right now, and Im a broke student :p
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bret right... you were telling me a bit about the haskell stuff
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wolftune I spent the last year basically unpaid working on Snowdrift.coop as a sort of sabbatical
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wolftune now I'm gonna move back to teaching music lessons to pay the bills and not dip into our limited savings, but work will continue
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wolftune we plan to run a one-time campaign like Joey did to get through the last stages of things toward getting Snowdrift.coop really launched