#indiewebcamp 2014-08-06

2014-08-06 UTC
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tantek.com edited /shared_hosting (+358) "FAQ, How to know if on shared hosting" (view diff)
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme, aaronpk re: http://www.shdon.com/blog/2014/05/09/php-why-might-session_start-fail-claiming-no-such-file-or-directory I am thinking of pursuing solution #1 in Falcon, so that it "auto-fixes" a situation like that.
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tantek is there any downside to mkdir (ini_get ('session.save_path', 0777, true)) ?
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tantek should I check !is_dir() first to avoid an unnecessary write attempt?
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gRegor` If you're on shared hosting, you don't want your session save path world writable or world readable.
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gRegor` Unless you just mean for your local tantek.dev
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tantek gRegor`: good point! no this is for falcon.php thus it should handle shared hosting or not
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tantek how can you tell in PHP if you're on shared hosting or not?
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tantek so what perms should I use then on shared hosting?
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tantek bbiab - will be offline reading logs.
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gRegor` Not sure of an easy method to detect shared hosting.
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gRegor` Perms should be as locked down as possible. Typically the scripts execute as user "nobody" but your files are owned by "tantek" so it would require broader permissions to read/write. suPHP or FastCGI can be used to execute scripts as your username, though, so then you could lock them down to not be world read/writeable.
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gRegor` Some options: http://websec.io/2012/08/24/Shared-Hosting-PHP-Session-Security.html
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gRegor` Running the scripts as your user can be a security trade-off, too. If there's a vulnerability in your script, an attacker could then do things on the server as "tantek" instead of "nobody"
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gRegor` Heading out myself.
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@kevinmarks @johncappiello @Brent_Thoma the challenge is linking from the edges + showing the subset you want. Building it up at http://indiewebcamp.com (twitter.com/_/status/496831525984292864)
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@temporaryhuman @evacide if the gig could be focused on developing simple to roll-ur-own #indieweb + mad encryption, might be interesting. (twitter.com/_/status/496834288688824320)
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@katelosse @kevinmarks are there any #indieweb meetups in SF this month? (twitter.com/_/status/496859951588188162)
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@kevinmarks @sillygwailo well you never know if your rss feed is broken. http://indiewebcamp.com/antipatterns#invisible_metadata (hint, it is by design) (twitter.com/_/status/496869147872358400)
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tantek good evening #indiewebcamp!
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tantek !tell gRegor` thanks for the link - http://websec.io/2012/08/24/Shared-Hosting-PHP-Session-Security.html - though all those options are much more complicated than just usring permissions other than 777
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek I'm going to go with 0700 instead and see if that works.
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tantek it seems to have worked!
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tantek now to try a new post on the new server
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tantek and that works too. cool.
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tantek and manually Bridgy POSSE'd that post direct to FB too (since that provides higher fidelity than the Twitter->FB copy)
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tantek the solution I used for http://indiewebcamp.com/PHP#session_start_failed on my wenhost: I did not start a support ticket. instead I added this code to Falcon:
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tantek if (!is_dir(ini_get('session.save_path'))) {
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tantek mkdir(ini_get('session.save_path'), 0700, true);
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tantek }
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tantek.com edited /PHP (+335) "/* session start failed */ add code to auto-create session path" (view diff)
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@jeena @graue @tjreo @ArturoVM interesting from a historical point of view. The public aspects is still relevant for me in #indieweb I think. (twitter.com/_/status/496928420899860480)
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@glennjones @yandle apart from the time to build it, maybe a good #indiewebcamp project, mix @blaine auth idea with IndieAuth. Would need to work on UX (twitter.com/_/status/496931736354185216)
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barnabywalters Just released php-mf2 v0.2.9 http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4XUAQb/ — from now on, I’m going to sign the tags for it (and eventually for all my other projects), so I added a guide to the installation instructions for how to get my key and verify the tag
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barnabywalters I’d greatly appreciate feedback on how clear this is — if there are any security-minded or security-curious php-mf2 users who don’t have GPG set up it’d be great to walk you through the process to find any obvious stumbling blocks/points for improvements
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ShaneHudson Every few weeks I wish I could move away from Wordpress, it is so heavy on ram etc. But there is nothing that wouldn't require a tonne of work. Flat file sounds nice but then adding indieweb stuff gets even harder... can't win lol
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www.dentonjacobs.com edited /events/2014-08-13-homebrew-website-club (+0) "/* RSVP */" (view diff)
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www.dentonjacobs.com edited /events/2014-08-13-homebrew-website-club (-4) "/* RSVP */" (view diff)
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www.dentonjacobs.com edited /events/2014-08-13-homebrew-website-club (+30) "/* RSVP */" (view diff)
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jenmontes.com edited /Tumblr (+412) "Added criticisms section to include DMCA takedowns" (view diff)
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jonnybarnes barnabywalters: from a securoty point of view, would it be ok to run compouser update on a local maching and verify the tag locally, then check the composer.lock file into version control, deploy to production and run composer install
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jonnybarnes or would I needd to reverify the package in production as well?
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barnabywalters jonnybarnes: I’m not actually sure. IIRC composer stores the hash of the checkout in composer.lock, so it should be fine to verify locally and install clean on the server
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@jonnybarnes @dotuk just to keep helping build the #indieweb (https://jonnybarnes.uk/notes/2M) (twitter.com/_/status/497026753941229569)
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jonnybarnes whaa, how did Loqi know to expand the jmb.so link into the jonnybarnes.uk link?
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Loqi is done
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barnabywalters Loqi follows all the redirects
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barnabywalters enthusiastically
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jonnybarnes just running composer update now, then gonna try and verify php-mf2 barnabywalters
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barnabywalters jonnybarnes: great! let me know how it goes
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jonnybarnes barnabywalters: this is what I get: https://gist.github.com/jonnybarnes/82536d28a2007ff84202
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jonnybarnes composer has definitely installed v0.2.9
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barnabywalters jonnybarnes: hrm that is very strange
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barnabywalters jonnybarnes: run git status and see what you get
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barnabywalters in taproot, I see HEAD detached at v0.2.9
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barnabywalters nothing to commit, working directory clean
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jonnybarnes ahhh, well, the root is itself a git repo
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jonnybarnes so when I run git status its complaining about ../../../compose.lock being modified
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barnabywalters oh so despite the cd git still thinks it’s in the parent repo
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jonnybarnes yeah
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barnabywalters that doesn’t happen for me
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barnabywalters I take it you’re using zsh?
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jonnybarnes yup, just tried bash and the same happens
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barnabywalters yeah I’m using zsh too so it’s probably not that
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jonnybarnes ahhh, think I might now whats going on
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jonnybarnes I'm using laravel, and the parent composer.json file (where I've added require: mf2/mf2) has the follwing option
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jonnybarnes "config": { "preferred-install": "dist" }
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barnabywalters ah, so there might not be a .git file in vendor/mf2/mf2
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jonnybarnes nope
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barnabywalters I didn’t know composer ignored .git files when that setting was turned on — I thought it just looked for a packaged version somehow
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jonnybarnes just a .gitignore
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barnabywalters well I don’t really have an easy way to sign dist packages
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jonnybarnes composer will have downloaded https://github.com/indieweb/php-mf2/archive/v0.2.9.tar.gz
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jonnybarnes or maybe the .zip file
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jonnybarnes and simple not cloned the git repo itself
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barnabywalters yep. slightly annoying but good to know
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jonnybarnes so maybe put a caveat in the README.md about needing --prefer-source in the composer command
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Loqi gRegor`: tantek left you a message 8 hours, 37 minutes ago: thanks for the link - http://websec.io/2012/08/24/Shared-Hosting-PHP-Session-Security.html - though all those options are much more complicated than just usring permissions other than 777
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jonnybarnes barnabywalters: you there?
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barnabywalters yup
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jonnybarnes so, I've pulled out my webmention code into its own library which also uses mf2
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jonnybarnes set that to prefer-source
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jonnybarnes and now I get this error:
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jonnybarnes https://gist.github.com/jonnybarnes/9927610b58d37d17ece5
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jonnybarnes now I think the cause of this is I actually have GnuPG v2 installed
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jonnybarnes so the command is actually gpg2
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barnabywalters ah, interesting, okay
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jonnybarnes so for normal use I added an alias to my .zshrc file
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jonnybarnes but git obviously hasn't picked this up
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gRegor` !tell tantek Glad you got it to work. I tend to think it's something the webhost should resolve in a shared server situation, instead of the software creating a new directory. In your instance the session save path was under your directory, but a lot of times it isn't, so code to auto-create isn't going to work.
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jonnybarnes maybe if I made a symlink from .../bin/gpg to .../bin/gpg2?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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barnabywalters jonnybarnes: that should work
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jonnybarnes barnabywalters: it works, well almost, but that warnings just a trust issue: https://gist.github.com/jonnybarnes/9927610b58d37d17ece5
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barnabywalters jonnybarnes: yay! that’s the best which is going to happen without the web of trust connecting us
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Loqi woot
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barnabywalters are you coming to IWC UK?
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barnabywalters if so we can keysign
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barnabywalters so that’s a good test showing that there are some caveats to the verification process. I’m updating the README now.
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jonnybarnes its down in Brighton isnt it? thats a little for away
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gregorlove.com edited /events/2014-08-13-homebrew-website-club (+13) "/* RSVP */" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /events/2014-08-13-homebrew-website-club (+8) "/* RSVP */" (view diff)
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barnabywalters jonnybarnes: if you’re in the UK, then it’s going to be less traveling than from Iceland ;)
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willnorris.com created /Template:willnorris (+108) "Created page with "<span class="h-card">{{sparkline|https://willnorris.com/logo.jpg}}[[User:Willnorris.com|Will Norris" target="_blank">User:Willnorris.com|Will" target="_blank">https://willnorris.com/logo.jpg}}[[User:Willnorris.com|Will Norris]]</span>"" (view diff)
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willnorris.com edited /Jekyll (-17) "try using username templates" (view diff)
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jonnybarnes barnabywalters: I've opened a homebrew issue for the gpg/gpg2 executable issue: https://github.com/Homebrew/homebrew/issues/31392
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barnabywalters jonnybarnes: oh thanks!
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kylewm_ jonnybarnes: just noticed the link on your homepage to /principals is broken
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kylewm_ should be /principles ;)
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@pierreozoux @legocoder @coot_ What do you think? Let's do it in Lisbon? Even if it is just the 3 of us ;) http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-08-13-homebrew-website-club (twitter.com/_/status/497045872778436608)
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PierreO (this bot doesn't respect our privacy…)
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jonnybarnes kylewm_: fixed
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jonnybarnes * kylewm even
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jonnybarnes thanks :)
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kylewm woo!
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jonnybarnes people that backport twitter replies to their site (via bridgy for example), would we not technically need to follow this? https://dev.twitter.com/terms/display-requirements
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kylewm jonnybarnes: http://adactio.com/journal/5698/
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Loqi tantek: gRegor` left you a message 42 minutes ago: Glad you got it to work. I tend to think it's something the webhost should resolve in a shared server situation, instead of the software creating a new directory. In your instance the session save path was under your directory, but a lot of times it isn't, so code to auto-create isn't going to work.
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jonnybarnes kylewm: good post
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kylewm jonnybarnes: yeah, it changed my mind when i asked about using oembeds for reply context :)
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tantek gregor and I keep missing each other
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tantek lol oembeds ;)
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@hecavanagh Just set up IndieAuth in 5m but very much agree with @aral to widen access. | http://aralbalkan.com/notes/on-evolving-indieauth/ + https://indieauth.com/setup (twitter.com/_/status/497050069599006720)
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tantek aaronpk ^^^ might want to @-reply that with http://indiewebcamp.com/On_Evolving_IndieAuth_Followup
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aaronpk ShaneHudson: re: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-08-06/line/1407323451 would you be interested in hacking on p3k with me?
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ShaneHudson aaronpk: I don't really have much time at the moment (never have time!) although that does sound good. Thinking about migrating to Craft, that has a very nice interface and easily adds custom post types etc.
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aaronpk what is Craft?
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ShaneHudson It's not flat file but it is a nice cms
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ShaneHudson http://buildwithcraft.com/
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aaronpk oh it's not open source?
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ShaneHudson Not in the freedom sense, but the code is avaiable and the free version works nicely
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aaronpk huh, they don't even link to the source code, just a "download" package
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ShaneHudson What's the code like for p3k? Fairly robust or still quite hacked together?
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bret yay i convinced the maintainers to revert a url breaking change in jekyll!
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Loqi giggles
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aaronpk quite hacked together, but a lot of it is here https://github.com/aaronpk/p3k-core
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bret i discoved it after all my urls broke
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aaronpk but that's just the core classes, not how you actually use them
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bret im gonna wwrite this up on the gh-paggs wiki
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bret in (iwc)
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aaronpk bret: cool!
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bret aaronpk where can I make PRs for the irc logs css?
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tantek bret - nicely done!!!
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tantek stableURLs++
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Loqi stableURLs has 1 karma
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ShaneHudson aaronpk: hmm that is tempting, but don't thik I can commit to that at the moment, sorry! If I do migrate to craft though I will make sure to open source any indieweb plugins :) So far on Wordpress I've been using other people's
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ShaneHudson *think
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aaronpk no worries
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aaronpk there's also Known of course
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bret jekyll decided that subfolders in its _posts directory were actually suppsoed to assign category (like a tag but ends up in the url) where it used to just flatten any directory structure on compile time
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ShaneHudson Yeah I think both are (as far as I know) still in a state that requires a lot of TLC, which I can't give right now :(
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bret aaronpk, i got gitpub working for arbitrary micropub clients. still needs a lot of work, but it currently works with all clients.
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aaronpk Known is in a much better state than p3k, probably safe to jump in on it
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aaronpk bret: !!! awesome
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bret https://github.com/bcomnes/gitpub
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bret I need a better way to describe it I think.
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@oldaily Drawing a line from @elgg to @withknown: an adventure in #edtech and #indieweb #oldaily http://www.downes.ca/post/62606 (twitter.com/_/status/497056440129826816)
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@withknown RT @oldaily: Drawing a line from @elgg to @withknown: an adventure in #edtech and #indieweb #oldaily http://www.downes.ca/post/62606 (twitter.com/_/status/497057075357564930)
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ShaneHudson aaronpk: You've got me thinking now lol. Would it be alright to have a copy of p3k to play around with?
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@karthi4india Drawing a line from elgg to withknown: an adventure in #edtech and #indieweb http://www.downes.ca/post/62606/rd (twitter.com/_/status/497060554528542720)
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@RikMende Drawing a line from @elgg to @withknown: an adventure in #edtech and #indieweb http://werd.io/2014/drawing-a-line-from-elgg-to-withknown-an-adventure-in by @benwerd very interesting #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/497061742241792000)
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gRegor` waves to tantek
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gRegor` Here at the same time. But I'm kind of busy. :)
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tantek aaronpk ICYMI: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-08-06/line/1407340942
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tantek gRegor`: cool. I'm having trouble following your reasoning in your most recent reply.
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gRegor` Often the session save path is outside of the user's space, e.g. requires root access. If session_start failed with /usr/tmp/ your code wouldn't be able to create it. (And it likely doesn't need to be created... some other problem.)
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tantek aside: interesting (more) critiques of /tent.io https://gist.github.com/graue/0a5b2b1e61d6f080f15c
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gRegor` Basically, on a shared host, session_start should work out of the box and, personally, I would be inclined to just have the webhost fix whatever the problem is, not have software attempt to create the directory.
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tantek gRegor`: "Often the session save path is outside of the user's space, e.g. requires root access." <-- need examples
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gRegor` If the software attempts to create it, it should also handle the situation where mkdir fails
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gRegor` tantek: A lot of times session save path is just /tmp
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tantek gRegor`: none of what you're saying demonstrates any harm in the software attempting to create the directory.
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tantek there is no downsider
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tantek s/downsider/downside
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Loqi tantek meant to say: there is no downside
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tantek and there is possible (empirically!) upside
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gRegor` Say mkdir fails and session_start continues to fail.
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aaronparecki.com edited /On_Evolving_IndieAuth_Followup (+62) "force TOC into its own section since it's so wide" (view diff)
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tantek therefore it is logical for software to attempt to create the dir
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tantek gRegor`: irrelevant - it would have failed anyway
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tantek again. no downside. possible upside. ergo.
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tantek also, I have yet to see a situation where a) session dir does not exist, AND b) software is unable to create it - so if you know when that has happened, please provide specifics (e.g. hosting provider)
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gRegor` Wasn't necessarily saying it's a downside. A preference. If the *default* session.save_path on a shared host is not working, I would prefer the webhost set it up properly.
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tantek otherwise I will wave it off as unlikely hypothetical
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@RikMende what is #webmentions ? #indieweb https://webmention.herokuapp.com/ soon entering the indieweb bandwagon with my own domain #Yay ! (twitter.com/_/status/497064735754682368)
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gRegor` I'm still surprised / curious about the cause of your session directory not existing. :) I've never seen that before, much less a scenario where b) needs to happen
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cuibonobo tantek: that post about tent is very old (even though the gist says it was posted 2 days ago). right now tent is a ghost town.
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tantek cuibonobo: "ghost town"?!? really? what happened? and when did that happen?
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tantek gRegor`: well, b) *did* happen, so now my software is patched in case it were to happen to someone else (or on another server) in the futue.
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tantek s/futue/future
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Loqi tantek meant to say: gRegor`: well, b) *did* happen, so now my software is patched in case it were to happen to someone else (or on another server) in the future.
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tantek is still having difficulty with 8 finger typing (3 and 5)
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gRegor` and in case their PHP setup resembles yours :)
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gRegor` s/in case/presuming/
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Loqi gRegor` meant to say: and presuming their PHP setup resembles yours :)
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gRegor` has/had a tent.io profile and liked it for a bit, but hasn't logged in in ages
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bret tent has a pretty web page
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cuibonobo tantek: the core developers still post things to tent fairly regularly, but the vast majority of potential app developers are gone
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cuibonobo it basically boiled down to breaking changes to the API
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gRegor` I was pretty excited about tent before I knew about IWC
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cuibonobo at some point between 0.2 and 0.3, there were so many breaking changes that most people got fed up
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bret i think Jeena had issues with tent when trying to change domains or somethng
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gRegor` From my minimal research at the time, it seemed it would be difficult to set up on my own server.
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gRegor` Yep, bret. I remember talking to him about that.
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Jeena Not quite, I wanted to keep using my main domain.
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cuibonobo gRegor`: apparently that's by design. at first they were thinking of getting people to self-host, but they've pivoted away from that idea
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bret difficulttosetup--
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Loqi difficulttosetup has -1 karma
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bret cuibonobo was tent vc funded?
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cuibonobo bret: i don't think so
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bret was tent funded?
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bret why the need to pivot?
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Jeena but the protocol didn't let me, the upgrade procedure from 0.3 to 0.4 Server fucked up the relations to everybody and there was no way to refollow because they already followed my domain. The only way was to remove my entry from their databases but nobody had access to the one providers database
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cuibonobo bret: the justification was that self-hosting would lead to technically-minded people eventually hosting tent servers for their friends, but that posed a security risk
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cuibonobo bret: tent currently functions under a "trust the server" model, where stuff is stored on the server unencrypted. so the pivot was so that only "serious hosters" would take the time and effort
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bret funky
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gRegor` lame
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@aaronpk @hecavanagh You should read the follow-up here: http://indiewebcamp.com/On_Evolving_IndieAuth_Followup as well as how the community is approaching... http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2014/08/06/1/indieauth (twitter.com/_/status/497070839062220800)
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Loqi [mention] http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2014/08/06/1/indieauth linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/On_Evolving_IndieAuth_Followup (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2014/08/06/1/indieauth linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/generations (webmention)
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tantek bret re: "tent has a pretty web page" - just goes to show how a pretty marketingy designery web page for a project means nothing in the long term (1 yr+)
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aaronpk lol that 1yr is long term
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tantek aaronpk - seriously
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/aaronpk/497070839062220800/11628 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/On_Evolving_IndieAuth_Followup (webmention)
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tantek scrolls up to read gRegor` re: PHP
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tantek "If the software attempts to create it, it should also handle the situation where mkdir fails" <-- nice to have, but why?
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gRegor` Because "session_start failed jargon jargon jargon..." isn't user friendly
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tantek I'm questioning specifically the "if … should also"
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tantek I agree with "should also" independently
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tantek I just don't see why it is implied by the if
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tantek cuibonobo, gRegor` wow that's a lot about tent.io that I'm not sure is well-known. could you copy/paste some of what you said in IRC into http://indiewebcamp.com/Tent.io#Criticism ?
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gRegor` If (part of) your goal is to avoid issues with other people installing Falcon and their PHP setup being messed up, I think you should go the extra mile and check if mkdir failed and display a user friendly message. Again, a preference. Obviously if your current code fails, they'll get the same message as if your code wasn't there.
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gRegor` This is why my preference would be to have the shared host fix their PHP setup, so your software isn't responsible for attempting to fix various installs.
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kylewm !tell snarfed for finding twitter replies, do you remember why bridgy uses search/tweets instead of statuses/mentions_timeline?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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gRegor` Maybe I'm just lazy. :)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/aaronpk/497070839062220800/497075794452418560 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/On_Evolving_IndieAuth_Followup (webmention)
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tantek gRegor`: I think it is useful to reduce the number of situations where the user sees an error and/or has to file a support ticket. the logic is that simple.
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tantek which means each such improvement stands on its own.
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tantek and does not imply any need for any others.
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/pierreozoux/497045872778436608/11628 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-08-13-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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jenmontes.com edited /Tent.io (-1) "/* Articles */ Fixed a dead link" (view diff)
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jenmontes.com edited /Tent.io (+11) "Fixed location of sample instance" (view diff)
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@npm_tweets webmention-testpinger 0.4.2 https://www.npmjs.org/package/webmention-testpinger A tool to ping your site with a variety of webmention markup (twitter.com/_/status/497088121297985537)
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jenmontes.com edited /Tent.io (+2285) "Added stuff to the summary and to the criticisms sections" (view diff)
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jenmontes.com edited /Tent.io (-2) "Fixing a brain fart" (view diff)
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tantek just got bitten by Edit and Delete being adjacent in a menu
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tantek accidental Delete, no undo
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aaronpk ouch
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tantek the little (v) drop down in the top right corner of a FB comment you wrote
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tantek nope I was mistaken
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tantek I only *thought* I hit delete because my comment disappeared because of JS lag
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tantek and it took a while for the editable version to show up
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tantek when you actually choose delete it does give you a confirm dialog
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tantek "Delete Comment / Are you sure you want to delete this comment?" [Delete] [Cancel]
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tantek of course better would just allow Undo for deletes like that, like gmail does
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@benwerd Detail from a whiteboard. #edtech #indieweb https://twitter.com/benwerd/status/497105522596659200/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/497105522596659200)
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tantek darnit I really need to just build the post create/edit/delete/undo UI flow I came up with and sketched in 2011
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aaronpk we should document undo as part of micropub
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tantek aaronpk - perhaps after someone (anyone?) implements undo as part of their posting UI?
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aaronpk if micropub spec'd out all the operations needed for that UI you sketched, then micropub clients would support that
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tantek I'd rather see a functional UI prototype inform the design of the protocol
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tantek than attempt to add undo to the protocol imagining how it would work in the UI
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tantek even if such imagining is/was/were my own sketches
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aaronpk i'm trying to not add any further post management UI to p3k right now, instead building those UIs as separate services that communicate via micropub
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tantek I too am not adding any (further) post (***) UI to Falcon, instead building support for more publishing features to replace my Twitter use-cases.
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cuibonobo tantek: would that UI sketch happen to live somewhere? I can't find it on the wiki
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tantek cuibonobo: unfortunately only in old tattered paper form, before I got super-thorough about putting everything on the wiki :/
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tantek has a lot to backfill :/
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cuibonobo hehe
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tantek I'm trying to add to the wiki whenever a) I get something new to implement, or b) as I implement/fix something (anything)
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tantek hence my attempts to document the /PHP session config struggles
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Loqi snarfed: kylewm left you a message 2 hours, 10 minutes ago: for finding twitter replies, do you remember why bridgy uses search/tweets instead of statuses/mentions_timeline?
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snarfed kylewm: ah yes. tl;dr: finding full tweet reply chains iz hard
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snarfed kylewm: mentions_timeline is great, but you have to auth as the user being mentioned, so it's only half of the story
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snarfed kylewm: you can get replies to you, but you can't replies to those replies from other people
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tantek snarfed, if I POSSE a post to a public email list - what do you think of Bridgy subscribing and sending webmentions for replies on that list?
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snarfed tantek: interesting!
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aaronpk oh man
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aaronpk i think i know where you're going with this
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tantek :D
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snarfed tantek: similar to npdoty's
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tantek yes npdoty is an inspiration
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snarfed there are lots of details that would need to be worked out, but it's definitely doable
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snarfed want to dive into some python? :P
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kylewm snarfed: ahhh thanks! that was a great explanation
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snarfed hey kylewm btw, we can close https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/223 now right?
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tantek snarfed, for starters, just wondering how to best capture this as an issue (or even if it is worth consideration) to iterate on the idea
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kylewm snarfed: yep!
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tantek also as each email reply on a public list typically has a permalink URL, that has to be useful in some regard for post->POSSE->email->reply->backfeed->post
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tantek one could also post a "reply" to a public email list archive message pemalink, and include a reply-context from that permalink
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snarfed tantek: sure! github issue is fine
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snarfed i've used "umbrella" issues like that for big new features before. e.g. https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/10 , https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/121
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snarfed …but this would be complicated enough that you might want to do it on the wiki, and just make a stub gh issue pointing there
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tantek also wondering how it would inform suggested changes to the markup in public email list archives
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snarfed there are a ton of implementation details to work out
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snarfed right. bridgy would need to render its own mf2 for at least a while
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tantek (i.e. it's likely I could get w3c to improve their email archive markup)
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snarfed that'd be nice
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tantek I could try to frontload such efforts to make it easier for bridgy
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tantek and frankly, easier for our existing code to retrieve and display reply-contexts
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snarfed tantek: sure!
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tantek when we publish a "reply" on our own site in-reply-to an email on a public list.
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tantek would be interesting if we could replace this particular email use case (public lists) with web publishing instead
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snarfed totally!
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tantek and treat legacy email list as just another silo/transport mechanism
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aaronpk i'm up for that
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snarfed it's not an itch for me personally right now, so we'd have to find someone else to implement it in bridgy (tantek? npdoty?), but there's a big chunk of up front design work before that anyway…and the design work may be valuable enough on its own
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tantek right - so that's the piece (that up front design work) that I think I can help with
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tantek and we'll see if anyone else is itching on this at that point
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snarfed definitely try to rope npdoty in too
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bret This is great: http://nilclass.com/courses/what-is-a-static-website/
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bret.io created /static-site (+185) "Created page with "{{ stub }} A static site is a website that is served by a web server directly from the file system. * [http://nilclass.com/courses/what-is-a-static-website/ What is a static we..."" (view diff)
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rascul static sites are the best
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cuibonobo have any of you guys seen this: http://hannes.muehleisen.org/Bizer-etal-DeploymentRDFaMicrodataMicroformats-ISWC-InUse-2013.pdf
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cuibonobo "Deployment of RDFa, Microdata, and Microformats on the Web"
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aaronpk why is that a pdf
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cuibonobo academia loves PDFs
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cuibonobo at least i found a version that wasn't behind a paywall
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aaronpk ha
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cuibonobo very interesting results
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aaronpk pdf;dr. summary?
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cuibonobo 74.75% of the top 100 websites use structured data, compared to 5.64% of all websites
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cuibonobo 100
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cuibonobo sorry
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cuibonobo microformats seem to be the most popular
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cuibonobo (at least compared to RDFa and MicroData)
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cuibonobo they have a cool table of most frequently used microformats classes
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cuibonobo screencapped: http://imgur.com/zI8bdeL
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aaronpk vcard is most popular by over 10x?
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cuibonobo mhm!
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cuibonobo "Concerning the topical domains of the published data, we found out that the dominant
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cuibonobo domains are: persons and organizations (represented using all three formats), blog- and
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cuibonobo CMS-related metadata (represented using RDFa and Microdata), navigational metadata
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cuibonobo (represented using RDFa and Microdata), product data (represented using all three
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cuibonobo formats), and event data (represented using a Microformat)"
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cuibonobo it's weird that microformats are used more than RDFa or Microdata, yet they are primarily only used for people and events
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cuibonobo "Concerning the structural richness of the published data, we found out that many websites only use a small set of rather generic properties to describe entities."
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cuibonobo i suppose microformats2 puts a kink in this data. i'd love to see data on uF1 vs uF2 adoption
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tantek cuibonobo: uf1 has a huge headstart
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tantek and it's been the easiest thing to deploy to get rich snippets in google et al since 2009
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tantek rdfa support was claimed but not actually supported for many months (maybe late 2009 or early 2010). and no microdata support til 2011. so they're obviously going to be way behind.
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techlifeweb !tell snarfed Look's like you are getting around the brid.gy quirk "incoming webmentions come from me" on your site. How? Template code?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek we don't know if/when google et al will (or is) parsing uf2. they've expressed interest in various channels due to the simpler parsing model and canonical JSON/data output of uf2 (makes it quite easy for them to add support)
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cuibonobo tantek: oh! i didn't mean search engines. i meant people actually using them on their websites.
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cuibonobo given that, say, they visited the microformats years ago and haven't since
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cuibonobo or they're looking at an old blog post or something
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tantek cuibonobo: sure, I just meant search engines as one driver responsible for some of the disparities you're seeing
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tantek the open web crawls have shown similar results
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tantek even recent crawls show microformats as far more used than all others put together
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tantek easier, lots of resources, and there happens to be a community of helpful folks
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tantek with the others, not so much
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kylewm techlifeweb: that's an issue with wordpress.com (and Disqus and Blogger), snarfed's WP is self-hosted
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cuibonobo tantek: yeah, the paper i was reading shows a very wide microformats adoption and it's from 2013
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cuibonobo but the class names they were looking at were for microformats1, which got me to wondering
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mlinksva_ i'd love to see uf2 data too. i looked to see if in latest webdatacommons extract and no. i believe path to get there would be to add uf2 parser to any23 there's an open issue https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/ANY23-207
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techlifeweb kylewm: I'm self hosted too and I have the issue
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kylewm techlifeweb: link?
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kylewm sorry
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kylewm +.com
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kylewm got it
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techlifeweb kylewm: http://techlifeweb.com/spent-weekend-beginning-move-techlifeweb-com-world-indieweb/
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tantek thanks mlinksva - do you have the ability to comment on that issue?
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Loqi snarfed: techlifeweb left you a message 8 minutes ago: Look's like you are getting around the brid.gy quirk "incoming webmentions come from me" on your site. How? Template code?
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snarfed techlifeweb: looks like you're on self-hosted wordpress? not wp.com?
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tantek mlinksva: even if you could just add a link to current uf2 parser libraries that would be a big help: http://microformats.org/wiki/parsers#microformats2_parsers
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techlifeweb snarfed: yes, self hosted.
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snarfed if so, use pfefferle's plugins (e.g. the indieweb bundle) to handle incoming webmentions instead of bridgy
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snarfed (todo for me, bridgy should do a better job of warning you about this)
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kylewm oh fascinating, you can sign up as a wordpress.com user even if you self-host?
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kylewm sorry, sign up to bridgy's wordpress.com stuff
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techlifeweb snarfed: thanks. I had them then removed them because bridgy was saying my webmention endpoint was wrong
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techlifeweb kylewm: yes if you have jetpack
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cuibonobo tantek, mlinksva: i created an account so i could watch the issue. i can go ahead and add the link as well.
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tantek thanks cuibonobo!
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snarfed techlifeweb: thanks for the nudge. https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/256
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cuibonobo oh! haha. mlinksva posted as well
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mlinksva heh
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cuibonobo mlinksva: i did not realize you were Mike Linksvayer!! I follow your blog and really love your copyright stuff. It has been a huge influence on me!
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cuibonobo gushes
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mlinksva cuibonobo: thanks!
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techlifeweb snarfed: no problem. pfefferle was mentioned somewhere along the line as I was setting things up and it got confusing (mostly because I'm still wrapping my mind around the various indieweb terms). I've got a Google Doc I'm writing up things as I get them configured in Wordpress so I'll post that someday soon when thing smooth out on my site.
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snarfed techlifeweb: great! or even better, incorporate them into http://indiewebcamp.com/WordPress
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tantek snarfed, techlifeweb was this the problem of installing all the "indieweb" plugins and somehow they conflicted or something?
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snarfed tantek: no. bridgy new user ux needs improving. details in https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/256
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techlifeweb tantek: I installed indieweb plugin then when I signed up for brid.gy it said my webmention endpoint was not correct as I think he's looking for the <a rel="webmention" href="https://www.brid.gy/webmention/wordpress"></a>
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techlifeweb whoops. Missed him.
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rascul techlifeweb you can !tell tantek I installed indieweb plugin...
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rascul then Loqi will tell tantek next time he's seen
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kylewm techlifeweb: hmm, it should've been looking for href="http://yoursite/some-path/webmention"
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kylewm not brid.gy/webmention/wordpress
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snarfed kylewm: no, this is different
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kylewm stops making things worse
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snarfed kylewm: :P nah it's just confusing. this is one of the sanity checks for when you're signing up as a wp.com blog, and we tell you to add the endpoint to your html, and then we check that you did it right
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snarfed we should instead detect self-hosted wp blogs and handle them differently. it's https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/256
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Loqi it is probable
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kylewm how would you detect the difference? check whether their IP is in the wordpress.com range?
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snarfed kylewm: oh man i hope not. i'm hoping the wp.com api tells me
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snarfed looks like maybe it's the `jetpack` field here: https://developer.wordpress.com/docs/api/1/get/sites/%24site/
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kylewm so does Jetpack make wordpress.org act like wordpress.com?
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snarfed in many ways, yeah
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tantek thanks for the clarification snarfed, techlifeweb
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techlifeweb !tell tantek I installed indieweb plugin then when I signed up for brid.gy it said my webmention endpoint was not correct as I think he's looking for the <a rel="webmention" href="https://www.brid.gy/webmention/wordpress"></a>
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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techlifeweb rascul: thanks
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KartikPrabhu but now tantek is here already :P
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tantek :)
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Loqi tantek: techlifeweb left you a message 1 minute ago: I installed indieweb plugin then when I signed up for brid.gy it said my webmention endpoint was not correct as I think he's looking for the <a rel="webmention" href="https://www.brid.gy/webmention/wordpress"></a>
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techlifeweb KartikPrabhu: that's what I get for looking under "t" and now "@t" in my IRC list :P
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cuibonobo can anyone make sense of this "Using microformats" page on MDN: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Using_microformats#See_also
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cuibonobo when was native handling of microformats dropped from Firefox?
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tantek heh - probably needs updating
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tantek not sure it ever was? the support was always through a built-in js shim
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tantek not sure it was ever dropped that is
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tantek cuibonobo, it's been in there since FF3, but not used much except for the operator add-on
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cuibonobo i see
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tantek and frankly it would be rewritten very differently and likely natively if it were done today
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tantek there's been some discussion of updating it to microformats2
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bret ngoldman, I managed to get http://github.com/bcomnes/gitpub somewhat refactored and working again