#indiewebcamp 2014-08-09

2014-08-09 UTC
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aaronpk so this is actually a great example of the first problem we'll encounter
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tantek what is this?
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aaronpk when editing a mediawiki, you don't submit HTML, you submit mediawiki syntax
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aaronpk which means the thing you're reading is not the same as the format you have to submit edits in
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tantek that's right, you have to publish e-content of the raw syntax of the thing you're editing.
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aaronpk which also means you need a way to retrieve the raw syntax
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tantek aaronpk - those aformentioned edit buttons on wikipedia :)
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tantek simple HTTP GET
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aaronpk yep, and now this is starting to sound a lot more like micropub :)
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tantek except there's no auth
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tantek *how* you get that raw mediawiki syntax into your publishing system is orthogonal
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aaronpk so I think the same mechanism could work for both
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aaronpk for micropub edits we'll also need a way to retrieve the raw post content
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tantek I can click the "edit" link on indiewebcamp, or even "view source" to get a textarea with the source
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aaronpk isn't there already a rel=edit link on all the MW pages?
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tantek then I can select all
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tantek copy
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tantek go to my own flat storage text file
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tantek paste
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tantek and wrap it in an e-content
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tantek and edit it as I would have edited the textarea on wikipedia
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tantek except this time when I save to my server it publishes an *edit* post on *my* site
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tantek then I send the webmention
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tantek done
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aaronpk makes sense
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aaronpk shouldn't you also publish the date of the thing you're editing? so that someone looking at your post has a way to know what changes you're making?
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aaronpk since you're not publishing a diff, you're publishing the full new version
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tantek the "the date of the thing you're editing" is part of the permalink on wikipedia to a version
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tantek so you have to do a u-edit-of *of* *that* permalink
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aaronpk hm so your "u-edit-of" would be a version permalink?
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tantek it must be
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aaronpk that would handle it
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tantek because you don't care abou the date of the thing you're editing, you care about the *version* of the thing
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KevinMarks_ so you're relying on the source to decide what chunk you edit in
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KevinMarks_ and it is effectively a PUT?
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aaronpk that means if I wanted to support edits of my posts, I would need to create version permalinks for my own posts
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tantek KevinMarks: the source already depends on that - see above, Wikipedia form UI submits the entire page/section
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KevinMarks_ or it's a POST and the server has to handle contention?
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tantek aaronpk - yes - it turns every post into a /wiki-page
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tantek KevinMarks: no - don't get confused with the native HTTP verbs
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tantek this is built on webmention
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KevinMarks_ right
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tantek the only thing submitted over HTTP is the webmention POST to endpoint and two URLs (source, target)
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aaronpk we don't need different HTTP verbs for it since mediawiki already does it with GET/POST via HTML
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KevinMarks_ does webmention normally send text in POST?
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tantek aaronpk - and before wikipedia supports receiving webmentions, we could add support to Bridgy Publish to accept the webmention of an edit, and then perform a form submission to Wikipedia on behalf of us
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tantek KevinMarks: nothing is being sent in text
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tantek it's all in the e-content of the actual HTML post permalink
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aaronpk KevinMarks_: webmention doesn't ever include any content, just URLs
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KevinMarks_ right, thats why I was confused. The source is the replacement content?
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tantek so we could a) get this to work on indiewebcamp mediawiki, and then b) build a webmention->mediawiki proxy
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tantek KevinMarks: no the source is a URL to an edit post
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tantek that /edit post has an e-content which has the new raw syntax replacement
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KevinMarks_ right, that's what I meant. Got it now
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tantek aaronpk - this is why I want to try this with the mediawiki use-case first before trying to make it happen for editing our own posts
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tantek mediawiki has versions for pages already
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tantek our posts don't
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tantek (have versions)
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tantek (that I know of anyway)
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KevinMarks_ mine do in git
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tantek interesting
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KevinMarks_ though not revealed on the site
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tantek KevinMarks: example of a post permalink on your site with versions?
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KevinMarks_ the versionsa are invisible on the HTML, which is a problem
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tantek what's an example post on your site like that?
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tantek any of them?
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KevinMarks_ https://github.com/kevinmarks/kevin-marks.com/commit/dfd796bb0ccefbe02ec7cafcc670a9edb108ffec#diff-d41d8cd98f00b204e9800998ecf8427e
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tantek that looks like an edit post
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tantek I mean whats the actual post URL on kevinmarks.com
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tantek http://www.kevinmarks.com/fragmentions.html ?
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KevinMarks_ yes
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tantek KevinMarks: then that page should have a hyperlink in the footer like:
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tantek <a href="https://github.com/kevinmarks/kevin-marks.com/commits/dfd796bb0ccefbe02ec7cafcc670a9edb108ffec/web/fragmentions.html">History</a>
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KevinMarks_ that makes sense
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tantek and here you go for even more fun, put a link like this next to that one:
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KevinMarks_ needs to build a template thing
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tantek <a href="https://github.com/kevinmarks/kevin-marks.com/blob/db004403ae6fcb9dfdb1b6cc316fae98422bb35b/web/fragmentions.html">Edit</a>
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KevinMarks_ hah
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tantek then all your blog posts will have transparent history, and the ability for anyone to go from reading your blog post, to making and suggesting an edit all through the web UI!
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tantek (no need for git command line nonsense)
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KevinMarks_ though the edits they see will be me adding these links...
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tantek you've already done the hard part of setting up git as your backend
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tantek might as well put the little bit of UI of a "History" and an "Edit" link on there
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tantek to make it supercool :)
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KevinMarks_ hm.
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KevinMarks_ I was thinking about moving off git, but this is a reason to stay
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KevinMarks_ heading out for lunch (!)
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kylewm very late lunch or KevinMarks_ is in Hawaii
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tantek aaronpk - this edit "protocol" is only "simple" because MediaWiki already has a notion of versions of pages with their own permalinks built in
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tantek while that may also be a good approach for any random post on any indieweb site - I'm not sure of tying a general edit protocol to requiring permalinks of versions - though maybe that's the easiest path?
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tantek enjoy lunch KevinMarks! Looking forward to seeing you implement the "Read Fork Write Merge Web" on your own site ;)
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aaronpk oh right... my site is backed by git as well, so I inherently have versioned posts if I expose a way to retrieve them by git hashes
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tantek your flat file storage is backed by git?!?
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tantek.com edited /edit (+1182) "/* Why */ Federated IndieWebCamp Edits" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk - here you have it - perhaps the fastest/simplest demonstration of peer-to-peer useful edit post publishing we could do: http://indiewebcamp.com/edit#Federated_IndieWebCamp_Edits
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tantek (might have to use p-content with any markup escaped instead of e-content so the edit post doesn't look weird on your own site)
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tantek.com edited /edit (+255) "/* Federated IndieWebCamp Edits */ might have to use p-content" (view diff)
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kylewm tantek: how about including both the diff and the full, edited version? suspect diffs would be more useful for the implementation/plumbing
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tantek kylewm: by virtue of the fact that the *working* MediaWiki form submission edit "protocol" sends the full version, I say no, the full version is what is useful for implementation, as that's what's currently implemented! (and not the diff)
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tantek so the minimum viable edit post is *just* the full edited version
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tantek.com edited /edit (+108) "/* Federated IndieWebCamp Edits */ permalink must include specific version (and section if any)" (view diff)
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kylewm hmm, ok. if you are including the u-edit-of the specific version of the page (as it says in your spec), then i guess the diff is redundant anyway
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tantek well, they're hypothetically isomorphic (diff vs. full), however I'm preferring the quickest path to implementation, following what's already been implemented (editing / accepting full versions)
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tantek I'm assuming it's straightforward to code the transform of parsing an h-entry with p-content of the full version into the same result as a receiving and handling a form submission with the full version
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tantek so I could post one of these edits as a "note" reply to a version of a page on indiewebcamp like *now*, and send a webmention, except it wouldn't do anything
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tantek I wonder if that would be useful as a test case?
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tantek I suppose it would depend on level of interest in anyone here adding the code to IndieWebCamp.com's webmention handler to process a mention from an edit post
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tantek aaronpk - how interested in this would you be?
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kylewm so my utf woes appear to be the same as KartikPrabhu fixed with this https://github.com/kartikprabhu/mf2py/blob/master/mf2py/parser.py#L62
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kylewm getting a header with Content-Type: "text/html" and a <meta charset="utf-8"> in the actual contents
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: that little piece of code has turned out to be quite useful! I put it in ronkyuu as well :) maybe it should be its own thing
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tantek which site is this header vs. meta happening?
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kylewm yours!
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tantek I was afraid of that
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KartikPrabhu badoomm tssh
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KartikPrabhu tantek: it seems to be a thing that the python requests library gets messes up on
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kylewm but curl and the browser both seem to be able to figure it out
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tantek so my server got sloppier likely when they switched it over
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tantek very odd
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kylewm so seems like a functional deficiency of python
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tantek same time I had those other PHP problems
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: requests is more likely the offender
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tantek hmm - just verified that my home page returns Content-Type: text/html
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tantek charset=UTF-8
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tantek oh snap but a permalink only returns text/html. oops.
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: see here: http://docs.python-requests.org/en/latest/user/quickstart/#response-content
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kylewm oh phew :)
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kylewm thought i was craaazy
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KartikPrabhu tantek: yes iirc I had toruble with your post permalinks too
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tantek sooo - should I fix this now? or leave it as a test case for you to fix your code on yourside too?
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KartikPrabhu tantek: upto you. that shimmy I wrote works even if you fix it :)
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tantek (it is part of the HTML5 spec - that is, what I'm doing is ok)
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tantek (though I'd rather serve it consistently header vs. meta)
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KartikPrabhu it seems requests does not read the meta tag... and so default guess is ISO...., if header has no charset. But then BS4 reads the meta tag anyway ;)
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kylewm feel free to fix it
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kylewm i can still fake this behavior for a test case
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kylewm tantek: but nice of you to offer :)
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KartikPrabhu see earlier conversation about this: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-04-24/line/1398392156
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KartikPrabhu wow that is 4 months old already
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kylewm oh wow, yeah this doc (linked by the HTML5 spec) addresses exactly this issue http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-websec-mime-sniff-03
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kylewm "Many web servers supply incorrect Content-Type header fields with their HTTP responses. ... must consider the content of HTTP responses as well ..."
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kylewm wondering if we should file an issue on python-requests
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: I think requests does its best without sniffing the content... which they give ample warning about on their "quickstart" page
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KartikPrabhu so I feel it is upto the users of requests to get it right
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: there seems to be an open issue for this here: https://github.com/kennethreitz/requests/issues/2086
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@kyle_wm RT @t: The Read Write Web is no longer sufficient. I want the Read Fork Write Merge Web. #osb11 lunch table. #diso #indieweb (ttk.me/t4CU1) (twitter.com/_/status/497920789018984448)
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kylewm KartikPrabhu++ agree with your analysis, and thank you for pointing me to this issue...
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Loqi KartikPrabhu has 54 karma
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kylewm also showing off my new cedille https://kylewm.com/share/2014/08/09/1
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tantek nicely done kylewm! also - I noticed your <action> tags on your webaction links! Add yourself: http://indiewebcamp.com/webactions#IndieWeb_Examples
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tantek (how long have you had those?)
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kylewm looks like since May 15, though i lost them for a while when i changed styles
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tantek.com edited /repost (+174) "/* Kyle Mahan */ note repost of an indieweb post as well as POSSE native retweet of the respective POSSE tweet" (view diff)
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tantek nicely done with your (presumably automatic) POSSE native retweet of a POSSE tewet!
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kylewm.com edited /webactions (+309) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ added me" (view diff)
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kylewm tantek: thanks!! that is one of my favorite things, feels like magic. we just added a similar feature to bridgy
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tantek yeah! whenever any of this stuff just "clicks" with existing systems it definitely feels like magic
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tantek hence if/when we get federated editing of MediaWiki working, that's going to look surreal to folks
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tantek nevermind if we actually get Wikipedia to accept federated edits!
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tantek !tell kylewm,KartikPrabhu fixed tantek.com post permalinks to return Content-Type: text/html
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tantek charset=UTF-8
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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KartikPrabhu cool
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Loqi KartikPrabhu: tantek left you a message 9 minutes ago: fixed tantek.com post permalinks to return Content-Type: text/html
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@kyle_wm forget the Read Write Web, I want the Read Write Read Write Up Up Down Down B A Start Web #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/497996692931620865)
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@jkphl Very much looking forward to my extended #Brighton stay in Sept. — @reasonsto, @dconstruct & my 1st #IndieWebCamp! Who else will be there? (twitter.com/_/status/498022364408721408)
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@reasonsto RT @jkphl: Very much looking forward to my extended #Brighton stay in Sept. — @reasonsto, @dconstruct & my 1st #IndieWebCamp! Who else will… (twitter.com/_/status/498025905466671106)
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@webrocker @pixelbande @andreasisaak > die dikussionseinbindung per externen service wie discuss ist halt auch son bissi gegen das ownyourdata ding… (twitter.com/_/status/498085146801995776)
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@pixelbande @bastianallgeier haste dir schonmal @nemex_io angesehen? macht echt Spaß damit rumzuspielen, ist ein bisschen “kirby light” ;) #ownyourdata (twitter.com/_/status/498095144089174017)
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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bret.io edited /videos_about_the_indieweb (+156) "/* 2014 */ Added Jeremy Keith's video at ITS" (view diff)
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bret good video btw!
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bnvk link?
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bret https://ind.ie/summit/videos/#jeremy_keith_video
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bret also in that wiki edit
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bnvk oh yah
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bnvk was a cool talk in person
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bret bnvk did you talk?
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bnvk yah
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bret :( no video yet
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bnvk mine should be up at some point- I was later in the day and he seems to be posting linearly
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bret :)
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bnvk can't tell if amazing or gonna flop http://emoj.li/
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bnvk I have no idea what sort of "emoji only" username to pick
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bret your emoji name must tell a story
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bnvk true
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bret ;)
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bnvk oh being trolled by non dogfooding dencetralization fascists… the joys
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bret bnvk ?
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Loqi [mention] http://techlifeweb.com/social/logos-for-posse/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (webmention)
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@techlifeweb Logos for POSSE #indieweb http://techlifeweb.com/social/?p=81 (twitter.com/_/status/498205258347470848)
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kylewm
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Loqi kylewm: tantek left you a message on 8/8 at 10:06pm: fixed tantek.com post permalinks to return Content-Type: text/html
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kylewm nice!
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snarfed bnvk: re the trolling, were they on their own domain? or a tumblr.com subdomain?
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snarfed may regret asking
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techlifeweb snarfed: dose bridgy pick up if my tweet containging a link is retweeted? Original tweet was posted by jetpack Publish.
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snarfed techlifewebAway: yup, it should
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snarfed techlifeweb: do you see it on https://www.brid.gy/twitter/techlifeweb ?
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techlifeweb ah ha! sorry, figured it out. The one is didn''t see looks like it was reposted by a private account.
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techlifeweb I didn't realize he had his tweets hidden.
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techlifeweb snarfed: tried favoriting, retweeting and replying via a different accout and it's all good.