#indiewebcamp 2014-08-14

2014-08-14 UTC
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KartikPrabhu techlifeweb: wonder how relevant that is
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KartikPrabhu given that hastags get hijacked all the time
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aaronpk what, they used to do that ages ago
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techlifeweb KartikPrabhu: true. Plus the multiple hashtag events where no one can decide on a single tag
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aaronpk back when you could get on the trending topics list after like 100 people used a hashtag
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techlifeweb aaronpk: they did? I don't remember them doing that. I never use the twitter web site so I might have missed it.
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aaronpk wish I had a screenshot
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techlifeweb oh, trending topics. I never look at that.
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KevinMarks2 Odd, the android Facebook app no longer shows links properly
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KevinMarks2 It always shows timeline view instead
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aaronpk oh actually it didn't even have to be a hashtag https://blog.twitter.com/2009/top-twitter-trends-of-2009
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aaronpk https://blog.twitter.com/2008/whats-trending-and-why by @biz
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aaronpk YES Found one
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KevinMarks2 "Sarah Palin trends every day"
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aaronpk http://pin13.net/GhN
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aaronpk from 2010 even http://mashable.com/2010/03/10/corey-haim-died/
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techlifeweb aaronpk: interesting. Didn't remember that at all. Thanks for the research.
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@webdirections Care about longevity, integrity, ownership of the content *you* create? Watch @t's #wdc #indieweb video http://www.webdirections.org/resources/tantek-celik-future-indieweb/ (twitter.com/_/status/499712823153270784)
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@DamonOehlman RT @webdirections: Care about longevity, integrity, ownership of the content *you* create? Watch @t's #wdc #indieweb video http://t.co/TuWM… (twitter.com/_/status/499712995761475585)
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gRegor` I'm now successfully parsing the brid.gy publish response and automatically setting the syndication link on my cross posted notes. woo!
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aaronpk sweet!
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kylewm gRegor`: nice, I need to add that too
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gRegor` Do you manually add Twitter syndication URLs, kylewm?
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kylewm only for posts that go through bridgy
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kylewm yay my phone has learned the word bridgy
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aaronpk guys I feel bad but something came up and I have to go before HWC tonight. nobody actually RSVPd for portland tho so I don't think anyone will miss it.
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aaronparecki.com edited /events/2014-08-13-homebrew-website-club (+40) "un-rsvp'd myself and pdx cancelled tonight, sorry!" (view diff)
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aaronpk hopefully tantek can fill in SF about all the IRC log changes tonight in my place :)
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gregorlove.com edited /events/2014-08-13-homebrew-website-club (+274) "/* Notes */" (view diff)
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gRegor` TIL 1700 is not later than 1830
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gRegor` drinks more coffee
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kartikprabhu.com edited /events/2014-08-13-homebrew-website-club (+118) "/* Notes */ corrected 24 hour time. added my doings" (view diff)
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KevinMarks where is Tantek?
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KevinMarks is at mozilla with andi, but no tantek
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ben_thatmustbeme thats rather surprising
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ben_thatmustbeme Did Tantek show up?
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KevinMarks tantek is here now and ryan and Karla
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ben_thatmustbeme okay good. When the day he doesn't show up, worry
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KevinMarks well, he does sometimes travel
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@kevinmarks @bradneuberg @MozSF I think you'd like it - indieweb fortnightly meeting http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-08-13-homebrew-website-club (twitter.com/_/status/499729427261972482)
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tantek greetings from SF!
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benwerd is a bit sad that he didn't get to build a "this" plugin before tonight
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @katelosse: I really like having my own website - you have access to analytics directly and who sees it (twitter.com/_/status/499731713069953024)
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@benwerd RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @katelosse: I really like having my own website - you have access to analytics directly and who sees it (twitter.com/_/status/499731796922097664)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @erinjo: I hear from a lot of the journalists I interview that seeing traffic on their own sites is really important (twitter.com/_/status/499731842401312768)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @katelosse: without your analytics you have to track google alerts - squarespace shows me my referrrals directly (twitter.com/_/status/499732028955590656)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @katelosse: I used to have google analytics on tumblr, but they removed a lot of the search terms unless you pay them (twitter.com/_/status/499732186950799361)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @kevinmarks: when gogole changed to https default for search the referer links went away - they show some of it to advertisers (twitter.com/_/status/499732510247755776)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @katelosse: analytics is what has fallen down since 5 years ago - people are slowly adding it back in (twitter.com/_/status/499732629013688321)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @katelosse: medium used to have a lot of information on referrers, and it went down over time (twitter.com/_/status/499732911726542848)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @kevinmarks: some of the loss of referrer info is due to mobile apps not sending them (twitter.com/_/status/499733020388368384)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @katelosse: if you sign up for ads on twitter they will give you analytics, so they're using it as bait (twitter.com/_/status/499733190303834114)
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KevinMarks what's kara? sp's twitter/url?
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tantek Kara is @karaem
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kylewm url is http://www.karaemurphy.com/
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @katelosse: it's nice to publish at places that pay you, but you don;t always know who has seen it (twitter.com/_/status/499733498375467008)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @katelosse: there is a weight to writing on your own space that has more permanence than posting on medium or facebook (twitter.com/_/status/499733687924428801)
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KevinMarks thanks!
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @katelosse: there is something safer about putting writing on your own space first and then sharing it on silos (twitter.com/_/status/499734142922543104)
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KevinMarks (it is a bit weird that I need twitter handles to get URLs, artefact of my tool)
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@hybridjesus RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @katelosse: it's nice to publish at places that pay you, but you don;t always know who has seen it (twitter.com/_/status/499734307653836801)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @benwerd: you usually assign a license to silos to republish your work (twitter.com/_/status/499734457554075649)
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@rjamestaylor Posting on a medium (or Medium) one doesn't control means embracing impermanence. /cc: @kevinmarks #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/499734460900708352)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: the one I have seen is that deviant art has the right to reassign your work to someone else (twitter.com/_/status/499734555809841152)
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kylewm what is analytics?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "analytics" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=analytics
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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benwerd I always think of the movie Cube - where lots of people built something malicious completely unmaliciously
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tantek welcome dotnic!
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @schnarfed: we have seen more of companies rebalancing their terms of service recently (twitter.com/_/status/499735160984965120)
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tantek dotnic, edit http://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people and add your icon!
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @erinjo: I have done some usability testing where people read the terms of service as part of signing up and object (twitter.com/_/status/499735312663605249)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @erinjo: a lot of the founders had not read the ToS before the user experiment, and they then referred back to lawyers to fix (twitter.com/_/status/499735445253935105)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @kevinmarks: there has been a backlash against facebook messenger asking for more permissions on mobile now (twitter.com/_/status/499735987992690690)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: we have hugely upgraded irc logs by @aaronpk https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-08-13 - faces, sans-serif not monospace and wiki edit faces (twitter.com/_/status/499736401119039488)
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werd.io edited /IRC_People (+55) "Ben's icon" (view diff)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: these are the nicest IRC logs on the web - I think they're even nicer than @slackhq (twitter.com/_/status/499736825427423232)
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kylewm andicascadesf: issues here https://github.com/aaronpk/indiewebcamp-irc-logs/issues
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @andigalpern: can I suggest css fixes? @t @aaronpk posted a link to the github for changes https://github.com/aaronpk/indiewebcamp-irc-logs (twitter.com/_/status/499737227447267328)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: I don't add google analytics to my site because I see slowdown on major sites (twitter.com/_/status/499737520360652803)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @kevinmarks: I remember techcrunch taking 250MB of RAM to load as they kept adding more and more js (twitter.com/_/status/499737669942140928)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: we used to use @techcrunch as a test page on mozilla for performance because they were such "button sluts" as @katelosse says (twitter.com/_/status/499737836225306625)
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@evanwolf @kevinmarks @t is there an #indieweb analytics service worth its payload? (twitter.com/_/status/499737900745904128)
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@cconover RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @kevinmarks: there has been a backlash against facebook messenger asking for more permissions on mobile now (twitter.com/_/status/499737974037569536)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @benwerd: when you're getting webmentions via brid,gy and elsewhere to your @withknown site there is a huge analytics opportunity (twitter.com/_/status/499738127347752960)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @benwerd: it would be good for @indiewebcamp to know what pages people are coming into and finding out about us (twitter.com/_/status/499738257199202304)
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@pwcc "[Homesites shutdown is] a shambles, fortunately I saved my webpage and transferred it to Geocities" http://www.webdirections.org/resources/tantek-celik-future-indieweb/ (twitter.com/_/status/499738308939771904)
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tantek welcome andicascadesf! add yourself to http://indiewebcamp.com/IRC_People
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @schnarfed: there is a lot of information that matter more to corporations than individuals, but for writers and photographers too (twitter.com/_/status/499738478046089216)
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rascul geocities was great because so many people had their own web sites
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@nikcub RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @kevinmarks: I remember techcrunch taking 250MB of RAM to load as they kept adding more and more js (twitter.com/_/status/499738708598202370)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @andigalpern: being able to change how you present information, or look at youtube dropoff rates over time is really useful (twitter.com/_/status/499738731986046977)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @erinjo: we've talked a lot about data ownership as the first step, but understanding how people use it can be the second step (twitter.com/_/status/499739114791784448)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @erinjo: what people care about, what they find interesting can be part of this flow and connection to the web (twitter.com/_/status/499739235617091584)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @karaem: you want to see where they are coming from too, so you can see what is effective over time (twitter.com/_/status/499739336745955328)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @andigalpern: I get the same thing for sponsors, they use tracking links to confirm that we sent the info (twitter.com/_/status/499739481654972416)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @katelosse: you already know some kind of information how people heard, but having that summarized matters (twitter.com/_/status/499739617873383424)
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tantek kevinmarks, attribution for "button sluts" is @erinjo (not katelosse), per Erin's blog post http://flatfrogblog.com/2011/08/07/web-actions/
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KevinMarks oops. missed who you were pointing to sorry
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @andigalpern: there was a TED talk on knowing the data about your own body - and knowing it better than your doctors (twitter.com/_/status/499739858987143171)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: Aaron has been tracking himself - see http://aaronparecki.com/metrics for what he has found (twitter.com/_/status/499739977551716352)
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tantek KevinMarks: no problem, fix it in post (github :) )
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @karaem: I like this tool by visual.ly that will make a useful rendition of your google analytics data (twitter.com/_/status/499740220519383040)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: another general announcement over the last 2 weeks is that the w3c opened up the social web working group covering our topics (twitter.com/_/status/499740504020766721)
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kylewm.com edited /exercise (+1) "/* Aaron Parecki */ correct typo: aaronp -> aaronpk" (view diff)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: there are companies wanting to work on standards for this - if you're a w3c member join, or apply as an invited expert (twitter.com/_/status/499740718848835584)
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tantek w3.org/wiki/socialwg
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: the w3c working group is at http://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg and I'm one of the chairs form #indieweb along with @evanpro (twitter.com/_/status/499740981454184448)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: I have chosen to use purely IRC and wiki as the social web working group and ignoring the mailing list (twitter.com/_/status/499741269477048320)
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@kyle_wm #indieweb @kevinmarks Aaron has also written about the *how* http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2012/10/28/1/low-friction-personal-data-collection (twitter.com/_/status/499741314787708928)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @kyle_wm: aaron wrote about how to collect data easily: http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2012/10/28/1/low-friction-personal-data-collection (twitter.com/_/status/499741460007485440)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @karaem: I would like a great photo plugin for my personal site (which is on wordpress) (twitter.com/_/status/499741658817503232)
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JonathanNeal Hello!
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @katelosse: my next step is to syndicate out to silos - I would like to know how to do that more easily (twitter.com/_/status/499741847678230530)
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@OhhSocialMedia RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @t: I have chosen to use purely IRC and wiki as the social web working group and ignoring the mailing list (twitter.com/_/status/499741910496718848)
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@OhhSocialMedia RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @kyle_wm: aaron wrote about how to collect data easily: http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2012/10/28/1/low-friction-personal-data-collection (twitter.com/_/status/499741912484827137)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @karaem: I need to find a good font for my logo too, so it works for cards too (twitter.com/_/status/499742758262013952)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @kyle_wm: do you have control of the HTML in Squarespace? (twitter.com/_/status/499743104338259970)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @andigalpern: you have some control in developer mode on squarespace but you have to use !important a lot (twitter.com/_/status/499743247213035522)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @schnarfed: does squarespace have space for people to comment? (twitter.com/_/status/499743325092855808)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @katelosse: I'm not a big pro-comments person because I'm female and they tend to be "you're a slut" (twitter.com/_/status/499743467019698176)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @andigalpern: I've heard that a lot from women writing in public - they don't find comments worth the pain (twitter.com/_/status/499743701456154624)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @katelosse: I had a post on the New Yorker and they moderate their comments really well so it is less full of hate (twitter.com/_/status/499743908382138368)
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@bmann @kevinmarks Github Pages is free (including CNAME mapping) - a good fit for “hosted” #indieweb - a bit bare metal, but in a good way (twitter.com/_/status/499743912810917890)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @katelosse: I write things on my site that I don't want to take the trouble of pitching an editor about, which can take a month (twitter.com/_/status/499744210204254208)
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KartikPrabhu hi JonathanNeal
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @kyle_wm: I undertook taking jquery out of my site so there are fewer things to download because I wasn't using it much (twitter.com/_/status/499744522021376000)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @kyle_wm: I've been using barnaby's script to only download what is needed for each page (twitter.com/_/status/499744650266415105)
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tantek npdoty was here
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tantek bcc.npdoty.name
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tantek he POSSEs his email
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tantek see http://indiewebcamp.com/email_list for details
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @schnarfed: Nick put up a section called bcc on his site where any non-trivial mailing lists mails he sends he puts there too (twitter.com/_/status/499744928600428544)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @schnarfed: this is up at http://bcc.npdoty.name to see his public emails (twitter.com/_/status/499745024733900800)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: public email list are basically just silos of another sort, so owning our own public posts see http://indiewebcamp.com/email_list (twitter.com/_/status/499745361330987008)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @schnarfed: another thing we have working in brid,gy is posting a comment on your own site and using webmention (twitter.com/_/status/499745616449523713)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @katelosse: the drama on twitter is that guys can create accounts all day and post slurs at people a domain might limit that (twitter.com/_/status/499745852039364608)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @schnarfed: seeing the reply chain like you do on twitter is not something we have working well on indieweb yet (twitter.com/_/status/499745958763450368)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @katelosse: twitter is now the easiest place on the web to go and harass people, because it is so easy to create an account (twitter.com/_/status/499746159829995520)
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KartikPrabhu Zelda Williams quit twitter at least for a while due to trolls
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kylewm yeah great example KartikPrabhu
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @katelosse: people are making ad hoc twitter tools that adjust who can reply to you when and give you more control (twitter.com/_/status/499746811117330432)
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@kyle_wm indieweb @KevinMarks: Twitter used to prioritize people you follow, now it prioritizes @-replies, gives trolls direct access to your phone (twitter.com/_/status/499746926305091584)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @benwerd: the nice thing about the indieweb is that everyone gets to make their own algorithm for spam control (twitter.com/_/status/499746989710770177)
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@kyle_wm #indieweb @KevinMarks: Twitter used to prioritize people you follow, now it prioritizes @-replies, gives trolls direct access to your phone (twitter.com/_/status/499747061529460736)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @benwerd: harassment is something that we are going to have to deal with, and using your social graph is going to be key (twitter.com/_/status/499747147928305664)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @kevinmarks: Twitter used to prioritize people you follow, now it prioritizes @-replies, gives trolls direct access to your phone (twitter.com/_/status/499747254396538880)
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KartikPrabhu is there a reason to think that if having an indiewebsite becomes as easy as having a Twitter account, the same harassment won't happen on the indieweb?
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: we have been talking about this in the channel and made http://indiewebcamp.com/block and http://indiewebcamp.com/mute (twitter.com/_/status/499747543220498432)
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KevinMarks KartikPrabhu: it will happen
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KevinMarks making it more traceable helps but people do harass under their own names too
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: so far the main thing we've mentioned was that it costs a little bit to purchase a domain...
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kylewm admit that is not very convincing though
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KevinMarks see http://many.corante.com/archives/2004/11/06/the_tragedy_of_the_comments.php
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KevinMarks :D
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: I got some mundane things working on my site that I documented on the PHP page (twitter.com/_/status/499748103239786497)
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks: preaching to the choir here. I am quite anti-comments me-self
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @benwerd: the indieweb PHP webmention client uses deprecated php features so it throws massive errors (twitter.com/_/status/499748411076530177)
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KartikPrabhu indie-visitor: hi
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: I started POSSEing directly to facebook using brid.gy publish rather than going via twitter, and got more interaction (twitter.com/_/status/499748628458909696)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @schnarfed: do everything manually until it hurts - then change it (twitter.com/_/status/499748725020172289)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @benwerd: we have themes now on known and I built a new one on my site werd.io (twitter.com/_/status/499748834487308288)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @erinjo: we keep hearing that nobody wants to have their own websites, but educators keep asking for it for their students (twitter.com/_/status/499749338797838336)
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KartikPrabhu erinjo: course websites are different i feel
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @kevinmarks: my son @andrewjohnmarks has an indieweb site now: http://www.andrewmarks.media/profile/andrewmarks (twitter.com/_/status/499750202061107200)
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KartikPrabhu having personal website has an associated cost: monetary, and maintenance effort. I doubt the common joe wants to deal with either
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nicoletollefson.com edited /IRC_People (+41) (view diff)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @kevinmarks: Andrew also made an indieweb comment on my site http://www.kevinmarks.com/ "nice website noob" (twitter.com/_/status/499752773060403200)
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: your experience in academia would probably be welcome to benwerd and erinjo
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kylewm "courseware" is almost always terrible in my experience
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kylewm who manages https://github.com/indieweb/mention-client-php ?
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kylewm it's aaronpk if anyone is wondering
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: of course! I am here to help benwerd erinjo :)
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KartikPrabhu UChicago has a system called Chalk and it is invariably horrible
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snarfed [good guy kylewm answers his own questions]
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kylewm oh hey snarfed
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snarfed :P
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kylewm i wanted to say, katelosse.tv has very nice microformats
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snarfed squarespace++ evidently
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Loqi squarespace has 1 karma
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kylewm bridge to sell you blah blah blah
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snarfed lol
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snarfed filed a gh issue!
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ben_thatmustbeme shudders at the word "courseware"
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kylewm ha i saw that :) but if she just wants syndication, publish should work now right?
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snarfed ah! yes, but as a real writer, probably not to anywhere she cares about
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kylewm oh duh good point
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kylewm she used to work at Facebook, btw
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snarfed huh, interesting
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snarfed gets off bart and disconnects
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kylewm good night, snarfed!
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ben_thatmustbeme off to sleep tonight
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snarfed night!
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Loqi sweet dreams
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ben_thatmustbeme goodnight all
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kylewm we used Coweb in upper div courses at Georgia Tech, if I remember correctly it is basically just a wiki. i did not hate it
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KartikPrabhu ooo if known had marginalia students could write margin notes on lecture notes :P
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kylewm collaborative margin notes would be amazing
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@kevinmarks RT @kyle_wm: #indieweb @kevinmarks Aaron has also written about the *how* http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2012/10/28/1/low-friction-personal-data-collection (twitter.com/_/status/499766110766391296)
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@kevinmarks RT @bmann: @kevinmarks Github Pages is free (including CNAME mapping) - a good fit for “hosted” #indieweb - a bit bare metal, but in a good… (twitter.com/_/status/499766172334575618)
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@kevinmarks RT @kyle_wm: #indieweb @KevinMarks: Twitter used to prioritize people you follow, now it prioritizes @-replies, gives trolls direct access … (twitter.com/_/status/499766289347276802)
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KartikPrabhu tell benwerd any chance of Known supporting /marginalia as a way for students to take and share margin-notes on course material?
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KartikPrabhu !tell benwerd any chance of Known supporting /marginalia as a way for students to take and share margin-notes on course material?
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KartikPrabhu hmm Loqi?
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KartikPrabhu Loqi: you there?
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KartikPrabhu oh well
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: Loqi left the room :(
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KartikPrabhu gRegor`: that is not what Loqi says ;)
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KartikPrabhu gRegor`: that is not what Loqi says ;)
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KartikPrabhu aaha hi Loqi
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KartikPrabhu !tell benwerd any chance of Known supporting /marginalia as a way for students to take and share margin-notes on course material?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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KartikPrabhu gRegor`: make notes for future Loqi immitations ^
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@KatiMichel RT @bmann: @kevinmarks Github Pages is free (including CNAME mapping) - a good fit for “hosted” #indieweb - a bit bare metal, but in a good… (twitter.com/_/status/499775235206680576)
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colintedford.com edited /User:Colintedford.com (+416) "/* For now */ Add subtasks & mark some done." (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu hmm : https://twitter.com/craigmod/status/499783867490791426
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@craigmod Facebook is a horrible place to post public intended updates. Times like this when an "extended" tweet function would be welcome here. (twitter.com/_/status/499783867490791426)
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KartikPrabhu also: https://twitter.com/jenniferbrook/status/499782297290571776
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@jenniferbrook A reminder for reporters using Facebook as reporting tool: it's not an open platform. Your news is trapped behind a log in wall. #ferguson (twitter.com/_/status/499782297290571776)
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colintedford.com edited /User:Colintedford.com (+933) "/* Eventually */ Platform pipe dreams, post type ponderings, CRUD consideration." (view diff)
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colintedford.com edited /User:Colintedford.com (+132) "/* For now */ Task: Mockup post-WordPress site." (view diff)
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jden indiewebbers, some of us #localwiki -ans are documenting the situation in #ferguson - http://localwiki.net/st-louis/Ferguson
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@fdevillamil RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @katelosse: I really like having my own website - you have access to analytics directly and who sees it (twitter.com/_/status/499807511260971009)
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@fdevillamil RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @katelosse: analytics is what has fallen down since 5 years ago - people are slowly adding it back in (twitter.com/_/status/499807649878519808)
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@fdevillamil RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @kevinmarks: when gogole changed to https default for search the referer links went away - they show some of it t… (twitter.com/_/status/499807677858742272)
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@fdevillamil RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @katelosse: I used to have google analytics on tumblr, but they removed a lot of the search terms unless you pay … (twitter.com/_/status/499807709362130944)
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@fdevillamil RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @katelosse: without your analytics you have to track google alerts - squarespace shows me my referrrals directly (twitter.com/_/status/499807728337166337)
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@fdevillamil RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @erinjo: I hear from a lot of the journalists I interview that seeing traffic on their own sites is really import… (twitter.com/_/status/499807746796310528)
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@fdevillamil RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @katelosse: medium used to have a lot of information on referrers, and it went down over time (twitter.com/_/status/499807794892390400)
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@fdevillamil RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @kevinmarks: some of the loss of referrer info is due to mobile apps not sending them (twitter.com/_/status/499807813993267200)
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@fdevillamil RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @katelosse: there is a weight to writing on your own space that has more permanence than posting on medium or fac… (twitter.com/_/status/499808025025458176)
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@fdevillamil RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @katelosse: there is something safer about putting writing on your own space first and then sharing it on silos (twitter.com/_/status/499808058751467520)
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@fdevillamil RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @benwerd: you usually assign a license to silos to republish your work (twitter.com/_/status/499808107615498241)
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@fdevillamil RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @t: the one I have seen is that deviant art has the right to reassign your work to someone else (twitter.com/_/status/499808118512291840)
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@fdevillamil RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @t: we used to use @techcrunch as a test page on mozilla for performance because they were such "button sluts" as… (twitter.com/_/status/499808473170071552)
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@fdevillamil RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @t: I have chosen to use purely IRC and wiki as the social web working group and ignoring the mailing list (twitter.com/_/status/499808643551080448)
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@kevinmarks @fdevillamil @andigalpern thinking about a following model for indieweb comments (twitter.com/_/status/499813510709530625)
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KevinMarks Lots of retweets and faves on twitter, but will they show up as webmentions?
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cweiske will it blend?
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KevinMarks Notes from Homebrew Website Club sf in indieweb form http://www.kevinmarks.com/hwc2014-08-13.html
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tantek.com edited /events/2014-08-13-homebrew-website-club (+54) "/* Notes */ add kevinmarks notes and note portland meeting canceled" (view diff)
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KevinMarks Photo?
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jonnybarnes KevinMarks: theres a typo in your notes
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jonnybarnes "gogole"
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KevinMarks I take pull requests
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KevinMarks Tantek said I should add a github edit link
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KevinMarks There's an emoji for link 🔗
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jonnybarnes theres an emoji link on http://www.kevinmarks.com/hwc2014-08-13.html?
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jonnybarnes I cant see it 😖
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jonnybarnes thanks for the favourite tantek
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tantek jonnybarnes: great to see your progress!
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tantek.com edited /events/2014-08-13-homebrew-website-club (-174) "add URLs, update SF details to actual" (view diff)
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@scott_riley The first person attending this event is wearing a fedora so that pretty much tells all I need to know. http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/UK/Guest_List#Creators (twitter.com/_/status/499825235240431617)
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tantek.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:hwc-2014-225-sf.jpg]]""
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tantek.com edited /events/2014-08-13-homebrew-website-club (-49) "/* Photos */ add photo" (view diff)
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tantek kevinmarks ^^^
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tantek.com edited /events/2014-08-13-homebrew-website-club (-35) "/* Photos */" (view diff)
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ShaneHudson Has anyone had any webmention spam yet? Thinking about making my comment section webmention only, once I move away from wordpress
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cweiske I spammed loqi with webmentions once
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cweiske and barnabywalters IIRC
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ShaneHudson So as long as I block you, it will be fine? ;)
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cweiske yep. I'm proxy for all the spammers in the world
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ShaneHudson Haha
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KartikPrabhu ShaneHudson: I don't think webmention has enough coverage yet to get spam
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ShaneHudson KartikPrabhu: Yeah that's what I was thinking. I'm going to be rolling my own basic commenting system so it was either use webmention, hope a honeypot works or use Disqus which I don't want to do
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KartikPrabhu use webmention :) though are you planning to support non-indieweb people for comments?
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cweiske i'd like to have a indieweb-tech based commenting silo
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cweiske for non-indieweb people
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cweiske disqus built on webmention and reply-to
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ShaneHudson I think aaronpk already did similar didn't he?
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KartikPrabhu cweiske: is that not anti-indieweb? you are taking people's content out of their control
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cweiske people still can reply from their own page
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cweiske I just want to have a comment form for non-indieweb people
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KartikPrabhu a better way would be to use backfeed from existing silos
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ShaneHudson KartikPrabhu: A lot of people will need the step between corporate silos and doing everything themselves
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KartikPrabhu ShaneHudson: hence backfeed and POSSE no?
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ShaneHudson KartikPrabhu: Yeah I suppose so.
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cweiske there is my loqi spam: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-07-02#t1404334298000
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KartikPrabhu ShaneHudson: the trouble is why would someone use your comment-hosting silo instead of just say Twitter?
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ShaneHudson Well people use Disqus and LiveFyre, so there is room for it probably
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KartikPrabhu people use them because they exist at the bottom of posts IMO. you still use silo logins for Disqus I believe
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KartikPrabhu in any case. if someone rolls this out and has success with it then great :)
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tantek KartikPrabhu: I agree, easier to "just" use Twitter as a commenting silo.
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tantek which is why the "Reply" web actions on my peralinks fallback to Twtter eplies
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KartikPrabhu yup that would be a good way of doing it.
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KartikPrabhu or if you want a comment form, use some Twitter API magic to post to Twitter for the commenter and send a webmention back or something
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tantek and then such @-replies on Twitter are webmentioned by Bridgy, and queued up for me into webmention.io
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ShaneHudson I like how Jeremy has the single input field for URL. A manual kind of webmention that most people can understand quite easily
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KartikPrabhu ShaneHudson: lot of people (like me) have stolen that idea from adactio :P
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KartikPrabhu it is a very neat UI/UX for webmentions...
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ShaneHudson And it even has an incentive of "Not only can you comment, but you will get both more content for your website and probably more traffic"
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KartikPrabhu tantek: what are your thoughts on posting fragmentioned replies to videos at a particular time?
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ShaneHudson Oh! Look into Hyperaudio. Fragmentions would work really well with it
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KartikPrabhu ShaneHudson: cool will check it out: it is this one: http://hyperaud.io/ ?
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ShaneHudson Essentially a very precise transcript that relates the text to the audio/video
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ShaneHudson yup
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ShaneHudson https://github.com/hyperaudio
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KartikPrabhu basically I am looking for a good syntax for time-stamped video fragmentions
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KartikPrabhu woindering if this is best http://vimeo.com/102531646#t=270s or use the ## fragmention pattern?
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KartikPrabhu also youtube uses ?t=4m30s
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jonnybarnes bridgy still hasn't picked up that you favouriyed one of my POSSEd notes on twitter tantek
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KartikPrabhu jonnybarnes: did you try repolling it?
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jonnybarnes Polled 0 intues ago
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jonnybarnes no mention of tantek's favouriting
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KartikPrabhu jonnybarnes: could I see the tweet and original post?
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jonnybarnes original note: https://jonnybarnes.uk/notes/2M
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jonnybarnes tweet: https://twitter.com/jonnybarnes/status/497026753941229569
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@jonnybarnes @dotuk just to keep helping build the #indieweb (https://jonnybarnes.uk/notes/2M) (twitter.com/_/status/497026753941229569)
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jonnybarnes see, even Loqi knows it links back to my site
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KartikPrabhu jonnybarnes: I don't see tantek's fav on it?
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KartikPrabhu do you?
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jonnybarnes no, I swear he did fav it though earlier
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jonnybarnes but I dont see your fav either
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jonnybarnes but I got a push notification for it
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KartikPrabhu jonnybarnes: I fav-ed and un-faved it, which is probably what tantek did too
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KartikPrabhu so bridgy did not see those when it polled your twitter
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jonnybarnes 😤
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KartikPrabhu ok here we go first reply to a media-fragment: https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/indieweb-selfish :D
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KartikPrabhu using w3c media fragment spec for time
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ShaneHudson It didn't go to the right time, was it meant to?
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KartikPrabhu ShaneHudson: add a s for second in the end for vimeo. I wasn't sure whether to use their URL or the media fragment spec
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KartikPrabhu I can always change that since no one else is doing it anyway
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ShaneHudson Hadn't seen this video, as always it is great adactio
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adactio ShaneHudson: thanks!
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KartikPrabhu adactio: since you actually have videos you should show video annotations through webmention :)
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KartikPrabhu has no idea how that'll work
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ShaneHudson You could use <track> and have it show underneath (or overlayed) the video when the times are in sync
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@blaine @glennjones @yandle @aaronpk and I did a pass at how IndieAuth could work with my approach. Not too tricky; @aaronpk, do you have notes? (twitter.com/_/status/499866156363427840)
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ShaneHudson Or maybe just a <ol> would be easier to implement
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KartikPrabhu ShaneHudson: interesting ideas. might play around with them on /marginalia stuff when I post more notes on videos :)
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barnabywalters if anyone wants to send a media fragment webmention to http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4SYMoz/ I might try building a soundcloud-esque audio player which exposes the comment in some way
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Loqi barnabywalters: bret left you a message 10 hours, 36 minutes ago: What is the code parameter in the querystring that taproot sends to micropub endpoints?
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ShaneHudson It shouldn't be too hard providing the webmention has the time
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KartikPrabhu barnabywalters: neat... will listen and put some note and reply
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ShaneHudson barnabywalters: Using the same kind of system, you could have the sheet music 'play' alongside the audio
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barnabywalters ShaneHudson: that’s an interesting idea… it might work if I played everything EXACTLY at the tempo specified in the music, but that is unlikely :)
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barnabywalters but I do want to start using some sort of rel-sheet-music (maybe rel-source would be appropriate)? to link from recordings to sheet music
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barnabywalters treating them as a type of response
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ShaneHudson Well, as with the commenting you would probably want some kind of boundaries around the time. Not the exact second.
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barnabywalters not quite an audio comment, but an alternate rendering of the music
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jonnybarnes looking at the authorship algo on /authorship#determining
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ShaneHudson Btw, KartikPrabhu I really like your site, it has a nice feel to it :)
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barnabywalters adactio: any chance thesession.org could accept audio webmentions (linking using rel=source or something) to tunes?
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KartikPrabhu ShaneHudson: thanks :D
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jonnybarnes what is step 7-2 on about? url == uid ==author-page, what the uid?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "step 7-2 on about? url == uid ==author-page, what the uid" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=step+7-2+on+about%3F+url+%3D%3D+uid+%3D%3Dauthor-page%2C+what+the+uid
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ShaneHudson Shhh Loqi
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Loqi :)
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adactio barnabywalters: Interesting. Never thought of using webmention on a community site like that.
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barnabywalters adactio: or even sheet music webmentions (I’m already publishing p-x-abc microformats)
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KartikPrabhu barnabywalters: tried pinging your Lights in the Sky post through your form from: https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/gurdy-lights-sky but it said "The source URI does not contain a link to the target URI" I guess you don't accept fragments in target
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barnabywalters KartikPrabhu: hrm, that’s a bug on my end — I’ll try to get that fixed, thanks!
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KartikPrabhu jonnybarnes: uid is the u-uid microformat property.
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KartikPrabhu it says this is the canonical url for this microformat object
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KartikPrabhu like rel=canonical but not scoped to the whole apge
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KartikPrabhu page*
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jonnybarnes so could it be used on a note for example?
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KartikPrabhu it could be used on anything that needs a canonical URL :)
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jonnybarnes along with u-url?
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KartikPrabhu jonnybarnes: I use it on the headings of my articles on my homepage: https://kartikprabhu.com/
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KartikPrabhu barnabywalters: since you are looking into this. do you think the media-fragment way of writing times is better that t=3m40s ?
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KartikPrabhu s/that/than
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Loqi KartikPrabhu meant to say: barnabywalters: since you are looking into this. do you think the media-fragment way of writing times is better than t=3m40s ?
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barnabywalters KartikPrabhu: IMO the 3m40s is better as it’s closer to the format used in media player UIs ([hh:]mm:ss)
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KartikPrabhu it is also more human parse-able i think. ut w3c is going the robot way with seconds and all that
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barnabywalters KartikPrabhu: apparently today is “find bugs in barnaby’s software day”: http://waterpigs.co.uk/img/screen-shot-2014-08-14-at-105027.png
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KartikPrabhu hmm why does it show twice?
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barnabywalters one has a https URL, the other a http URL, which I’m currently treating as different
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barnabywalters really I should be treating just the host, port, path and *possibly* query string as the canonical URL
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KartikPrabhu I only sent a webmention from https
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jonnybarnes hey barnabywalters: you know what'd be superb, if /php-mf2 had an option to output a print_r of the array instead of json
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KartikPrabhu barnabywalters: oh you mean your https and http gotcha
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barnabywalters jonnybarnes: interesting, what problem are you having?
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KartikPrabhu I'm not distinguishing them either at the moment
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jonnybarnes just visualising things in my head, Ive got some test HTML that ive put into your /php-mf2 just to see how the mf2 is structured, but any php I write is actually dealing with an array
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jonnybarnes then its a case of converting {} and [] from the json into the relevant levels of an array
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jonnybarnes the output of print_r is much easier to read from a writing PHP perspective for me
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ShaneHudson I can't remember the last time I wrote PHP, should probably relearn
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jonnybarnes barnabywalters: if a page had two h-entry's in it, would that result in the mf2 array having two 'items'?
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jonnybarnes i.e. $mf['items'][0] for the first h-entry and $mf['items']['1'] for the second h-entry
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barnabywalters jonnybarnes: yep, tht
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barnabywalters that should be what happens
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jonnybarnes awesome
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KartikPrabhu jonnybarnes: that will be true if it has h-* anything
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jonnybarnes and to check its a h-type we look in the items 'type' array
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jonnybarnes h-entry even
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jonnybarnes duh
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barnabywalters jonnybarnes: https://github.com/barnabywalters/php-mf-cleaner might be of use if you’re processing microformats data in PHP
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barnabywalters I usually alias it to M i.e. use BarnabyWalters\Mf2 as M
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ShaneHudson How does the PHP 'use' thing work? I haven't used it in so long, all that stuff confuses me
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barnabywalters ShaneHudson: the use statement aliases classnames in the file context
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jonnybarnes ShaneHudson, you dont actually need it, just makes things more obviouse
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ShaneHudson Ah I see
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barnabywalters so use Long_Unnamespaced_Classname as Classname
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barnabywalters does exactly what it sounds like
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jonnybarnes when loading a class you could just do $a = new \Super\Duper\A();
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barnabywalters and namespaced classnames are automatically aliased to the last segment of their names, e.g. use BarnabyWalters\Mf2
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barnabywalters is equivalent to use BarnabyWalters\Mf2 as Mf2;
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jonnybarnes saying that, this assumes your autoloading your files, which composer takes care of
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ShaneHudson So is it part of PHP or composer? I presume the latter?
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barnabywalters namespacing and autoloading are both part of PHP, composer provides a UI and infrastructure for autoloading and dependency management
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ShaneHudson Ah ok
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barnabywalters e.g. instead of writing your own autoloading code, composer gives you an ‘autoload.php’ file which you include once and it takes care of everything
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jonnybarnes so even people like me can do it :)
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ShaneHudson Ooo just found a akismet plugin for craft :D That will make handling spam much easier
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@kid_OYO RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @katelosse: I really like having my own website - you have access to analytics directly and who sees it (twitter.com/_/status/499898996002144257)
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ShaneHudson Interesting, the daughter of a friend is about 2 years old and she just asked me to turn off my imac because it is too loud. Seems to be at a frequency she can hear but the rest of us can't
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jonnybarnes I don't think the authorship algorithm as detailed on /authorship would find the author of this article: https://github.com/sandeepshetty/authorship-test-cases/blob/master/h-entry_with_rel-author_and_h-card_with_u-url_pointing_to_rel-author_href.html
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jonnybarnes you wouldn;t find any author property in the h-entry
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jonnybarnes so you'd go looking for a rel-author property, which in this case is no-h-card.html
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jonnybarnes which itself has no h-card or author property
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jonnybarnes I think the algo should be ammended so that if no author properties found in the h-entry or parent h-feed, go look for h-cards on the page before looking for rel-author links
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@JamesSLock @scott_riley Sponsors of IndieWebCamp include Google and Firefox... (twitter.com/_/status/499911768962240513)
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jonnybarnes unless step2 of the algo is more complicated than I think
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@zachinglis Fancy that! Google and Firefox are evil, until they give money! http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/UK/Guest_List#Creators (twitter.com/_/status/499912173947457536)
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@zachinglis Fancy that! Google and Mozilla are evil, until they hand over some money! http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/UK/Guest_List#Creators (Word of the day; hypocritical.) (twitter.com/_/status/499912301903110144)
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barnabywalters ugh, not sure if it’s worth responding
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barnabywalters pretty sure nowhere on the indiewebcamp wiki are either Google or Mozilla described as “evil”
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@StuRobson Define irony http://indiewebcamp.com/Sponsors (twitter.com/_/status/499913037596618752)
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ShaneHudson And here comes the mob
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ShaneHudson I'm glad I'm on a twitter vacation... otherwise I would probably get into an argument
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barnabywalters looking at http://indiewebcamp.com/Sponsors I see no irony, I see a bunch of awesome organisations and projects (Bridgy, Known, &yet, Esri, NYT, p3k, trrst)
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barnabywalters http://indiewebcamp.com/Special:Search?search=evil&fulltext=Search
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ShaneHudson I love &yet. Has to be one of the best companies I know of
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barnabywalters what is evil?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "evil" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=evil
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Loqi [@lewisking] RT @zachinglis: Fancy that! Google and Mozilla are evil, until they hand over some money! http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/UK/Guest_List#Creators (Word of the day
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Loqi hypocrit… (http://twtr.io/pbMmFhqUuQ)
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ShaneHudson They are obviously getting confused with Aral's talks :(
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Loqi it'll be ok
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ShaneHudson Lol cheers Loqi
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Loqi :)
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Loqi [mention] http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4XbDrj/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/Google (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4XbDrj/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/UK (webmention)
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voxpelli oh my, so useless to label things as evil and even if one do – so useless to assume that everything associated with something evil is also evil – guilt by association – meh
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voxpelli barnabywalters++
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Loqi barnabywalters has 55 karma
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ShaneHudson Yeah. Google do a lot that I am wary of, but so much good as well
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barnabywalters google is also a large, complicated company
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ShaneHudson Yup
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barnabywalters did my response miss anything? http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4XbDrj/
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ShaneHudson Nah I think that is spot on
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voxpelli +1
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@thecodezombie RT @zachinglis: Fancy that! Google and Mozilla are evil, until they hand over some money! http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/UK/Guest_List#Creators (Word of the day; hypocrit… (twitter.com/_/status/499917144931721218)
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barnabywalters why does that even link to the guest list
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barnabywalters wat
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ShaneHudson Because the first tweet was about Al's fedora
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Loqi [mention] http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4XbE2B/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/UK#Organizers (webmention)
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ShaneHudson Been dm'ing one of the people that were tweeting. He said that all their fustration is being directed to Aral. Think I've managed to explain that he is not in charge
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tommorris barnabywalters et al.: those tweets are hilarious.
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tommorris https://twitter.com/tommorris/status/499919454109966336
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@tommorris @zachinglis @BarnabyWalters Someone should probably tell the big evil multinationals I do web work for... (twitter.com/_/status/499919454109966336)
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ShaneHudson Hah!
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barnabywalters tommorris: you’re clearly aiming to bring down the system from within!
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tommorris to be fair, I'm hoping to add some microformats-2 and OpenStreetMap goodness to a client site rebuild I'm involved in soon. I'm sure this makes me some kind of web version of Lenin or Chairman Mao. ;-)
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@natashairizarry RT @zachinglis: Fancy that! Google and Mozilla are evil, until they hand over some money! http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/UK/Guest_List#Creators (Word of the day; hypocrit... (twitter.com/_/status/499917144931721218)
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ShaneHudson tommorris++
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Loqi tommorris has 36 karma
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ShaneHudson I'm wondering if we need a page on the wiki about Indie? In the same way we have one for Google.
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barnabywalters what is Indie?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Indie" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Indie
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ben_thatmustbeme anyone know if anyone is working on indie messaging?
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barnabywalters ben_thatmustbeme: presumably you’ve looked at http://indiewebcamp.com/messaging?
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ben_thatmustbeme barnabywalters, I was on http://indiewebcamp.com/indieweb-messaging
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ben_thatmustbeme but no notes on anyone currently working on it
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adactio I sent Aral a quick email to ask if he'd like to add a little disclaimer to the fineprint on ind.ie to indicate that it's not affiliated with Indie Web Camp. Maybe we should do the same on indiewebcamp.com?
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ShaneHudson adactio: We need to do something... and I suppose every little bit helps. I don't think it will stop the confusion though, even after we explained it they carried on
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barnabywalters adactio: thanks — that might be a good idea, any idea where would be a good place to put it?
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adactio barnabywalters: I was just wondering that myself.
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barnabywalters in the global footer seems a bit… pushy
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ben_thatmustbeme looks like kbs was working on it, but haven't seen him around in a while
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ShaneHudson How about changing 'The IndieWeb is a people-focused alternative to the ‘corporate web’.'
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ShaneHudson To something that focuses more on it being for everyone, and anyone being welcome
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ShaneHudson That should stop the idea of anti-corporation, as well as stop the idea of thinking people with strong views should be banned
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voxpelli +1, corporate and anti-corporate is a totally other dimension than the indieweb
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voxpelli if the indieweb is anti anything its silos, by I think its mostly pro a lot of things and not so much anti anything
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barnabywalters ShaneHudson: sounds like a good plan, go ahead!
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ShaneHudson But even with silos... the whole point of indie web is to work *with* the silos
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voxpelli yeah, just possibly anti the creation of new ones
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ShaneHudson Heh yeah
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ShaneHudson "The IndieWeb is a community focussing on making sure the web is for everyone, again." .. hmm I'm not happy with it, but something along those lines?
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ShaneHudson adactio, you're good with words. Any ideas?
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adactio How about "The Indie Web is a community focussed on the principle that the web is for everyone."
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ben_thatmustbeme focussing on user data under their own control
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ben_thatmustbeme s/user/keeping user/
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Loqi ben_thatmustbeme meant to say: focussing on keeping user data under their own control
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barnabywalters s/focussed/focused
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ShaneHudson ben_thatmustbeme: That is already on the homepage so don't think it needs repeating
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ben_thatmustbeme oh, hah, i didn't even notice that
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ShaneHudson Do we need to say public/open community?
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shanehudson.net edited /Main_Page (+11) "Attempting to make the homepage obvious that IWC is for everyone." (view diff)
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@krijnsoeteman oeps... ik spam nu iedereen omdat ik wat wijzigingen aanbreng.. iets met koppelingen... zie ook: http://dangillmor.com/2014/04/25/indie-web-important/ #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/499931248161488897)
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ben_thatmustbeme i was listening to TWIG and Jeff and Leo hit on an interesting idea. Sharing your block list to friends.
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ben_thatmustbeme I know spam / trolls aren't really much of a problem yet but it would be an interesting feature to add
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ShaneHudson I suppose it would work the exactly same way as sharing a friends list, which is more useful
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ShaneHudson Especially if you have multiple lists, as I do on Twitter
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@adactioLinks Tantek Çelik - The once and future IndieWeb - YouTube https://www.youtube.com/ (twitter.com/_/status/499933080686440448)
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ben_thatmustbeme perhaps. I figure friends list isn't something you always want to share.
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@ShaneHudson RT @adactioLinks: Tantek Çelik - The once and future IndieWeb - YouTube https://www.youtube.com/ (twitter.com/_/status/499933309942910976)
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ben_thatmustbeme i don't want people to always know who i am friends with or not. or rather not a complete list of this
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@adactio @StuRobson (and, for the record, the only sponsor of the Indie Web Camp event in Brighton is @clearleft: http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/UK#Sponsors ) (twitter.com/_/status/499933496815923202)
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ben_thatmustbeme if i have just a list of people i block, (or more likely a set of lists split up to troll/spam/personal) I'd share them with any of my friends
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ShaneHudson ben_thatmustbeme: But you might want a subset of them. For instance recommendations of web devs to follow etc
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ben_thatmustbeme ShaneHudson indeed, but i think its more optional not the default
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ben_thatmustbeme but yes, its the same idea
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ShaneHudson Yeah that's fair enough, just thinking it would be a useful feature with the same implementation (just a different way of dealing with recieving the list)
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ben_thatmustbeme the only difference I would say would be to include not only indieweb identities but also silo'd identities. If someone always spams my facebook syndications, I just want to kill off any of those comments from getting mentioned back
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ben_thatmustbeme maybe i'd set a threshhold of, if three of my lists include this person, just ignore them, if only 2, then maybe it will go to manual approval
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/adactio/499933496815923202/499934798300082176 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/UK#Sponsors (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/adactio/499933496815923202/499934062145183745 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/UK#Sponsors (webmention)
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ShaneHudson I swear some people just want to argue for arguments sake
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ben_thatmustbeme many of them become lawyers :P
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@adactio @StuRobson Huh? You said “I linked to the site sponsors page” referring to this, right? http://indiewebcamp.com/Sponsors Those are event-specific. (twitter.com/_/status/499935626725425152)
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voxpelli ShaneHudson: Regarding wording of front page – still kind of implies that someone else is doing something wrong rather than that the indieweb is doing something right
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ShaneHudson voxpelli: Hmm I see your point, any suggestion on how to improve it?
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cuibonobo i know that both 'focused' and 'focussed' are accepted spellings, but the double-s seems wrong to me. american vs british?
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ShaneHudson Ah, probably
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kylewm voxpelli: ShaneHudson: little bit of discussion (b/t me and tantek) on the tagline http://indiewebcamp.com/community-brainstorming#Is_there_a_clear.2C_circulated_community_vision_or_objective.3F
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kylewm.com edited /community-brainstorming (+177) "/* Is there a clear, circulated community vision or objective? */ add reply to kevin's tweet" (view diff)
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voxpelli kylewm: good one
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voxpelli ShaneHudson: One liners are super tricky, to get something thats neither misleading nor just empty words is very tough
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kylewm curious, where's the anti-Mozilla sentiment coming from?
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voxpelli Perhaps eg. "The Indie Web is a community for discovering ways to build your personal web"
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ShaneHudson Read through the log of today, there has been a lot of confusion between IWC and Indie. Tried to make it obvious that we accept everyone and are not anti-corporations. Feel free to change it though!
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voxpelli kylewm: I would assume the guilt by association has made someone point out Mozilla as evil because they are mostly funded by Google
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cuibonobo also, the acceptance of DRM video in Firefox cause a lot of hand-wringing and thoughts that Mozilla had "turned"
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voxpelli well, people love to hate
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kylewm heh
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ShaneHudson This talk of Tantek's at Web Directions is incredible.
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kylewm ah, ok i see https://ind.ie/phone/faq/#firefox-os
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kylewm "If your platform can only run web apps and the best web apps in town are made by closed silos like Google, your users are going to end up using those apps and their data will end up in these closed silos"
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kylewm that is some terrible logic
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voxpelli indeed
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barnabywalters_ wat
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cuibonobo while i do agree that perhaps the indie phone's efforts would be better spent making great apps for an open source phone rather than inventing everything themselves, i'm curious
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cuibonobo do you think his logic is terrible because the best web apps are *not* made by closed silos?
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barnabywalters the logic is terrible because the exact same thing can be said for native apps
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barnabywalters web apps are not terrible because google and facebook make web apps in the same way that native apps are not terrible because google and facebook make native apps
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cuibonobo well, the statement is "the best web apps". i'm happy with native apps if they work well, but i switch to something else if they don't
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barnabywalters “the best” is meaningless
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barnabywalters you could just as well say “the best” native apps are made by closed silos
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kylewm yeah HTML/CSS/JS does not imply built by Google/Facebook/Twitter, that's all
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cuibonobo i don't think he's implying that.
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cuibonobo if i'm unhappy with how the calendar app that came with my phone is working go through the effort of researching calendar apps, deciding on one, and replacing the one that comes with my phone, surely "the best" isnt' meaningless
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barnabywalters cuibonobo: it’s equally meaningless/ful for web and native apps
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cuibonobo maybe we're reading his statement differently. i don't think his criticism of Firefox OS is that it uses web apps instead of native apps. his criticism is that they are *only* offering an OS without also creating apps
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cuibonobo so people will be drawn to the web apps that they know / are used to
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kylewm cuibonobo: yeah I see that. I did quote him out of context a little
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kylewm kiiinda feels like "why make an electric car, the electricity just comes from coal"
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cuibonobo hmmm. i think it's more like, "why are you worrying about hydroelectric vs coal. you're still using 100W bulbs"
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kylewm ha
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kylewm on a different note, mf2py and php-mf2 parse javascript in an e-content badly http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ferinjo.is%2F2014%2Fchecked-into-mozilla-1
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jonnybarnes anyone good at phpunit/guzzle? http://stackoverflow.com/questions/25312499/mocking-a-guzzlehttp-response
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aaronpk good morning indiewebcamp!
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ShaneHudson aaronpk: Good morning :)
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aaronpk imported irc logs from when Loqi was offline. thanks for pinging me KartikPrabhu
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aaronpk now catching up on logs from last night. nicely-formatted logs :)
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jonnybarnes Loqi went offline *gasp*
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Loqi who, me?
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aaronpk sometimes he needs a break
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ShaneHudson Trying to pursuade my 11 year old brother to make a website :) He was surprised I had one when I was his age
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aaronpk lots of chatter about analytics last night!
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kylewm aaronpk: yeah that was interesting, kate losse was saying that's one of the big reasons she has/likes having her own site
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kylewm casual survey, it seems like 2/3 of indie web sites have no analytics, 1/3 has Google Analytics
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GWG kylewm, what do you think of that?
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aaronpk kylewm: that seems like a test that could be easily automated :) especially if you just use the /irc-people page
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kylewm GWG: i'm uncomfortable with google analytics but not analytics in general. though when i tried piwik, felt like i wasn't getting a very complete picture
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aaronpk kylewm: have you tried http://clicky.com ?
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GWG I have Google Analytics. But partly because I haven't gotten to looking into other options
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aaronpk they're a portland company actually, and quite small
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kylewm thanks aaronpk, I will check it out
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aaronpk their big hook is that everything is visible in realtime
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GWG Anyone know a self installable solution?
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aaronpk piwik
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kylewm I saw a cool video of http://get.gaug.es/ that looked similar
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aaronpk I gave up on it after a while. really didn't want to run yet another system.
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rascul i use goaccess
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aaronpk sounds like we have enough for an /analytics stub :) why doesn't that exist yet?
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rascul i'm mildly interested in the numbers of people hitting my site, that's about it
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kylewm rascul: oh yeah i have used goaccess too, probably on your rec
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rascul i have a script in crontab that runs goaccess on logs for several sites of mine
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kylewm aaronpk: also, subtle plug from benwerd that he would like to merge https://github.com/benwerd/mention-client-php/commit/58d7d24f739d1bfeb2cd5b9fb938613921b60721
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aaronpk oh hey, didn't see that for some reason
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aaronpk I mostly read my github notifications in IRC, and that repo hadn't been added yet
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ben_thatmustbeme so many areas i want to work more on
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ben_thatmustbeme i asked earlier but not many people around. Anyone know of anybody doing work on indieweb messaging?
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aaronpk i have something running
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aaronpk i think barnaby does too
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ben_thatmustbeme . /indieweb-messaging just states that its out of date, didn't know what the modern method anyone else is using
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aaronpk possibly more info here http://indiewebcamp.com/private_posts
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aaronpk basically now I'm just doing sign in to my site with indieauth and you can see the message I sent
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aaronpk it's about time to update /indieweb-messaging tho
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ben_thatmustbeme hmm, interesting, trying to decide if there should be any difference between a message and just a private post
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aaronpk I think they're the same thing, except that I would assume a message would send you some sort of notification
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ben_thatmustbeme mainly I don't want to log in to someone else's site to chat back and forth with them. It would be ideal to just login to my site and have my message thread there.
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ben_thatmustbeme so really its about my server fetching that private post for me
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aaronpk yep
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aaronpk that's the idea
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ben_thatmustbeme thats more what I need to dive more in to next then i think
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ben_thatmustbeme after I get all the admin bits of my contact management worked out
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aaronpk cool
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ben_thatmustbeme ideally i'd love to grab of person's contact info straight out of their h-card and pull all of my own silo friends in as well
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ben_thatmustbeme the server fetching private data is where the private contact values I added would play in best
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snarfed ben_thatmustbeme: interesting. that makes me think i should add mf2 (html and json) output support to https://github.com/snarfed/portablecontacts-unofficial
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snarfed (ben_thatmustbeme: btw, i assume you know, but just in case, http://ben.thatmustbe.me/ is unhappy)
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Loqi [mention] http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2014/08/14/1/music linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-08-14/line/1408012478691 (webmention)
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ben_thatmustbeme eeep!
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ben_thatmustbeme fixed
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ben_thatmustbeme missing semicolon... the problem of switching constantly between ruby and php
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snarfed heh
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ben_thatmustbeme also snarfed, I had added you to my friends list, so if you login to my site, the Elsewhere section expands with more personal info
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snarfed ben_thatmustbeme: fun!
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aaronpk oh man aggressive regex matching loqi http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-08-14/line/1408012799156
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Loqi :)
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ben_thatmustbeme haha, yeah not quite right
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aaronpk tommorris: can we chat a minute about indiewebcampuk?
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tommorris aaronpk: gimme a few - in a cab
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aaronpk k
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aaronparecki.com edited /community-brainstorming (+12) "/* Are there regular opportunities for community members to meet in person? */ fix link to [[IndieWebCamps]]" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com created /ind.ie (+257) "stub" (view diff)
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tommorris aaronpk: fire away, here or in /msg
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@kieranajp RT @zachinglis: Fancy that! Google and Mozilla are evil, until they hand over some money! http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/UK/Guest_List#Creators (Word of the day; hypocrit… (twitter.com/_/status/499981760458162176)
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aaronpk tommorris: cool just wondering if you think coffee in the morning would be a good idea
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tommorris aaronpk: definitely. the venue is adactio's so he's probably the person to approach in terms of sponsorship
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aaronpk I have sponsorship from esri for it, just need to coordinate actually getting the coffee
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tommorris should probably book a hotel for that weekend.
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tommorris the venue is amazing btw. aral's indietechsummit used it for day two
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aaronpk !tell adactio let's talk about esri sponsorship for indiewebcamp uk!
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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ben.thatmustbe.me edited /lulz (-3) "/* Local */ keep the offtopic stuff out of #indiewebcamp" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /lulz (+14) "link to [[indiechat]] page" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com created /events/2014-08-27-homebrew-website-club (+4321) "Initial event. Please confirm venues." (view diff)
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bnvk yo yo, any of you cool cats wanna pre-test the Beta Mac build of Mailpile ?
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aaronpk ooooo
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bnvk point your clicker here https://www.mailpile.is/files/beta/
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aaronpk is this a client that talks to a mail server somewhere?
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bnvk yes
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bnvk all you need to enter is your creds
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aaronpk wait a mac app? did you bundle a web server in there or something?
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bnvk yes
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bnvk we bundled a python + gpg binary, and have a custom web server inside our app code
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aaronpk interesting
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bnvk we're gonna shave off our lil mac, win, linux packaging tool at some point, so perhaps others will want to dev localhost web apps for fun & pleasure :)
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aaronpk awesome!
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gregorlove.com edited /Main_Page (+0) "/* Homebrew Website Club */ 8/27 meetup" (view diff)
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ben.thatmustbe.me edited /IRC (+16) "/* See also */" (view diff)
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gRegor` MediaWiki:Sidebar does not appear to be editable by mere mortals.
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bnvk lol
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gRegor` To update the next HWC event.
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gRegor` It also adds one other place to edit when setting up new events.
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gRegor` new event page, /events list, main page, Mediawiki:Sidebar
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@jasonkneen Irony: Google is a sponsor of @indiewebcamp. #incoming (twitter.com/_/status/499987333371150336)
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ben_thatmustbeme now they are just mixing up ind.ie and indiewebcamp for sure
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ShaneHudson Yeah they were early. A few of us were trying to explain it (though I stuck to DM)
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ShaneHudson *earlier
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barnabywalters #incoming?
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KartikPrabhu aah the idiotic one-click RT propagated confusion is still going strong
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KartikPrabhu barnabywalters: might mean that they expect "replies now" from people here reacting
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KartikPrabhu people being defensive
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barnabywalters uh seriously
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bnvk what?
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ShaneHudson Should we tag #outgoing?
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ShaneHudson ;)
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ben_thatmustbeme we're seeing the second gen though.. the originals were misleading tweets. now we get the second round of misunderstanding which leads to clear but incorrect tweets
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barnabywalters isn’t that basically baiting though
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barnabywalters rather than genuine misunderstanding
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KartikPrabhu has half mind to put on his troll-hat from college chatroom days and go clobbering
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bnvk https://twitter.com/jasonkneen/status/499987563395166209
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Loqi [@jasonkneen] Tonight I'm playing "drink a shot when someone in the indie space responds to that last tweet" game.
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KartikPrabhu barnabywalters: to be fair that was my guess
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@gRegorLove PSA: http://indiewebcamp.com is not that same as https://ind.ie/ (twitter.com/_/status/499988327567613952)
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barnabywalters genuine misunderstanding is worth responding to, baiting/trolling is a complete waste of time
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KartikPrabhu seems I guessed right :P
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bnvk considering his follow up tweet- seems trolling
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ben_thatmustbeme snarfed. Just got an email because of your mention on github... that really confused me for a second considering that came in on an account i don't really use much any more (or at all with respect to IWC)
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KartikPrabhu can we mark @jasonkeen as spammer ?
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snarfed ben_thatmustbeme: funny
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bnvk hehe
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tommorris This is interesting. http://www.psmag.com/navigation/nature-and-technology/just-kill-comments-already-88188/
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KartikPrabhu tommorris: don't worry the smart ones are on it: http://www.knightfoundation.org/press-room/press-release/mozilla-new-york-times-and-washington-post-launch-/ ;)
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KartikPrabhu wonders how sober @jasonkeen is?
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ben_thatmustbeme count typos from here out and we can indirectly observe BAC.
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@benwerd @StuRobson I think it's good feedback. The question becomes, who is an appropriate sponsor for an IndieWebCamp? (twitter.com/_/status/499994676250701825)
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@kevinmarks @LynnMagic @meaganewaller see http://indiewebcamp.com/irc for how we use irc (twitter.com/_/status/500001427402407937)
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@LynnMagic RT @kevinmarks: @LynnMagic @meaganewaller see http://indiewebcamp.com/irc for how we use irc (twitter.com/_/status/500001550920454145)
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@LynnMagic RT @kevinmarks: @LynnMagic @meaganewaller see http://indiewebcamp.com/irc for how we use irc (twitter.com/_/status/500001550874734592)
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@schnarfed RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @schnarfed: do everything manually until it hurts - then change it (twitter.com/_/status/500003222614859776)
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KartikPrabhu "The Indie Web is a community focussed on the principle that the web is for everyone. " I don't think this captures the indieweb idea at all
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KartikPrabhu I mean Twitter is for everyone too
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KartikPrabhu thinks of better pharses
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aaronpk !tell bnvk I got an error after downloading mailpile.dmg, says "no mountable filesystems" are in the image
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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gRegor` !tell bnvk Just watched your ind.ie summit talk. Great job. http://vimeo.com/103353277
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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aaronpk oo
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gRegor` adactio's is up too. Watching now. http://vimeo.com/102531646
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aaronpk interesting post about email http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2014/08/why-email-will-never-die/375973/?single_page=true
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barnabywalters -> lol @ There isn't much to sending or receiving email and that's sort of the point,"
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barnabywalters nonsense
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aaronpk it's true from the user perspective once everything is set up
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barnabywalters it requires a whole bunch of moving parts
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aaronpk course that's also true of Twitter
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barnabywalters aaronpk: that paragraph and extended quote is written from a technical perspective
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aaronpk no I think he's arguing that the email-alternative things like apps are harder to set up as a user, and usually involve signing up everyone else who you want to communicate with
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barnabywalters "The next time someone tells you email is 'dead,' try to imagine the cost of investing in their solution or the cost of giving up all the flexibility that email affords."
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barnabywalters hm, maybe that’s from a user perspective
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aaronpk I happen to know the guy who said that, I can ask him to clarify :)
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barnabywalters even users are exposed to the mismatch between sending and recieving (requiring separate systems) if they want to set up a local mail client
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barnabywalters but I’m guessing most people don’t do that
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tommorris Email's not dying. Just wish it was.
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KartikPrabhu likes email
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aaronpk KartikPrabhu: what about email do you like?
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KartikPrabhu that is it not all shiny and social
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KartikPrabhu it is purely functional which I want for some purposes
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aaronpk that sounds like a good goal for some indieweb tools too :)
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KartikPrabhu same reason I have not ditched text messaging for "Whatsapp" or "FB messenger" urgh
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: if private indieweb messaging matures then yes. until then email is the best for private communication IMO
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aaronpk or sms
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aaronpk but yes
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KartikPrabhu yeah text messaging = sms in what I said :)
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KartikPrabhu I am all for tantek's people focused messagin thingie though
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KartikPrabhu that is a good direction
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KartikPrabhu !tell bvnk have you a indie web post with your indie summit talk. I wants to like it: https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/designers-vs-coders-bnvk :)
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: for instance I find the G+ notification Mr Jingles on the top of my Gmail very annoying
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aaronpk looks
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aaronpk oh yeah that, I forgot that was there. It's just persistently showing me some arbitrary number.
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tantek.com edited /Main_Page (-11) "Agree with Kartik, this change loses too much. Undo revision 12228 by [[Special:Contributions/Shanehudson.net|Shanehudson.net]] ([[User talk:Shanehudson.net|talk]])" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu yeah some updates in your G+ stream... I just want my email damnit
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KartikPrabhu tantek didn't mean to imply undoing the revision until we had a better alternative.
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KartikPrabhu in some sense "corporate web" is not the problem. a silo-ed closed web is
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tantek KartikPrabhu: nope, right answer is to revert *worse* revisions. Just as with deployed software.
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KartikPrabhu probably :)
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tantek that phrasing comes from Scott Jenson's original "new" intro text
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tantek from IndieWebCampSF
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tantek I think KevinMarks did a good job summarizing
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tantek last night
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KartikPrabhu tantek: not aware of Scott Jenson's new intro text... link if any?
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tantek KartikPrabhu: see changes to Main_Page at the time of IndieWebCampSF
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KartikPrabhu will do
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tantek but nitpicking that is missing the bigger issue this morning
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tantek issue(s)
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tantek one, as folks here surmised is the confusion of apparently Aral calling Google and Mozilla evil, with this community
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tantek which, as far as I know, has not called Google etc. evil
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tantek as the wiki search revealed earlier
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KartikPrabhu yeah. the old false dichotomy problem
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KartikPrabhu and other indie confusions
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tantek I don't think it's a false dichotomy problem
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tantek I think it's a problem of one person (Aral) choosing to pick an identity (Ind.ie) that implies much more "community" than it implies "startup" (which is all it is)
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KartikPrabhu tantek: i meant... Google = evil hence they can not sponsor lunch for indie stuff
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tantek it's also Aral's exaggeration calling "Indie Tech" a "movement" when it's just a blog post.
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KartikPrabhu compounded by indie being used for many things
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tantek Indie was already used for many things
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tantek as we've documented here
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KartikPrabhu yup... but it is so much easier to just retweet something rather than read a wiki :P
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tantek http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indie
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KartikPrabhu also I dislike the phrase "indieweb movement" for reasons noted here: https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/indieweb-selfish
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tantek so that's the *first* problem - the (perhaps somewhat deliberate) confusion caused by naming something too generically (ind.ie), and claiming a movement from a single blog post.
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aaronpk ben_thatmustbeme phrased what's happening quite nicely here too http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-08-14/line/1408041423868
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tantek the second is the hateful attitude of the criticisms of Google etc. as opposed to simply documenting them as more like unreliable - very different. I've tried to make that distinction in my talks.
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tantek aaronpk - I'm not too worried about nonsense tweets
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: yes. gen 2 relies on trusting gen 1 to make correct statements and so the confusion propagates
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tantek I also disagree with adactio about needing any kind of explicit disclaimer with "ind.ie" - in either direction
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tantek propagating confusion is merely an aspect of Twitter
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tantek unlikely to ever amount to much if anything
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KartikPrabhu tantek++ for ^
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Loqi tantek has 57 karma
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tantek so don't get too worried about it
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tantek also, the key is to note the two problems above, in combination
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tantek note that we did not see *any* of these kinds of problems with "Indie Box"
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tantek as a counter example
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KartikPrabhu tantek: maybe because Indie Box has not caught people's eyes yet like ind.ie has due to lack of provocative statements
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tantek KartikPrabhu: yes, hate gets attention, but it's short term, and rarely amounts to anything productive.
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KartikPrabhu tantek: true. which I why I force myself to avoid counter-trolling when it comes to indieweb and let more reasonable people do all the Twitter responding :P
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KartikPrabhu oh cool... noticed that vimeo already respects w3c media-fragment type links! example: http://vimeo.com/102531646#t=270 vs the URL they give you http://vimeo.com/102531646#t=270s
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KartikPrabhu both work!
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tantek very cool KartikPrabhu
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KartikPrabhu is excited to see how barnabywalters' soundcloud-type player comes along, with webmentioned- annotations :)
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tantek we should explicitly and openly document the confusion caused by "ind.ie" vs. "indie-"
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aaronpk oh man I gotta finish this collections thing so I can work on my music player
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: what be this collections thing?
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aaronpk tantek: here? http://indiewebcamp.com/ind.ie
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aaronpk KartikPrabhu: https://github.com/aaronpk/p3k/issues/8
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aaronpk it's coming along quite nicely
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aaronpk just need to figure out a few more details
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: oh nice. I might steal some ideas. I want to have a page which lists all my responses (marginalia etc...) to the same post
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KartikPrabhu like all margin notes for a particular book
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kylewm question about the mf2 parsing of Known check ins posts -- bunch of javascript shows up in the "content"; is that a parser bug or a markup bug? https://kylewm.com/api/mf2?url=http://werd.io/2014/ben-werdmller-posted-checked-into-sonoma-county-fairground
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aaronpk or a feature?
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kylewm oh yeah, NOTABUG also an option
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: good point. are mf2-parsers supposed to ignore the <script> contents while looking for e-content.value?
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: move to #microformats?
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kylewm good call KartikPrabhu
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ben_thatmustbeme i think the saying is "undocumented feature"
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kylewm !xkcd 1172
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tantek.com moved /Indie_Anywhere to /2012/UK/Indie_Anywhere
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kylewm tantek: could you also move Web_Analytics to 2011/Web_Analytics ?
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tantek.com moved /Web_Analytics to /2011/Web_Analytics "IndieWebCamp 2011 session notes"
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tantek.com created /indie (+623) "stub with dfn, prefix usage" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /Indie (+19) "redirect since even when capitalized it is more often a generic prefix than a company" (view diff)
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tantek what is indie?
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Loqi indie is short for independent and independence and is often used as a prefix to describe independent things or things designed for independents, such as indie rock, games, films, and of course, IndieWebCamp itself http://indiewebcamp.com/indie
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ShaneHudson tantek: With regards to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-08-14/line/1408049194250 while nonsense tweets are not really a problem. When those tweets get retweeted, it gives everybody a misconception about IWC... which is a shame
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tantek ShaneHudson: we should document those tweets as citations to note the general problem of confusion caused by naming a specific company "Ind.ie", and the self-made claims of a blog-post-as-movement of "Indie Tech.
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tantek note that there is already a separate *company* called Indietech as well: www.indietech.com.au
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ShaneHudson Agreed, as long as it is fact-based comparison and not 'slating' (for want of a better word) ind.ie
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tantek something isn't a "movement" just because you (presumed starter of such) claims it is.
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ShaneHudson Oo I actually quite like that website
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tantek something is a movement when *others* write about it as such, e.g. Dan Gillmor's article about The Indie Web movement
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ShaneHudson tantek: Yeah true, but that's no different to someone claiming they are an entreprenuer because they want to be good at business
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tantek no yeah but. that's a yeah and. :)
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aaronpk weirdest sentence ever
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tantek quotation marks and ellipses implied :)
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ShaneHudson Fatal Error: Can't parse ;)
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KartikPrabhu 404 punctuation not found
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tantek.com created /IndieWeb (+22) "r - not sure which should redirect to which but make sure both exist for now and just redirect to existing page" (view diff)
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cuibonobo isn't indiewebcamp part of "the rise of indietech"?
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tantek cuibonobo: welcome to the confusion caused by the claim of "the rise of indietech"?
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tantek indiewebcamp is not "part of" - it's it.
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KartikPrabhu oh man.. me hates buzz phrases more than buzz words
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KartikPrabhu buzzphrase--
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Loqi buzzphrase has -1 karma
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tantek KartikPrabhu: right, the buzzphrase "indie tech" was purely made up in a blog post and has no actual movement, group, organization etc.
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tantek or technology for that matter, sad to say
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ShaneHudson Yeah, when I first saw it I wasn't a fan of the term 'indieweb' but with all of the others, ugh.
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tantek both aaronpk and I actually built and shipped our own sites, and some open source code, before we dared to start calling what we were working on "IndieWeb"
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KartikPrabhu someone should write a post called "The dawn of the rise of the return of the revenge of the indieweb" :P
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tantek that is, dared to call it something different
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cuibonobo tantek: if you put the standards adopted by the indiewebcamp community together with something like arkOS or ownCloud, i'd say it's "part of"
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tantek than just all the terms that came before
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tantek cuibonobo: part of what? I'm still not sure how arkOS or ownCloud fit in with owning your own identity, data, content, website.
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KartikPrabhu cuibonobo: *if*
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tantek what is arkOS?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "arkOS" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=arkOS
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tantek waht is ownCloud?
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tantek what is ownCloud?
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Loqi http://indiewebcamp.com/owncloud
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tantek well there's that at least
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ShaneHudson what is hosting
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Loqi Web hosting is perhaps the primary regular cost in maintaining an Indie Web Site (more expensive than most domain name registrations/renewals) http://indiewebcamp.com/hosting
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cuibonobo they're both projects that aim to 'de-silo', but their focus is different
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tantek cuibonobo: a-ha - that's the difference. they're both just *one* project each.
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adactio *watches tantek and ShaneHudson make Loqi do tricks like a well-trained dog* ;-)
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tantek indiewebcamp is not an open source "project"
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ShaneHudson Who do you all host with? What are the specs of server and price?
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KartikPrabhu cuibonobo: my view at least is that putitng all these things under one umbrella term forces people to view them as a homogenous entity with one viewpoint which is not even true on indiewebcamp
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Loqi adactio: aaronpk left you a message 3 hours, 4 minutes ago: let's talk about esri sponsorship for indiewebcamp uk!
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cuibonobo tantek: the standards that you have adopted together is your project
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tantek a lof of folks have trouble understanding that. "where do I download it?" "where do I install Indieweb?"
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cuibonobo tantek: webmentions, frangmentations, etc
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aaronpk ohai adactio!
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adactio aaronpk: ohai
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tantek cuibonobo: it's a common misconception
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tantek and if you want to label every human endeavour a "project", you're missing the point
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tantek both of those are separate *open source projects*
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ShaneHudson My hosting is up in October and I really want to do something about it, £300 per year for a VPS that I can max out with Wordpress is useless.
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tantek cuibonobo: from the home page: "Principles over project-centrism. Others assume a monoculture of one project for all. We are developing a plurality of projects. "
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tantek indiewebcamp is a community, not an open source project, that's the difference.
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tantek yes, other open source projects have communities themselves, and often end up as a /monoculture
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KartikPrabhu ShaneHudson: fwiw I use webfaction.com mainly due to them being python friendly
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tantek we're deliberately avoiding that outcome by encouraging a plurality of projects.
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cuibonobo tantek: you have many trees in the same soil. all based on mf2, webmentions, etc. you developed this standard language together, yes. but it's still one thing at its core
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tantek "one thing at its core" - those are the principles, rather than a github repo
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tantek that's the difference
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aaronpk cuibonobo: that's like saying all email servers and clients are one project
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ShaneHudson Or all websites are the same thing, because they all use HTTP and the various web technologies
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cuibonobo aaronpk: yes. and HTTP. and "the web". we have agreed on a thing.
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cuibonobo and work on it together
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KartikPrabhu wonders if there ever was a web movement?
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tantek goes to answer a bunch of #microformats questions
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aaronpk but that's all completely different from a single open source project (shared codebase)
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tantek cuibonobo: note, there is no indietech discussion forum (e.g. IRC), there is no shared indietech resource (editable wiki), there is no indietech community nor movement. it is a fiction implied by a blog post. nothing more.
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cuibonobo tantek: note the irony of wanting every project, protocol, or community that is looking to host their content *independently* to all call themselves "indietech". arkos is an independent technology. the standards adopted by indiewebcamp are also an independent technology
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cuibonobo the fact that the many people that are trying to figure out solutions independently don't hang out in the same chat room doesn't invalidate their efforts
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bret aaronpk how did it go last night?
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aaronpk wait who said anything about the same chatroom? or wanting everyone to call themselves indietech?
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aaronpk cuibonobo: i'm curious what your idea of indietech actually is. maybe that's where my confusion is coming from.
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cuibonobo aaronpk: technologies that allow people to have more control / ownership over their own data
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aaronpk I mean the term "indietech"
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cuibonobo that's what i mean. that's my definition of indietech
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aaronpk that's a great definition, but sounds like a definition of something like "independent technology", not the madeup word "indietech"
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tantek right, what aaronpk said.
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tantek also, certainly not a "movement"
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bret indietech/indiephone is arals project. Right now its an unanounced crowdfunding campaing. Calling it a fiction is too harsh. Its not a an indieweb thing and thats fine. The naming overlapp is kind of confusing though
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tantek bret - I'm calling the claim of a "movement" fiction.
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bret oh i see
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tantek agreed about indiephone being an actual project, and frankly, I hope it succeeds, despite the difficulties it faces
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tantek cuibonobo: as I hope those other *projects* succeed as well, independent of any notion of movement or whatever.
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ShaneHudson Yeah I think the problem is all down to naming and semantics, and enthusiasm too I suppose. If it works, then I will be happy. If it doesn't, well... then it doesn't.
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cuibonobo tantek: the blog post refers to "indie tech", independent technologies. in my mind calling the movement towards indie tech a fiction is like calling the achievements of indiewebcamp a fiction
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cuibonobo tantek: because i believe you are part of that same movement he's referring to
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tantek except the achievements have websites, repos, wiki pages, etc.
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tantek whereas the "movement" has … a blog post.
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tantek the claimed "indie tech" movement that is
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tommorris so, this blog post we're talking about - where's that?
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aaronpk I think I see what's happening
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cuibonobo wait so, the "movement" needs an over-arching project?
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ShaneHudson They did have a seemingly successful conference
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cuibonobo tommorris: https://aralbalkan.com/notes/2014-the-rise-of-indie-tech/
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tantek cuibonobo, no see above, any such "movement" needs someone *else* to recognize it as such
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tantek rather than someone claiming it for themselves
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tommorris is leading a movement down to the shop to buy a packet of crisps and a can of soda.
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KartikPrabhu cuibonobo: any reason to treat these separate projects and technologies under an umbrella term and risk people confusing views from either for those of the other like what happened this morning?
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tantek this community built and shipped plenty, independently, for years, before anyone started talking about any kind of "indieweb movement" , and that's fine.
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tommorris okay, so aral is using the indie brand for his stuff. which is fine. we don't have a trademark on it.
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tantek tommorris: no trademark, just recognizing the confusion caused
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tantek which now has tweets to back it up (the confusion)
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tommorris at the same time, some anti-aral trolls think anything indie* == aral
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aaronpk as people who are working on specific things, indieweb protocols / projects / arkos / etc, we're all working independently. then aral started using the term "indie tech" to refer to all of these things under one umbrella term.
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cuibonobo aaronpk: precesely.
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KartikPrabhu tommorris: yup! exactly
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aaronpk so for people involved in these efforts, we look up and are like "wait what? now we're indie tech?"
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aaronpk but someone on the outside sees it more like "indie tech is all these things"
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KartikPrabhu and indietech says Google = evil and still Google sponsors Indiewebcamps
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KartikPrabhu #irony #hypocrisy
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cuibonobo KartikPrabhu: but, wait. indie tech doesn't say that. ind.ie does. aral does.
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tantek aaronpk, you're being too generous. Aral claims to define "Indie Tech", not just be providing an umbrella term.
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tantek cuibonobo yes it / he does. http://indietech.org/
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aaronpk sure, results in the same situation though
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tommorris I have to say, demon-peddling is bad. companies are human creations, and humans are neither all evil nor all good.
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KartikPrabhu cuibonobo: yup! but the side effect of putting everythign under one term is that people attribute what ind.ie does/says to everyone which is not true
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tommorris Google does some bad things, but it's made up of individuals and many of those are good people working hard to further good goals.
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tantek cuibonobo: more: https://twitter.com/search?f=realtime&q=indietech.org&src=typd
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tommorris back in the 90s, people thought Microsoft was the new Satan. now it's Google.
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cuibonobo all of these are links to the indie tech manifesto
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tantek aaronpk, it's not just "to refer to all of these things under one umbrella term", per citations above
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tommorris there's a bit of co-opting going on. :)
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aaronpk ah sure, maybe I should have said more like "to bring them under the same roof" or something
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tantek cuibonobo: no the tweets show the attempt to define it
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tantek and frankly, the tweets today show the problem
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aaronpk i think you get my point tho. I'm tryign to see where cuibonobo is coming from.
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tantek show why it's not the same thing
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cuibonobo tantek: i think i get it. you're mad at aral for putting a label on you and then using that label for things you don't agree with.
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tantek cuibonobo: you can try to define "indie tech" your way, that's fine, but Aral has already beat you to it with a domain and a blog post, and a manifesto.
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tantek cuibonobo: not mad, just explaining the difference
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tantek and yes, it's not just me that doesn't agree with the hateful language coming out of "indie tech" related things
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tantek those of us that started working on the indieweb did so more to be constructive and productive ourselves, rather than tear down big companies and spread hate
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cuibonobo tantek: i understand.
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tantek We started with POSSE as a key *distinguishing* building block - to *use* existing networks rather than just hate against them.
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tantek so if "indie tech" as Aral wants to define it stands for hating on larger companies and inciting such hatred, then no, I do not want anything to do with it, and wish him luck with that approach (it's been tried before).
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cuibonobo tantek: maybe we can snatch the term back when he's done with it :)
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tantek cuibonobo: why do we need the term at all? let's just ship awesome stuff on our own sites!
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cuibonobo tantek: because indie tech is short for independent technologies. the thing that we're shipping.
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ShaneHudson Terms are not needed. Google don't market themselves to consumers as being a corporate. They market themselves as the solution.
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tantek cuibonobo: that's a tautology
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tantek also, no need to use a vaguer term when a more specific one will do
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tantek I'm shipping an independent website, as most the people here are.
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tantek so I'm content with "indieweb" - I don't need a broader, vaguer, more watered down, (and this case misleading due to the hate associated with) term like "indie tech"
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gRegor` doesn't plan to ship a phone anytime soon.
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gRegor` And if I did, it would obviously be called the g-phone.
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bret gPhone
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gRegor` No
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bret :p
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gRegor` :)
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tantek plans on turning his indieweb site into a UI worthy of being an "app" (homescreen shortcut) that anyone can "install" on their web-capable mobile device.
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ShaneHudson I'm fine with just 'website' personally. But either way, the problem here is not what Aral is doing. The problem is the confusion.
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aaronpk gPhone`
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gRegor` Lulz
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tommorris IndieWeb: we're all about love. Love, or indifference. Either is fine.
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gRegor` Only if Apple has the tm on gPhone
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tantek ShaneHudson: by using a vague term like "indie" and claiming "indie tech" encompases indieweb, Aral is causing confusion.
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gRegor` tommorris: That last sentence should be "Whatever." :)
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tantek on the contrary, making and shipping an "indie phone" is not a problem and has huge potential. so I hope he's successful with that.
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ShaneHudson Yeah, I can agree with that. But arguing/being annoyed about the term will not help, I doubt he is planning to change it any time soon.
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bret I want a firefox phone that I dont have to flash to update the browser
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Loqi gives bret a firefox phone that I dont have to flash to update the browser
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ShaneHudson I just want a PA :p
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bret thanks Loqi
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Loqi you're welcome
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gRegor` Turning a broad concept into a proper noun seems weird to me. Like "Independent Technology" in the manifesto.
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tantek ShaneHudson: see above, I'm not advocating arguing/being annoyed about the term, but rather, simply documenting the confusion caused, as evidenced by recent tweets.
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ShaneHudson It is marketing. Hopefully it will even help us all long-term, they say there is no such thing as bad publicity
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ShaneHudson tantek: Yeah, that's fair
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bret aaronpk how did HWC go last night?
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aaronpk bret: it didn't
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tantek ShaneHudson: "they say there is no such thing as bad publicity" and they're wrong. Historically there have been numerous such hyped terms like "Attention Economy", "Data Portability" etc.
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bret im thinking about some tips i have gotted from talks I have seen earlier.
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ShaneHudson Haha true
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bret err tips form talks from other meetup organizers
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tantek The roads of tech are littered with such marketing/hype first attempts, and every time one of them dies they make it so anything new is treated just as skeptically.
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aaronpk aw what's wrong with "Data Portability"? :P
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bret Im going to start helping to announce earlier, and avoid any discussion of "is it happening this week?"
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cuibonobo hmm. i feel like indiewebcamp has made amazing progress on the web technologies front while arkos has cool ideas for self-hosting private clouds. regardless of what aral thinks, they're both "independent technology". a label makes them easier to find.
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tantek so the sooner we call out and document /bulshytt when we see it, the sooner hype can be deflated and people instead focus on creating, building, shipping.
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bret aaronpk is esri free next week? should we try to host at mozilla if its available for variety?
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tantek cuibonobo: then let's focus on the positive. could you start /arkOS with a brief sentence or two about their cool ideas for self-hosting private clouds?
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tantek I see three mentions on the wiki that could be linked to a common /ArkOS page: http://indiewebcamp.com/Special:Search?search=arkos&fulltext=Search
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bret isnt arkOS trying to make hosting easier?
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bret similar to sandstorm or indiebox?
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aaronpk bret: yes esri is free
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ShaneHudson The Sandstorm demo looks really good
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bret basically my reading of all of those projects is: "most people shouldnt be using a VPS"
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tantek cuibonobo, some background here, others tried to create an umbrella term "data portability" to "cover" other successful efforts in the mid-2000s and also came up with something similar to a manifesto, but didn't really accomplish anything: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DataPortability
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bret or at least a traditional debian style VPS
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bret tantek i think i joined some google group way back in like 2006ish about that hah!
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tommorris sees "attention" and "DataPortability" and shudders
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tantek sorry for the flashbacks tommorris
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bret never seemed to go anywhere
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tantek right, that's the point. vague umbrella terms with manfestos rarely do.
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cuibonobo bret: i'd say that arkOS has goals that are most similar to indiebox, except it's stuff you can load onto an existing raspberry pi (rather than buy a thing)
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tantek cuibonobo: please put that on /ArkOS! :)
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bret cuibonobo indiebox works on raspi too iirc.
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bret but yeah, there is a hardware project too
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cuibonobo bret: i'm getting mixed messages from the indiebox faq. the top mentions an atom-based personal server, but a question near the bottom mentions RPi
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cuibonobo bret: and it seems like they killed their funding campaign. :/
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ShaneHudson indiebox hardware is atom-based. Indiebox software can run on RPi
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tantek cuibonobo: yes, indiebox stopped their crowdfunding when they realized they couldn't fulfill expectations. it was a very honorable thing to do.
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gregorlove.com edited /indie (+12) "quotation marks" (view diff)
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gRegor` should /ind.ie link to /indie under See Also?
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aaronpk is surprised to see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IndieWeb
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bret.io created /dataportability (+278) "Created page with "{{ stub }} Data portability was a discussion group with the intent to encourage data portability between web services and applications. == Posts about Data Portability == *[h..."" (view diff)
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bret tommorris you cool with that link being there?
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tommorris aaronpk: watchlisted.
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cuibonobo tantek: i had no idea that DataPortability was even a thing, so thanks for that. seems like their goals were similar to what indiewebcamp is trying to accomplish, but they put plumbing / manifestos before product
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tommorris bret: go for it.
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gRegor` Yep, just a few weeks old, aaronpk
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bret cuibonobo yeah because it wasnt going to make it. Not sure their current plans
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ShaneHudson tantek: I liked in your web directions talk the part where you went through how all IndieWeb technologies are simplifications of prior technologies. Seems DataPortability (as cuibonobo) would have benefited from that approach
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ShaneHudson *said
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tantek cuibonobo no problem. hopefully that helps explain some of the resistance to "umbrella terms" that don't seem to add any value (besides maybe hype for someone else)
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cuibonobo tantek: it does.
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cuibonobo ugh. wiki syntax. *groan*
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bret group/movement formation is a really interesting topic. Would love to know more about it from an anthropological perspective
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tommorris also, if our problem with namespace collision is with aral and indietech, that's fine. just think of Wikipedia: we have an email template called "We aren't Wikileaks".
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tantek cuibonobo apologies for the wiki syntax - feel free to just type in plain text with double-returns for paragraphs
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ShaneHudson bret: I think that would drive me insane :P
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tantek and others will be happy to wiki-syntax stuff
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cuibonobo tantek: i just open another page and crib from it
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tommorris I've had to explain that Wikipedia ≠ Wikileaks to cab drivers. ;)
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tantek tommorris - it's a challenge, but as you've said before the answer is to simply document it
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tantek tommorris: that's hilarious
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aaronpk <3 gRegor` can I please post that fax you sent me publicly?
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tommorris are we POSSEing to fax now? the only thing more awesome will be when we start POSSEing to alphanumeric pagers.
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aaronpk gRegor` just sent me a fax that said "Yo"
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ShaneHudson Hah
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gRegor` Totally, aaronpk. First indiefax Yo.
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gRegor` Just munge my number por favor
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tantek didn't realize Yo was released on April 1.
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gRegor` Ha!
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bret yo is basically a pager
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aaronpk my parents came up with a scheme for sending coded messages to a pager
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aaronpk like sending numeric codes that meant something to them
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ShaneHudson Yeah I thought Yo was a joke, till I realised it is just a MVP pager
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kylewm also on The Wire
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tommorris aaronpk: wait, were your parents drug dealers in the late 80s? ;-)
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aaronpk ha
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tantek cuibonobo: a good article about the end of Data Portability as a "movement" or whatever it was: http://tommorris.org/posts/3397 some choice quotes:
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tantek some of this is eerily predictive: "Almost every suggestion made seems to end up with someone getting hot under the collar about privacy, but making no practical suggestion as to solving the privacy problems, and also seemingly blind to all the ways people have tried to do this so far. "
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tommorris Semantic Web porn too. When that happens, I'm gonna be so smug.
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tommorris http://www.eod.com/devil/archive/semantic_web.html - "Semantic Web, proper noun - An attempt to apply the Dewey Decimal system to an orgy."
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tantek and then there's this: https://twitter.com/indietech/status/765168785
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@indietech Ok, I'm planning on launching this this Monday, February 3, 2008. (twitter.com/_/status/765168785)
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aaronpk but that was posted after feb 3
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tantek and feb 3 2008 is not a monday,
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tantek but mar 3 2008 is - perhaps that was a typo.
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tantek benwerd, you posted about some FB newsfeed analysis
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tantek http://civic.mit.edu/blog/natematias/uncovering-algorithms-looking-inside-the-facebook-news-feed
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tantek.com edited /Facebook (+186) "/* Aggregator */ Analysis of some of the algorithms Facebook uses - article" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Tent.io (+720) "/* Criticism */ summarize 2013 gist about Does Not Solve Real Problems" (view diff)
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benwerd tantek: yes, the author, natematias, is a friend
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benwerd I'm hoping he'll come to IndieWebCamp Cambridge
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Loqi benwerd: KartikPrabhu left you a message on 8/13 at 9:22pm: any chance of Known supporting /marginalia as a way for students to take and share margin-notes on course material?
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benwerd KartikPrabhu: Hell. Yes.
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KartikPrabhu benwerd: awesome! :)
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KartikPrabhu might have to get back working on it :P
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tantek.com edited /Facebook (+146) "/* Articles */ The era of Facebook is an anomaly" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu might be of interest here: http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2014/08/advertising-is-the-internets-original-sin/376041/?single_page=true
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KartikPrabhu Warning: quite long and I gave the un-paginated link
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