#indiewebcamp 2014-08-15

2014-08-15 UTC
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KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal: regarding the problem of finding parent element for fragmentions, would it be easier to insert <span fragmention></span> around the exact phrase?
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tantek KartikPrabhu: I tend to filter out any "sin" framing, can you give a tldr?
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KartikPrabhu tantek: have marked it as to read for tonight. it is too long for right now :P
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KartikPrabhu the basic premise seems to be that the original sin = advertising-based free (as in beer) business models
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KartikPrabhu again too long for it to be just that point so hoping the writer gives solutions on pg 3 or something ;)
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tantek KartikPrabhu: Nah, before that there were people hating on those who actually built things.
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tantek And frankly, ad based media predates web
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tantek *free media
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KartikPrabhu tantek: true. will give a speed read and surmise here for public benefit :)
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tantek Eg tv, radio
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tantek And if you keep peeling back the layers, is advertising the problem? Or is buying crap you don't need?
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tantek Or is it an (over)consumption based economy?
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tantek Such long rants rarely provide solutions.
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KartikPrabhu possibly. giving benefit of doubt here
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tantek Does the author have their own website?
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tantek Trying to pull it back on topic ;)
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jenmontes.com created /arkOS (+992) "Intro to arkOS" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu tantek: not one that is linked from the article.
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tantek thanks cuibonobo !
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KartikPrabhu "Ethan Zuckerman is director of the Center for Civic Media at MIT and principal research scientist at MIT’s Media Lab." so maybe he could be invited to IWC Cambridge or is it IWC MIT now?
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tantek Oh it's Ethan! He has it had his own site at some point.
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tantek KartikPrabhu: Definitely post/tweet at him inviting him to IWC Cambridge
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tantek He can easily setup his site to signin
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KartikPrabhu tantek: might be better if someone who is going to IWC Cambridge does the inviting?
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snarfed KevinMarks: noticed that you now show webmentions on recent kevinmarks.com posts via webmention.herokuapp.com (nice!)
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tantek Also, should we update the Cambridge etc IWC to use same wording as IWC UK?
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snarfed KevinMarks: just fyi though, you don't actually advertise the herokuapp wm endpoint on those pages, only on your home page, so you won't get any wms on the post pages
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KevinMarks_ ah oops
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KevinMarks_ thanks
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gRegor` tantek: re "I have a website" or "I want a website"? Probably a good idea.
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Loqi gives gRegor` a website"
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KevinMarks_ this is why I need a template system soon - doing it by hand is getting painful
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gRegor` pats Loqi on the head
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snarfed KevinMarks_: np! (also, re your q this morning about RTs and faves showing up as wms, your twitter account isn't actually signed up for bridgy :P)
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tantek KevinMarks: See /template :)
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tantek gRegor`: Yes in terms of want have
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tantek That change seems to have elicited a 100% positive repsonse
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tantek Which is rare for any change
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aaronpk tantek: a URL that is a collection of posts... would you say that is an h-entry with a bunch of child h-cites?
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tantek Aaronpk I guess I'd have to look at the real world examples first ;)
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aaronpk you're about to have one!
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KartikPrabhu tantek: summary: https://kartikprabhu.com/static/atlantic%20article.txt
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tantek But yes that makes the most sense
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aaronpk KartikPrabhu: you know what's funny about that summary? that's probably the outline the writer started with :)
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tantek Aaronpk I mean you could have an h-entry with complete h-entry children too
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aaronpk tantek: they are previously existing entries, and may also not be mine
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tantek And the children could each link with u-url u-uid to their permalinks
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: ha!
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tantek Aaronpk yes h-cite is fine too, and especially if you're abbreviating or summarizing
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KartikPrabhu is h-feed not good/correct for collections?
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aaronpk KartikPrabhu: not in this case I think
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aaronpk once I publish it, it won't change
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KartikPrabhu hmm
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tantek KartikPrabhu: Are you being funny?
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tantek A collection is a discrete set
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KartikPrabhu tantek: I have been known to be quite humourless
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aaronpk also there may be original content in the collection
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tantek A feed is not discrete
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KartikPrabhu feed has discrete post entries no?
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tantek KartikPrabhu: Just because x is a container of h-entry elements doesn't mean it works for all y containers of h-entry elements.
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KartikPrabhu yes. I was just asking to understand diff.
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tantek KartikPrabhu: No. A feed changes over time.
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tantek Hence a *feed*
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KartikPrabhu that makes sense
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tantek The word does have some meaning
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tantek That's why thought it was funny
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KartikPrabhu so aaronpk does not mean to update a collection once posted with more entries?
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aaronpk correct
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aaronpk although... we will se
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aaronpk e
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KartikPrabhu aah ok that makes more sense now :)
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cuibonobo "rough consensus and running code". words to live by tommorris! :D
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tantek Kartikprabhu Seemed like you were (deliberately?) completely ignoring any meaning of "feed"
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aaronpk likely I will be updating it during an event, then it will become static
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KartikPrabhu yes I was to get at an objection to it which you did give me :)
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: sort of like what I was thinking with my "series". A bunch of posts related to one topic. like chapters of a book. but then it would be all fixed
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KartikPrabhu no constant updates like a feed
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tantek KartikPrabhu: Feed means more than just "changing". In practice it also means things *leave*
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tantek As does "stream"
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aaronpk WHAT MAGIC
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KartikPrabhu tantek: "leave" as in deleted posts?
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aaronpk it's always somewhat disconcerting when your software does unexpected things
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KevinMarks_ fall off the bottom?
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aaronpk especially when they are positive things
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tantek No as in you don't show all posts for all time on your home page
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KartikPrabhu aah ok. so unlike RSS/Atom files which contain all posts for all time
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KevinMarks_ well, on my blog I turned up the # of posts a while ago so now it tends to show a few years
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tantek Huh? No they don't do that either
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KevinMarks_ the default for RSS was 15
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KartikPrabhu tantek: what? really... hmm
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tantek KartikPrabhu: What lol. Posts fall off the end of feeds.
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tantek What RSS/atom are you thinking of?
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KartikPrabhu hmm let me find an example maybe from Wordpress blogs
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/kevinmarks/500001427402407937/369585978 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc (webmention)
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tantek I wonder about "feed" vs "stream" though
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/500001427402407937/500001633984475136 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/repost/twitter/kevinmarks/500001427402407937/500001550874734592 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc (webmention)
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KevinMarks_ so, will brid.gy send a webmention to me for last night?
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tantek Stream or "updates" sounds more user friendly than "feed".
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/repost/twitter/kevinmarks/500001427402407937/500001550920454145 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc (webmention)
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snarfed KevinMarks_: yup it backfills a bit
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tantek "Feed" sounds mechanical.
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tantek Any other opinions on feed vs stream?
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KevinMarks_ "In RSS 0.91, various elements are restricted to 500 or 100 characters. There can be no more than 15 <item>s in a 0.91 <channel>." http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/rss/rss.html
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KevinMarks_ how about "flow" http://epeus.blogspot.com/2009/08/flow-past-web-even-better-than-realtime.html
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/BarnabyWalters/499918942048374784/14447132 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/UK#Organizers (webmention)
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KevinMarks_ I like stream as in Activity Stream
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KartikPrabhu tantek: KevinMarks_ looks like I was grossly mistaken and never bothered to count items in a feed. Though my Atom feed has all articles ever which should change :P
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tantek I wonder when we should cluster all our implemented post types into a small noun only alternative to Activity Streams.
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tantek Post Streams
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KevinMarks_ ≋
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snarfed KevinMarks++ nice find
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Loqi KevinMarks has 46 karma
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KartikPrabhu learnt something useful by asking dumb question :P
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KevinMarks_ well, there isn't a restriction on length, but downloading all of it is often a pain
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KevinMarks_ Inactivity Streams
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tantek KevinMarks: Downloading a dry violation is usually a pain ;)
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KartikPrabhu tantek: KevinMarks_ I like "streams" too I think Pastry Box uses that word https://the-pastry-box-project.net/stream
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KevinMarks_ "sushi boat web"
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tantek.com created /≋ (+20) "r" (view diff)
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tantek ;)
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KevinMarks_ Passivity Streams
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tantek KevinMarks: Why define as a negative?
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tantek We already know that antipattern
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aaronpk Calm Streams?
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tantek We call them all posts.
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KevinMarks_ intersting, this means "river" â¼®
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tantek So what's wrong with the obvious concatenation
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tantek Post streams
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aaronpk I like Post Streams
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KevinMarks_ Post is the default activity in AS
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kylewm are you guys trying to come up with a better synonym for 'feed' or defining a new term?
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tantek KevinMarks: Re "flow" I think that's already used better as state of flow like defined here http://cyborganthropology.com/Flow thanks aaronpk for the link
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KevinMarks_ right, I was menaing to imply that in the flow past post too
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tantek KevinMarks: Post is the only verb you need that's my point
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tantek kylewm: More like pick from existing terms
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kylewm tantek: sorry, s/define a new term/describe a different phenomenon
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tantek kylewm: Yes we are describing a more minimal subset of AS
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tantek We are simplifying AS as we did pingback
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tantek Removing that which is inessential in practice.
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tantek We've already been shipping it for a while with all these different post types.
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kylewm maybe the micro- or h- prefix?
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tantek Running code and rough consensus as it were
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tantek So it's about time we named it
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tantek kylewm: Not sure what the micro or h prefix has to do with it
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tantek And I'd rather avoid using plumbing for naming
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kylewm I knew you'd say that
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tantek "Post" is the user understandable term. As in blog post.
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KevinMarks_ though "blog" is coming to mean a blogpost too
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tantek It's an existing unassuming humble term.
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kylewm h-streams does make some sense being that it's { "h-event", "h-entry", "h-feed", etc. }
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tantek KevinMarks: Nah that died with MySpace
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aaronpk kylewm: no cause that would imply there's some new markup
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tantek kylewm: those are just one set of plumbing for what are noun-centric streams
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kylewm so we should stop calling it "h-card" and just call it a "card" (like with the other prefixes)
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tantek kylewm: Or profile or contact info
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tantek kylewm: Card is already super overloaded and ambiguous
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KevinMarks_ is about 50/50 for https://twitter.com/search?q=%22i%20wrote%20a%20blog%22&src=typd
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kylewm realizes this conversation is over his semantically head
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tantek I tried documenting /card
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kylewm s/over his semantically/semantically over his
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Loqi kylewm meant to say: realizes this conversation is semantically over his head
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KevinMarks_ I see 50/50 "i wrote a blog" vs "I wrote a blog post"
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KevinMarks_ blog stream?
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tantek KevinMarks: Sounds redundant
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tantek Blog is the collection
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aaronpk what's wrong with Post Stream?
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tantek Unless you're streaming a collection of whole blogs
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KevinMarks_ should be; it's coming to mean a longer post - a blogworthy one rather than just a tweet
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kylewm https://developers.app.net/reference/resources/post/streams/
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kylewm does that matter ^
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tantek kylewm: You tell me, does app.net matter?
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kylewm that might not matter ^
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kylewm tantek: no
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KevinMarks_ hm, FB has a "Post" button where twitter has a "tweet" one
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tantek KevinMarks: http://www.zeldman.com/2013/12/11/this-is-a-website/
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tantek "Me, I regret the day I started calling what I do here “blogging.” When I launched this website in 1995, I thought of what I was doing as “writing and publishing,” which is the case.
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tantek KevinMarks: Right, post is the generic term
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KevinMarks_ http://epeus.blogspot.com/2008/11/bloggings-not-dead-its-becoming-like.html
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tantek Tweet is the silo specific term that twitter failed trademarking
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KevinMarks_ "What has happened since is that the practices of blogging have become reified into mainstream usage. Through social networks and Twitter and Reader shared items and Flickr and HuffDuffer and all the other nicely-focused gesture spreading tools we have, the practice of blogging, of mediating the world for each other, has become part of the fabric of the net."
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tantek KevinMarks: Not sure I understand what you mean by that quote re Post Streams or any alternative phrase / name
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aaronpk just updated php-mf2-twitter-shim to parse photos!
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aaronpk so close to having collections done
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aaronpk I don't know what they should look like in the list view
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KevinMarks_ aaronpk: how are collections different from a tagged set?
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aaronpk what is a tagged set?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "tagged set" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=tagged+set
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aaronpk hm I wonder if I can ship this without the list view
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KevinMarks_ what are tags?
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Loqi tags or tagging refers to categorizing or labeling content according to free form words or phrases, including particular instances such as labeling the people in a photo, specifically known as people-tagging http://indiewebcamp.com/tags
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aaronpk as long as I don't tag any of my colections they won't show up in lists
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aaronpk KevinMarks_: I suppose I could get a similar effect by tagging a bunch of posts with a unique tag like the timestamp
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KevinMarks_ or a meaningful tag for that subset
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aaronpk the thing I get by creating a "collection" post type is that I can add additional content
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KartikPrabhu doesn't medium have collections
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KartikPrabhu yup: https://medium.com/the-story/what-the-hell-we-were-thinking-380bf329e275
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kylewm huh, permalink as alternate title
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: Medium has horirble URL practices
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KartikPrabhu that post has a slug, a title and a subtitle... jeez
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KartikPrabhu not to mention the slug should be "what the hell were we thinking"
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aaronpk first collection is up! http://aaronparecki.com/collections/2014/08/14/1/
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aaronpk gotta run
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KartikPrabhu ooo
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KartikPrabhu clicky
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: some CSS mishap with the "and of course, the route:" bit showing under the side bar
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KartikPrabhu like the photo display very neat
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kylewm really cool aaronpk, interesting that it has additional content (and of course the route)
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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tantek.com moved /How_the_Indie_Web_Hooks_into_Hosted_Communities to /2011/How_the_Indie_Web_Hooks_into_Hosted_Communities "IndieWebCamp 2011 session"
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bret ack
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bret where is the url for that change?
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tantek.com edited /collection (+382) "add aaronpk example, subheads" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /nick (+182) "stub" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /album (+17) "mostly just another name" (view diff)
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tantek bret - I think that's a MediaWiki limitation, I've never seen permalinks for moves or deletes on mediawiki installs
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KartikPrabhu tantek: can Loqi just linkfy the new URL?
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tantek makes sense
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tantek KartikPrabhu: the old and new URLs are already linkified
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-08-14#t1408068026425
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KartikPrabhu tantek: interesting then that my IRC client doesn't get them, maybe because they are relative URLs
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tantek KartikPrabhu: right, the lining of / phrases is purely a log thing
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tantek s/lining/linking
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Loqi tantek meant to say: KartikPrabhu: right, the linking of / phrases is purely a log thing
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KartikPrabhu hmm
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tantek.com edited /2013/UK/Indiemark (+27) "not a stub, link to context of IWCUK 2013" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /2013/UK/Indiemark (-12) "review compared to etherpad, minimal cleanup" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /User:Tantek.com (+155) "/* working on */ finish updating projects page, incorporating 2013/UK/Indiemark session into IndieMark" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /2014/reposts (+123) "add subheads for referencing, line breaks" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Falcon (+93) "/* implement reposts of tweets */ direct link to whiteboard sketches of presentation" (view diff)
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@TeamDigitalDEC Just finished our team screening of @t's The Once and Future IndieWeb. ^LZ http://www.webdirections.org/resources/tantek-celik-future-indieweb/ (twitter.com/_/status/500131095795761152)
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tantek goodness, team screening?!?
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techlifeweb Finally getting around to testing brid.gy for posting and Twitter is giving me { "error": "Error: HTTP Error 401: Unauthorized" }
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techlifeweb or rather bridgy is saying that when I try to post
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GWG Hello, techlifeweb
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techlifeweb hello GWG
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GWG How goes it?
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techlifeweb Pretty good.
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techlifeweb How about you?
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kylewm techlifeweb: I think you may've found a bug with new bridgy/twitter permissions granularity (see https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/258)
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GWG It's been a tough summer
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techlifeweb kylewm: thanks for the link. Guess I'll wait till they have it sorted.
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kylewm techlifeweb: I'm looking at the logs and stuff now
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kylewm will let you know if i find anything :)
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techlifeweb thanks
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techlifeweb.com created /User:Techlifeweb.com (+166) "Created page with "[http://techlifeweb.com Scott Kingery] is a systems analyst in San Diego, CA. Currently running WordPress. Testing plugins and writing documentation about my install."" (view diff)
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GWG Okay....
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tantek hey good start techlifeweb
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kylewm techlifeweb: can you disable publish and re-authorize? on https://www.brid.gy/twitter/techlifeweb
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tantek techlifeweb: now add yourself to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people!
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techlifeweb tantek: as we speak :) Need to get my picture in the right spot
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tantek :)
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techlifeweb.com edited /IRC_People (+104) "/* Nicknames */" (view diff)
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techlifeweb kylewm: ok, doing that next
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techlifeweb kylewm: same results. Even tried revoking access through twitter
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kylewm sorry techlifeweb :/ I'll file a bug
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techlifeweb kylewm: no problem. Happy to help test.
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kylewm techlifeweb: just to be thorough you had to authorize both Listen and Publish separately right?
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techlifeweb no. its really weird...
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techlifeweb when I click the disable button by publish, I'm sent to an Authorize screen with buttons to Authorize or Cancel
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techlifeweb sorry...sign in or cancel
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kylewm but clicking Sign in doesn't go anywhere
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kylewm ?
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techlifeweb Sign In doesnt do anything
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kylewm yep, I was seeing the same thing...
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kylewm and then it mysteriously started working :(
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techlifeweb cancel takes me to a screen to select back to bridgy
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techlifeweb I never get the option to enable posting
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techlifeweb it just looks like it is going to be able to post but the posts then throw the error I mentioned before
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kylewm my working theory is this is it's in a weird state where Bridgy thinks it has write permission but it doesn't, and so disabling it doesn't work somehow
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kylewm will have to defer to snarfed on the details though
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kylewm thanks for your help testing!!
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KevinMarks So is aaronpk's collection a storify type thing?
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techlifeweb no problem. if you or snarfed want me to test, ping me
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techlifeweb.com edited /User:Techlifeweb.com (+280) (view diff)
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tantek KevinMarks: do you have a good example of a storify collection? URL?
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KevinMarks This is an example with narrative between the collected tweets https://storify.com/charlesarthur/oh-hai-sexism
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kylewm another good one (from today) https://storify.com/jcolman/mike-monteiro-design-facebook
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tantek.com edited /schedule (+3) "update to UK" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /2014/UK/Schedule (+2262) "stub copying from /2014/SF/Schedule" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /2014/UK/Schedule (+42) (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /block (+71) "/* Twitter */ cite article about Twitter's false step with block that was more like a bad mute" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /comments-presentation (+65) "/* Discussion */ add pastrybox article about comments" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /User:Tantek.com (+198) "add links to pdf4 hackpad" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Federated_Social_Web_Summit (+178) "2010 talks" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /MediaWiki:Sidebar (-23) "use a logical "next" like for HWC" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /next-iwc (+21) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /events/next-hwc (+53) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /collections (+24) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /collection (+226) "silo examples, storify" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Guest_List (+3) "update to UK" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks: what horrifying story did you link me to on storify!
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tantek.com edited /Events (+3932) "move 08-13 HWC to recent, add 09-10 09-24 10-08 10-22 HWC to list" (view diff)
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KevinMarks One of the reasons shanley founded model view culture
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KartikPrabhu apart from being sexist that was one of most blatantly idiotic things i have seen
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KartikPrabhu the other-side response that is
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tommorris Mike Monteiro is awesome. His talk, "Fuck you, pay me" is a daily inspiration to me as a contractor. Just saying.
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KevinMarks There is a lot of stupid about
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@GlueData #OwnYourData presentation at a customer. The executive business case - unlocking working capital from your data! #sapmdm #data #datagov (twitter.com/_/status/500200884354424832)
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tantek.com edited /Template:Homebrew_Website_Club (+216) "09-10, 09-24, 10-08, 10-22" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /2014/Cambridge/Guest_List (+447) "signing up for IndieWebCamp Cambridge" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /2014/Cambridge/Guest_List (+0) "/* Capacity */ update counts" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /2014/Cambridge/Guest_List (+55) "p-name summary, linky heading" (view diff)
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tantek "Waiting for fonts.googleapis.com…"
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tantek and that's another Google service I won't be using to slow down my site
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tantek took over 10 seconds
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tommorris aaronpk: do you know if there is a way to add an Atom feed to Loqi? if so, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=IndieWeb&feed=atom&action=history might be useful.
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tommorris drops a picture into the IndieWeb WP article.
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barnabywalters you would be able to run them through http://waterpigs.co.uk/services/microformats-to-atom/ but they seem to insist on being in text format rather than HTML when requested by cURL
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barnabywalters http://shrewdness.waterpigs.co.uk/test/?url=http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-08-15
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cweiske accept header?
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barnabywalters cweiske: I tried adding .html, haven’t tried an accept header yet
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barnabywalters ottomh I can’t remember what cURL sends by default
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cweiske */*
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barnabywalters liberal — okay, I’ll add better accept headers them
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tommorris https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:IndieWebCamp
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tommorris added a photo and Commons link to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IndieWeb
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barnabywalters er, are we a set of software utilities?
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tantek no we're a community
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tommorris there's also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IndieWebCamp
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tommorris I'm tempted to redirect IndieWeb to IndieWebCamp
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barnabywalters one page lists tantek, crystal, amber and aaronpk, the other one lists tantek, amber, aaronpk and KevinMarks
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tantek the IndieWeb article is odd
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tantek and more inaccurate
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barnabywalters +1 for redirecting IndieWeb to IndieWebCamp
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barnabywalters merging anything useful into /IndieWebCamp
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tantek tommorris - ah looks like benwerd used the term unconference unintentionally
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tantek we explicitly started it as a BarCamp
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tantek so I'm going to edit that
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tommorris tantek: be sure to put a COI declaration on your user page. there's one on mine saying I'm involved in IWC
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tantek tommorris: not enough that I'm mentioned in the article? ;)
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tommorris en.wp tends to be a bit bonkers about COI declarations
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barnabywalters tommorris: what’s your user page? pretty sure you’re neither of these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Morris
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jonnybarnes whats a COI decleration?
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tommorris jonnybarnes: conflict of interest
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tommorris barnabywalters: I'm thankfully not wiki-notable.
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tommorris barnabywalters: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Tom_Morris
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barnabywalters ah, I missed out the underscore
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barnabywalters wow, that is… thorough
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tantek ah - the self-description already say 2-day creator camp
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tantek that's where I think we used to call it a BarCamp/DevCamp
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tantek checks archive.or
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tantek s/or/org
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Loqi tantek meant to say: checks archive.org
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tantek plus the naming
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jonnybarnes ok tantek
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jonnybarnes is this legit: https://github.com/sandeepshetty/authorship-test-cases/blob/master/h-entry_with_rel-author_and_h-card_with_u-url_pointing_to_rel-author_href.html
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tantek no that doesn't make any sense
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tantek and it's not based on any real world use-case that I know of
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tantek since clearly in a case like that markup, the h-card could be inside the h-entry
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jonnybarnes so its ok that my algo currently fails to find any authorship info for that HTML
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tantek I'd say so yes
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tantek when it fails on a real world example, then we can document that
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jonnybarnes it fails exactly as you said btw, doesnt find any author info inside the h-entry, finds the rel-author link but doesnt find any h-card in no_h-card.html and exits
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tantek.com edited /Posts_about_the_IndieWeb (+146) "IndieWeb ho! A brief intro to a little movement with big ideas" (view diff)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/kevinmarks/500001427402407937/11628 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/kyle_wm/499266903089479680/11628 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/UK/Guest_List (webmention)
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jonnybarnes barnabywalters: because you're last "checkin" was to a place, the map part of last seen in your homepage saidebar is blank
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barnabywalters jonnybarnes: yeah, it’s a little broken. My checkins are not very polished
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/BarnabyWalters/499918942048374784/11628 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/UK#Organizers (webmention)
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jonnybarnes barnabywalters: you're sites failed me! I thought it was going to have some h-feed markup
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jonnybarnes does anone know a site that uses h-feed?
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barnabywalters jonnybarnes: there’s a h-feed on my homepage! http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwaterpigs.co.uk%2F
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barnabywalters and on all my other feed pages
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barnabywalters as always, see http://indiewebcamp.com/h-feed
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jonnybarnes oh yeah, you've put it on the <html>
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barnabywalters yep, I tend to put one root microformats2 classname on the <html> element
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jonnybarnes barnabywalters: does php-mf2 not expose that there was a h-feed: https://gist.github.com/jonnybarnes/4ddf5606867db75fb0f0
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barnabywalters jonnybarnes: that is very strange
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barnabywalters what version of php-mf2 do you have?
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jonnybarnes 0.2.9
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jonnybarnes can you reproduce?
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barnabywalters jonnybarnes: yep, I can, looking into it now
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jonnybarnes barnabywalters: new gist: https://gist.github.com/jonnybarnes/61a2bc9e360b12d53b1f
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jonnybarnes so its not the php-mf2 completely ignores all h-feeds
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barnabywalters this requires further debugging, I’ll look into it properly after work
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barnabywalters thanks for finding it! can you raise this as an issue (with your gist links) on https://github.com/indieweb/php-mf2?
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jonnybarnes issue #55
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jonnybarnes barnabywalters: just checking, should the output for h-feeds be as in the second gist? as in the all the arrays with type=h-entry will be children of the array with type=h-feed?
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barnabywalters jonnybarnes: yep, that’s correct
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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_sgreger adactio: my site sent a webmention to one of your notes earlier today, but it didn't show up as a comment. are notes limited to brid.gy webmentions only? (bug/feature? or maybe a problem with my webmention implementation...)
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@oxfordgeeks @benwerd No date as yet for December - are you offering an indieweb talk or mircoslot?! Thanks (twitter.com/_/status/500263328275775488)
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tommorris _sgreger: have you got a link to the post?
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_sgreger tommorris: moving to my original nick without the leading underscore, just restored my password...
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sgreger tommorris: this is the post http://sebastiangreger.net/2014/08/minimum-actionable-dataset-data-obesity/ - sending out webmentions through the wordpress plugin by pfefferle
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sgreger in theory at least (it has worked well so far)
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tommorris sgreger: there's some parsing errors in the HTML
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tommorris sgreger: on line 114, there's class="post hentry h-entry"itemscope="itemscope"
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tommorris no space between the attributes
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tommorris that might be tripping the parser up
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tommorris Firefox may be parsing it fine, but I'm not sure php-mf2 is
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tommorris Hmm, no, the online PHP parser seems to handle that fine
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tommorris should pinch broken HTML as regression tests for Python and Scala microformats parsers.
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tommorris Don't know why that's failing
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sgreger uh, that could well explain the issue. fixed the markup, now i need to see how to trigger the webmentions again ;)
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tommorris you can just paste webmentions into Jeremy's site
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tommorris oh, here's a simple thing - adactio only takes comments up to a certain number of days
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tommorris so it might be going through okay but the comments are just turned off
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adactio tommorris: No, I've stopped doing that since implementing webmention—you can comment on any post at any time (but I only show the form for entering a URL on journal entries, not notes).
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tommorris ah, sgreger, adactio is here. I can go back to fiddling with gigantic databases like I'm supposed to be.
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sgreger well, now it worked. it was my markup bug indeed. i had a hunch, but was also wondering whether there might be a difference in implementation on the receiving site since the URL form is not shownd
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sgreger tommorris: thank you for pointing out the error
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tommorris adactio: just out of interest, are you using php-mf2 or something else to parse HTML for webmentions?
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sgreger adaction: thanks for the clarification - the hiccup was indeed on my end
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adactio sgreger: yup, it's showing up now: http://adactio.com/notes/7288/
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tommorris (It'd be useful for me and for barnabywalters and probably for glennjones to know who is using which parsers on theri site.)
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cweiske you could all use application/xhtml+xml as mime type for your html pages
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cweiske then your browser would refuse to render the pages if they contain errors
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cweiske effective way to get rid of errors :)
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tommorris ...or surfacing them.
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cweiske which in turn makes you fix them
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cweiske because people can't view the page anymore
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cweiske I do that at cweiske.de/tagebuch/
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cweiske but only for clients that have that type in their accept headers
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sgreger cweiske: i'll look into that. i wonder how application/xhtml+xml and html5 get along (apparently at least a XML prolog is needed before the DOCTYPE, and namespace declaration in the html tag)
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cweiske I don't use HTML5 on my site, so I did not check
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tommorris the HTML5 spec includes a way to write it as XML
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@mathewi @zseward @davewiner @mims: This is also what @dangillmor has been talking about with the #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/500276435953922048)
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cweiske if you're interested: http://p.cweiske.de/138
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cweiske my rewrite rule for the content type header for supporting clients
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sgreger thanks, i'll see if i can get that to work with my wordpress setup
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tommorris sees that the Camino browser is no more.
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tommorris Gecko + native OS X GUI was win back in the day.
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tommorris also, Dave Winer has thoughts on what a blog does: http://scripting.com/2014/08/15/whatDoesABlogDoIn2014.html
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cweiske sgreger, note that disqus breaks with application/xhtml+xml
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cweiske and no, they do not want to fix that
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sebastiangreger.net edited /IRC_People (+59) "/* Nicknames */ added myself" (view diff)
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sebastiangreger.net edited /User:Sebastiangreger.net (+57) "/* Sebastian Greger */ hcard added" (view diff)
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sgreger cweiske: no problem, i anyways prefer to store/syndicate comments on my site ...in true indieweb fashion ;)
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ben_thatmustbeme good morning #indiewebcamp
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GWG pfefferle: By the way, is there any news on my Pull Request?
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pfefferle oh SH%$&§t… thanks for the reminder… will have a look at it, this weekend
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pfefferle sorr<
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pfefferle sorry
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GWG No rush. Just curious
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pfefferle GWG ;)
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ben_thatmustbeme so who is doing private postings at the moment?
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tommorris Me. On Facebook. ;-)
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aaronpk I am. I think barnabywalters too?
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ben_thatmustbeme been reading http://indiewebcamp.com/indieweb-messaging
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aaronpk so sorry about that page
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ben_thatmustbeme oh its okay
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aaronpk let me see if I can fix it quickly
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ben_thatmustbeme so I was thinking about the whole, auth directly between servers
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aaronpk yeah that's definitely needed
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ben_thatmustbeme seems somewhat messy to have to do a pull of the page twice, once without the key and once with
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ben_thatmustbeme if you pulled with the key first, you wouldn't know if its a private message or not
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ben_thatmustbeme I was trying to think of other ways to do that
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aaronpk interesting point
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ben_thatmustbeme oh, and as for server to server, couldn't we in theory automate validation with the new GPG key auth method
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aaronpk I'd rather not tie this to GPG
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ben_thatmustbeme true, but its the only way i see to do the initial negotiation without human interaction
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ben_thatmustbeme anyway, i'm talking about two things at once and starting to confuse myself
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aaronpk yes
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ben_thatmustbeme so forget the server to server, the webmention bit
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aaronpk you could outline the two issues on a new section on that page
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ben_thatmustbeme indeed, i was planning to, just wanted to get some reactions here too
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aaronpk huh actually that page isn't as out of date as I thought
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ben_thatmustbeme was thinking the private message webmention could say in the mention that it is private
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aaronpk like a new parameter that says "btw fetching this source is going to require authentication"
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ben_thatmustbeme exactly
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aaronpk I wonder what other protocols have done that's similar?
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aaronpk that seems reasonable tho
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aaronpk I'm suuuuuuper hesitant to add anything to webmention, so I would want to exhaust all other possibilities first
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ben_thatmustbeme the other option i was thinking is a markup in the html that would inform the page that its private
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ben_thatmustbeme sure you still do a double pull on the initial request but after that you can just always include a key (if we work out how to negotiate one)
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aaronpk ben_thatmustbeme: have you seen one of my private messages yet?
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ben_thatmustbeme no
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aaronpk k one sec
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aaronpk ben_thatmustbeme: http://aaronparecki.com/messages/2014/08/15/1/
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ben_thatmustbeme hmm, the first post itself can include a private key
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ben_thatmustbeme just a random string
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aaronpk so you see the message?
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ben_thatmustbeme then you have some initial key negotiated. need to figure out how to make that transparent
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ben_thatmustbeme yes
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aaronpk note that I put a little header "To: ben.thatmustbe.me"
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ben_thatmustbeme i did
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aaronpk and if you look at the markup it's a property called "recipient"
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ben_thatmustbeme u-recipient, i like that
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aaronpk for the sake of everyone else, here's the parsed JSON of the message https://gist.github.com/aaronpk/67e7391908020c1588db
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ben_thatmustbeme one could assume that any webmention to a private post is also private
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ben_thatmustbeme thus removing the issue of having to pull twice
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ben_thatmustbeme I'm trying to find a way to get it to the point that I don't even care about the webmention part of it at all, I want to have one stream of messages between us, that I could parse out in to what appears to be an instant messenger
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ben_thatmustbeme multiple pulls is going to slow down the turn around time for receiving messages
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ben_thatmustbeme plus we really cannot have to log in to every person's site
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aaronpk don't think of it as "log in"
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aaronpk in order for you to get see that post, you need to include an access token that my server issued to you
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aaronpk one way is you can use the web UI
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ben_thatmustbeme indeed. its just that i need to get that token to my server
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aaronpk or
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aaronpk your server needs to be able to get it in the first place
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ben_thatmustbeme yes
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aaronpk you've pointed your site at an authorization endpoint right?
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ben_thatmustbeme yeah, i use indieauth
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aaronpk .com
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ben_thatmustbeme yes
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aaronpk k so imagine for a moment that you were using your own auth server
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ben_thatmustbeme sorry, that could be misconstrued
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ben_thatmustbeme yeah, i saw that case, but i don't think its realistic to all run our own auth server
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aaronpk no, but just for the sake of argument
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ben_thatmustbeme okay
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ben_thatmustbeme hey ShaneHudson
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aaronpk i'm gonna walk through this step by step mostly for myself. the first thing that happens in my "sign in" form is you have to enter your domain name. then I generate a login URL that is based on your auth server
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aaronpk then your auth server challenges you to prove who you are, at which point it generates an authorization code that it sends back to my server
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ben_thatmustbeme wait, i thought you send me to your auth server, not mine
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aaronpk ack this is confusing in this direction
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aaronpk I need to pretend I'm signing in to your site
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ben_thatmustbeme yeah, this is confusing
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aaronpk ok so I'm looking at your sign in box
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aaronpk I say "hey i'm aaronparecki.com"
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ben_thatmustbeme Site A and Site B (Aaron and Ben not Alice and Bob :P)
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aaronpk then click "sign in"
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aaronpk at that point your site says "oh yeah? prove it"
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aaronpk and redirects me to my auth endpoint with a bunch of application state in the query string
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ben_thatmustbeme wait, wait
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ben_thatmustbeme i think thats the other way around
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aaronpk this is really confusing because of the two roles indieauth.com plays
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ben_thatmustbeme i direct you to MY auth server, not yours
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aaronpk nope, you have to direct me to my auth server
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ben_thatmustbeme https://indieauth.com/developers
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ben_thatmustbeme the form posts to my choice of auth server
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aaronpk that's just your auth implementation
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ben_thatmustbeme i don't curl your site and redirect there
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aaronpk you do (or in this case indieauth.com does for you)
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ben_thatmustbeme but i don't trust your auth server
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aaronpk you don't have to
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aaronpk try signing in to ownyourgram.com, that's an implementation of this
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aaronpk if you want to see the code, it's here https://github.com/aaronpk/OwnYourGram/blob/master/controllers/auth.php#L83
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ben_thatmustbeme ah okay, so this is different from the webUI login method
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aaronpk it's all the same
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aaronpk but it's confusing because you can use indieauth.com/developers but also you can use indieauth.com as your authorization_endpoint
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ben_thatmustbeme yes
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ben_thatmustbeme okay, so you are right, i'm confusing the two, we are looking at only the auth_endpoint bit
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aaronpk exactly
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aaronpk which is why I was saying for the sake of argument let's say you built your own authorization endpoint
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ben_thatmustbeme yes, A is visiting B, B runs his own auth endpoint
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aaronpk ok take a step back for a sec
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ben_thatmustbeme oka
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ben_thatmustbeme y
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aaronpk let's say you implemented private posts like I did, and that there is a URL like ben.thatmustbe.me/secret/100
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ben_thatmustbeme okay
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aaronpk and let's say it's a message intended for me
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aaronpk what I need is for you to issue me an access token that I will then include in the request for that page
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aaronpk the important bit is that you're issuing the access token from your token endpoint
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aaronpk so if we work backwards...
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aaronpk I'll make a request to your token endpoint for a token, which needs to look something like this http://indiewebcamp.com/token-endpoint#Access_Token_Request
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aaronpk the request will include "code" and "me" parameters
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aaronpk your token endpoint will try to verify the authorization code against *my* authorization endpoint which you can find from my home page
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aaronpk assuming it is valid, you can issue an access token
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ben_thatmustbeme oh, interesting
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aaronpk so really my server just needs to be able to generate an authorization code at my own authorization endpoint
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aaronpk then this will work magically
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ben_thatmustbeme yes, because I can just always use that code to access your site as me
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aaronpk you mean access token right?
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ben_thatmustbeme yeah
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aaronpk the authorization codes are one-time use
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ben_thatmustbeme oy, this takes me back a few months to when I first worked all this code out
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aaronpk yeah me too
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ben_thatmustbeme its a good refresher
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aaronpk ok so you could probably do this right now on my site
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aaronpk actually not sure about that, I may not have the right pieces in place
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aaronpk i use tokens.indieauth.com as my token endpoint, which should actually issue an access token for you
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ben_thatmustbeme okay, you generate a code, send it to me, i pass the code to my token endpoint with your URL, the token endpoint goes to your site, validates the code, then issues a token that is returned to you
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aaronpk yes I think that's correct
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ben_thatmustbeme to be clearer, that token is given to me, that i then return to you
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aaronpk except I think my server would be the one that talks to your token endpoint directly
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ben_thatmustbeme yeah
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ben_thatmustbeme i get it
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aaronpk i'm getting "bad request" from your token endpoint tryign this
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ben_thatmustbeme hmm, let me look in to that real quick
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ben_thatmustbeme i require code, me, redirect_uri, client_id and state all be set
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ben_thatmustbeme okay, starting some logging
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kylewm does it make sense that bridgy says "likes this" for facebook and "favorited this" (past tense) for twitter?
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kylewm ^ snarfed
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gRegor` "favorites this" seems clunky
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kylewm also, any styling suggestions for better distinguishing likes from comments? https://kylewm.com/note/2014/08/09/1#mentions
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jonnybarnes how often is Sandeep around?
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gRegor` Hovering over the star number on Twitter pops up "Favorited x times"
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ben_thatmustbeme okay, give it a shot now aaronpk
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kylewm gRegor`: snarfed: interesting, so the answer is yes, those are the correct tenses for each silo
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gRegor` I've not gotten there myself, kylewm, but on notes I was thinking of giving commenters a slightly larger avatar and like/repost only interactions would get a smaller avatar and all on one line.
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gRegor` Similar to tumblr
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barnabywalters kylewm: I have a little icon next to each response
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barnabywalters star for likes
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kylewm ah, both good ideas, thanks
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gRegor` Star for FB likes and Twitter favorites?
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kylewm barnabywalters: i already have you open in another tab :)
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jonnybarnes if I have a tests folder with vaious .php files, is there a way of telling phpunit to only run the tests in one of the php files?
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk, looking at my code, I always use my auth endpoint for the token endpoint, i'm not pulling the site from the me=
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jonnybarnes or even a single test in one of the php files?
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gRegor` jonnybarnes: Yeah, but I don't know it well off the top of my head. barnabywalters probably knows how
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gRegor` Believe it's something like passing the namespace/classname/filename of tests to run
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barnabywalters jonnybarnes: yep, just pass the path to the file
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barnabywalters or if you want to filter by test, --filter testName
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jonnybarnes as in run `./vendor/bin/phpunit --filter testIWantToRun`
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barnabywalters gRegor`: on which topic, I still haven’t given your PR the attention it deserves — sorry! I’ll make sure to get on that this weekend
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gRegor` No worries.
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barnabywalters jonnybarnes: yep, or you can pass in partial patterns
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kylewm.com edited /User:Kylewm.com (+366) "/* personal site */ add better control over what is excerpted for reposts" (view diff)
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aaronpk ben_thatmustbeme: still got bad request
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aaronpk ben_thatmustbeme: are you using this? https://github.com/indieweb/indieauth-client-php
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jonnybarnes So heres a simple (read naive) implementation of the authorship algorithm
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jonnybarnes https://github.com/jonnybarnes/webmentions-parser/blob/master/src/Authorship.php
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aaronpk ben_thatmustbeme: if so, you can use this function to find my auth endpoint https://github.com/indieweb/indieauth-client-php#authorization-endpoint
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jonnybarnes barnabywalters: have you had chance to look at that bug?
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barnabywalters jonnybarnes: nope, been doing “work” work
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jonnybarnes you work somehere that lets you sit on a non-work IRC channel all day?
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jonnybarnes awesomes!
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk, I have some fix up to do on that side. my question is this, if I trust your auth endpoint instead of my own, what stops you from doing the same and giving yourself a token with a post scope?
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aaronpk nothing. but it's up to your micropub endpoint to decide what users you allow to post
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aaronpk actually before you even get there your token endpoint can decide whether to issue a token that has the "post" scope
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aaronpk I believe my token endpoint, tokens.indieauth.com, will issue tokens all day long with whatever is requested of it. but my micropub endpoint only allows tokens for aaronparecki.com to create posts.
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ben_thatmustbeme which makes sense
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ShaneHudson I need to get micropub working soon, will help automate things
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ben_thatmustbeme looks like i'll be using another of your libraries aaronpk :P
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aaronpk :)
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jonnybarnes my micropub works quite nicely, all my notes are now done through jonnybarnes.uk/notes/new
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk you should probably note that the indieauth-client-php depends on link-rel-parser-php
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aaronpk if you use composer it Just Works™
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aaronpk https://github.com/indieweb/indieauth-client-php/blob/master/composer.json
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aaronpk oh man big differences in imagemagick 2 vs 3
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aaronpk compare http://aaronparecki.com/metrics/2014/08/15/055037/files/sleep.png vs http://aaronparecki.com/metrics/2014/08/14/061509/files/sleep.png
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aaronpk resized from a square image like https://jawbone.com/nudge/image/e/1408112797/IBuCmB0QfdQOfQCVhxwPxw.png
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tantek ooh that first one with rounded corners and black bg looks much nicer
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aaronpk ha, that's the older imagemagick
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tantek wat - it says 08/15
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aaronpk that's actually more like what I expected to happen. the crisp edges anyway, not so much the rounded corners)
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aaronpk yeah, cause my server has older PHP than my laptop, so all new imports will be using the old imagemagick. yesterday I did a batch processing of them on my laptop
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aaronpk I like the sharp edges and rounded corners, but I don't like the black background. unfortunately I don't know how to force this to happen.
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk, should work now
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aaronpk ben_thatmustbeme: ok trying again
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ben_thatmustbeme ack, what the hell
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ben_thatmustbeme grrr
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aaronpk GOT A TOKEN
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ben_thatmustbeme now why isn't quill.p3k though
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ben_thatmustbeme hmmm
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aaronpk if I curl your home page with that token should I be seeing your private contact info?
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tantek and does your home page support https so that the token can't be sniffed en route?
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ben_thatmustbeme hmm, not yet, i don't think anything uses the tokens yet except for micropub
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aaronpk and yes SSL is important for all this
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ben_thatmustbeme it does not yet, but it will
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ben_thatmustbeme yeah, i know, I was more concerned with making it work up until now
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aaronpk yeah
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ben_thatmustbeme still confused why quill.p3k.io isn't getting anything back from the token endpoint
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aaronpk hm you know what I could probably generate that sleep image in SVG relatively easily
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aaronpk since the color determines the height, all I have to do is read the bottom row of pixels and I'd get all the data
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tantek or HTML+CSS, since it's so boxy and stuff ;)
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tantek in fact, probably less HTML+CSS than SVG :D
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aaronpk well I do actually want a png version of it in the end
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aaronpk so that it shows up as a u-photo property
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aaronpk nvm I mean svg is probably fine for the u-photo property
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tantek and if you're really going to stick with bar-chart-like appearance, Google Charts works too
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aaronpk but the important thing is that the sleep h-entry has a photo
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tantek just pass it a bunch of parameters, and get back a PNG presto
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aaronpk not gonna tie this to google
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aaronpk most things know how to handle SVGs in <img> tags right?
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Loqi [mention] http://bavatuesdays.com/teaching-without-wordpress-exploring-the-known-world/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (pingback)
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Loqi [mention] http://bavatuesdays.com/teaching-without-wordpress-exploring-the-known-world/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention (pingback)
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aaronpk "one of the things we realized when starting up Domain of One’s Own is that WordPress has become too central to our thinking—risking myopia" http://bavatuesdays.com/teaching-without-wordpress-exploring-the-known-world/
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aaronpk should I add that quote to /monoculture ?
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ben_thatmustbeme okay, now this is really screwy... using discoverAuthorizationEndpoint when it is given 'http://ben.thatmustbe.me'
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ben_thatmustbeme just silently fails
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aaronpk oh dear
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ben_thatmustbeme and its only from my server... oddly
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aaronpk let me take a look
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aaronpk oh
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aaronpk uh
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ben_thatmustbeme no, actually weird
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tantek aaronpk - perhaps add it to /WordPress#Criticism##Monoculture
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tantek pulls out the fragfragmention
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ben_thatmustbeme let me look in to this more... its returning a 200 OK
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aaronpk did you just use a fragmention *and* an ID selector?
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tantek boom
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aaronpk except there is no #Criticism section
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tantek I like pointing to things as if they exist, presuming they'll be created just by pointing to them.
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aaronpk ha
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tantek and I thought there was actually...
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tantek ah Problems
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk, its not just on my server, must be something wrong parsing my site perhaps
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aaronpk #Problems is a sub-section of adding indieweb elements to wordpress
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tantek argh, so are a bunch of the other sections errantly
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aaronpk oh no
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aaronpk ben_thatmustbeme: oh dear, it's not declaring that php-mf2 is a dependency
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aaronpk and oh hey https://github.com/indieweb/indieauth-client-php/issues/1
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snarfed KevinMarks: fun to see recent interaction webmentions on old articles of yours, e.g. http://epeus.blogspot.com/2006/01/how-apple-lost-its-web-video-mojo-and.html#comments
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snarfed (found via https://www.brid.gy/blogger/3200930 and https://www.brid.gy/twitter/kevinmarks)
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tantek.com edited /WordPress (+659) "fix subhead levels, Problems are more Criticism, separate out and explicitly call out criticism mitigations" (view diff)
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kylewm tommorris: I really like the idea of showing edits to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IndieWebCamp and /IndieWeb here
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aaronpk I've definitely toyed with the idea of making Loqi subscribe to an RSS feed and show the feed entries here
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tantek add enwp.org/webmention and enwp.org/microformats also
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aaronpk ben_thatmustbeme: try with the new 0.1.4 release of indieauth-client. I'm able to get a result for your site with that
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aaronpk but it does require the "http" prefix
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kylewm.com edited /Loqi (+284) "/* Ideas */" (view diff)
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aaronpk thx
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kylewm maybe Loqi could be a micropub consumer that can subscribe to arbitrary services :)
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kylewm Loqi didn't like that idea
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Loqi grins profusely
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aaronpk there isn't really a concept of being a micropub consumer, micropub is for creating things
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kylewm "provide a micropub_endpoint"
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tantek your site is a micropub consumer
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aaronpk ha wait so you want Loqi to have a micropub endpoint that would make him say things here?
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aaronpk I have been wanting Loqi to have his own website soon... probably powered by p3k
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kylewm yeah so like if you subscribed him to OwnYourGram, he would report instagram pictures
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kylewm or if there was a RSS -> micropub service...
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aaronpk whaaatt
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tantek kylewm, micropub is push. RSS is pull.
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tantek impedance mismatch
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kylewm (just trying to brainstorm ways to offload some work from aaronpk's queue without him having to open source Loqi)
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aaronpk well I will tell you a secret. there is a UDP endpoint you can send things to that will make Loqi say things.
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aaronpk that's how wiki edits go here. it's from the original MediaWiki RecentChanges bot
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kylewm UDP! fascinating
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aaronpk so hypotheticaly... if someone did want to write an RSS consumer that makes Loqi say things, you could run that anywhere and I could give you the secret codes to make Loqi talk
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kylewm oh, or just run another RecentChanges bot i suppose
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aaronpk there can be only one bot!
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@techlifeweb Wordpress posted the bug I found in Publicize #indieweb http://techlifeweb.com/social/wordpress-posted-the-bug-i-found-in-publicize-indieweb/ (twitter.com/_/status/500349200551268353)
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ben_thatmustbeme so arronpk, now that you have a token (and i have SSL ordered) what do you think, a curl with Authorization in the header? or access_token in the post?
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aaronpk you'll probably have to accept both
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aaronpk but the header will be used for GET requests
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ben_thatmustbeme indeed
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gRegor` tantek: 8/23 HWC event is set up. Can you edit the Mediawiki:Sidebar? It's not editable by mere mortals.
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tantek gRegor`: ah, now that you're back, notice the sidebar has changed to solve this problem :D
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gRegor` Also SF/PDX venues to be confirmed on 8/23 page.
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aaronpk tantek: clever!
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gRegor` Ah, nice
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gRegor` I use the new theme, so I forget when I open the wiki in Firefox and I'm not logged in there, that it's cached.
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tantek maybe the next time a design iteration is attempted it can build on that work
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gRegor` I wonder if that means some people might have a past event stuck in the sidebar based on the cache.
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gRegor` How frequently does it refresh, aaronpk?
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aaronpk well next-hwc will fix that too
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aaronpk i believe it's cached until the page is edited
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gRegor` Only if they access it going forward
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gRegor` Hm
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gRegor` I'm looking at it in Firefox, not logged in, and it shows 8/13 event
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tantek gRegor`: any updates to fixes / iteration on the "new theme" or is it stuck at demo time from June?
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gRegor` tantek: Been busy and haven't worked on it in a couple weeks, but I did make several typography improvements in http://gregorlove.com/indiewebcamp.css. If you put that CSS file on tantek.com you can try it.
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gRegor` Unfortunately actual template updates, like to fix the top navigation links, will probably require setting up a local MediaWiki install so I can test it. :/
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tantek gRegor`: presumably I can instead @import it live
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gRegor` Yeah, should work.
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aaronpk yeah you can do css stuff live with the neat hack. but template updates will require you to set up a local mediawiki (of the specific version)
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tantek yeah the top nav links changes were kind of a usability disaster for anyone that edits the wiki (which frankly should be the #1 user type considered for the design, since our priority should be freshest/best content first)
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tantek I hope any further design iterations have a majority of folks who are actively editing the wiki working on them.
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tantek Rather than from a purely "reader" perspective.
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aaronpk that's sort of the problem. I think most of us who edit the wiki aren't too put off by the current design, so it's not a huge itch to scratch.
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aaronpk (correct me if i'm wrong)
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gRegor` I hope it has both perspectives, actually. That's how I'm approaching it.
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tantek aaronpk - there's plenty of nits/warts I notice all the time
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tantek gRegor`: I fine with having both perspectives, I'd just prefer a majority editor perspective, since that should be the #1 design center.
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gRegor` Fixing accesskeys for common wiki functions would be nice, too. Template updates again, though.
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tantek right, I do miss Ctrl-E to edit, P to preview, S to save
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gRegor` I guess I'm in the minority, but I've always thought the wiki design looked a bit dated. I don't edit as heavily as tantek, but editing with the new theme hasn't been a barrier for me yet. Definitely still needs improvement.
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gRegor` tantek: When you edit, how frequently do you hit the top-level "Edit" vs the section edit links?
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tantek not sure - but maybe about 50/50?
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gRegor` just noticed the section "edit" links in the new theme are proportionally sized to the heading. Adds to list to fix.
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tantek and hiding the top level Edit link was an unacceptable blocker - that's what clued me in that there wasn'n enough editor-centric design going on
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@kevinmarks @bmann @_amz3_ of course have a link http://indiewebcamp.com/github (twitter.com/_/status/500354769353834496)
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gregorlove.com edited /wiki/redesign (+105) "/* Issues */" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /wiki/redesign (+12) "/* Issues */" (view diff)
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kylewm gRegor`: (this was a shitty, troll-filled thread but) this person also said it looked "dated" https://twitter.com/thecodezombie/status/499835177305403393
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@thecodezombie @scott_riley for a web conference, you'd also think that their website would look less, well...shit / 1995. (twitter.com/_/status/499835177305403393)
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gRegor` Yeah, I saw that
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gRegor` I wouldn't say it's *that* dated.
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gRegor` remembers his 1995 Geocities site.
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gRegor` Let's . . . let's never talk of this again.
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gRegor` :)
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tantek wait I don't understand the fedora comment - is that a good thing or a bad thing? https://twitter.com/scott_riley/status/499825235240431617
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@scott_riley The first person attending this event is wearing a fedora so that pretty much tells all I need to know. http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/UK/Guest_List#Creators (twitter.com/_/status/499825235240431617)
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kylewm not worth it to try to understand, tantek
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tantek I presume it was some sort of "hip" reference thus a good thing
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gRegor` Unfortunately a lot of "bros" wear fedoras. It's kind of become a shorthand for douches
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tantek oh no, really?
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tantek [citation needed]
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tantek haha funny, the other guy who confused IndieWebCamp with ind.ie rants is defending the guy in the fedora! https://twitter.com/zachinglis/status/499912081651806208
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@zachinglis @scott_riley Al is a good friend. So watch it. (twitter.com/_/status/499912081651806208)
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tantek zoms #notallfedoras
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gRegor` I honestly don't know a lot of the history of it. http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/fedora-shaming might help
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tantek wow now that's a citation
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tantek is tempted to wear a fedora to IWC UK
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gRegor` Haha
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kylewm fedora solidarity
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kylewm genuine question, what's wrong with the wikipedia default skin? http://indiewebcamp.com/?useskin=vector
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kylewm why not use that as the basis?
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gRegor` heyy, didn't know that was even there.
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tantek wow didn't notice adactio jumped into that thread!
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aaronpk I think because it screams "wiki" which is an immediate turnoff to some people
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tantek that ^^^
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tantek s/that/This.
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Loqi tantek meant to say: This. ^^^
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kylewm ah, good answer
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gRegor` Thus. ^^^
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KevinMarks_ barnabywalters: shrewdness is not sending a redirct url to indieauth when I try to login with kevinmarks.com
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barnabywalters KevinMarks_: weird, looking into it now
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elliottucker hey, has anyone bother trying to do use google+ profile for link backs? I get an unknown error when authenticating
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tantek so, IndieWebCamp logo'd fedoras would be out then?
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KevinMarks_ how is there not a wikipedia page fro Amber?
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tantek KevinMarks: Wikipedia's double standards for notability are well known (when it comes to gender)
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tantek (still that is shocking)
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aaronpk amber doesn't want a wikipedia page
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aaronpk because it's relatively out of her control
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tantek aaronpk - I didn't realize subjects had a choice in the matter, if they were notable. cc: tommorris
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aaronpk not having a wikipedia page is the default state
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tantek aaronpk - so there never was one? like there wasn't one already and she asked for deletion?
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aaronpk nope, there has never been one, because nobody has gone to the trouble of creating one
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KevinMarks_ see https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/statuses/202914649065267200
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@kevinmarks 29 Women biz execs: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Women_business_executives 460 as porn stars http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Female_pornographic_film_actors (twitter.com/_/status/202914649065267200)
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tantek aaronpk - I'm pretty shocked about that. Amber has been notable for quite some time.
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aaronpk elliottucker: did you check this already? http://indiewebcamp.com/IndieAuth#Why_is_Google.2B_not_working
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@erinjo Great blog post from @jimgroom on using @withknown in the classroom, #indieweb, and #reclaimyourdomain. http://bavatuesdays.com/teaching-without-wordpress-exploring-the-known-world/?utm_content=buffer3f622&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer (twitter.com/_/status/500360575902175233)
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elliottucker aaronpk: ahh...missed that. Had it in the Contribute to...
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elliottucker ta
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@kevinmarks “It’s everything I have learned to love about Tumblr, with the bonus of being open source…” http://bavatuesdays.com/teaching-without-wordpress-exploring-the-known-world/ #indieweb @withknown (twitter.com/_/status/500361489685831680)
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tantek that's some high praise
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barnabywalters KevinMarks_: thanks for the bug report, fixed now — try logging in!
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aaronpk has always wanted an open-source tumblr
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aaronpk known++
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Loqi known has 1 karma
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tantek Known++
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Loqi Known has 2 karma
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tantek upgrades known to uppercase Known :D
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gRegor` !give idno's karma to Known
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Loqi gives karma to Known to idno's
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gRegor` Er
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aaronpk oops yeah
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aaronpk Known++
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kylewm re: open source tumblr, this guy is signed up for IWC UK https://github.com/icco/tumble
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tantek gives Loqi a fish
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Loqi hearts the fish
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KevinMarks_ hm, still not working, I end up at indieauth.com still
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: does tumble.io load fr you?
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gRegor` I know benwerd uploaded it, but is the logo really supposed to be public domain? http://indiewebcamp.com/File:Known-logo.png
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GWG !tell petermolnar I have a question for you about your full page cache plugin
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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barnabywalters KevinMarks_: what’s the URL you see directly after clicking log in?
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: nope, oops
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KevinMarks_ https://indieauth.com/auth?me=kevinmarks.com&redirect_url=http://shrewdness.waterpigs.co.uk/
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: wonder why he does not use tumble.io to run his own site
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barnabywalters only thing I can think of is that the redirect param doesn’t look url-encoded
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aaronpk barnabywalters: redirect_uri
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kylewm will eventually learn to verify self-dogfooding before linking projects in the channel
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barnabywalters dammi
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barnabywalters dammit
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barnabywalters changing now, thanks aaronpk!
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: i think it is good to see other projects, just wondering why people don't use it themselves
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KevinMarks_ uri--
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Loqi uri has -1 karma
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KevinMarks_ url++
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Loqi url has 1 karma
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tantek uri--
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Loqi dude
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tantek url++
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aaronpk not my choice
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KartikPrabhu aah ok... uri vs url they both looked the same in lower case :P
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KevinMarks_ you could quietly accept URL as well
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aaronpk http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6749#section-4.1.1
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aaronpk ha I suppose I *could* accept both, but that may lead to incompatible implementations when used against other auth servers
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gregorlove.com created /ProcessWire (+379) "stub" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com created /processwire (+25) "r" (view diff)
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KevinMarks_ http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6749##thisspecification%20is%20likely%20to%20produce%20a%20wide%20range%20of%20non-interoperableimplementations.
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aaronpk shh
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bear I would rather you change the font used for documentation
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kylewm aaronpk: what do you think of supporting out-of-browser redirect_uri (e.g. urn:ietf:wg:oauth:2.0:oob)
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bear than have it take url
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aaronpk bear++
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Loqi bear has 18 karma
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aaronpk KevinMarks_: yes that was one of Eran's parting gifts to the spec
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kylewm where oob shows a code and lets you enter the code on the command line
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aaronpk kylewm: probably reasonable
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aaronpk but unlikely to be used except for debugging
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KevinMarks_ I know, yes.
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bear kylewm we replaced the oob requirement in python-twitter by using a call to open the browser with the proper url
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bear saved so many questions in the forum about that
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk, that should do it, in theory be able to pass that key now and have it log in
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aaronpk ben_thatmustbeme: you lost me what is going on?
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kylewm aaronpk: i looked at PushupCounter-iOS for guidance. it looked like you used a one-off scheme "pushups://", is that right? https://github.com/aaronpk/PushupCounter-iOS/blob/master/PushupCounter/PKAuthViewController.m#L32
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ben_thatmustbeme i have been working on passing a token in the headers to my site... sorry had that response queued up for a while
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aaronpk kylewm: yes the app registers that scheme so when safari sends the redirect it launches the app
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aaronpk tantek: pixel perfect SVG rendition! http://aaronparecki.com/uploads/png_vs_svg-20140815-123842.png
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kylewm bear: looking at python-twitter
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bear kylewm - https://github.com/bear/python-twitter/blob/master/get_access_token.py#L48
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@HongPong RT @BuzzWorkers: @HongPong @benwerd @CaptainKurtis @DiceyTroop @Ows_Casper @OshaKarow really going to experiment #indieweb on a new vps soon (twitter.com/_/status/500367121218420737)
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KevinMarks_ hm, if I hand-edit url to uri in the indiauth url it still fails
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barnabywalters wat
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barnabywalters well, I just updated it with that fix but apparently there’s more to do
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KevinMarks_ I did a refresh, might have been cahcing at my end
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KevinMarks_ now it works but gives me a white page after login
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KevinMarks_ literally no HTML
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barnabywalters okay well that’s a semi-good sign
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@RikMende Teaching Without WordPress: Exploring the Known World http://bavatuesdays.com/teaching-without-wordpress-exploring-the-known-world/ via @benward #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/500369746043613184)
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@RikMende Teaching Without WordPress: Exploring the Known World http://bavatuesdays.com/teaching-without-wordpress-exploring-the-known-world/ via @benwerd #indieweb is coming & it's #disruptivetech (twitter.com/_/status/500370002865041408)
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barnabywalters KevinMarks_: any chance you could send me your cookie value for shrewdness.waterpigs.co.uk?
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barnabywalters I know what the issue is but not where it’s coming from
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kylewm bear: I think I was confused about what oob does... It looks like python-twitter uses https://dev.twitter.com/docs/auth/pin-based-authorization which is what i was wondering about for indieauth
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bear oob is not pin based
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bear twitter dropped oob a while ago
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kylewm bear: so this page is incorrect?
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bear looks
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KevinMarks_ not seeing a cookie; url is http://shrewdness.waterpigs.co.uk/?token=m0oEDEv_gJXTN1zuZvEmRI8A6SndIu6mnKtQnAtxr1bxqeKv&me=http%3A%2F%2FKevinmarks.com
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kylewm specifically I'm confused about https://dev.twitter.com/docs/auth/pin-based-authorization##When+an+oob+callback
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bear hmm, it's accurate - I wonder if they fixed it
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barnabywalters KevinMarks_: thanks, figured it out! it’ll take a minute to update, I had to change a library
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barnabywalters also, generally a good idea to keep those URLs private :) aaronpk are simple-flow indieauth tokens single use?
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aaronpk i believe they expire in 30 seconds
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barnabywalters oh well that should be fine then
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KevinMarks_ remembers when we realised that about OAuth
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aaronpk barnabywalters: oh actuall they are one-time use
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aaronpk https://github.com/aaronpk/IndieAuth/blob/master/controllers/api.rb#L56
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bear kylewm I cannot find oob usage anywhere in my code - that's why I'm suggesting it may not be a good thing to implement. I know a couple years ago we had all kinds of grief with twitter about it
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benwerd just spotted the benward / benwerd snafu above. sorry once again benward_
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ben_thatmustbeme so continuing our discussion from before aaronpk, its really just a matter of generating an auth code with your auth endpoint, and we successfully got you a token for authentication to my site
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aaronpk yeah
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bear but to be honest - I know just use requests-oauthlib for my python code and it works - I don't have to dig into oauth flow ever again
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kylewm requests-oauthlib++
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Loqi requests-oauthlib has 1 karma
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kylewm I use and love it too
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bear this mediawiki usage example shows that should be possible tho: https://github.com/requests/requests-oauthlib/blob/447f537d133ef678d69f8b7587cbcdfeafa78b73/docs/examples/mediawiki.rst#L25
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barnabywalters oookay KevinMarks_ try again now (5th time lucky)
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barnabywalters this is really useful debugging, I haven’t had anyone sign in using the simple indieauth flow to taproot/authentication yet
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bear requests-oauthlib++
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Loqi requests-oauthlib has 2 karma
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KevinMarks_ sorry , on gillmor gang
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ben_thatmustbeme barnabywalters. since you asked, i am logging it. It really doesn't like it if I don't give it the http:// for my login
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barnabywalters KevinMarks_: np, getting food
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ben_thatmustbeme s/logging it/logging in/
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Loqi ben_thatmustbeme meant to say: barnabywalters. since you asked, i am logging in. It really doesn't like it if I don't give it the http:// for my login
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@heathr New post: Create Outrage. Profit from Same Outrage. Buzzfeed, Media and Creators. http://www.heathergold.com/workforfree/ #indieweb #RobinWilliams @scottros (twitter.com/_/status/500376356538941442)
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@mediajunkie RT @heathr: New post: Create Outrage. Profit from Same Outrage. Buzzfeed, Media and Creators. http://www.heathergold.com/workforfree/ #indieweb #RobinWilli… (twitter.com/_/status/500376684353179648)
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KartikPrabhu the actual heather gold article link: http://www.heathergold.com/create-outrage-profit-outrage-buzzfeed-media-creators/
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@Johannes_Ernst @davewiner is going #IndieWeb: http://scripting.com/2014/08/15/whatDoesABlogDoIn2014.html http://upon2020.com/banter/?p=463 (twitter.com/_/status/500389731000012800)
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@nchenga http://withknown.com/ Known is open source tumblr based on web standards @kevinmarks is excited about indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/500390375446810625)
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KevinMarks_ plugs indieweb and known on gillmor gang
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aaronpk tantek: my sleeps look soooo much better as SVGs now! http://aaronparecki.com/metrics/2014/08/14/061509/
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kylewm interesting comment on that winer article http://scripting.com/2014/08/15/whatDoesABlogDoIn2014.html#comment-1544301025
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kylewm "...Unfortunately, any sort of "engagement" that happens on a given service is typically going to remain sequestered there. It would be wonderful to have commenting etc. that works across all services."
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@benwerd @ericholscher You should join us all at #indiewebcamp DC in the spring! @jimgroom @erinjo @withknown (twitter.com/_/status/500394684917633024)
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KevinMarks_ aaronpk: are you making them from data or by processing their images?
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aaronpk the only data I have *is* their image
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aaronpk they don't make that resolution of data available in the api
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aaronpk so I basically scan each pixel of the image and look at the color to read the "data" and then re-generate the image
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KevinMarks_ hah
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aaronpk I *could* do more with it, because at that point I essentially know start/stop timestamps for each "level" of sleep
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kylewm have you read The Lathe of Heaven, aaronpk?
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aaronpk no
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@davewiner @Johannes_Ernst -- the only indieweb guy who does that is ward christianson. i would be happy to talk with him. (twitter.com/_/status/500395618691710976)
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kylewm these images make me think of the dream Augmentor
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kylewm (set in Portland, also)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/500354769353834496/500393926453628928 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/github (webmention)
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KevinMarks_ !tell barnabywalters now it says "You must be logged in to view this page." after I login :(
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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aaronpk oh man davewiner
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@techlifeweb WordPress posted the bug I found in Publicize #indieweb http://techlifeweb.com/social/wordpress-posted-the-bug-i-found-in-publicize-indieweb/ (twitter.com/_/status/500398922901487616)
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KevinMarks_ https://twitter.com/davewiner/status/500395507760783360
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@davewiner @Johannes_Ernst -- you can talk about indie webs and micro formats, but what ends up mattering is: 1. Software. 2. Content. 3. Users. (twitter.com/_/status/500395507760783360)
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tantek actually none of that matters besides users, the rest is a side effect of designing for users.
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KevinMarks_ which I think Dave gets - his company was called userland after all
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bret interesting article on 'native' http://www.osnews.com/story/27867/Arment_on_app_rot_
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tantek software is disposable and nearly irrelevant except as a means to an ends
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tantek the fact that winer puts that first in that list shows a misunderstanding of priorities
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bret err more, on the app store model than native apps, but they go hand in hand
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bret the more I read winer, the less I respect his views. hes contradics himself all the time
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KevinMarks_ theres an interesting bit of meaning shift going on around "native"
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KevinMarks_ I wonder if "native advertising" will taint "native apps"
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bret cant install adblock on an iphone
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KevinMarks_ I respect Winer for building things and talking about them in public - he has been doing that for 20 years and is a role model in that respect
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bret (rooting does not count)
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KevinMarks_ by keeping his history up, you can see him changing his mind over time, which is a good thing
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bret KevinMarks_: I respect that too. It's his inability to process cometing ideas that is frustrating
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bret competing*
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KevinMarks_ see http://www.scripting.com/2006/12/20.html#godBlessTheReinventers
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bret KevinMarks_: at least in the short term
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KevinMarks_ then http://scripting.com/stories/2012/09/10/rssInJsonForReal.html
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Loqi [mention] http://techlifeweb.com/social/what-does-a-blog-do-in-2014/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/Getting_Started (webmention)
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aaronpk wow he really did build a JSON version of his RSS feed http://scripting.com/rss.json
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bret has he ever made a coherent argument against microformats, other than its not rss?
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KartikPrabhu I should put out a YAML version of my feed
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aaronpk KartikPrabhu: and protocol buffers
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aaronpk or whatever the successor of that is
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KartikPrabhu what is protocol buffers?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "protocol buffers" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=protocol+buffers
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aaronpk it's a google thing
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KevinMarks_ the chap building the successor came to homebrew 2 weeks ago - sandstorm was it?
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aaronpk binary serialization format
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aaronpk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocol_Buffers
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: just saw. blergh
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kylewm he built Protocol buffers too
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kylewm Kenton
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KevinMarks_ https://sandstorm.io
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tantek is this another twitter debate?
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aaronpk I don't think so
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KevinMarks_ if they can get the capabilities stuff right, it could be very interesting
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tantek I mean all the winer discussion - what's actually new or is this another rss flareup?
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kylewm tantek: j12t accused him of being #indieweb
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tantek oh boy
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aaronpk kylewm: lol
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kylewm good natured enough, no debacle
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KevinMarks_ what is sandstorm?
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Loqi Sandstorm is open source software project that aims to make self-hosted personal clouds easy as well as offering a hosted paid version for less technically inclined users http://indiewebcamp.com/sandstorm
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@_AndreasGrimm the open, #indieweb will take over .. again. @t did an awesome talk at #webdirections. https://www.youtube.com/ no more silos! (twitter.com/_/status/500414956660355072)
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kylewm that's interesting "The Sandstorm platform sits between the user and the app, so when an HTTP request arrives at the app, it is already annotated with information about the user’s identity and permissions as authenticated by the platform."
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kylewm ref https://blog.sandstorm.io/news/2014-05-12-easy-port.html
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KevinMarks_ I didn't completely get this 2 weeks ago (partly because we were talking about macrelics at the same time)
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KevinMarks_ very interesting
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KevinMarks_ wonders if I can fix my noterlive deployment problems with sandstorm
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KevinMarks_ lines up the yaks
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KartikPrabhu what us yak shaving?
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KartikPrabhu what is yak shaving?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "yak shaving" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=yak+shaving
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rascul any recent indieweb related talks to watch? last i saw was KevinMarks_ at ignite
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KevinMarks_ how was that one?
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rascul it was good i liked it
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aaronpk rascul: http://indiewebcamp.com/videos_about_the_indieweb
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rascul ooo i forgot about that one, thanks aaronpk
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rascul looks like two there i haven't seen yet
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rascul KevinMarks_ i found it on youtube a couple days after it happened
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rascul i especially liked your volcano fax number :)
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KevinMarks_ I should add it to that page
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Loqi yea
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kylewm plz do
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rascul i didn't find a video of the individual talk, it was near the end of a long video of what appeared to be all the talks for an hour or two i think
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KevinMarks_ not mine, it's a shadowy group of unnamed people at schema.org's volcano fax number
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KevinMarks_ and Dan, bless him
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KevinMarks_ wondering if I should keep pestagram running
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KevinMarks_ http://pestagram.com/tag/homebrewwebsiteclub
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www.bringtherainbow.com about-me edited /2014/UK/Guest_List (+249) "/* Attendees */" (view diff)
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tantek ^^^ we allow non TLD paths?
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tantek rascul, mine from Web Directions just got posted
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tantek https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNr0JNwsLy8
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tantek should add that to the /videos_about page
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tantek is this a Node error message? "Unable to connect to any application instances."