#indiewebcamp 2014-08-19

2014-08-19 UTC
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kylewm just discovered that I allow iframes in webmention comments...
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kylewm yikes
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mko I was doing OEmbeds for in-reply-to, webmentions, and in-post links, but I pretty quickly realized it was a pretty big management overhead.
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@webdirections The Once and Future IndieWeb really is inspirational viewing if you care about the ownership of your content http://www.webdirections.org/resources/tantek-celik-future-indieweb/ (twitter.com/_/status/501520999771160576)
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aaronpk bret: thanks for the idea! :) https://github.com/aaronpk/indiewebcamp-irc-logs/issues/3
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kylewm aaronpk, you crazy
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aaronpk :)
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aaronpk it's pretty magical
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KevinMarks Wait is this working?
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aaronpk not sure how/if to handle auto-scroll
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tantek.com edited /2014/SF/expenses (+15) "Mozilla sponsored pre-dinner" (view diff)
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KevinMarks Not seeing it on android chrome
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aaronpk hmm, works in safari iOS and chrome desktop for me
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kylewm wow, it is instant
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aaronpk KevinMarks: http://caniuse.com/websockets says it should be working on android chrome.. :/
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KevinMarks I wonder if it breaks when I switch apps to reply in here
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KevinMarks Of course everyone had stopped talking now
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KevinMarks s/had/has/
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Loqi KevinMarks meant to say: Of course everyone has stopped talking now
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kylewm I have a banal question that can double as testing for websockets :P
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kylewm for likes and reposts, I post e-content that's just like "liked this" or "shared this" (sorry tantek, I know you don't like that word)
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kylewm but that looks dumb in the alpha feed readers people are playing with
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kylewm should there be more context in the content?
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kylewm e.g. http://shrewdness.waterpigs.co.uk/test/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fkylewm.com
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KevinMarks The post page looks good
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bret websockets r fun!
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bret that is so cool
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bret does it work on phones?
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bret pfff yeah!
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kylewm barnabywalters++ for awesome indieweb facebook cover picture!! https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xaf1/t1.0-9/168856_394026660653943_1529076782_n.jpg
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Loqi barnabywalters has 57 karma
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bret haha cool
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bret love the accordian playing ???
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kylewm water pig, right?
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bret oh ya duh
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cuibonobo mko: hey there! i tried logging in to your site but I keep getting "unable to connect" from your server
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cuibonobo seems like i'm breaking everything today
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kylewm cuibonobo: don't feel bad, i broke it too
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KevinMarks_ kylewm: why don't you put the e-content around the quoted post too in those liked/shared ones
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cuibonobo kylewm: seems like we have https in common :)
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kylewm KevinMarks_: good question! my concern is that people who assume/display bridgy style replies will be messed up
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KevinMarks_ well, they're doing the clever parsing, they can decide how to deal
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kylewm mko: your h-entry url property is parsing a little strangely http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmowens.com%2Fnotes%2F2014%2F07%2F01%2F2%2F
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kylewm looks like it's picking up your h-card instead of the post permalink
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tantek.com edited /events/2014-08-27-homebrew-website-club (-9) "/* Where */ SF location confirmed!" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /events/2014-08-27-homebrew-website-club (-4) "/* Where */ -TBD" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /events/2014-08-27-homebrew-website-club (+18) "/* RSVP */ confirmed. hosting." (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk, dietrich can you confirm a venue for Homebrew Website Club 2014-08-27 in PDX?
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-08-27-homebrew-website-club#Where
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tantek how fast is this websocket thing I hear about?
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tantek ok that was scary fast.
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mattl I'm now posting my own GNU social notices to my own GNU social server -- http://mattl.io
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tantek very cool mattl! does that mean you should update /irc-people to link to mattl.io instead of .us? (and add an image while you're at it!)
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tantek e.g. see http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-08-18/line/1408414164595
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mattl mattl.us is my website, mattl.io is my GNU social instance. mattl.cc will be my artwork.
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tantek ah ok. then just go ahead and add your image to /irc-people
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mattl.us edited /IRC_People (+35) "/* Nicknames */" (view diff)
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mattl.us uploaded /File:mattl.png "CC0."
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dietrich tantek: i can't attend 8/27 :(
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tantek mattl - don't worry - it takes the cache about 5 minutes to catch up with image edits
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mattl.us edited /User:Mattl.us (+22) "/* Matt Lee */" (view diff)
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Loqi dietrich: tantek left you a message 3 weeks, 3 days ago: if you're interested in giving a talk about IndieWeb sometime 2014-10-20..24, in particular how you've built or setup your own indieweb site, check this out and make a proposal! http://html5devconf.com/cfs-oct2014.html - feel free to mention that Tantek recommended you make a proposal (I was on their speaker board for a while) - and that offer is open to
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tantek dietrich :( but hopefully in the future!
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dietrich yeah def. august is super full. fall will normalize things hopefully :)
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tantek dietrich how about september?
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dietrich i'll be around most of sept!
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tantek like 09-24 • 09-10 ? any chance MozPDX could host?
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dietrich tantek: my calendar looks fine for both
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tantek great!
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dietrich tantek: let me confirm mozpdx is not already booked
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dietrich tantek: ok, we're good. i'll file the event requests to lock it in.
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tantek.com created /events/2014-09-10-homebrew-website-club (+4321) "stub" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /events/2014-09-24-homebrew-website-club (+4321) "stub" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /events/2014-10-08-homebrew-website-club (+4321) "stub" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /events/2014-10-22-homebrew-website-club (+4321) "stub" (view diff)
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tantek dietrich, awesome! when you do can you edit these and add MozPDX to the Portland location? http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-09-10-homebrew-website-club#Where and http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-09-24-homebrew-website-club#Where ?
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tantek !tell aaronpk can ESRIPDX host 08-27? http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-08-27-homebrew-website-club#Where
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek !tell dotnic Is Minneapolis meeting up on 08-27? Same place? Can you add it to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-08-27-homebrew-website-club#Where ? Thanks!
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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dietrich tantek: yep
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metafluff.com edited /events/2014-09-24-homebrew-website-club (-49) "/* Where */" (view diff)
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metafluff.com edited /events/2014-09-10-homebrew-website-club (-49) "/* Where */" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /webactions (+960) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ document Michael Owens implementation since his action tags are live, even though fallbacks are in-progress" (view diff)
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tantek thanks dietrich!
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tantek dietrich++
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Loqi dietrich has 6 karma
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tantek dietrich, aside, if you update your entry in /irc-people to have an image, it will show up in the new fancy IRC logs: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-08-18/line/1408415109306
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aaronpk hello again
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Loqi aaronpk: tantek left you a message 20 minutes ago: can ESRIPDX host 08-27? http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-08-27-homebrew-website-club#Where
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aaronparecki.com edited /events/2014-08-27-homebrew-website-club (-46) "8/27 HWC at Esri PDX" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /events/2014-08-27-homebrew-website-club (+24) "/* RSVP */ add myself" (view diff)
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kylewm mattl: do you think it's possible for your gnu social instance to interoperate with indieweb sites?
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mattl kylewm: probably.
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@alexrodrigues43 Tantek Çelik - The once and future IndieWeb https://www.youtube.com/ (twitter.com/_/status/501579491609935873)
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@kaeff https://sandstorm.io : Open source app store for your own server. Great idea for challenging the maintenance problem #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/501630578735583232)
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KevinMarks2 Wondering about dynamic log updates
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KevinMarks2 They seem to work on my phone but not my tablet, and android OS version, both running chrome
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KevinMarks2 Very neat work
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KevinMarks2 Also working on Firefox android on my phone
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sebastiangreger.net edited /User:Sebastiangreger.net (+108) "links update" (view diff)
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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barnabywalters anyone here tried out the geeksphone revolution with Firefox OS on? considering of getting a FFOS phone again
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barnabywalters s/considering of/considering
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Loqi barnabywalters meant to say: anyone here tried out the geeksphone revolution with Firefox OS on? considering getting a FFOS phone again
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@LongHandPixels vol 6 of the @longhandpixels newsletter will ship soon w/ links on preserving the web, #indieweb & more. join here: https://longhandpixels.net/newsletter/ (twitter.com/_/status/501724709957144576)
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@webmonkey RT @LongHandPixels: vol 6 of the @longhandpixels newsletter will ship soon w/ links on preserving the web, #indieweb & more. join here: htt… (twitter.com/_/status/501724763493244929)
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barnabywalters !tell aaronpk looks like there’s some problem with your sleep metrics photos — they aren’t loading properly and look very weird in shrewdness: http://shrewdness.waterpigs.co.uk/test/?url=http%3A%2F%2Faaronparecki.com%2Fmetrics
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@dissolve333 live tweeting here at #devopsdays wish I had taken time to set up a fast #indiewebcamp method to post on my site first. maybe i'll backfeed (twitter.com/_/status/501741798256291841)
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@glennjones Why I have built a new platform for publishing content - "The shoebox, a manifesto for transmat.io" http://glennjones.net/articles/2014-08-19-manifesto-for-transmit #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/501748144863211520)
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@glennjones @paulsilver sorry URL was incorrectly try http://glennjones.net/articles/2014-08-19-manifesto-for-transmat #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/501752832027271168)
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aaronpk good morning
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Loqi aaronpk: barnabywalters left you a message 1 hour, 59 minutes ago: looks like there’s some problem with your sleep metrics photos — they aren’t loading properly and look very weird in shrewdness: http://shrewdness.waterpigs.co.uk/test/?url=http%3A%2F%2Faaronparecki.com%2Fmetrics
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barnabywalters morning aaronpk!
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aaronpk I messed something up with the auto-imported sleep records when I switched them all to svg
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aaronpk the svg ones are looking nice in shrewdness though!
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barnabywalters aaronpk: because they’re u-photo but don’t show up in the content they get the special edge-to-edge treatment :)
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aaronpk ah nice!
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aaronpk with fancy gradient background!
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barnabywalters well, that was implemented as a moderately-meaningful placeholder for the ones which weren’t loading properly
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barnabywalters not sure if I like it as a backdrop for the working ones with transparency though
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aaronpk hm let's see if the logs auto-scroll now
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aaronpk YES
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barnabywalters that is indeed pretty cool :)
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@LewisCowper @graphiclunarkid It looks like you’re stumbling toward the #indieweb and what they call POSSE - http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (twitter.com/_/status/501767329114771456)
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Loqi [mention] http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4XgGVa/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/WordPress (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4XgGVa/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/IRC (webmention)
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lewiscowper Thanks for picking that tweet up, I've yet to figure out how I'm going to do POSSE/webmention stuff on my site yet, but I'm getting there.
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kylewm barnabywalters: can i request a shrewdness invite? 0:)
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barnabywalters kylewm: done, you should be able to log in now
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kylewm woo, it worked!! thanks :)
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kylewm is aaronpk the Myspace Tom of shrewdness?
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lewiscowper what is shrewdness?
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Loqi Shrewdness is a micropub-enabled reader web app, currently being developed by Barnaby Walters http://indiewebcamp.com/Shrewdness
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lewiscowper awesome, I <3 that bot
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barnabywalters kylewm: pretty much :)
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kylewm Loqi++
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Loqi Loqi has 283 karma
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kylewm barnabywalters++
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barnabywalters I am going to work on a welcome robot at some point, but there are higher priority things to fix
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Loqi barnabywalters has 58 karma
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barnabywalters goals for this evening’s shrewdness hacking: micropub reply working, column deletion working, search columns working
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barnabywalters kylewm: please direct issues to http://gitub.com/barnabywalters/shrewdness
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barnabywalters as well as haranguing me in here
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bret aaronpk++ for the autoscroll!
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Loqi aaronpk has 546 karma
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bret so cool
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barnabywalters Loqi, would you consider coming to work for shrewdness as a welcoming robot?
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aaronpk barnabywalters: what is a "welcoming robot?"
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barnabywalters aaronpk: see http://indiewebcamp.com/Shrewdness##Designing%20the%20bootstrapping%20process
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aaronpk oh cool!
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barnabywalters that screenshot uses Ralph the terraformed concrete block because (embarrasingly) it was the only robot photo I had
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jonnybarnes is the plan to make shrwedness portable barnabywalters ?
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jonnybarnes i.e. I could easily install it on my own vps at some point
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barnabywalters jonnybarnes: it’s all open source, you can install it right now
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jonnybarnes barnabywalters: from github.com/barnabywalters/shrewdness ?
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barnabywalters jonnybarnes: yep, but it might be a bit of a pain
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jonnybarnes barnabywalters: so I ask again, is it in the pipeline to make installing less of a pain? :P
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barnabywalters you need a MySQL database, an elasticsearch index and a superfeedr account
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barnabywalters jonnybarnes: it depends how many people bug me :) at the moment I’m more focused on getting my instance working really well before supporting people installing it themselves
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barnabywalters i.e. I’m going to be making breaking changes and would rather spend time building nice UX than making sure database schemas are automatically migrated from every possible permutation
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aaronpk sounds like a reasonable priority for the time being :)
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jonnybarnes agreed
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barnabywalters usually I would keep projects private for this period, but in practise that results in them never being released, so I decided to go “source available but unsupported as of yet” for shrewdness
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tantek catches up on logs.
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barnabywalters switching locations, bbiab
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aaronpk the path to a web-based IRC client just got a lot shorter
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jonnybarnes added an h-feed to my site and shrwedness comes up with a weird name value: http://shrewdness.waterpigs.co.uk/test/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fjonnybarnes.uk%2Fnotes
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aaronpk I could see pretty easily creating a one-line thing at the bottom of the logs which will join IRC and let you send messages to the channel
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jonnybarnes it also comes up with a weird url for me (author)
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aaronpk jonnybarnes: that probably means you don't have an explicit p-name property on the h-feed
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jonnybarnes aaronpk nope
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jonnybarnes div.hfeed > div.h-entry, div.h-entry ...
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aaronpk just add a p-name as a property on the h-feed and it'll work
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tantek jonnybarnes: I have an empty span inside my tantek.com h-feed for just this reason: <span class="p-name"></span>
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tantek welcome back j12t! add your icon to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people
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tantek and then checkout the logs 5 min later ;)
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jonnybarnes tantek: having done that the output is now name: ""
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jonnybarnes which I suppose is better than gibberish
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aaronpk so wait what is the point of an implied p-name parsing rule if people are just going to override it to blank it out later?
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tantek jonnybarnes: right - it forces any feed consumer to do something smarter
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tantek aaronpk - I didn't care to give my feed a separate invisible name
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aaronpk right, so my question is what is the purpose of the implied p-name rule? why not just not set the p-name property when parsing?
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tantek aaronpk - the point of the implied p-name parsing rule is that it works in the huge supermajority of cases to save people time and space.
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tantek those are two different questions
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tantek it's for publishers to not have to hassle with extra spans and classes in the majority of cases
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aaronpk i guess it works really well for short stuff like names in h-cards
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aaronpk just seems to cause lots of confusion on longer things like h-entry or h-feed
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tantek and names of events, products, venues, etc.
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tantek h-entry works fine too, since the simplest h-entry is a note, wherein the whole name is the whole content
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tantek h-feed has been the only odd example yet, everything else works fine
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aaronpk it doesn't work well for longer notes either though, especially when they have whitespace
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aaronpk s/whitespace/newlines
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Loqi aaronpk meant to say: it doesn't work well for longer notes either though, especially when they have newlines
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tantek better to have things work not as well for minority cases, than complexify majority cases
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tantek most dev-design tech/API/formats make the error of trying to avoid "work not as well" for all edge cases, and then complexify all the simple cases as a result
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tantek so the short answer to " what is the purpose of the implied p-name rule?" is 80/20
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tantek but this question I don't understand: "why not just not set the p-name property when parsing?" - because that's exactly what the implied p-name parsing rule does!
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KevinMarks_ shrewdness still broken for me becasue https://github.com/barnabywalters/shrewdness/issues/18 :(
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aaronpk "not set"
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aaronpk poorly phrased question
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tantek oh I ignored the second "not" as an erroneous duplicate ;)
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aaronpk yeah lol
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KevinMarks_ hm, interesting anomaly with the live updating - if I leave the tab open and come back later I get a log with some lines missing
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tantek so same answer - because in the 80% of cases (more like 99% when you look at how many single-link h-cards we create linking to people name+images, or product name+image or org name+image etc.) it makes it MUCH EASIER for publishers.
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KevinMarks_ needs to close tabs more often
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aaronpk hm yeah... I suppose I could load backscroll when the websocket reconnects
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aaronpk is there a websockets logo besides this? https://www.websocket.org/img/logo-top2.png
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bret lol
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bret socket.io kept all the pretty for itself http://socket.io
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aaronpk what? http://happyinteraction.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Websockets-460x300.png
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bret phhh perdy
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bret Is there a good way to create a slider in html without jquery?
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bret range slider
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ShaneHudson <input type="range"> but not very cross compatible yet and doesn't support multiple anchors
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kylewm catching up on the logs, i agree that implied 'name' parsing doesn't work that well for h-entry, even for short notes
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kylewm in practice, it ends up including the author's name and published date, and lots of random markup
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kylewm and it's hard to tell programmatically if it's a "title" or implied junk
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tantek hmm - in both those cases there are lots of nested elements
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aaronpk re: archives, I realized we have a problem with the currently described scheme here http://indiewebcamp.com/IndieArchive
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aaronpk given two URLs like http://example.com/notes and http://example.com/notes/100 it is not possible to store both on disk
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aaronpk because "notes" would have to be a folder as well as a file
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tantek aaronpk I thought we solved that with the index.html solution
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aaronpk sort of
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aaronpk but /notes/ and /notes are technically different paths
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aaronpk and in fact a server could serve different content at both URLs
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tantek and in fact does, e.g. http://indiewebcamp.com/IRC/ vs. http://indiewebcamp.com/IRC
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aaronpk ha yep
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aaronpk btw I already got bit by this
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ShaneHudson Been trying to decide on my new content types. /posts/ /notes/ and /links/ should be fine I think?
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kylewm ShaneHudson: aren't notes and links subtypes of posts?
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jonnybarnes aaronpk: re archiving, I currently create index.html files
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aaronpk jonnybarnes: that doesn't solve the problem
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tantek ShaneHudson: see /posts
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ShaneHudson I suppose so but I wanted to give them their own archive pages and it also means they can have their own fields :)
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ShaneHudson I think posts works better for my content over articles, as I tend to write longer than a note but not high enough quality to be an article
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KartikPrabhu ShaneHudson: I don't think "high quality" what ever that means defines "articles"
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kylewm ShaneHudson: adactio calls those http://adactio.com/journal/
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ShaneHudson True
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kylewm just a datapoint
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KartikPrabhu I think of them as: long-form, less frequent vs short-form, more frequent
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KartikPrabhu ShaneHudson: well at the end of the day, you can call them whatever you like :P
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ShaneHudson Hmm yeah, also just realised my current site calls them articles, which means links would work etc.
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tantek ShaneHudson: how do you distinguish them?
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ShaneHudson I would agree with KartikPrabhu
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ShaneHudson Although my previous site included notes with articles due to the way the site is set up
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tantek the point is that anything that's just plain text-like is a note
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tantek e.g. auto-embedding of links/images doesn't discount note-ness
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ShaneHudson true
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tantek as soon as you start adding some structure, e.g. a name for the post, or headings, or multiple paragraphs, you're in article territory
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ShaneHudson I want links to be separate purely so I can find them, bookmark style. Images will go in with notes (unless I want a long-form write up about the images)
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Loqi gives ShaneHudson a long
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KartikPrabhu lol Loqi
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Loqi grins profusely
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ShaneHudson Silly Loqi
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snarfed this question seems to come up every couple weeks or so
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snarfed i wonder if that means anything
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: I have taken it to mean that having strict separation between articles/notes is based on "structure" is problematic
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KartikPrabhu that is why I use post length and post frequency type distinction
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tantek ShaneHudson, snarfed - feel free to add to http://indiewebcamp.com/Semantics_Of_Article-Note_Distinction
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lolgician I'm trying to register episte.media at RandoCorp. My other domain is managed through Hover. Does this mean I'm going to buy it at RandoCorp then transfer it?
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tantek what is RandoCorp?
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lolgician "nameserver" and "DNS forwarding" are not familiar terms.
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "RandoCorp" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=RandoCorp
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tantek what is Hover?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Hover" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Hover
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lolgician www.instra.com
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lolgician "RandoCorp" only in, "Here is this thing I've never heard of"
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snarfed.org edited /Semantics_Of_Article-Note_Distinction (+303) "/* Personal, subjective distinctions */ mine" (view diff)
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Loqi [mention] http://bot.moldseo.info/ping/blogs.php?pg=66938 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention (pingback)
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kylewm Loqi: no it didn't
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snarfed ooh interesting. it send the webmention though?
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snarfed s/send/sent/
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Loqi snarfed meant to say: ooh interesting. it sent the webmention though?
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@mathpunk @etymancer That state is taking forever to change. Hop onto irc.indieweb if you have time to tell me what nameservers are again (twitter.com/_/status/501823256773398528)
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lolgician Oh, Loqi. You're so nosy.
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kylewm lolgician: does "RandoCorp" have a website? i couldnt find anything on a simple search
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lolgician I was being silly. It's www.instra.com.
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lolgician I'm not entirely clear on how the domain names market works, so here's a page I've never heard of asking for a credit card~
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kylewm i'm not familiar with that registrar; if you trust them, then you should be ok to purchase there and use their tools to point to the right IP address
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kylewm if you'd rather use Hover, I'd just register the domain through Hover
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kylewm lolgician: some info here http://indiewebcamp.com/domain_name_registrar
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lolgician kylewm: This is helpful, thank you
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KevinMarks_ wow, OGP doesn't allow relative URLs facebook--
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tantek.com edited /The-Open-Graph-protocol (+174) "Criticism subheads" (view diff)
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tantek KevinMarks: citation? or just add to https://indiewebcamp.com/The-Open-Graph-protocol#Disallows_relative_URLs
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kevinmarks.com edited /The-Open-Graph-protocol (+213) "/* Disallows relative URLs */" (view diff)
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kevinmarks.com edited /The-Open-Graph-protocol (+190) "/* Criticism */" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /The-Open-Graph-protocol (+3) "Pseudo-RDFa is a criticism" (view diff)
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KevinMarks_ their validator actively rejects "description"
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tantek that's funny too
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shanehudson.net edited /Semantics_Of_Article-Note_Distinction (+494) "Adding my opinion" (view diff)
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kevinmarks.com edited /The-Open-Graph-protocol (+583) "/* Pseudo-RDFa */" (view diff)
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KevinMarks_ as I'm adding their cruft to placate their preview generation, I'm learning more about how broken they are
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tantek what use-cases are you adding cruft for?
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tantek sorry, I mean, for previews of *what* in particular?
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mathpunk.net edited /dns (+288) "/* FAQ */" (view diff)
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mathpunk.net edited /dns (+11) "/* FAQ */" (view diff)
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KevinMarks_ to make it use the logo I want rather than randomly grabbing images from the site, and to set what is displayed when you share it
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tantek KevinMarks: without OGP, FB grabs the first image that's at least a certain width (300px?)
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tantek it's not random, it's reasonably predictable, enough so to use it instead of metacruft
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KevinMarks_ and is a png or jpg yes. So if I'm using SVG it gets a bit arbitrary
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tantek well they don't support SVG regardless of implied or explicit
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KevinMarks_ right
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KevinMarks_ but SVG is very good at logos
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tantek but you can't make them use it so...
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KevinMarks_ so I have to add an og:image pointing at the jpg or png instead
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tantek because you don't want to visibly display the jpg or png?
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KevinMarks_ because I don't want it downloaded by most browsers when I can use an SVG
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tantek why not <object data="image.svg" type="image/svg"><img src="image.jpg" alt="yo alt text"/></object> ?
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tantek FB ought to find that, and it's proper visible fallback HTML that browsers will only use if they don't support image/svg (or can't load image.svg)
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tantek no metaogpcruft needed
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KevinMarks_ I suppose I could. I was using <img> with SVG for simplicity
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tantek use a high-compression JPEG (to minimize your bandwidth, and be nice to mobile browsers that don't support SVG) and of sufficient px resolution for FB to use.
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KevinMarks_ will that make it fallback in IE <9 too?
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tantek yes it will
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barnabywalters micropub-enabled shrewdness-users (OTTOMH kylewm, aaronpk, bret[?]): the inline reply UI in shrewdness feeds now work, go wild! :)
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aaronpk whoa, neat use of <object> tag
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aaronpk barnabywalters++
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Loqi barnabywalters has 59 karma
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barnabywalters http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4XgLxF/ was the first reply posted with it
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barnabywalters kylewm: I’m particularly interested in getting inline repost and like UIs working for you, as you’re furthest along implementing those post types
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KevinMarks_ looks neat.
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barnabywalters my inital thoughts are just a content-less POST request to the micropub endpoint with h=entry and like-of=url/repost-of=url
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aaronpk oh man I can't wait until I can start posting likes / reposts
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barnabywalters KevinMarks_: thanks! Also interested to know what sort of fallback you want as a not-yet-micropub-enabled use
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KevinMarks_ my version is still broken :(
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tantek barnabywalters: I thought idno/Known implemented likes/reposts
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kylewm barnabywalters: awesome! I accept 'like-of' but not 'repost-of' yet
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barnabywalters KevinMarks_: oh really, completely broken? looking into that next
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KevinMarks_ I think deleting a duplicate subscription broke something
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barnabywalters tantek: favourites certainly, not sure about reposts, but I don’t see any Known users use either very much
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KevinMarks_ db query inconsistency
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barnabywalters wheras kylewm posts plenty of likes and reposts
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tantek that he does! I wonder if that means his UI is better.
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KevinMarks_ known has a bookmarklet for it
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barnabywalters KevinMarks_: ah yeah I saw the issue — really strange, haven’t figured it out yet
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KevinMarks_ needs to get a known site up to play with too
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benwerd we don't do reposts
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barnabywalters fixing KevinMarks’s issue then onto search columns and ability to remove columns
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benwerd although with the reader this may change - were just whiteboarding this today
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benwerd but we've got a few things to get through first
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barnabywalters benwerd: just let me know if you want early access to shrewdness, I can make you an account
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benwerd I would love that! :)
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barnabywalters benwerd: you indieauth as werd.io right?
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benwerd yep
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KevinMarks_ benwerd it's neat - definitely worth looking at as you map a reader out
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barnabywalters benwerd: okay, try logging into http://shrewdness.waterpigs.co.uk whenever you feel like it
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barnabywalters still many many bugs but I’m blistering through them now other people are actually using it :)
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benwerd it helps, doesn't it? :D
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barnabywalters indeedy
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benwerd looks at his buglist and weeps
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KevinMarks_ users++
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Loqi users has 1 karma
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kylewm barnabywalters: do I need to log out and back in to micropub?
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barnabywalters kylewm: you shouldn’t need to — I’ll add some sort of status indicator so you can see your current access token availability and endpoint
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KartikPrabhu barnabywalters: can I haz shrewdness too! :D
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barnabywalters KartikPrabhu: sure, of course
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barnabywalters KevinMarks_: okay there was something weird wrong with the file I’m storing your column definitions in, try now
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tantek barnabywalters: reminder, add an image for yourself in /irc-people !
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barnabywalters KartikPrabhu: okay, you should be able to log in as kartikprabhu.com now
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KartikPrabhu w00t!
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Loqi :D
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kylewm barnabywalters: it wokred!! think I just had stale javascript
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barnabywalters tantek: argh more distractions
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barnabywalters kylewm: yay! yep, stale js is quite likely, I haven’t built any cachebusting yet
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Loqi yay!
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KevinMarks_ yay, fixed
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barnabywalters KevinMarks: good to hear! if it happens again I’ll actually figure out what caused it :D
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KevinMarks_ so is http://shrewdness.waterpigs.co.uk/test/?url=epeus.blogspot.com parsing my microformats or the atom feed?
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tantek barnabywalters: your twitter has an icon :P
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benwerd barnabywalters: nifty
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barnabywalters currently always microformats2, no internal ATOM/RSS support yet
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barnabywalters tantek: so does my homepage, make aaronpk pull photos from h-cards ;)
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KevinMarks_ is it gauche to add icons for people to /irc-people
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KevinMarks_ ah nice, so it is getting something from my retro hAtom
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barnabywalters KevinMarks_: yep I have classic microformat conversion on by default
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KartikPrabhu barnabywalters: is clicking Reply supposed to do something?
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barnabywalters nice work making usable classic hAtom :) most hAtom markup I’ve come across in the wild (usually wordpress) is woefully inadequate
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barnabywalters KartikPrabhu: it should show a reply UI regardless, replies will only work if you have micropub enabled
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KevinMarks_ this was the default at Blogger for a while
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barnabywalters going to make a better fallback later
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KevinMarks_ I suspect it's rotted by now
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KartikPrabhu barnabywalters: hmmm nothing happens when I click Reply. no UI shows up :(
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barnabywalters KartikPrabhu: browser?
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KevinMarks_ I was thinking of making a generic feed to h-feed adaptor, as I have unmung.com lying around
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KevinMarks_ and it would basically just mean hooking universal feed parser up to an html template
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KartikPrabhu barnabywalters: FF latest
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jonnybarnes github have startted expanding empty folders used for namespacing: https://github.com/blog/1877-folder-jumping
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barnabywalters KartikPrabhu: latest stable or nightly? version #?
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KartikPrabhu barnabywalters: FF 31.0
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barnabywalters KartikPrabhu: thanks, will look into it — can you raise as an issue on http://github.com/barnabywalters/shrewdness please?
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KevinMarks_ which I've done both halves of several times before
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KartikPrabhu barnabywalters: sure on it
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barnabywalters thanks, much appreciated!
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KartikPrabhu barnabywalters: also having trouble adding a second feed... will DM you
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benwerd btw, transmat.io is interesting too: a POSSE and archiving tool (although centralized as far as I can tell, albeit with a local backup). very modern-windows-like in design.
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benwerd can imagine it supporting micropub to post to indieweb sites.
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KevinMarks_ http://known.kevinmarks.com/ is up, yay
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Loqi yay!
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tantek well that was fast KevinMarks!
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KevinMarks_ benwerd is hosting it, I just redirected
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KartikPrabhu "there are known unknowns and unknown knowns"
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jonnybarnes barnabywalters: i dont understand this PHP :( https://github.com/barnabywalters/shrewdness/blob/master/src/app.php#L87
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jonnybarnes won't $value be undefined?
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks_: is this in response to your son's taunt?
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: I've been wanting to make that unknown Knowns joke for ages
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barnabywalters jonnybarnes: that’s an anonymous function definition
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KevinMarks_ hm, now I need to make an account somewhere else so I can indieauth too
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barnabywalters so within the function scope, $value is the argument passed to $purifier when it’s called
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barnabywalters e.g. $purifier(‘hello’) results in the function having a local variable $value == ‘hello'
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jonnybarnes ahhh, if no purifier is passed into the parent function, you've defined a kind of mock function that returns the input
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KevinMarks_ yay, now indieauthed as known.kevinmarks.com too
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KevinMarks_ I can now have wiki edit wars with myself
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barnabywalters jonnybarnes: exactly! although really the check should be !is_callable() rather than === null
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barnabywalters okay shrewdness users can now delete columns so go wild creating new ones
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known.kevinmarks.com edited /User:Kevinmarks.com (+77) (view diff)
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KevinMarks_ can I try logging into shrewdness as known.kevinmarks.com too so I can try known likes etc
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barnabywalters KevinMarks_: doesn’t look like you have a micropub endpoint — IIRC micropub isn’t core Known, you/benwerd needs to install a plugin
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barnabywalters so who’s going to be the person to make a micropub plugin for wordpress?
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benwerd barnabywalters: there's going to be a mega-update to the hosted code this afternoon (including much easier POSSE) - will add the micropub feature
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barnabywalters benwerd: cool, thanks!
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KevinMarks_ is there an Alan Partridge plugin yet?
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KevinMarks_ It's like Yo, except it posts "Aha!"
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benwerd And then all the pubsub subscribers respond with, "Aha!"
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jonnybarnes barnabywalters: is elastisearch a web thing, or a program you install?
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benwerd now considering calling the reader BigPlate
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KevinMarks_ KartikPrabhu: there we go
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KevinMarks_ http://www.andrewmarks.media/2014/nice-website-noob
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barnabywalters jonnybarnes: elasticsearch is a search engine/“nosql” database written in java
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KevinMarks_ elasticsearch is Lucene wrapped up in ruby
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barnabywalters and it is my favourite thing since ever
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jonnybarnes so if i wasnted to host shrewdness, id have to install elastisearch?
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks_: nice! :P
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jonnybarnes s/wasnted/wanted
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Loqi jonnybarnes meant to say: so if i wanted to host shrewdness, id have to install elastisearch?
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barnabywalters jonnybarnes: yep. fortunately, despite being java it’s super easy to install and run
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barnabywalters literally one command
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jonnybarnes this implies not though: https://github.com/elasticsearch/elasticsearch-php/blob/master/docs/installation.asciidoc
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KevinMarks_ brew install elasticsearch
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barnabywalters jonnybarnes: that’s the elasticsearch PHP client, which is separate to the actual server. The client gets installed automatically when you install shrewdness
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aaronpk oh like this? http://www.elasticsearch.org/guide/en/elasticsearch/reference/current/setup-repositories.html
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aaronpk hm this is tempting
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jonnybarnes java :(
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KevinMarks_ is self-webmentioning a form of narcissism?
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barnabywalters KevinMarks_: not at all, can be a v. useful tool
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks_: eh I do that all the time :P
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KevinMarks_ http://www.kevinmarks.com/hwc2014-08-13.html http://known.kevinmarks.com/2014/now-drinking-knowns-homebrew
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KevinMarks_ interop yay
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KartikPrabhu particularly to add marginalia to older posts :P
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tantek or follow-ups to previous posts
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KartikPrabhu yeah that too ^^
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KevinMarks_ with bridgy, when I retweet old blogposts it now spawns comment threads as me
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jonnybarnes barnabywalters: which version of java have you got installed?
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jonnybarnes i.e. openjdk or oracle jdk?
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barnabywalters jonnybarnes: OpenJDK Runtime Environment (IcedTea 2.5.1) (7u65-2.5.1-4)
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jonnybarnes cos the site recommends oracle: http://www.elasticsearch.org/guide/en/elasticsearch/reference/current/setup-service.html#_installing_the_oracle_jdk
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barnabywalters okay shrewdness users: you can now create functioning search columns!
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barnabywalters evening hacking: complete. goodnight all, thanks for the testing+feedback
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Loqi goodnight!
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kylewm benwerd: are you doing comment moderation now?
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benwerd no, but you've probably just found the bug I just found
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benwerd my site hasn't been publishing all comments; just did a full update, which hopefully fixed it
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kylewm ah ha
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benwerd ah-ha!
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benwerd would you mind repinging your comment on this page? http://werd.io/2014/ben-werdmller-posted-welcome-to-the-known-world-let-it
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kylewm benwerd: sent
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benwerd thanks
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benwerd hmm
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benwerd the weird thing is, Known sends me the notifications.
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benwerd Thanks; I'll fix this. I guess before the code makes it to the hosted service!
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tantek benwerd, the "would you mind repinging" makes me wonder if that's a limitation / weakness of webmention
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tantek like what happens if a site is temporarily offline? or if it's webmention handler is temporarily having problems? what should a mentioner do?
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benwerd agree; it's a very fragile link
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KevinMarks_ benwerd: looks like you don't get mine ether
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benwerd yeah, something broke. >:/
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KevinMarks_ http://known.kevinmarks.com/2014/knowing-me-knowing-you
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benwerd again - I totally got the email notification!
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benwerd so something caused it not to save
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tantek benwerd, should a mentioner retry? with some timeout?
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benwerd most upsetting. hopefully easy to fix.
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KevinMarks_ tantek: do we need to build rules like email for resending?
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KevinMarks_ I think here ben was acking the mention
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kylewm tantek: in this case, Known reported that it successfully recieved the message
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tantek KevinMarks_: that's what I'm wondering, or at least figure out some best practices
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benwerd tantek, kevinmarks_: I'd support that, although it could be harder for really indie folks to implement, if they don't have the ability to retry asynchronously
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KevinMarks_ this is tricky, as it is up to use to decide which ones to actually display
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benwerd and kylewm has a point - it's hard to protect against bugs like this one
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KevinMarks_ webmentions going into a mod queue is a perfectly valid idea
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benwerd kevinmarks_: that's also true - some people (including us) *might* screen comments
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KevinMarks_ we're definitely going to need commment screening at some point
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benwerd oh, but bridgy retweets save fine (albeit as comments). bizarre.
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benwerd kevinmarks_: strongly agree
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KevinMarks_ and at the point you have that, acking them and dropping them on the floor is good spam practice
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KevinMarks_ otherwise you're giving the spammer a backchannel to fuzz against
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KevinMarks_ I'm assuming a webmention ping is meant to be idempotent, and not cause cumulative copies of comments
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ShaneHudson Could the mention not need a reply like TCP? A sends to B, B says thank you, if after a day? B hasn't said thank you A sends again (with a resend param perhaps)
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tantek KevinMarks_: not quite - no need to assume, see /CRUD
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks_: yeah. i use repeat webmention pings to update/delete the comment
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KevinMarks_ ah, right
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tantek KevinMarks_: the point is that handling a webmention, whether the first time, or the nth time, is handled the same way
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KevinMarks_ though there isn't an explicit "reject duplicates" there, it is implied.
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kylewm it does sound like we need to codify the ack for asynchronous webmentions
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tantek there is no such thing as a duplicate
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tantek by definition
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tantek there are only updates
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tantek there are virtual duplicates that arrive via different pipes, e.g. an original vs a POSSE copy
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tantek kevinmarks: http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention##De-duplication
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kylewm i'd be interested to try to implement bridgy-style "retry for 3 days with exponential-back off"
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kylewm but it seems most people return 202 and queue the processing
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aaronpk would still work in the case you get 500 or something
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tantek or a 404 from the handler
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kylewm fwiw, I think Bridgy gives up immediately if there is a 404
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tantek kylewm - good to know. since there haven't been any complaints about that, might as well stick with it
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aaronpk hm now i'm reconsidering launching these changes for local archiving of linked media in favor of setting it up as a service
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@ncnapoli Any suggestions for an indieweb/ non-silo analytics? #Tryingtodegooglify (twitter.com/_/status/501874942586023936)
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tantek what is analytics?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "analytics" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=analytics
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tantek it was strange, there was a lot of passionate talking about analytics at the last Homebrew Website Club meetup, and yet none of the folks passionately talking about analytics and how they matter etc. have followed up with a wiki stub or braindump (and yes I did ask during the meetup)
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tantek I'd start a stub but I don't think it would be very productive. "analytics are a way to include a 3rd party script on your site that slows down your site in return for no discernible improvement to the user, and likely a worse user experience - the aforementioned slow down."
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aaronpk lol
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aaronparecki.com created /analytics (+30) "r for now" (view diff)
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rascul piwik on openshift is easy
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rascul https://github.com/openshift/piwik-openshift-quickstart
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aaronparecki.com edited /website-analytics (+41) "see also" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu is confused about use of analytics. would be great if people who want it added the motivation/use
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rascul i don't use it
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KartikPrabhu me neither. but presumable people see it as useful for somethign
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kylewm appropriate to redirect analytics to website-analytics? (or vice versa)
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rascul i do use goaccess though and some of those statistics interest me
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tantek.com edited /website-analytics (+354) "Criticism / Makes Your Site Slower" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /website-analytics (+60) "/* Makes Your Site Slower */ blockquote" (view diff)
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tantek rascul: feel free to add to http://indiewebcamp.com/website-analytics#Piwik
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rascul.io edited /website-analytics (+145) "/* Piwik */" (view diff)
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rascul oops forgot to put a note
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KartikPrabhu tantek: should we have a list of people who don't want to use analytics?
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tantek not sure that's useful
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tantek I just figured to add to criticism
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KevinMarks http://www.kevinmarks.com/hwc2014-08-13.html has a discussion at the top
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KartikPrabhu ok
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: I think it would be interesting to know your reason for not using analytics
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KevinMarks (I'm on my phone so hard to wikify)
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: well my reason is "why?" I don't see how it is useful to me or the readers
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: ok that's not very interesting ;)
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KartikPrabhu yeah I know :P
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KevinMarks Part of what Kate meant by analytics was understanding where people were sharing and reading her articles so she could follow their reacruobs
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KevinMarks Reactions
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks: don't know how that can be done at all
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KartikPrabhu reliably
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KevinMarks Site logs for referrers, Google analytics.
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KartikPrabhu is referrers that utm-source=??? stuff in URLs?
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kartikprabhu.com edited /website-analytics (+171) "/* Makes Your Site Slower */ async solution" (view diff)
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KevinMarks That is added in because actual referrers go away with https and mobile apps
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tantek KartikPrabhu: do you load analytics scripts asynchronously?
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tantek because if not, I'm not buying the solution
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tantek i.e. it's not a "The way to avoid this" if you can't document precisely how
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tantek (and point to a real world example)
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KevinMarks Also url shorteners that are propagation method specific
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KartikPrabhu tantek: I load no anaytics scripts. But like I said the whole "waiting" is because it is loading scripts before the page
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KartikPrabhu you will have the same problem with any large script you put in the head
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KevinMarks Which would imply distinguishing URLs for POSSE targets
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks: yup... more complications
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tantek.com edited /website-analytics (+176) "/* Makes Your Site Slower */ How? hypothetical" (view diff)