#indiewebcamp 2014-08-27

2014-08-27 UTC
paulcp, lttlman, lttlman1, wolftune, awolf, KevinMarks and snarfed joined the channel
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tantek
!tell snarfed any idea why Bridgy Publish POSSE posts to FB lack a /link-preview while Twitter to FB posts get a link-preview (i.e. the image)? E.g. https://www.facebook.com/tantek.celik/posts/10101245414331493 vs. https://www.facebook.com/tantek.celik/posts/10101245413498163
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: looks like @luxagraf was owning his own notes here https://luxagraf.net/field-notes/ til June 28, then subsequent tweets are @luxagraf Twitter only. Note also the web actions on his notes.
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: I wonder why he stopped posting on his own domain
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KartikPrabhu
given that he had so much working on it
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: I'm wondering the same thing, especially since he did keep working on his own domain and got https A+ rating fully working just recently: http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=User:Luxagraf.net&action=history
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tantek
(which is pretty awesome)
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tantek
!tell luxagraf welcome back! noticed your tweet https://twitter.com/LongHandPixels/status/504413501368987648 Congrats also on https A+ (per your /UserLuxagraf.net page). Can you make it to IndieWebCamp Cambridge? http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/Cambridge
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@iamaegibson
: Gonna try to #indieweb this blog. Got a ways to go. http://aeg.pw
(twtr.io/q3QtL76unV)
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bret
tantek_com: where do you take bug reports for falcon?
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tantek_com1
Strange, I wonder who tantek_com is.
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tantek_com1
bret, good q. Perhaps in a new section on /Falcon ?
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tantek.com
edited /Falcon (+123) "/* Working On */ bug reports"
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tantek_
good evening snarfed!
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@iamaegibson
: Let' the great #indieweb experiment begin! http://aeg.pw/t/R
(twtr.io/q3XXfTMNcs)
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kylewm
!tell tantek: to your question about Bridgy publish to FB, it doesn't have a link-preview because that has to be provided explicitly to the facebook posting API (which bridgy doesn't do)
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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snarfed
hey tantek!
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Loqi
snarfed: tantek left you a message 2 hours, 34 minutes ago: any idea why Bridgy Publish POSSE posts to FB lack a /link-preview while Twitter to FB posts get a link-preview (i.e. the image)? E.g. https://www.facebook.com/tantek.celik/posts/10101245414331493 vs. https://www.facebook.com/tantek.celik/posts/10101245413498163
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tantek_
Swarm app has 140 character limit on check-in notes (what they call "shouts") = use-case for short domains and permashortlinks
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Loqi
tantek_: kylewm left you a message 19 seconds ago: to your question about Bridgy publish to FB, it doesn't have a link-preview because that has to be provided explicitly to the facebook posting API (which bridgy doesn't do)
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snarfed
tantek_: wow, and swarm doesn't shorten links?
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snarfed
kylewm: maybe. i suspect tantek's twitter-to-fb service doesn't do that either, and yet fb does promote one of the text links to preview
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GWG
Hello, all
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snarfed
both fb's and g+'s link preview logic is somewhat opaque
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kylewm
I don't agree that it's opaque :) there is a parameter "picture" that you pass to the /feed/me edge
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tantek_
snarfed, yeah no Swarm linkwrapping (yet) and I expect new services/silos to have similar note/comment limits
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snarfed
kylewm: oh, agreed, if you explicitly set the link attachment via the api, you can get deterministic results
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kylewm
does it use opengraph stuff otherwise?
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snarfed
text links are the example here, they can be a bit unpredictable
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kylewm
for that I would think you'd at least need to pass the "link" param
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tantek_
kylewm, what do you think of Bridgy Publish grabbing the u-photo inside the h-entry to set the picture parameter explicitly?
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kylewm
snarfed: ah I see what you meant. you're right, the twitter post didn't have a picture, so it wouldn't have passed that to facebook.
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tantek_
The first u-photo (if any) inside the h-entry
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kylewm
bridgy treats an h-entry with a u-photo as a photo post, so it would be attached as a 'native' photo, not a link preview
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kylewm
snarfed: please correct me if i'm wrong!
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snarfed
nope that's right, as of a few days ago :P
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kylewm
tantek_: this is all emmak and snarfed's work
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kylewm
emmak++
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Loqi
emmak has 5 karma
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kylewm
snarfed++
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Loqi
snarfed has 40 karma
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snarfed
tantek_ is right though, we could explicitly set the link attachment in fb, we just don't yet
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kylewm
posee to facebook is weird
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tantek_
Hmm I'm not sure that's how aaronpk and others have been using u-photo
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tantek_
It started as a way to indicate a representative image for a post, not saying a post is a photo post
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snarfed
tantek_: hrm. we had lots of discussion on this, i think including aaronpk. finding. open to reconsidering it more though!
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tantek_
Pretty sure aaronpk's articles use u-photo for a representative image to with the blog post.
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snarfed
looks like aaronpk wasn't involved after all. https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/85
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snarfed
tantek_com: ok, understood. is there mf2 to identify a photo post? as opposed to just a post with a representative picture?
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kylewm
I asked tantek about it at 21st amendment after HWC that night too, but we got sidetracked talking about microformats implied properties :(
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kylewm
oh dang, that was the "lunatics running the asylum" day on IRC
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kylewm
when we discussed "photo" vs. "note with a photo"
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tantek_
oh dear
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KartikPrabhu
someone say lunatics!
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GWG
The line between genius and insanity is often blurred
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Loqi
GWG has 15 karma
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KartikPrabhu
iirc I brought up the conflict with the accepted definition of u-photo
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tantek_
wow that's a long log day
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GWG
tantek_: Is your preferred method of contact really AIM?
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tantek
GWG - yeah, on my public home page right now until I get the People Focused Comms prototype hooked up
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GWG
tantek_: How's that going?
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GWG
And does anyone actually contact you on AIM?
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tantek
sometimes yes!
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GWG
tantek_: If you said no, I'd be firing up AIM
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tantek
though I do get about 1 spam/phish a month
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tantek
which isn't too bad
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tantek
I think I got 2 in the past month after a month of nothing
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GWG
I have AIM hooked into IRC
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tantek
kylewm: that's a good capture of the issue
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tantek
so for once we actually have a more concrete use-case of need to distinguish type of post
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GWG
tantek: Things like Bitlbee are very useful in me not caring what platform I'm communicating on by unifying them all
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tantek
beyond in-reply-to, u-like-of, u-repost-of
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tantek
what is Bitlbee?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "Bitlbee" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Bitlbee
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GWG
Which seems like a very Indieweb-type concept.
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kylewm.com
edited /photos (+7) "/* Distinguishing Photos from Notes */ add link to /link-preview wiki page"
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GWG
Of course, Facebook is deprecating its XMPP Gateway on April 30, 2015. Google could do so any day, as they've sort of discontinued XMPP support with Hangouts...
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tantek
kylewm - the last time we had the larger conversation about post types (and distinguishing) we came up with some of this: http://indiewebcamp.com/posts#Kinds_of_Posts
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GWG
Thank you every platform for enticing the people I want to speak to in and then bricking up the wall behind them like the Cask of Amontillado.
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tantek
"photo" is a good test case that's clearly forcing this issue
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GWG
Okay, rant over there
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tantek
what is the Cask of Amontillado?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "the Cask of Amontillado" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=the+Cask+of+Amontillado
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GWG
tantek, do you actually want to know, or just testing if Loqi knows?
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Loqi
yeah!
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kylewm
tantek: "with an embedded image (via h-media?) -> photo", does that mean an h-media inside an h-entry?
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tantek
kylewm - great question
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GWG
Bitlbee is an IRC to chat network gateway
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tantek
we got no further than that (?) comment
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GWG
The Cask of Amontillado is a story by Edgar Allan Poe.
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tantek
I don't think anyone is doing h-media embedding
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snarfed
i kind of like GWG's proposal of h-as-image
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snarfed
(or h-as-whatever)
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tantek
snarfed - I'm not sure I do, and I came up with the h-as-* convention (by just using it in my posts as part of internal markup for /Falcon)
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snarfed
tantek: sure. as usual w/markup, i don't really care, i'll implement whatever.
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GWG
tantek: I liberated it.
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tantek
GWG - hah - I put it on the wiki and thus CC0'd it ;)
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KartikPrabhu
I agree with tantek about not upgrading h-as-* to actual mf2 markup
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GWG
I liberated it from obscurity.
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david.shanske.com
created /the_Cask_of_Amontillado (+560) "Created page with "The Cask of Amontillado is an 1846 short story written by Edgar Allan Poe. In the story, one of the characters is, while inebriated, chained to a wall and bricked up alive. Th...""
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david.shanske.com
created /Bitlbee (+315) "Created page with "BitlBee is an IRC to other chat networks gateway. BitlBee currently supports the following IM networks/protocols: XMPP/Jabber (including Google Talk), MSN Messenger, Yahoo! Mess...""
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tantek
ok aaronpk, we're going to need you on this u-photo discussion
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kylewm
an additional wrinkle for the bridgy case, i'm not sure it's ever clear that you want to include a "link" at all?
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tantek
you mean the permalink back to the original?
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kylewm
sorry, link is the name of the facebook API parameter that makes it a different style of facebook post, with the link-preview at the bottom
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tantek
oh bookmarks
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snarfed
kylewm: we could make it explicitly opt in. if you leave the checkbox checked in the preview UI, or if you explicitly include a bridgy_omit_link=false in the webmention request (non standard, i know)
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tantek
kylewm, snarfed, I have a dumb suggestion to solve this problem. out of band.
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tantek
(at least for Bridgy Publish, for now)
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kylewm
just to be clear, I'm talking about these options http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE_to_Facebook#How_we_got_here
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tantek
(either at post-type as an explicit parameter to Bridgy Publish, or make a different Bridgy Publish API call for each post type)
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kylewm
right now Bridgy includes a "note with inline citation link", adding a link-preview would make it "Note with text and link parameter"
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ScriptCodess
Say, what is "Ae"?
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ScriptCodess
related to gifs, it seems
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snarfed
tantek: sure! sounds like an expansion of u-bridgy-omit-link in https://www.brid.gy/about#omit-link
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snarfed
ok with me as long as we're actively figuring out the real mf2 solution
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tantek
hello ScriptCodess what is the context of your question?
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tantek
snarfed - we lack the publishing data/experience to come up with a good explicit markup solution
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kylewm
ScriptCodess: After Effects icon perhaps?
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tantek
hence the resistance to adopting the low-experience h-as-* class names
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ScriptCodess
kylewm: thank you. That's it.
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tantek
looks at some of the markup in IndieWeb Examples of /photos
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tantek
kylewm - you provided this example of a note with a photo that is not a photo post, but I don't see any photo at all https://kylewm.com/note/2014/05/05/1
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kylewm
tantek: thanks for pointing that out, please try again
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kylewm
side note: autolinking is hard
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tantek
oh hey there it is
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tantek
and yes it is
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tantek
kylewm - if you have autolinking test cases I'd be interested in seeing how well CASSIS.js auto_link did with them
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kylewm
tantek: it's more of an anti-test case... most naive attempts of mine have tried to incorrecly link something in this post https://kylewm.com/note/2014/03/13/2
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kylewm
so i resorted to using BeautifulSoup to exclude <a>'s and <pre>'s altogether, and only try to link in regular textContent
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tantek
interesting. I have code in my auto_link() to specifically *not* double link <a>s.
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tantek
so you can literally run the output of my auto_link() on itself and it's idempotent
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: have you looked at Bleach for auto-linking? It does those smart thing afaik
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KartikPrabhu
looks into Bundle code
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tantek
snarfed, ironically your example of a "photo(s)" post lacks any u-photo markup
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snarfed
tantek: true!
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snarfed
i'm usually a very lagging indicator of markup
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tantek
so a hypothetical h-entry reader would interpret that as an *article* based the fact that it has a *name*
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snarfed
whereas a real human reader would interpret it as a collection of photos, because that's what it is :P
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tantek
snarfed, right, it's a *collection* post, not a photo post ;)
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tantek
a /collection as it were
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snarfed
ah, i see what you mean. true
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tantek
now explicit since aaronpk started posting /collection posts
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kylewm
laughs at calling snarfed out on missing microformats on a post from 2003
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snarfed
to his credit, sounds like i did add it as an example of something somewhere in the wiki :P
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tantek
kylewm - the pages are fresh fried, not statically baked, hence it's reasonable
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snarfed
the top two posts on my h-feed right now (https://snarfed.org/ ) are actually good examples of post-with-representative-photo vs photo-post
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snarfed
not markup wise, but content wise
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kylewm
KartikPrabhu: I did look at bleach but ... a) it is slooow (bc hard dependency on html5lib) and b) i wanted to handle special parsing for @usernames and stuff too
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: oh did not know about slowness... never testes
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KartikPrabhu
err tested*
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KartikPrabhu
's language neurons are filled with math
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kylewm
i can't say with any conviction, but it did come out near the top on the little bit of profiling i've done (i run comments through it)
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kylewm.com
created /Bleach (+237) "added stub before anyone asks "What is Bleach""
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kylewm.com
edited /Python (-39) "/* Third-party Libraries */ change to local reference"
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kylewm.com
edited /Bleach (+78) "add link to documentation"
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: I'm sure there are many pieces of code that I've added without speed testing that slow my site down at the moment :(
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kylewm
bah that's nothing to feel bad for. micro-benchmarks, premature optimization, all that
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: how do you speed test your code?
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tantek
I run it on a sample JS page. If it's not instant, it gets rewritten
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tantek
I can do this because it's CASSIS which runs in both JS and PHP. And I figure the server is running PHP faster than my browser is running JS.
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kylewm
werkzeug (the server under Flask) has a built in Profiler middleware that just prints out how long a request spends in each method
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KartikPrabhu
aah I see
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tantek
on today's CPUs, unless you're doing 3D modeling or protein folding or megabytes of IO or something, your code to do pretty much anything should be instant. Zero human noticeable lag.
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KartikPrabhu
ultimately I am just thinking of pre-processing everything into HTML that the templates can just grab and insert
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kylewm
yeah... my site is not there yet :(
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tantek
then again I don't use any of that OO crap
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: yeah agreed
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: hey don't hate on OO
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tantek
OO is how you get massively nested call depths of impossible to debug code that all of a sudden gets mysteriously slow.
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kylewm
hey you can write Java in any language
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kylewm
I'm still coming to terms with Python "modules" that are basically just singletons
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KartikPrabhu
Java-- wasted a couple of months learning that hell-crap
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Loqi
Java has -12 karma
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tantek
snarfed, your most recent "photo" post lacks u-photo as well: https://snarfed.org/2014-08-23_10387
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snarfed
tantek: yes. i don't use u-photo markup yet.
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tantek
snarfed, also FYI I am seeing the "mixed content blocked" shield on https://snarfed.org/draw_group - explained here: https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/how-does-content-isnt-secure-affect-my-safety
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snarfed
tantek: yes, i know. my site isn't perfect wrt that yet. hard to do on a site with lots of old content; you'll see the same thing on lots of sites that convert to https. not a high priority for me right now.
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snarfed
most more recent pages are ok though
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tantek
ok good to know. thanks for being a trailblazer :)
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tantek
well it appears that nearly all "photo" posts are using u-photo
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tantek
and none of the "notes with photo" are
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tantek
and even Aaronpk's recent articles with representative images are NOT using u-photo
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tantek
so it appears folks have converged, whether organically or as a result of the "inmates" discussion earlier, on "u-photo" indicating a photo-post (or subtype thereof)
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tantek
has both u-photo and a p-location h-card *venue* which we had previously decided mean it was a *checkin*
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tantek
s/mean/meant
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: has both u-photo and a p-location h-card *venue* which we had previously decided meant it was a *checkin*
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tantek
since the p-location is a property of the h-entry itself, rather than say being a property of an h-photo (on u-photo) inside the h-entry, I think it makes sense to stick with p-location h-card = checkin
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tantek
whereas if you wanted to "tag" the location of the photo itself, there must be some other object nested inside the u-photo which would have such information. E.g. especially if you have multiple u-photo values, it would/could make sense for them each to have a different physical venue, even if they were part of the same post.
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: I would attribute the convergence to the inmates discussion. If there is a better/simpler markup I am all for it
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: it's unlikely that that many different people with such different sites and methods/styles of posting and implementations would converge on something unless it worked particularly well
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tantek
as inmates or not ;)
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kylewm
so tantek: how would you describe the difference between a photo post and a note with a representative photo post?
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tantek
a photo post has one or more u-photo properties of the h-entry
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tantek
according to discussion here and very consistent usage in examples
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tantek
there is no current method of inferring a representative photo of a note or other type of post
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: first u-photo = representative photo?
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: unlikely. In a photo(s) post, typically if there is more than one photo in the post, the "representative photo" is a thumbnail generated from a grid of all the photos.
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kylewm
tantek: disregarding markup, what's the difference between the two post types though? like if "a note is a short plain-text article without a title", is a photo "a note with a photo" or...?
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tantek
kylewm hard to argue/discuss that in theory (or rather you quickly get into architecture astronomy)
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tantek
better to discuss using actual examples of a note with a photo vs. a photo post
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tantek.com
edited /posts (+913) "/* Inferring post kinds from properties */ u-photo -> photo post. but p-location with venue makes it a checkin regardless. also note p-rsvp, u-like-of, u-repost-of implying post types."
(view diff)
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kylewm
just wondering if there is a difference at all, i'm not convinced there is
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tantek
in terms of how people actually publish? there definitely is - see the existing /photo#IndieWeb_Examples
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tantek
and the notes with photos below them
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tantek
kylewm you yourself posted a note with photo!
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tantek
the one you fixed!
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kylewm
the only distinction i can think of is if the caption serves the picture (--> photo) or picture serves the text (--> note)
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tantek
right, what's the primary subject of the post? the photo? or the text?
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kylewm
I did, I argued that side in the inmates debate :)
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KartikPrabhu
thinks that is sort of arbitrary
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tantek
kylewm a-ha that makes sense then
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: I have notes with auto-embedded images all the time, often not from my site. They are all notes with images/photos. None of them are "photo posts"
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: is there a difference in how I post them? or when someone views them?
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: in practice both
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KartikPrabhu
hmmm examples?
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KartikPrabhu
i don't think there is a diff when viewing at least
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tantek
photo posts today are typically actual photographs you've taken, often quite recently (like even as part of the posting process)
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tantek
viewing is the easiest difference
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tantek
look at how silos present photo posts vs. notes/links with little link-preview images.
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KartikPrabhu
again seems like an arbitrary choice
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: the examples look *very* different
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KartikPrabhu
well I am fine with calling it whatever
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tantek
actual publishing examples
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KartikPrabhu
my problem is I have never been able to decide "this will be a photo post" and "this will be a note with photos" while I am posting
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tantek
as well as the original post that was POSSEd from http://tantek.com/2014/238/t3/tough-trackattack-relay-did-all - also a note with an embedded photo
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KartikPrabhu
if others can do that then well...
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: sounds lik you only have a UI that's conducive to notes then
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tantek
photo posting UIs are typically centered around taking a photo
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: not about UIs
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tantek
in practice it is
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tantek
here's another test you can apply
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tantek
if you only have time to post half of it
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tantek
do you care more that the photo gets posted
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tantek
or the text note gets posted
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tantek
first
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tantek
and then eventually you can add the other half
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tantek
as a thought experiment
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KartikPrabhu
that is my point... I don't see them as more important or not
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tantek
I bet in actual situations you will feel strongly about one or the other being more important to publish
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tantek
this is clearly an article, has more structure etc.: https://kartikprabhu.com/article/mahabaleshwar-panchgani
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tantek
including name
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KartikPrabhu
I could add or skip name on any of them
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tantek
but you didn't
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tantek
the point is not what you could have done
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tantek
the point is what you *did* do
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KartikPrabhu
because I am testing out this note/article with photo distinction
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KartikPrabhu
I should start posting notes with titles :P
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Loqi
it is probable
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tantek
this is a photo that could be a check-in if you linked/marked up "At @owenandengine.com" accordingly but it is only a photo for now. https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/owen-engine
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: a note with an explicit name would likely be interpreted as the name (title) merely being the first part of the note.
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KartikPrabhu
is still confused
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: the point is not to try to test things out just to see if you can cause confusion (even in yourself)
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: not to cause confusion but to see what people mean by this distinction...
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tantek
the point is to document existing behaviors (i.e. how / what people post on silos and how they are presented differently) and make sure we can do the same
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tantek
on our own sites
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KartikPrabhu
possibly...
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KevinMarks
Hm, I wonder if I can make a "save to homepage" app of irc today before it redirects
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tantek
no definitely, if your goal is to "see what people mean by this distinction"
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: which is why I have been following the convention on this mostly... but not sure I like it
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: if you want to better understand "what people mean by this distinction", document more silo examples of different post types, with screenshots and permalinks
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tantek
should work anywhere KevinMarks
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KartikPrabhu
.me is on less silos that most people here :P
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: you can document other people's silo posts too
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tantek
and plenty of /silos to choose from to do your research
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kylewm
so practically is the main use case for finding "representative photo" the posse-to-facebook one?
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tantek
kylewm /link-preview is the use-case
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tantek
which is something LOTS of sites do
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tantek
Facebook (via OGP or algorithms), Twitter (via Twitter Cards, OGP), Google Rich Snippets (via microformats etc.), Pinterest (via their own algorithms)
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kylewm
OK, so I think the field is wide open if someone wants to start publishing u-representative-photo or something
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tantek
I wonder if newspapers have a term for the representative photo that accompanies an article.
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kylewm
I would be into displaying them in bookmarks posts, and maybe in reply-contxts
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tantek
we're not the first to think of this concept
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tantek
so let's see what existing usage calls it
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tantek
kylewm - precisely!
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tantek
plenty of uses of /link-preview s like that
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KevinMarks
That worked. Facebook makes a distinction between photo post and with photo
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KevinMarks
Also between an explicitly shared link and an incidental link
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tantek
yes of course it does
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KevinMarks
Let me find their page, was reading this yesterday
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tantek
that's my point. now document screenshots of those for side-by-side comparison
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tantek
the AS community made this same analysis, but failed to actually document their work
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KevinMarks
Will do, when I'm on computer not phone
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tantek
no lab notebook, no credit for science :P
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KevinMarks
Which is now painful as it's being randomly rebikeshedded
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KevinMarks
"let's abolish url" this week
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tantek
that's the penalty of not documenting your work
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tantek
it means others who also have not documented their work can play pseudo-science politics with you
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tantek
ok kylewm, snarfed, KartikPrabhu, aaronpk and whoever else "conspired" ;) to make u-photo mean "photo post", your real world publishing efforts have not gone unnoticed.
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tantek
h-entry spec updated accordingly http://microformats.org/wiki/h-entry - u-photo promoted from "proposed" to "experimental properties in use in the wild", along with the change in meaning from representative photo of the post to this is a photo post.
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KartikPrabhu
crap! that messes up my thumbnails for articles!
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KevinMarks
Activity Streams wiki was not well gardened
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KartikPrabhu
thanks to myself and others, my articles feed is now a feed of photo posts!
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KevinMarks
Partly my fault as I was trying not to visibly contribute as getting OWFa through BT legal didn't go well with
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tantek
KevinMarks not your fault in the least. It's because they had/used a mailing list and thus got distracted by having ephemeral arguments on it
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tantek
instead of actually spending their time documenting ideas, iterations, consensus on the wiki
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tantek
this is the natural consequence of nearly every community with a mailing list
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tantek
since in the short term, posting quick things on a mailing list is "easier" because you don't have to try to integrate productively with others' work
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KevinMarks
And lots of face to face meetings that didn't necessarily feed into the wiki
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tantek
all you have to do is post your own screen
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tantek
s/screen/screed
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: all you have to do is post your own screed
#
tantek
or worse, go into confrontation by default mode with email replies
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KevinMarks
So should we redo that work?
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KevinMarks
Given site deaths it should be easier now
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tantek
KevinMarks: we both have no choice, as any scientists who have to redo the work of alchemists who didn't document their work, and we *ARE* redoing this work with a document-it-as-you-implement it practical self-dog-food culture
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tantek
it's also why we've come up with far simpler methods/approaches - that happens when you're forced to implement it if you want it
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tantek
as opposed to being forced to come to some political consensus with non-implementers
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: your homework assignment/mission, should you choose to accept it, is to research what do newspapers call the photo they sometimes post with an article - do they have a special name for it like "representative photo"
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tantek
you may use any means at your disposal, including directly contacting Jeremy Zilar at the New York Times who has done research into the different names for the different sizes of headings for example
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tantek
(a shortcut would be to hack/reuse "icon" or "logo" as a property, e.g. u-icon or u-logo, but those don't exactly mean "representative photo" so we may be doing ourselves a disservice there)
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KevinMarks
Thumbnail?
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KevinMarks
Icon isn't bad
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tantek
KevinMarks: guessing at bikeshedding before researching existing use is bad form/methodology, hence why I explicitly warned against that shortcut.
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tantek
!tell snarfed,kylewm one more (hopefully minor this time) Bridgy Publish to FB request. Could I have it say "Originally published at: PostPermalinkURL" instead of "(PostPermalinkURL)" at end of FB POSSE copy? Trying for more human-friendly (paren syntax was intended for Twitter where chars are tight).
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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KartikPrabhu
tantek_ extensive searching found nothing :(
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KartikPrabhu
hero image :P
elliottucker, carlo_au, marcthiele, mcepl_, Jihaisse1, lewis_cowper, acegiak_, sandro-, jacus_, finchd_, emmak, PMurphs, lewiscowper, eschnou, Sebastien-L, KevinMarks, Phyks, dietrich and swartwulf joined the channel
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KevinMarks
Google+ calls it full bleed image for a photo post and thumbnail image for what Tantek calls representative photo https://developers.google.com/+/web/snippet/article-rendering
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@0x0acebabe
@kevinmarks "every social network will eventually contain a slow, informally specified, bug-ridden implementation of LJ friend permissions"
(twtr.io/q42ERA5Db0)
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channy.creation.net
created /ko (+2593) "/* main page for Korean */"
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channy.creation.net
edited /ko (+67) "/* add events for Korean */"
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channy.creation.net
created /ko/Getting_Started (+7655) "/* Add the first translation */"
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@LongHandPixels
@rubenlightfoot @aral no offense, but that analogy makes no sense. The #indieweb predates @Medium by what? 25 years? Silos are new.
(twtr.io/q4J8zaE2aj)
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@LongHandPixels
@rubenlightfoot @aral I think the #indieweb is more like emacs to the silos' sublime text. In ten years i'd bet emacs will still be around.
(twtr.io/q4JFzYSxd8)
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@rubenlightfoot
@LongHandPixels @aral not sure mass-accessibility has yet been achieved by #indieweb and that's the real problem.
(twtr.io/q4LHSFZqSB)
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@LongHandPixels
@rubenlightfoot be sure to check out http://indiewebcamp.com/ and if you use IRC: #indiewebcamp lots of smart people talking about this stuff.
(twtr.io/q4NrE1nEh8)
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barnabywalters
wow, the start of a korean translation! awesome!
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ben_thatmustbeme
good morning
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waterpigs.co.uk
created /Livejournal (+24) "Redirected page to [[LiveJournal]]"
(view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme
very cool. korean translation, very cool
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@aral
@LongHandPixels I can’t speak for #indieweb as ind.ie is not affiliated, however http:///manifesto/ is all about UX. +@rubenlightfoot
(twtr.io/q4ShSs7U_8)
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@LongHandPixels
@aral @rubenlightfoot no one can speak for #indieweb, that’s the point :). But yes, without good UX nothing indie has a chance against silos
(twtr.io/q4Thd4TyWS)
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@fdevillamil
@fredwilson True. Keeping your personal #indieweb space of expression is one of the most important thing to remember on the Web.
(twtr.io/q4UQFc0jsH)
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snarfed
is anyone using microformats to represent a push notification yet?
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Loqi
snarfed: tantek left you a message 7 hours, 31 minutes ago: one more (hopefully minor this time) Bridgy Publish to FB request. Could I have it say "Originally published at: PostPermalinkURL" instead of "(PostPermalinkURL)" at end of FB POSSE copy? Trying for more human-friendly (paren syntax was intended for Twitter where chars are tight).
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snarfed
i'm currently generating facebook notifications via this api: https://developers.facebook.com/docs/games/notifications/#impl
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snarfed
and i'm wondering if there's any existing mf2 i could translate to that
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snarfed
tantek_: sure! will do
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aaronpk
goooood morning lots of catching up here
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barnabywalters
snarfed: h-feed would be the place to start — some of us use h-feeds for our mentions, which is close to a notification list e.g. http://aaronparecki.com/mentions
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aaronpk
snarfed: closest thing I've done is described how this app would work http://indiewebcamp.com/mention-app
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snarfed
thanks guys
JonathanNeal_, glennjones, j12t, binbasti, hadleybeeman, jlsuttles, etymancer, the_merlin, Leeky, teknotus, tallpaul and gRegor` joined the channel
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gRegor`
KartikPrabhu: Still on for tonight?
ShaneHudson, mlinksva_, glennjones, donpdonp and neuro` joined the channel
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neuro`
Good morning.
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@calum_ryan
@onishiweb good spot. I can't be @dconstruct this year :( but hope it's good. Will be in Brighton for @IndieWebCampUK the following day
(twtr.io/q4cTfNY86Q)
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ben_thatmustbeme
good morning, all.. seems rather quiet thus far
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@onishiweb
@calum_ryan @dconstruct I have high hopes, and expect they’ll be blown away too :) Enjoy @IndieWebCampUK
(twtr.io/q4ceZVwE0Z)
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tantek.com
moved /ko to /Main_Page-ko "please see [[how-to-start-new-translation]]. And thanks for starting this!"
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tantek.com
moved /ko/Getting_Started to /Getting_Started-ko "please see [[how-to-start-new-translation]]. And thanks for starting this!"
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@merlinrebrovic
Very interesting talk about escaping web silos "Tantek Çelik - The once and future IndieWeb" https://www.youtube.com/
(twtr.io/q4csGYsFhw)
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gRegor`
Morning, neuro`, ben_thatmustbeme
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gRegor`
and the rest of indiewebcamp that's awake
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tantek.com
edited /Main_Page (+61) "/* Translations */ +Korean!"
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tantek.com
edited /other-languages (+62) "/* translations ordered by number of articles */ +Korean!"
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tantek.com
edited /Bitlbee (+94) "stub, dfn, lists"
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tantek.com
edited /Bitlbee (+22) "link to home page"
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tantek.com
moved /Bitlbee to /BitlBee "canonical capitalization"
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tantek.com
created /bitlbee (+21) "r"
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tantek.com
edited /the_Cask_of_Amontillado (+325) "dfn, linky linky, hotlink wikipedia image"
(view diff)
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@ShaneHudson
@onishiweb Are you staying for @IndieWebCampUK too Adam? I am :) Should be good! cc @calum_ryan
(twtr.io/q4dzoCwukL)
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gRegor`
what is the Cask of Amontillado?
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Loqi
The Cask of Amontillado is an 1846 short story written by Edgar Allan Poe http://indiewebcamp.com/The_Cask_of_Amontillado
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gRegor`
Hah
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gRegor`
what is Bitlbee
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Loqi
BitlBee is a communication gateway from IRC to other chat http://indiewebcamp.com/BitlBee
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gRegor`
I had not dug far enough into Bitlbee to realize it did Twitter API. Might have to try that out.
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gRegor`
Bitlbee => indieweb post could be cool.
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gRegor`
Post notes directly from IRC.
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bret
gRegor` bitlbee to micropub
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gRegor`
Yep
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bret
i should do that
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Loqi
I agree
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gregorlove.com
edited /BitlBee (+117) "Bitlbee to micropub idea"
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gRegor`
wikified
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aaronpk
whoa someone made a korean version of the home page? http://indiewebcamp.com/Main_Page-ko
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gRegor`
Yep. And /Getting_Started
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aaronpk
wow, awesome
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@onishiweb
@ShaneHudson @IndieWebCampUK @calum_ryan no plans to at the moment, not really my scene, probably stay and catch up with friends :)
(twtr.io/q4f5a1rx9L)
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bret.io
edited /BitlBee (+106) "/* Ideas */ Webmention notifications"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /The_Cask_of_Amontillado (+94) "expand dfn to include context of why it is documented here on IWC"
(view diff)
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bret
that was the most screwed up poe story
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tantek.com
created /the_cask_of_amontillado (+37) "r lowercase"
(view diff)
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bret
haha
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aaronpk
just noticed that all the links on the ko page are ko/* vs the fr pages which are *-fr
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Loqi
awesome
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tantek
what is the cask of amontillado?
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Loqi
The Cask of Amontillado is an 1846 short story written by Edgar Allan Poe in which a character is chained to a wall and walled up, analogous to many silo practices http://indiewebcamp.com/The_Cask_of_Amontillado
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tantek
aaronpk will fix
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aaronpk
I think the what is search is not case sensitive
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tantek
WHAT IS THE CASK OF AMONTILLADO?
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Loqi
The Cask of Amontillado is an 1846 short story written by Edgar Allan Poe in which a character is chained to a wall and walled up, analogous to many silo practices http://indiewebcamp.com/The_Cask_of_Amontillado
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aaronpk
hahahaha
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aaronpk
I do like having the /ko URL as the main page for that language
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aaronpk
nicer URL to share
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aaronparecki.com
created /fr (+25) "add /fr redirect to french main page"
(view diff)
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tantek
aaronpk, agreed
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bret
aaronpk whats a good time to get to esri?
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aaronpk
bret: 6ish?
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@kevinmarks
“the personal blog, yourname•com, where you control everything and get to do whatever the hell pleases you” http://avc.com/2014/08/the-personal-blog/ #indieweb
(twtr.io/q4h3APHYWw)
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aaronpk
KevinMarks_: nice
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aaronpk
my favorite quote
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aaronpk
"I wanted to reply to that comment, but could not for the life of me, log into WordPress to leave it. So I’ll blog about it instead."
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tantek
THIS: "I wanted to reply to that comment, but could not for the life of me, log into WordPress to leave it. So I’ll blog about it instead."
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tantek
haha yeah aaronpk
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aaronpk
so good
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aaronpk
need a good blockquote style for p3k
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tantek
!tell snarfed can you reach out to Elizabeth http://elizabethspiers.com/2014/08/25/here-i-go-again-on-my-own/ and get her setup with IndieWeb WordPress plugins so we can bring her up to speed on what blogs are like in 2014?
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek
aaronpk - see Tumblr's "quote" post type for good blockquote styling examples
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aaronpk
this is why I have a tumblr account, for testing stuff like this
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@kevinmarks
“I miss being able to engage other people online in discussions that are actually productive.” @espiers http://elizabethspiers.com/2014/08/25/here-i-go-again-on-my-own/ #indieweb
(twtr.io/q4hWfpM1iU)
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk
it would be great if indienews also presented quotes like kevin posts better
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aaronpk
I really like KevinMarks_'s plaintext format for quotes. I wonder if that could be parsed out automatically and styled better on my ow nsite
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tantek
aaronpk, you could add it as a microformats.org/wiki/picoformat
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aaronpk
yes that's the word I was looking for
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tantek
aaronpk I tumblr reblogged your quote post just to see what that would look like
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aaronpk
interesting
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tantek
I don't like the way it shows up - it doesn't credit you as a /repost should IMO
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tantek
via is insufficient
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aaronpk
and it looks different still in my tumblr dashboard http://aaronparecki.com/uploads/tumblr-20140827-101259.png
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aaronpk
agreed, "via" makes it look hand-typed
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tantek
yeah - follow my Tumblr and see how it looks even worse when I reblog it
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aaronpk
and often "via" posts have original content by the poster, not strictly a repost
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tantek
in your dashboard view of my reblog of your quote post
#
tantek
right - it makes it look like I'm saying it which I'm not
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tantek
doubly indirectly so even
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tantek
ok since you've made both those screenshots, that's worthy of adding to http://indiewebcamp.com/Tumblr#Criticisms
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aaronpk
needs to get to work on his repost post types
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aaronpk
I have a pretty good idea of how I want to show things now, and I have a feeling it will stir up a lot of discussion
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tantek
Poor Repost Presentation
#
tantek
and Poor Quote Post Presentation
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KevinMarks
Twitter had that problem too
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tantek
Tumblr gets so many other UX things right that it's worth documenting when they screw up UX/Presentation
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tantek
KevinMarks: Twitter retweets are much less problematic
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tantek
native retweets that is - that preserve the original poster's icon
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KevinMarks
I should make a tool for doing this that generates an image too
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aaronpk
an image?
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tantek.com
created /respot (+20) "typo"
(view diff)
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gRegor`
aaronpk: Does your setup allow you to post quotes like that in a <blockquote>?
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aaronpk
not yet
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aaronpk
Now i'm considering a picoformat match for quotes and doing that automatically
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aaronpk
kind of like the autolinker for plaintext notes
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tantek.com
edited /Tumblr (+422) "/* Criticisms */ bad presentation in Tumblr, who knew? quote posts are hard, reposts are hard"
(view diff)
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gRegor`
Nice
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gRegor`
The tumblr cross-post is a "quote" format, thought, right? Or is that just a text note?
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aaronpk
I posted a "quote" post on tumblr
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gRegor`
Makes sense.
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tantek.com
edited /Tumblr (+3) "move Downtime inside criticisms, move TOC out of the way of images"
(view diff)
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tantek
awesome aaronpk. http://indiewebcamp.com/Tumblr#Poor_Quote_Post_Presentation is all yours. edit token reliquished. :)
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gRegor`
An auto-quoter that extracts the author name from the cited URL's author would be cool.
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aaronparecki.com
edited /Tumblr (-53) "use local images"
(view diff)
yakker and snarfed joined the channel
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tantek
gRegor`: and automatically links the <blockquote cite> to the fragmention of the quote
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aaronpk
gRegor`: yeah totally. was thinking about doing that for page title as well for my bookmarks
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gRegor`
s/author/h-card/
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Loqi
gRegor` meant to say: An auto-quoter that extracts the h-card name from the cited URL's h-card would be cool.
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aaronpk
tho now i'm reconsidering what exactly a bookmark means on my site, since a lot of them would look like blockquote posts
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gRegor`
Ooh, yeah tantek.
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tantek
ah I'd called it /quotation when I documented this before
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tantek.com
edited /quotation (+88) "/* How to markup */ ideally using a fragmention"
(view diff)
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snarfed
gRegor`: looks like the 401 is because you're replying to someone whose account is protected, which bridgy can't do (unless that person signs up for bridgy too)
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Loqi
snarfed: tantek left you a message 22 minutes ago: can you reach out to Elizabeth http://elizabethspiers.com/2014/08/25/here-i-go-again-on-my-own/ and get her setup with IndieWeb WordPress plugins so we can bring her up to speed on what blogs are like in 2014?
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aaronpk
oh hey that page links to a bunch of my bookmark posts already
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snarfed
gRegor`: the error message could be better though. mind filing an issue? https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues
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snarfed
tantek: sure! i'd just make happy noises and link her to /WordPress#Adding_Indieweb_Support.2FElements_to_a_Wordpress_Site, but i'm happy to do that
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tantek
snarfed - that would be GREAT
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eliemichel
aaronpk: I see that you use a wordpress blog to store your bookmarks. Do you know about Shaarli?
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tantek
regardless of the outcome, we will learn from the engagement
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aaronpk
eliemichel: yes I think I tried out shaarli at one point!
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tantek
waits to see /bookmark posts get higher up on aaronpk's Itches list ;)
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eliemichel
I added a pull request for Shaarli to send webmention 3h ago ;)
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tantek.com
created /quote (+23) "r"
(view diff)
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aaronpk
eliemichel: NICE!
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aaronpk
eliemichel++
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Loqi
eliemichel has 2 karma
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tantek
eliemichel awesome!
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tantek
what is Shaarli?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "Shaarli" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Shaarli
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eliemichel
tantek: it's little web-program you can install to store & share your bookmarks
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tantek.com
edited /Tumblr (+29) "/* Mapping of Tumblr post types to ActivityStreams */ linky linky"
(view diff)
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aaronpk
heh my bookmarks issue already has a comment about making sure quotations are handled referencing that page https://github.com/aaronpk/p3k/issues/19#issuecomment-46062652
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aaronpk
clearly I have gone down this train of thought before
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tantek
eliemichel: great! could you create /Sharli accordingly by clicking that link that Loqi posted above?
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Loqi
grins profusely
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eliemichel
the last one?
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aaronpk
the "it looks like..." line
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tantek.com
edited /Tumblr (+12) "/* Criticisms */ morelinky"
(view diff)
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tantek
eliemichel: yes that one
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tantek.com
created /reblogs (+20) "r"
(view diff)
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eliemichel
tantek: what exactly do you intend me to do actually?
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eliemichel
sry…
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tantek
eliemichel: click the link to create the page and then copy paste the description of Shaarli that you typed here in IRC - that's fine to start a stub with
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tantek
see http://indiewebcamp.com/start_a_page for more on how to start a page
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eliemichel
okey =)
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tantek.com
edited /microsyntax (+12) "/* See Also */ posse"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /POSSE (+58) "/* Related */ microsyntax"
(view diff)
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snarfed
gRegor`++
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snarfed
gRegornobacktick++
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Loqi
gRegornobacktick has 12 karma
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gRegor`
Hehe
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tantek.com
edited /microsyntax (+89) "subheads on brainstorming"
(view diff)
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aaronpk
tantek: lol I was just adding those subheads
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gRegor`
snarfed: Is that a privacy concern issue, or does the Twitter API not allow retrieving the tweet ID since it's private?
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aaronpk
yours are better tho
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snarfed
gRegor`: i believe the latter
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gRegor`
I guess it's the latter. That would make sense.
#
snarfed
gRegor`: i don't even try to retrieve it, just create a reply to it, but still
#
gRegor`
Otheriwse you could harass private accounts
#
gRegor`
given their tweet URLs
#
exppad.com
created /Shaarli (+486) "Add Shaarli page"
(view diff)
#
snarfed
gRegor`: eh you can harass private accounts anyway, just @ mention them
#
snarfed
but yeah
#
aaronparecki.com
edited /microsyntax (+1088) "/* Brainstorming */ add quotations section with examples and list of plaintext components of a quotation"
(view diff)
#
gRegor`
True. "blocked" and "private" got crossed in my mind.
#
gRegor`
coffee++
#
Loqi
coffee has 20 karma
#
tantek.com
edited /note (+252) "/* Picoformats */ microsyntax for local thoughts"
(view diff)
#
gregorlove.com
edited /projects (-159) "/* Shaarli */ Removed my 'interest' note; not likely to happen anytime soon. :) Linked to new wiki page."
(view diff)
#
gRegor`
Shaarli is also at http://indiewebcamp.com/projects#Shaarli Feel free to merge this into the new page as necessary
#
tantek.com
edited /exercise (+131) "POSSE"
(view diff)
#
eliemichel
gRegor`: thx
#
tantek
oh this is interesting it looks like http://elizabethspiers.com/ is on Tumblr
#
gRegor`
And also can list yourself there if you're running Shaarli, eliemichel :)
#
aaronpk
tantek: looks like wordpress to me, I have the wordpress header there when I click it
#
tantek
no I am mistaken. I was confused by a very Tumblr looking (+) Follow button in the lower right corner
#
KartikPrabhu
gRegor`: yup!
#
tantek
hahahaha http://avc.com/2014/08/the-personal-blog/#disqus_thread "So why aren't they on Disqus? If they want a community to flourish, Disqus is a better lubricator than Wordpress comments. " ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?
#
gRegor`
what is folksonomy?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "folksonomy" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=folksonomy
#
aaronpk
just noticed the old delicious is still up at http://icio.us/ even though it says it will be shutdown(sic) by April 2014
#
gRegor`
Ha!
#
gRegor`
Wait, which old delicious? old-old delicious? or old-old-old**short circuits**
#
tantek
better: "what's the difference between Facebook which has a business of using your data to drive ads and Disqus which is in the exact business?"
#
snarfed
(tantek: aaronpk: she's actually on wp.com, which is why i only linked her to bridgy, not plugins or anything else)
#
gRegor`
betterer: "When I send my URL (www.arnoldwaldstein.com) to new clients and and say--this is me--it feels just great each and every time." http://avc.com/2014/08/the-personal-blog/#comment-1561441162
lttlman joined the channel
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tantek
I'm waiting for KevinMarks to take these quotes we're finding and tweet them as nicely as he does
#
exppad.com
edited /projects (+124) "/* Diaspora */"
(view diff)
#
bret
What is WebDAV?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "WebDAV" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=WebDAV
#
ben_thatmustbeme
what is shaarli
#
Loqi
Shaarli is a simple web program you can install to store and share your bookmarks http://indiewebcamp.com/Shaarli
#
aaronparecki.com
edited /p3k (+12) "/* Backwards-Compatible Support */ linky"
(view diff)
#
bret
does anyone here use / have used webDAV for anything?
#
bret
which apps that you use have webdav?
#
aaronpk
Skitch
#
aaronpk
(old version)
#
bret
heh cool
#
aaronpk
and Finder
#
aaronpk
but I don't use it from Finder often
#
exppad.com
edited /projects (+65) "/* Shaarli */"
(view diff)
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aaronpk
tantek: his site doesn't show the in-reply-to URL or reply context because of a wordpress issue
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tantek
the "welcome back!" at the start seems out of context - to whom?
#
tantek
aaronpk, is there a plugin for that?
snarfed and lttlman joined the channel
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KevinMarks
Switch site-deathed my images :(
#
tantek
!tell snarfed snarfed - is there a missing reply context on https://snarfed.org/2014-08-27_here-i-go-again-on-my-own-elizabeth-spiers ? the "welcome back!" at the start seems out of context - to whom?
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
tantek
what is Switch?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "Switch" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Switch
#
aaronpk
i think that's the problem... plugins can't add things to the theme or something
#
snarfed
tantek: we've had this conversation two or three times before :P
#
Loqi
snarfed: tantek left you a message 18 seconds ago: snarfed - is there a missing reply context on https://snarfed.org/2014-08-27_here-i-go-again-on-my-own-elizabeth-spiers ? the "welcome back!" at the start seems out of context - to whom?
#
KevinMarks
s/Switch/Skitch/
#
Loqi
KevinMarks meant to say: Skitch site-deathed my images :(
#
aaronpk
snarfed: can you document on /Wordpress so we don't keep asking?
#
tantek
what is Skitch?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "Skitch" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Skitch
#
snarfed
aaronpk: it's more an issue with my site than wordpress
#
snarfed
or maybe with me personally :P proper reply contexts just aren't a big itch for me
#
snarfed
hah. tantek, if i documented that kind of thing anywhere, it'd be on my site, not on the wiki :P
#
snarfed
it's a good nudge! worth writing up
#
snarfed
this is definitely a big reason my replies aren't easy for visitors to stumble across: they're not particularly good
#
snarfed
er, make that, why i intentionally don't make them easy to stumble across
#
snarfed
tantek: how did i do what?
#
tantek
without her changing her blog to support webmentions + microformats?
#
snarfed
manual
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tantek
oh man, I thought maybe you had added a Bridgy Publish Reply to Wordpress blog feature
#
tantek
just as you have a Bridgy Publish Reply to Facebook post feature
#
snarfed
good feature request!
#
snarfed
assuming the api lets you do that without the site owner approving the app. not sure.
#
exppad.com
created /User:Exppad.com (+410) "Created page with "When I discoverd the word of blogging, you though it would be nice to have it a little more "social". For example, being aware of who quote us, or being able to react to other pe...""
(view diff)
#
tantek
snarfed - curious why your manual comment on her post didn't link to the permalink of your reply on snarfed.org
#
snarfed
tantek: partly because i usually omit them when they don't have anything extra, and partly because i'm lazy :P
#
tantek
seemed like a teachable moment, that's all
#
tantek
whoa the post she links to has a screenshot of IE5/Mac! http://lockhartsteele.com/blog/2014/08/back-to-the-blog/
#
snarfed
sure, understood
#
KevinMarks
In the context of avc, disqus is a good community because Fred tummels it
#
KevinMarks
Also, he's an investor in it so they may be sucking up
#
tantek
ah there's the missing context.
#
tantek
is reading /irc/2014-07-15 in an attempt to better understand the lunatics. ;)
#
tantek
GWG, you mentioned "thumbnail/featured image idea in WordPress" - could you link to a more detailed description of this "idea"?
tantek_1 and lttlman joined the channel
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tantek_1
ok so I'm guessing it takes a while for nicknames to timeout, hence why there is a tantek_ and tantek_com in the channel already, from my previous use of the ?beta IRC UI
#
snarfed
tantek: tantek_1: aaronpk: ask and ye shall receive! https://snarfed.org/why-i-dont-have-reply-contexts
#
tantek_1
!tell KartikPrabhu re: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-07-15/line/1405446385000 "sometimes feels we are trying to fit square pegs in round holes..." which is why we document real world examples/URLs of square pegs *before* making the mistake of designing round holes for them.
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
tantek_1
snarfed - it's fine to not use post types at all. And a funny admission for an ActivityStreams advocate. ;)
#
snarfed
tantek_1: heh, sure. i don't actually feel that strongly about activitystreams, it's just the only hammer i had at the time
#
tantek_1
reuse++
#
Loqi
reuse has 1 karma
#
tantek_1
reinvention--
#
Loqi
reinvention has -1 karma
#
ben_thatmustbeme
tantek_1, when i was trying on mobile as soon as i lost signal it had booted the user
#
ben_thatmustbeme
i think you can only use nickserv to kick dead connections of registered users
#
tantek_1
really appreciate mko arguing / pointing out the UX perspective over and over in the /irc/2014-07-15 discussion
#
tantek_1
thanks gRegor` for kicking off and encouraging http://indiewebcamp.com/photo#Discussion
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tantek_1
welcome back KartikPrabhu
#
@johakuhn
Love that the #IndieWeb-Debate (from which I heard the first time yesterday) is getting ahead. http://avc.com/2014/08/the-personal-blog/
(twtr.io/q4rmif3tXj)
#
Loqi
KartikPrabhu: tantek_1 left you a message 6 minutes ago: re: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-07-15/line/1405446385000 "sometimes feels we are trying to fit square pegs in round holes..." which is why we document real world examples/URLs of square pegs *before* making the mistake of designing round holes for them.
elliottucker and gRegor` joined the channel
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aaronpk
tantek: the web clients should leave IRC when the window is closed or the websockets connection is lost.
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tantek_1
aaronpk, in that case it seems that Firefox is holding on tight ;)
#
tantek_1
across sleeping/waking etc.
#
aaronpk
interesting
#
bret
aaronpk are you running an irc client for the web client basically?
#
aaronpk
basically yeah. it's in node
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bret
heh neato!
#
bret
something I can read! :)
benwerd, hidgw and KartikPrabhu joined the channel
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tantek_1
I like this too https://twitter.com/gRegorLove/status/489276808458547200 and fits the "build and use your own site" vibe of IndieWeb.
#
@gRegorLove
@anomalily @veganstraightedge My latest favorite alternative is "build your own light saber."
(twtr.io/oZ1f2dqJf0)
#
tantek_1
yet wondering if analogy to "Jedi" may be perceived to be too elitist.
#
ben_thatmustbeme
i think it very much would be
#
tantek_1
plus those robes never seemed very functional
#
benwerd
does, however, want to build his own lightsaber.
#
Loqi
benwerd: KevinMarks_ left you a message on 8/22 at 4:41pm: the POSSEd HWC has today's date
#
Loqi
benwerd: barnabywalters left you a message 2 days, 8 hours ago: noticed duplicates of http://known.kevinmarks.com/2014/kevin-marks-posted-i-frequently-retweet-old-style-to-add in shrewdness, same content is served from both that URL and http://known.kevinmarks.com/2014/i-frequently-retweet-old-style-to-add-extra-info-usually — what happened here? content edit? URL structure edit? the one starting “kevin-marks-posted-” appears to be the canonical one (linked from
#
tantek_1
lol
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Loqi
benwerd: aaronpk left you a message on 8/25 at 1:05pm: is there an open issue on Known to support Micropub? If not, I will gladly create one!
#
benwerd
waits ..
#
tantek_1
benwerd, I fixed the HWC POSSE copy issue.
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ben_thatmustbeme
if they could build lightsabers why didn't they just build a bunch of them together and build a lightshield too?
#
benwerd
tantek_1: I saw that; thanks!
#
tantek_1
different power requirements? besides, the Gungans already built lightshields.
#
benwerd
nonetheless, a jedi assembly line might have been a shrewd move.
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bret_web
/exit
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benwerd
aaronpk: Known supports micropub via a plugin! *AND* I solved the crazy issue that prevented werd.io from supporting it.
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ben_thatmustbeme
actually probably just the kurosawa influence
#
tantek_1
I don't the Jedi wanted to arm everyone with lightsabres - too much likelihood for people cutting off their own body parts.
#
benwerd
(aaronpk: combined indieauth + micropub plugin)
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benwerd
tantek_1: agree, was surprisingly unenlightened legislation
#
tantek_1
finished reading /irc/2014-07-15
squeakytoy joined the channel
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tantek
hey KevinMarks - can you invite all the Tummlr and other techie types you usually do to tonight's HWC? http://indiewebcamp.com/events/next-hwc
friedcell and pdurbin joined the channel
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tantek
!tell gRegor`, KartikPrabhu were you able to reach out to the usual Chicago hopefuls? Mari and I forget the other person's name that has @-replied a bunch on Twitter about Chicago HWC
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
gRegor`
I sent the standard invite tweet with links to the event and FB copy. Margot RSVPed on FB and has really wanted to make it before, so hopefully she will.
#
Loqi
gRegor`: tantek left you a message 52 seconds ago: were you able to reach out to the usual Chicago hopefuls? Mari and I forget the other person's name that has @-replied a bunch on Twitter about Chicago HWC
#
gRegor`
I have not heard back from Denton or Mari this week.
mdik joined the channel
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gRegor`
Invited adactio since he's here for a conference, but he's flying back this evening unfortunately.
#
tantek_1
!tell GWG you mentioned "thumbnail/featured image idea in WordPress" - could you link to a more detailed description of this "idea"? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-07-15/line/1405446335000
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
tantek
gRegor`: yeah I saw that
#
gRegor`
Twitter shows tantek's favorite of this tweet in my notifications, but not on the tweet permalink itself. Interesting. https://twitter.com/gRegorLove/status/489276808458547200
#
@gRegorLove
@anomalily @veganstraightedge My latest favorite alternative is "build your own light saber."
(twtr.io/oZ1f2dqJf0)
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gRegor`
Even after hard refresh.
#
gRegor`
I feel like similar discrepancy was noted before
#
snarfed
gRegor`: twitter fave and rt indicator icons are often flaky :/
#
tantek
gRegor`: shall I try unfave and refave?
#
tantek
it shows it as favorited to me, but no icon of me
#
tantek
in the facepile
#
gRegor`
Also interesting, @t profile does not show the link to your favorites. Perhaps because you're not following me back.
#
gRegor`
Oh, let me check the facepile.
#
gRegor`
@aaronpk shows a link to his favorites, but he's following me
#
tantek
gRegor`: try making your window wider ;)
#
tantek
(or check the More v menu)
#
gRegor`
Not under "More"
#
tantek
weird. it is just twitter.com/t/favorites
#
gRegor`
Full width on 1080p :)
#
gRegor`
Yeah, just noting the oddity of the link missing.
#
tantek
weird. well direct URL then.
#
tantek
also, when did Twitter favorites (as in your own username/favorites page) display order switch from ordered by date-when-favorited-most-recent-first to date-when-original-tweet-published-most-recent-first ?
#
tantek
gRegor`: ok I will unfave and refave, watch this
#
tantek
boom, now in the facepile
#
gRegor`
tantek: It's been original-tweet-publish order for quite some time. I don't remember it being different, actually.
#
tantek
it used to be the other way, based on when you favorite it
#
tantek
which is how Flickr favorites works for example
#
tantek
it was better, because you could be like what was that thing I just favorited and then go check your favorites and see it - regardless of how old the original post was
#
gRegor`
Lulz. Now Lilly's dropped off the facepile and it still lists "2 favorites". When I click 2, though, it pops over and lists all 3.
#
tantek
gRegor`: silo scaling problems
#
gRegor`
Agreed. I would prefer most recent first list of favorites.
#
gRegor`
And maybe an option to sort by original published date.
#
tantek
do you have a gregorlove.com/likes page?
#
gRegor`
No, I'm not publishing likes yet.
#
tantek
is it on your itches?
#
tantek
along with that ordering preference?
#
gRegor`
Adding it now. Likes are a pretty low priority, though.
#
tantek
fair. it's worth documenting even low priority itches just to get them out of your head so you can focus on the higher priority ones :)
#
gRegor`
Yep. Building quite a list. :)
#
tantek
tell me about it ;) /Falcon#Working_On
KartikPrabhu joined the channel
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aaronpk
tantek: should we add /page-name to the microsyntax list? ;)
#
tantek
or just domain relative /path in general?
#
gregorlove.com
edited /User:Gregorlove.com (+229) "/* Interests */ Stars"
(view diff)
#
tantek
(probably)
#
gRegor`
On that same tweet above, when I click the number of favorites, at the bottom it says "-1 users have asked not to be shown in this view."
michiell joined the channel
#
tantek
that is so weird
#
gRegor`
I think that means Twitter owes me a favorite? :)
#
gRegor`
Anyway, enough tinkering with this oddity.
#
@npdoty
@aaronpk is the Portland branch of Indiewebcamp meeting tonight? I happen to be passing through town.
(twtr.io/q4wj9P5UbG)
crossdiver, KartikPrabhu, paulcp and newbie|2 joined the channel
#
neuro`
KevinMarks: speaking of avc, he published an interesting post today about personal blogging, http://avc.com/2014/08/the-personal-blog/
#
tantek
neuro`: indeed, that post and the ones he linked to have been all the buzz this morning in the channel. see indiewebcamp.com/irc/today :)
#
neuro`
tantek: and I'm blogging about it too :)
#
neuro`
just finished my post.
#
tantek
woot!
#
tommorris.org
edited /The_Cask_of_Amontillado (+20) "wikipedia link fix"
(view diff)
paulcp and scor joined the channel
#
tommorris
so, Twitter opened up analytics today. you can now see how many people saw your tweets
#
aaronpk
is it open to the public now? it's been open to "ad partners" for a while
#
aaronpk
oh wait no this is different
#
aaronpk
holy crap "Number of times users clicked on the Tweet to view more details"
#
tommorris
I'm going to see if I can have a sneak peek at the ad partner dashboard and compare tomorrow.
#
aaronpk
can't help but notice the giant "export data" button in the corner!
#
tantek
lol "A problem occurred while loading the page. To use this site, you need to disable AdBlock or any other ads-blocking extension you are using, or customize it to show ads on this site."
#
aaronpk
tantek: I got that too :)
#
aaronpk
holy crap you can get all the data as a csv
krendil joined the channel
#
tantek
KevinMarks: will ask if it is TSV ;)
#
aaronpk
i dunno but it opens fine in excel
#
tommorris
no, CSV
#
tommorris
and the data goes back to 2013-10
#
aaronpk
seems the stats only go back to 2014-08-22
#
tommorris
ah, perhaps it's just the last N tweets
#
aaronpk
the "impressions" do anyway, I have "engagement" data farther back
#
snarfed
interesting. i wonder how much of the twitter analytics thing is just messaging. you could sign up for twitter ads before, with zero budget, and see basically the same data
#
snarfed
i did that a long time ago
#
aaronpk
snarfed: they didn't show impressions before
#
snarfed
aaronpk: aha
#
aaronpk
nor the detail of things like "Number of times users clicked on the Tweet to view more details"
#
aaronpk
is the other ad dashboard still up somewhere? (you got access to that by signing up for twitter cards)
#
tommorris
aaronpk: yeah, impressions for me only goes back to 2014-06-10. but metrics total has 2271 entries for me
#
tommorris
just did a quick sum of the impressions column - 208,871. Twitter ought to be paying me a CPM rate.
#
tommorris
has the nasty sinking feeling that he will soon be asked to write a parser for the Twitter engagement data CSV
#
tantek.com
edited /Events (+83) "emojicon"
(view diff)
#
tantek.com
edited /videos_about_the_indieweb (+85) "emojicon, no longer a stub, active voice"
(view diff)
KartikPrabhu joined the channel
lttlman joined the channel
#
tantek.com
edited /2014/UK (+83) "emojicon"
(view diff)
#
tantek.com
edited /2014/UK (+4) "shift emojicon down"
(view diff)
#
tantek.com
edited /IRC (-12) "shorten the longest heading so that it shrinks to the TOC"
(view diff)
frontwards joined the channel
#
tommorris
watches KevinMarks' Ignite talk and applauds on behalf of his genderqueer and non-binary friends. KevinMarks++
#
tommorris
oh, that can't be in a /me
#
tommorris
KevinMarks++ then
#
Loqi
KevinMarks has 48 karma
#
tommorris
If programmers were building databases 50 years ago, they'd be encoding racial segregation. Today, they are unwittingly encoding cisnormativity. (And if you don't know what that is, check your favourite search engine.)
#
KevinMarks_
Thanks Tom. We had exactly that with vcard 4
#
tantek
KevinMarks_: you mean we *fixed* that in vCard4
#
tantek
(and had to fight non-trivially for it)
#
tantek.com
edited /IRC (+99) "emojicon, move TOC below logs grid"
(view diff)
dariusdunlap and paulcp joined the channel
#
KevinMarks_
We did, yes. I meant we had programmers advocating a "simple obvious" sex field
#
tantek
!tell aaronpk seems like the months=6 param on showing only 6 months of logs has broken here and it is showing *all* months: http://indiewebcamp.com/IRC#Logs
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
tantek
KevinMarks_: unfortunately that won't stop the problem tommorris is pointing out, because programmers love to makeup their own database schemas from scratch over and over and over
#
tommorris
tantek: does microformats.org wiki count my hazy recollections as a source for the history of gender representation. because I distinctly remember that there was a protest on MySpace where people would just put "GENDERQUEER" in various fields to fuck with their metadata. alas, the URLs probably do not resolve
#
tantek
is looking for an emoji for /principles
Erkan_Yilmaz joined the channel
#
KevinMarks_
👸 🎨 -ess -ette
#
tommorris
tantek: I have my own emjoi: ™
#
tommorris
(And the trade mark symbol is a valid emoji according to the Unicode standard. I checked.)
#
KevinMarks_
📜or
#
tantek
parchment?
#
KevinMarks_
📃
#
tantek
how about 💞 ?
#
tommorris
and on emoj.li, I have registered the username "™ðŸ‘¬"
#
tantek
tommorris: amaze
#
tommorris
Unicode also contains a symbol for aubergine (eggplant): 🍆
#
tommorris
I once posted the aubergine symbol into #wikipedia-en and got sternly told off because it is part of a range of Unicode characters that cause certain unpatched versions of Xchat for Windows to crash.
#
tommorris
Apparently, Xchat for Windows took the XML approach to error handling: catastrophic failure.
#
KevinMarks_
🗽 could be principles
#
eliemichel
='( my IRC client can't see any of your emojies
#
tommorris
KevinMarks_: you know http://enwp.org/🗽 is a redirect to the Statue of Liberty article, right?
#
eliemichel
(except for ™)
#
tommorris
my emoji is the best.
#
tantek
what is 🗽?
#
rascul
those weird emoji things look like black question marks inside a white circle to me
#
KevinMarks_
🚷 is the emoji for schema
#
KevinMarks_
As well as 🌋 📠
#
tantek
note 👹?
#
tantek
s/note/not
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: not 👹?
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tantek
KevinMarks_: if someone hasn't registered volcano fax on emojli you should go get it just for scheama
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KevinMarks_
💒 is odd, what's that called?
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tantek
wedding chapel (guessing)
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ben_thatmustbeme
this is the weirdest conversation for me since none of those render at all
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tantek
how about 🗿 for long web?
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KevinMarks_
™ is a different code point than ™?
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eliemichel
rascul: that means that your client can't show it
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rascul
i agree
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eliemichel
I see all of the emojies like so
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rascul
i wonder if maybe it's a font thing
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eliemichel
good idea
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eliemichel
well, the result is not so better
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rascul
what are the numbers in the boxes?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "the numbers in the boxes" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=the+numbers+in+the+boxes
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KevinMarks_
Is there an emoji for shed?
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eliemichel
I soo utf codes inside a square…
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rascul
utf? ok thought so
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eliemichel
rascul: this is another way of saying "hey, can't render that symbol"
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rascul
yeah, i didn't know what the numbers inside the boxes were though
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neuro`
tantek, KevinMarks_ which fonts are you using?
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eliemichel
I believe this is utf, but I did not check
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eliemichel
rascul: What language is your system configured to use?
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tommorris
Damn you Twitter. http://enwp.org/🗽 isn't considered a valid link
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rascul
english
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eliemichel
it may be a local problem
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eliemichel
erf
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eliemichel
it may not be
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eliemichel
I wondered since mine is French
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rascul
i'm trying different fonts but none of them show any different for me
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eliemichel
I don't use the same font in my browser and my IRC client
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tommorris
zomg wikipedia emoji redirects is my new favourite thing.
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eliemichel
The only common point is that both of them use gtk
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KevinMarks_
Chrome doesn't show them (except on android)
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eliemichel
but anyway, this is not interesting on that chat
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tantek
tommorris: what do you think inspired all the redirects I added to the iwc wiki?
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tommorris
I wonder if compound emoji redirects will get me into trouble
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tommorris
so, what you are saying is we need stubs on IWC for all emojis. CHALLENGE ACCEPTED.
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tantek
or at least redirects where they make sense
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tantek
note you may find the easy ones already done :)
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KevinMarks_
💒 is wedding officially
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tommorris
📟 already done
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tantek
KevinMarks_: what was that tommorris was saying about normatism?
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tantek
wedding implies church?
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KevinMarks_
🏩 is love hotel
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tantek
tommorris: if you refer to them with a leading / then they'll hyperlink in the logs too
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tommorris.org
created /📠 (+23) "the fax machine lives"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /principles (+139) "emojicons"
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tommorris
👯 may be against the code of conduct
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "http://enwp.org/👯 " yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=http%3A%2F%2Fenwp.org%2F%F0%9F%91%AF+
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tommorris
tantek: 'Cosplay'
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tantek
!tell aaronpk if someone asks what is http://example.com/ a URL then Loqi could retrieve the title of the page instead of looking for /
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tommorris
tantek: if you try and create a Wikipedia page with emoji in, you get this warning - http://cl.ly/image/3r1x3k423f0Y
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ben_thatmustbeme
yay, i see them now
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Loqi
does a happy dance!
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tantek.com
edited /principles (+44) "linky"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /Getting_Started (+93) "emojicon"
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tantek.com
edited /projects (+94) "emojicon, move TOC below under construction"
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tantek.com
created /📑 (+22) "r"
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ben_thatmustbeme
and what should /💩 be?
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tantek
I got it
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tantek.com
created /💩 (+22) "r"
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tantek.com
created /ℹ (+29) "r"
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tantek.com
edited /🗽 (+1) "better"
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ben_thatmustbeme
#⃣ to fragmention?
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JonathanNeal
responds to the bat signal
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tantek.com
edited /principles (+8) "/* Plurality */ projects emoji"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
created /✊ (+27) "r"
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KevinMarks_
Wow, the Mac OS ones are ugly compared to the android ones
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tantek.com
created /😋 (+25) "r"
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ben_thatmustbeme
i want to sit down some day and just write a story using only emoji
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tantek.com
edited /selfdogfood (+87) "emojicon"
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tantek.com
created /📓 (+26) "r"
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snarfed
ben_thatmustbeme: we had an (internal) postmortem at google that was entirely in meme
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snarfed
it was pretty epic
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tantek.com
edited /own_your_data (+86) "emojicon"
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ben_thatmustbeme
okay, train ride home time
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ben_thatmustbeme
hopefully its not delayed too much
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tantek.com
edited /start_a_page (+87) "emojicon"
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tantek.com
created /📐 (+20) "r"
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tantek.com
edited /design (+94) "emojicon"
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tantek.com
created /✂ (+17) "r"
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tantek.com
created /🌐 (+29) "r"
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tantek.com
created /🎉 (+17) "r"
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snarfed
can i send Loqi and the emoji edits to #indiechat? :P
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tantek.com
edited /lulz (+87) "emojicon"
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tantek.com
created /😂 (+18) "r"
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tantek.com
created /🌈 (+29) "r"
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tantek.com
edited /code-of-conduct (+95) "emojicon"
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tantek
tommorris: you figured out the answer for that emoji that wp thinks is cosplay
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tantek.com
created /👫 (+29) "r"
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tantek.com
created /👬 (+29) "r"
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tantek.com
created /👭 (+29) "r"
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tantek.com
created /👪 (+29) "r"
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tantek.com
edited /💏 (+11) "better"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /💑 (+11) "better"
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tantek.com
created /🎭 (+29) "r"
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tantek.com
created /👯 (+29) "r"
(view diff)
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tantek
what is love?
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tantek.com
created /📺 (+39) "r"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /Main_Page-de (-8) "stub with link to only German translated page so far"
(view diff)
KartikPrabhu and snarfed1 joined the channel
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ShaneHudson
Wow, Tantek has been busy
pauloppenheim, benwerd and RichardLitt joined the channel
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tantek
welcome RichardLitt!
benwerd and ZackaryDoyle joined the channel
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RichardLitt
Thanks tantek
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eliemichel
tantek: <3 /love ^^
dariusdunlap, wolftune, crossdiv3r and gRegor` joined the channel
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gRegor`
Hello from Chicago HWC
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aaronpk
oh my god you guys... so emoji
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Loqi
aaronpk: tantek left you a message 2 hours, 41 minutes ago: seems like the months=6 param on showing only 6 months of logs has broken here and it is showing *all* months: http://indiewebcamp.com/IRC#Logs
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Loqi
aaronpk: tantek left you a message 2 hours, 14 minutes ago: if someone asks what is http://example.com/ a URL then Loqi could retrieve the title of the page instead of looking for /
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aaronpk
why doesn't this page actually show the page contents? http://indiewebcamp.com/%E2%9C%8A
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aaronpk
oh it's a double redirect issue
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gRegor`
OMG, what does it mean?
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rascul
it means party time
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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gRegor`
Margot is here at Chicago HWC for the first time, http://pitchdesignunion.com/
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gRegor`
Helping her get set up with indieauth and sign in to the wiki
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gRegor`
She does mostly graphic design, history in print design, some code (Ruby, PHP)
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gRegor`
And then there's Kartik and me.
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gRegor`
Nobody wants to know more about those two. ;)
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gRegor`
She's heard good things from multiple people about http://macaw.co/