#indiewebcamp 2014-09-20

2014-09-20 UTC
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iamshane.com edited /PostgreSQL (+2136) "/* Shane Becker / Homesteading */" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Blogger (+4) "linky js" (view diff)
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gavinc On the other hand, so many vistors and mentions! ;)
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tantek.com edited /search (+4) "/* searchability */ l js" (view diff)
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tantek hey gavinc!
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tantek.com edited /citation (+4) "/* append to text selection copy */ l js" (view diff)
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rascul.io edited /static_site_generator (+160) "/* Popular and Documented SSGs */ Add a couple more SSGs, sort list, provide links" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /icon (+4) "/* iOS site as app */ l js" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Phono (+4) "linky js" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Trovebox (+4) "/* Reliance on Javascript */ l js" (view diff)
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shaners_ tantek: Homesteading uses jQ in the posting interface. For geo lookup, field pre-populate and character/word counts.
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butter tantek i wrote http://src.whats-your.name/ww/ruby/mail.rb.html to deal with email. it's running on http://m.whats-your.name/today?set=dir&view=threads
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tantek shaners - good to know - add to /jQuery#Projects
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butter you'd have to run mbox2md or something to spit out individual messages.e it indexes on an as-seen basis, primarily symlinks used to reconstruct threads, and some per-address index-dirs
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shaners_ tantek: YOU'RE NOT THE BOSS OF ME!!! :P
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shaners_ opens wiki backup to edit more
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tantek shaners, pretty please, with a cherry on top. 🍒
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dumnut hi all
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gavinc good evening folks
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tantek.com edited /WebRTC (+4) "linky js" (view diff)
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iamshane.com edited /jQuery (+39) "Adds Homesteading" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /about.me (+4) "linky js" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /node.js (+123) "linky, see also" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /node (+21) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /js (+24) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /JSON (+50) "abbr" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /JS (+24) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /JavaScript (+279) "stub" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /languages (+253) "stub" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /CORS (+21) "see also js" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /shebang (+4) "linky js" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /indie-config (+4) "linky js" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /registerProtocolHandler (+4) "linky js" (view diff)
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tantek what is ZOPE?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "ZOPE" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=ZOPE
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tantek what is XFS?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "XFS" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=XFS
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tantek what is ext4?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "ext4" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=ext4
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tantek gavinc?
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@david_adamson I'm curious about the idea of #indieweb publishing platform and how it differs to other blogging sites #withknown http://davidadamson.withknown.com (twitter.com/_/status/513121029552492545)
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tantek btw I'm having dinner with @mnot of https://twitter.com/mnot/status/512950082069479424
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@mnot @postwait the audience there is people who aren't very technical yet want to self host. Different to general advice for web debs. Cc @t (twitter.com/_/status/512950082069479424)
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tantek what is redis?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "redis" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=redis
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tantek rascul? ^^^
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tantek (I noticed you typed/pasted a bunch about it - enough for a stub page for sure!)
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gavinc ZOPE... might be worth describing unless there's already a pile of old CMSes section of the wiki?
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tantek ooh maybe old projects?
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gavinc what is CMS?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "CMS" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=CMS
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gavinc Okay THAT page should exist :D
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tantek lol
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@depoisfalamos Is this for real? http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/513122787226312704)
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shaners_ I feel like there's an opportunity here to reframe the db or flat files thing.
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tantek shaners are you kidding? I can't believe how much attention it is getting.
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tantek who knew people were so passionate about plumbing.
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shaners_ Maybe there could be a two column comparison table (like when a company is compary its product to another company's product. [or different pay levels of a product]).
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kylewm shaners_: do you mean reframe it as something like "database vs flat file tradeoffs"?
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shaners_ kylewm yes
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kylewm couldn't agree more
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shaners_ One column about flat files, one column about db.
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tantek can you provide a good example of a two column comparison that is actually readable / useful?
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shaners_ tantek: i'll look around, yes
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kylewm tantek: was /database-antipattern written by someone not passionate bout plumbing?
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tantek because most such marketingware company product comparisons tend to be crap, with very carefully chosen columns/rows to show a biased view.
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tantek kylewm - hence why I wrote it as a wiki article, not a blog post shouting from the skies.
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tantek I just captured all the pain points I had seen in real world experience
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tantek factual rather than passionate
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shaners_ but my main point / concern here is that the name of the page (and the content of the page) doesn't really acknowledge the trade offs. OTHER PAGES on the wiki do (to a degree), but A: need more attention (from me and others) and 2: are other pages :(
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tantek kylewm - clearly I need to ship a high-performance structured-flat-file library to as step 2.
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shaners_ tantek: facts are always passionate ;)
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gavinc also, I'd worry a bit about ballence... have you seen the responce? there is a frighting number of people that think web applications or sites HAVE to have databases
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benatkin maybe we should call LevelDB and BoltDB phat file databases
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tantek kylewm - you yourself remarked at how surprised you were at the performance of my site based on dynamically building pages from a flat file storage.
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gavinc I blame MoveableType ;)
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tantek gavinc - the response has been 99% emotional. "Is this for real?" "Words cannot describe" "wut" "stay away" etc. and thus indicates likely presence of Cargo Cult Programming.
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tantek since people defend with emotions (rather than reasons) when they've adopted something for Cargo Cult reasons, rather than actual thoughtful rational reasons.
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benatkin seems to have some of the advantages and disadvantages of flat files
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tantek hey benatkin! nice to see you here again.
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kylewm gavinc: totally. that's why i thought youmightnotneedjquery.com could be a good model. You might not need a database
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benatkin tantek: thanks :)
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tantek benatkin - we've upgraded our IRC logs since you were last here, check it out: indiewebcamp.com/irc/today
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tantek and then go edit indiewebcamp.com/irc-people and add an icon/avatar to your entry like a few of us already have
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benatkin tantek: I might have been there for that actually :)
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tantek gavinc, speaking of - you should add yourself to indiewebcamp.com/irc-people
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tantek shaners - you too should edit indiewebcamp.com/irc-people and add an icon/avatar to your entry
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shaners_ tantek: on it
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tantek nice
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kylewm tantek: i'm not sure why you said "you yourself remarked at the performance of my site" ... i'm not saying flat files are slow
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shaners_ but mostly, I don't care enough (about this db/flatfile debate) to care, which is why i've not put any effort into the db side of the conversation on the wiki. i've always thought that it wasnt worth my/our time to even talk about.
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tantek shaners - I only found it worth documenting because I noticed a pattern of problems (around using databases for personal site content) that no one else had actually collected into an article - so I collected it.
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tantek Felt like one of those "denial" things in the industry.
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tantek and turns out, there very well may be some denial as evidenced by the overwhelming emotional-only response!
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kylewm maybe a title that uses "risks", "problems", "concerns", "costs", etc. instead of "antipattern" then?
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benatkin so far I haven't seriously compared apple/oranges for storage
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iamshane.com edited /IRC_People (+56) "/* Nicknames */" (view diff)
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benatkin usually I just quip about /dev/null
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benatkin this isn't going to get me to talk seriously about it :)
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tantek kylewm - I only brought it up because a) you remarked at last HWC how flat files were giving you perf problems and then b) I noticed you switched (back) over to using a DB for your site content storage (edit today)
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tantek understanding the reasoning behind such decisions is useful
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512837875126136832 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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gavin.carothers.name edited /IRC_People (+63) "/* Nicknames */" (view diff)
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kylewm tantek: you are observant :) i tried to make that edit covertly
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gavin.carothers.name created /User:Gavin.carothers.name (+32) "Created page with "[http://gavin.carothers.name Me]"" (view diff)
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kylewm sort of like in Shawshank Redemption how he only hammers on the pipe when there's lightning to cover the noise
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/aaronpk/513012939377217538/513019012360699904 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=database-antipattern&action=historysubmit&diff=13413&oldid=13272 (webmention)
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tantek oh yeah - had forgotten about that. useful.
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benatkin maybe we should rebrand indieweb as #ownyourdata
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benatkin just a wild idea
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kylewm so my rationale was: i was thinking about how not to have 9 zillion small files, while still making it easy to make small atomic edits (like adding a reply context asynchronously), and keep indexes searchable by type and tag
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benatkin I like the name indieweb though
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shaners_ benatkin: indieweb is more than just data ownership
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kylewm and started feeling like "i'm going to have to write an awful lot of code to reinvent sqlite"
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benatkin it's worth the occasional misunderstanding about it
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benatkin shaners_: yeah, I'm just not as interested in those parts as some, but it's probably just because of apathy
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kylewm so i switched back to sqlalchemy and deleted several hundred lines of code, which felt nice
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gavinc Dealing with databases is exactly why gavin.carothers.name back running wordpress on wordpress.com and not home rolled :( Databases are enough fun at work all day
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@veganstraightedge I don't agree with all things that all #indieweb people/projects are doing. But I don't have to do them on my site / in my software. (twitter.com/_/status/513129496023539712)
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tantek kylewm - true about "have to write an awful lot of code" or at least - spend an awful lot of time thinking about storage design
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@veganstraightedge I don't think monolithic apps are a good idea. (Most #indieweb implementations have been pretty monolithic, so far.) (twitter.com/_/status/513130557375385600)
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tantek gavinc - fascinating, it's due to your data being stuck in a database that's preventing you from hosting your own site on web hosting instead of wordpress.com?
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gavinc nope, it was when I thought about setting up paggerduty for mine (and my wife's) blog when they went down when I screwed up a postgres upgrade :D
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gavinc getting it out and into wordpress import format seemed easier to keeping running my own database :\
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gavinc and NOW, yeah getting back out of the database with comments etc is much more annoying then getting everything into wordpress xml. So likely just do it again via a wordpress xml export
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@veganstraightedge I don't like PHP or Node (personal preference) and a fair bit of #indieweb work is being done in those languages. (twitter.com/_/status/513131864442146817)
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@veganstraightedge Though, I do think it's great that #indieweb ideas/ideals/experiments/technologies/designs are being exercised multiple languages/tools. (twitter.com/_/status/513132255154163712)
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tantek gavinc - it sounds like use of databases has trapped you in the WordPress monoculture ecosystem.
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tantek shaners nice icon in the logs :)
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tantek I appreciate your consistency. ;)
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shaners_ Can't stop. Won't stop.
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shaners_ tantek the only reaason i have my face in my footer is to make Google happy for the author post ownership thing
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benatkin is trapped in the dogescript ecosystem
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tantek shaners - Google has dropped the author post ownership thing.
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shaners_ well well.
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kylewm benatkin: http://werd.io/?_t=dogeon
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shaners_ of course they dropped it.
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tantek shaners - I'm just here to be helpful.
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shaners_ tantek do you have a url about it, or just observed it?
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benatkin haha aweome
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tantek documenting as we speak
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shaners_ of course you are
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shaners_ you should make a single serve website: istantekdocumentingsomethingrightnow.com (yes|no)
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Loqi yea!
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tantek.com edited /authorship (+147) "/* Silo Implementations */ move Google to Past Implementations" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /authorship (-1) "/* Past Implementations = */ -=" (view diff)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512909675080069120/513135459380498433 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-09-19 (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512909675080069120/513135614556782592 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-09-19 (webmention)
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acegiak So I've got a font of my handwriting. Is it super lame to use it for article titles on my site?
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512837875126136832 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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bret acegiak: not lame at all!
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bret just make sure to define fallback fonts or whatever so slow computers can start displaying text before the font loads
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bret or whatever is required to work around that no text before fonts load bug
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/aaronpk/513012939377217538/513019012360699904 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=database-antipattern&action=historysubmit&diff=13413&oldid=13272 (webmention)
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acegiak bret: yeah, good plan
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bret and when you are done document it on http://indiewebcamp.com/fonts ! I had a similar idea a while back and never looked into it
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acegiak GWG: have we talked to pfefferle about adding a pre_content hook to sempress to use with indieweb taxonomy?
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acegiak bret: will do
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bret (or your own site, and link)
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bret acegiak++
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Loqi acegiak has 4 karma
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GWG acegiak: I did a long time ago
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KevinMarks_ http://howfuckedismydatabase.com
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acegiak I'm assuming that's a reverse normalisation test?
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acegiak oh wait, no. it's hillarious
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acegiak bret: I made the font because I wanted to make a "Happy Anniversary" card for my wife
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acegiak and I always do these long heartfelt handwritten cards
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acegiak but it's our 10 years since we started dating anniversary so I wanted to up my game
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GWG acegiak: Congratulations
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acegiak so I made a font of my handwriting and then made a webpage with the "handwritten" message on there with pictuers and had a song fom when were teenagers playing
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acegiak like, the full myspace combo
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acegiak and then made a QR code for the page and handdrew it into the card I gave her
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acegiak thus completing some weird hand writing/internet loop
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bret heh nice!
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acegiak GWG: thanks!
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tantek___ hello back on the web Irc client
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@judsonlester RT @veganstraightedge: I don't like PHP or Node (personal preference) and a fair bit of #indieweb work is being done in those languages. (twitter.com/_/status/513147480704573440)
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@kevinmarks @AmyStephen do you like these tenets? http://indiewebcamp.com/Principles come chat in irc http://indiewebcamp.com/irc (twitter.com/_/status/513149566032433153)
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Loqi [mention] http://bavatuesdays.com/becoming-well-known/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (pingback)
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@topgold Trying to spring free from the database tax. http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/513150269501497344)
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@veganstraightedge The #indieweb has never been about declaring independence *from* the internet. It's individuals making independent websites. (twitter.com/_/status/513155006782902272)
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@kevinmarks RT @veganstraightedge: The #indieweb has never been about declaring independence *from* the internet. It's individuals making independent… (twitter.com/_/status/513155425781293057)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512837875126136832 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/aaronpk/513012939377217538/513019012360699904 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=database-antipattern&action=historysubmit&diff=13413&oldid=13272 (webmention)
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KartikPrabhu shaners_: a bit curious about this comment: https://twitter.com/veganstraightedge/status/513130557375385600 ?
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@veganstraightedge I don't think monolithic apps are a good idea. (Most #indieweb implementations have been pretty monolithic, so far.) (twitter.com/_/status/513130557375385600)
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shaners_ KartikPrabhu what are you curious about?
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KartikPrabhu shaners_: what you mean about "monolithic" apps in this context?
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shaners_ One app/codebase/repo to do all fo the things. Instead of a collection of little apps that each do one small thing.
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shaners_ For example:
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KartikPrabhu oh I see. fwiw I have been trying to keep all pieces of my site separate
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shaners_ One could have an app for CRUD of a post type (or all posts), and a separate app that does just in and outbound webmentions, another one for posse sydication etc.
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KartikPrabhu shaners_: yes exactly...
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shaners_ They're different architerctural approaches that come with their own trade offs. Like everything.
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KartikPrabhu I think we agree on not having monolithic software, but I don't know how much others have been employing this modularity
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shaners_ Again, I don't think monolithic is a good idea, but I don't particualry care how other people build their software.
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KartikPrabhu shaners_: agreed again :)
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shaners_ 👍
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@veganstraightedge I disagree with Shanley on some (not all) of her technical assessment of the #indieweb. But... (twitter.com/_/status/513159649000824832)
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@veganstraightedge I do think Shanley is right on about the lack of meaningful diversity in the #indieweb community. We need to work real hard on that. (twitter.com/_/status/513159997631393792)
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@kevinmarks RT @veganstraightedge: I do think Shanley is right on about the lack of meaningful diversity in the #indieweb community. We need to work re… (twitter.com/_/status/513160863172153344)
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@papa_fire This has got to be an elaborate trolling, otherwise all is lost for this industry http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/513163969788653568)
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bret dude! so cool, Ben and Erin got to talk about known with Douglas Rushkoff
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acegiak shaners_: does the network of plugins for wordpress that have been popping up count as monolithic?
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benatkin didn't realize indiewebcamp was an alternative to c2 :)
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shaners_ acegiak: Meh. It's cool that WP has a plugin architecture to add new features / functionality. But ultimately they all get loaded into big app, at least from a URL sense of it.
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acegiak yeah, fair enough
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shaners_ I.E., I can't drop a WP plugin into any other kind of app to use it. I have to use WP. Bc it's integrated at the app level, not the URL/HTML/HTTP level.
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acegiak it's been nice seeing how the plugin devs (myself included) are trying to make things that rely on each other as little as possible
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shaners_ Totally for sure.
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shaners_ I'm not dogging it. Just saying I am taking a different route.
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@benatkin #indiewebcamp is the new c2 http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern http://c2.com/cgi/wiki (twitter.com/_/status/513168028280684545)
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kylewm benatkin: Ward has been to a couple of IWCs
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GWG acegiak: That reminds me. More tweaks I need to make.
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kylewm shaners_: what language do Homesteading components talk to each other in?
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benatkin kylewm: dumb question: what are IWCs?
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shaners_ benatkin Indie Web Camps
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kylewm benatkin: not a dumb question, I shouldn't use opaque acronyms
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benatkin oh, right
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shaners_ kylewm They're coded in Ruby. But interop at HTTP / HTML / URL level.
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kylewm huh, cool
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acegiak is there a guide somewhere on how to properly use a mediawiki talk page?
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benatkin I figured, I've interacted with Ben a couple of times on twitter
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benatkin I was at IWC 2012. maybe I met him.
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shaners_ just like two any two indieweb sites
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shaners_ our "internal" communication looks just like HTML + microformat feed reading.
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KartikPrabhu shaners_: I would go as far as saying it is HTML+mf2
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KartikPrabhu it doesn't matter what the backend is
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shaners_ KartikPrabhu: correct.
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KartikPrabhu I don't have to care at all if the other person uses PHP/Python MySQl/Postgress/flat-file or even ASP
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shaners_ one of the (many) knock on benefits of this approach is that we can use other people's software (as long as it reads or writes HTML+uf2 over HTTP). and vice versa. someone making php software could run our ruby app/s alongside theirs and interop at the HTML/HTTP level.
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@benatkin "The Mess We're In" by Joe Armstrong: http://www.youtube.com/ via @YouTube /cc #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/513170515205177344)
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KartikPrabhu exactly! I have used Quill which presumably is PHP (aaronpk? ) to post tp my Python-based site
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shaners_ KartikPrabhu totally for sure
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KartikPrabhu and the whole webmention commenting thing still looks like magic to me!
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acegiak KartikPrabhu: same
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@Johannes_Ernst RT @veganstraightedge: I do think Shanley is right on about the lack of meaningful diversity in the #indieweb community. We need to work re… (twitter.com/_/status/513171389134557184)
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acegiak.net created /fonts (+234) "Added link to documentation on handwritten post titles" (view diff)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512837875126136832 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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kylewm acegiak: oh no, I'm getting 403 Forbidden on your font
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KartikPrabhu acegiak: same here. the handwritten font does not show
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/aaronpk/513012939377217538/513019012360699904 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=database-antipattern&action=historysubmit&diff=13413&oldid=13272 (webmention)
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acegiak whaaat
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acegiak how about now?
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KartikPrabhu acegiak: bingo!
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acegiak I keep forgetting to fix permissions when I paste files
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kylewm.com edited /database (+13) "/* Software */ add SQLite" (view diff)
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@libel_vox RT @veganstraightedge: The #indieweb has never been about declaring independence *from* the internet. It's individuals making independent… (twitter.com/_/status/513174880905199616)
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@benatkin @brixen @veganstraightedge @aral I mean "you do not" can be interpreted as a veiled threat. embarrassing to me as an indieweb participant (twitter.com/_/status/513175580301217792)
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kylewm.com created /SQLite (+495) "stub in and add examples" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: just setup a Django instance with SQLite. You think it is an advantage to have a single local db file ?
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: probably not :)
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KartikPrabhu it does help portability though. You can just copy the local file around no?
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shaners_ When doing Rails work, I use SQLite single file db when doing local devleopment.
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kylewm yeah that is what i like about it, I can just scp the file to my laptop and work locally
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KartikPrabhu yeah just attempted to do that but other way around. waiting for DNS propagation to go through to see if it worked
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kylewm the major issue so far is that you cannot drop or rename columns
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KartikPrabhu oh! hmm weird
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KartikPrabhu I'll have to see how Django's db handling does migrations then
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benatkin shaners_ do you use the built-in http server in development? or something like thin?
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KevinMarks_ Previously: https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/400393251053510656
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@kevinmarks @dhh if document centric apps are important, why use an ORM based framework like rails that forces documents into sql tables? (twitter.com/_/status/400393251053510656)
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KevinMarks_ Response : https://twitter.com/dhh/status/400396569763000320
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@dhh @kevinmarks For the vast majority of apps, I still consider a relational database to be the best starting point. (twitter.com/_/status/400396569763000320)
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ben_thatmust_ hey all
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GWG Hello
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ben_thatmust_ oh KevinMarks_ the storm you started..
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ben_thatmust_ seems to have calmed down quite a bit though
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kylewm.com edited /Red_Wind (+1922) "/* Features */ explain rationale for going back to a cursed database" (view diff)
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kylewm wow... @dhh sounds so reasonable there
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512837875126136832 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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kylewm why does that one keep getting sent? ^
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/aaronpk/513012939377217538/513019012360699904 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=database-antipattern&action=historysubmit&diff=13413&oldid=13272 (webmention)
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kylewm ah interesting, webmention.io doesn't like the emoji https://www.brid.gy/log?start_time=1411188460&key=aglzfmJyaWQtZ3lyNQsSCFJlc3BvbnNlIid0YWc6dHdpdHRlci5jb20sMjAxMzo1MTI4Mzc4NzUxMjYxMzY4MzIM cc: aaronpk
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@ianosh RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/513190003019509762)
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KevinMarks_ RDBMSes, though much more reliable than most user-written transaction processing code, are not nearly as reliable as a basic Web server pulling static files out a file system. Prepare to hire a half- or full-time database administrator 
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KevinMarks_ http://philip.greenspun.com/panda/databases-choosing
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benatkin I kinda agree with database-antipattern
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KevinMarks_ (from a text cited against database-antipattern)
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KevinMarks_ also http://epeus.blogspot.com/2008/01/fear-of-new-internet-tea-and-mapreduce.html
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@benatkin YAML/JSON hybrid idea: https://github.com/resources/swon #ownyourdata (twitter.com/_/status/513195824793153536)
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@benatkin YAML/JSON hybrid idea: https://github.com/resources/swon #ownyourdata (twitter.com/_/status/513196189961826305)
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@dixus RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/513198843786448897)
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KevinMarks_ Wait, what? Yaml is already a superset of json
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techlifeweb Looks like Twitpic isn't going away after all. Got acquired. http://www.geekwire.com/2014/photo-sharing-service-twitpic-will-live-thanks-acquisition/
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512837875126136832 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/aaronpk/513012939377217538/513019012360699904 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=database-antipattern&action=historysubmit&diff=13413&oldid=13272 (webmention)
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@fdevillamil RT @veganstraightedge: The #indieweb has never been about declaring independence *from* the internet. It's individuals making independent… (twitter.com/_/status/513204503387316224)
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benatkin KevinMarks_: because YAML has a complex spec
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KevinMarks_ No shit - it took down rubygems
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KevinMarks_ Even python doesn't do indentation centric data structures
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acegiak all this discussion of the database antipattern is just making me feel bad about liking wordpress
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tantek acegiak - it shouldn't. If WordPress works for you then great, stick with it!
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@kevinmarks @waxpancake @obra when you start, we should have a chat about distributed RSVPs - see the yes/no/maybe replies here http://known.kevinmarks.com/2014/indieweb-xoxo-breakfast (twitter.com/_/status/513213906638995458)
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@discoursology Excellent article on the "techno-pädagogische Komplex". Edtech capitalism and indieweb (German). #pb21 | http://pb21.de/2014/09/bildung-von-oben-der-techno-pdagogische-komplex/ via @schb (twitter.com/_/status/513216819617079296)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512837875126136832 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/aaronpk/513012939377217538/513019012360699904 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=database-antipattern&action=historysubmit&diff=13413&oldid=13272 (webmention)
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neuro` Good morning.
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@RayGallon RT @veganstraightedge: The #indieweb has never been about declaring independence *from* the internet. It's individuals making independent… (twitter.com/_/status/513222322904662016)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512837875126136832 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/aaronpk/513012939377217538/513019012360699904 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=database-antipattern&action=historysubmit&diff=13413&oldid=13272 (webmention)
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@aral @benatkin @brixen @veganstraightedge Why are you wilfully misreading what I wrote? (And I do not speak for indieweb but indie tech—ind.ie) (twitter.com/_/status/513237191070588928)
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tantek.com edited /database-antipattern (+2) "br for readability" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu it is not good when everyone claims misinterpretation ^^
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@JuliaEksner RT @discoursology: Excellent article on the "techno-pädagogische Komplex". Edtech capitalism and indieweb (German). #pb21 | http://t.co/O4A… (twitter.com/_/status/513243982441484288)
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petermolnar come on, is that flamewar still on on twitter? I'm getting the feeling we somehow need to clarify ind.ie != indieweb
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@thierrymarianne RT @veganstraightedge: The #indieweb has never been about declaring independence *from* the internet. It's individuals making independent… (twitter.com/_/status/513246688329621504)
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@petermolnar RT @veganstraightedge: The #indieweb has never been about declaring independence *from* the internet. It's individuals making independent… (twitter.com/_/status/513247053192122368)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512837875126136832 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/aaronpk/513012939377217538/513019012360699904 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=database-antipattern&action=historysubmit&diff=13413&oldid=13272 (webmention)
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butter oh, that shanley SJW will be around for a while. give her 7-8 years to mellow out
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KartikPrabhu butter: what's a SJW?
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butter for her own sanity though, why the hell is she in San Francisco? after 3 years, i'd had enough
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butter "social justice warrior"
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butter apparently, the indieweb scene is guilty of all sorts of ills and must be shamed
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butter it wouldn't shock me if a lot of google employees don't even like the products, but do it because it's how they can make a living. and want decentralized/p2p stuff for their own sites
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butter i mean, ive met CISCO, etc employees that hated the products
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KartikPrabhu butter: Shanley is right about the non-diversity here. But it is a problem that we are aware of and try to tackle
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butter the sausage-party, and insane-rents of SF, combined with having to work on least-common-denominator, centralized/proprietary consumer-crap ..
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butter jeez. move to Sacto or at leas tsome part of the east-bay where yuppies hate or haven't found.. so you can relax
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butter some people just like torture
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KartikPrabhu butter: please... this is over doing it...
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butter over doing what.
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KartikPrabhu talking about Shanley and her motivations
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butter i presume it's mostly boredom
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butter otherwise, there'd be exciting stuff to hack on. ie where's her github. how many commits an hour?
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acegiak butter: link?
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KartikPrabhu and her life. It is her business.
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tommorris let's be positive and not get into silly pissing wars.
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butter oh, that's a message to everyone
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butter EVACUATE SF
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petermolnar Shanley 13 h "White men CANNOT BY DEFINITION lead the "independent web" movement to save us from the surveillance machines they built & profit from." Seriously? That woman is nuts.
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butter the monoculture was definitely a turnoff, but i dont go ranting about it. i jsut found somewhere diverse and interesting. ie Brooklyn
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tommorris I agree butter. I've been to SF/SV. I like SF but not SV so much. do prefer living in London. :)
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tommorris NHS FTW.
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acegiak oh man. I have spent so much time just using whisperfollow for my content feed that I totally forgot reddit is a thing
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acegiak I think that's a win?
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KartikPrabhu acegiak: seems so.
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petermolnar sorry, no more comments on the topic
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butter a filesystem is a database. so it's confusing reading that wiki-article
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butter it just happens to be a better databse for 99% of use-cases where you don't need extremely sophisticated querying-capability and want much easier backup/redundancy/basic-manipulation ability.. via all the existing UNIX tools, rsync/scp/nfs etc
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butter better yet, just use file: or https:// URIs and whatever index you want *and* files... SPARQL, Mongo, Redis...
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KartikPrabhu butter: speaking as a non-dev, I think of file system and databases as different things. technically they both store things but from a usage pov they are quite different
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KartikPrabhu looking at a MySQL database, still gives me shivers
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alanpearce MySQL is a bad example of a 'database' IMO
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butter acegiak: reddit is mostly open-source. except the automoderator/spambot engine/rules stuff, whether for cat+mouse or whatever
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butter and, it's probably way too huge to consider indie, ie how man IT experts and what size cluster do you need to launch reddit on your own hw?
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KartikPrabhu alanpearce: it is the most ubiquitous. Also, non-dev folks are not in a position to make that judgement.
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acegiak oh god, subreddits have RSS feeds.
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butter you can cluster subreddits into a feed too.
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butter using + to concatenate..
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tommorris The only thing I'd suggest we might learn from the database-antipattern twitter shitfest is that when there's a topic where people in the community differ (I use postgres, don't have an issue with it), it's probably best to, say, post the bulk of the content on our own sites and then link out. so instead of a page called "database antipattern", we just have
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tommorris a page called databases, and then if you feel strongly that databases are a bad idea, post it on your own site and link it.
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tommorris we've done that for a few other topics on the IWC wiki
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alanpearce True, that.
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acegiak tommorris++
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butter _why had a good post about "why would you want that?" and "that sucks"
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Loqi tommorris has 52 karma
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butter ie, why not just stay positive, mention +sides of both
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tommorris I'm not a big fan of either patterns or antipatterns, nor am I a big fan of "considered harmful" essays. :)
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tommorris see http://meyerweb.com/eric/comment/chech.html :)
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KartikPrabhu butter: because documenting negative aspects is important
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alanpearce "considered harmful" essays considered harmful :)
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tommorris alanpearce: eric meyer is one step ahead of you. see http://meyerweb.com/eric/comment/chech.html
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alanpearce Yeah, I remembered it from somewhere, I guess
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KartikPrabhu these negative aspects might be obvious to people who deal with them regularly, for beginners even a subjective POV on this helps (speaking from personal experience)
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tommorris I think if we're to be a positive community, to make sure our rhetoric doesn't distract from the overall goal of encouraging people to build stuff.
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KartikPrabhu tommorris: agreed. But that page has been there for a long long time and no one changed it until yesterday.
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butter acegiak: http://www.reddit.com/r/webdev+semanticweb/new/.rss
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tantek KartikPrabhu: oh we've discussed it repeatedly at HWC meetups in SF
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tantek and I documented it there as I saw a bunch of problems happening with database-backed indie web sites and didn't see *any* collection of such problems
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KartikPrabhu tantek: I know it has been discussed extensively. but no one changed it. and that's what matters to outsider viewers
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tantek problems that happened in *databases* not filesystems
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tantek the "filesystem is a database" misses the specific points made in the article
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KartikPrabhu tantek: of course. not saying you were wrong to write that.
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tantek KartikPrabhu: I collected a pattern of data points
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tantek that's the part I think people are missing. or rather they're overreacting to.
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KartikPrabhu agreed
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tantek it's not an opinion piece. every problem documented is substantiated.
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butter mysql.sock not found
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tantek that's the issue. I dared to challenge one of the dogmas (cargo cults) in web dev.
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tommorris I put the "but isn't a filesystem a sort of database" in the FAQ yesterday for that reason
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tantek so of course people blew up on Twitter.
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butter oh, ORACLE forked/bought your db, devs raged, forked a community verison which won't eat your conf files that are a 0.0.1 behind so the server didn't start?
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tantek tommorris: I don't think the emo-tweeters are bothering to read that far.
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butter what's the slowverhead of using in-browser Filesystem-access feautres
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petermolnar MySQL is not a bad db; the MyISAM engine was, InnoDB is way ahead; also keep in mind that MySQL is for speed, not for exceptional stability, like Oracle
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tommorris Yep. Other people's lack of reading comprehension ceased to be my problem a long time ago. ;)
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butter having to plumb it all thru JS, browser security-layers , down into the OS
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petermolnar and don't forget that MySQL has different engines, not just one
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petermolnar in theory, we could write a flat-file engine for MySQL
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KartikPrabhu petermolnar: we could? as in store the actual data in files?
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alanpearce It already has one: https://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.1/en/csv-storage-engine.html
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butter are there any SPARQL stores that automagically maintain .ttl files on a per-resource basis
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tantek I kinda thought all the database zealots had given up after the whole NoSQL switch
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tommorris petermolnar: https://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.0/en/blackhole-storage-engine.html is my favourite
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petermolnar the blackhole is for replication :)
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butter clean-cut, stdlib functions in a scripting-lang are less fragile than sprintf()-ing SQL as well
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tommorris "The Blackhole engine is a no-op engine. Any operations performed on a table using Blackhole will have no effect. This should be born in mind when considering the behavior of primary key columns that auto increment." is possibly the greatest documentation anyone has ever written.
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KartikPrabhu this whole war is strange to me, given the popularity of file-based "databases" like MongoDB
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alanpearce That's document-based, which is different
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tommorris KartikPrabhu: no, the really strange thing is how many people seem to use Jekyll and other static site generator tools
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KartikPrabhu tommorris: also that :)
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KartikPrabhu alanpearce: oh. I think I don't understand the difference then
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petermolnar tommorris: the blackhole will not write anything locally but it will send the replication down, so the slaves can store the data; thus you can offload write to a slave, for example, for an archive table
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butter so /dev/null should be reimplemented anywhere that has IO and can't take a file-handle?
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tommorris petermolnar: yep, I understand why it's there, I just like the tone the documentation is written in. Kinda Onion-like.
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petermolnar :D
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alanpearce KartikPrabhu: yeah, the wording is a bit ambiguous. It's more like an 'object store': attributes and child objects are stored, but it's all binary JSON or similar.
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KartikPrabhu alanpearce: so the diff. is in being a human-readable file format?
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butter why no database? https://indico.uknof.org.uk/getFile.py/access?contribId=20&resId=1&materialId=slides&confId=31#page=8
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petermolnar actually, that CSV engine might have a place on the wiki for those who are afraid of the binary format ( including me )
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KartikPrabhu petermolnar: of course, add any documentation you find to the wiki
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alanpearce KartikPrabhu: I *think* mongo stores a database as a file as other database systems do, which is the major distinction for me.
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KartikPrabhu oh so the whole db is one file. I found out today that SQLite does that too
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butter have heard plenty of mongo corruption/fubar issues
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KartikPrabhu butter: yes. migrating/moving DBs can be a nightmare (as I found out first hand once)
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butter so far http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern a good read, HTML-specific suggestion might be better expanded to mention .json, .yaml, .ttl etc
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KartikPrabhu butter: usually we wait until someone here has actually implemented something. So if someone is using a json/yaml based storage then sure
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butter i use a JSON format with absolute-URIs for field-names, to sidestep slow prefix-expansion or needing some huge format like JSON-LD to do that. http://mw.logbook.am/address/t/tbray@textuality.com/tbray.e for example
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kartikprabhu.com edited /MySQL (-68) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ added software name" (view diff)
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butter the server wouldnt ever return that to you unless Accept: application/json was in your header. it's just for internal speed
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KartikPrabhu butter: feel free to make a project page and add such details to it. For instance mine is here: https://indiewebcamp.com/Bundle
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KartikPrabhu judas priest! it is almost morning here... off to sleep
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@owzim @edokoa the @hoodiehq project is a good example, or @aral's indieweb/inditech ... where design is an integral part. (twitter.com/_/status/513262649912872960)
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@aral @owzim Thanks, Christian :) Just to clarify, indieweb & indie tech are related but different. I only speak for indie tech +@edokoa @hoodiehq (twitter.com/_/status/513262908751740928)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512837875126136832 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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@IndieGameGuys RT aral: owzim Thanks, Christian :) Just to clarify, indieweb & indie tech are related but different. I only speak for indie tech +edokoa... (twitter.com/_/status/513263339062181888)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/aaronpk/513012939377217538/513019012360699904 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=database-antipattern&action=historysubmit&diff=13413&oldid=13272 (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512837875126136832 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/aaronpk/513012939377217538/513019012360699904 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=database-antipattern&action=historysubmit&diff=13413&oldid=13272 (webmention)
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@hibnico RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/513286721484898304)
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@aral @ronaldx Writing up a short FAQ at the moment. Basically, that was about confusing us with indieweb and saying we worked at Google, FB, etc. (twitter.com/_/status/513287412009930752)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512837875126136832 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/aaronpk/513012939377217538/513019012360699904 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=database-antipattern&action=historysubmit&diff=13413&oldid=13272 (webmention)
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@dalguete Esto me llamo la atención... http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/513300751570202625)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512837875126136832 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/aaronpk/513012939377217538/513019012360699904 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=database-antipattern&action=historysubmit&diff=13413&oldid=13272 (webmention)
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@ViIvanov Database anti-pattern http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/513321396718825472)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512837875126136832 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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@robtreat2 RT @papa_fire: This has got to be an elaborate trolling, otherwise all is lost for this industry http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/513323992196071429)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/aaronpk/513012939377217538/513019012360699904 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=database-antipattern&action=historysubmit&diff=13413&oldid=13272 (webmention)
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rascul.io edited /static_site_generator (+96) "Add examples section and add myself to it" (view diff)
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@laprice @robtreat2 @papa_fire indiewebcamp is all about artisanal handmade websites. So doing without a db is sort of paleo-CMS #portlandia (twitter.com/_/status/513331087091957760)
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Haxxa Is Logi a spam bot?
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Loqi Haxxa: finalcut left you a message 1 day ago: - you might not have url rewriting turned on in apache if you are getting a page not found error with the begin page. I was just able to recreate it by removing url rewriting
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rascul not a spam bot but sometimes when there's a lot going on at #indieweb or on the wiki and little talking, it can look like it
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Haxxa hmmm... whats your take on the indieweb rascul - what is your site based off? known - wordpress?
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rascul i'm making a static site generator
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rascul it's not very special yet but eventually it will be :)
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petermolnar WordPress users, look what I've found: https://wordpress.org/plugins/export-to-text/
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petermolnar it's actually doing a nice job, though ending up with a massive file which need to be splitted
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danlyke
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512837875126136832 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/aaronpk/513012939377217538/513019012360699904 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=database-antipattern&action=historysubmit&diff=13413&oldid=13272 (webmention)
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@ehashd RT @shanley: WHERE SHALL YOU STAND ON THE GREAT INDIEWEB DEBATE OF 2014: a.) database b.) no database c.) FUCKED EITHER WAY (twitter.com/_/status/513341097926348801)
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@mfila RT @DBWeekly: The Database as an Anti-Pattern? http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/513347018040020992)
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tommorris This is great reading. https://www.facebook.com/yeastradio/posts/10154584093485463
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jonnybarnes tommorris: facebook will require people to verify their identity?
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tommorris jonnybarnes: they've started going after drag queens whose FB accounts are under their stage names
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jonnybarnes tommorris: I mean no disrespect when I ask this, but is there any proof they are?
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tommorris http://techcrunch.com/2014/09/15/why-facebook-is-deleting-drag-queen-profile-pages/ - it's being widely reported
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pdurbin your facebook account as your identity. frightening. dreadful.
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tommorris Madge's post nails it though
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bret caught up on the logs. butter had me loling, do you have a website?
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tommorris "Host your own content. Don't let these silicon valley douchebags con you into giving your personal property to them to do with it as they please. If you want to post things on Youtube, Soundcloud, etc. Fine. But you should also host it on your own hosting account somewhere using a wordpress blog or whatever. Also, keep copies of everything in your physical
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tommorris possession as well."
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tommorris "The Internet Archive is also a safe place to store media long term. I have been posting media on line since 1997 when I had a live Real Audio stream of Yeast Radio. The only place that hasn't deleted some or all of my content during that time is Internet Archive."
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tommorris "Silicon Valley doesn't give a fuck about you or your content or your rights."
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bret tommorris oh yeah someone was asking someone in here on twitter if indiweb could help drag queens or something
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tommorris Yep. IndieWeb is for everyone. :)
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neuro` Good evening
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bret well yeah it can help everyone as much as self hosting can
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tommorris Facebook's attack on drag queens and other performers who don't use their real name is documented here: http://indiewebcamp.com/facebook#Real_Name_demands
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pdurbin tommorris: "While not as bad as Google+" ... google has shifted a bit recently about real names
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tommorris Yep, due to massive backlash. :)
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tommorris Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nymwars :)
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@jorabin Indie Tech is not IndieWeb by @aral https://aralbalkan.com/notes/what-is-the-ind.ie-manifesto/ (twitter.com/_/status/513360375975514112)
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@tommorris @aral Thanks for making clear the indietech/indieweb distinction somewhere on the web with a permalink. :) (twitter.com/_/status/513360885080129536)
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tantek that's a good blog post
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Mark87 this aral fellow is clever. Engage in a very public spectacle over your project, save face, and watch curious traffic pour into your project
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@fdevillamil Indie Tech, the Independent Technology initiative is not the #IndieWeb. Thank you @aral for making this clear. https://aralbalkan.com/notes/what-is-the-ind.ie-manifesto/ (twitter.com/_/status/513366311943282689)
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tommorris Mark87: aral is a participant in IndieWebCamp and we try to get along. :)
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neuro` tommorris: I'm glad he published this.
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neuro` Maybe a little too late, but this is good.
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tantek neuro` so many blog posts to publish. I can understand anything that takes a while.
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tantek and what tommorris said. Aral participated in IndieWebCampUK and helped a few folks improve their SSL support a few weeks ago.
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tantek he too has his heart "in the right place" and "doing what [he's] doing for the right reasons."
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tantek.com edited /database-antipattern (+4) "/* Fragile */ link Postgres" (view diff)
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kylewm kinda proud of this... got my software running on heroku http://boiling-plateau-1247.herokuapp.com/
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tantek.com edited /database-antipattern (+123) "/* PaaS Compatibility */ trapped files are bad too" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /database-antipattern (+468) "/* Database with export */ answer" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /database-antipattern (+417) "/* Isn't flat-files a form of database? */ why two "databases" when one will suffice?" (view diff)
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tantek kylewm - neat!
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tantek meanwhile I just read through the Q&A again of database-antipattern and tried to provide some more reasoned answers
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bret Lets see if I can get twitter posse working today
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KevinMarks__ Google+ no longer requires "real names" but some old error messages persist: https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/512802343402758145
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@kevinmarks @yonatanzunger so why are you still suspending @catvalente? (twitter.com/_/status/512802343402758145)
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kylewm I need some heuristic for figuring out when a p-name is nonsense
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bret string url-encoding responses is actually kind of a pain in the neck :/
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bret is this a valid form string? syndicate-to%5B%5D=twitter.com%2Fbretolius&syndicate-to%5B%5D=notfacebok.com'
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bret ack
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@ap1978 Fiddling with the #indieweb stuff. #notadeveloper (twitter.com/_/status/513398684344934401)
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bret is there one too many "syndicate-to" key names in this string or is that a thing? syndicate-to=syndicate-to=twitter.com%2Faaronpk%2Cfacebook.com%2Faaronpk
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@dangillmor Want to understand IndieWeb better? See this (no sound) animation: https://www.youtube.com/ (twitter.com/_/status/513408596395044864)
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kylewm bret: i made a little demo app with two syndicate-to checkboxes http://60e1e926.ngrok.com/
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bear kylewm - agree about ngrok - an amazing tool
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bret nice kylewm
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kylewm and it definitely does syndicate-to=twitter.com&syndicate-to=facebook.com
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bret right
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bret kylewm++
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Loqi kylewm has 52 karma
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kylewm micropub currently expects syndicate-to=twitter.com,facebook.com ?
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kylewm aw gee
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bret yup
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kylewm i'm not actually sure what the spec says
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bret is this some kind of shorthand? https://github.com/aaronpk/Quill/blob/master/views/docs.php#L49
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kylewm looks like a copy/paste error
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kylewm I didn't realize you were quoting the documentation
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kylewm sorry bret, i think i am just catching up to where you were 20 minutes ago
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bret hehe
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kylewm ok yeah, syndicate-to=twitter.com%2Fkyle_wm%2Cfacebook.com%2Fkyle.mahan is what worked for me
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kylewm python doesn't try to be as clever with list parameters, it just converts them to a string
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bear yea, nodejs parsers get fancy with that
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bear lunches
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KevinMarks_ Multiple parameters with the same name turn into an array in python
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tantek good afternoon #indiewebcamp!@
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tantek catches up on logs
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tantek kylewm what do you mean "when a p-name is nonsense"? can you provide an example URL?
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bear to be pendantic, urlparse.urlparse() that returns a tuple with the query as a string, it's urlparse.parse_qs() that returns a dictionary and yes, multiple items with the same name are returned as a list
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tantek hey KevinMarks - how's the heat today? ;)
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@mastgirl62 .Via @dangillmor: Want to understand IndieWeb better? See this (no sound) animation: https://www.youtube.com/ #ALC201 #connectprotect (twitter.com/_/status/513431483160068096)
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tantek.com edited /Posts_about_the_IndieWeb (+2) "outdent a bit" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /videos_about_the_IndieWeb (+39) "r" (view diff)
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kylewm tantek: sure, here's an example of a bad p-name http://werd.io/2014/egg-brooklyn
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kylewm context of the parameter discussion is we were wondering if micropub should be using multiple entries for the same key instead of comma separated values
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tantek.com edited /videos_about_the_indieweb (+162) "add short featured videos at top including graphic animation explanation, user templates" (view diff)
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tantek kylewm - whoa - JS in that p-name! https://kylewm.com/reply/2014/09/20/1/sorry-to-break-it-to-you-that-is
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tantek this shows some errors in the original IMO: http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http://werd.io/2014/egg-brooklyn
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tantek like why is "Egg, Brooklyn" a 'photo'? That should likely be a p-name (I bet that's a typo/bug in the Known code)
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@BenPourquoi RT @dangillmor: Want to understand IndieWeb better? See this (no sound) animation: https://www.youtube.com/ (twitter.com/_/status/513435740177719296)
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tantek Kylewm - simple/dumb heuristic for "bad" p-name detection
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tantek if (content && (strlen(name) >= strlen(content)) { /* ignore name property, likely same as content or includes of content and UI beyond it */ }
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kylewm ha that will totally work
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kylewm tantek++ thanks!
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Loqi tantek has 80 karma
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KevinMarks_ Multiple entries is in the form/cgi spec, but need to check language support
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tantek also the indiewebify post validator could test for that and give you a warning! http://indiewebify.me/validate-h-entry/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwerd.io%2F2014%2Fegg-brooklyn
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tantek kylewm - where should I capture that heuristic on the wiki?
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tantek I mean, you're using it for reply-context, so should I put it there? or is it something that is more generally applicable - other use-cases?
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kylewm tantek: maybe http://indiewebcamp.com/reply-context#original_content
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kylewm oh sorry that's what you said. that's where I would have looked
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kylewm voxpelli was having a similar problem with comments on webmention.herokuapp.com though
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kylewm bridgy was giving slightly different name and content
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kylewm but I guess normally you would not show the "title" of s comment
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Loqi [mention] http://tedcurran.net/2014/09/20/posse-blog-center-digital-life/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (pingback)
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tantek kylewm - also filed as a feature request for indiewebify: https://github.com/indieweb/indiewebify-me/issues/30
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tantek the more of this kind of thing we can push upstream into the validator(s), the greater the chance that publishers will catch it and fix it
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tantek.com created /Template:benwerd (+109) "create because I'm using it" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Template:benwerd (+20) "use icon he uses on werd.io" (view diff)
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@rebeccagates RT @dangillmor: Want to understand IndieWeb better? See this (no sound) animation: https://www.youtube.com/ (twitter.com/_/status/513440202137018368)
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tantek.com edited /videos_about_the_indieweb (-117) "more user template usage" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /manifesto (+326) "clarify no manifesto, add section header other manifestos, add Independents Day Manifesto as original art, note in summary no indieweb(camp) manifesto" (view diff)
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tantek what is a manifesto?
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Loqi A manifesto is "a published verbal declaration of the intentions, motives, or views of the issuer, be it an individual, group, political party or government" according to Wikipedia[1] - in summary there is no IndieWeb(Camp) manifesto http://indiewebcamp.com/manifesto
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tantek what is the indieweb manifesto?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "the indieweb manifesto" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=the+indieweb+manifesto
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tantek.com created /the_indieweb_manifesto (+23) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /the_indiewebcamp_manifesto (+23) "r" (view diff)
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tantek what is the indiewebcamp manifesto?
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Loqi A manifesto is "a published verbal declaration of the intentions, motives, or views of the issuer, be it an individual, group, political party or government" according to Wikipedia[1] - in summary there is no IndieWeb(Camp) manifesto http://indiewebcamp.com/the_indiewebcamp_manifesto
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tantek maybe that will help a bit too
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tantek who here uses a package manager for the software on their indieweb site? I know barnabywalters uses Composer.
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tantek live video stream discussing package managers now at http://edgeconf.com/2014-sf
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kylewm raises hand, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pip_%28package_manager%29
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tantek what is Pip?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Pip" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Pip
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KartikPrabhu what is pip?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "pip" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=pip
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KartikPrabhu oh boo
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bear semver FTW
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tantek what is semver?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "semver" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=semver
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tantek is watching the video stream
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bear I am now also
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bear I do love the method that Rust is using
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tantek what is Rust?
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bear and would kill if pip and npm would move to that
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Rust" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Rust
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tantek what is npm?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "npm" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=npm
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kylewm nothing is worse than Maven
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kylewm (Java)
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bear oh totes agree
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tantek then I won't ask Loqi about it ;)
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Loqi who, me?
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bear looks like github is going to try and social engineer better behaviour for docs and versioning
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tantek still can't believe the line-noise gibberish that people are putting up with in markdown
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bear oh oops - that was an NPM dude
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tantek yeah most of this has been about NPM
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binbasti bear: yes, was just going to ask you :)
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binbasti tantek: line-noise gibberish?
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tantek binbasti: http://tantek.com/w/Markdown
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tantek goes to add a findable reference to line-noise
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binbasti thx
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binbasti don't tell twitter about that page tho :)
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tantek bibbasti - I've got lots of such pages :)
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tantek s/bibbasti/binbasti
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Loqi tantek meant to say: binbasti - I've got lots of such pages :)
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tantek binbasti - page edited with a couple of references to line-noise :)
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bret tantek I use ruby gems and npm
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tantek what is a ruby gem?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "ruby gem" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=ruby+gem
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bear I'll have to catch the recording of that
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bear \o/ looks like I have finally gotten Known installed properly for Leo
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tantek let's see those wiki stub pages people! if you use an acronym / jargon word/phrase - please add a short stub to it! It's easy: http://indiewebcamp.com/start_a_page
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bear already working on semver and npm
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tantek bear++ ! :)
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Loqi bear has 28 karma
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binbasti i tend to agree when it comes to the inline link format, but that's nice to write. discourse does a great job of taking it as input, but transforming it to the more readable page bottom notation
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binbasti i'd disagree with backticks (total unix) and headers
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bret.io created /gem (+166) "Created page with "{{ stub }} <dfn>Gem is the ruby language package manager.</dfn> It can be used to managed ruby packages and provide access the the packages at https://rubygems.org."" (view diff)
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binbasti although your improved headline format already works
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tantek binbasti - did you see this about the inline link format? https://twitter.com/mirell/status/512365234623758336
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@mirell Only so many times you can forget how the fuck to do a link before you just use raw HTML (twitter.com/_/status/512365234623758336)
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binbasti tantek: that only depends on what you've written more in your life
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binbasti i'd say normal end users have not written enough html for it to be more comfortable
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binbasti muscle memory is a bitch :)
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kylewm the wires get crossed for me that html has the URL first and markdown has it second
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kylewm so i often switch them when writing markdown
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tantek the thing about HTML is that it has quite minimal use of punctuation: <..> and <../> to start with, then other parts are readable letters - tag and attribute names
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tantek I think that's the key - minimal punctuation that you have to commit to memory, and then use of text (which is easier to recall than random series of punctuation)
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tantek kylewm - MediaWiki also has URL first: [URL linktext]
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bear.im created /semver (+216) "semver stub" (view diff)
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bret.io created /npm (+240) "Created page with "{{ stub }} <dfn>npm is the "node package manager" and is can be used to manage javascript package for any type of javascript project (not just node).</dfn> It provides quick ac..."" (view diff)
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binbasti i think when you're writing it all day, typing less matters more to many people, which is why markdown and textile were invented in the first place
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tantek and I greatly prefer that because it uses only TWO punctuation characters [ ] as opposed to Markdown ()[]
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kylewm []() ;)
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bret Three, count the space :)
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tantek bret - four [ ] ( )
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tantek binbasti: agreed about typing less
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bret yeah its funky
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binbasti i guess it's more of a personal preference thing in the end, and you can find enough arguments for both
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binbasti althugh obviously it would've been nice to fix some things in md before it was so popular :)
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tantek binbasti: to be clear - I'm actually not arguing for HTML instead of Markdown
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binbasti like the bold and em
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bret tantek have you peeked the common mark proposed changes at all? they want to default auto linking bare URLs
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tantek I'm arguing for *less* punctuation than even Markdown uses
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binbasti tantek: ah, came across that way a bit
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tantek bret - yes - common mark cleans up some things but does not go far enough
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tantek though I suppose it was meant to be convergence, not a fork
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bret right
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bear.im edited /semver (+12) "typo fix" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu tantek: you should start your own fork of Markdown
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tantek binbasti - the beauty is that for your own website/editing setup - you don't have to worry about "before it was so popular"
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binbasti that's true
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KartikPrabhu that is true if you want to write a parser yourself
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binbasti but i'm using md in too many places to do it different in one
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KartikPrabhu and that ^
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tantek KartikPrabhu: I have: http://tantek.com/w/Markdown#BeforeandAfter
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: just the person I wanted to talk to ;) do you have any briliant ideas for a better name for mf2util?
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tantek binbasti - I'm using my "fork" of markdown for all /notes that I post
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: why better name? mf2util says exactly what it does no?
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bear.im created /pip (+119) "pip stub" (view diff)
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tantek it's not so much a fork of markdown as it is just plain text run through an auto-linker/auto-embedder
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tantek re: using HTML instead of Markdown, there's this: https://twitter.com/shanley/status/512364419578216448
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@shanley .@daringfireball also i have personally migrated many sites from markdown to html. think of html as like extreme markdown (twitter.com/_/status/512364419578216448)
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: oh do you think it's ok? i guess it seems a little broad and generic to me; when it's more of a h-entry-interpreter
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KartikPrabhu aah I see
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bret tantek don't you just love href linking an image in md? ;)
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KartikPrabhu true. kylewm what is your naming theme?
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tantek bret I don't even know how to do that
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bret [![alttext](urltoimage)](hrefurl)
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tantek I like MediaWiki for that: [hrefurl urltoimage]
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bear my pain is image href for sure
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bret usually it breaks your text editor highlighter too!
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tantek you just put the urltoimage where you would otherwise have the linktext
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bear yea, but you really need altext for images for accessibility
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tantek or your write your content so alt="" is ok
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: crud do I need a theme? maybe noir fiction
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tantek if you author content well, you don't need alt
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kylewm mf2samspade
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bret [url href alt] (any order) would best?
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bear alt="" is never ok for accessiblity IMO
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tantek bear - not true - duplicating text is bad for accessibility
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tantek e.g. (icon) name - the icon does not need any alt text e.g. alt="name"
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tantek because name name is bad
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bret I though alt was "describe this image to a blind person"
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bret not necessarily in practice
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tantek bret - that's a misconception
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tantek alt is not a *description*
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tantek it's supposed to be a literal textual replacement
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tantek it's rendered when the image doesn't load for example
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bear but it is often used as a description for screen readers
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KartikPrabhu alt = text equivalent. and is annoying to write
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bret how do you have a literal textual replacement for an artistic image? alt="art"?
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tantek bear - that's a poorly written alt then
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KartikPrabhu "photo with mountains ins the back, behind a lake with birds flying in th sky" yeah right
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kylewm how's alt="Shane Becker's circular (Andy Warhol painting-esque) avatar"
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bear i'm going to have to chew on this different tantek is suggesting
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kylewm (that's from iamshane.com)
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bear s/different/difference/
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Loqi bear meant to say: i'm going to have to chew on this difference tantek is suggesting
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tantek has spent far too much time listening to and asking questions of accessibility experts about this stuff in the W3C HTMLWG.
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bret i'm just trying to understand, I believe you :)
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tantek and yes, I went through the "write a descripton in alt" school of thought as well.
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: I am drawing a blank on nams atm
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bear i haven't spent time in the W3C trenches, just battling bad devs who do zero accessibility coding
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bret tantek do
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tantek It works much better when you check out what the alt text would read like next to other text
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: I'll stick with util for now
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bret oops
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: yeah util isfine. you cna then add other mf2 interpretations in it
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tantek here is a good reference: https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/embedded-content.html#alt
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tantek what is alt?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "alt" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=alt
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tantek ok I'll take that
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tantek.com created /alt (+387) "stub with dfn, ref to whatwg living html spec for advice on good alt text" (view diff)
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tantek bear I agree with images on alts
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tantek the more I've thought about alt text on images the more it's seemed like almost parenthetical text about an image
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bear i've tried to view it as a way to tie the caption to the link - but haven't settled on that
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tantek bear, this is my current thinking for at least "block" images: http://tantek.com/w/Markdown#Alttextforimages
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bear my take on that is not the suggestion but how you have the different items on each their own line
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bear but everything I think of makes a worse version of what markdown has :/
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tantek bear yes that's for readability (each their own line)
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bear nods
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tantek also it makes logical sense to have a caption for an image right below it in plain text
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tantek thus the parenthetical caption (easy to remember, reusing parenthetical semantic) makes sense as alt
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bear yes, that does make the text read cleaner
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bear but my data parsing brain just flinches at multiple line items being grouped by relation to each other without having specific markers :)
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tantek bear, mine might flinch too once I write the code to parse that
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bear LOL
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tantek however so far I've gotten pretty far with CASSIS auto_link :)
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bear cassis++
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Loqi cassis has 1 karma
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tantek bear, the thinking was to first design what would "make sense" and look reasonable in *plain text* and then see if it was something consistently parsabel
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tantek s/parsabel/parseable
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Loqi tantek meant to say: bear, the thinking was to first design what would "make sense" and look reasonable in *plain text* and then see if it was something consistently parseable
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bear oh agree completely - optimize for the part that you, the user, will be interacting with the most
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bear and push the work onto the html converter
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tantek bear - what's sad is that I think the crappy (line-noise) parts of markdown were design with parsing considerations first, and plain text considerations second.
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bear oh totally
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bear and that is why I completely agree with the almost-html version of text
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KartikPrabhu tantek: acording to Gruber markdown was designed to be readable plain-text and not for parsing! <finding reference>
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tantek KartikPrabhu: yeah I cited it at the top of my page: tantek.com/w/Markdown
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KartikPrabhu https://twitter.com/gruber/status/507669745496522752 thanks FF autp complete
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@gruber @sebbean @marcoarment Making Markdown easy to parse or implement was never a design goal. Design goals: (1) readability and (2) writeability (twitter.com/_/status/507669745496522752)
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tantek that's my point - Markdown quickly violates its design goals
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bear maybe that was for v1 but with later iterations that baby was tossed out the window
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KartikPrabhu but then Gruber complains about others violating it too
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tantek exactly
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tantek so my goal is to make a more markdown markdown than markdown ;)
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KartikPrabhu also tried pandoc. it needs me to write a YAML meta-data file to go with the markdown content file ... sheesh
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KartikPrabhu now contemplating using HTML+mf2 which parses to Latex directly, but might be hard
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tantek lol - separate metadata files. hilarious.
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butter KartikPrabhu: bundle is also the ruby's meta-pkg-installer binary
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butter debian /usr/bin/node is still ax25 related last i checked so naive scripts thinking it'll be node-js are broken
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KartikPrabhu butter: I don't think there is a confusion there. Having unique project names across platforms is impossible
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tantek welcome back butter!
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tantek what's your personal site?
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butter i agree with 95% of your wikipages, great decentralized/personal-sovereignty ethos, but the structured-data stuff as microformats? i'd take RDFa or microdata+Schema.org over that
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tantek butter - why? do you like typing more than you need to? (RDFa microdata) and do you like trusting big companies with overdesigned data models? (schema)
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KartikPrabhu enter mandatory Volcano fax number reference
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tantek lol
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KartikPrabhu for the record: https://schema.org/Volcano
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KartikPrabhu butter: do you know of anyone (non-corporation) who parses/uses published RDFa or microdata to do anything?
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butter i prefer metadata in formats designed for it rather than messily embedded in HTML
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tantek exactly, why put extra effort or be biased towards just catering towards Google/MS/etc.
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butter not really a fan of RDFa either, but at least property-names are 3rd-party/decentralized-extensible not decided upon by a couple google/yandex employees
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KartikPrabhu same for mf2
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KartikPrabhu butter: HTML classes are metadata anyway
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butter KartikPrabhu: most tools i use consumer Turtle, which has RDF inside. for a basic 'finder'/directory-browser https://github.com/deiu/warp , and so on
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KartikPrabhu and why is inserting classes messier than inserting "property" ?
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KartikPrabhu butter: I meant people not tools
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butter turtle is vastly more humanreadable than rdfa/microdata/mf inside html
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butter plus these turtle-consuming tools are integrating with a global URI-based take on classic UNIX permisssions, the webACL stuff
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KartikPrabhu if your goal is to cater to code then go ahead use RDFa... whatever fits your needs
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KartikPrabhu for what is that needed/useful?
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tantek KartikPrabhu: I've yet to see a use-case where RDFa provides any advantages over microformats2
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KartikPrabhu tantek: on a human use-case I agree. the classic counter example is for "machines" to "understand" them or something
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KartikPrabhu but I don't much care for that
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binbasti elf-pavlik gave you one just 2 days ago or so. specifying measurement units. a string like "10m" is not going to cut it
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KartikPrabhu butter: do you publish RDFa/microdata on your site? Does anyone consume them to do useful/interesting things?
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tantek KartikPrabhu: machines understanding something is not a use-case
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binbasti for machines
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binbasti tantek: are you the guardian of use cases? :)
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tantek 10m = 10 meters right? ;)
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KartikPrabhu binbasti: I already gave a solution to that
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binbasti tantek: or is it 10 minutes?
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tantek binbasti - no, use-cases are focused on *users* (humans), not machiens
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tantek binbasti: touché!
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binbasti yes, but the machine might act on behalf of the user
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tantek binbasti - that's called implementation
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binbasti it should
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binbasti k
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tantek if the machine is acting on behalf of the user - the user doing *what* <-- that's the use-case
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butter much like SQL-engine is an added burden, so is having to provide a UI. there's 3rd-party angularJS experts writing turtle-consuming apps for that, http://linkeddata.github.io/warp/#/list/http/m.whats-your.name/address/p/public-webpayments@w3.org/2014/09/
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tantek not what the machine is doing
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binbasti tantek: it's not always a direct relationship
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tantek lol angular single-page-sites
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tantek lol /#/ URLs
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tantek so many antipatterns to document, so little time
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binbasti what? history api. no /#/ needed
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binbasti ember dev myself though
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binbasti :)
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tantek the funnything about all this single-page-site development fad is that once it's long over, it will be difficult to research/understand what the heck happened, because none of the single-page-site apps will have any resilient permalinks to view in the future.
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tantek it will be a sort-of blackhole period of JS development
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tantek from the view of the future
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bear yea, Internet Archive will be the only way
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KartikPrabhu butter: consuming to do what?
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tantek bear - Internet Archive won't be able to archive them - per lack of resilient permalinks
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KartikPrabhu there are mf2 parsers that "consume" mf2 also :)
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tantek and a single-page-site disconnected from its backend won't function, just a bunch of clientside JS errors
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bear it will archive the cached page of any link that can be discovered - no?
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tantek Internet Archive doesn't archive backends
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tantek bear - they don't have any links besides the home page! that's the problem!
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KartikPrabhu bear: does it run javascript? else it will get a blank page anyway
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bear ohh
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bear stops trying to code, follow a video and IRC at the same time
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tantek sure it runs JS, but then those single-page-side JS will try to XHR access their server to load the actual content and then blam FAIL
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KartikPrabhu that is my issue with Feedly (my feed reader) rigt now
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KartikPrabhu tantek: oh yeah
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tantek seriously - how is this not totally obvious to all web devs?
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bear archiving is rarely a concern with most web devs I have found
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KartikPrabhu because JS is the best!
wolftune joined the channel
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bear hell, they don't even worry about breaking old url's
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KartikPrabhu write apps to sell on iOS/Android who cares about this web thing anymore
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bear "why worry about that, we are a SPA, just go to the home page!"
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KartikPrabhu is <sarcasm> a web-component yet? I suggest Comic Sans as default font for it
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KartikPrabhu bear: re: absolute URLs in indie-stats, add a url="base domain name URL" as a kwarg to the Parser here, https://github.com/bear/indie-stats/blob/master/gather_domains.py#L32
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KartikPrabhu all URLs will get normalised to that
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bear oh - so I should add the url i'm calling to that?
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bear err the url I'm making a GET request to gather the HTML to the call to Parser()
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KartikPrabhu yeah. the Parser does not know the base URL (It looks for a <base> element but that does not exist in any production HTML files mostly)
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KartikPrabhu bear: see this line in Parser code, https://github.com/kartikprabhu/mf2py/blob/master/mf2py/parser.py#L55 which should be on the pip one too
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bear k
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KartikPrabhu let me know if that doesn't work
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bear i'm almost done with the refactoring to make everything stored as json blobs
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bear so I will be testing that soon
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bear and then I'm going to auto-generate some index.html and stick it on http://indie-stats.com
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KartikPrabhu bear: also since the parser uses url.join , you don't need to bother with getting just the domain part of the URL
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bear i'm doing that for my own use
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KartikPrabhu alright then :)
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bear because I want that as the key things even before I parse for mf2
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bear wow - english is hard
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KartikPrabhu but that won't include the http:// stuff would it?
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bear s/key/key for/
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bear no - just the netloc
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KartikPrabhu yeah. so just pass the full URL to which you make the GET request. That will have the full thingie with http:// and stuff
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bear k
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bear hmm, I need to record the url that is the result of any redirects
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bear not the one that I do the GET for
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KartikPrabhu oh hmm yeah possibly. I have been meaning to add the redirects thing to my webmention endpoint too
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bear I thought ronkyuu took care of that
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KartikPrabhu oh! must check then
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KartikPrabhu and add it to mf2py when it is given just a URL
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bear if it doesn't please file a bug because I sure wanted it to do that
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KartikPrabhu yeah will do
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bear.im edited /indie-stats (+371) "update with json structure changes" (view diff)
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bear.im edited /indie-stats (+24) (view diff)
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bear.im edited /indie-stats (-1) (view diff)