#indiewebcamp 2014-09-21

2014-09-21 UTC
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KartikPrabhu bear: I do see that you are not using the http->https redirect for my site.
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bear yea, that is what i'm fixing now
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bear the gather code is rather simple - adding code to get the redirect chain
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bear I was just assuming the url passed into the code via the seeding step was valid
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bear but now i'm going to make a HEAD request and only store it if it's a 200 and then store the response.url
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KartikPrabhu so no redirects?
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bear no response.url should be the last of the redirects
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KartikPrabhu aah ok cool
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bear well, once I add allow_redirects=True
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bear that is
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KartikPrabhu beautifully written article on web-components: http://soledadpenades.com/2014/09/19/extensible-web-summit-berlin-2014-my-lightning-talk-on-web-components/
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KartikPrabhu excerpts: "Then if they try to understand, they go to mailing lists and they see those fights and all the politics and… they step back, or disappear for good."
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KartikPrabhu "Perhaps we need to discuss more about use cases and patterns for writing modular components and extending them."
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bear nice article
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bear ok, domain gathering now follows redirects
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bear.im edited /indie-stats (+0) "refreshed data which changed timestamp" (view diff)
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bear copies fresh data to site
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tantek.com edited /indie-stats (+32) "see also analytics" (view diff)
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bear the next thing I need to add is a "domain edit" feature
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tantek.com edited /indie (+81) "*-config, *-stats" (view diff)
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bear so anyone with indieauth can update the domain data
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tantek.com edited /indie (-24) "/* Prefix */ found indie-contacts link/session" (view diff)
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bear tantek - I registered indie-stats.com indie-stats.org and indiestats.com
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tantek neat. with indiestats.com - why any need for the others?
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bear doh
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bear indiestats.com was not available
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bear fingers
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bear so I registered indiestats.org
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tantek sounds good
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bear I thought indie-stats.com sounded better
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bear i'm hoping that someone else in the community has indiestats.com
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tantek meh - I always thought hyphens in domain names made them look less legit
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bear we have a year to figure it out ;)
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pdurbin experts-exchange.com
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bear pdurbin++
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Loqi pdurbin has 2 karma
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tantek was than an example or counter-example?
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pdurbin probably didn't want "sexchange" in the middle
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bear an example of why - is so helpful
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KartikPrabhu on JS web-apps: http://aaron-gustafson.com/notebook/2014/a-fundamental-disconnect/ via adactio
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tantek aha - yeah, dumb internet filters
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bear goes to find some food before talking a non-trivial web edit page
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tantek pdurbin - that may be the funniest nerdy thing I've seen all day - "reasons to include a hyphen in your domain name: if you have a name like experts-exchange.com"
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tantek pdurbin++
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bear and for me - anything with more than two text fields is non-trivial ;)
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Loqi pdurbin has 3 karma
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@j_antman RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/513484388966080512)
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pdurbin tantek: jeff atwood mentioned it on the stackoverflow podcast. I guess it stuck with me. or maybe it was joel spolsky
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tantek great reference
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tantek perhaps we should mention it on /domain-name
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KartikPrabhu is the wiki PG? :P
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pdurbin think of the children
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tantek we can just document it as a positive example without explaining it
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kylewm pdurbin: ha, i think that is where i heard it too
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pdurbin i listened to every episode. good podcast overall. too bad jeff isn't on the newer one
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pdurbin i guess he's off fixing markdown these days
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tantek pdurbin - are you watching the edgeconf.com live video feed? good stuff.
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pdurbin hmm, i love me some podcasts but I don't typically watch live feeds
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tantek some high quality webdev stuff
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bret woop, got syndication links working: http://bret.io/2014/09/21/now-i-just-have-to-m/
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pdurbin clicks
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pdurbin huh. it totally makes sense that akamai has an office in SF but being in Boston I never considered this
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pdurbin I'll be in SF a week from now. Giving a talk at JavaOne.
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kylewm bret: what thing were you using to encode urls in nodejs?
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kylewm i want to reference it on http://indiewebcamp.com/micropub#Multiple_in-reply-to
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bret kylewm ones ec
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bret kylewm https://www.npmjs.org/package/form-urlencoded
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kylewm bret: thank you, and did it encode key=value1&key=value2, or were there other weird characters in there?
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bret errmm
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bret let me check again
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kylewm e.g. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-09-20/line/1411238731235
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bret Im pretty sure that was the encoded version of {"syndicate-to": [url1, url2]}
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bret > urlencode.encode({"syndicate-to": ["twitter.com/bret", "facebook.com/bret"]})
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bret 'syndicate-to%5B%5D=twitter.com%2Fbret&syndicate-to%5B%5D=facebook.com%2Fbret'
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bret thats what *a* node url encoder does
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kylewm ohh
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bret does that look correct? or is micropubs thing correct
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kylewm it's setting the parameter name to "syndicate-to[]"
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bret heh
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bret srlsly?
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bret lol "'syndicate-to[]=twitter.com/bret&syndicate-to[]=facebook.com/bret'"
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bret Shit I wonder if there is a better way to do this
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kylewm the [] is common, i'm not sure whether it has any actual meaning other than convention
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kylewm for multivalued form parameters
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bret reposting for history:
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bret [18:10:49] <tantek> i cant see the posting ui
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bret [18:12:54] <bret> tantek the screenshot is of the posting UI, but a screenshot on the home page would be good
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bret [18:13:19] <tantek> right - I can't see why I'm bothering with all the setup at https://quill.p3k.io/auth/start
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bret tantek: https://github.com/aaronpk/Quill/issues/2
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kylewm tantek: a screenshot of textboxes on the homepage? wouldn't that be confusing?
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bret It would be in context
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tantek the UI should be on the home page
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bret so, a screenshot of a browser window
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tantek and *with* a login box
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tantek if you're not logged in
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tantek flatten the whole thing
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bret oh that would actually be better, just grey out everything
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kylewm gotcha, more like https://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/new/
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bret kylewm re []... interesting. I wonder how my parser actually treats it
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kylewm all examples i found were in php
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kylewm and i don't know php well enough to know what magic it was doing
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bret ill ask aaronpk or barnaby when either is around.
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bret I mean, Im not apposed to splitting and joining parameters
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kylewm bret: I added a Code Coverage badge like you :) https://github.com/kylewm/mf2util/blob/master/README.md
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kylewm bret++
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Loqi bret has 26 karma
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bret nice kylewm!
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bret kylewm++
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Loqi kylewm has 53 karma
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bret pretty easy? what did you use?
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kylewm bret: Coveralls
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kylewm the only weird part is some random python distutils nonsense
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bret kylewm yeah that is a little weird. thats why I used code climate
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bret but they don't do python yet :(
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bret it uses http://gotwarlost.github.io/istanbul/ instead of proprietary libs
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Phae Tantek is busy praising how great this channel is
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Loqi Phae: tantek left you a message 3 weeks, 4 days ago: you coming tomorrow night too, right? Add yourselves! http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-07-30-homebrew-website-club#RSVP
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Phae So naggy. :P
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fberriman.com blog edited /IRC_People (+110) "/* Nicknames */ Added myself" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu Phae: the "tweet" link on your homepage does not link to your twitter it seems
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Phae Meh. Oh well.
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@kevinmarks @anildash @waxpancake why the silo? #ownyourdata - @withknown supports hosting music with POSSE to soundcloud (twitter.com/_/status/513552123829579776)
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@kyle_wm @duckinator i wrote that Q in re to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern#Platform_trap (i.e. "flat files work everywhere"). my point was that they don't. @kevinmarks (twitter.com/_/status/513556863988686849)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kyle_wm/513556863988686849/513557349189947392 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern#Platform_trap (webmention)
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KartikPrabhu man why don't people write actual artilces instead of multi-tweet things that are hard to read
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kylewm the Platform trap section is bogus anyway, I can't think of any database that prevents you from using any particular language or OS
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kylewm except maybe MS Access?
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KartikPrabhu maybe. but using a line-by-line critique misses the context and the point
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KartikPrabhu really does not care much about this database war
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petermolnar > man why don't people write actual artilces instead of multi-tweet things that are hard to read < THIS
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petermolnar I totally agree :)
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kylewm will take your advice
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kylewm not that it was directed at me particularly
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kylewm I'm very frustrated about the database thing though
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kylewm things that would be fun lively debates in person turn into personal attacks on twitter :(
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: yeah I know.
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petermolnar it's not just twitter, mostly any online communication ends up like that soon, including forums & most of the mailing lists
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kyle_wm/513556863988686849/513562724719009794 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern#Platform_trap (webmention)
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KartikPrabhu anything short form will do that
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: also I don't mean to dissuade you from following this debate. Someone has to :)
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kylewm.com edited /Loqi (+198) "/* Ideas */ limit the number of RT notifications for a given post." (view diff)
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: I'm an only child. I don't handle confrontation well ;)
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KartikPrabhu ha! I do, but I end up making it more confrontational :P
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kylewm.com edited /storage (-134) "/* Markdown plus extensions */ remove me" (view diff)
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@rtaibah Another one bites the dust. OhLife is shutting down in October. #indieWeb http://ohlife.com/shutdown (twitter.com/_/status/513582462371241984)
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tantek oh what?
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@cubicgarden @Jas Not heard of it, but looks good. Seems very much #indieweb style whichi is good @withknown (twitter.com/_/status/513582647847956480)
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tantek kylewm - we should document current db / flat file usage
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tantek and explicitly note the divergence of approaches
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KevinMarks anyone want to help me unbreak noterlive? - I think it's time to integrate micropub, but the heroku hosting breaks on me
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tantek KevinMarks - how hard would it be to move it from heroku to "normal" web hosting
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tantek ?
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KevinMarks it's not much code, especially server-side
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kylewm KevinMarks: what part is broken?
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KevinMarks I can run it locally; when I deploy to heroku I get a dead app
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KevinMarks 2014-09-21T05:59:23.222504+00:00 app[web.1]: Error: Cannot find module './proto' 2014-09-21T05:59:23.222510+00:00 app[web.1]: at Module.require (module.js:364:17) 2014-09-21T05:59:23.216968+00:00 app[web.1]: throw err;
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tantek What is Heroku?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Heroku" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Heroku
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kylewm KevinMarks: I got a little bit farther http://kwm-noterlive.herokuapp.com/
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kylewm though I'm not able to login
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kylewm it redirects me to noterlive.com
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KevinMarks yeah, that's stupidly hardcoded
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kylewm all I did was bump express up to the latest 3.x version "express": "3.17.4",
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kylewm
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kylewm oh and actually I removed node_modules from git, but I don't know if you're supposed to do that or not
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KevinMarks sounds like a good idea
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KevinMarks as we want heroku to recreate them
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @kyle_wm: I got a little bit farther (twitter.com/_/status/513588565272694784)
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KevinMarks well, it works if I hack the redirect URL back from twitter
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KevinMarks so that should be an ENV
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KevinMarks hm, looking better
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KevinMarks I think the node_modules was the key part
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KevinMarks kylewm++
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Loqi kylewm has 54 karma
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KevinMarks I think at some point I committed my node_modules, and thanks to git being ambiguous, adding them to the exclusion file didn't work
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@kyle_wm #indieweb @kyle_wm: I've seen noterlive demoed a couple times but never tried it myself, it is really cool! (twitter.com/_/status/513591226185285632)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @kyle_wm: oh and actually I removed node_modules from git http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-09-21/line/1411283840785 (thanks Kyle, derp on my part) (twitter.com/_/status/513591467332599808)
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KevinMarks I have noterlive.com working again yay!
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Loqi does a happy dance!
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KevinMarks now I can do that whole micropub integration thing I started at indiewebcamp sf
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kylewm yay! good night all :)
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Loqi buenas noches
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KevinMarks though making the URL not hardcoded would be good too
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kylewm hard-coding urls is a core tenet of self-dogfooding
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks: hurray! noterlive looked awesome when I saw it in action once, But then it broke. good for collaborative debigging
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@True_io RT @kevinmarks: "@ebrent: @justin @drbarnard http://t.co/P7SyuHGtna" #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/513596275758219264)
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shaners benatkin: (missed your question yesterday) I tend to use either Webrick (in the Ruby standard lib) or Puma (puma.io) (for both dev and prod on heorku)
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shaners butter: Who are you? Can you add yourself to: https://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people please?
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@veganstraightedge I wish @aral would've chosen a different name than "indie tech" and "ind.ie". #indieweb was already around. This just confuses people. (twitter.com/_/status/513606545754447874)
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neuro` Good morning.
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tommorris.org edited /Facebook (+215) "/* Real Name demands */ adding another story" (view diff)
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@u203d @ojmason @congabonga Hm, so a POSSE solution for articles, probably doable with http://indiewebcamp.com/Known with some effort (twitter.com/_/status/513673482400706560)
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@badgermind @andyravensable will do survey tomorrow when at a computer - am thinking about blog UX for projects of my own after @IndieWebCampUK (twitter.com/_/status/513674068831506432)
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@Mr_Sbrillo HEY! New post on our blog! COme and discover our new logo! #BESEgames #gamedev #indieweb #videogames #logo (twitter.com/_/status/513683054284779520)
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@GamingMuchroom RT @Mr_Sbrillo: HEY! New post on our blog! COme and discover our new logo! #BESEgames #gamedev #indieweb #videogames #logo (twitter.com/_/status/513683116113002496)
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@Parodossy Mr_Sbrillo: HEY! New post on our blog! COme and discover our new logo! #BESEgames #gamedev #indieweb #videogames #logo (twitter.com/_/status/513684420390567936)
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@GamingMuchroom RT @Parodossy: Mr_Sbrillo: HEY! New post on our blog! COme and discover our new logo! #BESEgames #gamedev #indieweb #videogames #logo (twitter.com/_/status/513684437591404545)
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@BillSeitz @joeld @davextreme @manton any visible examples of back-and-forth BlogThread using WebMention? #OpenTwitter (twitter.com/_/status/513694912106475520)
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parzzix Started an Known installation, installed mongodb, but the install script is asking for SQL? does that mean no more mongodb?
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tantek good morning!
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KartikPrabhu morning tantek
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tantek reads today's logs
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tantek congrats kevinmarks and kylewm for unbreaking noterlive!
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rascul parzzix it should work happily with either though i've only used mysql for i
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parzzix rascul, is their a way to tell it to use mongo?
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tantek KartikPrabhu, kylewm you two post indie reply threads quite a bit - want to reply to https://twitter.com/BillSeitz/status/513694912106475520 and clue them into the fact that this is a solved problem and folks here in the community are doing this all the time?
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@BillSeitz @joeld @davextreme @manton any visible examples of back-and-forth BlogThread using WebMention? #OpenTwitter (twitter.com/_/status/513694912106475520)
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@joeld .@gRegorLove? RT @BillSeitz: @joeld @davextreme @manton any visible examples of back-and-forth BlogThread using WebMention? #OpenTwitter (twitter.com/_/status/513699407129505792)
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tantek yeah that ^^^
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rascul parzzix best i can do for you is link you to the docs, it mentions mongodb http://docs.withknown.com/en/latest/install/instructions.html
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KartikPrabhu tantek: I think they are looking for http://indiewebcamp.com/reply-chain
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tantek didn't ben_thatmust solve that?
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parzzix rascul, ok thanks
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KartikPrabhu tantek yes
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tantek we should add his examples to http://indiewebcamp.com/reply-chain#Indieweb_Examples then!
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Loqi agreed.
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rascul parzzix you can have it hosted at withknown.com if you donn't want to do all the setup
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tantek Loqi, could you do that for me?
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parzzix rascul, I have one there, but even if I forward and mask domain, the rel-me links don't seem to work.
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rascul ahh ok
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KartikPrabhu tantek: yes looking for the said example
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KartikPrabhu tantek: https://ben.thatmustbe.me/note/2014/9/12/1/_ ?
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tantek and https://ben.thatmustbe.me/note/2014/9/12/2/_ ?
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KartikPrabhu neat I'll add both
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tantek awesome thanks!
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tantek ben_thatmust's accomplishment deserves it's own post though
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kartikprabhu.com edited /reply-chain (+179) "/* Indieweb Examples */ add ben_thatmustbeme example" (view diff)
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tantek but his posts don't have rel-syndication links to the POSSE copies!
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tantek so if I want to POSSE thread reply I have to go dig for the tweet copy :/
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tantek that's not it - it's that not all his notes/replies are POSSE'd to twitter
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KartikPrabhu ah ok
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tantek https://ben.thatmustbe.me/note/2014/9/12/1/_ is POSSE'd (hence small twitter icon), but https://ben.thatmustbe.me/note/2014/9/12/2/_ is not :/
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tantek makes it hard to reply!
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tantek ok fine I will do a multi-reply!
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KartikPrabhu ha! :P
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tantek ah - he himself is not reply-threading his POSSE tweets
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KartikPrabhu parzzix: wondering if this helps: http://docs.withknown.com/en/latest/install/instructions.html#if-you-re-using-mongodb maybe you have seen it already
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ben_thatmust whats up?
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KartikPrabhu I added your reply-chains as examples to the wiki
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KartikPrabhu maybe you want to expand on it, add screenshots or something
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KartikPrabhu oh boy: https://thoughtstreams.io/joeld/microblogging-with-rss/
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ben_thatmust ahh, just reading back on that thread
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@t Well done Ben Roberts! 2014-09-12 First #indieweb federated reply-context thread presentation: https://ben.thatmustbe.me/note/2014/9/12/1/_ (ttk.me t4YE1) (twitter.com/_/status/513704854519549952)
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tantek oops forgot that Twitter requires an @-reference to reply thread
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tantek drat
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KartikPrabhu now you can't edit it :P
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ben_thatmust yeah tantek, the first reply was set to POSSE to twitter via twitter, the second one tries to but uses brid.gy and since what i was replying to wasn't posse'd to twitter, it doesn't posse to twitter
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ben_thatmust i believe
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ben_thatmust at the time i had every note set to send to twitter via bridgy
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@t Well done @dissolve333! 2014-09-12 First #indieweb federated reply-context thread presentation https://ben.thatmustbe.me/note/2014/9/12/1/_ (ttk.me t4YE1) (twitter.com/_/status/513705594218631168)
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tantek KartikPrabhu watch me :D ^^^
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KartikPrabhu waaaa.... how!?
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KartikPrabhu you have Twitter pro or something?
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tantek KartikPrabhu: POSSE CRUD of course ;) http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE#CRUD and http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE#Update in particular :D
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tantek oh and now for the curl webmentions
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tantek well that half worked. https://ben.thatmustbe.me/note/2014/9/12/1/_ shows my reply
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tantek but not https://ben.thatmustbe.me/note/2014/9/12/2/_ despite the fact that my reply http://tantek.com/2014/264/t1/first-indieweb-federated-reply-context-thread has a in-reply-to link to it!
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tantek ben_thatmust: are you only checking *inside* the e-content?
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tantek for the webmention source?
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ben_thatmust no, i should be looking for it... let me check whats up
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KartikPrabhu errr forgot to #indieweb but here is a reply: https://twitter.com/kartik_prabhu/status/513707404505001984
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@kartik_prabhu @joeld @gRegorLove @BillSeitz @davextreme @manton How about https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/american-gods-outsider and https://kylewm.com/reply/2014/08/31/1/wow-that-is-really-insightful-you with @kyle_wm and myself? (twitter.com/_/status/513707404505001984)
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tantek I sent exactly one webmention to each of those posts
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KartikPrabhu of course I picked an example where I was called "insightful" ;)
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ben_thatmust huh, weird, its still showing those mentions as queued in the DB
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ben_thatmust ahhhh
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ben_thatmust the webmention i'm showing came from bridgy, came it just before the cron ran
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tantek kylewm - since when did you start showing reply-context threads?!? https://kylewm.com/reply/2014/08/31/1/wow-that-is-really-insightful-you
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ben_thatmust your's came it just after
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ben_thatmust so it should display them in 6 minutes
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tantek ben_thatmust: I see them now!
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tantek so now the question is, can you implement de-duping of my comment here https://ben.thatmustbe.me/note/2014/9/12/1/_
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ben_thatmust oh there we are, i forgot, that cron is on 5 minutes
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tantek per http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention##De-duplication
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ben_thatmust yeah, thats a good question, they are coming in from 2 sources
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ben_thatmust hmm
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tantek "Ideally, recipients should try to de-dupe webmention sources, preferring an original post "
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tantek this may actually be easier to implement: http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention#prefer_original_posts
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ben_thatmust not in this case the tweet/brid.gy copy came it first, which doesn't actually have a link back to your page. what I can do though is when i get a webmention with rel-syndication i can find updates from that
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tantek the tweet copy doesn't need a link back to my page!
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tantek oh shoot red link
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tantek.com created /original_post_discovery (+37) "r" (view diff)
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tantek fixed. http://indiewebcamp.com/original-post-discovery
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tantek see http://indiewebcamp.com/original-post-discovery#Algorithm
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tantek in particular: 5. otherwise if a parenthetical permashortlink citation is the last thing in the POSSE'd copy content, convert that to a URL, use that as the candidate URL
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ben.thatmustbe.me edited /User:Ben.thatmustbe.me (+157) "/* OpenBlog */" (view diff)
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ben_thatmust on my de-deduplication
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ben_thatmust s/de-duplication/todo list
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tantek.com edited /original-post-discovery (+23) "/* Algorithm */ link to permashortcitation" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /User:Ben.thatmustbe.me (+106) "link to algorithms to make it easier" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu what is reply-thread?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "reply-thread" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=reply-thread
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KartikPrabhu tantek redirect ^ to reply-chain ?
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neuro` Good not sure what part of the day.
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tantek !tell kylewm - is this a multi-reply or are you displaying a reply-context *thread* the way that ben_thatmust does? https://kylewm.com/reply/2014/08/31/1/wow-that-is-really-insightful-you
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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KartikPrabhu tantek: that is a reply thread for sure
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KartikPrabhu oh hmm maybe not so sure now
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tantek KartikPrabhu: no it could be a manual multi-reply
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KartikPrabhu yeah
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ben_thatmust no, its a multi-reply
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KartikPrabhu good time neuro`
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ben_thatmust at least it looks that way
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KartikPrabhu ben_thatmust: it also "looks" like a reply thread :P
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tantek is reply-thread or reply-chain better?
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KartikPrabhu traditional blog term is thread no?
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tantek because we have both http://indiewebcamp.com/reply-context#reply_thread and http://indiewebcamp.com/reply-chain (likely my fault)
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tantek ok thread it is
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tantek.com moved /reply-chain to /reply-thread "thread is more often used than chain"
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tantek.com edited /reply-thread (+116) "reword dfn, subhead for ben, sublist, since 2014-09-12" (view diff)
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ben_thatmust i should probably do a post about the algorith i use
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Loqi I agree
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ben_thatmust thanks Loqi
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Loqi you're welcome
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tantek.com edited /reply-context (+23) "/* reply thread */ main article, link with date rather than just "here"" (view diff)
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ben_thatmust tantek, your replies don't include at timezone at all :(
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Loqi aww, cheer up
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KartikPrabhu default to UTC ?
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GWG ben_thatmust: Does tantek have a timezone problem too?
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ben_thatmust KartikPrabhu, i default back to the time the message came in if its not there, i believe i take the time on the post if it isn't precise and just assume its local time to me
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bret.io uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:Screen Shot 2014-09-20 at 6.19.27 PM.png]]""
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ben_thatmust everything i display is localtime, but my posts also contain the full datetime in ISO format
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ben_thatmust i went about normalizing everything to localtime a while ago on my site
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bret.io edited /Quill (+72) "Added screenshot and me" (view diff)
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bret.io edited /Quill (+6) "Resized image" (view diff)
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bret.io edited /Twitter (+6) "/* Downtime */ Resized image (was too big)" (view diff)
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tantek GWG yes I have a timezone problem
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tantek my posts are in US/Pacific - without explicitly noting that in the data. it's a bug I need to fix.
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GWG tantek, ditto.
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ben_thatmust heh, i'm like the TZ checker
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GWG ben_thatmust: I fixed the div
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ben_thatmust excellent GWG
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kylewm tantek: yep, plain old manual multi reply
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Loqi kylewm: tantek left you a message 25 minutes ago: - is this a multi-reply or are you displaying a reply-context *thread* the way that ben_thatmust does? https://kylewm.com/reply/2014/08/31/1/wow-that-is-really-insightful-you
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KartikPrabhu aww no reply-thread by kylewm
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Loqi [mention] https://kylewm.com/article/2014/09/21/1/antipatterns-antipattern linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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@distobj RT @t: Well done @dissolve333! 2014-09-12 First #indieweb federated reply-context thread presentation https://ben.thatmustbe.me/note/2014/9/12/1/_ (ttk.me t4YE1) (twitter.com/_/status/513723659643785217)
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kartikprabhu.com created /file-storage (+373) "stubbed a page" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: ask and you shall receive!
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kylewm \o/
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kartikprabhu.com edited /file-storage (+259) "remove MySQL mis-type. add myself to wants to list" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu !tell tantek add yourself to /file-storage ?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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kartikprabhu.com edited /file-storage (+95) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ add Bundle and article file ref." (view diff)
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kartikprabhu.com edited /database-antipattern (+19) "/* See Also */ add file storage link" (view diff)
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kylewm "Has played with YAML-based storage but does not like it." teehee
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@derRaab RT @karenmcgrane: Ooookay, sure. “For any content you care about, don't put the primary copy in a database.” http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern via @cr… (twitter.com/_/status/513657683082493953)
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kartikprabhu.com edited /database (+32) "/* See Also */ add file storage link" (view diff)
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@kartik_prabhu @joeld @gRegorLove @davextreme @manton @kyle_wm my response to @BillSeitz 's response https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/webmention-reply-questions-billseitz (twitter.com/_/status/513729827028090880)
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: this "ThoughtStreams" site is interesting, have not seen it before
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kylewm basically formalized Tweetstorms
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: me neither came across it from the webmention tweet discussion
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KartikPrabhu I wonder how they reckon to do webmention through RSS
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kylewm for reference https://thoughtstreams.io/joeld/microblogging-with-rss/
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KartikPrabhu "But the fact is, there's no way to guarantee you'll know if someone mentions you, because there's nothing forcing them to send that notification." yes. nothing should force them to send a mention anyway, it is their choice!
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kylewm danlyke is working on that i think :) proactively spidering his friends to find mentions
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KartikPrabhu I wouldn't like that
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KartikPrabhu and it doesn't work for people you know anyway
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kylewm don't^
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KartikPrabhu yeah don't*
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kylewm I think the idea is you check for mentions from friends and friends of friends, and anything is a pretty high probability to be spam
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KartikPrabhu errr on 2nd thoughts that is what bridgy does :P
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kylewm anything else*
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KartikPrabhu so you could spider someone's RSS feed and if it had a reply to your article then parse said article in the RSS feed and add it. But again duplication of efforts and data wrt to HTML
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kylewm mimicks snarfed and backs away slowly from RSS vs. HTML
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KartikPrabhu :)
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@BillSeitz RT @kartik_prabhu: @joeld @gRegorLove @davextreme @manton @kyle_wm my response to @BillSeitz 's response https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/webmention-reply-questions-billseitz (twitter.com/_/status/513734038906241024)
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@danlyke .@poachable I'd go out of my way to support and even champion any company which used personal URL/IndieWeb/micro formats profiles! (twitter.com/_/status/513736381676273665)
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KevinMarks Check for mentions from everyone else? That sounds familiar...
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KevinMarks I solved the rss problem - you parse html, feed.unmung.com turns rss/atom into html for you
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks++ for unmung RSS->HTML
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Loqi KevinMarks has 56 karma
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@RonKJeffries RT @erinjo: Overview of @withknown and the #indieweb on @FIRpodcast at 0:27: http://forimmediaterelease.biz/index.php?/weblog/comments/the_hobson_holtz_report_podcast_773_september_15_2014&utm_content=buffer9ed2d&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer // HT @kyle_wm (twitter.com/_/status/513740738581254145)
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@andrewschepers @WithKnown's answer to #IndieWeb looks very promising. How about LinkedIn, Instagram, WP & G+ integrations? TWiG 266: http://twit.tv/show/this-week-in-google/266 (twitter.com/_/status/513744700419743744)
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@HongPong who's making open souce git commits on a Sunday? this guy >> @benwerd https://github.com/idno/idno/commits/master way 2 go @withknown keep pluggin on #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/513745383659278336)
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GWG What's going on?
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bret working on twitter posse
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GWG bret: How so?
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bret when I post a note via micropub with a syndicate-to field set, I want it to actually land on twitter ^_^ (right now it does nothing)
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bret I have syndication option disovery working though: http://bret.io/2014/09/21/now-i-just-have-to-m/
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GWG bret: I just can't get the formattig up
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bret GWG not sure what you mean?
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bret would be cool to do a mobile twitter client api -> micropub client, via the API root url. wonder how far along shaners got on that
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GWG bret: I have trouble getting the Twitter output to be consistent with the software I'm using, to the point I'm writing a Bridgy Publish plugin for Wordpress to add in the publish URL and send the mention so it will POSSE for me
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bret oh hrmmm. Yeah not sure how I am going to deal with format inconstancies. I'm going to avoid using bridy publish as I already have gitpub
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@theindieweb Due to lack of experience in the domain, we are going to be shutting down our blog. Thank you to those who supported. Go IndieWeb! (twitter.com/_/status/513748652582768640)
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kylewm GWG: sorry if you already know, but you don't actually have to have the link to bridgy publish in your post, you can just send a webmention without a backlink
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GWG That changed? Good to know
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kylewm (i'm not sure it's such a good idea for bridgy to allow that, as someone could "maliciously" post your posts to social media)
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GWG kylewm: I'll be doing it with a publish URL for my own safety then
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kylewm huh, too bad theindieweb.com is shutting down
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bret who ran that?
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kylewm not sure
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bret we could totally use more people to help document stuff
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bret which twitter API do people use for twitter posse?
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kylewm Bridgy uses Tweepy; I just use requests-oauthlib and the http API
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bret can I use the streaming api for POSSE?
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kylewm bret: streaming API is read-only I'm pretty sure
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@PinPopular database-antipattern - IndieWebCamp http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/513758580999487488)
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bear bret - if you use python-twitter you get free support from one of the contributors for life
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bret :) thanks bear
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bear but yea, both will do the job for posse
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@davidbgk > The database antipattern is the use of a db for primary long-term storage of posts and other personal content — http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/513763885053382657)
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@ScottWNesbitt RT @dangillmor: Want to understand IndieWeb better? See this (no sound) animation: https://www.youtube.com/ (twitter.com/_/status/513771433571258369)
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@dajbelshaw Getting Started - IndieWebCamp http://thoughtshrapnel.com/post/98079726972/getting-started-indiewebcamp#_=_ (twitter.com/_/status/513772644198780929)
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bret twitter api is kind of confusing :/
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@DodgerWA RT @danlyke: .@poachable I'd go out of my way to support and even champion any company which used personal URL/IndieWeb/micro formats profi… (twitter.com/_/status/513778774433755136)
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kylewm.com edited /User:Tantek.com (+287) "/* RelMeAuth PHP library */ note my pull request hoping to fix this" (view diff)
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kylewm bret: anything in particular?06
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bret just deciding how to do the oauth dace
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bret il should just make the good part work, and fix that later
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bret (POSEE being the good part and just manually generate keys)
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parzzix kylewm, redwind uses sqlite?
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kylewm parzzix: it does right now, i may or may not migrate to postgres eventually
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parzzix kylewm
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parzzix kylewm opps....thanks
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kylewm bret: did you find an oauth library for node?
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KevinMarks_ Noterlive just uses the OAuth library in node
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bret kylewm there are some twitter libs in node I was testing out
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bret KevinMarks_ did you figure out your noter live troubles?
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KevinMarks_ Yes, I had checked in a stale npm_modules that was confusing things, and putting it in .ignore wasn't enough
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KevinMarks_ Had to explicitly nuke it
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KevinMarks_ Try it out noterlive.com
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bret KevinMarks++ that looks awesome!
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Loqi KevinMarks has 57 karma
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KevinMarks_ Kylewm++ for pointing out my mistake
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Loqi Kylewm has 55 karma
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bret KevinMarks a decent git ignore for node: https://github.com/bcomnes/gitpub/blob/master/.gitignore
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KevinMarks_ The server side bit of noterlive is pretty simple https://github.com/kevinmarks/noterlive/blob/master/web.js
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bret Is it cool that consumerSecret is public?
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@singh_gurjeet RT @robtreat2: RT @papa_fire: This has got to be an elaborate trolling, otherwise all is lost for this industry http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/513801815499231232)
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@JCCPalmer The Internet: "Humanity's Greatest Invention" http://jpalmer.withknown.com/2014/humanitys-greatest-invention #indieweb #InternetRights (twitter.com/_/status/513802516840988672)
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@puppet_ebooks Indieweb: WE ARE YOU UP here, this indie web. lol (twitter.com/_/status/513803875967827968)
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bret whut
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tantek lol
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Loqi tantek: KartikPrabhu left you a message 5 hours, 19 minutes ago: add yourself to /file-storage ?
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tantek ok
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GWG What's going on?
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GWG People still making an issue out of databases?
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tantek GWG, people who collect Cargo Cult habits respond emotionally to having their assumptions questioned.
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tantek.com edited /file-storage (+521) "add self to IndieWeb example, rm blank criticism until there is actual real world" (view diff)
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GWG tantek: I just don't see how it is an Indieweb issue.
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GWG I own my content if I run a database server
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GWG Me not running a database server is in the same category as Wordpress vs Known vs Redwind...
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tantek GWG it's an indieweb issue because self-maintained web sites are particularly sensitive to admin tax
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bear.im edited /file-storage (+293) "add bear.im to list" (view diff)
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GWG It's certainly a valuable conversation.
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GWG I'm not disagreeing with that.
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GWG What is admin tax?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "admin tax" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=admin+tax
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bear the ironic part in all of this is that they bitch about indieweb not being diverse but yet bitch when we try to show how to do things as simple as possible so it *CAN BE DONE* by non-technical folks using just an editor
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GWG bear: I agree with that point as well.
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bear flags himself for being in a foul mood and wanders off to literally cool off as errands outside have taken their due
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bear.im edited /file-storage (+17) "add starting date - 2003-12-18" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /domain_name (+29) "r" (view diff)
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GWG I find the idea of flat file storage interesting, but am not ready to go in that direction.
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tantek.com created /domain_registrar (+35) "r" (view diff)
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bear like all design decisions, you have to weight the costs and go with what works for you
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tantek.com created /DBA_tax (+42) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /admin_tax (+437) "stub since GWG asked" (view diff)
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GWG tantek: Would you add to that...adding new features?
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GWG In your opinion, is that an applicable example?
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GWG Or would that be something else?
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GWG I know I've commented in here on developing more than content creation
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tantek bear: ignore the cargo cultists - they will never innovate anything. Cargo cultists are by definition copiers, followers, immitators of things they don't understand nor how to question them and do better.
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bear nods
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bear working on it
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tantek they are good at a couple of things however: posting tweets and emails.
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bear.im edited /file-storage (+14) "/* Bear */" (view diff)
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tantek GWG add what to adding new features?
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GWG tantek: Does adding new features to your personal site rather than using it fall under the definition of admin tax?
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tantek GWG more like development tax ;)
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tantek rather than admin
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GWG What is development tax?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "development tax" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=development+tax
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GWG I'm on it
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tantek heh
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tantek it *is* a tax of sorts, above and beyond simply *using* an existing already developed solution/project
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KartikPrabhu GWG: I hae doing a "syncdb" everytime I add something to my database. Presumably (I hope) in a file storage it can be done by simply adding a new field to the test file through a text editor
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KartikPrabhu tantek: is this true for Falcon Storage ? ^
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KartikPrabhu GWG: also see http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern#How_is_this_related_to_the_indieweb.3F for your earlier question
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bear.im edited /file-storage (-15) "/* Bear */" (view diff)
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tantek KartikPrabhu: re: your question: http://indiewebcamp.com/Falcon#Publishing_UI
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KartikPrabhu tantek: neat. So if one day you have to add a "new field" you just add it in BBedit and it works yes?
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tantek correct
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tantek that's the nice thing about markup - you never have to "alter table"
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tantek :)
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KartikPrabhu see that is the comparison to make. a fully working file storage with a fully working DB. Not a "ooo I have to make folders and files" with a full-fledged MySQL
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bear that is both an advantage and an eventual curse for flat file storage with static generation - you re-read almost everything to generate the site, so adding new things is easy
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david.shanske.com created /development_tax (+460) "Created page with "{{stub}} '''<dfn>development tax</dfn>''' is all the time you spend <em>development</em> the software that runs your personal site, rather than actually <em>using</em> it (like ..."" (view diff)
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bear but even that problem (the loading of the entire site) is solvable with some coding
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GWG KartikPrabhu: I see the point, but I'm still not convinced. But if anyone wants a flat file database..I'm for it for them
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KartikPrabhu GWG: the convincing thing is up to you, your use case and tastes. The good thing is for the indieweb to work today, we don't really care what your backend is!
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KartikPrabhu tantek: good idea to copy+edit the last two questions here http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern#Isn.27t_flat-files_a_form_of_database.3F to /file-storage ?
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GWG KartikPrabhu: That is what I like
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GWG Especially since I know there are a lot of comments on my backed
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GWG backend
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KartikPrabhu and that is what these "wars" don't understand. pardon my French but no one gives a flying-fuck what you use, if your website works
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tantek KartikPrabhu: which question(s)?
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KartikPrabhu "Isn't flat-files a form of database? " and "How is this related to the indieweb? " to an FAQ section in /file-storage
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GWG KartikPrabhu: I'll drink to that...if I drank
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tantek KartikPrabhu: it's a religious war - not rational - hence http://youtu.be/gb_qHP7VaZE
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tantek KartikPrabhu: it was asked in the context of /database-antipattern so it belongs there
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tantek both of them
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tantek so I'd leave them ehre
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KartikPrabhu ok cool
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GWG Cross reference?
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tantek.com created /User:Kevinbeynon.com (+75) "stub" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu tantek: I lol at your video
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tantek.com created /User:Www.techfox.co.uk (+73) "stub with an h-card" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /2014/UK (+167) "add Blog Posts section, trim extra cruft" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /code-of-conduct-examples (+72) "/* Examples */ dConstruct 2014 Code of conduct" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /2014/UK (+81) "/* Blog Posts */ adactio Switching to https" (view diff)
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tantek I'm wondering if we should document "cargo cult programming" as a phenomenon
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tantek and cite these purely emotional responses as evidence thereof
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tantek the cargo-cult-antipattern ;)
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KartikPrabhu tantek: would that worsen the situation though? more flame wars
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tantek The answer to flame wars is to document them rationally and let history judge them accordingly.
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tantek The documentation will continue until the flaming stops.
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tantek.com edited /2014/UK (+84) "/* Blog Posts */ adactio Indie Web Camp UK 2014" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /User:Retout.co.uk (+63) "add h-card" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /Go (+185) "stub with dfn, see also" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu tantek: possibly. just thinking that indiewebcamp might not need more "wars" at the moment
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tantek.com edited /Craft (+12) "linky linky" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /CMS (+39) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /content_management_system (+280) "stub with dfn, short list, see also" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /transmat (+42) "r" (view diff)
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@BillSeitz .@kartik_prabhu @joeld @kyle_wm I feel like you still need a BlogComment system, so WebMention-s is double work. http://webseitz.fluxent.com/wiki/BlogThread (twitter.com/_/status/513827659563147265)
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tantek.com edited /2014/UK/Demos (+320) "expand see also subsection with list of both Kevin and my posts" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /User:Kevinbeynon.com (+252) "add participant in UK quote from Twitter" (view diff)
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@kartik_prabhu @BillSeitz @joeld @kyle_wm I seem to be fine without a comment system. See your Twitter reply on my site here: https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/webmention-reply-questions-billseitz#responses (twitter.com/_/status/513829418788069376)
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KartikPrabhu segue webmention to backfeed :P
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KartikPrabhu interesting response: https://twitter.com/BillSeitz/status/513829649164423168
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@BillSeitz @kartik_prabhu @joeld @kyle_wm How does someone without a blog make a comment of more than 140chars? (twitter.com/_/status/513829649164423168)
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tantek.com edited /reply-thread (+364) "resort a bit, preferring indieweb, why (add a why reason), note markup conventions not yet determined" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu for reference: this https://twitter.com/joeld/status/513699407129505792 is turning out to be quite a fruitful "why indieweb discussion". Civilised and with good questions being asked
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@joeld .@gRegorLove? RT @BillSeitz: @joeld @davextreme @manton any visible examples of back-and-forth BlogThread using WebMention? #OpenTwitter (twitter.com/_/status/513699407129505792)
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: I was thinking he had OverCapitalization syndrome before I realized it's wiki wordsi
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KartikPrabhu ha yeah me too
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GWG Can't we all just get along? Regardless of race, religion, or web platform?