#indiewebcamp 2014-09-29

2014-09-29 UTC
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gregorlove.com
edited /Ello (-21) "invite-only, rm clearing linebreak (nothing is floated)."
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KevinMarks
I'm payoff attention to collectqt as they discuss this https://gitlab.com/collectqt/quirell/issues/16
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bear
I missed some of the above conversation - but i'm wondering if the work i'm doing for indie-stats can also be used as a vouch list
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bear
because I'm gathering indieweb sites and have the start of a claim process
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kylewm
KevinMarks++ for the CollectQT issues. My take-away is that spam prevention is not necessarily the same as harrassment/abuse prevention
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Loqi
KevinMarks has 61 karma
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KevinMarks_
Right, and we need to think about those cases too
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KartikPrabhu
snarfed: kylewm: for https://twitter.com/kartik_prabhu/status/516098616595734528 any idea why none of joeld's replies ended up being sent to me by bridgy? original post https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/webmention-abuse-joeld
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@kartik_prabhu
@joeld I appreciate the sentiment and the idea of this post but, I think the suggestion is misguided more: https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/webmention-abuse-joeld #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/516098616595734528)
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: KevinMarks_: how is spam different from harrassment? both are unwanted interactions
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kylewm
KartikPrabhu: looking at bridgy
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KevinMarks_
Spam is automated, scattershot
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gRegor`
Spam doesn't usually have an emotional effect, either.
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kylewm
and it's unlikely you would be sent spam by a follower of a follower
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KevinMarks_
Harassment is personal, targeted, often obsessive
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KartikPrabhu
KevinMarks_: I meant from a blocking perspective
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kylewm
from a blocking perspective, vouch wouldn't be good enough to prevent harrassment
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kylewm
good actor A may follow bad actor B, for any number of reasons
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: blacklists
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KartikPrabhu
liek twitter blocking
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KartikPrabhu
i can use them for both spam and harrassment accounts
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kylewm
maybe, if you can subscribe/share a blacklst
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KartikPrabhu
ad-blocks do that all the time
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KartikPrabhu
also, my personal blacklist need not be shared/used by everyone
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kylewm
no, not by everyone
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tantek
reads logs since
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kylewm
I think the issue with blacklist/whitelist/heuristics is that it's always an arms race
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KartikPrabhu
so is any solution you make
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tantek
kylewm: until it isn't. I'm not convinced it's unwinnable.
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tantek
all you have to do is make it not economically feasible for mass spamming and you win
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tantek
that can be achieved through a natural diversity of approaches
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KartikPrabhu
block chain verification ala bitcoin :P
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tantek
the opposite of monoculture
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kylewm
make it not economically feasible requires something at the spec level, right?
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tantek
kylewm: it requires flexibility at the spec level for diversity at the implementation level
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kylewm
i don't think it's possible for example to solve the problem for email
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tantek
it is that natural diversity of approaches that makes it impractial to build a mass spammer
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tantek
kylewm: correct, email is a lost cause.
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tantek
back to in order
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KartikPrabhu
gets very little spam on email because of Gmail's good filtering
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kylewm
that's not a solution though
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: I get several pieces of spam per day in Gmail.
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kylewm
email is so hard to set up now that people just don't do it
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tantek
right, it's actually getting *more* centralized
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kylewm
joeld pointed out that email has DKIM to deter spam, but it also deters people from self-hosting
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KartikPrabhu
any spam solution you make for webmention can be applied to email too, unless it depends on the spec
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KartikPrabhu
I can tell unknown people that they need a "recommendation from someone I know" before I accept their emails
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: it's too much harder to maintain an email server than a webserver
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KartikPrabhu
well it is hard to make webmention that a static blog...
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KartikPrabhu
any piece of functionality you add will make things more complex
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: possibly, unless it replaces more complexity
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KartikPrabhu
goes for a walk since he does not understand this discussion at any level
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tantek
back to the logs
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tantek
16:51 gRegor` "interested in seeing vouching implemented. I think it will help me understand it better." indeed, implementation will help illustrate. so will a UX flow.
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KevinMarks_
In a sense this vouch idea is reviving the early LinkedIn model
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KevinMarks_
Though there they had the person vouching review the message
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tantek
KevinMarks - you're making the same mistake KartikPrabhu did with email.
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tantek
LinkedIn and email require all steps to be manual
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tantek
whereas by actually using the web, likely all steps of vouching can be automated
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tantek
vouching uses existing publishing behaviors and linking patterns
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tantek
none of this explicit awkward "Connect with me on Linked in!" crap
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tantek
*huge* difference
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tantek
socially, UX etc.
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tantek
16:56 barnabywalters wrt "blocking, I’m a little stumped as to how to implement it effectively in shrewdness" start with use-cases
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tantek
what is blocking?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "blocking" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=blocking
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tantek.com
created /blocking (+19) "r"
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tantek
!tell barnabywalters re: "stumped as to how to implement blocking" see http://indiewebcamp.com/block
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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KevinMarks_
I mean the party of LinkedIn where it would show the social connection between you and a person and you choose a person to vouch for you
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KevinMarks_
s/party/part/
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Loqi
KevinMarks_ meant to say: I mean the part of LinkedIn where it would show the social connection between you and a person and you choose a person to vouch for you
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tantek
and then it would bug them to do so - again, socially awkward, and too many steps
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tantek
vouch protocol has no such nonsense - the intermediary is not bothered one bit
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KevinMarks_
Right, which makes more sense
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tantek
that's the problem with email and any YASNS based thinking on this
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tantek
every email-framing solution involves, how can we use sending email to solve this problem
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tantek
and send more email
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tantek
and for YASNS, instead of email, you get more YASNS based messages to respond to
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KevinMarks_
Originally Friendster had "n steps between you" visible messages, that's closer
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KevinMarks_
N started at 4 or 5 and got pruned fast as they grew
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kylewm
!tell KartikPrabhu best guess for the Bridgy issue is that Twitter search glitched and missed all of joeld's mentions before https://twitter.com/joeld/status/516103704161050624
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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kylewm
!tell KartikPrabhu and then it marked "last activity id" as that id, and didn't go back to look for mentions from before then
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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kylewm
GWG: are you around?
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ben.thatmustbe.me
edited /User:Ben.thatmustbe.me (+7) "delete from micropub now working"
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ben.thatmustbe.me
edited /Micropub (+49) "delete from micropub now working"
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: ok cool. will backfeed manually
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Loqi
KartikPrabhu: kylewm left you a message 16 minutes ago: best guess for the Bridgy issue is that Twitter search glitched and missed all of joeld's mentions before https://twitter.com/joeld/status/516103704161050624
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Loqi
KartikPrabhu: kylewm left you a message 15 minutes ago: and then it marked "last activity id" as that id, and didn't go back to look for mentions from before then
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KartikPrabhu
if I write a post saying " troll.com has been bothering me and so I blocked them " can troll.com use it as a vouch?
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GWG
On 9/28/14 at 6:58pm, {suser:saracen1187} wrote:
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GWG
> Hi, if anyone send a message criticizing what you wrote in my story, don't take it to
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GWG
> heart. I appreciate all contributions :)
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GWG
On 9/28/14 at 6:58pm, {suser:saracen1187} wrote:
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GWG
> Hi, if anyone send a message criticizing what you wrote in my story, don't take it to
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GWG
> heart. I appreciate all contributions :)
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GWG
On 9/28/14 at 6:58pm, {suser:saracen1187} wrote:
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GWG
> Hi, if anyone send a message criticizing what you wrote in my story, don't take it to
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GWG
> heart. I appreciate all contributions :)
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GWG
On 9/28/14 at 6:58pm, {suser:saracen1187} wrote:
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GWG
> Hi, if anyone send a message criticizing what you wrote in my story, don't take it to
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GWG
> heart. I appreciate all contributions :)
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tantek
GWG - overpasting?
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GWG
I pasted all that?
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GWG
Sorry
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GWG
Didn't realize I did that
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KartikPrabhu
given a tweet, how does one find whhich tweet it is in reply to?
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GWG
I commented on something and started a flame war
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GWG
kylewm: Were you looking for me?
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GWG
Must have hit a key combo
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ben_thatmust_
under two weeks till iwc Cambridge. excited
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GWG
ben_thatmust_: Regrettably, I'll only be remote again. It is surrounded by conflict
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parzzix
cool ben_thatmust_, should be a good time for those attending
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ben_thatmust_
surrounded by conflict?
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GWG
I'll be busy Thu and Fri out of town, then the next week, Sunday the 19th, starts my vacation.
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GWG
It's just not a good time to divert to Boston.
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GWG
Otherwise, I'd book a hotel and be there
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GWG
I guess I'll get my webcam and talky in from the woods.
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ben_thatmust_
if our house remodel was finished I'd offer up a free stay top the chat
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GWG
Next time. It is, as I said, a busy time of year. I have absolutely nothing after that confirmed.
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GWG
ben_thatmust_: I think I fixed the HTML problem, by the way. Still holding off on the time problem as it appears to be more complicated and I want to understand why.
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@parzzix
I think I am liking the idea of flat files vs databases. Can anyone name the #indieweb projects that use flat files.
(twitter.com/_/status/516419770208755712)
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: do you know how to find out if a tweet is in reply to another tweet from the tweet data-* attributes?
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ben_thatmust_
beat me to it kartikprabhu
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KartikPrabhu
:) with POSSE, and webmention too :D
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ben_thatmust_
yeah, was trying to do it from my cell phone was the problem
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KartikPrabhu
aah yes :)
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KartikPrabhu
keyboards are still faster :)
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ben_thatmust_
and trying to grab the twitter link loaded the twitter app
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ben_thatmust_
didn't give me a url to reply to
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ben_thatmust_
got deleting working from my micropub endpoint
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ben_thatmust_
decision between adding events, replys, or editing next
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ben_thatmust_
also seems to be somewhat a duplication of /storage
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tantek
ben_thatmust: or we just need to use more {{main|..}} links there
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tantek
I can help with that
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tantek.com
edited /storage (-349) "main / see specific database pages"
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ben_thatmust_
i should probably add openblog to the list of database users
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Loqi
I agree
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KevinMarks_
Anyone looked at rstat.us?
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KartikPrabhu
is looking at and playing with new Twitter API: https://dev.twitter.com/rest/public
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tantek
KevinMarks - rstatus is quite old -
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KartikPrabhu
KevinMarks_ : this is the 1.1 version. or at least this documentation is new
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KartikPrabhu
or me has not seen it before
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@Carols10cents
Sharing this from my own instance of rstatus that you can't make an account for, that i created using the fancy heroku button :) :) :)
(twitter.com/_/status/516422630405320704)
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tantek
ah that's interesting then
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tantek
what is rstatus?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "rstatus" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=rstatus
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KartikPrabhu
interesting.... that Twitter API has no way of getting recent favourites... :(
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kylewm
wilkie from the social wg is a cofounder of rstatus
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kylewm
KartikPrabhu: ha yes quite a large hassle in bridgy
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tantek.com
edited /MongoDB (+490) "add past indieweb example benwerd, more see also"
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tantek
!tell benwerd I presume from http://werd.io/2014/thedavidjohnson-we-actually-recommend-mysql-known-started-with-mongodb-but that you're using MySQL on werd.io? If not please correct me here: indiewebcamp.com/MongoDB
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: yeah it is annoying. even retrieving the actual tweet object only shows a fav/retweet count and not the actual people doing it :|
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tantek
pretty sure that barnabywalters wrote a parsing shim to get reply-chain info from a tweet
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KartikPrabhu
re: blacklists the Twitter API also allows to add/remove blocked/mutes users so a local blacklist can then be propagated to Twitter so you never get mentions from them via Twitter
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: just to note you can get favourites through the Streaming API: https://dev.twitter.com/streaming/overview/messages-types#Events_event
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tantek.com
edited /PostgreSQL (+490) "add Voxpelli, subsections"
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tantek.com
edited /MySQL (+444) "split indieweb examples into primary storage, secondary storage, caching"
(view diff)
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tantek
there we go - /storage now links to /file-storage and individual database pages, and the indieweb examples for each have been moved to the specific pages
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tantek
ooh actually I still need to add more of the flat file examples to file-storage
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@kevinmarks
@Pinboard put it on a server and you're almost indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/516438918078554112)
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@Pinboard
Just type your friend’s names into a textfile and open it in your browser. Sustainable, local, indie, DIY social networking at its finest
(twitter.com/_/status/516434288867160066)
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GWG
Hmm....the Pinboard developer, whose name escapes me, is a real character
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KevinMarks_
He is good fun
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GWG
KevinMarks_: That part I remembered. I was trying to remember how to spell his last name.
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GWG
KevinMarks_: I signed up for Pinboard. I like minimalism.
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GWG
Of course, now I have 31,000 bookmarks and I do little with them.
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GWG
Which begs an Indieweb solution.
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GWG
But I'm not there yet
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KevinMarks_
We had a fun chat about social network standards a few years ago http://tummelvision.tv/2011/12/30/tummelvision-91-maciej-ceglowski-of-pinboard/
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KartikPrabhu
GWG: having too many bookmarks is a human problem not a tech problem
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KevinMarks_
Ceglowski
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GWG
KartikPrabhu: Curation is an issue.
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KartikPrabhu
yup again a human issue
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KartikPrabhu
like more technology can't solve "i follow too many people"
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KartikPrabhu
it is tempting to think that technology (indieweb) can solve all of these, but i don't think it can
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GWG
KartikPrabhu: I have that problem to
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GWG
too
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GWG
KartikPrabhu: The problem I think that can be solved isn't the one you are implying
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GWG
And possibly not the one I'm implying.
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GWG
The issue is they live in there and I do nothing with them.
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GWG
An Indieweb solution would have me doing something with them.
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KartikPrabhu
like what?
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GWG
I've never gotten into Pinboard as a social service. I use it as a searchable link archive
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GWG
KartikPrabhu: Sharing with others, for one?
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KartikPrabhu
you can still delete them no?
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GWG
What if I need one?
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KartikPrabhu
GWG: if you think all your bookmarks are overwhelmingly too many, why would they be useful to others?
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KartikPrabhu
a curated list would be more useful
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KartikPrabhu
but you can curate in a simple text file
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KartikPrabhu
or on paper actually.
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KartikPrabhu
but yeah don't let my cynicism stop you
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GWG
KartikPrabhu: I meant as a new workflow. Not reinvigorating the old bookmarks.
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GWG
Instead of sending them to Pinboard, when they are fresh and interesting, put them into my feed.
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tantek
that's what adactio does
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GWG
Don't many people?
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GWG
Isn't that really popular in some forums?
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KartikPrabhu
he posts links
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KartikPrabhu
bookmarks to me mean "this is interesting enough to save for future revisiting"
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tantek
they are the same
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tantek
since by posting he is saving
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tantek
and can even search them
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KartikPrabhu
does not solve the "there are too many things in my bookmarks" problem
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KartikPrabhu
I can search in a text file too
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GWG
I'm saying I could do both too if I wanted to.
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GWG
KartikPrabhu: Are you warning me I may annoy my friends and family?
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GWG
And those who watch my feed?
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KartikPrabhu
no. I am saying it does not solve *your* problem of having too many bookmarks
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KartikPrabhu
in a feed bookmarks disappear after a while
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KartikPrabhu
has been really riled up about "this new tech will solve all my problems" talk everywhere
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GWG
KartikPrabhu: New tech won't solve all my problems
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GWG
KartikPrabhu: New tech may change my problems
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tantek
Mo tech, mo problems ;)
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KartikPrabhu
<shrug> good then. don't let me stop you
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GWG
KartikPrabhu: New tech is only part of a solution, not the solution by itself.
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KartikPrabhu
yes that is what I am saying
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KartikPrabhu
indieweb won't make me a better bookmarker
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GWG
So...Problem: I hoard bookmarks without doing anything with them.
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GWG
Possible Solution: Do something with them
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GWG
Also: Stop Hoarding them
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KartikPrabhu
don't know indieweb solves the last bit
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GWG
The Also or the Possible Solution?
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GWG
KartikPrabhu: It doesn't solve the hoarding. But baby steps
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KartikPrabhu
indieweb will give you the ability to hoard and share more bookmarks on your own site
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GWG
KartikPrabhu: Which accomplishes the goal of engaging in a dialogue about interesting topics of the day.
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KartikPrabhu
don't need a bookmark for that. a simple post will do
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@sovryntech
Don't let the smartphone put an end to the #PCrevolution. The revolution hasn't ended. #StopTheCloud #GoLocal #ClientSide4Life #OwnYourData
(twitter.com/_/status/516444706012540929)
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GWG
KartikPrabhu: I recently redefined Bookmark on my site as the equivalent of Sharing a Link to an article, with or without comment, in other venues.
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KartikPrabhu
there we go "PC will solve the own you own data" problem ^^
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KartikPrabhu
GWG: if that is what you want "bookmark" to be then sure
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GWG
Well, someone told me Share was too generic.
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GWG
I still haven't figured out Like
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GWG
Or Favorite.
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GWG
And what it means to me
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KartikPrabhu
I take all of these to mean the actual English meaning
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KartikPrabhu
stops himself looking for an online dictionary
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GWG
The wiki implies Like is 'compliments' to the original post/poster and Favorite is special to the favoring party.
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KartikPrabhu
<shrug> I haven't been following the wiki definitions if they conflict with mine
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GWG
KartikPrabhu: I can't figure out what my definitions are.
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KevinMarks_
I use pinboard as a PESESTAS target for bookmarks from twitter etc
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GWG
I just realized this week that I'm going to define bookmark as "I find this interesting enough to note."
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GWG
Which is a very weak definition.
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KartikPrabhu
if it suits your use, who cares if it is "weak"
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KartikPrabhu
this is not math
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GWG
Well, I am thinking of adopting Favorite the way acegiak does, to indicate my interests.
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GWG
KartikPrabhu: I overthink everything.
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GWG
Which is good and bad.
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tantek.com
edited /file-storage (+1352) "add a few examples from /storage, why, how"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /file-storage (+14) "/* See Also */ storge"
(view diff)
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GWG
KartikPrabhu: Either way, I'm scratching itches. I may have to rescratch many times before I get it to my satisfaction
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tantek
quite a few flat file storage users here. looks almost split 50/50 with db users.
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tantek
time to document that split up front on database-antipattern
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GWG
tantek, do you have any thoughts on differing definitions of terms like bookmark, like, and favorite?
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tantek
what is a bookmark?
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Loqi
A bookmark (or linkblog) is a post that is typically comprised of a URL and optional text accompanying it http://indiewebcamp.com/bookmark
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tantek
what is a like?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "like" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=like
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tantek
darn MySQL stopwords :P
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tantek
what is a favorite
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Loqi
A favorite is a common webaction on many silos (e.g http://indiewebcamp.com/favorite
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tantek
hey that's not useful
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tantek
bitten by e.g. again
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GWG
I've been staring at it for a bit now.
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tantek.com
edited /favorite (-26) "fix dfn, shorten description"
(view diff)
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: since you updated favourite, what is the diff. between bookmark and favourite apart from presentation. As in the intent?
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tantek.com
edited /favorite (+85) "emojicon"
(view diff)
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KevinMarks
The different valence of star vs heart is tricky with favourite/like
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tantek
KevinMarks: valence? what do electrons have to do with it?
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GWG
KevinMarks: Where are the yellow moons and the green clovers?
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tantek
anyone know how to just block all *.google.com 3rd party embeds? I'm getting tired of Google server slowness / bad latency slowing down page loads across the web. just want to block the entirety of all *.google.com embedding of any form
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tantek
nice - actual data on "heart" icon having more engagement than "star"
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: google servers have bad latency! what hope is there for individual servers
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KartikPrabhu
or other cdns
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KevinMarks
You could use a hosts file, but you'd need to enumerate the google hosted subdomains
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: google's *embedding* servers
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tantek
they don't care about other people pages being slow
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tantek
only their own
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tantek
only *some* of their own
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KevinMarks
They used to.
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tantek
e.g. G+ is still slow as a brick
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neuro`
Good mognint
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KartikPrabhu
in my experiece G+ is faster then Twitter's JS loading
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KartikPrabhu
good mognint neuro`
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KevinMarks
There is an internal market for server resources. Maybe they have tweaked it against the public facing things
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tantek
I'd love to come up with shared block list for embedded slow things
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tantek
like AdBlock, but SlowBlock
caseorganic joined the channel
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KevinMarks
Or maybe they only test in chrome using spdy now
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tantek
developers embed so much crap from Google. JQuery, Fonts, Analytics etc.
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KevinMarks
The jquery+fonts should give cross-site caching
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KevinMarks
That's the theory
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KevinMarks
Analytics won't, clearly
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tantek
yeah the theory. I'm so tired of it I just want to block it all.
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KartikPrabhu
i use google fonts all the time, and they cache well
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GWG
tantek: There is only so much you can do in a day
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neuro`
tantek: use addons like ghostery to block everything that's not from the site you're visiting.
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neuro`
Had some nasty surprises when the CSS is on a CDN
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tantek
from KevinMarks's fastcodesign link
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tantek
"This might seem like a minor detail, but as any good engineer will tell you, speed equals engagement. "
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: would you suggest serving all fonts from my own server?
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TysonBrooks
Anyone around tried to install withknown in a sub-folder? I'm having issues.
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acegiak
So last night I rewrote my brainstorming engine and, thinking of the whole antipattern controversy, realised I didn't need a database for this project
jjuran, cweiske, fmarier, ShaneHudson and fabiok joined the channel
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colintedford.com
edited /User:Colintedford.com (+90) "/* For now */ forgot to cross out item, added "redo rel=me""
(view diff)
j12t, petermolnar, friedcell, loic_m and KevinMarks__ joined the channel
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petermolnar
good morning indieweb
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KevinMarks__
morning peter
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neuro`
Good morning Peter and Kevin.
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@petermolnar
RT @krynsky: Forget Ello. We need to support #indieweb friendly apps that are open source, de-centralized & can be self-hosted like @withkn
(twitter.com/_/status/516516259689951232)
j12t, loic_m, alexhartley, jschweinsberg, PierreO, ShaneHudson and RichardLitt joined the channel
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ben_thatmust
morning all
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alanpearce
Morning Ben
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haystack.co.uk
created /User:Haystack.co.uk (+86) "A stub page for Christian Wach"
(view diff)
eschnou and Mark87 joined the channel
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Mark87
people using flat files, how do you deal with images for posts that include them?
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petermolnar
I'd check Grav for that, it's doing really well on that part
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Mark87
what is grav?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "grav" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=grav
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Mark87
thanks, ill check it out
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petermolnar.eu
created /grav (+298) "adding grav entry"
(view diff)
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Mark87
im very nonseriously considering embedding images in the html in base64
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petermolnar
I'd not use that for generic images
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petermolnar
for css background, sprites, yes, not for large, photo-like pictures
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Mark87
my only thought is that since what i'm developing has longevity as one of its core goals, what could be more time-safe than embedding the images?
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Mark87
over time who knows what could happen to the images. maybe they get separated somehow over moves and copies over the years
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petermolnar
that's a valid approach
scor, eburcat, wolftune, eburcat_, PierreO1, verdi_, ShaneHudson, danlyke, Haxxa, elima, modem, gr0k, reedstrm and eschnou joined the channel
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ben_thatmustbeme
should be interesting, my first RSVP post
ShaneHudson joined the channel
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ben_thatmustbeme
looks like it went out fine.
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reedstrm
ben_thatmustbeme: so that stanza for you in the guest list was autogenerated from your RSVP post?
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ben_thatmustbeme
no, I already had that entered from logging in. I don't know how that page is supposed to handle an RSVP webmention
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cweiske
I doubt that the wiki handles rsvps
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ben_thatmustbeme
it says to rsvp to the page. It may be doing de-duplication as it saw i was already listed
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ben_thatmustbeme
that would be pretty cool
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ben_thatmustbeme
my micropub client is getting a bit cluttered now though.
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ben_thatmustbeme
i may have to do some clean-up
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ben_thatmustbeme
plus it should be pretty simple to wrap those files in their own separate project, so anyone can use it.
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snarfed
morning all
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gRegor`
Morning, snarfed
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gregorlove.com
edited /Main_Page (-7) "/* Homebrew Website Club */ next HWC"
(view diff)
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snarfed
ooh, a glimpse of known's native comment form in the wild: http://tysonbrooks.net/2014/just-figured-out-a-way-to-post-new-things-to
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TysonBrooks
snarfed: how'd you discover that? :)
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@hackr
die indieweb-crowd lässt l. schon wieder jede mögliche lektion aus ello aus; langsam verl. ich die hoffnung (nicht ans indie, an die crowd)
(twitter.com/_/status/516619823900786688)
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@gsf747
@d6 Reminded me of the IndieWeb and similar movements to decentralize.
(twitter.com/_/status/516623591979245569)
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TysonBrooks
First time into the chat, was hoping that it was normally active. SO makes me feel better hearing your comment about quiet day.
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ShaneHudson
Yeah it is usually very active. Take a look at the logs :) https://indiewebcamp.com/IRC#Logs (Todays: https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-09-29)
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@gRegorLove
@itsscottwilder Just saw your last blog comment. Webmentions and local comments are displayed interleaved together on my blog posts.
(twitter.com/_/status/516624330600370177)
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@gRegorLove
@itsscottwilder The “Send a Response” form is to manually send a webmention, if someone’s site doesn’t support sending them yet.
(twitter.com/_/status/516624883342520321)
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TysonBrooks
I'm getting the feeling that there are also bots in here like Loqi
#
Loqi
woot!
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gRegor`
Hey, TysonBrooks. Welcome.
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ShaneHudson
TysonBrooks: Yeah Loqi is a very useful bot
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TysonBrooks
Whats it written in?
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TysonBrooks
Hey gRegor` Thanks for the welcome.
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gRegor`
Looks like you're self-hosting Known? Sweet.
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TysonBrooks
Ya, took some doing... had a few plugins not running on my company server but I got it working.
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TysonBrooks
Wish I could host it in a sub folder
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TysonBrooks
but apperently its not working like that yet.
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gRegor`
and PHP, I guess
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petermolnar
what is Loqi?
#
Loqi
Loqi is a friendly and useful bot present in the #indiewebcamp IRC channel and other channels http://indiewebcamp.com/Loqi
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ShaneHudson
TysonBrooks: How are you finding Known?
#
TysonBrooks
I actually found it through TWiT
#
TysonBrooks
like many have right now I'll bet.
#
TysonBrooks
Caught a glimps of it on leoville.net while leo was doing the radio show on Sunday.
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ShaneHudson
Ah nice! I meant to say what do you think of it? Are you enjoying it?
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TysonBrooks
I've just done one post with it so far. I'd like to host a number of them. I've even thought about making an installer so when someone purchases hosting through me that they could get it auto installed onto their own accounts.
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TysonBrooks
I run a website hosting company.
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TysonBrooks
But for starters I'd like to host at least two instances one for my business site to use it for the socail media stream, a hub of communications from the two popular networks (Facebook & Twitter). Then another one for my personal uses. The personal one is the one launched right now.
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ShaneHudson
That sounds like a very good idea
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TysonBrooks
I seen Ben commenting to Bluehost to see if they'd work with him on doing an easy installer. Which is what got me thinking about it. If I can make it work I might contact him and show him what I've worked out.
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ShaneHudson
Definitely. He often drops by on here (although less since working on Known) so I'm sure he would be willing to talk about it.
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tantek.com
edited /favorite (+106) "emojicon"
(view diff)
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TysonBrooks
Ya, I noticed him and erin dont use known that much, at least in the way I thought they'd be using it.
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TysonBrooks
I like the idea of using it as a communication hub and answer customers and clients about real time problems right from known.
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danlyke
ben is also super responsive to Known issues on Twitter.
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TysonBrooks
no matter if they are on twitter or facebook.
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ShaneHudson
Ben uses Known at http://werd.io/ he hasn't posted in a while but he has been using it actively long before Known even became a thing :)
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ShaneHudson
But yes, using it for answering problems sounds like a nice idea
ShaneHud_, alexhartley, alanpearce and alexhart_ joined the channel
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tantek.com
edited /like (+543) "Icon considerations, Star vs Heart, with data/citation on heart encouraging more interaction"
(view diff)
alexhar__ joined the channel
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ben_thatmustbeme
hey TysonBrooks, Welcome
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tantek
ShaneHudson: benwerd posts and werd.io all the time, just pick "All content" from the "Filter content" menu at the top. E.g. a note 6 minutes ago!
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ben_thatmustbeme
Yeah, definitely a lot more active at times
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ShaneHudson
Ah of course (stupid me)!
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davidmead
has anyone used freedom.io to port Instagram content to a WP self-hosted blog?
alexhartley and petermolnar joined the channel
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tantek
what is gitpub?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "gitpub" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=gitpub
#
tantek
what is jekyll?
erlehmann and caseorganic joined the channel
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erlehmann
hey
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erlehmann
does anyone here have examples of minimal flat file blog systems?
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erlehmann
i am using git to track metadata
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tantek.com
edited /Jekyll (+59) "dfn, see also"
(view diff)
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danlyke
Mine is quickly growing beyond that, and I haven't really cleaned it up for publication, but if you're into C++ the system currently running Flutterby.net is at https://github.com/danlyke/FlutterbyNetCPP (and personal repos if you prefer to not participate in the Github silo)
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erlehmann
danlyke mine is just shell scripts. http://news.dieweltistgarnichtso.net
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tantek.com
edited /file-storage (+12) "/* Bret C. */ linky linky"
(view diff)
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erlehmann
i thought about just generating a feed from my flat files, since i already have an appropriate xslt stylesheet
ngoldman joined the channel
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erlehmann
http://news.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/hn2.xsl creates a web page from an atom feed
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erlehmann
so why not use that for all content, i thought
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erlehmann
is there some drawback?
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gregorlove.com
created /GitPub (+134) "stub for Bret to expand. :)"
(view diff)
#
gregorlove.com
created /gitpub (+20) "r"
(view diff)
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reedstrm
what is reedstrm
#
Loqi
Ross Reedstrom (reedstrm most places) is a sysadmin and developer in the area of Open Education Resources http://indiewebcamp.com/reedstrm
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gRegor`
bret: Can you expand this? http://indiewebcamp.com/GitPub
#
reedstrm
what is jekyll
#
Loqi
Jekyll is Ruby software that helps you create "Simple, blog-aware, static sites" suitable for static domain hosting http://indiewebcamp.com/Jekyll
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gRegor`
what is gitpub
#
Loqi
GitPub is a micropub endpoint to go from micropub client to git repository http://indiewebcamp.com/GitPub
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reedstrm
hehe -someone beat me to the <dfn> tag :-)
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erlehmann
intredasting
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tantek.com
edited /file-storage (+19) "/* Rascul */ uses crash"
(view diff)
#
tantek
what is crash?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "crash" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=crash
#
erlehmann
how do you people store Atom ids in flat file backends?
#
erlehmann
what is goatse
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "goatse" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=goatse
#
erlehmann
:----DDDDD
#
erlehmann
i see
#
sparverius
what is love
#
erlehmann
lel
#
erlehmann
what is feed reader
#
Loqi
A feed reader is an application (local or on the web, e.g http://indiewebcamp.com/feed_reader
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erlehmann
fine
#
tantek
erlehmann: re: so why not use that for all content, is there some drawback? [to Atom] - answer: yes, it's easier to write posts in HTML than Atom. Plus then you're done with having something browser viewable/editable.
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tantek.com
edited /feed_reader (-5) "-e.g. in dfn"
(view diff)
#
tantek
what is a feed reader?
#
Loqi
A feed reader is an application (local or on the web, like the defunkt Google Reader) that subscribes to feeds (typically legacy Atom & RSS) and presents them in an interface for reading http://indiewebcamp.com/feed_reader
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erlehmann
tantek i currently write posts in html, plain text / whatever and generate an atom file from the information in the git repo.
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tantek
re: how do you people store Atom ids in flat file backends? Not sure anyone needs Atom ids. We do store permalinks.
#
tantek
erlehmann: that makes much more sense
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erlehmann
i need atom ids because the urls can change
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erlehmann
so the question is just “is there a drawback to just publishing the atom file and having a stylesheet for it?”
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tantek
I think that's an iilusion of utility.
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tantek
It assumes anyone cares / does anything with Atom IDs
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erlehmann
yeah, feed readers do. i already had several occasions where it was useful to have a not-changing id.
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tantek
erlehmann: "drawback to just publishing the atom file" - yes, all the drawbacks to serving XML
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erlehmann
like, whenever i redirect stuff
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erlehmann
if the id does not change, everything is fine
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tantek
redirects don't count as broken URLs
#
tantek
if you're redirecting, you're fine
#
tantek
clients are supposed to handle that
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erlehmann
if the id *does* change, that means that the reader has two articles or the article becomes unread
#
erlehmann
in the feed
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erlehmann
also, reposting content
#
tantek
I think most folks just use their permalink as their atom ID
fmarier joined the channel
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tantek
in practice, /reposts have their own permalinks, deliberately
#
tantek
the atom view of the world is kind of dying, ignored by social networks etc.
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erlehmann
yeah, but if you use the permalink then redirects mean everything becomes unread or duplicated
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tantek
that's a reader bug if it's treating redirects that way
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erlehmann
no not redirects
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erlehmann
i redirect the url. but if the id of the entry changes, that means the reader cannot know it is the same entry.
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tantek
then hold onto the original permalink
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tantek
no need for any notion of abstract ID
petermolnar joined the channel
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erlehmann
yeah then the question becomes again where to store it
#
erlehmann
currently i have it in a git annotation
#
erlehmann
which is not very simple
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tantek
I've seen "originally published at: … " in posts
#
tantek
that's one way
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erlehmann
maybe for each file, having a file.id is not something bad (in addition to having a file.atom)
#
tantek
!tell Mark87 do you have a name for your Editor & Viewer software?
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
tantek
! tell rascul could you start a stub article for your project "crash"? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=crash&action=edit&redlink=1
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tantek
!tell rascul could you start a stub article for your project "crash"? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=crash&action=edit&redlink=1
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
scor joined the channel
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erlehmann
tantek do you know of blog software with MIME storage backends? after all, everyone holds on to their emails and can edit them from every device
#
bret
Ya gRegor` I can :)
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tantek
I don't know anyone that holds onto all their emails on every device, and can edit them on every device (especially mobile)
elima joined the channel
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erlehmann
i use offlineimap and notmuch!
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tantek
also if you know of any good approach to viewing, browsing, searching local mbox files, please say so - I asked earlier here.
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ben_thatmustbeme
yeah, plus editing e-mails isn't really possible for most clients
scor joined the channel
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finchd
tantek: mailpile.is looks promising
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tantek.com
edited /file-storage (+37) "/* Barnaby Walters */ uses Taproot"
(view diff)
#
erlehmann
tantek i use maildir and notmuch. it has google-mail-like tagging, thread view and stuff. mbox is icky, isn't it?
#
tantek
mbox is icky but I don't know of a better single file mail archive format :/
#
erlehmann
why does it have to be single file?
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tantek
what is Nucleus?
#
Loqi
Nucleus is an open source CMS that runs on PHP and MySQL http://indiewebcamp.com/Nucleus
#
ben_thatmustbeme
I'm thinking I will investigate just having posts rendered out to a storage folder on updates. Not sure I want to go fully flat file for storage, but rendering the data thats nice to keep around is probably a good idea
#
tantek
what is Nucleus?
#
Loqi
Nucleus is an open source CMS that runs on PHP and MySQL http://indiewebcamp.com/Nucleus
#
erlehmann
ben_thatmust what is a reason against fully flat file?
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ben_thatmustbeme
well searching and sorting for one. unless i start storing index files as well, but i feel like that might be going too far
#
tantek
!tell luxagraf what is the name of the software you use to run your site?
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
tantek
!tell shaners what is the name of the software you use to run your site?
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
#
ben_thatmustbeme
then i start having to manage my own indexes and such, which gets rather messy. Plus indexes aren't something i care about storing for the future. its only content. So just redering out bodies of posts, etc, is really all I care about
#
tantek
!tell danlyke what is the name of the software you use to run your site?
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
erlehmann
ben_thatmust indexes?
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ben_thatmustbeme
i guess i somewhat already do this, as my queries are cached out to disk
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ben_thatmustbeme
erlehmann, yes, if I want to grab only articles, if I don't want to loop through all files on disk, i need some list of entries by type
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erlehmann
ah
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ben_thatmustbeme
if i organized on disk by type, then i'd have the same issue grabbing something by date, etc
#
ben_thatmustbeme
right now I store everything in the DB, but since queries are much slower than disk access, I have timestamped caches of search results in files on disk. As long as I make sure that everything that could possibly effect those cached queries is set to update the cache, I could drop the requirement that queries have a finite cache time. and just keep then indefinitely.
#
tantek.com
edited /database-antipattern (+714) "start documenting community split up front"
(view diff)
#
erlehmann
ben_thatmust i use git. it is reasonably fast
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GWG
ben_thatmustbeme: Were you looking for me?
#
tantek
!tell tommorris does /Ferocity use flat files for storage or a database? If a database, which one?
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
ben.thatmustbe.me
edited /database-antipattern (+14) "cast another tot he side of database"
(view diff)
#
ben_thatmustbeme
GWG, no, you had just joined, i was saying hello
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GWG
My bouncer must have lost the connection
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tantek.com
edited /OpenBlog (+8) "linky"
(view diff)
#
tantek
ben_thatmustbeme: could you add yourself to https://indiewebcamp.com/MySQL#IndieWeb_Examples also?
#
GWG
Hello tantek
#
GWG
ben_thatmustbeme, how is your site coming? I think I saw micropub
#
gregorlove.com
edited /database-antipattern (+17) "/* community split */ +ProcessWire"
(view diff)
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ben.thatmustbe.me
edited /MySQL (+194) "add openblog"
(view diff)
#
ben_thatmustbeme
GWG, its good, ben.thatmustbe.me/new for the current MP client
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ben_thatmustbeme
I need to clean up a lot of it. Just started to add ability to add location and such
#
ben_thatmustbeme
i feel like as IWCCambridge gets closer I am doing more and more on openblog
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GWG
I am trying to do both of those things. But it is a ways off.
#
GWG
ben_thatmustbeme, will I see you on the feed?
#
ben_thatmustbeme
GWG: huh? no, it will post as whoever you log in as, and looks up your MP endpoint
ShaneHudson joined the channel
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GWG
On the IWC talky video feed
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ben_thatmustbeme
oh, i have no idea
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ben_thatmustbeme
GWG, trying to do both what things? Micropub and adding location info?
#
GWG
ben_thatmustbeme: Yes
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ben_thatmustbeme
right now i'm trying to get the MP client developed enough where I can completely throw away the admin interface. I basically have abandoned it already
#
gregorlove.com
edited /MySQL (+363) "/* Gregor Morrill */ regarding database-antipattern"
(view diff)
#
ben_thatmustbeme
there may be a few things that will not be done with MP, like editing rel=me links and such, those may need a minor interface, and I'm hesitant to have those accessed by indieauth
#
kylewm.com
edited /database-antipattern (+31) "/* community split */ add Publify and Homesteading to database side"
(view diff)
#
ben_thatmustbeme
since you could in theory lock yourself out by editing mistakes there
#
GWG
ben_thatmustbeme I want to abandon it for notes. For articles the post editor in WordPress is great.
#
GWG
it being the admin UI
#
kylewm
tantek: thank you for documenting the dissent on /database-antipattern. I think you handled it nicely
#
tantek
gRegor`: thanks for adding the longevity info - since 2002
#
gRegor`
np. Going to update the community split to link to mysql and postgresql
#
gRegor`
(subsections)
#
tantek
kylewm: no problem. we should document the current state of the community, whatever that is, in addition to past experiences and future aspirations.
#
tantek
gRegor`: would be better to have those individual projects have the opinions stated, rather than on the MySQL and PostgreSQL pages
#
gRegor`
You mean like on /Nucleus instead of /MySQL?
#
tantek
right
#
tantek
which is why I asked shaners and luxagraf to document their software
#
ben_thatmustbeme
hmm, wonder if I can just write a driver to give openblog users the option to use file storage
#
ben_thatmustbeme
it has drivers to swap between various DB backends already
#
ben_thatmustbeme
nothing says I can't do that without them, just need to be able to parse SQL
#
tantek
gRegor`: my goal was to flatten the lists - just projects, not by DB or whatever
#
tantek
or by github pages vs. heroku
#
gRegor`
Makes sense.
#
gRegor`
Think "Regarding database-antipattern" should be a subheading on the individual project page then?
#
tommorris
tantek: db - Postgres
#
Loqi
tommorris: tantek left you a message 19 minutes ago: does /Ferocity use flat files for storage or a database? If a database, which one?
#
tantek
gRegor`: not sure it is that important to each project
#
tantek
to be deserving of a subhead
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kylewm
gRegor`: mine is essentially that https://indiewebcamp.com/Red_Wind#Datastore
#
tantek
perhaps include it as part of a project design or internals section
#
tantek
and I document flat file usage as part of https://indiewebcamp.com/Falcon#Storage_format
#
gRegor`
Ah
#
tantek
so yes, document how your project does its Datastore / Storage format (take your pick) and add any additional opinions there that informed your design
#
gRegor`
Hm. I kind of like being able to skim down /PostgreSQL and read the opinions on database-antipattern though
#
gRegor`
Guess they can remain there and on the project pages, of course.
#
tantek
sure - we can leave that up to the individual project maintainers
#
tantek
though in the example of /PostgreSQL - the opinions are offered detached from a particular project
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tantek
which I don't expect to see a lot of
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tantek
seems odd to have an opinion about data storage, backed by your implementation, but then not name your implementation
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@almereyda
RT @kirilind: someone should tell all those people jumping to #ello that @withknown is what they're actually looking for :-) #ownyourdata #…
(twitter.com/_/status/516653362625134592)
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tantek
gRegor`: are you using Nucleus or ProcessWire currently?
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KartikPrabhu
not sue Bundle is on the database side :)
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KartikPrabhu
s/sue/sure
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Loqi
KartikPrabhu meant to say: not sure Bundle is on the database side :)
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tantek
but it does use databases for storage right?
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: for some. articles are stored as HTML
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: shaners' site runs Homesteading
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: so Bundle is a mix! interesting
#
KartikPrabhu
yes :) because I author articles in HTML in my text editor
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: shaners explicitly says on the PostgreSQL that his site and homesteading are different
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tantek
"Homesteading" is still aspirational
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: yes saw details now
#
KartikPrabhu
yeah read that
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gRegor`
tantek: Nucleus. I'll update the wiki once I move to ProcessWire. It will be a while, still.
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tantek.com
edited /ProcessWire (+230) "note current vs considering, details uses MySQL (guessing), see also"
(view diff)
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gRegor`
I'm working on the webmention plugin for ProcessWire. Once that's stable, I'll start migrating.
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tantek
neat! maybe add that to http://indiewebcamp.com/ProcessWire#Gregor_Morrill in case others might be considering it
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mowens.com
edited /MongoDB (+34) "/* IndieWeb Examples */"
(view diff)
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gregorlove.com
edited /ProcessWire (+91) "/* Gregor Morrill */"
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mowens.com
edited /database-antipattern (+14) "/* community split */"
(view diff)
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gregorlove.com
edited /User:Gregorlove.com (-2) "/* My site */"
(view diff)
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mko
So... on the database-antipattern, most of those arguments don't apply to MongoDB since MongoDB is actually storing everything as .bson files on the file system. It is technically a "flat file representation" of the files. My entire MongoDB dump looks like nothing but JSON representations of h-entry almost identical to that which pin13.net spits out (but currently without all the arrays for things that I know are only going to ever be a
#
mko
single value).
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ben.thatmustbe.me
edited /OpenBlog (+2210) "giving some much needed /openblog updates"
(view diff)
#
@nicolascluz
Mon site est presque compatible #IndieWeb. Mon premier vrai test http://mabulledu.net/zz7Xq7h
(twitter.com/_/status/516659646992367616)
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mko
tantek: I almost feel like the database-antipattern discussion has three different classifications, not two. file-storage, database, and hybrid.
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ben.thatmustbe.me
edited /OpenBlog (+0) "/* Planned Features */ minor error"
(view diff)
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KartikPrabhu
mko: what's hybrid?
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gRegor`
Don't forget quantum-storage
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KartikPrabhu
mko: in mongodb can you open the files in a text editor and read them?
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tantek.com
edited /MongoDB (+27) "subhead"
(view diff)
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ben.thatmustbe.me
edited /User:Ben.thatmustbe.me (+94) "just updating my todo list"
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gRegor`
I think Facebook changed something regarding the image preview when you put a URL in your status. Instead of my logo, it just picked up the avatar of one of the comments first.
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tantek.com
created /Template:mko (+139) "since I used it"
(view diff)
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mko
KartikPrabhu: If you've got it configured properly.
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gRegor`
I'm using their silly og:image meta property
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KartikPrabhu
well then that is a db-tax no? :P
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gRegor`
Yes, I'll document this on the wiki.
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ben_thatmustbeme
gRegor` i had that happen at one point too, but realized I was missing the og:image meta tag
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tantek
you shouldn't have to use og:image to make it work
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tantek
just need an image big enough
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tantek
and it will auto-detect it for a /link-preview
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Loqi
definitely
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gRegor`
In the past it has picked up my header image first, sometimes. Most of the time it's picked up my og:image
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gRegor`
No idea why it picked up someone's avatar from my comments section this time, though.
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ben_thatmustbeme
I don't actually show my photo in the page through, so I needed the og:image bit
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gRegor`
runs more tests
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gRegor`
I don't either, ben. It's the same image as my apple-touch-image
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tantek.com
edited /database-antipattern (+50) "/* Does this mean I can’t have a dynamic site? */ shorten"
(view diff)
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gRegor`
tantek: What is "big enough"? Is this documented somewhere?
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ben_thatmustbeme
ah yeah, i need to create those, I always forget what the filename apple looks for is
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gRegor`
ben_thatmustbeme: I use rel=apple-touch-icon
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KevinMarks__
it's documented on facebook's page, yes
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danlyke
KevinMarks, interesting article, especially since I just got to the "WordPress Plugins" section, and how they block WordPress clients because of botnets using Pingbacks for "sustained attacks", and thought about WebMention.
#
KartikPrabhu
gRegor`: looks like we don't have a page for "big enough" ;)
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Loqi
danlyke: tantek left you a message 1 hour, 8 minutes ago: what is the name of the software you use to run your site?
#
gRegor`
Lulz, KartikPrabhu
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KevinMarks__
right dan, interesting on that front too -
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gRegor`
KevinMarks: nooo, don't make me look at FB documentation. ;)
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mko
KartikPrabhu: No argument there. It counts as db-tax, but I would argue that the file-storage pattern has just as many (if not more) "taxes" for long-term usability. Assuming you improve the display or methods of access of your content over time, it's very possible you would need to go back and reformat all of your files to support these new displays or methods of access.
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gRegor`
What is DBA tax?
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Loqi
The database antipattern is the use of a database for primary long-term storage of posts and other personal content (like on an indieweb site), and is an anti-pattern due to the additional maintenance costs, uninspectability, platform-dependence, and long-term fragility of databases and their storage files http://indiewebcamp.com/DBA_tax
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tantek.com
edited /database-antipattern (+116) "/* Are databases required for a dynamic site */ shorten more, note Falcon as real world example"
(view diff)
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danlyke
tantek, don't have any good name, internally it's "fby", in the svn repo it's FlutterbyNetCPP, if I'm going to distribute it I really need to package it differently from "git commit -a; git push github master".
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KartikPrabhu
mko: unlikely if they are stored as HTML anyway
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KartikPrabhu
anyway...
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danlyke
tantek also going to split the git repo into a general purpose library and the blog/wiki portion shortly.
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ben_thatmustbeme
So those that sore in files, how do you store comments? as a separate file for each, one comments file per post, or at the end of the file they are commenting on?
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tantek
but not what their heuristics actually display
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tantek
so it's borderline useless as a validator
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tantek
same with Google's rich snippets validators, have to wait to be blessed, and even then you have no idea what markup they'll actually bother to do anything with.
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KevinMarks__
it does tell you what they found
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tantek
like you have no idea if your Volcano will show up with a fax machine in its rich snippet
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KevinMarks__
it shows a preview at the bottom
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KevinMarks__
with a link to the share dialog
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KevinMarks__
so it is better than google's
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tantek.com
edited /database-antipattern (+30) "sort projects, keep only those live on actual indie web community member sites, note multiple and put those first in lists"
(view diff)
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KevinMarks__
doesn't need approval like twitter either
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TysonBrooks
KevinMarks, if you're the one who told leo about withknown, thank you!
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KevinMarks__
I did, but benwerd and erinjo came on the show too
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tantek.com
edited /file-storage (+170) "Other Independent Examples, David Baron"
(view diff)
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KevinMarks__
he's blogging his uk trip on known http://leoville.net/
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TysonBrooks
I seen it. Because of that show I loaded the software on my own personal site.
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TysonBrooks
As soon as its compatible with subdirectories I'll be using it for my business as well.
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tantek.com
edited /database-antipattern (+0) "bumping plain HTML files (multiple) to top of list as at least 2+ independents currently doing that, and some have in the past."
(view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /database-antipattern (+18) "/* community split */ the name for "plain HTML files" is typically Apache"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /database-antipattern (-3) "/* community split */ g"
(view diff)
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mko
Honestly, I think /database-antipattern is one of the most caustic disagreements in the IndieWeb. If I get some time, I'll try to further articulate why I feel that way, but the short answer is that it's an argument about plumbing that tries to shame people who disagree.
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tantek
mko - let's fix the shame parts
#
tantek
other than, why do you think it is caustic?
#
@kevinmarks
@nicksantos have you looked at including h-feed markup in medium itself? An example: http://feed.unmung.com/feed?feed=https://medium.com/feed/@nicksantos #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/516664887767232513)
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tantek
mko - fundamentally it's not an argument about plumbing, it's an argument about longevity and accessibility.
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mko
My MongoDB bson files will be around just as long and are just as easily accessible as any flat-file HTML file.
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tantek
"will be" does not match up to "have been"
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KevinMarks__
TysonBrooks: can you use a subdomain instead? I use known.kevinmarks.com
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tantek
and "bson files" have the same problems of Uninspectability, Platform trap
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tantek
browser do not view bson files. thus they are not "just as easily accessible as any flat-file HTML file."
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TysonBrooks
KevinMarks__: I would, but I would like to use my ssl cert in order to publish to foursquare
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tantek
and by accessible I also mean to independents - who don't have the time deal with extra database chores, e.g. backup etc.
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tantek
I should say, *separate* backup
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TysonBrooks
I think it was blocking me since I didn't have a https link.
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Loqi
I agree
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KevinMarks__
would unmunging ello so you can follow it with an indieweb reader be useful?
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tantek
mko, feel free to document how you see bson files working well for you on http://indiewebcamp.com/MongoDB
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tantek
at least we can start with capturing the positive
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KevinMarks__
also wonders if making unmung support 304 polling is worth it
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tantek
KevinMarks: do you have any friends who post primarily on Ello that you want to follow?
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tantek
reframes KevinMarks question from "would … it … be useful?" to "would … it … be useful to *you?" ;)
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KevinMarks__
clay shirky is posting interesting things there
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tantek
ah Clay, too bad about his WordPress install: http://indiewebcamp.com/WordPress#Maintenance_Vulnerability
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davidmead
does anyone know if freedom.io still works for extrating your instagram content?
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tantek.com
edited /Jekyll (+291) "/* Indieweb Users */ subheads"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /file-storage (+40) "/* ... add yourself ... */ many more [[Jekyll]] users"
(view diff)
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cr
fs-database are maybe less fragile and more tool-connected than noSQL/SQL stores but have their own baggage and historical cruft
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cr
luckily, people are finalyl bypassing the FS legacy with mirageOS block-device backed kv-stores etc
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tantek.com
edited /database-antipattern (+23) "more documented Jekyll flat file users than any other file storage approach"
(view diff)
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tantek
welcome cr! what's your personal site?
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cr
not much of one, https://github.com/hallwaykid/pw is the webserver i'm using
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tantek
do you have a personal domain?
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cr
trying to get some TOS-violatoin emails from the .name ppl, what should i put there
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cr
maybe some keybase.io knockoff
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cr
just as an example, POSIX only has local usernames, if you want to allow the web at-large to have UNIX-style permissions to read/write on your website, you have to build your own access-control layer
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tantek
where do you post content like blog posts on your personal domain?
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cr
my server has a special handler on /news, which so far is just aggregated/reblogged content
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@kevinmarks
@nicksantos would also love to apply your wordpress pingback experience to webmention design- join us in http://indiewebcamp.com/IRC sometime
(twitter.com/_/status/516669864694394880)
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cr
eg, i'm interested in what's going on in Boston, so ive got some files in http://src.whats-your.name/pw/conf/news/?set=dir which a cron-tab runs and i browse on http://b.whats-your.name/news/
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cr
so basically hte "planet" concept
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cr
still have to investigate this mention stuff..
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tantek
interesting use of subdomains for that stuff which is all from the same individual - I don't think we have anyone else here doing that - typically people use paths for that
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cr
in theory, it all comes back out as a feed, http://b.whats-your.name/feed
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cr
i dont really use feed-readers . any good ones to try lately?
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tantek
but not viewable on your homepage - planet style as you say
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KevinMarks__
has subdomains
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tantek
for different software right?
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tantek
KevinMarks: is that your preference? or just the way it has to work now?
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kylewm
davidmead: freedom.io should still work; if it doesn’t, snarfed would probably like to know
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tantek.com
edited /database-antipattern (-16) "/* community split */ -"
(view diff)
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davidmead
kylewm - thanks. i did ping him on twitter. I believe i entered all the correct info but it doesn’t seem to be doing anything
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snarfed
thanks tantek! will do
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KevinMarks__
it is easier and good practice with different software; I'm not religious about it either way
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tantek
KevinMarks: interesting. as I'd think from wanting to keep permalinks working, that fewer URL patterns (where stuff is posted) would be less work to maintain longer term.
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KevinMarks__
tantek: does using git to store your site count as file storage or a db?
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tantek
flat files from your perspective
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tantek
the whole thing is inspectable in the file system
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snarfed
tantek: lgtm, well written. that page has improved a lot due to all the attention. that's great!
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tantek
by double-clicking on things
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tantek
thanks snarfed - specifically seeking out contrary opinions to see if the community split is documented reasonably.
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snarfed
definitely sounds reasonable to me
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tantek
also with decision to put it right there at the top - for any future twitter storms
#
tantek
or retweets of past
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snarfed
the biggest new part i learned was the distinction between personal indie websites and larger apps/systems. i originally interpreted it as an argument as an antipattern for both, but it's clearer now that it's primarily an antipattern for the former, which i agree much more with
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tantek
snarfed - interesting. yes the intended scoping was always personal indie websites.
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tantek
that one has to maintain oneself
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notenoughneon.com
edited /file-storage (+225) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ add notenoughneon to list"
(view diff)
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@HaxingLocalhost
@Swati_THN @Viss @TechInfected My only regret would be that I couldn't do it twice to see if it happens every time
(twitter.com/_/status/516671000294211584)
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tantek.com
edited /database-antipattern (+14) "/* community split */ file storage Neonblog"
(view diff)
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KevinMarks__
the message is also that having a recoverable html version of your site is good for larger sites too
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jonnybarnes
is kylewm around?
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kylewm
jonnybarnes: I am, what’s up?
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jonnybarnes
looking at https://kylewm.com/contacts which is excellent I might add
#
jonnybarnes
was wondering how you actually store contact info on your server?
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kylewm
jonnybarnes: thanks! as of this weekend, they’re stored in the SQLite database along with everything else. there is a Contact table and a Nick table
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jonnybarnes
which just points to the first line of the logs for me
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tantek
I want the logs to support fragmentions so I can reference topics in them like this: https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-09-28##vouch
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Loqi
gives tantek the logs to support fragmentions so I can reference topics in them like this
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tantek
there's something to be said for having a topic explicit in a URL
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tantek
gives Loqi an eye-roll.
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Loqi
grabs the eye-roll.
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kylewm.com
edited /nicknames-cache (+3) "/* Discussion */ update link to IRC logs to include sub-second timing"
(view diff)
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jonnybarnes
kylewm: is your @name you give contacts ever different from their twitter handle?
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kylewm
jonnybarnes: yep, me, snarfed, bret
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jonnybarnes
kylewm: and presumably when your typing a note you type the local @name you've given a contact?
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kylewm
jonnybarnes: yep exactly. it used to be [[Full Name|Display Name]] but that was too much typing
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kylewm
particular for names with cedillas or umlauts
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jonnybarnes
I see that in your notes that's then converted into a nice h-card :)
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kylewm
yep that’s the idea, then POSSEd to twitter with the twitter-specific handle
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jonnybarnes
is your note stored as having the @name, and the h-card generated each page load, or is ot converted before its saved?
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jonnybarnes
if that question makes sense :P
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kylewm
I’m storing the raw note and converted-html both
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kylewm
the html gets re-generated on each edit
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kylewm
(though that is kind of a drag because it means i can’t change contact information and have it retroactively update older posts)
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kylewm
eventually I’ll write code to invalidate or regenerate those old posts
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KevinMarks__
interesting - noterlive uses twitter handles the same way, as a shortcut to making an hcard
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gregorlove.com
created /Tantek-ing (+611) "stub"
(view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme
haha, "tanteking"
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Loqi
nice
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gRegor`
What is tanteking?
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Loqi
Tantek-ing refers to a method of encouraging people to make edits to this wiki http://indiewebcamp.com/tanteking
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gRegor`
KartikPrabhu++ for coining it, AFAIK
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ben_thatmustbeme
i thought it was going to be saying "What's the Use Case?" to stop people in their tracks and force them to think things through again.
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Loqi
KartikPrabhu has 66 karma
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gRegor`
Hehe, yep. Certainly multiple things could fall under tantek-ing
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jonnybarnes
is there a way of forcing the wiki to https? I would have thought there would be an option in Special:Preferences but I cant find one
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gRegor`
I'm not aware of one. The MediaWiki install is rather old. Newer versions probably have it.
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ben_thatmustbeme
at one point i had started to try to migrate the mediawiki template over to support newer mediawiki version. but didn't get too far
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gRegor`
ben_thatmustbeme: I forget, was it you that started working on a MediaWiki-- jinx
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ben_thatmustbeme
didn't get too far though
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rascul
has arrived
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Loqi
rascul: tantek left you a message 2 hours, 45 minutes ago: could you start a stub article for your project "crash"? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=crash&action=edit&redlink=1
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ben_thatmustbeme
wonders if he should find a spot in the wiki to describe fully his context-tread implementation or do it as an article on his site
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davidmead
does anyone know if self-hosted WP can handle micropub’s?
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gRegor`
davidmead: It's certainly possible, though I don't know if anyone has made a micropub plugin for WP yet. I think GWG and acegiak have talked about it.
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davidmead
gRegor`: thanks. struggling through getting ownyourgram to work for me. that was the last hurdle
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davidmead
gRegor`: looks like the enpoint is the bit i keep stumbling on
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kylewm
davidmead: no micropub support for wordpress yet
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tantek
ownyourgram to WP would be cool. is anyone doing that yet?
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tantek
what is context-tread?
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ben_thatmustbeme
that would be pretty excellent
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "context-tread" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=context-tread
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davidmead
kylewm: thanks.
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kylewm
I got the impression that wordpress folks felt like micropub would be running over a lot of the smae ground as the XMLRPC API
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kylewm
soon to be JSON RPC
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ben_thatmustbeme
reply-tread that is
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davidmead
tantek: not that i’ve found. i’m struggling to get it to work
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tantek
reply-thread?
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rascul.io
created /crash (+266) "create the page"
(view diff)
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tantek
micropub is a modern replacement for XMLRPC API
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rascul
there you go tantek
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tantek
yes, micropub is intended to run over the same ground as XMLRPC - that's not an argument against micropub
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rascul
i was waiting for it to be more complete before starting the page so i could put more in it, i'll just add stuff as i go
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gregorlove.com
edited /Main_Page (+7) "/* Homebrew Website Club */ comment out London. Don't think there's been one for a while?"
(view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme
i was going to redirect context-thread to reply-thread, but is there a difference there / should there be
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ben_thatmustbeme
reply-thread sounds like thread of reply's to a post, not the thread backward of reply-contexts
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tantek.com
edited /database-antipattern (+11) "/* community split */ crash - uses flat MD files"
(view diff)
#
tantek
lmorchard - what challenges are you having with POSSE?
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lmorchard
tantek: Basically, being lazy and looking for a plugin that produces non-terrible tweets from WordPress “status” type posts
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kylewm
Bumble is flat-files too
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tantek
I have a feeling the WP folks here have an easy plugin answer to that lmorchard - cc: GWG snarfed
#
tantek
what is Bumble?
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Loqi
Bumble is a really simple markdown-based blog platform on node.js built by Adam Brault http://indiewebcamp.com/Bumble
#
lmorchard
Specifically, I just want the first 140-ish chars of this + a link http://blog.lmorchard.com/2014/09/29/how-about-this-does-this-make-a-terrible
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gregorlove.com
edited /Events (-1) "mv 9/24 HWC to past"
(view diff)
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lmorchard
(I’m sure this is a solved problem for someone)
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ben.thatmustbe.me
created /context-tread (+26) "my naming for reply-thread"
(view diff)
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gRegor`
s/tread/thread/ ^
#
tantek.com
edited /Bumble (+160) "any indie examples? see also"
(view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme
what is context-thread
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "context-thread" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=context-thread
#
gRegor`
typoed, ben :)
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tantek
kylewm: do you know anyone here who is running their site on Bumble?
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gRegor`
context-tread is the tracks your blog leaves...
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ben_thatmustbeme
what is context-thread
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Loqi
A reply thread (AKA reply chain) is a threaded list of replies, and replies to those replies, displayed under the original post, sometimes as part of a reply-context http://indiewebcamp.com/context-thread
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kylewm
tantek: garvin has been in the IRC a couple of times and Adam Brault came to IWC SF…
#
tantek
oh neat
#
tantek
what's his site?
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kylewm
sorry, wraithgar*
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tantek.com
edited /Bumble (+55) "Adam Brault"
(view diff)
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tantek
kylewm, cool. I added Adam, can you add wraithgar to http://indiewebcamp.com/Bumble#IndieWeb_Examples then?
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davidmead
gRegor` tantek kylewm: any suggestions for self-hosted systems that handle micropub as WP doesn’t?
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gRegor`
davidmead: I don't have any experience with /micropub myself
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tantek
davidmead check out IndieWeb Examples on /micropub
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gRegor`
I think most have been custom solutions indieweb participants have been working on: http://indiewebcamp.com/micropub
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davidmead
gRegor` tantek:thanks. i’ll start sorting through them :-)
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gRegor`
davidmead: Looks like there's some PHP libraries linked on there, if you're feeling adventurous in hacking it into WordPress :)
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gRegor`
kylewm's reply-context makes me think I should put placeholder images for videos in posts: https://kylewm.com/reply/2014/09/29/4/so-good-thanks-for-sharing
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gRegor`
kylewm: Does your reply-context show embedded images?
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ben.thatmustbe.me
edited /Micropub (+51) "user page link error"
(view diff)
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kylewm.com
edited /Bumble (+96) "/* Adam Brault */ add wraithgar"
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ben.thatmustbe.me
edited /Micropub (+51) "converting my user page links to user: template"
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kylewm
gRegor`: yes it does show images. does your site generate the embed automatically or are you copy pasting from youtube?
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gRegor`
pasting the iframe for now. I could put in an image that my CSS hides, though, and link it to the video.
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gRegor`
Nice updates to your layout, btw
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kylewm
thanks :)
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@mikedunn
Love the idea of these IndieWeb Wordpress bookmarklets, though I feel I need @jukesie to explain if they'd work https://snarfed.org/indieweb-press-this-bookmarklets-for-wordpress
(twitter.com/_/status/516691486813855745)
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gregorlove.com
edited /subtome (+23) "dfn, cleanup, indieweb examples section"
(view diff)
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gregorlove.com
moved /subtome to /SubToMe "capitalization"
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gRegor`
kylewm and anyone else using SubToMe, please add yourself to /SubToMe#Indieweb_Examples
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rascul.io
edited /Facebook (+76) "add link to facebook message scraper"
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lmorchard
Hmm. That’s odd.
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lmorchard
None of those tweets mention webmention, though they are ultimately in reply to the tweet where I first mentioned it
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gRegor`
lmorchard: Bridgy sends webmentions to tweets in the reply chain.
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gRegor`
So those are webmentions of this tweet: https://twitter.com/lmorchard/status/516684608357027840
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lmorchard
Yeah, seems like this channel’s in for a bit of noise if people keep replying :)
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gRegor`
No worries. We've had much worse.
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gRegor`
remembers the great /database-antipattern flood of '14
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gregorlove.com
edited /Facebook (+36) "/* Criticism */ === Image used in link preview ==="
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gregorlove.com
edited /Facebook (+376) "/* Image used in link preview */"
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gregorlove.com
edited /Facebook (+517) "/* Image used in link preview */ update: og:image has to be 200x200px. Stupid."
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gregorlove.com
edited /Facebook (+26) "/* Image used in link preview */ blockquote"
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danlyke`
digging through microformats docs and finding no love: Putting aside my loathing for WebMention right now, if I wanted to RSVP to the October 22nd Homebrew Website Club via either my RSS feed or my status update microformats feed, how would I do that?
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tantek
which microformats docs did you find no love?
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danlyke`
excellent! Thanks, tantek!
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tantek
danlyke - also an indie RSVP requires an indie Event to reply to
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tantek
and AFAIK there's no indie event posted yet for http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-10-22-homebrew-website-club
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danlyke`
yeah, tantek, I don't have the rest of the code written yet either [grin]...
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@fdevillamil
Fred Thoughts: if you’re still using Feedburner, here’s one more reason to get your feed back. #indieweb https://t37.net/if-you-haven-t-dropped-feedburner-yet-this-mind-blowing-reason-will-convince-you-to-do-it.html
(twitter.com/_/status/516701404908752896)
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tantek
danlyke - quite ok - I myself have quite the hack for posting RSVPs
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tantek
s/hack/minimal hack
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: danlyke - quite ok - I myself have quite the minimal hack for posting RSVPs
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gRegor`
tantek: "Get benwerd to do it"? :)
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gRegor`
oh oh, misread. RSVPs, not indie events
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gRegor`
danlyke`: Have you seen the conversation recently about antispam measures with webmention?
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tantek
gRegor`: that was the old method of posting indie events. the new method is "get KevinMarks to do it for SF"
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gRegor`
Re: Feedburner "But most people were actually using it as an online penis enlargement tool, displaying the subscriber counter button on their Web site." haha
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tantek
danlyke - you can always only *send* webmentions for now, and postpone receiving until there's an anti-spam approach that works for you.
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tantek
oh dear - I see neuro` has gone a bit overboard with the click-bait titling
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gRegor`
Whoa. "I was surprised to notice Feedburner was throwing a 400 Bad Request error. Despite Google guidelines promoting the use of HTTPS, Feedburner, a Google service is unable to handle it."
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tantek
gRegor`: yeah, acquisition neglect. typically precedes acquisition shutdown.
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reedstrm
just below the image: "I know I should stop using Buzzfeed like titles, but they’re so lame they’re funny."
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tantek
takes the bait and clicks.
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tantek
gRegor`: re: "enlargement tool" - should we document a "subscriber-counter-antipattern" ?
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gRegor`
Haha
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gRegor`
Mayhaps
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gRegor`
I think it's mostly gone away in recent years, though. The number-of-shares-on-silo badges are still popular, though
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tantek
gRegor`: there's TONS of "followback" spam on Twitter and Instagram
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tantek
which as far as I can tell is purely motivated by a desire to game the # of followers/subscribers visible / prominent indicator
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tantek
I feel like Kevinmarks may have written about this kind of bad stats gamification
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tantek
what is Feedburner?
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Loqi
FeedBurner is a service that aggregates feeds and provides analytics to publishers http://indiewebcamp.com/FeedBurner
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tantek.com
edited /FeedBurner (+542) "criticism, lack of https support"
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gregorlove.com
edited /FeedBurner (+150) "Indieweb examples"
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tantek.com
edited /Falcon (+17) "push TOC down to make early sections more readable"
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gregorlove.com
edited /User:Gregorlove.com (+48) "/* Interests */"
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danlyke`
tantek, my concern with WebMentions is as much that if we collectively generate an additional installed huge base of DDOS platforms (along-side Pingback), we're not doing any good. But I'll ping 'em for now. Sigh.
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tantek
danlyke, as you know I agree with your concerns. Let's still play with webmention while it's small and we can figure out UX issues before the spamhordes arrive
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danlyke`
tantek, Yeah. It's one of those "well, may as well at least manually invoke requests... for now." things.
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daf
I think part of the implicit silo bargain is that they deal with that stuff for you; control for convenience
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tantek
danlyke, I have been putting some time into thinking/designing about the webmention (expected) spam problem BTW - I'd be very interested in your thoughts on the proposed "vouch" protocol extension to webmention: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-09-28#t1411927207068
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kylewm.com
edited /SubToMe (+88) "/* Indieweb Examples */ add me!"
(view diff)
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tantek
(documented for now just on that IRC page, but I'm planning on / working on wikifying it)
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reedstrm
things deep conspiratorial thoughts about the symbiotic relationship between spammers and silo
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daf
(hello indiwebbbers!)
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reedstrm
ed services that are good at spam supression
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tantek
hello daf!
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reedstrm
has trouble hitting enter when he wants '
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daf
I just stumbled on indiewebcamp today and I'm really interested
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tantek
daf - awesome! what's your personal site?
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reedstrm
hello daf!
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daf
I have an ikiwiki instance that's in zombie mode -- http://rhydd.org
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daf
I'm probably most active on http://git.rhydd.org/ right now
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tantek
it was killed and came back to life?
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reedstrm
tantek: shambling, prolonged death-like state perhaps?
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daf
reedstrm: indeed
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danlyke`
tantek, so the notion is that I, B, have a record of C linking to A and thus don't have to retrieve C's record? Else we have a current Pingback amplification potential.
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tantek
right, wasn't trying to solve the amplification problem, just the spam one for now
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tantek
one piece at a time
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danlyke`
yeah, the spam one isn't nearly as interesting to me, that's something we have many potential filtering mechanisms for. No solutions, but email is still usable and we don't have a solution to that either.
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tantek
I don't consider email really usable any more - not for realtime notifications.
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daf
this seems sort of like a decentralised trust problem, but I think most distributed web problems are distributed trust problems
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tantek
it's a work task. I pretty much don't do it unless being paid to.
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tantek
daf - hoping to not generalize to "trust" - which I think is unnecessary for this use-case.
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tantek
that is, it's similar but not the same, nor even same scope
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daf
yeah, I don't mean the problem of making reliable "Alice trusts Bob" assertions
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daf
for general meanings of "trust"
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daf
I think trust assertions have to always be contextual
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daf
"I assert that I think this book is worth reading"
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reedstrm
The general cross-social-domains organizational problem still defaults to lowest common denominator communication: email. Just attended my kid's orchestra Parent's organization group. Everythings done via email. And I'm glad: it could be a 'join our Facebook Group' instead ...
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barnabywalters
good evening
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tantek
reedstrm - I'm seeing such LCD comms/groups switch to FB groups
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Loqi
barnabywalters: tantek left you a message on 9/28 at 6:51pm: re: "stumped as to how to implement blocking" see http://indiewebcamp.com/block
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rascul
i find fb groups to be almost unusable for any real use
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tantek
barnabywalters: also, how's your work on de-duping going? e.g. the quadruplicate comment here: https://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4Y38Ts/
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reedstrm
@tantek like I said - hasn't reached me yet, and I'll fight it with my dying breath ...
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barnabywalters
tantek: heh, yeah that’s a particularly bad example
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reedstrm
well, I'll seem dead to them, at least :-)
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daf
another way of thinking about it is that Google made linking tantamount to approval, and the rest of the web has sort of gone along with it
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danlyke`
I'm with rascul. I'm also a square dancer, and recently saw some heavy Facebook adopters in that space discover that they were losing most of their target audience when they moved to Facebook groups and Facebook-only promotion (Was actually somewhat surprised by how much they lost).
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tantek
daf - rather, Google took advantage of the fact that linking already *was* a very lightweight form of tacit approval.
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barnabywalters
RE webmention/pingback amplification — does the expiring endpoint measure documented here http://indiewebcamp.com/DDOS#Expiring_token_in_endpoint and implemented by aaronpk and myself not solve this problem?
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tantek
whereas the text-entity PhD analysts at AltaVista thumbed their noses at determining anything from markup.
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daf
Google was very very good before people started gaming it
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barnabywalters
I remember asking when we were discussing it last and not getting any particularly certain response
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tantek
danlyke - anyway - let me know when you've read through yesterday's log re: vouch and if you have any more comments / questions.
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npdoty
tantek, I think "block" and "mute" are most important for the reader side of things, rather than the publishing side. though for inline publishing/linking to comments/responses, you'd want "block" to remove responses from your own site
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tantek
npdoty: half-agreed. mute is important for the reader side. block is *more* important for the publishing side.
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tantek
block is about stopping *all* interactions someone can have/do with your published content.
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daf
tantek: on the other hand, email spam filtering went in the other direction, from overcomplicated spamassassin type stuff to simple word frequency analysis
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tantek
daf, and even the best at it (gmail?) still suck at it and I have to delete several pieces a day.
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daf
I have weeks where I don't have to delete spam, but point taken
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danlyke`
tantek, aside from the amplification attack: When we say "B vouched for A", do we mean that B has vouched for a URL that matches A's URL up to the last slash in the URL B vouched for?
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tantek
no - it's based on domain
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tantek
like CORS :)
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daf
btw, I live in Cambridge so perhaps I'll run into some of you this weekend
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npdoty
tantek, indieweb has the limitation that Block can't prevent an abusive user from responding to what you post, only to limiting where those replies are linked/syndicated/re-published
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tantek
daf are you coming to IndieWebCampCambridge?
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daf
it sort of feels more like IndieWeb is coming to me
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tantek
npdoty - limitation compared to what?
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daf
aaronpk is staying at my house
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tantek
npdoty, if you mean, anyone on the web can link to anything, sure. that's the nature of the web and HTML and URLs.
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npdoty
tantek, a silo could delete comments the abuser posted about the abused.
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npdoty
tantek, yeah, I'm not actually saying it's a problem, I agree that this is exactly how the Web should work. but it's a reason that Web approaches to abuse are likely to focus on the mute side of things
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tantek
npdoty - two examples. on Flickr, blocking someone deletes all comments they made on any of your stuff. On Twitter, blocking someone does not delete *anything*, nor does it stop their @-replies from showing up on your tweets when *others* view your tweets.
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danlyke`
tantek, one additional problem: how does C know which B to present as vouching? This'd have to be a manual thing by the poster...
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tantek
danlyke - I think you're using those letters differently from the scenarios I've described.
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tantek
A sends a webmention to B, using a (perma)link URL of C as a vouch.
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danlyke`
tantek Ugh. Got my Bs and Cs mixed: "A sends along a third parameter, let's say "voucher=" ... that includes a URL to C", this means that A has to know that B trusts C.
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danlyke`
How does A know which C to send to B?
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tantek
danlyke, not *trusts*, but just that B has *linked to* C *sometime in the past*
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npdoty
tantek, right, so for Flickr-like block functionality, an indieweb publisher can delete links to comments written by the blocked user so that they don't appear on your own site, but only readers can handle the functionality of hiding those comments for others
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npdoty
... and I'm not sure if we want to call that publisher feature (don't link to/syndicate interactions from user X, Y or Z) "block" or rather "mute"
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danlyke`
tantek, ah, okay, so A knows C has linked to A, scans B for links to a C which A knows has lined to A, and then notifies B with that C as a voucher.
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tantek
correct. and yes it is by design that this additional "work" is placed on the *sender* of the webmention. in "good actor" cases it is expected to be trivial, and in "bad actor" (spammer, abuser) cases it is expected to be non-trivial. it is designed to be *hard* or *difficult* in the abstract
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danlyke`
So A's knowledge of C actually has to be pretty comprehensive, and if we have sites knowing that much about other sites in their ring of trust, we can almost suspect that B doesn't have to poll C again to tell that C has linked to B.
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danlyke`
(Need to map out the necessary *cough* database *cough* schema for implementing such a protocol fairly robustly...)
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@ursamajor
@andrewducker @ladysisyphus wider point taken, esp re FB's new "Atlas" ad tracker upping the ante. But an #indieweb solution is my hope.
(twitter.com/_/status/516716387608571905)
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tantek
that reasoning doesn't follow, because it is conflating first and second degree
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tantek
danlyke - no database schema needed - just a user flow ;)
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tantek
A's knowledge of C does not have to be comprehensive at all - it's expect that if you are in each others second degree then it is trivial to find such a link
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tantek
to make this easier, sites software could cache (e.g. in database cache ;) ) *just* the one-degree in-bound webmention links and outbound links from content.
caseorganic joined the channel
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tantek
btw re: the assumption that silos / services are good at spam suppression - inconsistent and varies by silo. twitter is bad at it, per https://twitter.com/search?f=realtime&q=%40t&src=typd
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tantek
e.g. trivially I found this spam net: https://twitter.com/search?f=realtime&q=Semana%20Cultural%20dedicada%20al%20Envejeciente%20%40t%20&src=typd (those aren't retweets those are *duplicates* spammed from multiple accounts)
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danlyke`
tantek, yeah, that's kind of what I'm thinking: I'm already scanning RSS feeds from my OPML (and from /irc-people), will probably add Microformats shortly. If I track which of those entries link elsewhere, then when A says "C vouches for me at entry [URL]", I can make a "yes" or "no" determination from my local knowledge of links.
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tantek
right - for you it will be trivial to implement I expect
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tantek
for both sending and receiving vouch
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tantek
in general the implementation of receiving / verifying a vouch should be trivial
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bret
daf: ikiwiki! Cool! Have been eying it for a while
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danlyke`
tantek yeah, my robustness is mostly just about potential race condition between "haven't checked C recently, A sends mention, I may need to store that until my next C check to verify".
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bret.io
edited /SubToMe (+68) "/* Indieweb Examples */ Added myself"
(view diff)
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daf
bret: it seems kind of indieweb-incompatible
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daf
I wanted to like ikiwiki
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bret
how so?
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daf
seems it strips out <link> tags
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tantek
what is ikiwiki?
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Loqi
ikiwiki is an open source server software project for hosting a wiki on your own site http://indiewebcamp.com/ikiwiki
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tantek
neat!
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gRegor`
tantek: So when I receive a webmention + voucher, my verification process is to confirm I have linked to that voucher URL before and ... what else? Or is that it?
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bret
ikiwiki uses file-based storage + git iirc
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daf
ikiwiki is one of Joey Hess's "everything is git" projects :)
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gRegor`
I know I'm missing something on this voucher verification thing
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daf
it also calls itself a website compiler
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bret
daf: can you git clone [url to ikiwiki wiki repo] ?
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danlyke`
gRegor: That you have linked to the *domain* of the voucher URL, and that the entry that the voucher URL links to has a link to the domain of the WebMention requestor.
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bret.io
edited /User:Bret.io (-44) "/* Events */"
(view diff)
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daf
bret: yeah, and some people even set up unauthenticated git push for pseudo-anonymous editing
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bret
heh neato
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daf
it does have online editing
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daf
but it involved CGI which seems kind of archaic
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daf
most of the people I know who use it are Debian developers
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tantek
gRegor`: vouch verification described here: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-09-28#t1411943591558
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daf
https://www.branchable.com/ is an ikiwiki farm
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tantek
what is CGI?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "CGI" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=CGI
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tantek
what is Debian?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "Debian" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Debian
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gRegor`
Aha
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bret
daf: see if you can bend it to your will and make it indieweb friendly >:]
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daf
I think it has the same sorts of problems as blosxom/pyblosxom: very flexible/hackable, but hard to set up and maintain in practice
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tantek
what is blosxom?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "blosxom" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=blosxom
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tantek
what is pyblosxom?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "pyblosxom" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=pyblosxom
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danlyke`
ie: A finds a link on B/123 to C/456, and knows that C/789 links to A/012. So A mentions B/345 on A/678, and sends B a WebMention to B/345 with [A/678, C/789].
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daf
bret: working on it :) https://indieauth.com/gpg would be a nice start
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tantek
danlyke - you got it
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daf
maybe a diagram would help :P
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tantek
daf indeed :) user-flow too :)
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tantek
danlyke - then B verifies (by whatever internal mechanism it wants) that it has linked to C (blogroll, whitelist, Twitter followings, nicknames cache, outbound link cache)
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tantek
and retrieves C/789 and verifies it links to A
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danlyke`
tantek: right. A third parameter might be the page on B that links to C. That removes an index requirement from B.
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tantek
that would be a fourth parameter :)
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danlyke`
tantek indeed, you are correct!
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tantek
the "linked to" (what you call "index") requirement precedes vouch
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tantek
that is, presumably you (B) have some mechanism by which you accept/reject webmentions from A
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tantek
you already have to check that "linked to" mechanism to see, have I (B) linked to A before?
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tantek
if so, accept plain webmention, if not, return 412
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tantek
so the point is, if you're implementing receiving vouch, you've already implemented some form of "linked to" or "index" checking.
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danlyke`
So the message is "A/678 mentions B/345, is vouched for by C/789, which is known by B/123"
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tantek
therefore there is no need for a fourth parameter
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tantek
instead of "which is known by" , "which links to"
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tantek
no notion of "known" or "trust" needed
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tantek
s/notion/abstract notion
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: no abstract notion of "known" or "trust" needed
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danlyke`
tantek, true, but my blog has 20k entries, and I don't right now have any index of outbound links to index ID. If the WebMention request can tell me which of those 20k entries links out to the voucher, that'd help.
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tantek
danlyke - however the initial webmention won't either, so you need some mechanism like that in the first place to even start the process of rejection
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danlyke`
(I mean, in practice I should index those outbound links anyway because I need to be tracking which of those are now spam farms, and which are 404, etc)
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tantek
unless you're just going to reject all plain webmentions ;)
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tantek
true!
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danlyke`
tantek, or put them in a queue util I can authenticate them somehow, and only to the request back to A when I actually have a notion of A's legitimacy.
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@t
just discovered today that federatedsocialweb(.)net got squatted/redirected. who let that expire? @evanpro @W3C? sigh. (ttk.me t4YG1)
(twitter.com/_/status/514502164639911936)
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tantek
I have yet to go update links to that domain from my site :(