#indiewebcamp 2014-09-28

2014-09-28 UTC
krendil, mdik and ShaneHudson joined the channel
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bret shaners: are you doing a devlog of any kind?
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shaners bret: not really
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Loqi shaners: aaronpk left you a message on 9/23 at 9:32pm: why does the ruby mf2 parser parse the result using "_" in key names instead of "-"? example: (Microformats2.parse 'https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/instagram/aaronpk/812343765104445747_1500881/1140655189').to_json
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shaners aaronpk: can you post a gist of that?
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bret shaners: not sure if I told you already, but congrats on jumping head first into some sweet projects!
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shaners bret: THANKS! I'm all in.
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bret lead the way!
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shaners there's lotsa ways ;)
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bret s/the/a
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Loqi bret meant to say: lead a way!
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shaners :D
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bret it will be rad, we have transmat (js), known(php), and now homesteading (ruby) as seriously developed projects
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shaners s/developed/developing/
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shaners shit. doesn't work on others.
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bret err ya
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bret that
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shaners but yeah. i'm stoked about our community progress
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KartikPrabhu shaners: I see that you have a different app for each type of post. is that the sort of modularisation you were recommending a while back?
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shaners we've always believed that these ideas and technologies need to be exercised by multiple implementations. and we're geting closer to realizing that.
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KartikPrabhu also really like the Homesteading logo :)
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bret maybe its just my filter bubble, but lots of people really seem eager to judge ello against everything they hate about facebook. a really good sign for alt projects
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shaners KartikPrabhu: Yes-ish. I'm not necessarily reccomending it, but we're certainly trying it out. I belive in it, at least.
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shaners bret++
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Loqi bret has 28 karma
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KartikPrabhu the advantage seems to be that people can install only the type of events they want
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shaners KartikPrabhu: thanks. that's prolly just a temporary logo. i spend all of 30 minutes coming up with that.
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parzzix Good evening everyone
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shaners we'll do a real identity / brand effort when we're more ready for people to start installing
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KartikPrabhu re: logo: maybe a dash of colour might be good, but I like the geometic pattern
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KartikPrabhu also homesteading is a very apt name
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KartikPrabhu instead of doing some "clever" pun
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parzzix transmat is new?
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KartikPrabhu what is transmat?
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Loqi http://indiewebcamp.com/transmat
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KartikPrabhu boop ^ no has been around for quite a while
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shaners KartikPrabhu: that's exactly the idea of the constellation model. you could install our events app alongside of known or whatever. or run just the hs-article app on your own site. or only the photo app if they're photographers, without all of the other post types. or whatever.
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KartikPrabhu ooo homestead-events with Known! that seems like magic :P
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shaners KartikPrabhu: I can't stand clever names. I *love* literal names.
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KartikPrabhu literal and metaphors (like homesteading) are very neat IMO. no interpretation needed
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shaners i'm glad you like it
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parzzix transmat looks real nice..reminds me a of ghost a little.
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bret the js mf tools are top notch thanks to Glen
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shaners parzzix: you can ask Loqi questions and Loqi will try to answer it with the wiki. For example,
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shaners What is transmat?
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Loqi http://indiewebcamp.com/transmat
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shaners Shit. I thought transmat would have a better answer.
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shaners I didn't read your thread very well. :|
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bret ill fix it
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shaners what is homesteading?
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Loqi Homesteading is a personal publishing platform project (created with Ruby on Rails) where the creator owns the content and can syndicate copies to third parties http://indiewebcamp.com/Homesteading
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shaners That's what I was hoping for.
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shaners go get 'em, bret!
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bret.io edited /User:Glennjones.net (+11) "/* Transmat */ Dfn'd Transmat" (view diff)
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bret what is transmat?
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Loqi Transmat is the software I have written to power for my personal site http://glennjones.net http://indiewebcamp.com/transmat
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bret meh...
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KartikPrabhu bret: good workaround. hopefully untimately it will get its own page and not a redirect
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acegiak kylewm: im in the process of converting all the posts in my favourite things list to use the favourites kind and metadata
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bret sounds tedious
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KartikPrabhu homesteading++ wow one-click to deploy to Heroku! nice
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Loqi homesteading has 1 karma
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shaners KartikPrabhu thanks. but it's very not ready for general use yet. namely, auth is implemented at all.
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parzzix cool thanks shaners
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shaners which means you can create/edit/delete in development only. but in production it's read only.
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shaners and there's no real docs around usage or installing
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KartikPrabhu shaners: better than nothing, and I'm sure you are working on those :)
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shaners you know it
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KartikPrabhu indieweb seems to be close to ready for some beta-level attention at least. Having multiple apps would be great
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bret KartikPrabhu/kylewm
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bret ooops
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KartikPrabhu wa?
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bret KartikPrabhu/kylewm how different are the redwind and parallel transport projects?
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KartikPrabhu bret: very as far as I see. (must open source Bundle soon). Redwind is Flask based and Bundle is Django based
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bret django is pretty sweet, first time that I have been using a framework like it
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KartikPrabhu yeah it is quite developed. lets you do the useful things :)
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: and I use a lot of common python packages though. Like mf2py and mf2uitls
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KartikPrabhu is wondering if parts of Bundle and Red Wind can be abstracted out so others can combine them in useful ways
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: do you use one or more of bear's libraries?
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KartikPrabhu yeah I use ronkyuu
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KartikPrabhu might look at Ninka to do indieauth too
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bear i'm willing to work on anything that helps create python libs to be useful for others
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KartikPrabhu bear: indieauth is a good start. the whole auth process takes a while to digest
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kylewm I would like to see what it would take to migrate my stuff over to ronkyuu and hopefully contribute back usefully
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bear ya, ninka is the bits I had to reference when I was adding /login to my site
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: having multiple projects is good though. even if they do the same things
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bear yep - I would gladly borrow any ideas you come up while working on your own ;)
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: for instance if one could abstract away Red Wind's storage and Flask interface, I would totally steal your Address Book :)
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KartikPrabhu shaners' idea of modularising code looks very useful for things like this
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: funny, i'm just working on the /contacts page today
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kylewm née addressbook
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bear oh boy would I love to see some flask examples on how to do contacts
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bear hmm, need to eat
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KartikPrabhu heats up the cheese mound locally known as lasagna
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KartikPrabhu thinks that the address book model could be nicely adapted to a "following" list
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tantek good afternoon #indiewebcamp!
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KartikPrabhu hi tantek
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tantek I'm making a few FAQ edits
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KartikPrabhu tantek: should there be a general FAQ on the homepage? with links to other FAQs perhaps?
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KartikPrabhu or a link to http://indiewebcamp.com/faq
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KartikPrabhu in the sidebar
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tantek maybe?
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tantek i'm editing /faq now, almost done
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KartikPrabhu feels it might be good for beginners to browse through and get a general feel instead of looking at seemingly abstract principles and so on
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tantek interesting, prompt them to learn by presenting the (obvious) questions they might be thinking but not expressing
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KartikPrabhu yup
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KartikPrabhu also useful for people in the IRC-dark timezones
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KartikPrabhu one faq also is "is there a video/article explaining the indieweb" looking for instances in log
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kylewm my $0.02, the homepage is already a little overwhelming
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: hence a link to /faq in the sidebar suggestion
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kylewm +1 for sidebar
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tantek this is a good intuitive suggestion, I often find myself looking for an FAQ for a site in their sidebar or footer
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tantek in order to get a quick overview of what the people running the site care about
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KartikPrabhu yeah. intuitive for sure. no data
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tantek in our case, s/people running the site care/community cares
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KartikPrabhu might also help people understand if "indieweb" is a solution they want/need
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tantek.com created /federated (+24) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /FAQ (+962) "expand audience FAQ to *wants to* *creators and creatives*, add Why can no one make something consumer friendly, expand who for, re-order qs a bit by applicability" (view diff)
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tantek KartikPrabhu, kylewm do you think FAQ is important enough to put first under "Resources" in the sidebar? Or do you have another suggested spot in the sidebar?
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shaners good evening, tantek
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tantek.com edited /FAQ (+62) "/* Why can no one make something consumer friendly */ see also Who are we making software for" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu tantek: depends on who the homepage is catering to. if beginners then I would put all the beginner-centric ones on top like "FAQ", "Principles" "get started" and then the rest
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tantek good evening shaners
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KartikPrabhu fails to search logs for people asking for articles explaining the indieweb
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tantek KartikPrabhu: consider ordering them in terms of maximum chance of getting them to start *doing* rather than just reading
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tantek what is the minimum a new person needs to read/see before they're convinced to just get started?
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kylewm intuitively I would expect it near the bottom
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tantek thanks kylewm
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KartikPrabhu tantek: same in that case. FAQ makes deciding whether to have indieweb, Principles introduces the core philosophy, Get Started well gets them started
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tantek kylewm: near projects / CC0? before which of those?
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kylewm tantek: I was thinking right below projects
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kylewm hmm, I could also argue for above projects
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kylewm I think above projects :)
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tantek.com edited /MediaWiki:Sidebar (+11) "make FAQ more discoverable, for those who might want to learn by viewing answers to common questions" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu tantek: kylewm: again my suggestions are intuitive so whoever is editing should make a judgement call :)
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tantek kylewm, SGTM, done. take a look: http://indiewebcamp.com
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kylewm LGTM
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tantek what is SGTM?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "SGTM" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=SGTM
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KartikPrabhu hmm i dont see th FAQ in the sidebar :(
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GWG Evening
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tantek.com created /SGTM (+253) "stub with dfn, see also" (view diff)
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tantek KartikPrabhu: reload
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tantek also, be sure you're logged in, long cache on logged out view
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KartikPrabhu oh yeah must be the cache
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tantek.com edited /SGTM (+14) "proposal" (view diff)
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tantek what is LGTM?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "LGTM" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=LGTM
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KartikPrabhu yup there it is. Also, can we put a required attribute on the log in domain name form ?
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kylewm I think these are Google-isms
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shaners Looks Good To Me?
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kylewm yeah, and Sounds...
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tantek.com created /LGTM (+397) "stub with dfn, see also" (view diff)
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kylewm I would love to get another pair of eyes on this... trying to tag people in an easier way https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/38780898/tagged-contacts.png
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tantek kylewm, shaners, appreciate feedback on /SGTM /LGTM :)
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kylewm I was going to use full names for everyone but then it felt really weird to call bear anything else
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tantek kylewm: I believe you can do that automatically by what data you have in the h-card for each person
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shaners in some cirlces SGB and SGS are also used to mean "seems good, bro" and "seems good, sis", respectively. though, i don't think that's worth adding to the iwc wiki.
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tantek shaners - indeed, not worth adding, because "in some circles" is a third party detached reference.
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tantek like "some say"
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tantek such phrases can be a linguistic dark pattern: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_word
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kylewm tantek: I don't think I understood your point about h-cards
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tantek kylewm: sorry I left the thought half-complete
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kylewm what I want is to type @t and have it auto-linked to tantek.com
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: if the h-card has a p-nickname use that else use full name
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tantek thanks KartikPrabhu :)
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KartikPrabhu see: http://microformats.org/wiki/h-card#Properties
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GWG kylewm: I like the look.
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kylewm bad news bear.im doesn't have a p-nickname
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kylewm (sorry couldn't resist lame movie reference)
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: you could add it yourself when you add that person to your address book no?
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@jeremyzilar â–“ @thomyorke of @radiohead just released his latest album, "Tomorrow's Modern Boxes" on BitTorrent — http://www.radiohead.com/deadairspace/tomorrows-modern-boxes #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/516052272384856066)
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KartikPrabhu indieweb should really engage artists who want to go indie... Warren Ellis is a great example.
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tantek kylewm: that may be just due to insufficient advice about h-card publishing
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shaners tantek: i'll try again. some of my (ruby) friends use sgb/sgs. i sometimes catch myself saying it outside of those friends. sgb/sgs mean roughly the same thing as SGTM/LGTM.
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tantek based on my experience, bear would prefer to be called "bear", yet that's not indicated anywhere visible (nevermind marked up) on https://bear.im/
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kylewm (thanks GWG)
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tantek before jumping to markup, perhaps we can state that this is something your /homepage should say
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tantek even just in prose
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tantek once we have visible prose examples, from those we can determine what markup makes sense
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tantek UI first as it were
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tantek shaners, interesting. I'll listen/look for those uses.
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KartikPrabhu tantek: kylewm: true. use homepage h-card p-nickname if there is one, else the address book author could add one themselves for personal reference... ?
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tantek if such phrases start to get used here in #indiewebcamp, we can add them as well
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kylewm actually, the irc log is a really good reference for what i want
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KartikPrabhu tantek: SGB ;)
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tantek s/start to get used/start to get used unironically ( :P )
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Loqi tantek meant to say: if such phrases start to get used unironically ( :P ) here in #indiewebcamp, we can add them as well
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KartikPrabhu lol
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: unlikely that I'll have a nickname in my h-card since I have never had one
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tantek looks at bear.im's invisible side files for additional clues
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tantek KartikPrabhu, absent a nickname, use "name" (full name, fn)
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KartikPrabhu yup. but if kylewm wants to locally store it as "inmateoftheasylum" I don't mind ;)
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kylewm so absent a p-nickname, do you think it would be nicer to convert @t to a real h-card with [pic]Tantek Çelik
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KartikPrabhu was just thinking that ^
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tantek kylewm - yes, and I think that's the same conclusion we came to the last time we discussed this which may have been 2011
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tantek which led to aaronpk's implementation of this
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kylewm I think people are fairly used to the strange formality of that on Facebook
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tantek this = automatically using full name of someone on indie posts, and translating to @-references on Twitter POSSE copies
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kylewm but I notice aaronpk has since stopped?
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tantek in response to typing (authoring) any of say @t, @tantek.com, Tantek
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tantek has he?
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tantek it only does that for names in his nickname-cache
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kylewm http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2014/09/11/1/
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: http://indiewebcamp.com/nicknames_cache##given-name+inside+an+abbr
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/nicknames_cache#Easier_Person_References_When_Writing
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tantek and http://indiewebcamp.com/p3k#Local_Nicknames
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kylewm ah here's one with a card http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2013/09/15/1/indieauth-now-supports-openid-delegation
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tantek !tell aaronpk why doesn't http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2014/09/11/1/ use users.txt? what happened to displaying icon+name on indie posts vs. tweet posse copies?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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kylewm perhaps it is different with notes and articles
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tantek kylewm: possibly. I think barnaby does it for all though
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tantek https://waterpigs.co.uk/
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aaronpk Hi
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Loqi aaronpk: tantek left you a message 3 minutes ago: why doesn't http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2014/09/11/1/ use users.txt? what happened to displaying icon+name on indie posts vs. tweet posse copies?
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aaronpk It uses users.txt to link @t to Tantek.con
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aaronpk M
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aaronpk I stopped doing the full name and photo in notes a long time ago because I want notes to preserve the original text I enter
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tantek that's a fascinating design decision from experience that's worth documenting/capturing somewhere! perhaps on /p3k ?
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KartikPrabhu why not store both the original note.txt and a parsed version note.html?
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KartikPrabhu only the txt need be copied and so on. the html can be generated by code again. HTMl as cache ?
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tantek KartikPrabhu: that's what I do. I write/store "text" for my notes, and then generate the HTML dynamically using CASSIS auto_link
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tantek no caching. haven't needed it yet for perf reasons, ergo.
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KartikPrabhu me too. plain text notes ( but in a DB field :( ) and generate dynamically on post fetch
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tantek.com edited /Bundle (+12) "linky linky" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu hey!
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kartikprabhu.com edited /Bundle (+244) "/* Post Types */ elaborate on content authoring" (view diff)
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kylewm all right, have another question. it's clear there was some discussion of /pubsub a while back
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kylewm i don't quite understand why the "ideal" solution involves a hub
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kylewm why can shrewdness not subscribe to get a webhook callback from me whenever i publish an update?
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tantek kylewm: it can, you can be your own hub
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: do you want to keep a record of all the people subscribing to you and send a PUSH to all of them on publishing a new post?
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kylewm so when shrewdness subscribes to my site, it goes through whichever hub i specify, not necessarily superfeedr?
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tantek kylewm: I believe a design goal of PuSH was modularity to help support small sites.
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tantek kylewm: correct
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kylewm ok interesting
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: I would be happy to :P
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KartikPrabhu hmm... usually feed reading is anonymous... i feel it would be better that way
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KartikPrabhu guessing. don't know enough details of PuSH
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tantek KartikPrabhu: it's a trade-off. It's more work (coding, admin) to run your own hub, and yet, as you observed, you have much more data about your subscribers, which otherwise is bottled up in the hub.
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KartikPrabhu tantek: i am wondering if subscribers would want that. In anycase, they have the choice to just poll my h-feed as they please so might not be an issue.
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tantek KartikPrabhu: that's right - a PuSH *client* has to make that explicit policy decision / trade-off.
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KartikPrabhu nods. fair enough
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kylewm interesting conversation on twitter about this yetserday https://twitter.com/evanpro/status/515598700916539393
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@evanpro @dakami @kevinmarks @kragen @gojomo So two people establish a connection, one friend wants to view other's profile without server logs? (twitter.com/_/status/515598700916539393)
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kylewm https://twitter.com/evanpro/status/515602470647894016
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@evanpro @gojomo @dakami @kevinmarks @kragen So you're saying people prefer turning over their personal data to a proven unreliable third party... (twitter.com/_/status/515602470647894016)
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kylewm https://twitter.com/evanpro/status/515602741117612032
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@evanpro @gojomo @dakami @kevinmarks @kragen ...because they don't want their friends to know they've looked at their profile? C'mon. (twitter.com/_/status/515602741117612032)
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tantek.com edited /FAQ (+85) "/* Why can no one make something consumer friendly */ citation for question" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu tantek: related - http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-07-20/line/1405920374000
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tantek ah, hypothetical use-cases discussed on a silo.
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tantek KartikPrabhu: related perhaps but different. The presumption that a "full" Indiewebstack is even defined is pretty funny :)
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kylewm I enjoyed evan's debunking the use case :)
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KartikPrabhu isn't Known such a thing? not a full stack but...
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tantek Known is perhaps the leading more broadly usable implementation of IndieMark features/levels.
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tantek kylewm: I don't understand why evanpro doesn't POSSE his replies from his own site (instead of silo-posting).
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KartikPrabhu tantek: yeah I think people mean an "install and go" solution
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tantek what is install and go?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "install and go" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=install+and+go
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KartikPrabhu err :P
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kylewm tantek the pump.io -> twitter bridge was always buggy in my experience... there was a while where his posts would show up on twitter DAYS later
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tantek.com created /install_and_go (+31) "r" (view diff)
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tantek kylewm - and this is a key reason why I don't take pump.io that seriously (yet). evan hasn't been able to get it to the point where it *replaces* his own use of Twitter.
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tantek whereas the number of us here who *have* replaced Twitter with our own sites & implementations continue to grow.
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tantek at a minimum for posting notes, and most of us that do that also post *replies* on our own site first, and POSSE thread/copy to twitter
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kylewm I read this quote from him the other day (documented on /pump.io) "I really want pump.io to become one of those essential pieces of infrastructure for development"
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kylewm it's just a whole different goal/mindset I think
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tantek kylewm that sounds like an instance of http://indiewebcamp.com/antipatterns#mass_adoption
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kylewm it's interesting right? because the cited examples memcached and rabbitmq were created to solve a specific problem that someone had and happened to be generally useful
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kylewm not "this will only be useful once everyone adopts it"
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tantek kylewm: I believe all such "essential pieces of infrastructure" are "created to solve a specific problem that someone had and happened to be generally useful."
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kylewm I think you're right
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GWG Do you still read Twitter?
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kylewm I do
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GWG I was just thinking...
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tantek.com edited /antipatterns (+216) "/* mass adoption */ "this will only be useful once everyone adopts it" is another form" (view diff)
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GWG It's reply on your own site...but how do you know what to reply to?
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tantek GWG another way of asking that question is, do you have a /reader on your own site?
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tantek re: read Twitter
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KartikPrabhu damnit tantek won this time ^^
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tantek GWG re: how do you know what to reply to? URLs to permalinks
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tantek er, permalink URLs :)
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GWG tantek, I'm still not at that level.
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tantek which level?
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GWG I just built reply and realized I haven't figured out what to reply to
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tantek a "reply-to" URL text field is a common minimal viable UI for that
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kylewm *batman voice* reply to me!
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GWG tantek: I have a the field
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GWG tantek: I have the field
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@kyle_wm @generic_brian interesting perspective. To me API means I can put data in and get data out using my own #indieweb tools but i see yr point (twitter.com/_/status/516073235352276992)
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kylewm GWG: do you have web action handler urls?
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kylewm new prettier contacts page https://kylewm.com/contacts
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GWG kylewm: No. It's on my list.
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KartikPrabhu recommends a "globe" icon for personal site kylewm
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GWG kylewm: The JSON REST API for Wordpress, which would help with them, is tentatively set for Wordpress 4.1
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: http://fortawesome.github.io/Font-Awesome/icon/globe/ :)
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: how's that look?
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KartikPrabhu nice :)
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kylewm KartikPrabhu++ thank you for the suggestion!
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Loqi KartikPrabhu has 64 karma
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: your twitter avatar looks so profesh
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kylewm hehe, I had to find a picture where I didn't look silly for something at work
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kylewm and that was literally the only one. from a friend's wedding
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GWG kylewm: Which web action handler URLs do you have?
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kylewm GWG: try like https://kylewm.com/new/reply?url=https://david.shanske.com/notes/2014/09/21/stupid-shipping/
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kylewm also /like?url=, /share, and /bookmark
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GWG kylewm: That is what I intend to get to
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kylewm I really like it. Honestly better than micropub, etc. type proposals
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GWG But the underlying tech isn't there yet.
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GWG I may try acegiak's whisperfollow though
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@jtauber @joeld the webmention stuff brings back memories of things like http://jtauber.com/blog/2004/04/29/blogs_annotations_comments_and_trackbacks/ (twitter.com/_/status/516077228585938944)
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GWG Hmm...except it crashes.
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@joeld @jtauber Yes, I'm not terribly familiar with Trackbacks/pingbacks; & not particularly sure what Webmentions add that earlier models lacked. (twitter.com/_/status/516078090427314176)
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kylewm GWG: whisperfollow or my thing?
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GWG Whisperfollow
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kylewm phew
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GWG kylewm: I like the look of your design
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GWG kylewm: But I can't use it for my site
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kylewm interesting, why not?
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kylewm I should disclose somewhere that I borrowed majorly from eliemichel http://tools.exppad.com/Replier/
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Loqi yea
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GWG kylewm: I don't have any API support for it yet
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kylewm I'm a little confused about why API is required
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GWG How would I get the post into Wordpress
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GWG ?
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kylewm like in the New post UI, where you added the in-reply-to field, why can't you read querystring params and pre-populate fields?
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GWG kylewm: The closest to that is the Press This option, which is not extensible, as far as I know
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GWG That is why the REST API is the better long term solution. I could use your post interface and send the data directly into Wordpress without touching Admin.
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KartikPrabhu moar APIs
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GWG Moar?
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kylewm ohhh I see, you mean JSON API for micropub
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GWG kylewm: No. I'd want it for implementing the creation of the endpoints you identified as well.
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GWG No point in writing something using XMLRPC, which is the best available right now other than the new stuff.
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kylewm ok, gotcha
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kylewm same concept, different plumbing :)
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GWG kylewm: Yes.
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kylewm I added a "Deploy to Heroku" button for redwind, but it doesn't make much sense unless you fix the header/footer http://horse-feathers-1492.herokuapp.com/
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kylewm cc: shaners
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shaners righteous!
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shaners kylewm: you can roll all of those things into settings like we do in Homesteading
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kylewm shaners: I will have to have a look at how you do it
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shaners https://github.com/homesteading/homesteading-note/blob/master/db/migrate/20131006074600_create_settings.rb
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shaners https://github.com/homesteading/homesteading-note/blob/master/app/models/setting.rb
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shaners https://github.com/homesteading/homesteading-note/blob/master/db/seeds.rb
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shaners ;)
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: I am thinking of modularising my code ala homesteading too, if you do that too I can just use red-wind-address-book or something ;)
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kylewm ok just do the Matrix thing... "I know Ruby"
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shaners "just" is the watch word
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shaners anytime someone says "you can just...", you know it's not that simple. :P
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kylewm ref: http://kardsunlimited.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/i-know-kung-fu-300x300.jpg
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shaners Show me.
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kylewm haha
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kylewm shaners: thank you for the pointers, bookmarking
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KartikPrabhu fight fight!
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shaners good luck!
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shaners you don't need to know ruby to do this kinda thing. it's a pretty simple abstraction.
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GWG !tell acegiak Look at the latest commit to the taxonomy plugin
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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kylewm I should have said 5.times{ puts 'Hello World' }
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Loqi fo sho
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shaners a setting has: name, key, content, editable(boolean)
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acegiak gwg: looking now
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GWG acegiak: Didn't know you were here
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Loqi acegiak: GWG left you a message 38 seconds ago: Look at the latest commit to the taxonomy plugin
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acegiak just catching up from the hilight on whisperfollow earlier
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shaners build a little interface for setting: author name, author url, flickr username, etc. then pull those values in your markups to at render time. boom bam boom.
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GWG acegiak: It gives me a conflict with Semantic Linkbacks, by the way
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acegiak whisperfollow? yeah. that's an issue I'm trying to work out
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acegiak the problem is they're both loading the mf2 library from their own locations
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GWG acegiak: I see that. I was going to ask you if you had a solution before I fiddled with it
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KartikPrabhu acegiak: GWG: use something like if !mf2-library then load mf2-library no?
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KartikPrabhu if you put that in both it should work ?
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acegiak KartikPrabhu: I'll have to do it in both but I haven't got that to work yet
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shaners what is redwind?
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Loqi Red Wind (source code) is Kyle Mahan's IndieWeb-ready blog software written in Python and running on Flask http://indiewebcamp.com/redwind
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acegiak gimme a sec and I'll look at the two plugins
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shaners What is flask?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "flask" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=flask
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kylewm what!
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GWG acegiak: I just added code to Indieweb Taxonomy to return the response data as part of a JSON post request.
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acegiak h ok cool
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acegiak ok so both have this for loading the mf2 library:
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acegiak if(!class_exists ("Mf2/Parser",false)){
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acegiak require_once 'Mf2/Parser.php';
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acegiak }
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acegiak still throwing errors :S
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acegiak oh wait I've got it
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acegiak ok I'll do a commit on both in two minutes, GWG
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shaners aaronpk: did you ever gist me that Ruby mf2 to_json dump?
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GWG acegiak: I have a question for you though.
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acegiak sure
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GWG acegiak: You used the JSON API for Whisperfollow. I'm just starting to play with it. Other than adding the response data to the return, what other functions does it make sense to implement?
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@joeld "Webmentions" need abuse prevention built into the spec or they will die in a fire. https://thoughtstreams.io/joeld/webmention-abuse/ (twitter.com/_/status/516093481979478016)
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acegiak I've only been implementing what I need
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acegiak so for example I've added an endpoint for creating new endpoints
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acegiak s/new endpoints/new subscriptions/
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Loqi acegiak meant to say: so for example I've added an endpoint for creating new subscriptions
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kylewm.com created /Heroku (+1304) "stub out Heroku page" (view diff)
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shaners What is Heroku?
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Loqi Heroku is a platform as a service (PaaS) that supports Java, Node.js, Scala, Clojure, Python, PHP and others http://indiewebcamp.com/Heroku
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kylewm.com created /File-storage (+26) "Redirected page to [[file-storage]]" (view diff)
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GWG acegiak: I still have this idea of creating a reply endpoint to automatically set up posts, but judging by the discussions, the API is still fine-tuning the creation of posts with taxonomies.
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acegiak GWG: I'd like a plugin that creates a new post endpoint that can handle taxonomies and metadata dynamically
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acegiak rather than one that has hardpoints for certain taxonomy elements hardcoded
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KartikPrabhu @joeld 's heat is in the right place, but the suggestion to include "abuse prevention" into a notification spec is misguided
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kylewm.com edited /Heroku (+0) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ proper StudlyCaps for GitPub" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu s/heat/heart
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Loqi KartikPrabhu meant to say: @joeld 's heart is in the right place, but the suggestion to include "abuse prevention" into a notification spec is misguided
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kylewm what is GitPub
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "GitPub" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=GitPub
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KartikPrabhu shaners++ for successfully tantek-ing kylewm ;)
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Loqi shaners has 10 karma
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kylewm KartikPrabhu++ for verbing the adjective noun
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Loqi KartikPrabhu has 65 karma
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@jtauber RT @joeld: "Webmentions" need abuse prevention built into the spec or they will die in a fire. https://thoughtstreams.io/joeld/webmention-abuse/ (twitter.com/_/status/516094713032884224)
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KartikPrabhu ok drafting a reply will submit here first for analysis
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acegiak do other similar protocols have abuse prevention built in?
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GWG acegiak: They seem to be getting to what you want.
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KartikPrabhu nope
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KartikPrabhu @acegiak ^
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KartikPrabhu afaik
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KartikPrabhu HTTP doesn't :P you can GET/POST a website ad infinitum afaik
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acegiak so why hold webmentions to a higher standard which would then hobble it?
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kylewm.com created /flask (+19) "Redirected page to [[Flask]]" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu acegiak: we should hold webmentions to a higher standard than others, but having "abuse prevention" globally in a spec is misguided
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KartikPrabhu well the thoughtstreams do-dad does not have webmentions anyway
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acegiak I feel like baking that into the spec would just hobble the tech permanently in favour of winning six months of the spam war
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acegiak GWG: I just pushed to github on both whisperfollow and semantic linkbacks
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iamshane.com edited /Heroku (+6) "Add ruby to the list of supported languages on Heroku (they did start with Ruby, after all)" (view diff)
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tantek I do think we need explicitly add to webmention
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kylewm.com created /Flask (+536) "stub Flask page and add myself and cuibonobo as users" (view diff)
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kylewm what is flask?
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tantek however, *what* we need to we're only going to find out through implementation experimentation
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Loqi Flask is a minimal Python framework for writing web applications http://indiewebcamp.com/flask
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tantek there have been brainstorming thoughts about a 3rd parameter for webmention
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tantek something that expresses "here's how you know to trust me"
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KartikPrabhu here it is: https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/webmention-abuse-joeld
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tantek details later, dinner now :)
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kylewm shaners: oops, I copied the list from Wikipedia, missed that it was the "they have since added support for..." list
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kylewm ty for fixing
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shaners np
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shaners i'm old school heroku. from the early days when they were ruby only. :D
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KartikPrabhu fixed typos. any incorrect statements in https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/webmention-abuse-joeld ?
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GWG acegiak: Thanks for the fix. I'll have to play with it when I get a chance.
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acegiak coolios. please do keep me informed of any issues you run into
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KartikPrabhu anyway tweeting to taht
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: I think you raise good points, but I would maybe leave out "misguided". danlyke has expressed similar concerns about webmention
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iamshane.com edited /Heroku (+442) "/* Limitations => Trade Offs */" (view diff)
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GWG acegiak: And for the other thing, I will likely have more over time. Right now, I'm just programming additional data to be returned in an unauthenticated response.
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: hmm thanks. I'll still tweet that out ;)
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acegiak GWG: cool, cool
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@kartik_prabhu @joeld I appreciate the sentiment and the idea of this post but, I think the suggestion is misguided more: https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/webmention-abuse-joeld #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/516098616595734528)
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GWG acegiak: For creation, I may have to wait until they finish the taxonomy setting parameters.
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acegiak does anyone know of something I can link to like imdb but for songs and artists?
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acegiak for my favourites posts
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GWG acegiak: I've also decided to eliminate the Link post format in favor of the Bookmark Kind.
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GWG acegiak: Which I thought you might have a thought on.
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: despite your warning, I included "misguided" into the tweet :P
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acegiak GWG: eliminate how?
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GWG acegiak: I disabled it in my theme.
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acegiak ah ok
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: maybe you want to reply with a more positive note?
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KartikPrabhu **tag
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GWG acegiak: Not all themes use it anyway, but I wasn't doing anything special for it, because the Kind options took its place.
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KartikPrabhu acegiak: soundcloud/last.fm and such?
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acegiak GWG: yeah same, but I just use post formats to change the post display slightly
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GWG acegiak: So do I. I'm using Image, Video, Standard, Aside, and Status Update. Quote and Link were unnecessary after the plugin was activated.
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GWG acegiak: The only different I have between an Aside and a Status Update is the styling.
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KartikPrabhu GWG: curious. what do you post as an aside?
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KartikPrabhu notes?
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acegiak KartikPrabhu: I know imdb is a private enterprise but somehow it seems more official than last.fm? maybe I should just rock with last.fm though
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KartikPrabhu acegiak: link to anyone that you trust/use I think :)
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acegiak KartikPrabhu: I use asides for the majority of my posts these days. they're pretty m
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acegiak uch notes
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KartikPrabhu just like Twitter for replies
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acegiak I posts statuses as asides and responses
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KartikPrabhu likes hijacking Wordpress Aside for Notes
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GWG KartikPrabhu: Aside is a style. I define it as no displayed title, larger font.
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acegiak KartikPrabhu: the problem is I don't trust last.fm but they're the only ones compreshensive enough and I DO scrobble to them
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GWG And a Status Update is an aside with a profile picture.
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KartikPrabhu "Aside" has somewhat of a diminutive connotation compared to notes though
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GWG Status Update: https://david.shanske.com/notes/2014/05/02/press/
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acegiak KartikPrabhu: yeah but it's baked into wordpress
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KartikPrabhu acegiak: agreed. since you #ownyourowndata you can always change it later :)
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GWG Aside: https://david.shanske.com/notes/2014/09/21/stupid-shipping/
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KartikPrabhu acegiak: yes. that is what I learnt from my small foray into wordpess
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acegiak I've just picked one post format for notelikes tfor consistency and then I display it however I like
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acegiak One of hte things I have to fix with whisperfollow is the fact that the whispers category is baked in because I didn't know hwo to create options pages when I created theplugin
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@kartik_prabhu @joeld of course not disputing the facts you have mentioned. pointing out that doing it in a decentralised global… (https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/webmention-abuse-facts-joeld) (twitter.com/_/status/516101285058080768)
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KartikPrabhu is scared at how fast he can publish with Django admin, review and POSSE via Bridgy publish
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acegiak KartikPrabhu: I have a kupfer plugin for wordpress. ctrl-space->type status->press enter
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acegiak posted and possed
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GWG I'll probably be migrating from using the Status Update and Aside styles to separate out life commentary from responses.
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acegiak GWG: that's probably clever
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KartikPrabhu acegiak: my brief foray into Wordpress dev made me dislike it :P I'll stick to python :P
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GWG acegiak: I've been trying to simplify my approach. Still haven't solved like vs favorite. But I did add favorite as a default kind to the plugin for people who see them differently.
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KartikPrabhu fwiw Wordpress is great for quickly building a site, but trying to get a good customisation is hard
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acegiak KartikPrabhu: the right plugins go a long way
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KartikPrabhu brief = 1 week
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KartikPrabhu acegiak: not long enough IMO
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GWG KartikPrabhu: And acegiak and I are trying to add some of the right plugins.
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KartikPrabhu personal bias of course due to having more expereince with Django and python :)
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GWG I still think that the right infrastructure on Wordpress is so close
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acegiak the customcss, page in widget and allow php in posts/pages plugins are just so good for getting a site in teh right shape quickly
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shaners Does anyone know how i setup my {{shaners}} template to look like Kevin and Bret on this page? http://indiewebcamp.com/Heroku
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shaners So it shows my picture and name, not "Template:shaners"
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acegiak not proselytising though. wordpress has some major issues. just agreeing on how nice it is to be able to publish easily
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KartikPrabhu shaners: you have to make a mediawiki template...
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shaners how do i do that?
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KartikPrabhu errr /me is dumbfounded by that question ;)
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Loqi [mention] https://david.shanske.com/notes/2014/04/27/remotely-attending-indiewebcamp-nyc/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/NYC (webmention)
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KartikPrabhu help kylewm tantek ^^
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KartikPrabhu aaha shaners copy-pasta-edit that indiewebcamp.com/Template:aaronpk with your nick
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KartikPrabhu so this: http://indiewebcamp.com/Template:shaners
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GWG Sorry about that. Was reorganizing posts
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@joeld @kartik_prabhu it may be that abuse prevention is impossible to standardize/require; in that case I’d say Webmentions are doomed. (twitter.com/_/status/516103704161050624)
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shaners oh duh. thanks KartikPrabhu
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KartikPrabhu !tell snarfed is it possible for Bridgy publish to include more at: original-link if the content was truncated instead of a (original-link). more reader friendly IMO
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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iamshane.com created /Template:shaners (+106) "Created page with "<span class="h-card">{{sparkline|https://iamshane.com/photo.jpg}}[[User:Iamshane.com|Shane Becker" target="_blank">User:Iamshane.com|Shane" target="_blank">https://iamshane.com/photo.jpg}}[[User:Iamshane.com|Shane Becker]]</span>"" (view diff)
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GWG There...how's that? https://david.shanske.com/
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iamshane.com edited /Template:shaners (+25) (view diff)
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@kartik_prabhu @joeld same could be said of HTTP, it is still here. Sharing of block-lists in ad-blocking software suggests that… (https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/webmention-doomed-joeld) (twitter.com/_/status/516104993963651073)
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KartikPrabhu GWG: from a visual design POV, since your avatar has a border the shadow looks clunky. otherwise, very nice
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KartikPrabhu would also suggest having bigger clickable icons for non-pointing devices
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KartikPrabhu for share buttons
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KartikPrabhu judas priest my Sep 2014 notes list is getting long :P
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iamshane.com created /Template:Homesteading (+89) "Homesteading template" (view diff)
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GWG KartikPrabhu: Which share buttons?
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acegiak KartikPrabhu: blackwoolholiday.com is technically running the pfefferle's sempress theme
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KartikPrabhu GWG: the ones below the notes, with the Twiiter icon for instance
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acegiak just a little additional css
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iamshane.com created /heroku (+20) "Redirected page to [[Heroku]]" (view diff)
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GWG KartikPrabhu: I know I need to fix the avatar. Something overrode the original settings.
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GWG KartikPrabhu: Those are syndication links actually, not share buttons.
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KartikPrabhu acegiak: yes. I saw :) but making a portfolio-centric site with a good wordpress admin UI seemed hard
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KartikPrabhu GWG: oh yeah those then :)
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GWG KartikPrabhu: But I'll see about making it clearer.
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iamshane.com edited /Heroku (+0) "/* IndieWeb Examples */" (view diff)
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GWG Also on my list.
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KartikPrabhu in fact all links must have enough size to be tappable by big thumbs :)
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acegiak KartikPrabhu: ah, ok. the adminui is pretty standard yeah
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iamshane.com edited /Heroku (-5) "/* IndieWeb Examples */" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu acegiak: yes. I didn't want my friend to have instructions like "for a project choose this format in the sidebar on the right" :)
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KartikPrabhu acegiak: to be fair. plugins got me somewhere but not far enough.
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acegiak eah fair enough
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@kartik_prabhu @kyle_wm @joeld yes. also encryption enabled ones here: http://indiewebcamp.com/GPG#IndieWeb_Attendees_using_PGP_to_exchange_encrypted_messages But, individual site implementations, that go a long way. (twitter.com/_/status/516107326651002880)
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iamshane.com edited /Homesteading (-105) (view diff)
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@kartik_prabhu great questions by @joeld not sure there is a global solution to abuse-prevention. https://thoughtstreams.io/joeld/webmention-abuse/ https://twitter.com/joeld/status/516093481979478016 #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/516109683027763200)
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bear would love to learn how to markup his contact info so that "bear" is primary and his real name is secondary
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iamshane.com created /Template:homesteading (+89) "Just in case people don't capitalize" (view diff)
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shaners bear what do you mean by "is primary"?
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bear my persona is "bear"
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shaners where do you want to change?
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bear that is what i'm known as - it doesn't fit into a contact style
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bear which requires first/last names
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shaners oh, you mean in general? not just on the wiki?
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bear even on the wiki - I am known as bear
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shaners what is bear?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "bear" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=bear
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shaners ;)
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bear my "real" name doesn't come into the picture except when required
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shaners what is shaners?
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Loqi Shane Becker is a co-founder of Hypernova which is making Homesteading http://indiewebcamp.com/Shaners
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bear well, that is a flaw(?) of indieauth
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bear what is bear.im
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "bear.im" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=bear.im
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bear waaa
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shaners just copy/pasta a redirect page like some of us have
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shaners http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=shaners&redirect=no
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iamshane.com edited /Homesteading (+59) "Add logo" (view diff)
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ben_thatmust loqi doesn't like my name for such things
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Loqi woot!
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ben_thatmust what is ben_thatmustbeme
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "ben_thatmustbeme" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=ben_thatmustbeme
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bear.im created /bear (+21) "Redirected page to [[bear.im]]" (view diff)
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ben_thatmust lies
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bear.im edited /bear (+5) "Redirected page to [[User:Bear.im]]" (view diff)
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bear woo - drunk wiki editing FTW
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bear.im edited /User:Bear.im (+31) (view diff)
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bear time for bed
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ben_thatmust good night
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Loqi buenas noches
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bear.im created /bear.im (+26) "Redirected page to [[User:Bear.im]]" (view diff)
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bear.im edited /User:Bear.im (+18) "/* Introduction */" (view diff)
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shaners what is bear?
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Loqi Bear is an Manager of Operations for &yet living near Philadelphia, PA http://indiewebcamp.com/bear
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shaners :D
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@kartik_prabhu I suggest that abuse-prevention can be solved by usual methods+UI @kyle_wm @t @joeld @gRegorLove #indieweb more: https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/webmention-abuse-suggestion (twitter.com/_/status/516128025440555008)
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KartikPrabhu more proactive thoughts ^
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KartikPrabhu is instant-fav from tantek a good sign ? :P
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KartikPrabhu also with that I've reached 200 posts on a platform (Twitter) that I didn't think I'd ever use :P
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shaners good night, all
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Loqi don't let the bed bugs bite
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shaners sweet dreams, loqi
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Loqi [mention] http://raccooncode.withknown.com/2014/trying-out-this-thing-since-i-like-the-idea-of linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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@amblin @sil When it happens, it's likely to be #indieweb that does it. (twitter.com/_/status/516206565326454784)
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snarfed morning all
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Loqi snarfed: KartikPrabhu left you a message 7 hours, 44 minutes ago: is it possible for Bridgy publish to include more at: original-link if the content was truncated instead of a (original-link). more reader friendly IMO
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: hmm. maybe! FB already has an expanded form like that. i kept the twitter one minimal to save chars.
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snarfed (tantek asked for it for FB: https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/267 )
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snarfed it's subjective, so i guess ideally you'd be able to choose for yourself. reasonable feature request if you want
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@amblin @sil Isn't that what FB or G+ are? Just well integrated and silo'd? http://indiewebcamp.com/withknown IndieFriends section. (twitter.com/_/status/516221862490423296)
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petermolnar hi snarfed
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petermolnar bridgy does not seem to be picking up any posts for me from facebook newer than sept 12
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petermolnar any idea how to debug?
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snarfed petermolnar: hmm, sorry to hear that. i'll look
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snarfed any chance you have your user page URL handy?
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petermolnar https://www.facebook.com/petermolnar.eu ?
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petermolnar or the bridgy one?
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petermolnar https://www.brid.gy/facebook/584261234
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snarfed either, thanks!
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snarfed looks like it's seeing posts and responses but not finding links
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snarfed are the FB posts not public?
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snarfed bridgy only handles fully public posts
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petermolnar oh
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petermolnar that might be it
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petermolnar thanks :)
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snarfed other ideas: https://www.brid.gy/about#missing
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ShaneHudson Woooohoooo!!!!!!
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ShaneHudson Took me ages but finally managed to get DNS working on dedicated :) (probably not the best way, haven't set up multiple ips) http://diemlabs.com/ yay
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petermolnar snarfed it's all fine now, it was the level of visibility, sorry for not being able to spot it :)
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@kyle_wm @sil @amblin you can comment on other blogs (any that support webmention, not just @withknown) + batteries included for silo interop (twitter.com/_/status/516232892301586433)
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snarfed petermolnar: np! glad we figured it out
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shanehudson.net edited /dns (+241) "Adding into dns as a tool to help troubleshooting" (view diff)
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@amblin @kyle_wm @sil Exactly and is what I meant originally. @withknown packages and makes #indieweb tech easy. (twitter.com/_/status/516236336622481411)
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@smcdoyle Learning about indie web alternatives to mainstream social networks http://indiewebcamp.com/ #bclx https://twitter.com/smcdoyle/status/516238655099518976/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/516238655099518976)
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shanehudson.net edited /web_hosting (+108) "/* Dedicated Server */" (view diff)
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kylewm did not realize @sil coined "pingback"
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kylewm you know, if somebody wants to start webmention abuse prevention, the best thing might be to start sending wm spam :P
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kylewm.com edited /Known (+56) "/* Plugins and Themes Missing */ seems to have been fixed" (view diff)
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ben_thatmust ugh, i fixed it so that PHP wouldn't need [] on GET/POST multi-values, but i undid it because i thought i was causing issues with brid.gy
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ben_thatmust apparently i really need to make sending webmentions async
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petermolnar.eu edited /Ello (+72) "/* Unsustainable VC Funding */" (view diff)
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neuro` ben_thatmust: the more async, the best the user experience, retry management etc...
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ben_thatmust yeah, i already did that for receiving webmentions and pulling in context, but not for sending yet
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ben_thatmust seems like my whole site freezes until it fails bridgy sends... and bridgy probably fails because my site won't load
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tantek kylewm: re: Pingback and Stuart Langridge, yes. see: https://indiewebcamp.com/timeline#2002 :)
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@anomalily @GreatAndRandom I’m doing it #indieweb style just for my own site but I’ll probably throw it up on github & folks can fork it. (twitter.com/_/status/516256987340742658)
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tantek tommorris++ for representing at BarCamp BCLX! https://twitter.com/smcdoyle/status/516238655099518976
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@smcdoyle Learning about indie web alternatives to mainstream social networks http://indiewebcamp.com/ #bclx https://twitter.com/smcdoyle/status/516238655099518976/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/516238655099518976)
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tantek ah, Loqi can only do one thing in response
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tantek tommorris++
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Loqi tommorris has 56 karma
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tommorris People seemed to have enjoyed it. ;)
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neuro` tommorris++
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Loqi tommorris has 57 karma
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tantek since when did Twitter cleanup their hashtag search links like this? https://twitter.com/hashtag/indieweb
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ShaneHudson tantek: In terms of the URL or UI?
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ShaneHudson https://twitter.com/stephenfry/status/516253854145736704
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@stephenfry Utterly baffled by #ello - someone’s nabbed my name and I can’t find or message anyone. Probably my fault but frustratingly odd. (twitter.com/_/status/516253854145736704)
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@LifeHealthDiary Revolutionary Healthcare Change - because it's all about you! http://blog.lifetimehealthdiary.com/tribe-revolution-whats/ #OwnYourData (twitter.com/_/status/516266138846900224)
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@joelgaines Revolutionary Healthcare Change - because it's all about you! http://blog.lifetimehealthdiary.com/tribe-revolution-whats/ #OwnYourData (twitter.com/_/status/516266139098550272)
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petermolnar although I'm at the indie side of many things, indiehealth sounds really, really bad
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@kirilind someone should tell all those people jumping to #ello that @withknown is what they're actually looking for :-) #ownyourdata #empowerment (twitter.com/_/status/516266747217727489)
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@pjesi RT @krynsky: Forget Ello. We need to support #indieweb friendly apps that are open source, de-centralized & can be self-hosted like @withkn… (twitter.com/_/status/516268712715124738)
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davidmead afternoon all. quick question: anyone else having issues with IndieWeb WP plugin by pfefferle?
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petermolnar hi
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petermolnar please define "issues"
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davidmead hi. since updating it I now have a lot of other indieweb plugins, but I’m also getting errors when publishing
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davidmead for instance… Warning: Missing argument 2 for it_publish() in /nfs/c03/h06/mnt/56448/domains/davidjohnmead.com/html/wp-content/plugins/indieweb-taxonomy-master/indieweb-taxonomy.php on line 35
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davidmead Warning: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /nfs/c03/h06/mnt/56448/domains/davidjohnmead.com/html/wp-content/plugins/indieweb-taxonomy-master/indieweb-taxonomy.php:35) in /nfs/c03/h06/mnt/56448/domains/davidjohnmead.com/html/wp-admin/post.php on line 233
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davidmead Warning: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /nfs/c03/h06/mnt/56448/domains/davidjohnmead.com/html/wp-content/plugins/indieweb-taxonomy-master/indieweb-taxonomy.php:35) in /nfs/c03/h06/mnt/56448/domains/davidjohnmead.com/html/wp-includes/pluggable.php on line 1173
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petermolnar the taxonomy plugin is alpha
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petermolnar it's not really ready for a user-friendly use
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davidmead oh i c. i didn’t see that mentioned when it asked to install the update
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petermolnar it's pulled from github, not wp, that is usually an indicator :)
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davidmead lol - i should have been paying closer attention. i just saw the update in my WP console and clicked
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davidmead maybe thats why the content of replies from twitter isn’t showing too
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davidmead i used to see if it was a like,retweet, or an actually reply
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davidmead now its just a generic “there was a reply from twitter"
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davidmead hard to know which one to reply back too
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petermolnar I had that issue, but that was with bridgy imho
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petermolnar check the comment by the id and see what the actual content it
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davidmead yea. i’m going to have to trim some of these plugins. i have the bridgy post url inserted into my page code, so if one of these new plugins also has it it could be a conflict
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davidmead i thought we were trying to make it easier ;-)
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petermolnar that's the long term goal :)
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@gunnarhafdal RT @krynsky: Forget Ello. We need to support #indieweb friendly apps that are open source, de-centralized & can be self-hosted like @withkn… (twitter.com/_/status/516275034856640512)
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@kevinmarks RT @kirilind: someone should tell all those people jumping to #ello that @withknown is what they're actually looking for :-) #ownyourdata #… (twitter.com/_/status/516278469781512193)
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kylewm petermolnar: davidmead: is "the IndieWeb plugin" the one that http://indiewebcamp.com/wordpress#webmention says not to use?
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@versoe RT @kirilind: someone should tell all those people jumping to #ello that @withknown is what they're actually looking for :-) #ownyourdata #… (twitter.com/_/status/516281367932723202)
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petermolnar that's out of date; that note was for 1.x, 2.0 is ok, I'll remove the warning
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petermolnar.eu edited /WordPress (-5) "/* webmention */" (view diff)
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GWG Did I see someone having issues with Indieweb Taxonomy?
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@VStheGODS @MisterRez b A N J O 10/10 "An indie masterpiece" -IndieWeb 10/10 "So artistic and beautiful" -IndieNow 5/10 "No ethnic characters" -Kotaku (twitter.com/_/status/516282401581191168)
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GWG You step away for an hour...
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petermolnar that was davidmead
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GWG petermolnar: I'm just happy someone is using it
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tantek ShaneHudson, delayed reply, the twitter hashtag search *URL* as it were. instead of some crappy query thing.
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tantek we need to somehow document the rackspace and aws downtimes / reboots happening and note summaries on the /web_hosting page
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bear.im edited /AWS (+183) "sept reboot downtime articles" (view diff)
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bear.im edited /AWS (+0) "/* Downtime */" (view diff)
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bear.im edited /AWS (+16) "add rackspace to the see also list" (view diff)
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tantek and on a third topic, back to webmention and spam - the more I think about it the more I keep coming back to trying a 3rd parameter, a URL, that "vouches" for the source.
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tantek i.e. if A is sending a webmention to B (who don't know each other, i.e. B has never linked to A), A sends along a third parameter, let's say "voucher=" (new name please) that includes a URL to C, which has a link to A (thus "vouching"), and B *has* linked to C in the past.
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tantek this way you push the work of 2nd degree trust discovery onto the *sender* of the webmention, rather than the receiver
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bear.im created /Rackspace (+416) "rackspace stub" (view diff)
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tantek this is merely a brainstorm at this point, however I plan on implementing it along with my webmention implementation
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bear that could with with a FOAF style signing
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bear I have you listed as a trusted source and in my list I included your auth token
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tantek bear - not sure that adds anything or is necessary. I'd like to build the simple thing first. before seeing if anything was/is necessary
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tantek also nothing based on invisible data (FOAF) should be used as a basis for anything
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tantek if you were to say visible XFN blogroll OTOH, then we might have a start
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bear thought that was simple
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tantek bear, nothing about FOAF is simple, nor is anything about "signing" simple
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bear yea, foaf was just a keyword to shortcut me having to explain a visible way of linking two trusted sources
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tantek and lastly, no matter how simple, anything *additional* should be avoided until there is a use-case that deems it necessary
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tantek following YAGNI principles
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tantek foaf has too much bag baggage to be a generic shortcut any more
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bear sure, but you said trust
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bear and that implies discovery and verification
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tantek trust means different things to different people
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tantek but you're right, I misspoke and used a loaded term
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bear if I want to accept webmentions because they include a marker from you - trust only has one meaning
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tantek so instead:
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tantek this way you push the work of 2nd degree link discovery onto the *sender* of the webmention, rather than the receiver
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tantek there, much simpler :)
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bear will wait for tantek to rediscover third party signing
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bear not saying that in any mean or bad way - sorry if it came across that way
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bear I am looking forward to seeing what flows you come up with
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tantek bear, is the signing necessary when a simple link will do?
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tantek a-ha! "what flows you come up with" <-- that is the right question. :)
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bear unless that link points to something I as the receiver can verify that both the sender and the person asking to vouch are who they say they are
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tantek you don't need identity, just a link from/to
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tantek as in , B->vouchlink->A
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bear in this realm a link within the domain space of a person *is* identity
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tantek it is, however there is no need for "who they say they are"
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bear if your sending a webmention to kevin with my link as a vouch it should be in the bear.im domain space
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tantek this is for the spam problem, not the spoofing problem
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tantek the spoofing problem is a separate problem and can happen independent of any spam problem
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tantek as has been demonstrated
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tantek when you say "my link as a vouch" that is redundant with "in the bear.im domain space"
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tantek the vouchlink can be *anything* that B links to, where the vouchlink *also* links to A
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bear is struggling with not going a layer deeper because crypto
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tantek does not matter who - i.e. I said nothing about the person
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tantek it's just a URL, that you retrieve, and check for links from
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tantek no crypto needed
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tantek or rather if you're worried about site-spoofing then the answer is /https
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tantek again, orthogonal
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bear i'm seeing what your describing... still have some concerns - but again, we need an implementation so we can discuss concrete points
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bear yea, https does solve the issue I was noodling over above
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bear yep - ok, looking forward to implementing your flow
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tantek looking forward to documenting it ;)
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bear right now I need to run the errands I was going to run tonight because rackspace still hasn't hit the majority of my servers ...
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bear going to be a long night
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@Mark_Cawley RT @kirilind: someone should tell all those people jumping to #ello that @withknown is what they're actually looking for :-) #ownyourdata #… (twitter.com/_/status/516290390509752322)
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@jsuttor RT @kirilind: someone should tell all those people jumping to #ello that @withknown is what they're actually looking for :-) #ownyourdata #… (twitter.com/_/status/516291471574843393)
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kylewm tantek: I like the idea of removing the receiver's burden to spider friends of friends, but how can the sender find such a vouch link?
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bret can't we just make it based on Loqi karma?
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rascul karma++
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Loqi karma has 16 karma
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rascul i don't know the context, i just thought it was a good idea to give karma some karma :)
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rascul goes back to beer and nascar
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bret is referrer data that browsers send important to the end user at all?
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@thierrymarianne RT @kirilind: someone should tell all those people jumping to #ello that @withknown is what they're actually looking for :-) #ownyourdata #… (twitter.com/_/status/516300483800363009)
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neuro` bret: can be when you're visiting sites that use tricks to prevents from hotlinking their images.
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@iamronen RT @kirilind: someone should tell all those people jumping to #ello that @withknown is what they're actually looking for :-) #ownyourdata #… (twitter.com/_/status/516305758720651264)
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tantek kylewm, re:how can the sender find such a vouch link? How do people in general explain how they know each other?
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tantek i.e. we can push this question off to arbitrary social sidebands of choice
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tantek the way people share links informally in all sorts of ways
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tantek in addition, since such social questions are of interest beyond commenting (as evidence by FB and other silo's showing how many friends in common you have and who they are), there's likely to be one or more aggregators that surface this information in some queryable way
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tantek.com edited /Rackspace (+48) "dfn, web hosting" (view diff)
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@petermolnar RT @kirilind: someone should tell all those people jumping to #ello that @withknown is what they're actually looking for :-) #ownyourdata #… (twitter.com/_/status/516310157203345409)
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tantek kylewm, e.g. someone might setup a service like say socialsearchme.com where you can put in your personal site, and see *who* has linked to you (most recently, most frequently), who you've linked to, the overlap
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tantek as well as how many and who you have in common
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gRegor` Any messages, Loqi?
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Loqi woot!
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gRegor` sweet
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tantek in which case, as a user, after commenting (and presumably having their "normal" webmention rejected), they could check a hypothetical service like socialsearchme.com for themselves, see that they'd linked to B, and then see how many (if any) people they have in common, especially, if there are any people that B has linked to that link to A, and if so, presto, that's a "vouch" URL.
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tantek this manual human step of checking, hey how do we know each other adds to the strength of the social tie between the commenter and the post author
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bret Are user pages written in 1st or 3rd person?
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tantek both
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@dissolve333 Test post, broke webmention when trying to make it not use [] for post values.. blame @kevinmarks (https://ben.thatmustbe.me/note/2014/9/28/13/_) (twitter.com/_/status/516317198617280512)
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ShaneHudson Just wondering, why does Loqi have to use dfn instead of first sentance?
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Loqi is done
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ben_thatmust haha, webmention sending now asyncronous
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Loqi ahahaha
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ben_thatmust must faster posting response
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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indie-visitor Nick tree
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ShaneHudson You need the / :)
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ben_thatmust_ Does Loqi follow "webmention" too
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ben.thatmustbe.me edited /User:Ben.thatmustbe.me (+62) "/* OpenBlog */ updated TODO list" (view diff)
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ben.thatmustbe.me edited /Micropub (+222) "/* IndieWeb Examples */" (view diff)
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@marialebarredo http://indiewebcamp.com/ http://learninglovers.wordpress.com/2014/09/28/245/ (twitter.com/_/status/516331482378293248)
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bret https://twitter.com/kyledrake/status/516322697966788610
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@kyledrake I just got an email requesting that Neocities support the Gopher protocol. (twitter.com/_/status/516322697966788610)
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KevinMarks Tantek is your vouch a "you may know me from…"?
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GWG You may know me from such Indiewebcamps as...?
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KartikPrabhu tantek_ how do I know if the voucher I received is legit. i.e. don't I have to verify that there is a link between sender and voucher ?
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: if I understand your question, that is the purpose of the vouch link, it's a URL of a permalink where a mutual friend links to the sender
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: but anyone can send me a webmention with voucher = kylewm , should I just trust that they know you? or do I go fishing in your friendslist to verify it?
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KartikPrabhu oh wait i see
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KartikPrabhu voucher=URL of the linking page ok
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KartikPrabhu yeah this is voucher thing will be hard
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ben_thatmust very interesting idea about this whole voucher bit
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KartikPrabhu why don't people worry about this for Twitter?
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kylewm because twitter is content to be a wild west of sockpuppets and spam porn bots?
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kylewm porn spam bots* spam porn bots would be something very different
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bear I don't think it will be hard per se
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bear since they are one direction and if the domain uses https, authenticated
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KartikPrabhu no it will be very hard for me to send a webmention to someone. If I want to send a mention to bear for the first time, I have to somehow get a list of people who have mentioned bear before (don't know how to do that spider all of bear's post comments?), and have previously mentioned me (spider my list of received mentions) and then create a voucher URL on match
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bear I don't think that is it
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bear you send a webmention to me along with a list of people who are vouching for you
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bear and if I trust that list, then I auto-add it
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bear "list of people" == urls
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KartikPrabhu bear: urls == url of someone else linking to me?
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bear someone who is in your list of people who vouch for you
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bear so if I was sending a webmention to tantek, I would give webmention info + url of my vouched-for list which would include you
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bear then tantek reads that url from me and decides if anyone in that list he trusts
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bear (at least that is how I'm understanding it) -- but it's still nebulous until tantek documents the flow
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KartikPrabhu hmm
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tantek reads logs since
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tantek vouch questions answered FIFO:
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tantek 1. KevinMarks: is your vouch a "you may know me from…"? Not quite. No assertion of "may" nor "know". Just a "here's someone's {C} (perma)link, you {B} have linked to {some URL at C's personal domain}, where {C} links to me {some URL at A's personal domain}
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tantek "
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tantek 2. KartikPrabhu "how do I know if the voucher I received is legit." you have to do 2 (relatively) simple checks. continued: "don't I have to verify that there is a link between sender and voucher" - in one direction only, that voucher URL links to sender's personal domain. that's the easy check. the harder check is you have verify that YOU link somewhere to voucher's personal domain (e.g. from your blogroll, whitelist, Twitter
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tantek followings, nicknames cache, outbound link cache)
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tantek 3. KartikPrabhu " but anyone can send me a webmention with voucher = kylewm, should I just trust that they know you?". No, no notion of "trust" needed. Just links. You MUST verify that "kylewm" (presumably a permalink at his site) links to the sender. continued: "or do I go fishing in your friendslist to verify it?" No. There is no need to crawl anywhere from the voucher URL.
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tantek 4. KartikPrabhu "this is voucher thing will be hard" Why? Please rephrase that in the form of a question that you think has a hard answer and I'll try to give you an easy answer :)
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tantek 5. KartikPrabhu "why don't people worry about this for Twitter?" They do. :) See Twitter silo mentions of my Twitter profile: https://twitter.com/search?f=realtime&q=%40t&src=typd
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tantek 6. bear: "they are one direction and if the domain uses https, authenticated" correct!
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tantek 7. KartikPrabhu: " If I want to send a mention to bear for the first time, I have to somehow get…" No let me stop you right there. The vouch protocol is a backwards compatible extension to webmmention. Step 1, you send a webmention as if you would today. Step 2. Perhaps the receiver is already a fan of yours (secretly, in their private whitelist, nicknames cache, etc.) and thus your webmention is accepted without any additional wor
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Loqi [mention] http://www.gregfalken.com/2014/09/owning-your-words/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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barnabywalters what is vouch?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "vouch" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=vouch
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tantek barnabywalters: right, I decided to bounce it off people in the channel first
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barnabywalters tantek: sounds like the vouch protocol is a useful extension for webmention
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barnabywalters makes perfect sense as part of a layered anti-spam, anti-abuse system
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barnabywalters it’s another data point for webmention endpoints/proxies to take into account
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barnabywalters e.g. a social graph crawling webmention proxy could, on an incoming webmention, go:
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barnabywalters 1) is the sender in my social graph? if so accept, otherwise:
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tantek 7.. continued: Step 3, if for any reason the receiver of your webmention does not want to accept it, e.g. they've never linked to you before (or you're not in their private whitelist, nicknames cache, Twitter followings - per rel-me consolidation identity equivalency etc.), the receiver rejects your webmention with a 400.
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barnabywalters 2) have they sent a vouch parameter? if so, check it, accept. otherwise:
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barnabywalters 3) have they sent a hashcash parameter? if so, accept, otherwise:
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barnabywalters 4) (etc)
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barnabywalters 5) last resort: add to a manual moderation list
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tantek 7.. continued: Step 4, at this point you may decide to send a webmention+vouch, in which case it is up to you, the sender of the webmention to find such a vouch URL and include it as the 3rd parameter in your resend of the webmention.
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KartikPrabhu tantek: yeah Step4 is not so easy now is it?
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tantek barnabywalters: I'm not convinced about hashcash - spammers have shown they're willing to spend non-trivial resources sending spam.
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KartikPrabhu in fact at that point I would just think, "ok rejected moiving on"
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tantek I would actually dump a webmention after vouch failing and leave it to the person to attempt a sideband communication (e.g. saying hi here in IRC)
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barnabywalters tantek: given that no-one’s actually implemented any of this yet, I’d be willing to actually try it out and see what happens in real life
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tantek or perhaps have them attempt a mention through Bridgy, POSSE copy to POSSE copy
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tantek which raises the bar again, as they have to put their POSSE profile at risk, which a real person is willing to do, but not many spammers are (and it raises the cost for them)
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barnabywalters but of course everyone could choose what works for them — another advantage to the many-layered approach
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tantek barnabywalters: yes, everyone can try what works for them - I'm merely indicating a minimum viable vouch approach.
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KevinMarks vouch can apply to a shared membership too? Eg irc-people or hwc, or xoxo?
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tantek continuing in order
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KevinMarks Saying "we're both members of this publicly defined group"
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KartikPrabhu but I am still confused as to how to find a vouch URL to send?
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tantek that was 8… responding to barnabywalters re: 1…5 steps, summary: only 1..2 are necessary for minimum viable vouch implementation.
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tantek 9. KartikPrabhu re: "Step4 [up to sender of the webmention to find a vouch URL] is not so easy now is it?" Unknown. For most conversations, e.g. people here in #indiewebcamp, I expect it will be trivial for you to find a URL just by checking the home page of the person you're trying to send a webmention to.
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KartikPrabhu yes but people I already know is not the problem
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bret.io edited /User:Bret.io (-38) "Updated my userpage" (view diff)
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KevinMarks So the vouch is a sponsor? It's like being an apprentice in iwc?
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tantek 10. KartikPrabhu: "in fact at that point I would just think, ok rejected moiving on" - for that reason it may be worth introducing a new explicit error value: "needs vouch". The closest HTTP status/error code for this is 412 Precondition Failed - the precondition being - the request lacked a "vouch" parameter.
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tantek 10.. continued: Thus upon receiving a 412, as the sender of the webmention *without* the vouch, you might say, oops the requester specifically wants a vouch, I'll go try again with a vouch.
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bret.io edited /User:Bret.io (-20) "Fixed headings" (view diff)
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KevinMarks I'm mentally rummaging through meanings here: vouch, sponsor, aegis, introducer,
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tantek 11. KevinMarks "vouch can apply to a shared membership too? Eg irc-people or hwc, or xoxo?" A vouch URL could be for example http://indiewebcamp.com/User:Kevinmarks.com, which obviously links to the domain(s) (known.)kevinmarks.com, and thus vouches for any permalinks at those domains. Then the receiver of the webmention has to decide, have I linked to indiewebcamp.com before (likely yes), ok I'll accept that site as a voucher, and
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tantek the specific vouch URL, and thus the webmention.
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tantek 12. KartikPrabhu "I am still confused as to how to find a vouch URL to send?" If you're already a reader of B's content (which you should be, since you're sending them a comment on one of their permalinks), then you should already be somewhat familiar with who they link to (or can quickly check their home page or recent posts for people). You should also be relatively familiar with who links to you (hint: your recent incoming webment
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tantek to *your* site).
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KartikPrabhu yeah so that makes the whole thing manual. no auto-sending mentions
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tantek 12. … thus with a quick look at B's home page (or recent posts) you should be able to trivially recognize oh hey there's someone that sent me a webmention recently, and go pull that out of *your* queue/history of recent webmentions, thus giving you vouch URL to use.
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KartikPrabhu this is making it too much work for sending...
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KartikPrabhu comapre to replying on Twitter
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tantek 13. KevinMarks "So the vouch is a sponsor?" No, the vouch is not a "sponsor" or any other new term. The vouch is *just* a (perma)link, which B has linked to the domain of previously, and which directly links to A's domain.
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barnabywalters kartikprabhu: I don’t know if that’s true. You’re asking a) for human attention and b) for the reciever to put your content on their site. Both non-trivial requests
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KartikPrabhu barnabywalters: same with twitter replies. they show up below my tweet
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tantek 14. KartikPrabhu "so that makes the whole thing manual. no auto-sending mentions". Not true. For example see 11 - it is likely your code can programmatically itself test indiewebcamp.com/irc-people and use it as a default vouch.
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KartikPrabhu tantek: again people I already know is not the issue
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KevinMarks Twitter replies have a show all/show those from people I follow toggle
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tantek 14.. continued: from there, you can decide how much intermediate UI you want to show, "The comment you sent is awaiting some form of vouching that they link to that links to you" with a URL field to enter. Plenty of opportunity to crawl, cache, innovate there. PLENTY.
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks: those are only show/hide. when I send a reply, i don't get "oops go find someone you both know"
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tantek 15. KartikPrabhu "this is making it too much work for sending…" maybe. won't know until I (or others) attempt to implement and see what roadblocks we run into.
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Loqi that doesn't make sense
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barnabywalters kartikprabhu: twitter has a huge shared spam list (and it’s worth noting that even that is often not successful)
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KevinMarks How you respond to webmentions is already up to you
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tantek 16. KartikPrabhu "compare to replying on Twitter" - compare to replying on Twitter to someone who has blocked you. Compare the noise of @-replies on Twitter to *any* permalink from *any* celebrity. All filled with crap. Often worse than YouTube comments.
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KevinMarks This is a way to change default processing
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tantek 16… continued - Twitter is a lost cause in terms of reply quality. Nevermind the nonsensical twitter arguments/fights that otherwise intelligent people get into.
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KevinMarks Not all twitter arguments: https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/516294932940595200
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@kevinmarks @BenedictEvans @fmanjoo @janwinter15 there is the commoditize your complements pattern there. See @maradydd on this https://medium.com/@maradydd/how-i-explained-heartbleed-to-my-therapist-4c1dbcbe1099 (twitter.com/_/status/516294932940595200)
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tantek 17. KevinMarks "Twitter replies have a show all/show those from people I follow toggle" I see no such toggle, neither on my tweet permalinks, nor on others. For an example of poor conversation, e.g. see replies here: https://twitter.com/WhiteHouse/status/516248523096866816
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@WhiteHouse "We’re deploying our doctors and scientists—supported by our military—to help corral the outbreak." —Obama on Ebola: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0T_Jv4Kbgek (twitter.com/_/status/516248523096866816)
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tantek Ok I think I'm caught up :) Thanks for all the questions/challenges everyone.
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KartikPrabhu in this vouch model an interaction like this: https://twitter.com/kartik_prabhu/status/516168689549193217 would never happen. I don't know any one who know Erik Spiekermann
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@kartik_prabhu too many beautiful and insightful sentiments from @espiekermann to count. Absolutely love it. http://vimeo.com/95682050 (twitter.com/_/status/516168689549193217)
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KartikPrabhu interaction = retweet by spiekermann
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KartikPrabhu #notallfamouspeople
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tantek KartikPrabhu: in general my goal with "vouch" (seriously, feel free to suggest a better name) was something *easy* for the *receiver* to process. Putting more burden on the sender IMO is the right principle/approach given how *less* burden on the sender turned out for email/trackback/pingback.
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barnabywalters kartikprabhu: so you could choose to put that webmention in a human moderation queue (as per my flow above)
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barnabywalters I see things like this as ways of automating moderation, with actual moderation as a last-resort fallback
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KartikPrabhu barnabywalters: one could do human moderation without this vouch thingy too
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KartikPrabhu i don't know what the vouch model adds
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tantek I'm determined to build a system (at least for myself) with zero moderation tax.
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tantek I don't have time nor inclination to read through all the crap that gets stuck in moderation - from experience moderating comments on microformats.org.
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barnabywalters kartikprabhu: of course, things like vouch, hashcash, social graph crawling etc. remove the need for vast amounts of moderation
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tantek you may choose to do so yourself, but it should be a choice. I shouldn't *have to* moderate.
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barnabywalters leaving the rest to do manually, or ignore
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barnabywalters human moderation with some spam prevention is the existing status quo (see: wordpress)
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barnabywalters all of these other spam prevention/blacklisting etc. ideas simply layer on top of the existing methods, making them less and less work
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barnabywalters it’s progressive enhancement of comment moderation
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KartikPrabhu do people go back and see if their comment was accepted by moderator?
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ben_thatmust well at some point someone has to say yes or no, it can't be all automated
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barnabywalters kartikprabhu: I believe aaronpk has implemented async webmentions, with a status page which indicates the status of acceptance
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ben_thatmust i think the goal is to make that as minimal as possible for those that choose to moderate.
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KartikPrabhu yes, but does anyone go back to see the result of moderation, even in traditional comment forms?
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tantek KartikPrabhu: I don't understand what your example of https://twitter.com/kartik_prabhu/status/516168689549193217 demonstrates. I
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@kartik_prabhu too many beautiful and insightful sentiments from @espiekermann to count. Absolutely love it. http://vimeo.com/95682050 (twitter.com/_/status/516168689549193217)
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tantek see that you mentioned *his twitter* and linked to *vimeo* - neither of which accept webmentions.
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KartikPrabhu tantek: if Erik had said "i don't know you, go find someone to vouch for you before I read your tweet" what would I do?
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ben_thatmust barnabywalters, kartikprabhu, I implemented a status of acceptance in the webmention receivers on openblog i just never turned on moderation (or had a UI) in theory its the exact same its just automatically setting to accept now
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KartikPrabhu tantek: this is not webmention specific. just some interaction that would fail if it happened through webmention+vouch model
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tantek KartikPrabhu: that thing I said before about using POSSE copy to POSSE copy threading to bootstrap
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tantek just as we have use POSSE/Bridgy to bootstrap interactions with people stuck on silos
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tantek we can use silo's own weaker mention policies to bootstrap into our indieweb 2nd degree
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KartikPrabhu tantek: no. assume that this was not happening on Twitter but on indiewebsites.
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tantek KartikPrabhu: yes that's my point. assume that it's happening on indieweb sites
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tantek and that you're both POSSEing to Twitter
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KevinMarks This is a solution to the sea lion problem
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tantek and that you're both supporting rel=syndication (including discovery), and original post discovery
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gRegor` what is the sea lion problem?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "the sea lion problem" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=the+sea+lion+problem
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tantek KartikPrabhu, your indieweb post webmention to his webmention post *fails* because he doesn't know you, HOWEVER
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KartikPrabhu so what's the point? if my mention goes through Twitter anyway
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tantek your indieweb post's POSSE tweet copy @-mentions his Twitter profile, through which he he does original post discovery on your post and then can add it that way.
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KartikPrabhu I'll just go an interact with him on Twitter then.
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tantek the point is that Twitter becomes just an ephemeral step in indieweb to indieweb mention recognition
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tantek purely mechanically
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KartikPrabhu tantek: why is going through Twitter more legit than sending a webmention?
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tantek your site automatically POSSEs, his site automatically does original post discovery
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tantek rather than "just go an interact with him on Twitter"
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KartikPrabhu so POSSE becomes more mandatory
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tantek no, fallbck
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tantek as they are already today
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KartikPrabhu what if I don't POSSE
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tantek because not everyone has their own network
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tantek KartikPrabhu: irrelevant - you do POSSE.
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KartikPrabhu you are saying, even if 2 people have indiewebsites for some intereactions they need to have silo accounts and POSSE to them
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tantek we can ignore worrying about such "what ifs" until we have real world implementations and real world comments to test.
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KartikPrabhu <shrugs>
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KartikPrabhu this whole spam is not real world yet
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tantek KartikPrabhu: it is, my webmentions queued in webmention.io are filled with spam
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tantek due to Twitter spammers @-replying me
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KevinMarks http://wondermark.com/1k62/ is the sea lion problem
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KartikPrabhu well so going throiugh Twitter did not help either then :P
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tantek so I personally (itch) have no choice here - I *have to* solve the webmention spam problem before I can even deploy it :/
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tantek no "either then" - different scenario
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KartikPrabhu so you will filter out any Twitter @-mention from people you don't know
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tantek first scenario was indieweb->POSSE copy->POSSE copy->Indieweb
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tantek this second scenario is purely indieweb->POSSE copy->silo reply
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@maymaymx For those into #POSSE content workflows and/or #IndieWeb thingies, I finally added Publicize support to WP-Crosspost https://wordpress.org/plugins/wp-crosspost/ (twitter.com/_/status/516370842427854851)
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tantek don't conflate them
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gRegor` KevinMarks: That is hilarious. Love it.
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KartikPrabhu not conflating. vouch model makes both of these very complicated to handle
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tantek I still don't understand *what* in particular you think is "complicated"
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tantek pretty sure I've explained simply how to implement receiving vouches
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tantek and sending vouches depends merely on the human/UI of picking a vouch URL
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tantek which I think is a reasonable burden to place on a sender
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tantek especially since for now, we're small enough as a community that anyone can add themselves to indiewebcamp.com/irc-people
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tantek that's not complicated
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tantek nor hard
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KartikPrabhu <shrug> if you don't mind many people not doing the second step even if their comment is legit, then its fine
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KartikPrabhu I wouldn't bother for instance
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tantek sure, adoption (by both sides) is an unkown
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tantek you wouldn't bother checking for vouch or sending vouch?
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gRegor` So if A mentions B, and B says "I need a vouch", but you have no vouch in common with B, you use the POSSE copy as a fallback, correct?
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KartikPrabhu gRegor`: who uses POSSE fallback?
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tantek gRegor`: I'm fairly disbelieving in "you have no vouch in common with B", I bet you could even crowd source it here in the channel
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KevinMarks Would your twitter followings be an implicit vouch for webmentions POSSEd by bridgy?
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KartikPrabhu tantek: hence I gave the Spiekermann example.
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tantek KevinMarks: you could choose to treat them that way. that's one of the methods I mentioned above.
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Loqi [mention] http://dblogit.com/2014/08/30/repost/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/fragmention (pingback)
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@maymaym RT @maymaymx: For those into #POSSE content workflows and/or #IndieWeb thingies, I finally added Publicize support to WP-Crosspost https://… (twitter.com/_/status/516372324539723776)
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gRegor` tantek: Someone sets up a withknown.com site and we have no interactions or mutual friends. Seems it could become pretty common.
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tantek gRegor`: I am going to predict that the first widescale webmention spammer we are going to see will be from a withknown site.
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KartikPrabhu this is all fine and good, if you already are in the same extended circle
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gRegor` KartikPrabhu: By "POSSE fallback" I mean since B won't get your webmention, they will see your POSSE copy mention instead. I'm not sure I'm full understanding this vouching conversation though, so just asking questions.
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KartikPrabhu gRegor`: but they don't know me on twitter either but they accept Twitter copy.... this seems weird
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tantek KartikPrabhu: another way of putting this is that vouch URL discovery (finding vouch URLs between you and some other person) will be a source of a lot of innovation, search, crawling, indexing, caching etc.
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KartikPrabhu that is what I don't understand
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tantek and that's a *good thing*
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gRegor` Unless they're private or have you blocked on twitter, there is no "accepting" you. They just get a mention, plain and simple.
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tantek right, maybe they're ok with the silo profiles being more spammy
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tantek than their own personal site
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tantek that's fine, we aim for higher quality on the indieweb
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tantek if spammers resort to only using silos, then we've won
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gRegor` So if my understanding so far is correct, in that situation, how do A and B get to a point where the webmention can be sent and vouched? Will B have to manually add A to his approved senders / nickname cache / whatever first?
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tantek gRegor`: that's part of the beauty of it - that's up to B to decide, thus making it opaque to spammers, thus making any generic/global approach not scale, thus making it uneconomical to spam.
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gRegor` Sure
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gRegor` tantek: Out of curiosity, is a lot of your webmention.io junk from people mis-typing a twitter name? I know @justin gets a lot of mis-addressed tweets like "@justin bieber" heh
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tantek gRegor`: no bridgy doesn't send those.
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tantek only @-replies to actual tweets
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tantek which have a in_reply_to_status_id set on them
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gRegor` Ah, right
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KevinMarks That is a big defect in twitter
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tantek KartikPrabhu: btw, when people don't have webmentions show up (due to any kind of rejection) they will do what they do today
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tantek they come here to IRC
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KevinMarks (twitter as it is now)
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tantek and say hey I tried webmentioning so and so
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tantek did you get my webmention?
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tantek etc.
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tantek the last fallback will be human-to-human, actual social networking
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tantek which is just fine
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gRegor` I will be interested in seeing vouching implemented. I think it will help me understand it better.
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KartikPrabhu heh most Known signees aren't even on the IRC, i doubt more people will be
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KevinMarks Check out @samusclone's Tweet: https://twitter.com/samusclone/status/515553801173209088
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@samusclone ello implemented the ability to reply to someone BEFORE implementing blocking, which is a fun "how to tell men designed this" game (twitter.com/_/status/515553801173209088)
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KartikPrabhu stays out of the "men did this" game
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gRegor` Heh, yeah. Not sure most withknown.com users know what webmention is, or that they can comment on other non-known, non-silo sites. E.g. this thread with my firend Scott https://twitter.com/gRegorLove/status/512650030184804352
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@gRegorLove @itsscottwilder If you have @withknown set up, try posting a status in reply to http://gregorlove.com/2014/02/1180/ and it will show up there. #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/512650030184804352)
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barnabywalters wrt blocking, I’m a little stumped as to how to implement it effectively in shrewdness
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gRegor` I have some Ello invites, by the way, if anyone would like to check it out.
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KartikPrabhu gRegor`: yup. so if webmention is rejected people will ask here is not right
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gRegor` (Scott's reply to my note up there was "really?")
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barnabywalters hiding anything matching a domain or domain+path is easy enough, but what about other cases like POSSE copies and reposts on other sites
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barnabywalters or, for example, people quoting blocked people’s content without linking to it in e.g. u-in-reply-to
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barnabywalters if I block troll.com, should a post from one of my friends which links to troll.com be shown?
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barnabywalters wonders
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barnabywalters argh
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barnabywalters wondering if erinjo/benwerd have done any user research in this area