#indiewebcamp 2014-10-05

2014-10-05 UTC
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tantek.com
edited /Disqus (+183) "/* Criticism */ spam per Twitter cite"
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GWG
I have returned and I have resumed food intake
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GWG
tantek: I'm looking at your POSSE to Wordpress wiki additions
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GWG
tantek: If the WordPress site does add Webmention support, it will happen automatically though, but like with many things, you can't count on that.
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GWG
Wonder suddenly if trying to get webmentions support into Core Wordpress is a viable option
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tantek
GWG - that's the fastest path to getting webmention spam to happen.
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GWG
tantek: So, what is the solution?
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tantek
what's the problem you are trying to solve?
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GWG
tantek: You added notes to the wiki on manually POSSEing to WordPress sites, of which there are many
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GWG
I commented that if Webmentions were supported, which is currently possible through a plugin, no manual process would be required.
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tantek
indeed, and an incrementally better solution would be using a proxy to do so, hence the Bridgy Publish feature request.
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tantek
that's in my POSSE to Wordpress wiki additions
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GWG
I then wondered if there was a case for getting it baked into WordPress
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GWG
You commented that was a fast way to spam
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GWG
The question I'm now wondering is...isn't that inevitable once you go mainstream with anything?
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tantek
correct, that is a flaw in "getting it baked into WordPress"
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GWG
tantek: Isn't there a positive as well?
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tantek
GWG, I still don't understand what problem *you* are trying to solve.
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GWG
tantek: I want to talk to more people?
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GWG
Lowering the barrier to people commenting on what I have to say and vice-versa.
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GWG
My goal is always to have more interesting dialogue.
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tantek
POSSE+backfeed solve that problem with existing systems, a much lower barrier than anything to do with WordPress
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tantek
GWG - but your questions are good ones, and illustrate that /backfeed is insufficiently documented to make this clear
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GWG
tantek: For now, I'll move on from that. Other things to think of
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tantek
GWG, I'm writing up /backfeed#Why right now thanks to you.
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tantek
it was missing for far too long
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GWG
tantek: I think of the question of submitting webmentions for comments in the context of the recent interest in Known
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GWG
People liked all the features in that areas they saw, and we got people who, hopefully, hang around beyond the initial excitement.
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GWG
I'm worried about spam too, which you brought up, because I've dealt with pingback etc. on that.
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GWG
I'm looking forward to reading the why.
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tantek
GWG, right now we're making progress with webmention because of deliberate slow organic growth, which gives us time to react and iterate.
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GWG
tantek: So, the concern is that a massive influx will overwhelm growth? Hmmm...
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tantek
no. it creates a larger target for spam. when that target becomes big enough to be worth attacking, the spam will happen, first in a trickle, and then all at once.
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GWG
And we aren't ready for it?
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tantek
no we are not. that should be obvious. there is no mechanism preventing existing pingback spammers from also spamming webmention. the only barrier is a bit more endpoint discovery code, and a bit easy microformats markup.
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GWG
I'm agreeing with you on that.
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tantek
the adoption spike of Known has already greatly accelerated our previously somewhat linear organic growth, hence why i spent some time refining my thoughts on an improved webmention and brainstormed the vouch protocol directly into IRC rather than spending the time doing a longer write-up.
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tantek
anyway - I believe I am repeating what is already documented on /spam - perhaps re-read that?
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GWG
I read it
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tantek
if not, then we can add your questions and these answers as more FAQ
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GWG
While we were discussingb
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acegiak
tantek: I have the first stage of my whitelist plugin for wordpress nearly done
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acegiak
once we have vouching a bit more working I'll update it to allow for that
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GWG
acegiak: Looking forward to seeing more of that.
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GWG
acegiak: Are you writing it as an extension to the Comment system or independently?
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acegiak
GWG: It's just filtering the comments based on whether the url is in bookmarks at the moment
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acegiak
next step is to create an xfn tree and have it's depth be configurable
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GWG
acegiak: Look at a hook called wp_allow_comment
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GWG
acegiak: Also there is a filter called pre_comment_approved
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GWG
acegiak: At what level is it filtering?
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GWG
acegiak: Which bookmarks also?
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aaronpk_
thinking we need a way for micropub clients to query the capabilities of a micropub endpoint
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tantek
oh dear - be careful with that line of thinking, be very deliberate with your documentation of use-cases or else you will end up down the dark path of reinventing WSDL
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tantek
"capabilities" is the trigger word there
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aaronpk_
this did come up within 5 minutes of starting to write a new micropub client
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GWG
aaronpk_: What happens when you query a MicroPub endpoint?
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aaronpk_
but I will keep developing before exploring this further
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tantek
aaronpk - the other path of thinking is well designed fall backs, e.g. like CSS.
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tantek
and HTML for that matter
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tantek
harder to design, but much more reliable to use
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tantek.com
edited /backfeed (+1500) "rewrite and re-organize why and how approaches"
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aaronpk_
may be possible to use "scope" for this
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aaronpk_
a micropub client requests the scope of "post-food" and if the token includes that scope then it can be assumed that the micropub endpoint knows how to handle creating posts of that type. if the token is granted with a scope that does not include the requested one, then the endpoint doesn't support it
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tantek
that makes a lot of sense
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aaronpk_
that also builds in the ability for someone to not grant requested scopes to a client even if it was possible for the endpoint to support it.
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aaronpk_
like benwerd's "checkboxes, bitches" UI mockup
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aaronpk_
benward*
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aaronpk_
but every authorization server should implement that kind of thing. I'll just implement it on indieauth.com as a reference
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tantek
what is OAuth?
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Loqi
OAuth is an authorization protocol created to replace the need for client applications of a service (e.g http://indiewebcamp.com/oauth
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aaronpk_
ha summary fail
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aaronparecki.com
edited /OAuth (+31) "explicit p-summary"
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aaronpk_
what is oauth?
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Loqi
OAuth is an authorization protocol created to replace the need for client applications of a service (e.g. a silo) to ask for your username and password to the service in order to access the service on your behalf http://indiewebcamp.com/oauth
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tantek.com
edited /OAuth (+458) "UI ideas - checkboxes, benward post"
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tantek
phew no edit collision :)
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tantek.com
edited /pingback (+244) "add projects section with link to webmention.io github for handling pingbacks. makes more sense here than in backfeed see also."
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tantek.com
edited /comment (+168) "/* Comments Embeds */ move Juvia here where it makes more sense than in backfeed see also"
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KevinMarks_
Did benward get to ship that yet?
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aaronpk_
no :( Facebook beat him to it
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aaronpk_
sort of
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tantek
Twitter never did ship that which Ben invented independently which got him interviewed/hired there.
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aaronpk_
tantek: I can't read the link! "Error establishing a database connection"
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tantek
what is db-ap?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "db-ap" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=db-ap
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tantek.com
created /db-ap (+34) "r shorthand"
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tantek.com
created /dbap (+34) "r even shorter"
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tantek.com
edited /POSSE (+717) "/* Background */ note arrows out = POSSE, in = backfeed, 2011 IndieWebCamp session, related POSE term"
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tantek
I'm pretty sure barnabywalters proposed the term "backfeed", but no amount of Google searching, nor waterpigs.co.uk searching finds anything earlier than 2013-06-30
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tantek
anybody have a citation to where barnabywalters first proposed the term backfeed?
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aaronpk_
weird! I kind of remember that too!
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aaronpk_
from 2012-06-10
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tantek.com
edited /backfeed (+419) "add Background, cleanup See Also: move low relevance links to more appropriate pages"
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tantek
that will have to do as an earliest reference to the term then
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tantek
and searching IRC logs via twitter is useless for time-window based searching
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tantek
I mean via Google
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tantek.com
edited /timeline (+166) "/* 2010 */ 2010-02-03 backfeed concept as reverse syndication"
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tantek.com
edited /timeline (+135) "/* 2012 */ 2012-06-10 backfeed term proposed by barnaby with the creation of the backfeed page"
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tantek
The other term I can't seem to find an originating definition for is POSE - one of the related predecessors to POSSE: "POSE" - Publish Once Syndicate Everywhere
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tantek
the only permalink I could find was my own, discussing how POSSE was better than POSE: http://tantek.com/2012/173/t1/posse-core-indieweb-approach
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tantek
what is POSE?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "POSE" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=POSE
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@thursdayschild
@nicopolitan My biggest Ghost thing now is comments. Disqus and Muut work, but I don't like either. I'd like to integrate Webmention, though
(twitter.com/_/status/518592596848181250)
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tantek.com
created /POSE (+1410) "stub with historical articles for reference and historical context"
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tantek
perhaps someone in the Ghost community will actually get some indieweb interop working. there's hope.
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aaronpk_
I would like to think so too
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tantek
which means there's a chance of piercing the Ghost monoculture
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tantek
darn quotes
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tantek.com
edited /database-antipattern (+306) "/* DB connection loss */ another better search - for sites indexed as "Database Error" "Error establishing a database connection""
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aaronpk_
whoa hello html
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aaronpk_
or css rather
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KevinMarks__
thoughts on this post?
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aaronpk_
I see a bunch of CSS
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KevinMarks__
pages benwerd
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tantek.com
edited /database-antipattern (+457) "/* DB connection loss */ note specific example found today during unrelated google search, quote the boilerplate error markup that comes back"
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KevinMarks__
I try using the editor adn this happens
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KevinMarks__
back to handmade html
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tantek
which editor?
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KevinMarks__
the one built into known
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KevinMarks__
I did paste into it from gdocs
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KevinMarks__
OK, that's closer
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KevinMarks__
still one bad link
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jdp23
it's tough without a preview function. i wound up setting up a separate private known site just so i could preview things there :-|
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aaronpk_
wow that'd good feedback jdp23
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KevinMarks__
yes, that is a problem
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KevinMarks__
ah, it doesn'tliek my archive.org url
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xxcoeurxx
is there an implementation of webmentions ?
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KevinMarks__
known has one, for example
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xxcoeurxx
excellent.
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xxcoeurxx
i'll see if i can whip together something for ghost.
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KevinMarks__
OK, please read that post now and tell me if there's anything up with it. I'm about to manually POSSE to my main site, my blog and medium
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KevinMarks__
ooh, that would be nice xxcoeurxx
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jdp23
looks good to me Kevin
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xxcoeurxx
you know KevinMarks__ you need my "charybdis happens" tee ;p
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KevinMarks__
so, do I post this on ello as well?
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aaronpk_
what is POSE?
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Loqi
POSE is an acronym for "Publish Once Syndicate Everywhere" which is conceptually similar to but looser than POSSE, which asserts that the "once" be on your "own site" http://indiewebcamp.com/POSE
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xxcoeurxx
KevinMarks__: yeah
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KevinMarks__
It's on my site
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xxcoeurxx
quote the best part, provide a sourcelink :)
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xxcoeurxx
like the olden days of twitter.
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xxcoeurxx
(btw i reactivated my old twitter to post an update about the new twitter acct)
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KevinMarks__
isn't ello supposed to allow longform?
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jdp23
ello does allow long form but when i did a longish blog post i wound up just summarizing on ello -- https://ello.co/jdp23/post/fvam60wGRCqcX3ONnFBEqQ
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aaronpk_
has anyone seen any docs on getting Known to work with a shared host that runs cpanel?
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KevinMarks__
so, ello or medium as my next POSSE target
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KevinMarks__
people using bread emoji for like on Known: https://ello.co/budnitz/post/F4Nwcnkjv-lwXimAk7EYPg
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KevinMarks__
er, on ello
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tantek
KevinMarks: that's a good "rise and fall of Twitter" post
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KevinMarks__
it's the one I've been meaning to write for a couple of months
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KevinMarks__
and I had a long wait at the barbers today, so I wrote it
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tantek
but what if you're lowcarb or paleo? :P
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KevinMarks__
then use a steak
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aaronpk_
what if you're vegetarian
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tantek
pretty sure the :name: syntax is just markdown for emoji in general
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jdp23
:tofu:
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aaronpk_
:tempeh:
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KevinMarks__
there are in fact lots of japanese food emoji
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jdp23
:sushi:
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KevinMarks__
for obvious reasons
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KevinMarks__
but no cheese
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aaronpk_
sadly no :taco:
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jdp23
it'd be great to convert the emoji in the transcripts
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aaronpk_
it could be done. there is an open source emoji artwork library now
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jdp23
yeah i saw that, very cool
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tantek
I predict the demise of :bread: , replaced with :heart: ♥ and :+1: 👍
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jdp23
it's hard to know. on The Tapestries, we introduced the non-standard emoji :muffin: and it totally caught on
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tantek
as already in use on that very budnitz post KevinMarks
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tantek
jdp23 clever. a non-standard emoji has artificial scarcity and thus greater implied value not to mention novelty.
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jdp23
plus, people like muffins :)
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jdp23
i was disappointed that there doesn't seem to be a good jquery emoji palette implemetnation out there ...
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jdp23
KevinMarks__ on a different subject how much have you gotten involved with Quirell?
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KevinMarks__
I've joined in the discussions, which is all there is so far, trying to point out prior work they might find useful
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KevinMarks__
they have very specific requirements we need to listen to as part of general protocol design
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tantek
what is Quirell?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "Quirell" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Quirell
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jdp23
yeah they're certainly thinking about a lot of things that most social networks don't
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KevinMarks__
if ello is just markdown, can I paste in some html?
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tantek
depends on the flavor of markdown ;)
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tantek
KevinMarks - what's the use-case?
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KevinMarks__
manual POSSE
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KevinMarks__
looks liek it works
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jdp23
no, ello's markdown doesn't handle HTML
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jdp23
or at least it didn't for me
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tantek
KevinMarks: I think I'm not seeing the "blowing up your phone" notifications problem because I saw it before anyone else did - with all the false references to @t - and thus turned everything off long ago - abusive or not.
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tantek
is there a canary emoji?
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KevinMarks__
didn't I link it?
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tantek
yes you did - I just read it
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KevinMarks__
tantek++ for reading the links
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Loqi
tantek has 91 karma
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tantek
ah you linked to Quirell
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tantek
governance-antipattern: when you spend time discussing governance. especially before launching. See also: http://tantek.com/w/TrollTaxonomy#Bureaucracytroll
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jdp23
it can be an antipattern -- but so can failing to discuss governance
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tantek
jdp23 - that's what CC0 is for.
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tantek
and selfdogfooding and scratching your own itch
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KevinMarks__
Lynn is trying to collect the group first
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jdp23
yeah. i think when you come at it from a social justice perspective those things are critical to discuss up front
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tantek
jdp23 - disagree completely. perhaps a social justice *theory* perspective. vs. social justice *action* perspective
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@OfficialQuirell
Spread the word, yall. @CollectQT's Quirell social network now has an official twitter.
(twitter.com/_/status/518127765032550403)
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KevinMarks__
wonders how rel="syndication" helps when I make this many copies
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tantek
KevinMarks, jdp23 I predict the first thing "shipped" will be … a manifesto
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KevinMarks__
alo I need to propagate the syndication links between the copies too
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jdp23
my guess is that every single person considering getting involved in Quirell (or any similar project) will ahve significant questions about governance.
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tantek
jdp23 - I suppose we reject the assumption therein - that you would need to submit to a centralized site that would require governance.
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jdp23
there's nothing the matter with starting with a manifesto
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tantek
jdp23 - it's a methodology with a bad track record, plenty the matter.
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KevinMarks__
I'm not going to tell them how ot run their project; I am goign to try to keep up with ti and point to work here and elsewhere that they might be interested in
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jdp23
KevinMarks++
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Loqi
KevinMarks has 63 karma
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tantek
KevinMarks: of course not. Have you asked questions? Like why assume a centralized service at all?
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jdp23
tantek every single methodology out there has a bad track record. most programming projects fail. most social network projects fail to get to critical mass. most social network projects that do get to critical mass then turn sour in some way.
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KevinMarks__
they didn't start with governance, lynn is using the issues as a discussion board
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tantek
jdp23 - disagreed. scratching your own itch has an excellent track record, especially when you look at the sites that end up successful.
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bret.io
edited /Homebrew_Website_Club (+12) "/* Established Meetings */ Added myself"
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@RichieMerritt
• Implementing more IndieWeb scripts to my blog :) #IndieWeb #POSSE #WebMentions #BackFeed #Stream â–ºCoding & Designing since '96 biatches
(twitter.com/_/status/518627782046142464)
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jdp23
well, i think the Quirell folks are definitely scratching their own itch
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tantek
then that's the good sign.
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jdp23
other than dreamwidth i have a nard time thinknig of any other social network that has a queer/trans positive feel
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jdp23
(well and The Tapestries of course. but with only a handful of users that doesn't count)
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tantek
jdp23 what about your own personal site?
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bret
(or primary social presence online)
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KevinMarks__
tantek, where are you HWCing this week?
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tantek
KevinMarks I see you're behind on the logs ;)
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jdp23
yes the social network i'm prototyping is very queer/trans positive -- and diversity-friendly in general.
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tantek
jdp23++
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Loqi
jdp23 has 2 karma
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tantek
KevinMarks: I'm not behind. The state of that link is accurate to the present.
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bret
speaking of which, we need to get pdx hwc together... better monday than wed :0
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KevinMarks__
I saw you were unavailable, I wondered if you were in some other city
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tantek
I'll be in Brooklyn for Beta
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jdp23
tantek i can co-host it with kylewm -- i saw the discussion of options for a place
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bret
What is beta?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "beta" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=beta
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tantek
jdp23 - that would be great!
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KevinMarks__
so are you doing a HWC brooklyn?
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KevinMarks__
I bet you could get deanna to find locals
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bret
also brian?
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tantek
possibly - since they don't show up here frequently / responsively, I don't hold out much hope on organizing.
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tantek
the home page of http://collectqt.herokuapp.com/ is far more interesting that the Twitter - which I suppose is a good sign (rather than vice versa)
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tantek
KevinMarks: you linked the phrase "phone becomes useless " to a tweet that is about "***OSX*** Twitter client crashing/lagging repeatedly. Too many tweets." - what phones do you know of that run OSX?
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KevinMarks__
posts my syndicated post as a comment
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tantek
indeed
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jdp23
so what's the protocol for the HWC invitation: should I create an event on my blog, and then POSSE to Facebook?
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tantek
jdp23 - ideal but not required
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jdp23
i was basically just going to mirror benwerd's from a month ago
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jdp23
<--- a skilled mimic
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tantek
I'd say once you agree on a location with kylewm, then yes - go ahead and post an indie event and manually POSSE it to a public FB event.
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tantek
skilledmimic++
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Loqi
skilledmimic has 1 karma
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KevinMarks__
that's good in terms of demoing RSVP posse
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tantek
KevinMarks - Bridgy Publish does RSVP POSSE for you!
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tantek
jdp23 - one way to avoid governance is by empowering everyone to have sovreignty over their own identity and data by using their own sites.
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KevinMarks
Support for your anti manifesto stance? Check out @timoreilly's Tweet: https://twitter.com/timoreilly/status/518597151652196352
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@timoreilly
"There are too many abstract conversations." @MTBracken's " Show the thing" is the key to social change, says @pahlkadot at #ybca
(twitter.com/_/status/518597151652196352)
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tantek
KevinMarks - exactly. same reason why you're not going to email yourself into building a website.
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KevinMarks__
realises that posting after midnight east coast time on a saturday is not really optimal for discussion
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tantek
KevinMarks - unless by "discussion" you mean "reactions" on "Twitter", and in that case, I'd say you certainly made that happy the other day with your citation of DBAP.
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tantek
s/happy/happen
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: KevinMarks - unless by "discussion" you mean "reactions" on "Twitter", and in that case, I'd say you certainly made that happen the other day with your citation of DBAP.
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KevinMarks__
so I need to send inflammatory hashtags about code to feminists again?
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KevinMarks__
or I need to add an eyecatching image to the post and share it on facebok
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jdp23
so i need to create an event on known, manually posse it to Facebook, and then make a separate status post on known to get it syndicated?
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tantek
imagines some mashup image between Angry Birds and the Twitter logo
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tantek
jdp23 - I believe you can edit the event on known somehow to get the "Also on Facebook" link to your manually POSSE copy
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tantek
if you do get it to work, likely worth documenting on /Known :)
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jdp23
and tantek have you ever read The Tyranny of Structuralessness?
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jdp23
in terms of avoiding governance by empowering everybody to have sovereignty ... there's circularity here. who writes the software that enables everybody to do this? who owns the copyrights and trademarks? what's the governance model for that group?
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tantek
1. software? hence empower everyone to do so. 2. owns copyrights? hence CC0. 3. governance? fork / submit pull request / move on.
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KevinMarks__
if you link to the known event from the FB one, bridgy will webmention the RSVPs over
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tantek
jdp23 - I put forth BarCamp as a real world counter-example that disproves the premises in The Tyranny of Structuralessness
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tantek
jdp23: looks good - needs location :)
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jdp23
right. on the wiki i talked about the place in the Westfield maill as a possibility
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jdp23
i'm hoping people have some input over the next few days
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tantek
jdp23 - I for one have tired of long prose with assertions without citations. If there's anything the web has given us, and URLs, it's the ability to form *better* arguments with citations, rather than "take my word for it" logical reasoning / handwaving.
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tantek
just in today's examples, THIS: http://rhrealitycheck.org/article/2014/08/12/twitterfail-twitters-refusal-handle-online-stalkers-abusers-haters/ is much more useful/interesting/believable/actionable than the Tyranny article/talk.
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tantek
examples are cited etc.
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jdp23
i agree about the value of evidence and the web's ability to do so. skud calls the documentation they do on the Geek Feminism wiki "evidence-based feminism"
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tantek
the very existence of the web has raised the bar in what is possible in political / philosophical discussion - so we should raise our expectations as well.
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tantek
evidence helps you focus on what's actionable, and take action, rather than endless abstract conversation
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jdp23
governance isn't abstract. governance is very concrete
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tantek
it can be either
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jdp23
well, there can be abstract conversations that don't get anywhere
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tantek
I'd put it differently - they are not time efficient
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jdp23
but in your 1/2/3 point above, 2 and 3 are governance decisions. you're arguing that these are the right decisions. where's your evidence of trans/queer-positive social networks that didn't have governance discussions up front?
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jdp23
Dreamwidth was in a slightly different situation because they were forking an existing code base. but as i understand it there were a lot of discussions before they launched about what the governance was going to be
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tantek
no such specialization was attempted. rather, starting simply, minimally, and with the most freedom to empower people to work towards their own goals.
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tantek
CC0 is an important building block that still relatively "recent"
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KevinMarks__
a lot of social networks grew queer communities in parallel with others
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KevinMarks__
Friendster had a very strong gay community
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jdp23
gay != queer/trans
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tantek
KevinMarks: I do remember that about Friendster.
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jdp23
but, i agree with the general point. didn't mean to imply otherwise
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jdp23
however i don't believe they were not started with these specific goals of diveristy
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KevinMarks__
right. that's kind of my overlapping publics point
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jdp23
right i thought that was a good point
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KevinMarks__
when we had a lot of social network sites they grew in unexpected ways, as they took off within certain groups
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tantek
jdp23 - that being said, evidence has demonstrated that there is harrassment which requires more explicit policies, governance if you will, hence http://indiewebcamp.com/code-of-conduct
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jdp23
right. that's a great example of a governance discussion that has to be had explicitly, and is better to have up front then after the fact
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KevinMarks__
you need a bit of cross-pollination and connection between groups, but if you make the flow too strong we get the kind of stuff that freebsdgirl is getting tonight
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tantek
jdp23 - we did have it after the fact - after we started organizing IndieWebCamp events.
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tantek
despite not having had any incidents of harrasment at any IndieWebCamp per se, given incidents at *other* tech meetups, it was reasonable to conclude that it may just be a matter of time (probability), and thus worth documenting the existing organic "good" culture, along with explicit steps to demonstrate caring for the safety of individuals
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jdp23
agreed
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jdp23
and, like you said about CCO, this is an area where awareness is increasing
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tantek
indeed, awareness helps. as does licensing the code of conduct itself with CC0, allowing maximum re-use.
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tantek
more important that those ideas are reusable/reused than any form of attribution IMO.
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jdp23
true. but there are a variety of codes out there. how does a new community decide which to adopt and how to adapt them?
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jdp23
by having governance dicussions. and, in a queer/trans project, everybody is probably coming into it having had bad experiences elsewhere. so having these discussions early is very important.
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tantek
the usual for product development. minimum viable, then iterate. ;)
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KevinMarks__
right but that clashes with tone/culture setting as basis of community
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KevinMarks__
there is less tension here in IWC because the community is mostly devs
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tantek
KevinMarks: I think that's the wrong order. Rather than attempting to *set* tone/culture onto a community, study healthy organic communities, and document their tone/culture so it is reinforced, and copied.
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KevinMarks__
thats good
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tantek
I'd rather help reinforce healthy communities, than worry about "fixing" the broken ones.
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tantek
by creating/propagating healthy communities, we provide a competitive migration path away from broken ones (e.g. monocultures)
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xxcoeurxx
tantek++
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Loqi
tantek has 92 karma
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KartikPrabhu
is back from an underwhelming Chicago Fire Festival and catching up on logs
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tantek
in addition, by making our own community itself *forkable* (by way of providing everything "community" in CC0 / open source), we empower others to make *even healthier* communities, if we happen to screw up.
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KartikPrabhu
aaronpk_ could micropub have some sort of auto-suggest for tags/categories depending on the receiving endpoint?
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tantek.com
edited /Twitter (+377) "/* Criticism */ Poor handling of abuse, cite http://rhrealitycheck.org article"
(view diff)
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@xxcoeur66xx
begun a #ghost webmention plugin for #indieweb bringing the powah back to conversations. baibai silos.
(twitter.com/_/status/518645453114859520)
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tantek
xxcoeurxx++ !!!
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Loqi
xxcoeurxx has 2 karma
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KartikPrabhu
xxcoeurxx: Loqi is very clever :)
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xxcoeurxx
i've spent three hours reading and doing some minor coding, i shouldve gone to bed 8 hours ago :p
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KartikPrabhu
story of my life
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xxcoeurxx
KartikPrabhu: i noticed haha
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xxcoeurxx
i also did some minor updates on ze journal http://journal.levenom.com/
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xxcoeurxx
KartikPrabhu: haha
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KartikPrabhu
xxcoeurxx: love the font choice!
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xxcoeurxx
thanks KartikPrabhu :)
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KartikPrabhu
little things like font choice, and visual design makes it so much more enjoyable to read individual sites than silos where everyone looks and feels the same except for some colour changes
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xxcoeurxx
that's what i miss partly the most, the visual identity along with the longform
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xxcoeurxx
nowadays, everything looks the same
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xxcoeurxx
i mean, medium was early, but now everything looks like it.
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KartikPrabhu
yup! part of what I missed before I moved to my own site. talked about it in https://kartikprabhu.com/article/redux
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xxcoeurxx
ooh interesting :D
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jdp23
xxcoueurxx love the way your site looks, what software are you running?
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xxcoeurxx
jdp ghost with a tweaked default theme.
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KartikPrabhu
man that post is a year old now! :P
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xxcoeurxx
jdp23: ghost with a tweaked default theme
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xxcoeurxx
KartikPrabhu: well i did write this in 2012 http://journal.levenom.com/not-your-kind-of-social/
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xxcoeurxx
jdp23: but it'll look a lot more different later, when i'm done, adding a footer, redoing the typography etc
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KartikPrabhu
xxcoeurxx: of course not claiming to be the first, just surprised that I have posts that are a year old :P
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KartikPrabhu
and I still cite them
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xxcoeurxx
KartikPrabhu: it wasnt a critique, it was an "i think this might tie into it" :p
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KartikPrabhu
sure. opened in tab to read as soon as I am done with the extensive discussion in the logs
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jdp23
very impressive
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xxcoeurxx
this was my try from last year at beginning to blog.. again http://journal.levenom.com/emergent/
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xxcoeurxx
oh. that was neat.
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xxcoeurxx
KartikPrabhu: love the footnote references.
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KartikPrabhu
:D it is my science background at work :P
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xxcoeurxx
haha it's a detail i like :)
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KartikPrabhu
"140 characters? ARE YOU KIDDING ME, it’s not enough letters to convey anything but bare essentials." xxcoeurxx damn right, but others like tantek have more skill
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xxcoeurxx
well information density is good, but not everyone speaks it.
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tantek
I spend 22 of that 140 on a permashortcitation and intact text-retweetability.
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KartikPrabhu
i mostly end up geting rid of most punctuation, which makes me feel icky
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: I sympathize with your ick. I used to do much worse. Ahem: http://tantek.com/w/TxtShorthands
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tantek
The 140 char thing was cute for a while, but ends up encouraging trite conversation unfortunately. Happy to be able to post longer on my site, and just tune the first sentence or so for tweet POSSE copy.
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: agreed.
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jdp23
i'm wrapping up for the night -- i'll sync up with kylewm and getting a Facebook invitation up etc. etc.
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KartikPrabhu
jdp23++ for HWC organising
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Loqi
jdp23 has 3 karma
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jdp23
!tell kylewm is there a good time to sync up on the HWC meeting? we need to pick a place etc. etc.
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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KevinMarks__
do emoji make 140 characters more expressive?
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@fdevillamil
Very interesting. Huggin is a self hosted replacement to fit with a lot of available agents. #indieweb. https://github.com/cantino/huginn
(twitter.com/_/status/518663653059727360)
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KevinMarks__
POSSEs to medium too
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KartikPrabhu
just noticed that Medium has a "Response" button now
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KartikPrabhu
so you can write a "story" in response to another one
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tantek
KartikPrabhu - perhaps document on /Medium ?
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: that seems like a morning task :P perhaps tomorrow
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tantek
the implication being, if you POSSE a *reply* to Medium, that is also a reply *to* something on Medium, then you should do explicit POSSE threading there.
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tantek
alright I'll start something
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KartikPrabhu
cool. I'll add screenshots tomorrow
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tantek.com
edited /Medium (+820) "add Features section, and POSSE example KevinMarks"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /rsvp (+701) "/* Publish an RSVP */ how to Multi RSVP"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /rsvp (+288) "/* Aaron Parecki */ Multi-RSVPs published since"
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tantek.com
edited /rsvp (+381) "/* Tantek */ Multi-RSVPs published"
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tantek.com
created /multi-rsvp (+29) "r"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
created /multirsvp (+29) "r"
(view diff)
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tantek
well that's multi-rsvp documented at least
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tantek
what's multi-rsvp?
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tantek
what is multi-rsvp?
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Loqi
An RSVP is a type of post that is a reply to an event post http://indiewebcamp.com/multi-rsvp
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tantek.com
edited /rsvp (+12) "make multi-reply support more obvious"
(view diff)
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tantek
well that's one more set of tabs processed and closed, and thus browser window closed
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tantek.com
edited /database-antipattern (+43) "note documented with specific examples, as things should be"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /database-antipattern (+38) "/* community split */ specifically note split experience, rather than just opinion"
(view diff)
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@bdubertret
RT @fdevillamil: Very interesting. Huggin is a self hosted replacement to fit with a lot of available agents. #indieweb. https://t.co/yI5H0…
(twitter.com/_/status/518681886940729344)
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tantek.com
edited /database-antipattern (-47) "/* Alternatives */ see file-storage, instead of just one example of Falcon"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /file-storage (+23) "/* Tantek */ slight name of link change"
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@ctof
RT @fdevillamil: Very interesting. Huggin is a self hosted replacement to fit with a lot of available agents. #indieweb. https://t.co/yI5H0…
(twitter.com/_/status/518689659158020096)
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Jeena
This is an interesting point: "... new stuff can't happen in a silo." (via http://scripting.com/2014/10/04/#a1412451482 )
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xxcoeurxx
Jeena: i believe he posted about the virtues of facebook not more than a week ago as well...
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Jeena
I see
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Jeena
hm the content on his website seems interesting
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aaronpk_
whoa just noticed some weird things in my google search results
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aaronpk_
I think because I have rel=canonical on my post pointing to the wiki, google is showing the contents of the wiki in the summary
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thierry.marianne.weaving-the-web.org
edited /IndieWebCampParis (-110) "/* removed item related to photowalk to keep it simple ^_^ */"
(view diff)
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thierry.marianne.weaving-the-web.org
edited /IndieWebCampParis (+4) "/* Replaced "people" with "organizers" */"
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thierry.marianne.weaving-the-web.org
edited /IndieWebCampParis (+0) "/* added capital letter */"
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#
@hfusari
Heading to #set again this morning #filming #webseries #GetSpy check out our page here https://m.facebook.com/getspyshow?ref=bookmark #indieweb #indiefilm CHEERS!
(twitter.com/_/status/518776700398604288)
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aaronpk_
this was totally not what I was supposde to be doing right now, but now you can see all my posts from a specific day! http://aaronparecki.com/2014/09/10
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GWG
Nice though
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GWG
aaronpk_: How are you pebble posting exactly?
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GWG
Or rather, what does the interface look like?
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aaronpk_
I should make a little video
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aaronpk_
that is related to what I am doing today. hopefully by the end of the day I will have enough done that I can video it
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aaronpk_
it'll be a good demo
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GWG
What are you doing today?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "you doing today" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=you+doing+today
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aaronpk_
working on a new micropub demo app / pebble integration
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aaronpk_
it should make for a fun demo at IWC
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ben_thatmust
unfortunately, due to time constraints i am working on the house this weekend. haven't gotten anything done :(\
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ben_thatmust
Indieweb wise that is
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ben_thatmust
well, that and designing a new biz card for myself. need to figure out how to get it in to a format printers can do.
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ben_thatmust
i have it as a tiff, but previews show it pretty low quality for the text after it gets uploaded
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Loqi
Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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tbrun
HI ben_thatmust
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ben_thatmust
how are you today?
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tbrun
I am relatively new to this and am building my web site that includes many of the pricipals of indieweb.
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ben_thatmust
excellent!
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ben_thatmust
if you have any questions at all feel free to ask
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tbrun
Altough I am not a coder, I really appreciate the work that you folks are doing.
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ben_thatmust
thanks. Theres a lot of people doing a lot of different things in here. Not everyone is a coder.
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tbrun
On the indieweb site there are examples of people doing things like microformats. What is the policy about seeing what others have done and 'repurposing' them into my site
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ben_thatmust
So what do you do?
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bret
hey tbrun welcome! :)
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tbrun
I have been an executive director of the local Habitat for Humanity, and now I am semi-retired and doing some statistics teaching at the college level, and doing some consulting to a startup.
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bret
tbrun: by policy, do you mean licensing?
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ben_thatmust
as far as licensing it depends on the project really. don't be afraid to look at how people use microformats, its an open standard. so if it helps you learn, great
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tbrun
I don't think licensing is the right word. There are some folks that have done some interesting things on putting their personal info on their front pages, but in such a way as not to be easily scrapable by folks whose intent is suspicious. If I look at how they do it and copy it is that 'stealing'. I want to be a good member and not viewed as a thief
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bret
tbrun: a few personal projects that people have been working on are not completely open source because the individuals don't want the overhead of dealing with open source project of the same scope as their full personal project, but those who do that have all open sourced parts of their own project
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bret
others put everything out there for others to use too
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bret
tbrun: its probably okay to follow the lead of interesting examples by others! But if you are worried, it never hurts to ask
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ben_thatmust
somewhat regrets basing his code base off of opencart, i'm stuck opensource rather than going creative commons or public domain as i'd prefer
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tbrun
It is not so much a project, it I see something I like, it is easy to view the source of the page. If I use that source as a basis for my site I would not be looking for anyone other than myself to maintain it.
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bret
ben_thatmust: CC does not cover code very very well iirc
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ben_thatmust
chances are that whoever's code you want to use is in this chat, or will be sometime today
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tantek
good morning #indiewebcamp!
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ben_thatmust
good morning tantek
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GWG
Good morning tantek
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tantek
catches up on logs
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bret
tbrun: I do that kind of thing all the time when I see something and wonder "how'd they do that!?"
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tantek
the web was built from View Source, copy/paste
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tantek
it's a fine tradition
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rascul.io
edited /git (+66) "/* Software */ add gogs"
(view diff)
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tbrun
Being somewhat goal oriented, I have gone through the levels of idenfity, etc. on the site and am just trying to cover the bases moving up the levels. I don't want to re-invent the wheel, so if someone has a good way of presenting their identify, and it meets my needs is copying that format acceptable.
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tantek
Jeena: still around? know about the #indiechat informal off-topic channel?
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ben_thatmust
tbrun, i definately made some good use of open source libraries people in here have published
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ben_thatmust
saved me lots of time
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bret
tbrun: there is a decently complete set of wordpress plugins, and now the recently launched http://withknown.com that can get you a high level indieweb site. https://transmat.io is close to launching and a community member just started working full-time on http://homesteading.io Of course, if you are interested, even non-coders can get started on an
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bret
indieweb site as a way to become a coder and get a rad personal site int the process
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bret
tbrun:
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bret
woops
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bret
tbrun: a good first step is to get added to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people
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www.tombruning.com
edited /IRC_People (+39) "/* Nicknames */"
(view diff)
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@backspaces
The #IndieWeb is pretty important, Dan Gillmor has a good post on why: http://dangillmor.com/2014/04/25/indie-web-important/
(twitter.com/_/status/518798347277459456)
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bret.io
edited /IRC_People (+9) "Fixed IRC tag"
(view diff)
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bret
tbrun++
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Loqi
tbrun has 1 karma
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bret
nice you got on the page! :)
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bret
fixed the tag slightly for you
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www.tombruning.com
created /User:Www.tombruning.com (+86) "Created page with "I am currently developing my own site : [http://www.tombruning.com link Personal site]""
(view diff)
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tbrun
Glad to be on the page, now to make some contribution to this....
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tantek.com
edited /silo (+3919) "document New and Hip Silos separately from Popular, document Silo Innovations, Flexibility, User Innovations Inside Silos, move Cybe to a new Vaporware Silos section"
(view diff)
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GWG
Finally got around to adding two words to clarify something on my site after something someone said here.
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tantek.com
edited /silo (+1) "move flexibility before innovation, quitting after issues"
(view diff)
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bret.io
edited /User:Bret.io (+0) "/* Events */ Fixed linky"
(view diff)
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bret.io
edited /User:Bret.io (+63) "/* Past experiments */ Added example"
(view diff)
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tantek
that's a serious bummer that Rabble restarted his blog but without archives of his old posts: http://anarchogeek.com/reviving-my-blog/ :(
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tantek
he's even using WordPress which has some of the best importing functionality of anything out there
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tantek
so I really don't understand what happened.
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tantek
GWG, any theories for why a WordPress user (looks like self-hosted) would update his wordpress and throwaway the history?
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GWG
tantek: 2
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GWG
1. A deliberate decision
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GWG
2. He didn't keep up with updates and didn't want to go through the migration path
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GWG
If he had an old version, it would be pre-export capability. It would have to be pretty ancient though
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GWG
If he did, he'd have to...
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GWG
1. Upgrade incrementally to get to a version that supported export.
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GWG
2. Upgrade incrementally to get to the latest version
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GWG
However, the archive.org version linked was from 3.4.2, which isn't that old
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GWG
I once spent a long time getting a Wordpress 2.0 site to the modern era
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GWG
So, other than losing the data somehow...
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GWG
I can't think of a reason.
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tantek
I'll ask him next time I see him. Still I find it disturbing from an indieweb perspective.
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tantek
KevinMarks: at least one of the other cited history of the @-reply articles is still up: http://log.maniacalrage.net/post/26935842947/the-real-history-of-the-reply-on-twitter
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bear
I did it once using brute force - dumped the database and then generated an import file from that
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GWG
bear: Seems more likely a decision.
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bear
sorry - was a sideways way of agreeing with your point of it could take a long time
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GWG
bear: Still...I don't know the individual in question, but if they wanted the material, they would have tried.
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tantek
Rabble is quite the smart guy, and developer as well, so I'm not sure what happened.
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tantek
KevinMarks: I noticed in the comments on http://www.kevinmarks.com/twitterhatespeech.html there is the "noise" @-reply you replied to as making the point of your article.
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bret
maybe an import will happen later
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bret
or selectively
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tantek
are you leaving it visible intentionally on your site? or no current way to delete/block comments ?
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tantek
bret - indeed - I for one will encourage him to import
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tantek
of course if he wasn't able to keep up with backing up his old WordPress's database...
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tantek
darn, http://kellan.io/oldtweets appears to not be working any more (always empty results)
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tantek.com
edited /silo (+780) "/* User Innovations Inside */ citations for @-reply, hashtag, retweet"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /selfdogfood (+0) "emojicon tweak"
(view diff)
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KevinMarks_
I'm using voxpelli's webmention tool, and it doesn't give options (also has repeated text from bridgy)
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KevinMarks_
Maybe I should try to fix it
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voxpelli
KevinMarks_: Would be great if you added an issue in GitHub and I'll look into it when I have some time :)
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tantek
is this a JS embed?
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tantek
KevinMarks: once you *can* selectively delete/block noisy/abusive comments, then you can write *another* post documenting it!
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tantek
and how you now have more control over your comments than the silos gave you
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tantek
since you're using your own website
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tantek
that kind of concrete example is very useful
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voxpelli
The WebMentions from my tools are JS-embedded, yes – making it a bit trickier for others to add moderation :/
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tantek
voxpelli: the JS could take a block-list as input: http://microformats.org/wiki/block-list
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voxpelli
tantek: that would be an interesting solution, haven't thought of that
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@anomalily
I admit I kind of miss when it was just hand-editing HTML pages uploaded via FTP to make websites.
(twitter.com/_/status/518818036510625792)
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tantek.com
edited /block (+404) "add brainstorming section"
(view diff)
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KevinMarks_
Heh, after last night's fight with blog editors I approve of that thought
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tantek
voxpelli: for your consideration: http://indiewebcamp.com/block#Brainstorming
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tantek
aaronpk, KevinMarks - perhaps there's a webby principle there
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tantek
just as with web *browsers* we have the expectation of always being able to "View Source" ...
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tantek
with web *editors* (CMS, publishing, etc.), we should always have the option of "Edit Source"
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KevinMarks_
That's what I switched to in known (and have always used in blogger)
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KevinMarks_
Ello let me paste in html source , but instantly wysiwyg'd it
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KevinMarks_
Medium I pasted in the rendered html, which works there
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tantek
what is WYSIWYG?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "WYSIWYG" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=WYSIWYG
#
@Eastmad
Good summary of why twitter can get ugly by @kevinmarks http://www.kevinmarks.com/twitterhatespeech.html - and he slightly answers his own question with #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/518820073445015552)
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KevinMarks_
The twitter troll comment being propagated into my post is illustrative of the problem we need to handle
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tantek
precisely!
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tantek
and if you solve it, you can follow-up as such
eburcat joined the channel
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tantek
it also points out that trolls come from all sides of a debate
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KevinMarks_
That isn't a real feminist, that's a redditer mocking their vocabulary
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tantek
KevinMarks: and it's bad when one can't tell
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KevinMarks_
Where should I write up the manual POSSE and editor problems I found?
#
tantek
per silo
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tantek
and per tool
loic_m_ joined the channel
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tantek
document the == Issues == with Ello's editor on /Ello
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tantek
document the behavior of the /Medium editor in an == Editor == section there
loic_m__ joined the channel
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aaronpk_
I think bookmarks are now the easiest thing for me to create on my site
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aaronpk_
actually food/drink posts are close now that I can do it from my watch
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aaronpk_
follow along with my day today! http://aaronparecki.com/2014/10/05
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GWG
aaronpk_: I like the icons
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ben_thatmust
so is barnaby's plugin (and the greasemonkey script) the only ways to make use of webactions right now?
#
GWG
Still eager to see this
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aaronpk_
thanks!
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tantek
ben_thatmust: not quite. see /indie-config
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tantek
for the latest and greatest awesomeness - thanks to voxpelli
#
tantek
voxpelli++
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Loqi
voxpelli has 10 karma
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tantek.com
edited /block (+271) "/* Brainstorming */ minimum use-cases explicitly documented, and how behavior works to address them"
(view diff)
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aaronpk_
is flickr support on the roadmap for bridgy?
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tantek
what is a roadmap?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "roadmap" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=roadmap
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ben_thatmust
need to link that on the /webactions
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aaronpk_
oh right I'm not supposde to say roadmap
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xxcoeurxx
oh damn, just read the backlog.
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xxcoeurxx
voxpelli++ indeed
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Loqi
voxpelli has 11 karma
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xxcoeurxx
voxpelli: hej btw
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voxpelli
xxcoeurxx: hej hej :)
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tantek.com
created /roadmap (+369) "stub with dfn debunk, alternatives, see also"
(view diff)
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aaronpk_
feature request for the wiki: all edits should have a link to the IRC logs for the time of the edit
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tantek
perhaps even to the specific utterance from Loqi *of* the edit.
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aaronpk_
allow me to rephrase... any plans for bridgy to support flickr comments?
KevinMarks___ joined the channel
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tantek
aaronpk - Bridgy backfeed or Bridgy publish?
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aaronpk_
backfeed
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tantek
looks more like an Itch than a Working On
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aaronpk_
not sure if removing the "maybe" is because it's a yes or a no
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tantek.com
edited /bulshytt (+4) "linky"
(view diff)
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tantek
aaronpk - since the issue is still open, I interpret that as a yes.
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tantek
whereas closing the issue without fixing would mean no.
petermolnar and shaners joined the channel
#
@t
@anomalily as browsers gave us View Source, perhaps publishing/editing tools should give us an option to Edit Source. (ttk.me t4YU1)
(twitter.com/_/status/518829386511163392)
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tantek
I've been fascinated by all the different approaches / opinions / desires for different post creating / editing interfaces / preferences / formats.
#
tantek
from full WYSIWYG, to plain text only, to markdown, to HTML
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xxcoeurxx
you can pry markdown from my cold dead hands.
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tantek
it seems every publishing tool makes very specific decisions about that
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tantek
xxcoeurxx: which flavor? ;)
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@anomalily
Whoa, leveling up in the #indieweb world: about to switch from PESOS to POSSE for @flickr because PESOS is failing me
(twitter.com/_/status/518830141502685185)
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xxcoeurxx
tantek: common/generic/non-gruberian ;)
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tantek
xxcoeurxx: I certainly appreciate the desire to "just" be able to type plain(-ish) text and have it "just" work.
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xxcoeurxx
bt seriously though, we see this every time there's a new tool on the market, its built on some quasi-greek logic through confirmation bias into "what the user wants" / "what the user needs"
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xxcoeurxx
i mean, i remember CamelCase. i was there man.
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tantek
hence here in indieweb, we tell people to build the tool *they* want to use, not some mythological platonic ideal "user"
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xxcoeurxx
but, wysiwyg, has its caveats, since most of the tools still to str/regexp.
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xxcoeurxx
and thus we get stuck with ugly cludgy html, like what KevinMarks___ ended up having in his post last night
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tantek
I have yet to see a "good" WYSIWYG -> markup editing/publishing tool.
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notenoughneon.com
edited /reader (+249) "/* IndieWeb examples */ add neonblog example"
(view diff)
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xxcoeurxx
tantek: same here.
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tantek
emmak++ for using an integrated reader on her site!
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Loqi
emmak has 7 karma
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xxcoeurxx
tantek: i spent three months trying to sanitize the output of whatsitcalled again... really common rich text editor dropin
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tantek
TinyMCE?
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xxcoeurxx
thats the one
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tantek
what is TinyMCE?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "TinyMCE" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=TinyMCE
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xxcoeurxx
"hairy kludge"
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tantek
invites xxcoeurxx to start a stub page on /TinyMCE with that ;)
#
www.levenom.com
created /TinyMCE (+12) "Created page with "hairy kludge""
(view diff)
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tantek
what is editing?
#
tantek
hmm - not what I expected!
#
tantek
what is an editor?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "editor" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=editor
#
tantek
ok I'll start something
#
tantek
what is creating?
#
Loqi
create in the context of the indieweb refers to the act of and UI for creating a new post http://indiewebcamp.com/creating
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xxcoeurxx
what is love?
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xxcoeurxx
naturally...
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shaners
catching up on logs
#
shaners
DMed @rabble about bringing back his archives
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tantek
shaners++
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Loqi
shaners has 11 karma
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tantek.com
created /editor (+276) "stub with dfn, software, see also"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /editor (+239) "may also refer to content editor or spec editor"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /editor (+579) "spectrum of approaches"
(view diff)
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ben_thatmust
is still trying to figure out indie-action setup
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ben_thatmust
i have my config, and registered as handler, but links i wrap in the <action> tag still aren't working
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@xxcoeur66xx
@Qeruiem okejrå, återgår till att hacka på #indieweb :p
(twitter.com/_/status/518835856380264448)
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tantek
ben_thatmust: <indie-action> tag
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ben_thatmust
tried that too
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iamshane.com
edited /TinyMCE (+265) "self description"
(view diff)
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tantek
anybody have *other* approaches to editing that what's in this list? http://indiewebcamp.com/editor#Approaches - or if someting there matches what your tool does, add yourself to the respective parenthetical list.
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shaners
What is TinyMCE?
#
Loqi
TinyMCE is a javascript html wysiwyg editor http://indiewebcamp.com/TinyMCE
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tantek
what is wysiwyg?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "wysiwyg" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=wysiwyg
#
ben_thatmust
is there some JS i need, i don't understand what the How to load someones indie-config si talking about at all
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tantek
ben_thatmust: yes there are multiple scripts you need
mdik joined the channel
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tantek.com
edited /create (+325) "/* Jeremy Keith */ has iterated his creating UI"
(view diff)
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xxcoeurxx
interesting, ghost makes epiphany-browser choke.
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xxcoeurxx
hello ancient bugzilla account, how i missed thee
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tantek
what is epiphany-browser?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "epiphany-browser" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=epiphany-browser
#
shaners
Anyone in here with any Heroku + nginx config expericne? /cc aaronpk aaronpk_ et al
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aaronpk_
I don't really use heroku
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xxcoeurxx
shaners what are you looking to do?
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xxcoeurxx
because at openshifts free tier...
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shaners
i have three apps: (let's say) feed, articles, notes.
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tantek
what is an archive?
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xxcoeurxx
shaners: aaah well then, go openshift and use the nodejs cartridge of theirs.
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shaners
i want feed to accept all requests for my domain (i know how to do that), and then url map /articles to articles.herokuapp.com and /notes to notes.herokuapp.com
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xxcoeurxx
so its not a hosting but routing question.
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shaners
correct
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@kevinmarks
RT @anomalily: Whoa, leveling up in the #indieweb world: about to switch from PESOS to POSSE for @flickr because PESOS is failing me
(twitter.com/_/status/518839577193086976)
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xxcoeurxx
you can do that via nginx directives.
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shaners
(there might be a little bit of host specific shit, but i'll burn that bridget when i get there)
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xxcoeurxx
i dont know exactly line by line offhand though
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xxcoeurxx
but i recall going over a similar idea.
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xxcoeurxx
more on the cdn side.
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xxcoeurxx
and found something shaners
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tantek.com
edited /create (+566) "/* Jeremy Keith */ add his create UI iterations"
(view diff)
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shaners
thannks xxcoeurxx. i'll give that a look.
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tantek
I'm still impressed by adactio's pure HTML+CSS animated slider toggle made from only <span> wrapping a checkbox and <label> : http://jsbin.com/rugonu/6/edit <-- source and interactive
#
tantek
no JS needed
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aaronpk_
oh that's awesome
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tantek
this in stark contrast to the what I would expect typical web dev to do with 1) include jQuery, 2) write a TON of jQuery code to make it work
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bret
like bigtime
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shaners
tantek: it changes colors, but does not animate for me. (In latest Safari on latest OS X)
#
tantek
it slides doesn' it?
#
tantek
huh, another thing they broke in iOS8
#
tantek
like facetime: URLs
#
tantek
is still waiting for the non-beta actual bug fixed release
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shaners
i'm on os x. not ios.
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tantek
squints
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shaners
hmm... not sliding in chrome either.
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shaners
something is afoot (for me)
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tantek
shaners - hmm - not in my OSX Safari either
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shaners
maybe desktop Safari in Mavericks still needs the vendor prefix for transform:
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tantek.com
edited /create (+160) "/* per silo POSSE toggles */ link to open source"
(view diff)
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shaners
-webkit-transform: translateX(1.8em);
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shaners
makes it change position, but as a toggle. does not slide over.
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tantek
shaners, pretty sure adactio uses iOS Safari and Chrome, and he showed it working to me. odd that iOS would have newer versions of those browsers?
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shaners
ios has shipped an update to safari more recently than os x has.
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shaners
yosemite will prolly catch it up
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shaners
Apple seems to only ship major versions of Safari with OS X versions.
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tantek
odd, I remember getting Safari updates independent of OSX updates (in Software Update)
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shaners
yeah, but they're just bug fixes and security patches, i thought.
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tantek.com
moved /editing to /how_to_edit_this_wiki "because "editing" has a more directly relevant to indieweb meaning"
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tantek.com
edited /editing (+336) "stub with dfn, disambig, see also"
(view diff)
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@bretolius
@nicopolitan @thursdayschild On the webmention/brid.gy side, #indiewebcamp on Freenode IRC can help get you started
(twitter.com/_/status/518844440220168192)
petermolnar joined the channel
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GWG
I have a question. I want to extend my rel-syndication link plugin to as many services as possible, as I want to redesign it to only activate the ones a site is using, instead of all. What services do people have rel-syndication links to? I have Twitter, Facebook, Google Plus, and Instagram right now
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aaronpk_
flickr, indienews, app.net, github
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tantek.com
edited /Flickr (+396) "/* Issues */ PESOS unreliability with citation"
(view diff)
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shaners
GWG: twitter, medium, wordpress, tumblr, flickr, youtube, vimeo
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tantek.com
edited /PESOS (+86) "/* Disadvantages */ less reliable e.g. Flickr"
(view diff)
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GWG
You can POSSE to Github?
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aaronpk_
sure why not?
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aaronpk_
I POSSE comments on issues
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GWG
Also, re POSSEing to Youtube/Vimeo...is anyone hosting their own videos and copying to the service, or just embedding right now?
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GWG
tantek: Until he mentioned it, I didn't think of comments.
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GWG
Then the next question is...is anyone POSSEing WordPress to WordPress, as this is for a WordPress plugin?
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tantek
GWG, meta point - for questions about a silo, check the silo's wiki page
#
tantek
e.g. re: GitHub, YouTube, Vimeo
indie-visitor joined the channel
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GWG
tantek: The answer to my question is not on the YouTube page
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GWG
Also, the WordPress question isn't precisely on there
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GWG
People POSSE to WordPress, people POSSE from WordPress, but between WordPress sites...not sure if there is a use case
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tantek
GWG - then you can add it (to the YouTube page) with what information you know
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tantek
GWG you might POSSE from your own indie wordpress install to a previous wordpress.com account you were using (where people followed you)
#
tantek
bret: what does this mean? "will I miss PHP?" https://twitter.com/nicopolitan/status/518834036588822528
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bret
tantek: ghost is written in javascript/node, and Nico looks like a php dev
#
tantek
bret++ for encouraging Ghost to adopt webmention
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bret
tempted to note the php love by many members here
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Loqi
bret has 30 karma
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tantek
not sure about "love" as much as "pragmatic use of"
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indie-visitor
Well, the whole POSSE to Flickr situation is biting me in the butt
#
indie-visitor
Was trying to do it via IFTTT
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tantek
oh dear indie-visitor - are you /nick anomalily?
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indie-visitor
Turns out... then it turns the links into IFTTT links
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indie-visitor
oh yeah. thought i did that
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@bretolius
@nicopolitan @thursdayschild PS lots of love for (quality) php: http://indiewebcamp.com/PHP :) Still the fastest way to self host a website
(twitter.com/_/status/518847171118895105)
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tantek
or this might work better: indiewebcamp.com/irc/today?beta#bottom
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bret
ifttt linx ewww
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anomalily
Okay, so do I spend my day getting exobrain to work with POSSE to flickr because I am not willing to have IFTTT permalinks
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anomalily
Oooooorrr hmm
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tantek
anomalily: adactio has somehow gotten POSSE to Flickr working, as has Known
#
tantek
and maybe aaronpk / p3k too?
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aaronpk_
has not
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aaronpk_
maybe there is a wordpress plugin tho?
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aaronpk_
seems like something that should exist as a wordpress plugin
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@anomalily
@pjf Hey, any existing uses of exobrain to POSSE wordpress/server to flickr? Turns out IFTTT turns it into their own links #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/518847768279154688)
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aaronpk_
sounds like a job for bridgy publish!
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tantek.com
edited /Flickr (+128) "add POSSE to Flickr with indieweb examples"
(view diff)
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aaronpk_
if bridgy were written in PHP I would actually be able to help with this
#
aaronpk_
I'm so not willing to learn python
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anomalily
But I want it *today* not when bridgy gets around to it ;)
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anomalily
Yea, my python experience is about 10 years old now, not really very handy
#
tantek
perhaps at least file a Bridgy Publish issue?
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bret
anomalily: are you running pif's exobrain?
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bret
that thing is crazy cool
tfontaine joined the channel
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GWG
tantek: There's a use case. Although I'd just pick up and move myself. But since my goal is to make a menu of choices, and the rendering code is pretty duplicative, I'll add it.
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tantek
what is exobrain?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "exobrain" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=exobrain
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bret
i can stub a page later
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bret
saw pif present on it at open source bridge
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GWG
Try Nextscript Social Network Auto-Poster(SNAP), it says it does Flickr
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aaronpk_
!tell anomalily hi you'll get this message!
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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bret
aaronpk_: your IRC broken?
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aaronpk_
long story
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anomalily
GWG: that looks perfect!
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Loqi
anomalily: aaronpk_ left you a message 6 minutes ago: hi you'll get this message!
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anomalily
Thanks!
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tantek.com
edited /archive (+723) "add IndieWeb Examples section inspired by aaronpk getting it working for his site"
(view diff)
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petermolnar
aaronpk_ I'm syndicating to flickr from WordPress with SNAP
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aaronpk_
sweet! anomalily: ^
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GWG
I just want to switch from SNAP to Bridgy.
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tantek
petermolnar: could you add yourself and SNAP to http://indiewebcamp.com/Flickr#POSSE_to_Flickr
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petermolnar
trying to, indiewebcamp is not logging me in at the moment
#
tantek
GWG could you file a Bridgy Publish issue requesting publish to Flickr support? https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/
#
@anomalily
@petermolnar @pjf Thanks! I just installed, trying to get it set-up now. Ideally, I can get webmentions too but that is a Big Project
(twitter.com/_/status/518853006314328064)
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tantek.com
edited /create (+175) "/* Aaron Parecki */ subdivide note and event"
(view diff)
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aaronpk_
I just had a crazy idea to create an IRC server emulator that is actually a micropub client and indieweb reader
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anomalily
aaronpk: Go back to work!
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aaronpk_
so that I can read things and create posts and replies from my IRC client
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aaronpk_
will defer on that til later :D
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tfontaine
haha that would be pretty excellent.
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anomalily
aaronpk: I think that is the definition of building for yourself rather than an ideal user.
#
petermolnar.eu
edited /Flickr (+105) "/* POSSE to Flickr */"
(view diff)
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aaronpk_
I am OK with that :D
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tfontaine
Any good projects working on getting WM into Ghost? I've been searching, but found little actual work being done. But a lot of "That would be awesome!"
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tantek
aaronpk, similarly, I'm waiting to see bear build an XMPP server emulator that is actually a micropub client and indieweb reader so that he can read things and create posts and replies from his XMPP client.
#
petermolnar.eu
edited /Flickr (+58) "/* POSSE to Flickr */"
(view diff)
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aaronpk_
yeah! that'd be sweet too
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GWG
tantek: I don't use Flickr
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tantek
GWG - sorry I misunderstood your statement re: SNAP in context of POSSE to Flickr
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bret
tfontaine: not that I have seen! there is definitely been interest but I have not even see experiments yet
#
GWG
tantek: I use SNAP for Twitter and Facebook, but I'd like to switch them to Bridgy Publish, as Bridgy supports both.
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bret
tfontaine: a quick way to get started would be something like https://webmention.herokuapp.com where display is dynamic and you host the content in a separate system
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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GWG
SNAP does a lot, but its messy
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tantek
what is SNAP?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "SNAP" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=SNAP
#
bret
tfontaine: which is actually a common ghost method.... thats how people do diqus and discourse comments iirc
#
tfontaine
Bret, That's kind of what I was thinking. Without the API, it'd have to rely on something ELSE with an API we could hook into with some javascript.
#
tfontaine
Yeah, exactly.
#
petermolnar
messy is a kind word for that
#
tfontaine
Heh. Indeed.
#
bret
webmention is an extremely simple post request handler... with recommendations on how to display the incoming notification data.
#
bret
tfontaine: are you familiar with pingback?
#
GWG
tantek: The plugin is called Nextscript Social Network Auto Poster...I'm not sure it needs a page per se
#
GWG
Putting it under SNAP seems confusing...as that is a common acronym
#
tfontaine
Yeah. A good friend of mine has webmention all setup. I've looked at his code a little.
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aaronpk_
yes I did just bookmark my own IRC utterance so that it shows up in my day permalink http://aaronparecki.com/2014/10/05
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KevinMarks___
Gwg I POSSEd to known, blogger, ello, medium and twitter
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KevinMarks___
Mostly by hand
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bret
webmention is a ping back without the xmlprc stuff, and is paired with a website that has been marked up microformats. The microformats allows the receiving site to parse the mentioning site for a json version of the page, and lets it display replies, comments, reply-context in any way they wish to choose.
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bret
this allows people to have twitter style conversations displayed across different website implementations without a central server, manifesto or complicated protocol implementations
mlncn joined the channel
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GWG
KevinMarks___: My plugin is best designed for by handers. It adds the boxes for the URLs. So you've proved my use case
#
KevinMarks___
Wondering if I should POSSE to WordPress too
#
KevinMarks___
Though POSSE to techcrunch has worked well before
#
tantek
KevinMarks_: wordpress.com?
#
tantek
did you Bridgy backfeed techcrunch comments back to your original post?
#
petermolnar
KevinMarks___ you don't have anything against medium and it's shady terms & conditions on the content you post?
#
KevinMarks___
I suppose I should just put a cc notice on
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tantek.com
edited /Medium (-2) "fix heading level"
(view diff)
#
KevinMarks___
Techcrunch comments are in some silo or other
#
tantek
KevinMarks if you have advice for POSSEing to Medium, please add it in the main section here: http://indiewebcamp.com/Medium#POSSE (like same paragraph as "It is possible…")
#
petermolnar
tantek medium is manual only I'm afraid
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kartikprabhu.com
edited /editor (+47) "/* Approaches */ added Bundle to list"
(view diff)
#
petermolnar.eu
edited /editor (+9) "/* Approaches */"
(view diff)
gRegor` joined the channel
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@DappFund
RT @tomstandage: Late to this, but glad to learn from @dangillmor of IndieWeb, which aims to "re-decentralise the web": http://t.co/HP3HSxu…
(twitter.com/_/status/518862005349126145)
#
@caseorganic
Waited until last moment to check into my flight to Boston for #cyborgcamp + #indiewebcamp. Last row of the plane! Actually kind of excited.
(twitter.com/_/status/518864330863816704)
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bret
given the already high workload in writing an article worth anyones time, manual posse isn't the worst thing ever.... but automation trumps manual
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bret
https://www.loomio.org/d/HufK4NE8/fixing-federation Diaspora discussing their federation strategy
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xxcoeurxx
bret: excellent, shall we give them options?
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bret
heh, would be happy see diaspora made indieweb friendly, but their discussions have not been all that welcoming
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bret
seems their primary focus is getting diaspora to work between "pods"
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xxcoeurxx
bret: oh.. :/
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xxcoeurxx
silos </3
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bret
i have not put much energy forth.. would rather work on getting indieweb talking to pump.io servers
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xxcoeurxx
yes me too :D
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bret
evan hasn't had much time to discuss it though.
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bret
afaikt pump works like diaspora, and is easier to self host. could be totally wrong though, never actually tried to run a diaspora pod
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bret
xxcoeurxx: you run ghost yeah? may be others with similar goals: https://twitter.com/thursdayschild/status/518592596848181250
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@thursdayschild
@nicopolitan My biggest Ghost thing now is comments. Disqus and Muut work, but I don't like either. I'd like to integrate Webmention, though
(twitter.com/_/status/518592596848181250)
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xxcoeurxx
well there's always this that could be packaged into an easy to install format: https://t.co/kBJNK7Q9Sn by @ummjackson on twitter
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xxcoeurxx
bret: thanks for the heads up :D
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@xxcoeur66xx
@thursdayschild @nicopolitan hey join #indieweb on freenode, i'm about to start hacking on webmentions :)
(twitter.com/_/status/518872730037653505)
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bret
xxcoeurxx: tfontaine already made here today
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xxcoeurxx
didnt know that bret :)
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bret
hehe
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xxcoeurxx
also am, again, running an 32h cycle, and counting haha
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xxcoeurxx
i'm barely coherent atm :p
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bret
yikes! get some sleep
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xxcoeurxx
i've tried two times.
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xxcoeurxx
had to do a deep backgroundcheck for moneys and then i had an itch to research :p
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@anomalily
Pretty darn cool to see SNAP POSSE to Facebook, with bridgy then grabbing the comments/likes. <3 #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/518882225173966848)
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tantek
GWG , the reason to create a /SNAP page with simple definition/summary is to also put a place for IndieWeb Examples of people using it - so others who come by can see if it's worth trying out, and who to ask
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tantek
e.g. ^^^
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GWG
tantek: How about Wordpress/SNAP
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tantek
hierarchies--
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Loqi
hierarchies has -1 karma
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aaronpk_
what is snap?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "snap" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=snap
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xxcoeurxx
what is SNAP?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "SNAP" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=SNAP
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tantek
GWG - per WIkipedia, hierarchy is not how to do disambiguation for wiki pages.
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bret
i18n has to be the worst name
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aaronpk_
why? at least it's googleable
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bret
true
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tantek
bret - I'll see your i18n and raise you l10n
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bret
i just love working on i18n and l10n
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bret
looks like l33t speak
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bret
aaronpk_: as generic terminology it isn't obvious what it means unless you are told. i guess thats my only objection to it.
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gRegor`
Ello, tfontaine
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tfontaine
Hey, gRegor
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gRegor`
Have webmention set up in Ghost yet?
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tfontaine
Oh, yeah. Took 5 mins. :P
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gRegor`
tfontaine: If you can easily add rel="me" to your twitter link, you could sign in to the wiki and add yourself to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people
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tantek.com
moved /2014/Cambridge_Schedule to /2014/Cambridge/Schedule "event nesting for auto-breadcrumbs"
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tantek.com
edited /2014/Cambridge/Schedule (-10) "brainstorming / hacking"
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gRegor`
xxcoeurxx: Were you also working on webmention support in Ghost?
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tantek.com
edited /2014/Cambridge/Schedule (+722) "fix location, MIT stata center (never was at Media Lab)"
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tantek.com
edited /2014/Cambridge (+28) "/* RSVP */ add Lanyrd"
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tmar.io
edited /IndieWebCampParis (-29) "/* Organizers */"
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tantek
thierrymarianne: welcome!
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tantek
thierrymarianne: add yourself with your fancy new shorter personal URL to https://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people so you show up nice in the logs!
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tantek.com
created /rot13 (+19) "r"
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tantek.com
created /ebg13 (+19) "r"
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xxcoeurxx
gRegor`: yep started looking into it last night
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tantek.com
edited /rot13 (-3) "dfn"
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tantek.com
edited /rot13 (+1) "."
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gRegor`
Cool. tfontaine (@thursdayschild) is my friend that was in here just a bit ago. He's also interested in getting it set up. But he's gone again, heh.
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xxcoeurxx
dang, i was doing some node stuff, i'll be in tomorrow as well, how about we look into it then?
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tantek.com
edited /rot13 (+19) "summary"
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tantek.com
edited /ebg13 (+20) "summary"
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thierrymarianne
Thank you!
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gregorlove.com
created /recursion (+125) "recursion"
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tmar.io
edited /IRC_People (+52) "/* Added IRC username of thierrymarianne */"
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tantek.com
edited /recursion (-34) "linear"
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tantek.com
edited /recursion (-21) "minimize"
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aaronpk_
oh you guys
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gRegor`
I make the really important wiki edits.
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tmar.io
edited /User:Tmar.io (-39) "Updated tmar.io user page"
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tantek
now add an avatar for yourself too (same irc template to edit - see others)
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tmar.io
edited /IRC_People (+47) "/* Nicknames */"
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thierrymarianne
It is so nice so see changes in real time and everything in sync with this IRC channel :)
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GWG
Anyone available for some PHP advice on my coding?