#indiewebcamp 2014-10-09

2014-10-09 UTC
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bret.io edited /Webfist (+7) "Fixed dfn" (view diff)
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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gRegor` Chicago HWC is go
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bret pdx isn't happening this week
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bret have fun
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gRegor` Bummer, bret.
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bret aaronpks out of town, i am swamped at school/work
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gRegor` David visiting Chicago HWC for the first time http://www.dmrutherford.com/
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joinerman (hi!)
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bret hey!
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bret nice looking site david
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joinerman thanks!
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joinerman currently in the process of redoing from scratch ;)
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gRegor` What is Jekyll
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Loqi Jekyll is Ruby software that helps you create "Simple, blog-aware, static sites" suitable for static domain hosting http://indiewebcamp.com/Jekyll
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gRegor` Davis will be replacing his WordPress site with Jekyll
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gRegor` s/Davis/David/
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Loqi gRegor` meant to say: David will be replacing his WordPress site with Jekyll
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bret neato
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bret.io edited /Jekyll (+39) "/* Related Tools */" (view diff)
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joinerman what is love?
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Loqi "baby don't hurt me . . . " ♫ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhrBDcQq2DM http://indiewebcamp.com/love
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joinerman (gRegor` made me do it)
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gRegor` Just pointing out the key points of IRC
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www.dmrutherford.com created /User:Www.dmrutherford.com (+47) "Created page with "To Do: Put something together for this page..."" (view diff)
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gRegor` Who is joinerman?
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gRegor` joinerman: Once you add yourself to /irc-people, that 'who is' will work.
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www.dmrutherford.com edited /IRC_People (+60) "/* Nicknames */" (view diff)
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joinerman who is joinerman?
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Loqi https://indiewebcamp.com/User:Www.dmrutherford.com
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@pwcc @airbornesurfer What plugin are you using for posting to social networks? I've got indieweb installed but can't figure out the trick. (twitter.com/_/status/520017749699883008)
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gRegor-phone Hi, Kartik.
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gRegor` Chicago HWC winding down.
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@gravitydrift RT @caseorganic: In Boston for #cyborgcamp and #indiewebcamp at MIT this week. Only a few tickets left: http://t.co/6tcWKIfMBk! http://t.co… (twitter.com/_/status/520020981742448641)
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jdp23 kylewm are you here?
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@airbornesurfer @pwcc Don't use the indieweb plugin. It's broken. There's a good walkthrough on http://t.co/h7g2BxnKnD. (twitter.com/_/status/520024373747384320)
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kylewm jdp23 I'm lost in the mall ')
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kylewm think I'm close
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jdp23 there you are!
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jdp23 woot! demo'ed logging in via IndieAuth to a TapestryMaker site
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Loqi yay!
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jdp23 talking about privacy and indieweb ...
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@timmmmyboy Locked in for IndieWebCamp Boston this weekend. Can't wait! @benwerd @erinjo (twitter.com/_/status/520037141767024640)
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@MarkMorvant RT @timmmmyboy: Locked in for IndieWebCamp Boston this weekend. Can't wait! @benwerd @erinjo (twitter.com/_/status/520041627654426624)
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gRegor` Awful quiet tonight. Must be the calm before the IndieWebCamp.
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@MatthewDiiulio Why must Known be so hard to setup on my server? #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/520044730244030465)
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gregorlove.com created /Template:kartik (+324) "template" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /events/2014-10-08-homebrew-website-club (+62) "/* RSVP */ update Chicago attendees" (view diff)
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gRegor` !tell KartikPrabhu Here, have an h-card template. :D http://indiewebcamp.com/Template:kartik
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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kylewm how was HWC Chicago, gRegor`?
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gRegor` It was good! Had another unannounced guest, David from Fife, Scotland. He's hoping to move to Chicago.
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gRegor` He's known about indieweb for a couple years, but this is the first time he's been within 1000 miles of a meetup
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gRegor` Glad to see word is getting out.
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gRegor` (about the Chicago meetup)
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gRegor` Did you find your HWC in the mall?
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gregorlove.com edited /events/2014-10-08-homebrew-website-club (+307) "/* Notes */ Chicago" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /events/2014-10-08-homebrew-website-club (+106) "/* Photos */ photo placeholders" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:hwc-2014-10-08-chi.jpg]]""
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gregorlove.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:hwc-2014-10-08-chi-guest.jpg]]""
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gregorlove.com edited /events/2014-10-08-homebrew-website-club (+27) "/* Chicago */ Photos" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu_ Yo
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Loqi KartikPrabhu_: gRegor` left you a message 1 day, 9 hours ago: On for HWC 10/8?
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Loqi KartikPrabhu_: gRegor` left you a message 56 minutes ago: Here, have an h-card template. :D http://indiewebcamp.com/Template:kartik
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KartikPrabhu_ Thanks gregor`
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KartikPrabhu_ Bret you don't need an annotation system to use marginalia.js make a comment form that takes a reference phrase as input and use the corresponding fragmetion as a data attribute and marginalia.js does stuff for you
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@kevinmarks "@PrivacyInnovate: Tim Berners Lee: "The data we create about ourselves should be owned by each of us" http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/oct/08/sir-tim-berners-lee-speaks-out-on-data-ownership " #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/520094467635044352)
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jonnybarnes howdy people
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jonnybarnes anyone here use znc?
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@jordan_web Tim Berners-Lee - "The data we create about ourselves should be owned by each of us" http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/oct/08/sir-tim-berners-lee-speaks-out-on-data-ownership #IndieWeb (twitter.com/_/status/520112413668941824)
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@torrey Testing the new #known site and the #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/520136620276584450)
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@RealSystems1 Merging your data with other data #TimBernersLee http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/oct/08/sir-tim-berners-lee-speaks-out-on-data-ownership #ownyourdata #bigdata (twitter.com/_/status/520139333177978880)
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@robertgcarr Dundee Makerspace Web Workshop - The IndieWeb https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/web-workshop-001-the-indieweb-tickets-13600109293 21 Oct #opensource #drupal (twitter.com/_/status/520141000434405376)
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christopheducamp.com edited /IndieWebCampParis (+119) "[fr: moved myself to "supporter"]" (view diff)
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@OpenSourceUG RT @robertgcarr: Dundee Makerspace Web Workshop - The IndieWeb https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/web-workshop-001-the-indieweb-tickets-13600109293 21 Oct #opensource #drupal (twitter.com/_/status/520143099881095168)
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jonnybarnes !tell barnabywalters I've added a u-uid for jonnybarnes.uk to my homepage's h-card, both our auth algo implementations now behave as we want them to, i.e. my author url is now my homepage: https://shrewdness.waterpigs.co.uk/test/?url=https://jonnybarnes.uk%2Fnotes/3Y
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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jonnybarnes !tell barnabywalters I've added a u-uid for jonnybarnes.uk to my homepage's h-card, both our auth algo implementations now behave as we want them to, i.e. my author url is now my homepage: https://shrewdness.waterpigs.co.uk/test/?url=https://jonnybarnes.uk/notes/3Y
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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@madewithcustard RT @robertgcarr: Dundee Makerspace Web Workshop - The IndieWeb https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/web-workshop-001-the-indieweb-tickets-13600109293 21 Oct #opensource #drupal (twitter.com/_/status/520154061782663168)
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@xtof_fr Apprenons á cuisiner nos données personnelles avec le #bigdata /by #TimBernersLee http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/oct/08/sir-tim-berners-lee-speaks-out-on-data-ownership #ownyourdata #bigdata #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/520164543025004544)
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@SwarmCore It's complicated, but our game promotes #netneutrality Really really! We don't want ComCast to rule the world #gamedev #indiedev #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/520197250581266432)
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ben_thatmustbeme good morning #indiewebcamp
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reedstrm morning, ben_thatmustbeme
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reedstrm and all
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ben.thatmustbe.me created /indieconfig (+26) "redirect to indie-config" (view diff)
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Loqi [mention] http://blog.raptnrent.me/2014/10/09/pose-and-openness/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (pingback)
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@VictorRSolis Why I Joined the #IndieWeb Movement: http://airbornesurfer.com/2014/10/why-i-joined-the-indieweb-movement/ via @airbornesurfer (twitter.com/_/status/520220709088292866)
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@benwerd Yes, you can build great products without spying on users. #indieweb http://werd.io/2014/yes-you-can-build-great-products-without-spying-on-users (twitter.com/_/status/520222810539442177)
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ben_thatmustbeme can someone test out ben.thatmustbe.me in FF
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ben_thatmustbeme nevermind, its back now
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ben_thatmustbeme weird
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@iNavegar Yes, you can build great products without spying on users. #indieweb http://werd.io/2014/yes-you-can-build-great-products-without-spying-on-users (twitter.com/_/status/520244790404063232)
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KevinMarks__ https://medium.com/message/tilde-club-i-had-a-couple-drinks-and-woke-up-with-1-000-nerds-a8904f0a2ebf
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@kopfzeiler Ello war gestern. Jetzt kommt @tildeclub. Ich liebe die Ideen von @ftrain. https://medium.com/message/tilde-club-i-had-a-couple-drinks-and-woke-up-with-1-000-nerds-a8904f0a2ebf #Indieweb #Retroooo (twitter.com/_/status/520262116066881536)
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timowens.io edited /2014/Cambridge/Guest_List (+363) "/* Participants */" (view diff)
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Loqi [mention] http://pilchernet.com/2014/10/09/the-indie-web/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com (webmention)
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@Coocooo266 RT @kopfzeiler: Ello war gestern. Jetzt kommt @tildeclub. Ich liebe die Ideen von @ftrain. https://medium.com/message/tilde-club-i-had-a-couple-drinks-and-woke-up-with-1-000-nerds-a8904f0a2ebf #Indieweb #Retroooo (twitter.com/_/status/520264750442496001)
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kylewm Looking forward to other tilde clubs springing up... i'd start one if I could think of a clever name :)
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davidmead What’s the first rule of tilde club again ;-)
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gRegor` I still need to come up with something for my tilde.club
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@kevinmarks A humanist approach to understanding your users @benwerd http://werd.io/2014/yes-you-can-build-great-products-without-spying-on-users #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/520267241481199616)
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reedstrm what is tilde club
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "tilde club" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=tilde+club
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shaners ~ tilde.club ~ is an exclusive silo that you're prolly not a member of. http://tilde.club
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@kulturdiktator RT @kopfzeiler: Ello war gestern. Jetzt kommt @tildeclub. Ich liebe die Ideen von @ftrain. https://medium.com/message/tilde-club-i-had-a-couple-drinks-and-woke-up-with-1-000-nerds-a8904f0a2ebf #Indieweb #Retroooo (twitter.com/_/status/520273650688491521)
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gregorlove.com edited /Main_Page (+0) "/* Homebrew Website Club */ 10/22" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /events/next-hwc (+0) "10/22" (view diff)
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reedstrm @sigh@ so tilde.club is "retro" web, basically nostalgia for "simpler times" copying the old look and tools, though w/ a non-corporate, community feel, while indieweb is reinvigorating the principles of the old web, not the look or technologies.
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@mcburton I think @ftrain's ~.club is the first user-friendly & comprehensible manifestation of #indieweb I've encountered https://medium.com/message/tilde-club-i-had-a-couple-drinks-and-woke-up-with-1-000-nerds-a8904f0a2ebf (twitter.com/_/status/520275641963659264)
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gregorlove.com edited /Template:Homebrew_Website_Club (+216) "+HWC through end of year. Guessing we won't have one on 12/31." (view diff)
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gregorlove.com created /events/2014-11-05-homebrew-website-club (+4321) "11/5 HWC" (view diff)
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@reedstrm @mcburton @ftrain How is that #indieweb? It's just retro webhosting: if the guy (or corp.) paying the bills can pull the plug ... (twitter.com/_/status/520276449253928960)
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gRegor` Or it's just a fun thing to play around with.
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reedstrm gRegor` no argument from me on if it's fun, and retro and "cool" - just, it's not "own your own data" just cause you used 'vi' to edit it. On someone else's server.
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gregorlove.com created /events/2014-11-19-homebrew-website-club (+4321) "11/19 HWC" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com created /events/2014-12-03-homebrew-website-club (+4321) "12/3 HWC" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com created /events/2014-12-17-homebrew-website-club (+4321) "12/17 HWC" (view diff)
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@ftrain @reedstrm @mcburton pretty easy to build paths from HTML in~user accounts on unix boxes to fully-owned indieweb presences ala @t (twitter.com/_/status/520277990690021378)
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gRegor` There is also https://github.com/tildeclub/tilde.club
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gRegor` May not be indieweb by itself, but cool if it's (re-)sparking interest in homepages.
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tantek it's teaching indieweb building blocks
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@soycamo we should build our own place on the internet to socialize, where we own the servers. indieweb + @CollectQT 's stuff (twitter.com/_/status/520281098845429760)
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@kyle_wm @mcburton the most user-friendly and comprehensible #indieweb is a shell account on a UNIX machine. even if you're right, ouch, that hurts! (twitter.com/_/status/520281557638979585)
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@reedstrm @mcburton @ftrain #indieweb is about own your stuff, not about the tools. (twitter.com/_/status/520283218244042753)
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@reedstrm @mcburton @ftrain Paul it's a cool thing, I'm a unix/linux head from way back. Ran a LUG and all. It's #DIYWeb which can feed #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/520284014851424257)
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reedstrm Hating on the 140 charright about now.
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gRegor` kylewm: Interesting reply-contet UI on your homepage vs the permanent link. Didn't notice that until Kartik pointed it out last night.
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gRegor` Too cluttered with full reply-context on the homepage?
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kylewm yep, exactly
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KevinMarks__ Encouraging tilde.club people to use webmentions and microformats is still good
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@kartik_prabhu List of things users don’t care about. #indieweb http://petewarden.com/2013/01/09/things-users-dont-care-about/#2013-01-18 (twitter.com/_/status/520287846687453184)
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@gRegorLove RT @kartik_prabhu: List of things users don’t care about. #indieweb http://petewarden.com/2013/01/09/things-users-dont-care-about/#2013-01-18 (twitter.com/_/status/520288268555124736)
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reedstrm KevinMarks_ right right, I sort of jumped on the idea that 'cause it's retro and unix, it must be indieweb
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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KartikPrabhu_ Ello #indiewebcamp
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gRegor` I think you mean: Personal website #indiewebcamp ;)
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KevinMarks__ It's more retro than indieweb, but ~ sites matter
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reedstrm KevinMarks_++
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Loqi KevinMarks has 66 karma
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KevinMarks__ I was at university too early for them, but they were what academics had for ages
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KartikPrabhu_ We still have them :-(
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bitsandcrafts hi
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KevinMarks__ We had groggs http://www.groggs.group.cam.ac.uk/
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KartikPrabhu_ This irc client on mobile sucks out now
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gRegor` Thanks, KevinMarks. Now I at least have a start. http://tilde.club/~gRegorLove/ :)
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gRegor` Hi, bitsandcrafts. Welcome.
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@IndieGameGuys RT LisaVProulx: Indie Authors don’t have time to tweet about your book all day? Let me do it for you! Indie Auth... http://indieauthorpromotions.com/ (twitter.com/_/status/520288687389937667)
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@dietrich @lmorchard You're speaking #indieweb! http://indiewebcamp.com/ (twitter.com/_/status/520291575276924929)
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lmorchard dietrich: Hi there :D
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dietrich hey lmorchard :D i should've guessed you'd already be here ;)
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lmorchard Well, I’ve been lurking off and on, and been absent for long stretches
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gregorlove.com created /tilde.club (+363) "stub" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /tilde.club (+20) "p-summary" (view diff)
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kylewm anybody familiar with markbox.io?
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kylewm just noticed it's gone, was going to add to site-deaths
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gRegor` Nope. What was it?
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kylewm put markdown in a Dropbox folder -> publish blog posts on their server
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kylewm "When the server went away (due to some poor planning and communication on my part) I lost the app, the database, and - even more frustratingly - the database backup."
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kylewm I don't think that one can be blamed on the database... :$
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gRegor` Heh, yeahhh
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gRegor` Don't put all your eggs in one server.
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gRegor` Definitely worth putting on /site-deaths
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lmorchard Hmm I think markbox.io is also what this used to be https://github.com/sivy/boxpub
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gRegor` Looks like: http://www.monkinetic.com/2014/09/02/boxpub
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kylewm.com edited /site-deaths (+250) "/* 2014 */ add markbox.io 2014-08-??" (view diff)
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danlyke Reposted from #indiechat: Further thought on yesterday's IndieWebCamp wiki logins and multiple identities per indie-web domain thread: Just realized another use case (beyond married couples with a pre-nup concerning distribution of virtual assets) for multiple identities: I'm "Facebook friends" with a number of my friends' pets...
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danlyke That seems to be a need for separate identities that isn't as separate as our online web identities sometimes are (ie: I'm a different "Dan Lyke" on LinkedIn than I am on Facebook, but pretty liberal about those two tying back together, I'm an entirely different name on MetaFilter and Sensible Erection...)
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kylewm lmorchard: yep i saw boxpub in your blog post comments, that's how i got started down that hole :)
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lmorchard Ah, okay :)
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kylewm danlyke: I think those two identities would be two different domain names, right? you wouldn't want to be me@danlyke.com for one and anonymous@danlyke.com for the other
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gRegor` danlyke: I haven't seen the conversation you're referencing, but you mean support for example.com/user1 and example.com/user2 when using indieauth?
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danlyke kylewm: Exactly, those two identities for me are fairly diverse, but I would totally want www.flutterby.net/User:DanLyke and www.flutterby.net/User:MyCat (if I still had a cat)
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danlyke gRegor` yes, this came up because my OpenID/IndieAuth/etc identity/login URL is http://www.flutterby.net/User:DanLyke in anticipation that my wife's will be http://www.flutterby.net/User:CharleneMarie when she needs one. Discussion yesterday was about how support for multiple users per domain was kind of an edge case, and several such domains had been blocked from indiewebcamp.com login.
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kylewm *.github.io in that case
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kylewm which I didn't know had been blocked from indieauth
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kylewm or just the wiki maybe?
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danlyke yeah, maybe I misunderstood that, or could just be the wiki.
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reedstrm What about using hosts to distinguish? CNAMEs are cheap.
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danlyke That's exactly the github.io situation.
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carmen abolish DNS cartel-oriented thinking
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danlyke carmen++
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Loqi carmen has 2 karma
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gRegor` *.github.io blocked from the wiki makes sense
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kylewm just checked
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kylewm it works for indieauth, but blocked from the wiki -- redirects to http://indiewebcamp.com/Special:IndieAuth?error=subdomain
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gRegor` What's DNS cartel-oriented thinking?
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gRegor` (The "What's" trick is nice to avoid unintentional tanteking)
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kylewm anybody have a *.withknown.com? can you log in to the wiki with it?
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shaners I'm of two minds about subdomains for identity / login.
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danlyke Ah: the "DNS cartel-oriented thinking" is the "Tie identity to an identifier that we lease from the DNS cartels" problem. Really, it's not a whole lot better than a example.com/~username identifier that we lease from an ISP.
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gRegor` I don't understand
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tfontaine gRegor` I think it means your domain is only your domain because the DNS gods have allowed it to stay that way.
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shaners 1. i don't own or control the future of veganstarightedge.github.io or veganstarightedge.withknown.com
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shaners 2. but firstname.farmilyname.com is not totally uncommon
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gRegor` Sorry, to clarify I get it with github.io, withknown, etc.
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gRegor` Just don't understand why subdomain.gregorlove.com is a DNS cartel thing any more than just gregorlove.com is (if I'm understanding correctly)
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kylewm I think the point is using a domain name for identity at all relies on ICANN or whatever to allow you
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kylewm as opposed to like a public key?
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gRegor` kylewm: I connected my twitter to my .withknown, but it doesn't show up on the public page apparently? So no wiki login.
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kylewm gRegor`: you have to be using the "solo" theme
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gRegor` Oh, duh. I'd have to change my twitter link to withknown.
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gRegor` Meh
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kylewm or use email+persona
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gRegor` Maybe later. Or we can just ask aaronpk if he's bocked it.
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gRegor` s/bocked/blocked/
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Loqi gRegor` meant to say: Maybe later. Or we can just ask aaronpk if he's blocked it.
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kylewm gRegor`: also interested in whether you can log in via http://tilde.club/~gRegorLove/
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KevinMarks_ I log into the wiki with known.kevinmarks.com (which is hosted on withknown.com, but using my own domain)
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KevinMarks_ I think subdomain for indieauth should be OK, but not necessarily for the indieweb wiki
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KevinMarks_ There is some nuance there, yes, but subdomains are handled differently from paths in the web platform in general
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gRegor` tilde.club works http://indiewebcamp.com/User:Tilde.club_~gregorlove
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gRegor` Not sure how to add email to Known. Don't see an option to publicly display it.
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KevinMarks_ Can you add a mailto url to the links?
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gRegor` Aha. Yep
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aaronpk_ Hello from Boston!
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gRegor` Hi, aaronpk_
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aaronpk_ Wow ind.ie is taking over SyncThing!
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aaronpk_ SyncThing being an open source equivalent of btsync
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gRegor` And *.withknown.com works too http://indiewebcamp.com/User:Gregorlove.withknown.com
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gRegor` And bye, aaronpk_
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icco Question: How are people dealing with posting content from their site to social networks? Manually? Synchronously? Or some nice asynchronous setup?
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icco I'm trying to come up with a good way to do it asynchronously, but haven't got a good design yet
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bear aaronpk_ yea, but GPLv3 *blech*
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gRegor` icco: I use http://brid.gy to publish to Twitter
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Loqi bear: tantek left you a message 4 days ago: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-10-05#t1412539342956 ;)
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gRegor` icco: See https://www.brid.gy/about#publishing for more info
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gRegor` Several of us use it so can help with questions or problems.
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icco gRegor`, ah cool. I remember that being mentioned, but I thought it was only for webmentions, not for posting. thanks!
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gRegor` icco: And snarfed1 is the one who runs it :)
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icco That's what I thought.
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icco has a bad habit of trying to reinvent the wheel
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gRegor` icco: It's pretty cool. You basically send a webmention to the bridgy publish endpoint and voila, it does the magic
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snarfed1 aww thanks gRegor`!
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icco Ah, and here's the source! https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy
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gRegor` bridgy publish does have a form field you can paste your URL into to manually publish, too.
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icco Hosted on GAE, why am I not surprised :p
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snarfed1 has a hammer
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icco :)
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gRegor` async is recommended. My UI definitely hangs sometimes while waiting for the bridgy publish response.
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icco snarfed1, bug me if you guys ever go over that 5GB limit, I know a guy.
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gRegor` I suspect that's more twitter api slowness than bridgy
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snarfed1 icco: 5gb limit?
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icco gRegor`, yeah. I want to be async, I've drawn up like three designs for doing it myself though and they all seem wrong or strange
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icco snarfed1, oh in your readme you mention you backup your data to GCS and there's a 5gb free quota
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snarfed1 gRegor`: re latency, also the fetch of your own site, at least for publish :P
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snarfed1 icco: ahhh got it. heh. thanks! 5G comfortably gets me snapshot backups for over a month, which is fine, but i'll definitely let you know
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gRegor` Nonsense. My site is always lightning fast! ;)
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icco :)
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KevinMarks_ Does bridgy publish post to blogger?
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kylewm KevinMarks_: twitter and facebook only right now
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snarfed1 KevinMarks: not yet, but it's a great feature request
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snarfed1 KevinMarks_: https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/276
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snarfed1 runs off to change a diaper :P
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kylewm KevinMarks_: would you want publishing comments or publishing posts?
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KevinMarks_ It does reflect connects back to blogger, but I'd like to send it a posse post
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KevinMarks_ Eg sending http://www.kevinmarks.com/twitterhatespeech.html to http://epeus.blogspot.com/2014/10/how-did-twitter-become-hate-speech-wing.html
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danlyke iccio: I insert into a table for "statusupdates", and then record numbers from that table into "update_facebook", "update_twitter", "update_flutterby" etc., along with a timestamp and a delay factor. I then have a queue runner that runs every 5 minutes and attempts to push those various updates out, deleting the records from the update_* table as those posts succeed.
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kylewm icco: i use the RedisQueue python library to send and receive webmentions and do POSSE stuff
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icco kylewm, interesting, so you just write into a queue when you save the post, and then read from the queue, create a short link and post?
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icco (that last post meaning share to other sites)
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snarfed1 KevinMarks_: good request. definitely feel free to add to that issue or create a new one
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kylewm icco: not that exciting, i do basically the same thing danlyke described just using a queue worker and redis instead of a db table
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icco danlyke, neat, do you use a short link or any sort of truncator on your content?
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icco kylewm, do you keep any historical record, or just clear the queue once the worker has come through?
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danlyke I used to, before Twitter started auto-shortening. I do a little bit of prep work, if it's longer than 140 characters and the Twitter shortener wouldn't make it shorter, I crop at the first space before 118 (or the https?://) and insert a link to the full entry on my site.
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icco ah, twitter does autoshortening on API requests as well? I did not know that, assumed only did it on website posts for some reason
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danlyke I also explicitly extract links and send them to Facebook as a "FEEDLINK" rather than a "STATUS", so Facebook grabs the preview (makes posting pictures to Facebook actually work nicer for the end user than the native Facebook UI).
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icco ooh, neat tip
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icco thanks
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danlyke yep. 22(?) characters (usually I'm conservative on this).
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icco I had always heard 20, but I haven't tested in a while.
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danlyke I use the PHP utility "fbcmd" to do the Facebook posting. A bit of a PITA because Facebook is getting away from authorizing non web apps, so I have to re-auth regularly.
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danlyke Twitter's URL shortener used to be shorter, but then they went to https:// on everything. That added at least a char.
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icco ah
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snarfed1 re twitter link lengths: https://dev.twitter.com/docs/counting-characters , https://dev.twitter.com/rest/reference/get/help/configuration#highlighter_933136
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icco Cool, thanks for the tips peoples. Gonna go give this all a try.
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snarfed1 danlyke: agreed that fb's new(ish) 2mo token expiration is annoying for non-web apps. for bridgy, i actually ended up generating fb notifications so users know they need to re-auth. https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/59
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danlyke Oh, and I use the separate tables for the update with the premature optimization notion that an index scan on a boolean value was probably less efficient than a separate table with "this needs attention".
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danlyke snarfed: Good idea. I've just been waiting 'til my posts don't show up, but I should set up a tool so my wife can easily re-auth her side of things... and this is how command-line tools and quick hacks become unmaintainable nightmares of interconnected little scripts strung across multiple servers.
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snarfed danlyke: heh, yeah. also, usability and maintainability req'ts are much different if it's just you vs other users. for just yourself, something as minimal as a recurring calendar reminder may be enough as a reminder to re-auth
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danlyke snarfed yeah, also fbcmd doesn't return an error code for unauthed, and I haven't written a wrapper to check yet, and...
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snarfed danlyke: does your server send webmentions?
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snarfed if so, i obviously have a bridge to sell you :P
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icco https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Ikl1_jfhKLI/UWLJmQkVJKI/AAAAAAAACNs/EAjRth0mmos/s1600/bridge-for-sale.png
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snarfed icco++
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danlyke snarfed, I have webmention meta tags for inbound, and I have some half-finished code for outbounds, but I'm still skeptical on the whole notion of webmentions (ie: Referer tracking v.3).
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Loqi icco has 1 karma
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danlyke I do, however, check all of the /irc-people links (and my opml file) for RSS feeds, and look for inbound links from them.
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danlyke errr: meant to say "Referer(sic) tracking v.*4*"
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snarfed danlyke: sure. i'm not religious about webmentions specifically, they just happen to be the trigger for bridgy publish, which warns you when its auth expires, in case you're interested in trying it
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snarfed https://www.brid.gy/about#publish
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danlyke snarfed, I am thinking that I should implement it on my status updates feed and see if I can get a real-time chat going, so I may get there.
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ben_thatmustbeme yay, first successful syndication with permashortlinkcitation
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ben_thatmustbeme s/link//
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Loqi ben_thatmustbeme meant to say: yay, first successful syndication with permashortcitation
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snarfed danlyke: oh wow. real time chat via webmention? people have brainstormed, but you'd be the first to build something. http://indiewebcamp.com/messaging , http://indiewebcamp.com/indieweb-messaging
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tfontaine Oh, that's a fancy bot response.
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ben_thatmustbeme danlyke, i wanted to move on to real-time chat soon-ish
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danlyke Basically, real-time chat is all "we're responding to this post", right?
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ben_thatmustbeme thats why i did the whole reply-context all the way back
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danlyke The hard part is that I need to move to a web page infrastructure that has background updating.
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snarfed danlyke: cron? only half kidding.
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snarfed oh, for real time chat. nm.
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danlyke Yeah, meta-refresh seems like a bad idea. I've played with some of the real-time Node frameworks, but... Should probably learn those rather than hacking something together with http://meteorserver.org/
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ben_thatmustbeme danlyke, i want to work out doing it privately too, plus group messaging
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ben_thatmustbeme theres going to be several interesting pieces to it.
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ben_thatmustbeme i think it should be easily accomplishable with micropub and a single site though
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ben_thatmustbeme well, all but the private bit
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ben_thatmustbeme anyway gotta go catch a train
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tfontaine Forgive me if this is ignorant, but why that over just self-hosting a ejabberd server or something?
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danlyke ben_thatmustbeme of course the other thing I've thought about is: Why are we using HTTP for our sharing, rather than XMPP or RetroShare's protocol or BitTorrent Chat or something built for real-timeness.
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danlyke ie: what tfontaine said.
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tantek danlyke because no one has got that working. or rather, URL to a real world example of what you speak.
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tantek works today IRL trumps any amount of handwaving architecture jargon mumbo jumbo
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tantek and further: permalinks, longevity
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tantek keeps scrolling back in the logs
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danlyke tantek, I did have NNTP working for a while. Never got uptake on that...
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tantek danlyke - great - did you have any permalinks that you can still point to?
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tantek did that "DNS cartel" discussion result in any concrete alternatives that people proposed or better, actually use day to day?
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danlyke Yep. All the Flutterby.com posts went out to NNTP, and comments came back. So, to your point, all the permalinks that still exist are HTTP (if I still had the server up, they'd also be available via Message-ID)
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tantek danlyke - so that's my point. the permalinks work via HTTP. so why bother with a second protocol at that layer?
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tantek same problem with all the JSON(-LD)/RSS/Atom advocates
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tantek the permalinks that work do so via HTML served over HTTP, why waste the time duplicating in a secondary format / file / URL?
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tantek (nevermind making something more fragile, less visible etc.)
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danlyke Because we're having this conversation over a channel that's not HTTP. I'd prefer it over email or NNTP, because both of those have local caches and permanent archives and are more easily searchable and organizable.
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danlyke And, because as of right now: There are about as many people in my social circles that I'd like to engage in conversation running any of these other hypothetical protocols as there are running WebMention.
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danlyke And a hell of a lot more of those folks are running RSS and Atom than microformats (which is why I'm scanning for inbound links from those feeds and haven't yet bothered to put microformats in my parser)
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shaners comparing rss/atom to mf is apples an oranges
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shaners a fairer comparision is rss/atom to html
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shaners those are all media types
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shaners mf is a format used inside one of those media types
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danlyke but RSS, Atom and Microformats all extend HTML with additional semantic content. It's just that the former are carriers for HTML (and that's a "ugh" decision, but water under the dam), and the latter is the carrier.
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danlyke In a perfect world, I like Microformats better, but from a practical standpoint I need more infrastructure before I can take advantage of the advantages of Microformats over RSS and Atom.
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tantek never a perfect world
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danlyke And I did not know that there is now a retroshare-nogui. The reason my use of it faded may have gone away...
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tantek so a) for what use-cases? and b) what infrastructure in particular?
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tantek a better world is one that makes it easier for publishers - which is what microformats do over RSS/Atom
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tantek or JSON(-LD) or whatever other sidefile/format/protocol that anyone else comes up with in the future
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danlyke the first application I've got is outbound (and why I've implemented it in my blog main page, and in the HTML feed of my personal status updates). That's a matter of putting an RSVP tag in some entries and sending Webmention pings.
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tantek danlyke, re: "lot more of those folks are running RSS and Atom" - KevinMarks' "unmung" solves that already.
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tantek re: "we're having this conversation over a channel that's not HTTP." Good Point!
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tantek and it's a hybrid right now. I have temporary connectivity, so I'm reading what you say in HTML+microformats over HTTP: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-10-09#t1412891006444
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tantek and re: other folks doing conversation -
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tantek what is pingback.io?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "pingback.io" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=pingback.io
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danlyke Unmung goes the wrong way, though. I already have the infrastructure for RSS/Atom. That's easy and well supported. I need to write the Microformats parser yet.
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tantek you don't need to write a microformats parser - they already exist
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danlyke I have to integrate them into my systems, then, it's roughly the same amount of code either way.
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tantek sorry I meant webmention.io
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tantek you can receive pingbacks via webmention.io which will then convert them into webmentions for you
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tantek danlyke what language are your systems written in?
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danlyke Perl. and some C++.
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tantek I'd say less work to use a *tested* microformats parser than write your own
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gRegor` iirc, there are both mf2-to-Atom and RSS-to-mf2 converters out now
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tantek gRegor` except those are lossy
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tantek since RSS/Atom are both dumber formats
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gRegor` Sure, but it's a step.
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danlyke Okay, so: non-hypothetical: I'm willing to suck up my WebMention skepticism to add "Like" and "Reply" buttons to http://www.flutterby.net/status/user/DanLyke
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danlyke How do I expose that interface to readers?
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tantek webactions
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gRegor` Just realized gRegor-phone is still connected even though I closed it last night.
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danlyke So how do I do the webactions <indie-action ...> tag thing without silos? I don't care if they can star it on Twitter, I'll see it there. I want them to be able to star/reply on their own site and put it under mine.
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danlyke Tantek, you'd mentioned a mime-type or something similar that the browser could use to redirect the click to the user's site (and maybe default to my own local reply/like mechanism), what was that?
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danlyke Because the existence of this capability on other people's site is a reason for me to get off my butt and get MF parsing integrated into my infrastructure.
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gRegor` A star/favorite on their own site would be a u-like-of on the link on their site, and they send you a regular webmention.
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danlyke Okay, so they're reading my site, and they discover that it's a WebMention endpoint by...?
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bear what is webmention
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Loqi Webmention is a simple way to notify any URL when you link to it on your site http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention
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danlyke (or, they discover that it has a WebMention endpoint by...?)
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bear danlyke ^^
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gRegor` danlyke: Your site would either have an HTTP Link: header with rel=webmention, or a <link rel=webmention> endpoint listed in the HTTML
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gRegor` Or both
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danlyke So all entries on http://www.flutterby.com/archives/comments/\d+.html have that <link rel=...>. If you
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danlyke 're a reader of my site, with a Webmention enabled blog of your own, how do you discover that?
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danlyke (aside from "view source", which I'm betting nobody's going to use vs my own hosted commenting system.)
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gRegor` The software should check the your link that I'm liking/replying-to and look for that Link: header or rel-value
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gRegor` http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention#endpoint_discovery
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gRegor` The rel elements are easy with an mf2 parser like php-mf2
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gRegor` Or you could just use the DOM
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danlyke gRegor` yeah, the automated bits of this are easy: I'm asking "how does the user know to use a WebMention reply?"
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gRegor` Until the software is in place, you could use #2 on http://indiewebify.me/ to send webmentions, too.
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gRegor` I don't understand, danlyke. They just post a reply. If the link they're replying to doesn't support webmentions, none are sent.
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danlyke What are the visual cues I put on my web page to say "hey, you can also comment with..."
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gRegor` I have a "Send a Response" form under my articles, but otherwise no visual cues. http://gregorlove.com/2014/02/1180/
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kylewm I have in the footer "Want to leave a comment? Send me a <a rel="webmention" ...>webmention!</a>"
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danlyke Anyone taken y'all up on those yet?
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danlyke I can't see someone using that over <form method="POST"><textarea wrap="physical"... /><input ... value="comment" type="submit">
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gRegor` I don't believe so. I've only had it up a couple months and not posted much in that time.
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kylewm ha, no idea. i've used other people's
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gRegor` I've used other people's too. I recently realized I'm not tracking use of that form, so it's on my list.
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kylewm danlyke: I also use <indie-actions> if provided
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gRegor` I'm an exception to most in that I still have local blog comments in addition to webmention.
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gRegor` That could well go away at some point in the future, though
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danlyke gRegor` yeah, me too. In fact given my experience with Referer/Trackback/Pingback, I'm guessing it's easier to manage spam with local blog comments. But Tantek is optimistic, so I'm willing to try...
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gRegor` There is a webmention logo, too. There was discussion a while ago about whether to advertise that on one's site, a la the RSS icon.
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gRegor` I think most are opposed to that idea though. Advertising plumbing, meaningless term to most people.
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danlyke So "Ctrl-F logo" on http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention finds nothing.
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gRegor` I like the idea of subtly suggesting "Hey, write a response on your site and let me know the link"
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KevinMarks__ If you want to get webmentions, sign up for bridgy
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gRegor` It's at the top of the page, danlyke.
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gRegor` http://indiewebcamp.com/File:webmention-logo.svg
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KevinMarks__ Look at my site - most are via bridgy
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danlyke Ah, but not in text.
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gRegor` I don't know of anyone using it on their site, so it probably hasn't been captured in wiki text.
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danlyke Ah, okay, so the main use case is publish to the silos, capture replies from the silos.
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gRegor` In theory you could run webmention contents through Akismet just like local blog comments.
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gRegor` I have had no webmention spam, but still get occasional local comment spam (site's been up since 2002 though).
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danlyke gRegor` yeah, in practice just not having Wordpress input names has been enough that I've been able to manage the spam with the occasional DELETE FROM weblogcomments WHERE id=...;
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danlyke Webmention thus far is more obscure than my blog. I'm guessing every URL on my site gets several Pingback/Trackback spams a day, just as POSTs, without any discovery info in the HTML (I disabled those endpoints a decade ago)
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gRegor` I don't know if I'd say that's the main use case of webmention. It's a popular one, because there's so many more people on silos than have their own sites with webmention support. It's nice that I can respond to kylewm directly on his site though instead of going through twitter.
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danlyke (there was a period there where the spam bots actually loaded the HTML and used form names, but that only lasted a few years)
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kylewm seems like wordpress itself could mitigate that
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kylewm if just each blog had its own set of field names
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gRegor` Re-phrased: I'm personally more excited about being able to comment on other sites via webmention than I am pulling in backfeed from Twitter. I'll see the Twitter stuff anyway, and honestly who favorited a note is not going to be very important to me in 5 years. :)
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danlyke kylewm For cross-site scripting protection purposes you should be putting a nonce in your forms anyway (confession: I haven't yet), so there's no reason to just generate nonsence form names for every page view.
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gRegor` Does WordPress not nonce their default comment form?
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danlyke gRegor` yeah, I just haven't needed to scratch the "comment on a Webmention site" itch yet.
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danlyke gRegor` no idea on WordPress nonces, I'm just assuming that the field names my spam logger is catching are Wordpress names. (I log for a bit, find the major offenders, "ufw deny" them, traffic on the server drops dramatically)
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gRegor` fun times :)
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danlyke So for real-time chat, we would need: A way for a user to discover that they can comment on a status update on my site. Them typing up a response and sending a Webmention to my site. My site getting that webmention, grabbing the appropriate h-whatever section of their HTML page, and incorporating it into the response stream, right?
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danlyke (Should have numbered those)
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danlyke Currently 1 (discovery) is "some text in the footer". 2, generating the response is up to them. The webmention/h-stuff is my responsibility. Seems like (barring my concerns about spam), we're kind of stuck at #1.
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gRegor` I don't understand the trouble with discovery
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danlyke "Copy and paste this link to your site to comment on this" is not a UI that anyone I know IRL would participate in.
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danlyke (I know a few people online who might, but they don't update their blogs any more and just live on Twitter and Facebook, so I may be overestimating their dedication to the cause)
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kylewm why not indie-action?
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kylewm "Reply" link at the bottom of the status update. I click on it, it takes me to my site with the reply context alread filled in
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gRegor` For those who are on silos, if you're using /POSSE and /backfeed, they need no instructions at all. They just interact with the silo copy of your information.
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danlyke You mean "indie-config"?
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danlyke I think that's what I was looking for...
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gRegor` If/when they try out something like withknown.com, they will get used tot he concept of posting a status /in-reply-to a link.
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kylewm No, I don't do indie-config
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kylewm I use a greasemonkey script to swap out the <indie-action> with a link to my site
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gRegor` Like aaronpk said yesterday: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-10-08#t1412799432176
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gRegor` what is indie-action?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "indie-action" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=indie-action
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gRegor` What?
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gRegor` indie-action == webaction, right? Or no?
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kylewm.com created /indie-action (+24) "Redirected page to [[webactions]]" (view diff)
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kylewm yep
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danlyke I think so: http://indiewebcamp.com/webactions has the <indie-action...> tag.
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danlyke I was comparing to http://indiewebcamp.com/indie-config
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gRegor` kylewm beat me to it
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danlyke I guess I'm still skeptical about "people with a greasemonkey script can comment, everyone else gets sent to a silo". Maybe I need to implement local comments so that those examples don't seem like Silo traffic drivers.
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danlyke errr... implement indie-action with local comments.
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gRegor` tantek had suggested to me at one point sending people to Twitter to reply instead of local blog comments. I didn't care for that and the local blog comments are still worth it to me over the small nuisance of spam, so I agree I'd rather not send people to a silo
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kylewm maybe you could add a <indie-action> tag around the comment form
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danlyke So all of the indie-action examples have <a href="...">. Does y'all's Greasemonkey script handle wrapping <form...>s?
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danlyke gRegor` exactly. If people don't "own" their own comments, I'd much rather "own" them than Twitter.
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kylewm danlyke: theoretically it should work :)
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gRegor` If it's a note that I have syndicated to Twitter (the majority are), I'm not opposed to a "reply on Twitter" link (or RT, fave)
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danlyke kylewm hooooookay :-) Guess I need to set up my Webmention thingie to do the "excerpt the remote content" bits, and when I'm reasonably certain I'm there ask one of y'all to test it.
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danlyke (right now it's just grabbing titles, 'cause it's the same thing as my inbound links from RSS feeds checker)
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gRegor` You "own" them either way.
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gRegor` Or rather, you "have a copy" of them either way.
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danlyke gRegor` yeah, but if I can do this without encouraging people to use a silo, I consider that a win. Otherwise I
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danlyke 'd just use disqus and backup from there database regularly.
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danlyke s/there/their/
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Loqi danlyke meant to say: 'd just use disqus and backup from their database regularly.
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danlyke Okay, so: wrapped the <form> with an <indie-action ...>
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snarfed danlyke: re disqus, in case no one's pointed you to it yet: https://webmention.herokuapp.com/
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danlyke Still don't have a good excerpter, probably need to harass the people who's RSS feeds I check for inbound links to put microformats in their pages so I can grab summary text rather than titles.
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snarfed could complement disqus nicely, and you wouldn't have to implement either wm receiving or local commenting
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danlyke Yeah, I run a database (grins, ducks & runs), so local commenting is pretty easy.
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kylewm danlyke: it looks like you wrapped with <indie> not <indie-action> ?
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kylewm and apparently you are supposed to call registerComponent("indie-action") ?
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kylewm nm, that doesn't work
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danlyke Ah. Thanks. My HTML template cleaner apparently uses \w+ for valid tag names....
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danlyke (Interestingly, I got it right for attribute names, and I allowed ":" for namespacing XML in that portion of the cleaner. Now I have this awful desire to go read specs and find out which HTML or XML version didn't allow '-' in element names.
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danlyke (well, interestingly to me)
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danlyke Anyway, there it is.
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kylewm i believe hyphen is the new thing that allows you to define your own Web Components
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kylewm the tag used to be <action> before adactio (I think) told us it needed a hyphen
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KevinMarks__ Finding a feed with summary and content that are different is rare these days
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danlyke KevinMarks__ yeah, my backlinks structure doesn't have a body part yet. The semantics for what I should extract from the remote page for that are what I need to add...
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danlyke Oh ugh. I need to do HTML sanitization on that body, don't I? Okay, pretty sure I've got code that does that, but also pretty sure I haven't looked at it in close to a decade...
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