#indiewebcamp 2014-11-05

2014-11-05 UTC
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@elfpavlik .@oshepherd: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-socialweb/2014Nov/0053.html http://oshepherd.github.io/activitypump/ActivityPump.html go point holes :-D @SocialWebWG http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2014-11-04/line/1415144425829 @evanpro @indiewebcamp (twitter.com/_/status/529789188644675586)
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GWG Life
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aaronpk just noticed instagram's API now documents the scope values with no caveats. http://instagram.com/developer/authentication/
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aaronpk snI wonder if this means apps can now comment as users?
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aaronpk snarfed oops
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@w3cmemes @elfpavlik we’ll do that once the #WebMention REC is rescinded. (twitter.com/_/status/529849264512712705)
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snarfed aaronpk: ooh interesting. trying not to get my hopes up…
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aaronpk yeah, haven't tried anything yet but it looks different
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kylewm what is a WebMention REC?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "WebMention REC" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=WebMention+REC
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aaronpk I couldn't figure out what REC is
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aaronpk snarfed: this looks different too http://aaronparecki.com/uploads/instagram-oauth-20141104-220351.png
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snarfed huh
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@kylewm2 Still thinking about tildes https://kylewm.com/2014/10/can-t-shake-the-feeling-i-have-been-going-about-this-indieweb-thing-all-wrong (twitter.com/_/status/529891083094724608)
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kylewm ha, that is the wrong stub!
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: being creative and owning your data are quite related see old post: https://kartikprabhu.com/article/redux##Using+the+right+tools
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KartikPrabhu which of course shows your face in Likes ;)
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kylewm KartikPrabhu++ good point!
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Loqi KartikPrabhu has 77 karma
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: yeah. I don't care about CMSs (they get in the way) and write HTML files for articles myself. But everyone having the same thing Twitter, G+ etc... makes every one look/do the same things so no creativity there
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KevinMarks__ Well, the early blog tools let you write html in your posts; they forced you to really
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KevinMarks__ That's something Facebook g+ and twitter subtracted
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks_ yes but CMSs haven't evolved much with their UI comapred to G+ and others
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@LukasZielinski @klaustrainer just wanted to add something to your post but I need to use webmention? :P (twitter.com/_/status/529966812537323520)
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@KlausTrainer @LukasZielinski Well, yes. In case you can't speak webmention: just send me a link to your reply, and I'll manually add it myself :) (twitter.com/_/status/529969527879397377)
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@LukasZielinski @klaustrainer ok, let me try webmention.io with my jekyll blog first, though. ;) (twitter.com/_/status/529969684087848960)
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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@joelgaines Should Doctors Create Culture of Health Literacy? http://http://blog.lifetimehealthdiary.com/doctors-need-create-culture-health-literacy/ ^jg #OwnYourData (twitter.com/_/status/530034602640150528)
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@LifeHealthDiary Should Doctors Create Culture of Health Literacy? http://http://blog.lifetimehealthdiary.com/doctors-need-create-culture-health-literacy/ ^jg #OwnYourData (twitter.com/_/status/530034609028096000)
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Loqi [mention] http://kylewm.withknown.com/2014/homebrew-website-club linked to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-11-05-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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kylewm.com edited /events/2014-11-05-homebrew-website-club (+91) "/* URLs */ added event URLs" (view diff)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/rsvp/facebook/12802152/1522116511368330/12802152 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-11-05-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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GWG I have to get on IWC Online
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GWG Hello, Pfefferle.
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pfefferle Hey GWG
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GWG What is going on?
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Loqi Welcome to news about the IndieWeb where recent notable articles about the IndieWeb are cited and linked to keep you up to date http://indiewebcamp.com/going_on
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GWG Pfefferle, I have pushed a function to my fork of Semantic Linkbacks with a count function.
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pfefferle GWG Yes, I saw it… fixed some intends and will push it later… thanks :)
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GWG I was going to say that I was having trouble with it.
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GWG The query should work according to the literature, but was being inconsistent in testing.
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pfefferle GWG hmmm, I will have a look at it...
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GWG Pfefferle I am still looking at more proposed changes.
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GWG Sorry. I may be affecting you.
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pfefferle GWG :)
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GWG Pfefferle I am reading through the Wordpress comment code for filters.
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@ShaneHudson @PenmanRoss I have known/indieweb features built into my current site. I know @kevinmarks is using Known, as are many others :) (twitter.com/_/status/530062298078273536)
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snarfed woo, bridgy hit its 1000th user yesterday!
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snarfed (stats on the http://brid.gy/ front page are ~1-2d old, as always)
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snarfed blog post in the works
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aaronpk nice!
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aaronpk congrats!
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snarfed a couple nazel-gazing growth graphs:
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snarfed https://snarfed.org/bridgy_1000_accounts.png
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snarfed https://snarfed.org/bridgy_1000_accounts_stacked.png
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aaronpk ooo
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myfreeweb I've logged into brid.gy with twitter yesterday... Am I the 1000th user? :)
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aaronpk I want to see a graph of successful webmentions sent!
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ben_thatmustbeme nice snarfed
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snarfed aaronpk: on the todo list!
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aaronpk yay
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snarfed (*very incomplete, rough* blog post draft: https://snarfed.org/?p=11370 )
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snarfed myfreeweb: heh, not quite. https://www.brid.gy/googleplus/101184744082016026460 was the 1000th
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snarfed myfreeweb: regardless, glad you're using it!
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: your draft post does not show!
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myfreeweb not really *using* it yet, because I haven't built incoming webmention support for my engine
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myfreeweb but will use it ~soon~
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@danielindqvist @withknown Trying to sign in to IndieAuth but keep getting the following error message: No supported rel="me" .. http://danielindqvist.withknown.com/2014/withknown-trying-to-sign-in-to-indieauth-but-keep-getting (twitter.com/_/status/530077274918232065)
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: ah right. the world will just have to wait then :P
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KartikPrabhu :)
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@joelgaines Should Doctors Create Culture of Health Literacy? http://http://blog.lifetimehealthdiary.com/doctors-need-create-culture-health-literacy/ ^jg #OwnYourData (twitter.com/_/status/530083543591178242)
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@myfreeweb So, notes on my website should be automatically posted on https://App.net/ and Twitter. Also, webmentions sh… https://unrelenting.technology/notes/2014-11-05-19-56-44 (twitter.com/_/status/530086357670965248)
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kylewm anybody else coming to HWC tonight? danlyke, benwerd, erinjo, j12t? http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-11-05-homebrew-website-club
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tantek kylewm: it looks like just you and me for HWC tonight.
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tantek Chicago canceled right?
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kylewm they did, yep
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tantek Portland?
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aaronpk I forgot to post the event yesterday but I can host tonight
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aaronpk heh I need some help with my repost markup
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j12t Not me, I'm doubly booked already.
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tantek kylewm, since it's just the two of us should we do a remote/virtual hack night instead?
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aaronpk actually that's not a bad idea for me too
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kylewm tantek: great suggestion, that would be great
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kylewm I was just going to say I'd be happy to come up but didn't have much to talk about :)
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aaronpk count me in for remote participation as well
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aaronpk I have something to show as well. maybe even with a live demo :)
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danlyke kylewm gonna miss HWC tonight, got prep work for a remodeling disaster in progress to do...
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tantek kylewm - ok let's update the various event posts and such
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reedstrm Hmm, that's 8:30-9:30CST, which puts me on the mat, teaching Aikido. Tues or Thurs that's a good time, but not Mon, Wed.
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kylewm you are in TX right reedstrm?
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reedstrm yup, Houston.
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bear excellent post by @ftrain - https://medium.com/message/networks-without-networks-7644933a3100
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kylewm tantek: ok if I just say "join us in the irc channel for details"?
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kylewm and then we can figure out talky or hangouts or whateever later
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tantek yes absolutely
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reedstrm bear: that is not a post - it's a ... dissertation? mini-autobiography? Discursive personal mediation on the history of computing and personal interactions? And yes .. excellent!
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bear reedstrm - I was avoiding the more accurate description so as not to scare any one off - I want everyone to read it and absorb it
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bear because the networks without networks idea fits into indieweb oh so perfectly IMO
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reedstrm It is in fact excellent - don't let me scare anyone either!
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tantek bear, reedstrm hmm - I had a different reaction: looks like just some old-person reminiscing that has nothing to do with how people use computers today. Meh. (and I'm old enough to get all the references)
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j12t BTW, Indie Box / UBOS meetup tomorrow in Mountain View.
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reedstrm tantek: I'm the same .. vintage? but there's nuggets of insight in there, many tagged by others. What's the comment engine being used? Is that something open source?
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tantek j12t - feel free to post it on /events !
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tantek reedstrm: I didn't find any new nuggets of insight. Just the same ol' "disconnect", "unplug", "remember when", "constraints were good", "simpler was good" etc.
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tantek maybe I've just seen too many of these cycles of reminiscing
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tantek again, patterns
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reedstrm The take on what a Jobs commencement speech should really have been like? Hilarious/serious.
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tantek reedstrm: ok I'll re-read that section :)
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reedstrm Yes there's lots of that - but don't skim too lightly. Could use a good copyedit, except it's not a "I want to convince you" post, it's a "my friend died and I'm thinking about his effect on my life and my world" sort of thing, so I'll cut him the editorial slack.
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reedstrm Also, to my reading, the punchline is the _first_ paragraph of the 10/10 entry, above the teddy bear. "By my lights, people very often share technologies with each other when they talk. Strategies. Ideas for living our lives."
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Loqi [mention] http://kylewm.withknown.com/2014/homebrew-website-club linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-11-05?beta (webmention)
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aaronpk kylewm: are you updating the wiki page to note the IRC location for tonight?
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kylewm aaronpk: I am
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aaronpk cool
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upon2020.com edited /Events (+774) "added Indie Box meetup tomorrow" (view diff)
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aaronpk I will wait to rsvp until then
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kylewm.com edited /events/2014-11-05-homebrew-website-club (+185) "/* Where */" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /events/2014-11-05-homebrew-website-club (-149) "collapse sf/portland into "online" for this week" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /events/2014-11-05-homebrew-website-club (+14) "/* RSVP */ add myself" (view diff)
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tantek I'm going to challenge any/all of you who support/want/like the idea of "native" comments that you self-host on your site from "anyone with an email address" to try posting a sensible critique of GamerGate, and see if you can deal with the coordinated creative writing concern-trolling / sock-puppeting attack that results. E.g. comments section on: https://openstandard.mozilla.org/yes-gamergate-is-a-ed-tech-issue/
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/rsvp/facebook/12802152/1522116511368330/11500459 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-11-05-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/rsvp/facebook/12802152/1522116511368330/11500459 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-11-05#bottom (webmention)
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tantek !tell benwerd, snarfed Here's a challenge re: support/want/like "native" comments on your blog/site from "anyone with an email address" http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-11-05/line/1415222606077
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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indiewebcat.com edited /events/2014-11-05-homebrew-website-club (+118) "/* RSVP */ meow!" (view diff)
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kylewm I LOVE INDIEWEBCAT
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KartikPrabhu1 tantek: do you think such non-sense comments won't happen if everyone used their own site or something rather than email?
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tantek KartikPrabhu: it's more expensive to use your own site than some random *unverified* email
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tantek higher barrier = less nonsense!
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snarfed tantek: i'll happily decline that challenge. :P maybe not the best test subject, at least for me. i have no interest in discussing gamergate online
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Loqi snarfed: tantek left you a message 21 minutes ago: Here's a challenge re: support/want/like "native" comments on your blog/site from "anyone with an email address" http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-11-05/line/1415222606077
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tantek snarfed, no problem, and quite understandable.
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snarfed as a counterpoint, i'd argue that comments (whether native or otherwise) don't always have to be about Serious Dialogue. this is maybe one of my favorite posts with native comments. no meaningful discussion to be had, but i still very much appreciate the trivial "thank you!" comments: https://snarfed.org/sole-elliptical-need-lube-message
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tantek snarfed: strawman, never said comments have to always be about "Serious Dialogue"
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tantek point was more about vulnerability of unverified email based "native" comments to a coordinated creative writing concern-trolling / sock-puppeting attack
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aaronpk "nonsense" != not serious, right?
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snarfed tantek: understood
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tantek aaronpk - ah, thanks for pointing out where the disconnect occured. yes
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snarfed and sure, lots of good things have flaws, native comments included
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tantek snarfed: nonserious++, nonsense-- does that help? ;)
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snarfed sure
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snarfed and just to confirm, vouch is the only thing we've worked on that begins to address this problem, right? in other words, for this specific problem, wm + mf2 is no better than native, right?
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reedstrm tantek I see no technical issues w/ that set of comments. It's only a few hiundred, came in over a reasonable time frame. I took "deal with" to mean, handle the technical load. If you're talking about not wanting to host comments you don't agree with, well, ...
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tantek reedstrm: except that they're basically all fake
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tantek so yeah, if you don't care about fake comments, people creative writing in your comments with made-up identities, pretending to be talking factually while making stuff up, then yeah, no problem ;)
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snarfed (i'd actually interpreted the "Not Serious" criticism from a while back, not from "nonsense," but no matter, not important)
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tantek whether the objective is political (gamergate gang-sock-puppeting) or monetary (spamming) the method is the same, (semi-)automated, non-factual.
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tantek snarfed - perhaps mixed with the serious/nonserious conversation we had about "short" notes/tweets?
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reedstrm Right, so it's not a technical load issue, it's the social/quality discussion issue. There's only so far technical solutions can impact social issues. Adding a cost seems like a good solution, but seldom works. (captcha, anyone?)
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tantek reedstrm: hence /vouch
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aaronpk that's the brilliance of vouch
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reedstrm The only thing that's worked for us (publishing content) is good old-fashioned human-in-the-loop review.
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snarfed tantek: not sure. no matter
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tantek reedstrm: part of the point of /vouch is to avoid having to moderate so much noise in the first place.
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tantek there was a quote somewhere from a recent blog post about this that I think KevinMarks cited - if you have to moderate the trolling, the trolling has already succeeded.
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reedstrm Which we only do for the first publish from new accounts, so we verify/validate ... sort of a vouch.
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reedstrm Once there "work" didn't appear immediately, the spammers headed elsewhere, mostly. So it's not a huge cost for us.
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tantek reedstrm: many spammers first publish something plausible in a comment, then spam sometime *much* later
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tantek also it sounds like you're talking about a group/company blog where someone is paid to human moderate
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tantek I'm specifically talking about the indieweb use-case. one person, personal site, personal blog, self-moderation.
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tantek that's the case I care more about.
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tantek (since you said "not a huge cost for *us*" *emphasis* added)
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reedstrm Well, so far that level of gamesmanship hasn't made it here. It's a global shared resource educational content site, so yes, we do have staff, but we'd much rather be doing anything else than moderate content.
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tantek reedstrm: it's like they're picking very high readership targets first. hence Mozilla/Firefox. and online high-traffic publications, Kotaku etc.
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reedstrm Yes, but that's a matter of scale. You're suggesting that for a personal site, any cost at all is too much?
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tantek reedstrm: not suggesting, saying. If you were made to see the spam/abuse, the spam/abuse has already happened, even if it is only in your moderation UI.
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KartikPrabhu reedstrm: if your site is to act like your Twitter then there have been instances of this
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reedstrm I'll grant you that for abuse .
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tantek !tell KevinMarks_: what was that article you cited that said something like "if you have to moderate the trolling, the trolling has already succeeded." ?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek !tell KevinMarks what was that article you cited that said something like "if you have to moderate the trolling, the trolling has already succeeded." ?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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reedstrm KartikPrabhu: ?
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KartikPrabhu reedstrm: I mean, the indieweb idea is to have your own site act pretty much like your Twitter account does now. There have been many cases where the Twitter comments have been too much to handle
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reedstrm My personal experience doesn't really lend itself to the trolling/abuse side, since it's not comments/personal per se.
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KartikPrabhu so it is not a question of organisation vs individuals, except it is harder for individuals to manage/moderate it
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@Johannes_Ernst Own Your Site instead! #indieweb “@gigaom: Personal media publishing platform http://jux.com shutting down http://t.co/vF8MsLuo8l” (twitter.com/_/status/530118603186913280)
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aaronpk speaking of vouch, I think indiewebcat should reject un-vouched webmentions as a test for us here :)
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reedstrm Spam that never gets published for the world to see did not succeed, even if the person whose site it is does see it when moderating: the spammers goal is broader distribution. Abuse on the other hand ...
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk, i ignore non-vouch non-whitelist webmentions
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ben_thatmustbeme have since i added vouch
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aaronpk no way! awesome!
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aaronpk are you at least monitoring ones that fail?
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ben_thatmustbeme yeah, i still have them in the db
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ben_thatmustbeme i also publish my whitelist https://ben.thatmustbe.me/whitelist
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ben_thatmustbeme the greater majority of the mentions come in from brid.gy though so i haven't actually had it reject anything yet
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@joelgaines Should Doctors Create Culture of Health Literacy? http://http://blog.lifetimehealthdiary.com/doctors-need-create-culture-health-literacy/ ^jg #OwnYourData (twitter.com/_/status/530119950569324544)
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@LifeHealthDiary Should Doctors Create Culture of Health Literacy? http://http://blog.lifetimehealthdiary.com/doctors-need-create-culture-health-literacy/ ^jg #OwnYourData (twitter.com/_/status/530119951508832257)
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KartikPrabhu is anyone else getting a "What's Happening?" add tweet prompt on top of their Twitter stream
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mko I am
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KartikPrabhu cool! another UI element that Twitter liftes from Facebook...
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aaronpk i thought that was original twitter ui
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KartikPrabhu oh!
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aaronpk oh yeah hey they moved it!
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kylewm anildash had a good tweet about it this morning
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kylewm https://twitter.com/anildash/status/530070995965837312
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@anildash Oh sweet, @twitter just added a posting box to the top of the stream! It looks like this: https://twitter.com/anildash/status/530070995965837312/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/530070995965837312)
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aaronpk haha
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KartikPrabhu ha!
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KartikPrabhu like how Twitter sells it as making it "easier" to Tweet. The Post a Tweet button is about 5 pixels away anyway
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KartikPrabhu ok maybe 20
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@kevinmarks "@fmanjoo: @kevinmarks @qhardy right, it's part of the web" the web is so much more than your ad-infested mess. The #indieweb does better (twitter.com/_/status/530126419557224449)
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GWG Evening
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kylewm working tonight GWG?
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kylewm we are having an online HWC
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kylewm is why i ask
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