#indiewebcamp 2014-11-05

2014-11-05 UTC
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GWG
Life
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aaronpk
just noticed instagram's API now documents the scope values with no caveats. http://instagram.com/developer/authentication/
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aaronpk
snI wonder if this means apps can now comment as users?
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aaronpk
snarfed oops
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@w3cmemes
@elfpavlik we’ll do that once the #WebMention REC is rescinded.
(twitter.com/_/status/529849264512712705)
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snarfed
aaronpk: ooh interesting. trying not to get my hopes up…
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aaronpk
yeah, haven't tried anything yet but it looks different
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kylewm
what is a WebMention REC?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "WebMention REC" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=WebMention+REC
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aaronpk
I couldn't figure out what REC is
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kylewm
ha, that is the wrong stub!
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: being creative and owning your data are quite related see old post: https://kartikprabhu.com/article/redux##Using+the+right+tools
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KartikPrabhu
which of course shows your face in Likes ;)
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kylewm
KartikPrabhu++ good point!
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Loqi
KartikPrabhu has 77 karma
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: yeah. I don't care about CMSs (they get in the way) and write HTML files for articles myself. But everyone having the same thing Twitter, G+ etc... makes every one look/do the same things so no creativity there
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KevinMarks__
Well, the early blog tools let you write html in your posts; they forced you to really
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KevinMarks__
That's something Facebook g+ and twitter subtracted
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KartikPrabhu
KevinMarks_ yes but CMSs haven't evolved much with their UI comapred to G+ and others
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@LukasZielinski
@klaustrainer just wanted to add something to your post but I need to use webmention? :P
(twitter.com/_/status/529966812537323520)
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@KlausTrainer
@LukasZielinski Well, yes. In case you can't speak webmention: just send me a link to your reply, and I'll manually add it myself :)
(twitter.com/_/status/529969527879397377)
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@LukasZielinski
@klaustrainer ok, let me try webmention.io with my jekyll blog first, though. ;)
(twitter.com/_/status/529969684087848960)
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Loqi
Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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kylewm.com
edited /events/2014-11-05-homebrew-website-club (+91) "/* URLs */ added event URLs"
(view diff)
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GWG
I have to get on IWC Online
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GWG
Hello, Pfefferle.
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pfefferle
Hey GWG
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GWG
What is going on?
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Loqi
Welcome to news about the IndieWeb where recent notable articles about the IndieWeb are cited and linked to keep you up to date http://indiewebcamp.com/going_on
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GWG
Pfefferle, I have pushed a function to my fork of Semantic Linkbacks with a count function.
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pfefferle
GWG Yes, I saw it… fixed some intends and will push it later… thanks :)
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GWG
I was going to say that I was having trouble with it.
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GWG
The query should work according to the literature, but was being inconsistent in testing.
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pfefferle
GWG hmmm, I will have a look at it...
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GWG
Pfefferle I am still looking at more proposed changes.
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GWG
Sorry. I may be affecting you.
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GWG
Pfefferle I am reading through the Wordpress comment code for filters.
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@ShaneHudson
@PenmanRoss I have known/indieweb features built into my current site. I know @kevinmarks is using Known, as are many others :)
(twitter.com/_/status/530062298078273536)
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snarfed
woo, bridgy hit its 1000th user yesterday!
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snarfed
(stats on the http://brid.gy/ front page are ~1-2d old, as always)
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snarfed
blog post in the works
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aaronpk
congrats!
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snarfed
a couple nazel-gazing growth graphs:
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myfreeweb
I've logged into brid.gy with twitter yesterday... Am I the 1000th user? :)
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aaronpk
I want to see a graph of successful webmentions sent!
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ben_thatmustbeme
nice snarfed
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snarfed
aaronpk: on the todo list!
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snarfed
(*very incomplete, rough* blog post draft: https://snarfed.org/?p=11370 )
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snarfed
myfreeweb: heh, not quite. https://www.brid.gy/googleplus/101184744082016026460 was the 1000th
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snarfed
myfreeweb: regardless, glad you're using it!
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KartikPrabhu
snarfed: your draft post does not show!
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myfreeweb
not really *using* it yet, because I haven't built incoming webmention support for my engine
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myfreeweb
but will use it ~soon~
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snarfed
KartikPrabhu: ah right. the world will just have to wait then :P
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@myfreeweb
So, notes on my website should be automatically posted on https://App.net/ and Twitter. Also, webmentions sh… https://unrelenting.technology/notes/2014-11-05-19-56-44
(twitter.com/_/status/530086357670965248)
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kylewm
anybody else coming to HWC tonight? danlyke, benwerd, erinjo, j12t? http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-11-05-homebrew-website-club
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tantek
kylewm: it looks like just you and me for HWC tonight.
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tantek
Chicago canceled right?
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kylewm
they did, yep
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tantek
Portland?
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aaronpk
I forgot to post the event yesterday but I can host tonight
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aaronpk
heh I need some help with my repost markup
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j12t
Not me, I'm doubly booked already.
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tantek
kylewm, since it's just the two of us should we do a remote/virtual hack night instead?
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aaronpk
actually that's not a bad idea for me too
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kylewm
tantek: great suggestion, that would be great
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kylewm
I was just going to say I'd be happy to come up but didn't have much to talk about :)
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aaronpk
count me in for remote participation as well
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aaronpk
I have something to show as well. maybe even with a live demo :)
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danlyke
kylewm gonna miss HWC tonight, got prep work for a remodeling disaster in progress to do...
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tantek
kylewm - ok let's update the various event posts and such
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reedstrm
Hmm, that's 8:30-9:30CST, which puts me on the mat, teaching Aikido. Tues or Thurs that's a good time, but not Mon, Wed.
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kylewm
you are in TX right reedstrm?
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reedstrm
yup, Houston.
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kylewm
tantek: ok if I just say "join us in the irc channel for details"?
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kylewm
and then we can figure out talky or hangouts or whateever later
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tantek
yes absolutely
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reedstrm
bear: that is not a post - it's a ... dissertation? mini-autobiography? Discursive personal mediation on the history of computing and personal interactions? And yes .. excellent!
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bear
reedstrm - I was avoiding the more accurate description so as not to scare any one off - I want everyone to read it and absorb it
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bear
because the networks without networks idea fits into indieweb oh so perfectly IMO
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reedstrm
It is in fact excellent - don't let me scare anyone either!
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tantek
bear, reedstrm hmm - I had a different reaction: looks like just some old-person reminiscing that has nothing to do with how people use computers today. Meh. (and I'm old enough to get all the references)
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j12t
BTW, Indie Box / UBOS meetup tomorrow in Mountain View.
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reedstrm
tantek: I'm the same .. vintage? but there's nuggets of insight in there, many tagged by others. What's the comment engine being used? Is that something open source?
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tantek
j12t - feel free to post it on /events !
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tantek
reedstrm: I didn't find any new nuggets of insight. Just the same ol' "disconnect", "unplug", "remember when", "constraints were good", "simpler was good" etc.
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tantek
maybe I've just seen too many of these cycles of reminiscing
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tantek
again, patterns
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reedstrm
The take on what a Jobs commencement speech should really have been like? Hilarious/serious.
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tantek
reedstrm: ok I'll re-read that section :)
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reedstrm
Yes there's lots of that - but don't skim too lightly. Could use a good copyedit, except it's not a "I want to convince you" post, it's a "my friend died and I'm thinking about his effect on my life and my world" sort of thing, so I'll cut him the editorial slack.
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reedstrm
Also, to my reading, the punchline is the _first_ paragraph of the 10/10 entry, above the teddy bear. "By my lights, people very often share technologies with each other when they talk. Strategies. Ideas for living our lives."
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aaronpk
kylewm: are you updating the wiki page to note the IRC location for tonight?
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kylewm
aaronpk: I am
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upon2020.com
edited /Events (+774) "added Indie Box meetup tomorrow"
(view diff)
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aaronpk
I will wait to rsvp until then
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aaronparecki.com
edited /events/2014-11-05-homebrew-website-club (-149) "collapse sf/portland into "online" for this week"
(view diff)
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tantek
I'm going to challenge any/all of you who support/want/like the idea of "native" comments that you self-host on your site from "anyone with an email address" to try posting a sensible critique of GamerGate, and see if you can deal with the coordinated creative writing concern-trolling / sock-puppeting attack that results. E.g. comments section on: https://openstandard.mozilla.org/yes-gamergate-is-a-ed-tech-issue/
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tantek
!tell benwerd, snarfed Here's a challenge re: support/want/like "native" comments on your blog/site from "anyone with an email address" http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-11-05/line/1415222606077
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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kylewm
I LOVE INDIEWEBCAT
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KartikPrabhu1
tantek: do you think such non-sense comments won't happen if everyone used their own site or something rather than email?
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: it's more expensive to use your own site than some random *unverified* email
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tantek
higher barrier = less nonsense!
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snarfed
tantek: i'll happily decline that challenge. :P maybe not the best test subject, at least for me. i have no interest in discussing gamergate online
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Loqi
snarfed: tantek left you a message 21 minutes ago: Here's a challenge re: support/want/like "native" comments on your blog/site from "anyone with an email address" http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-11-05/line/1415222606077
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tantek
snarfed, no problem, and quite understandable.
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snarfed
as a counterpoint, i'd argue that comments (whether native or otherwise) don't always have to be about Serious Dialogue. this is maybe one of my favorite posts with native comments. no meaningful discussion to be had, but i still very much appreciate the trivial "thank you!" comments: https://snarfed.org/sole-elliptical-need-lube-message
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tantek
snarfed: strawman, never said comments have to always be about "Serious Dialogue"
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tantek
point was more about vulnerability of unverified email based "native" comments to a coordinated creative writing concern-trolling / sock-puppeting attack
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aaronpk
"nonsense" != not serious, right?
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snarfed
tantek: understood
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tantek
aaronpk - ah, thanks for pointing out where the disconnect occured. yes
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snarfed
and sure, lots of good things have flaws, native comments included
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tantek
snarfed: nonserious++, nonsense-- does that help? ;)
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snarfed
and just to confirm, vouch is the only thing we've worked on that begins to address this problem, right? in other words, for this specific problem, wm + mf2 is no better than native, right?
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reedstrm
tantek I see no technical issues w/ that set of comments. It's only a few hiundred, came in over a reasonable time frame. I took "deal with" to mean, handle the technical load. If you're talking about not wanting to host comments you don't agree with, well, ...
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tantek
reedstrm: except that they're basically all fake
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tantek
so yeah, if you don't care about fake comments, people creative writing in your comments with made-up identities, pretending to be talking factually while making stuff up, then yeah, no problem ;)
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snarfed
(i'd actually interpreted the "Not Serious" criticism from a while back, not from "nonsense," but no matter, not important)
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tantek
whether the objective is political (gamergate gang-sock-puppeting) or monetary (spamming) the method is the same, (semi-)automated, non-factual.
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tantek
snarfed - perhaps mixed with the serious/nonserious conversation we had about "short" notes/tweets?
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reedstrm
Right, so it's not a technical load issue, it's the social/quality discussion issue. There's only so far technical solutions can impact social issues. Adding a cost seems like a good solution, but seldom works. (captcha, anyone?)
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tantek
reedstrm: hence /vouch
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aaronpk
that's the brilliance of vouch
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reedstrm
The only thing that's worked for us (publishing content) is good old-fashioned human-in-the-loop review.
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snarfed
tantek: not sure. no matter
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tantek
reedstrm: part of the point of /vouch is to avoid having to moderate so much noise in the first place.
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tantek
there was a quote somewhere from a recent blog post about this that I think KevinMarks cited - if you have to moderate the trolling, the trolling has already succeeded.
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reedstrm
Which we only do for the first publish from new accounts, so we verify/validate ... sort of a vouch.
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reedstrm
Once there "work" didn't appear immediately, the spammers headed elsewhere, mostly. So it's not a huge cost for us.
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tantek
reedstrm: many spammers first publish something plausible in a comment, then spam sometime *much* later
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tantek
also it sounds like you're talking about a group/company blog where someone is paid to human moderate
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tantek
I'm specifically talking about the indieweb use-case. one person, personal site, personal blog, self-moderation.
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tantek
that's the case I care more about.
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tantek
(since you said "not a huge cost for *us*" *emphasis* added)
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reedstrm
Well, so far that level of gamesmanship hasn't made it here. It's a global shared resource educational content site, so yes, we do have staff, but we'd much rather be doing anything else than moderate content.
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tantek
reedstrm: it's like they're picking very high readership targets first. hence Mozilla/Firefox. and online high-traffic publications, Kotaku etc.
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reedstrm
Yes, but that's a matter of scale. You're suggesting that for a personal site, any cost at all is too much?
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tantek
reedstrm: not suggesting, saying. If you were made to see the spam/abuse, the spam/abuse has already happened, even if it is only in your moderation UI.
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KartikPrabhu
reedstrm: if your site is to act like your Twitter then there have been instances of this
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reedstrm
I'll grant you that for abuse .
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tantek
!tell KevinMarks_: what was that article you cited that said something like "if you have to moderate the trolling, the trolling has already succeeded." ?
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek
!tell KevinMarks what was that article you cited that said something like "if you have to moderate the trolling, the trolling has already succeeded." ?
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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reedstrm
KartikPrabhu: ?
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KartikPrabhu
reedstrm: I mean, the indieweb idea is to have your own site act pretty much like your Twitter account does now. There have been many cases where the Twitter comments have been too much to handle
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reedstrm
My personal experience doesn't really lend itself to the trolling/abuse side, since it's not comments/personal per se.
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KartikPrabhu
so it is not a question of organisation vs individuals, except it is harder for individuals to manage/moderate it
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@Johannes_Ernst
Own Your Site instead! #indieweb “@gigaom: Personal media publishing platform http://jux.com shutting down http://t.co/vF8MsLuo8l”
(twitter.com/_/status/530118603186913280)
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aaronpk
speaking of vouch, I think indiewebcat should reject un-vouched webmentions as a test for us here :)
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reedstrm
Spam that never gets published for the world to see did not succeed, even if the person whose site it is does see it when moderating: the spammers goal is broader distribution. Abuse on the other hand ...
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ben_thatmustbeme
aaronpk, i ignore non-vouch non-whitelist webmentions
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ben_thatmustbeme
have since i added vouch
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aaronpk
no way! awesome!
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aaronpk
are you at least monitoring ones that fail?
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ben_thatmustbeme
yeah, i still have them in the db
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ben_thatmustbeme
the greater majority of the mentions come in from brid.gy though so i haven't actually had it reject anything yet
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KartikPrabhu
is anyone else getting a "What's Happening?" add tweet prompt on top of their Twitter stream
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mko
I am
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KartikPrabhu
cool! another UI element that Twitter liftes from Facebook...
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aaronpk
i thought that was original twitter ui
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aaronpk
oh yeah hey they moved it!
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kylewm
anildash had a good tweet about it this morning
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@anildash
Oh sweet, @twitter just added a posting box to the top of the stream! It looks like this: https://twitter.com/anildash/status/530070995965837312/photo/1
(twitter.com/_/status/530070995965837312)
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KartikPrabhu
like how Twitter sells it as making it "easier" to Tweet. The Post a Tweet button is about 5 pixels away anyway
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KartikPrabhu
ok maybe 20
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@kevinmarks
"@fmanjoo: @kevinmarks @qhardy right, it's part of the web" the web is so much more than your ad-infested mess. The #indieweb does better
(twitter.com/_/status/530126419557224449)
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GWG
Evening
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kylewm
working tonight GWG?
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kylewm
we are having an online HWC
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kylewm
is why i ask
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