#indiewebcamp 2014-11-10

2014-11-10 UTC
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fiatjaf this is probably not the channel, but if I wanted a private anonymous-pseudonymous forum or forum-like application for a group to share information and chat about a topic, where should I look?
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GWG IRC is pretty good for that
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fiatjaf GWG: IRC is for real-time chat, and it is not anonymous
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KartikPrabhu wonders if all of this "anonymous identity" is within the realm of indieweb?
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GWG KartikPrabhu: It isn't now. I suppose it could be
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GWG IT may be a different community.
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KartikPrabhu usually the effect of such discussions is to lead into DNS and all that stuff
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KartikPrabhu and over-throwing the current web-system and what not
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GWG Overthrow?
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KartikPrabhu yeah... re-visit the previous discussions in the logs if you wish
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GWG Aren't we a community that suggests using a website as your identity?
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GWG If your website forms your identity then you can have an anonymous identity by whois privacy and still participate in Indieweb
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KartikPrabhu GWG: not really. using SSL certs etc requires you to give your real identity to the cert vendors.
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KartikPrabhu depends on how much anonymity you want, and this is the part i think takes it far away from what the indieweb is trying to do into "overthrow the system" territory
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bret fiatjaf: forum software has worked for that scenario for a really long time actually although running it requires sysadmin skills. Set up any forum software you want, make sure everything live behind an account login, and enforce community guidelines regarding identity
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bret fiatjaf: http://punbb.informer.com is a choice I have used before. Pretty old school but works well. http://www.discourse.org is a more modern forum.
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kylewm catching up on the feed/hub conversation from earlier, does anybody know how http://stream.withknown.com/ works?
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kylewm wait, is it just a separate instance of Known with two authors...i thought at first it was aggregating content from elsewhere
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@dangillmor Not sure why, but @indiewebcamp theme/plugins in Wordpress don't seem to be giving me 2-way comments...was working before. (twitter.com/_/status/531668946714234880)
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GWG This is a job for...The WORDPRESS ACTION COMMITTEE
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GWG Or OUTREACH.
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GWG Whatever tantek called it
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GWG looks up page
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GWG Shoot. No one added their name.
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@voxpelli @LukasZielinski @KlausTrainer Try my https://webmention.herokuapp.com/ if you can’t get that one to work – used by my own Jekyll-blog :) (twitter.com/_/status/531720582845714432)
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@whitewildboar RT @kartik_prabhu: The #indieweb or: how I learnt to stop worrying and love the #blog. Comes about a year since I went indie (http://t.co/F… (twitter.com/_/status/531752491411849216)
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@thierrymarianne 7 spots left for Learning @withknown at @numaparis this evening via @kirilind http://www.meetup.com/OuiShareLabs/events/216203122/ cc: @erinjo @benwerd #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/531780171423305728)
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GWG Good morning
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@joelgaines RT @healthcaretoo: #HIPAA as an excuse to withhold patient records http://www.nytimes.com ^jg always forgetting portability #OwnYourData (twitter.com/_/status/531845644412289024)
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mko tantek: Congrats on the launch of Firefox Developer Edition. I don't know if you had any direct involvement, but it looks like a really useful tool.
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mko The download is taking forever, but I'm excited to try it out.
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tantek No direct involvement no - I suppose I should check it out :)
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@joelgaines Doctors are the front line for health literacy http://blog.lifetimehealthdiary.com/doctors-need-create-culture-health-literacy/ #Health #OwnYourData (twitter.com/_/status/531848879453790209)
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@LifeHealthDiary Doctors are the front line for health literacy http://blog.lifetimehealthdiary.com/doctors-need-create-culture-health-literacy/ #Health #OwnYourData (twitter.com/_/status/531848879768350720)
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tantek Good morning GWG (as tantek catches up on logs)
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tantek What is URL design?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "URL design" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=URL+design
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tantek huh
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bret cool https://www.npmjs.org/package/w3cjs I think i'll write some tests to check for html error creep
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tantek.com created /URL_design (+1392) "stub with basics about date, slug" (view diff)
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mko bret: Nice find. I wonder how well it works.
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tantek.com edited /design (+18) "URL design is essentially part of the IA of a site" (view diff)
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kylewm re URL design, https://twitter.com/ftrain/status/531847481877753856
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@ftrain oh god i just realized i get like maybe 60% of my news from urls (twitter.com/_/status/531847481877753856)
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tantek.com edited /URL_design (+1660) "Add FAQ about time, US date order, am/pm" (view diff)
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tantek and that's about all I can get out of / do about the IRC chat yesterday with "TheNewYorker"
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tantek mko, more for your review: http://indiewebcamp.com/URL_design
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tantek since I know you care about this kind of thing, design that is, of all kinds :)
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mko Indeed. Thanks. I'll take a quick peek at it before I go grab coffee.
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mko LGTM.
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tantek thanks
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tantek GWG, yes re: WordPress outreach to @dangillmor!
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tantek !tell snarfed perhaps drop @dangillmor a reply to see what's up? https://twitter.com/dangillmor/status/531668946714234880
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek GWG, I mean you should too - more attention the better
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tantek is roughly caught up on logs. time for coffee.
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@joelgaines ^jg Patient Privacy disrupts a lot of current business models. Don't you agree? #OwnYourData (twitter.com/_/status/531857759403540480)
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@LifeHealthDiary ^jg Patient Privacy disrupts a lot of current business models. Don't you agree? #OwnYourData (twitter.com/_/status/531857761890754560)
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jonnybarnes !tell barnabywalters whilst my site can send your site webmention replies that show up, your site isn't finding the author info from my post, however shrewdness does: https://shrewdness.waterpigs.co.uk/test/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fjonnybarnes.uk%2Fnotes%2F41
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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KartikPrabhu notes usage of "whilst" !
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mowens.com edited /URL_design (+1555) "/* How -- human readable and adds content type and ordinal sections */" (view diff)
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mko tantek: Ended up having a few additions to the explanations (specifically regarding huamn readability and adding "optional" recommendations like content type and ordinals.
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mko s/huamn/human
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Loqi mko meant to say: tantek: Ended up having a few additions to the explanations (specifically regarding human readability and adding "optional" recommendations like content type and ordinals.
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@kevinmarks @adamgurri openid means you can use indieauth and so your #indieweb site (twitter.com/_/status/531861846924349441)
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tantek mko - looks good, except for putting type first. aaronpk and others are now struggling with that design "error"
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@adamgurri RT @kevinmarks: @adamgurri openid means you can use indieauth and so your #indieweb site (twitter.com/_/status/531862064399409152)
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mko It can go anywhere. I'm curious as to why they're experiencing it as an "error" -- is this documented somewhere?
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mko It's more or less another type of slug. I'm happy to put it at the end of the date slug in the example.
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tantek mko - yeah it was a big IRC conversation last week I think
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mko Hm. Okay.
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tantek it has to do with storage, URL policies (per year) etc.
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tantek so yeah, "type" first is an error
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tantek here's a short reason: dates are a known thing, types are still squishy and growing
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tantek better to put the more known (stable) thing first in your hierarchy
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mko Not sure if I'd agreed with it being an "error." It sounds more like it's a "potential pitfall"
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mko That I don't disagree with.
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tantek mko - more like "eventual pitfall"
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tantek adding a brief FAQ
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mko Re: "types being growing" and "more known (stable) thing first"
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tantek yup - putting that in the faq
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tantek !tell aaronpk where was that IRC conversation about the problems you had with type-first URL structure and switching to /date first ?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek.com edited /URL_design (+1024) "content type should not go first, change example and add FAQ" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /URL_design (+8) "/* Ordinal */ use "N" rather than "O" for "nth" and since O is easily confused for 0" (view diff)
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@thierrymarianne Come and see what @withknown is all about at @numaparis ! #identity (We also have #cookies) cc: @kirilind #indieweb with @roussel_tristan (twitter.com/_/status/531864389356642306)
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tantek thanks mko. a few more updates.
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mko Saw it. Looks good. :-)
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tantek :)
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tantek this is so good: http://manas.tungare.name/blog/url-design-sins-16-things-that-dont-belong-in-urls/
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aaronpk oh interesting: "Internal database IDs."
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Loqi aaronpk: tantek left you a message 14 minutes ago: where was that IRC conversation about the problems you had with type-first URL structure and switching to /date first ?
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mko Agreed. Big fan of that. #12 is one of my biggest annoyances for Medium's URLs. Right now, I have to delete the @ symbol every time I copy a URL to use on my site because it breaks my tweet parser right now.
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mko I need to rewrite my tweet parser to remove the @-in-url context, but I've not had time.
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tommorris tantek: the only thing I'd add is the string "api"
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tantek.com edited /URL_design (+621) "add articles and what to avoid" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk - yup - had already covered "omit … database IDs"
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aaronpk that's a great list
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reedstrm I keep getting pushback during design meetings that "nobody reads URLs anymore. No one cares"
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tantek reedstrm: pushback to that with "you obviously don't maintain your own website and content then" :P
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reedstrm Good to see I'm not the only one.
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tantek reedstrm: or just cite http://indiewebcamp.com/URL_design :D
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reedstrm Well, I can _now_. :-)
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mko Most of our marketing team would disagree with those people giving pushback.
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tantek apologies for the delay ;)
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tantek I would disagree with most marketing people.
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tantek If they're so good at marketing, where's their personal website showing that they are?
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reedstrm tantek: I think mko was saying their marketing people ant good looking urls ...
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reedstrm s/ ant/ want/
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Loqi reedstrm meant to say: tantek: I think mko was saying their marketing people want good looking urls ...
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tantek well that's good at least!
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tantek aaronpk - do you remember when in IRC you were talking about changing your URL structure to date-primary?
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tantek it was pretty recent ...
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aaronpk yeah only a few days ago...
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mko Yeah. They specifically want human readable URLs because there's growing anecdotal evidence that URL design matters to search engines.
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reedstrm good looking isn't always good, but a goods url is usually pretty good looking ...
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aaronpk hm if I remember a couple words I can grep my logs
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reedstrm Ah, the SEO card! excellent.
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tantek lol
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@IndieHosters RT @bear: "This is my favorite kind of UX: none at all." - congrats for reaching a 1000 users - https://snarfed.org/2014-11-06_happy-1000th-bridgy #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/531868343297667073)
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aaronpk tantek: heh, searched for "regret"
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aaronpk http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-10-30#t1414695058382
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tantek.com edited /URL_design (-33) "aaronpk cited" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com created /url-design (+23) "create redirect so the page has a nicer URL" (view diff)
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tantek heh
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aaronpk oh dammit
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tantek.com edited /url-design (+0) "d" (view diff)
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aaronpk you beat me to it
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michielbdejong tantek: hi! Pierre-O and I are finally setting up the non-profit hosting provider I might have told you about: https://indiehosters.net/
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tantek neat!
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michielbdejong aiming to offer one-click indieweb hosting
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tantek very cool
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michielbdejong thanks! we're excited about it, yes :)
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@roussel_tristan RT @thierrymarianne: Come and see what @withknown is all about at @numaparis ! #identity (We also have #cookies) cc: @kirilind #indieweb wi… (twitter.com/_/status/531870096348561408)
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bear aaronpk - if you use apache or nginx you could create a plugin that does the rewrites according to a pattern and serve 302's
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michielbdejong working full-time on it now in Lisbon, Portugal
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mko Neat.
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aaronpk bear it's not just patterns I have to redirect, tho I already did that once for a previous URL pattern change
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tantek what is an IndieHoster?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "IndieHoster" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=IndieHoster
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tantek michielbdejong: ^^^ go for it
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aaronpk but now because I have things like replies/1 and notes/1, they are going to have to be re-indexed to replies/1 and notes/2
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michielbdejong it's an independent hosting provider, so one person
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bear in nginx you could also create perl or lua code to churn thru whatever code is needed
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michielbdejong ah great! :)
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tantek never got around to distinguishing replies and notes by explicit type
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aaronpk er, that did not come out right
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aaronpk just "1" and "2" cause i'm gonna drop the type prefix
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aaronpk you get the idea
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aaronpk brb coffee
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tantek my reasoning was that both an article and a note could be a reply, so I made "replyness" an aspect (markup) of the post rather than a kind
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michielbdejong once we're accepting customers, we'll add ourselves to http://indiewebcamp.com/hosting
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tantek definiteliy note that in the wiki page!
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michielbdejong we aim to offer wordpress+indieweb-plugins and Known as our first two plugins
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kylewm tantek: I regret distinguishing reply from note for that very reason, so good on you
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michielbdejong s/plugins/products
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Loqi michielbdejong meant to say: we aim to offer wordpress+indieweb-products and Known as our first two products
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tantek kylewm: it was laziness before it was deliberate ;)
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mko I actually prefer having a specific "reply" type that is separate from my articles and notes for the same reason that Twitter offers the "Tweets" and "Tweets + Replies" as separate feeds on individuals' profiles.
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mko In my mind, anything can *be* a reply, but I have a specific note-like content type that is only used for replying to people.
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@joelgaines "Healthcare industry, listen up: You've got a consumer distrust issue on your hands. " http://www.healthcareitnews.com/news/trust-issues-over-health-privacy-persist #OwnYourData (twitter.com/_/status/531871422776614913)
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@LifeHealthDiary "Healthcare industry, listen up: You've got a consumer distrust issue on your hands. " http://www.healthcareitnews.com/news/trust-issues-over-health-privacy-persist #OwnYourData (twitter.com/_/status/531871422843740160)
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mko That way people can look at all of my non-reply content (since large quantities of reply content can be irrelevant to third-parties).
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mko s/look at all of my/look specifically at my
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Loqi mko meant to say: That way people can look specifically at my non-reply content (since large quantities of reply content can be irrelevant to third-parties).
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reedstrm is the set of hashtags that Loqi tracks documented anywhere?
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kylewm reedstrm: I don't think so, but I think it is {indieweb, webmention, ownyourdata, indieauth} possible plus {micropub}
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reedstrm ownyourdata just popped up, so got me wondering ...
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kylewm question, anyone have strong feelings about whether to POSSE-to-twitter replies from one indieweb site to another?
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kylewm I mostly find them redundant, but I suppose it could help third party discovery
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reedstrm kylewm: seems a personal policy/decision to me: do you want to keep your audience-on-twitter involved, or have you/we bootstrapped enough of a indienet to not need it?
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tantek kylewm: I think it's especially useful if the original is also POSSE'd to twitter http://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#POSSE_Replies_to_Twitter
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reedstrm marvels at the completeness of the indiewebcamp wiki
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tantek and if the original is *not* on Twitter, POSSEing your reply to Twitter is still useful if your reply is "self-contained" enough to be relevant to your Twitter readers
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kylewm ok fair enough. I do get a special joy out of site-to-site replies that never hit twitter tho :)
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tantek kylewm: totally underestood. hence definitely a judgment call / personal pref in that case
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tantek reedstrm: the only way I found to work through all my thoughts on replacing my posting to Twitter with posting to my own site was to thoroughly document each case I had to solve, and I figured I might as well do so using the IndieWebCamp wiki
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reedstrm kylewm: yup, signs of incipient independence!
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tantek a lot of the http://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter grew out of my real world experiences posting to my own site instead of Twitter from 2010-01-01 on.
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reedstrm Yeah, it shows the hallmarks of a standard designed from real-world experience, rather than what-might-be-useful speculation.
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tantek reedstrm: unfortunately I had to walk a path of many years of what-might-be-useful speculation to get to this point.
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aaronpk mko: that is the reason I have a separate reply type too, so that people don't see my replies by default. although now I just want to do that by showing filtered feeds rather than having it be an explicit different post type
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tantek (and having that speculation be 95%+ useless)
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mko tantek: It's funny that we're talking about URL Design in #indieweb today. I'm literally about to walk into a URL design discussion for our current redesign. :-)
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mko tantek++
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Loqi tantek has 116 karma
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reedstrm oh, no doubt: that's research. Just glad to see the painfully won fruits out there for us all to use.
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aaronpk also I am happy to say I did not create a separate "photo" type/feed, but rather I can attach a photo to notes or replies or any other post
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tantek reedstrm: not research, but flawed methodology unfortunately. I learned from many communities of what-might-be-useful speculation (e.g. standards communities) and it took a long time to question and unlearn that :/
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reedstrm What I hate to see are standards or 'best practices' that are just the initial speculation, w/o the hard won experience. Common refrain from developers "has anyone ever actually implemented this? It's impossible!"
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mko aaronpk: I have both standalone photo type and the ability to attach photos to any other post.
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tantek reedstrm: yes it's endemic
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tantek mko - I think that makes sense to have both
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tantek.com edited /Twitter (+453) "/* POSSE Replies to Twitter */ note about joy about indie-to-indie replies not hitting Twitter. sub-sub-heads" (view diff)
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mko photo content type ~= flickr upload (in my world)
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aaronpk I do plan to have a photo post type eventually, but it's gonna be for large quantities of photos like my flickr account
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aaronpk mko: yeah exactly
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reedstrm aaronpk: are attached photos going to be polymporphically accessible as their own thing as well? 'cause then you an bootstrap up to "large quantities"
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aaronpk basically I want to replicate flickr
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aaronpk so much of the structure of thing there is exactly how I want to organize photos
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tantek so much goodness to add to the /photo page, like in a == Why == section etc.!
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tantek what is a photo?
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Loqi http://indiewebcamp.com/photo
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tantek huh - why no dfn Loqi?
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aaronpk because of the "p-summary" in the body text. one sec.
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aaronparecki.com edited /photo (+29) "add explicit p-summary" (view diff)
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aaronpk what is a photo?
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Loqi A photo is a post whose primary content is a photograph or other image, with an optional caption http://indiewebcamp.com/photo
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aaronpk the problem with all this fun discussion on monday morning is it makes me want to stop everything else and go build stuff on my site
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@TheRealDod This Sunday there's an online #IndieWebCamp https://indiewebcamp.com/2014/Online and I'm "going" https://zzzen.com/hiddenid/?p=74 Join us. (twitter.com/_/status/531883415155396609)
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tantek.com edited /photo (+0) "why before how" (view diff)
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thedod hi
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reedstrm hi thedod!
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thedod Sorry. Back. Had some thought about reviving IndieAuth OpenID support https://zzzen.com/hiddenid/?p=74#comment-23
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aaronpk thedod: IndieWebCamp is not "a community of server admins"
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thedod maybe wrong wording
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aaronpk i mean there certainly are some server admins here
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thedod I mean I'm here as someone with a domain
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thedod so maybe I have a blog there,
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thedod maybe I have https://zzzen.com/420 :)
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thedod it's a service I provide. It's a personal thing. but I'm a provider
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thedod it like there are 3 circles (and some people belong to more than one):
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thedod most are at the shopping mall
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thedod some have lemon juice stands or a used record shop
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thedod but they're still ok with the authorities (have certificates)
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thedod then there are Tor users (maybe the same person also has facebook or an indieweb site)
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thedod they're anonymous, so they're *only* users. no other credentials
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thedod so they are like the people the authotorities frown upon: illegal immigrants, runaway kids, but they're part of the society
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thedod HiddenID tries to integrate those "dubious" anonymous users into "legit society"
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thedod so in that respect, indiewebcamp people can "provide services" to "tor users"
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thedod aaronpk, any idea what terms to use about this user/provider relation?
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thedod or did I get the pitch all wrong?
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aaronpk I don't know, this doesn't seem very relevant to what I'm working on personally so I'm not gonna have much to say about it
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reedstrm which pitch? indiewebcamp? It does sound like you're a little off the mark. The idea here is "own your own data"
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aaronpk I'm focused on building my own site and building things for people who have a domain name
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aaronpk reedstrm: and own your identity
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reedstrm So at a philisophical level, own your own voice. Right.
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reedstrm Sometimes, you need to speak anonymously, (c.f. can't be bothered to find the cites right now) but it's not the focus of this.
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thedod What about the voiceless? Chinese dissidents? Abused wives? Perhaps there's a way they could comment on your blog (if relevant).
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thedod Owning your data is also owning who gets to comment on it
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aaronpk thedod: if that is a priority for you, then by all means work on solutions to it
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reedstrm see discussion re /vouch :-) mostly the concern recently has been avoiding providing the trolls a platform.
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reedstrm thedod: this is an interesting balance to that, though.
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thedod HiddenID is an attempt
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thedod thank, reedstrm
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thedod At the moment, the main focus is on wordpress, because that can be an easy way to get many "services" (blogs), so I already have a pitch why HiddenID auth is better than Wordpress email auth:
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thedod if bob comments on alice's blog, is identified by email, and gets moderated,
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thedod eve, who knows bob's email address, can impersonate bob
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thedod Can't happen with HiddenID
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thedod now it's not like maintaining comments is a bed of roses with or without this,
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reedstrm I like to keep the distinction between authentication,authorization and identification.
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thedod authentication is what I call "accountability" (I'm the same one who was here yesterday)
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thedod identification is a tricky one. e.g. sulman rushdie vs facebook
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thedod or maybe we don't mean the same things by authentication and identification.
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reedstrm thedod: hosting of indieweb is a thing - it's not all about roll-your-own server. See known. So, you're talking providing hosting, with special consideration to providing it in a way that is friendly to those who need to hide their 'real world' identity. And hopefully, baking it into the set of indieweb protocols so by default, all the 'indie' sites are accountable friendly.
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thedod not providing hosting at all
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thedod I was talking about leaving comments and such
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thedod wikis
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thedod stuff you let people "from the street" do today if they did IndieAuth
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thedod (perhaps moderated)
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reedstrm thedod: I think we do: anonymous is "could be anybody", accountable/authenticated is "the same thedod as last week", identified is "thedod who lives at 1000 Main St., Sometown, somewhere"
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thedod there are slides I did about the dangers of "identification" http://is.gd/savethetrolls
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thedod but tl;dr
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thedod if there's a blog for cancer patients
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reedstrm Well, not you personally providing the hosting, but someone somewhere provides the service, so you're here to make sure the protocols/processes support that case.
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thedod knowing it's "the dod who lives at so and so" is a breach of medical confidentiality laws
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reedstrm Ouch, going for the controversial title, eh?
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thedod :)
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thedod reedstrm, not sure I uderstood what you said about protocols/processes (like who's "you"? user? blogger? isp?)
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reedstrm I think we (the massive collective we) are smart enough to come up with ways to support the legit anonymous w/o having to allow the trolls free reign. Reviewing vouch w/ that in mind would be useful.
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reedstrm you as in 'thedod'
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reedstrm what is vouch
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Loqi The Vouch protocol is an anti-spam extension to Webmention. Webmention with Vouch depends on understanding Webmention http://indiewebcamp.com/Vouch
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thedod I'll have a look at vouch
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reedstrm what is anonymous
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "anonymous" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=anonymous
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thedod ok. so vouch is in the realm of webmentions
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thedod BTW, how do we do webmentions with .onion involved?
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reedstrm thedod: I see this group (this chat/indiewebcamp) as the proving ground/skunkworks for developing the nextgen protocols and tech (and reviving existing neglected ones!) to free the web from dependence on the social media silos. The participatory web.
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tantek thedod could you provide links to your definitions of authentication / accountability / identification as it sounds like you have very specific meanings to explain (better to explain them on a longer page on your own website than dump in IRC)
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GWG has returned
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reedstrm thedod: sounds like an interesting topic for the virtual camp Sunday. :-) The intersection of "this" and the indieweb.
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thedod The only thing that comes to mind is the slides at http://is.gd/savethetrolls (it's not long),
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thedod but let me look...
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tantek I think this is quite flawed: http://swinger.thedod.iriscouch.com/#/preso/trollz/display/3 troll != need for anonymity. none of those examples are trolls iMO
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tantek thedod - yes, I think you need permalinks for each term on its own
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tantek asking someone to page through a preso is not really reasonable
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aaronpk until someone shows up here with their own .onion personal website I suspect there won't be much interest in getting webmentions to work with it
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thedod Here. A bit outdated. http://mynameisme.org/thedod/
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thedod here I am
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thedod here *we* are
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thedod the HideenID "potential market"
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tantek thedod - why not thedod.mynameisme.org ?
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tantek see /subdomain
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thedod mynameis.me was a project
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thedod doctorow is also there and he didn't complain :)
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tantek who is saying "having more than one identity is called trolling" ?!? citation needed
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tantek thedod see /subdomain for why users should have subdomains not paths on such sites.
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thedod I agree, but it's not my site. they just asked for a post
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aaronpk oh is that a post on the site, not a profile?
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herbsmn if anyone ever hears of someone using a .onion to host an indieweb site, please let me know!
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Loqi herbsmn: bret left you a message on 7/28 at 5:27pm: Here is that tumbler theme that was made at IWC2014: http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/Demos#Paul_and_Darrin
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tantek thedod - ok, then I still don't understand how those are links to your definitions
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tantek strongly disagreed with this point on this slide http://swinger.thedod.iriscouch.com/#/preso/trollz/display/10 ' "Trolling" is a basic human right '
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thedod tantek, I think it's a basic semantic problem here
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tantek thedod - I think there's lots of problems with the case you're trying to make here
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reedstrm thedod: I can see such a presentation a year ago, but today, post certain events, the word trolling is no longer useful.
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tantek thedod - nope - look up any popular definition of troll
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herbsmn loqi: thanks for remembering! you are cool!
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tantek thedod e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29
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thedod I didn't say *you* were wrong. I said there was a problem :)
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tantek "a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people,[1] by posting inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[4]"
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aaronpk thedod: I see what you're getting at, but I don't think "troll" is the right word to use. maybe if you used a different word, the point you're trying to make would come across better.
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tantek thedod - if there's such a fundamental problem with the words you're using to try to support your proposals / projects / definitions, then it becomes difficult to discuss them
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GWG Tantek, being antisocial and annoying is a human right.
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reedstrm Right: if I was giving a presentation to law enforcement types, I don't lead with the word hacker, for example.
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GWG If course, it is my right to ignore it.
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GWG Or block it
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thedod tantek, I agree with you. I've learned here today that no matter what *I* think the word "troll" means, it's not productive to use it :)
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reedstrm GWG perhaps, but that doesn't mean I need to support it on my site, even with the protocols I develop.
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tantek GWG - if your'e referring to free speech sure. like any right, we draw the boundary where it imposes on others rights, such as to be free of abuse and harm.
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tantek thedod - it *is* useful to use the term troll when it means what people popularly take it to mean per wikipedia
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KartikPrabhu yo aaronpk: getting cert error on the https version of the logs
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aaronpk KartikPrabhu: in firefox?
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KartikPrabhu yes
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tantek thedod - for example that Wikipedia article relates it specifically to online harrassment
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aaronpk try a different browser
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KartikPrabhu hmmm is it a FF problem?
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aaronpk apparently I was supposed to wait a day after getting the new cert
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tantek thedod please read http://indiewebcamp.com/code-of-conduct for example
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aaronpk to wait for the OCSP servers to catch up or something. I don't know how this works.
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: yeah works on chrome
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tantek KartikPrabhu: nope - AFAIK FF is being strict with handling HTTPS
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KartikPrabhu ok will report later if persists
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thedod OK. So I'll try to revise stuff so that it doesn't use the term "troll" for "someone with multiple identites"
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reedstrm So, I think there _is_ a place for a voice in these discussion who looks at them from the point of view of the needs of the pseduonymous. That's what ello supposedly started about, isn't it?
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tantek thanks thedod - I think that will help you get your points across much better.
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aaronpk pseudonyms are totally compatible with the indieweb
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aaronpk as are multiple identities
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tantek agreed
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thedod multiple is the key point
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aaronpk yeah nobody is arguing against that
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tantek what is a pseudonym?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "pseudonym" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=pseudonym
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thedod and to minimize the ability to unify them
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tantek thedod - do you have a blog post about this on your own site? something saying what you have already figured out? beyond the slide deck?
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tantek or are you brainstorming realtime in the channel?
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thedod https://hidden-id.github.io is the project
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tantek are you using it on your own site?
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thedod and there's a whole blog at https://zzzen.com/hiddenid where you can only login with HiddenID (was built as a demo), but it contains many posts about this
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tantek and I didn't ask about a project, I asked about all the discussion you made above about identities, multiple etc.
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thedod including one about "I'm going to indiewebcamp"
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tantek thedod - is zzzen just a demo site?
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tantek not your personal site?
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thedod no
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thedod zzzen is me and my wife
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thedod we make sites
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thedod dubiousdod.org is me
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tantek do you use the same IRC nickname also?
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thedod but I can't use it with indieauth because / redirects to an ugly url
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thedod the same irc nickname as what?
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tantek what software are you using that makes it redirect to an ugly url?
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tantek as you
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thedod tahoe-lafs.org
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aaronpk actually indieauth supports redirects just fine
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thedod then I'll give it a whirl.
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tantek what is Tahoe-LAFS?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Tahoe-LAFS" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Tahoe-LAFS
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thedod it
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tantek thedod, in general it is frowned upon on indiewebcamp.com to use "shared" sites for login - certainly against the intent.
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aaronpk you'll need either a rel-me link to twitter which then links back to https://dubiousdod.org/ or you could use one of the other providers like persona/gpg
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tantek typically such sites get blacklisted in indiewebcamp's usage of indieauth
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tantek to discourage that
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thedod ok. if redirects work, brb
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thedod zzzen.com *represents* me and my wife as an *idea*
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aaronpk http://dreev.es is an example of this
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thedod it's not a shared service
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thedod but let me fix this and become https://dubiousdod.org BRB
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tantek btw regarding the POSSE discussion earlier today, and kylewm's point about why bother to POSSE an indie-to-indie reply to Twitter, I'm seeing very different interaction on POSSE copies on Twitter vs Facebook
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tantek I only POSSE a few things to FB, manually using Bridgy publish. While I automatically POSSE all my posts to Twitter.
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GWG Tantek, why? Because of the increased number of formats on Facebook?
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tantek GWG, I'm experimenting with POSSE to FB
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tantek it's a new thing
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tantek for me
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GWG Oh. I just find I get more backfeed
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tantek For my most recent post - http://tantek.com/t4Z31 - it has gotten 11x more interactions (comments and likes) on the FB POSSE copy than the Twitter POSSE copy.
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GWG Of course, the value of the feed is questionable
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tantek I've never seen such disparity
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tantek I'm wondering what kind of interactions others get who POSSE to both Twitter and FB.
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tantek I think benwerd does that
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GWG The Facebook denizens have been trained to like things
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GWG Twitter favorites aren't as clearly defined
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tantek and comment more. I got ~10 comments on FB. and zero @-replies on Twitter.
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reedstrm tantek: that's also a 'personal lifestyle' type of post. Depending on who follows you where, you might see diff results.
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tantek GWG, I also wonder if it has to do with Twitter people only seeing a bit of the post
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tantek and having to click through to my site to read the rest
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reedstrm e.g. I 'friend' family on FB, I follow professional colleagues on twitter ( and G+)
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tantek reedstrm FWIW I have about 2.5x more followers on Twitter than FB.
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GWG I'm easy. I will be your friend anywhere, but if you are active on multiple services I'll pick the one that you are most active/useful on.
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tantek and anyone can @-reply to my tweet. whereas I think only about ~1500 can on FB.
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tantek structurally I should be seeing more interactions on Twitter
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dubiousdod.org created /User:Dubiousdod.org (+222) "Created page with "Mentaly retired. [[File:https://dubiousdod.org/uri/URI:DIR2-RO:4ihykxpazbbd3b4y527o5ibeom:edmce7aavjq7lh7git6p4bm5errgc4t65ndewhpivz7pqjj37l7q/retirement.jpg]] Best place to se..."" (view diff)
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tantek Just wanted to provide this POSSE comparison data point to see if others have different/similar experiences
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GWG Tantek, I am still having Twitter POSSE issues. I keep getting truncated.
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GWG But it may just be the same thing you see.
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GWG Be back later.
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tantek GWG - "getting truncated?" I think you have to deliberately truncate before POSSEing to twitter or else it returns an error.
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tantek Twitter won't auto-truncate for you through the API.
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reedstrm tantek Hmm, just look at the two formats of the post, the tweet is not very compelling, to me, as not -a-marathoner, and not an bay-area resident. Interesting datapoint.
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tantek thedod: don't forget /irc-people ! :)
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dubiousdod.org edited /IRC_People (+0) "I meant the *domain*. Not the *avatar*." (view diff)
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thedod back. I think I covered it all :)
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@erinjo RT @erichansander: Fun weekend project: containerize #withknown using #Docker - done! @withknown @indiewebcamp https://github.com/ehdr/docker-known http… (twitter.com/_/status/531914396126044160)
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@Sharydow @aral @thijs @jaffathecake How dare they use the same word than us? #indietech #indieweb #indiegame #indieart #indiemusic #indiesoda (twitter.com/_/status/531932211688538113)
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fiatjaf how can -force- convince people to have their own website and put everything in there?
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@IndieMusicBot RT @Sharydow: @aral @thijs @jaffathecake How dare they use the same word than us? #indietech #indieweb #indiegame #indieart #indiemusic #in… (twitter.com/_/status/531934374674313217)
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tantek lol at that tweet
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tantek fiatjaf what are you trying to force and why?
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fiatjaf oh, forget about it.
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fiatjaf I'm being silly.
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XgF tantek: Thats the kind of post where I think maybe my Facebook friends would be interested (people who know me in person) but not my Twitter followers (people who have relatively common interests with me on the internet)
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@Freerange_Inc Hands up if your a #indieweb company (or project team), based in the UK? (twitter.com/_/status/531937608168128512)
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XgF should probably note for tantek's benefit that he's oshepherd @ SocialWG and elsewhere. My Freenode name is... for historical reasons
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@Freerange_Inc Hands up if you're a #indieweb company (or project team), based in the UK? (twitter.com/_/status/531937768956776449)
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@Freerange_Inc RT @benwerd: If you're motivated by #iamindie, check out the grassroots #indieweb movement: http://indiewebcamp.com (twitter.com/_/status/531938090072682496)
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tantek so here's my question - why did the company that is ind.ie choose to use the name "indie", *knowing* that there were plenty of other overloaded uses of the term already, not the least of which was "indieweb" ?
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/repost/twitter/benwerd/531242084066263040/531938090072682496 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/benwerd/531242084066263040/11822502 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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fiatjaf tantek: the domain was available.
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@kevinmarks RT @Freerange_Inc: Hands up if you're a #indieweb company (or project team), based in the UK? (twitter.com/_/status/531942751495942144)
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kylewm tantek: I think the non-cynical answer is he doesn't think indieweb goes far enough... like when people point out, sure you own your own domain but the server is hosted by Amazon so what have you really gained
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kylewm (people were pointing that out to *him* after the launch)
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tantek kylewm - for starters you gain that you own your data more than you do when its own Twitter - which, is incrementally more than all those "iamindie" tweets - they're not actually indie
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tantek s/its own/it's on
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Loqi tantek meant to say: kylewm - for starters you gain that you own your data more than you do when it's on Twitter - which, is incrementally more than all those "iamindie" tweets - they're not actually indie
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tantek kylewm - and nothing says you have to use Amazon. You can be as "indie" as you want - your own server at home if you like.
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kylewm OK well then the wires are owned by Comcast, or something
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tantek minimizing dependencies to 2: your DNS provider, and your ISP
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kylewm I think it is a "letting perfect be the enemy of the good" situation, either everything is free and open or nothing is
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tantek agreed with that
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tantek but scope was not the question
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tantek the bad choice of overused/overloaded name was the question
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kylewm like I think he wants to be the thing that underpins all that is indie
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aaronpk he's gonna have to start an indie music label soon now too
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kylewm cynical answer (and what I actually believe) is he wanted to capitalize on the success of indieweb and others by co-opting the name
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tantek kylewm "he wants to be the thing that underpins all that is indie" <- and that is what I think is triggering the complaints of arrogance and ego-centrism.
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tantek "all that is indie" predates indieweb, aral, or any of us
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tantek and it is exceedingly arrogant to claim to be "the thing that underpins" "all that"
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tantek as a result, I don't want to believe that explanation
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kylewm tantek: agree that it is exceedingly arrogant (ignorant of history?), what do you think the explanation is then?
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tantek kylewm: I haven't come up with a good explanation that doesn't assume some degree of malice or flawed self/ego-centrism, so I'm not willing to offer an explanation. I'm rejecting all the explanations I have come up with so far.
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tantek I'm still trying to come up with an explanation based on good intentions + lack of information/knowledge rather than anything malicious or egocentric/arrogant.
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tantek on another more productive topic
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tantek I got an email about registration now open for OS Bridge 2015
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tantek which is traditionally around the time we plan the main annual IndieWebCamp
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tantek yet this past year aaronpk (and others?) noted being too tired from OSBridge to be as productive at IndieWebCamp, and wondered if we could plan IndieWebCamp *not* adjacent to OS Bridge (2015-06-23..26)
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aaronpk I think we tossed around the idea of doing it the weekend *before* OSBridge
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aaronpk but I'm not necessarily tied to that idea either
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tantek a-ha
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tantek we have candidate dates then
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tantek let's start capturing those
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aaronpk that would be June 20-21
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tantek.com edited /2015 (+228) "subheads, organizers, candidate dates" (view diff)
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kylewm tantek: aaronpk: do you think it'll be split east/west again?
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tantek kylewm: I think the question is *how* many cities, not if
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tantek I know Jeremy wants to host in NYC again
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bear count me in for NYC or Boston or anywhere really on the east coast
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tantek aaronpk - hoping you can help co-organize again! Add yourself: http://indiewebcamp.com/2015#Organizers
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tantek bear - good point! I should add candidate locations
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bear tantek - and that co-org help also comes with some &yet sponsorship
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tantek.com edited /2015 (-22) "/* Organizers */ see below" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /2015 (+17) "add aaronpk and bear to specific cities per organizer self-descriptions" (view diff)
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bear i'll fix the double-bear for NY
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kylewm send one of those bears out here!
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bear doh!
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bear waits a good 2 minutes before editing
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tantek lol
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tantek stops editing /2015 for now
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tantek have at it folks
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tantek kylewm: were you thinking you could help co-organize?
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tantek or participate in some locations?
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tantek feel free to add cities that you could participate in
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tantek of possible interest to those who "blog" in Markdown: http://www.leenau.com/2014/11/09/hreview-microformats-in-markdown/
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tantek a one-off way to encode a microformat in markdown
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bear reads with interest
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kylewm tantek: yes but also trying to figure out how to ask without sounding like a jerk, what's the rationale for having separate IWCs simultaneously
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bear get people like me who have trouble travelling far distances to participate
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bear a train ride to NY I can swing any weekend - flying to SF or Portland requires a lot more effort
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tantek kylewm - the short answer is - because people stepped up to organize
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tantek IWC East happened because Jeremy Zilar wanted to host an IWC in NYC simultanesouly with the one in Portland
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tantek IWC Farther East happened because bnvk wanted to host on IWC in Berlin simultaneously
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tantek so I suppose the rationale is - because someone took the initiative and wanted to, and it seemed more in the "indie" spirit as well as *decentralized* spirit to encourage and enable multiple locations
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tantek wonders if that's worth an FAQ
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kylewm just to be clear -- i'm not at all saying there shouldn't be as many IWCs as there want to be
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bear at least a mention at the top of /2015
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tantek cool
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tantek goes back to editing /2015
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tantek bear if you think that hReview via markdown article is worthy of consideration, please add to /Markdown. As I'm not a markdown user I didn't know how to evaluabe the merits of their proposal.
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bear I was pondering taht - I use a simliar method in my jinja2 templates
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bear.im edited /markdown (+373) "two examples of markdown and microformats" (view diff)
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bear.im edited /markdown (+104) "add leenau.com article to Articles section" (view diff)
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mko tantek + kylewm: I think it would be neat if the different IWCs collaborated and did something like "shared sessions" with some video conferencing or something to connect the different IWCs while still letting each one provide their own unique experiences, too.
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bear we could make sure certain "domain experts" are known so everyone could make use of them
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bear something like "HTTPS Hour with bear and ..." or some such
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mko Satellite IWCs basically where someone would host the main IWC at one location and the satellite IWCs would have their own experiences but still able to participate in some of the main IWC (perhaps like having the keynote presentation streamed to all Satellite IWCs).
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mko bear++
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Loqi bear has 45 karma
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bear the dilemma with large time zone swings was being able to participate in another cities remote session
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tantek mko - we did that this past year --> "neat if the different IWCs collaborated and did something like "shared sessions" with some video conferencing or something to connect the different IWCs while still letting each one provide their own unique experiences, too"
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mko Oh, well, there you go.
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tantek clearly we didn't document it well enough ;)
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kylewm did others have better luck with the shared sessions? (maybe in the big room in portland?)