#indiewebcamp 2014-11-14

2014-11-14 UTC
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tantek kylewm - the problem is in your use of "the" (no seriously). It is either *your* lightsaber, or *a* lightsaber.
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KartikPrabhu <click> <buzzzzzzzzz>
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tantek implied in the SW mythology about lightsabers is that you have *only* one, that you are expected to have *built* it *yourself*, and that you *depend* on it as an extension of your *self*.
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KartikPrabhu <whoooom> <whooooooom>
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KartikPrabhu should stop
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: are you making lightsaber sounds?
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bret sidenote... checking out brianloveswords's super minimal but super awesome selfdogfooding POSSE site http://bjb.io
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KartikPrabhu perceptive you are - Lord Varys
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tantek in RoJ, Luke is selfdogfooding his own lightsaber that he made. however in Ep1, Anakin is merely dogfooding C3P0, which he built to also help his mom. C3P0 is not part of Anakin. No aspect of identity/self.
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kylewm hahaha
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tantek wonders if he needs to add that example to the wiki
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kylewm so let's call it "lightsabering"
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KartikPrabhu tantek: kylewm: maybe we should avoid fandom references on the wiki
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bret lightsabering your own website?
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KartikPrabhu except on personal project pages like Red Wind
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tantek.com edited /selfdogfood (+484) "attempt to make it more clear how selfdogfooding is above and beyond just dogfooding (just using your code on some site somewhere)" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /dogfood (+17) "clarify selfdogfood is a principle" (view diff)
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tantek a-ha I see gRegor` has already mentioned lightsaber on /selfdogfood. So be it.
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tantek.com edited /selfdogfood (+581) "/* Discussion */ expand upon gRegor's discussion example of "Lightsaber"" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /selfdogfood (+4) "/* key components */ -" (view diff)
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tantek KartikPrabhu: does this help? http://indiewebcamp.com/selfdogfood#key_components
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KartikPrabhu looking
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KartikPrabhu yup.
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KartikPrabhu in the same vein... are people who use indieweb code such as Known but not actively code it not follow the indieweb selfdogfood principle?
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tantek.com edited /selfdogfood (+50) "/* key components */ link WP Philosophy of Self" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /creator (+18) "/* See also */ selfdogfood" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /selfdogfood (+45) "/* key components */ link creator" (view diff)
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tantek KartikPrabhu: partially correct. they are not selfdogfooding Known, unless they actively *create* part of it (code is just one aspect - see /creator )
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tantek However, there may be other things on their personal site that they create, in which case they are selfdogfooding those creations
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KartikPrabhu so selfdogfooding is for code creators not artists and writer who would use indieweb code
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tantek KartikPrabhu: no see /creator
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KartikPrabhu on it
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tantek code is just one aspect
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gRegor` Ooh, glad to see build your own lightsaber getting attention :)
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KartikPrabhu tantek: per http://indiewebcamp.com/creator#Creator it seems just writing on your KNown instance does not count. You have to code, make UI.UX or visual designs
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tantek for example, I am selfdogfooding /Falcon as sole creator, and I'm even selfdogfooding the tmhOAuth library I use for relmeauth as a *partial* *fractional* contributor
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tantek correct, just "writing" is not selfdogfooding. unless perhaps you're a philosopher and your website is actually demonstrating the very philosophy you write about
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tantek if you wrote a recipe for dogfood, and then cooked it yourself, and ate it regularly, you would be selfdogfooding that writing
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KartikPrabhu not just philosophers but if a photographer uses known to publish their photos, it does not count as a complete indieweb principle satisfaction
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tantek but most writing is not recipes for something else. most writing does not "build" anything.
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KartikPrabhu they are not contributing visual design to the site
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tantek KartikPrabhu: right, perhaps more generally, merely publishing is not dogfooding
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tantek you have to be creating some aspect of a *tool* which you then *use*
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tantek as a writer, if you invent new words, and use them as part of your personal identity on your website, you could be selfdogfooding those words
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KartikPrabhu yeah. I suppose as long as the goal is to own their own photos/writing I suppose it doesn't matter if they are technically selfdogfooding or not
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tantek ownyourdata is different from selfdogfooding
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KartikPrabhu yeah
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tantek selfdogfooding is a filter we applies to creators
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tantek ownyourdata is something everyone should do
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KartikPrabhu yup. got it :)
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kylewm whoa. selfdogfooding writing dogfood recipes. tantek you have gone too far!
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KartikPrabhu lol
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gRegor` Interesting. Until now I think I considered people publishing on their own site as selfdogfooding. Thanks for the clarification.
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gRegor` Yo dawg, we heard you like dogfood . . .
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kylewm well hang on now, andicascadesf was chided yesterday for not selfdogfooding her suggestion to blog every day for a month
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gRegor` Ooh
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tantek that's right
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tantek because "blog every day for a month" is essentially a script that human executes. it's code.
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: chided is a strong word
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tantek she wanted others to run that code, but she wasn't running it herself (or so it seemed)
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gRegor` So yeah, I think that's a stretch.
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tantek because she wasn't running it herself, on her own personal site, she was not selfdogfooding it
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: saying"lets all blog once a day" is different from "join me and blog every day"
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tantek which is different from "hey everybody, *you* should blog once a day"
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gRegor` Gotta head out, though. Will catch up later.
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tantek and: "*I'm" blogging once a day. You should too"
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: you're right, chided was too strong. I cannot think of a better synonym atm
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tantek questioned
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KartikPrabhu me thinks the whole "blog every day" thing is what turned people off blogging in the first place. Not everyone can come up with stuff to write everyday
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KartikPrabhu blog = web-log is not good
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: "let's all blog every day" vs. "join me and blog every day", which one of those is what?
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kylewm she said "I'd love to lead a..."
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KartikPrabhu the first is a suggestion the second would be selfdogfooding
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: I am not de-constructing the exact words. maybe I am building a strawman who knows :P
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gRegor` writing a blog post at random times (as the fancy hits you) is just publishing, not selfdogfooding, but setting up a schedule makes it selfdogfooding?
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KartikPrabhu nope
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tantek gRegor`: depends, if your "setting up a schedule" is programmatic, and you share that code, and do it, you could be said to be selfdogfooding *just that code*
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gRegor` is lost
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gRegor` I don't think anyone that "blogs every day" is writing code for it.
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kylewm I can't tell if tantek is being serious
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tantek gRegor`: I think you're missing the key aspect that certain subsets of English statements can be interpreted as code that humans execute.
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kylewm between dogfood-ception and the definition if "the"
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tantek recipes are the most common example of this
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KartikPrabhu tantek does not kid
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kylewm I'm inclined to think no
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gRegor` Wait, is this evil tantek? jk
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gRegor` Ok, *actually* heading out now
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tantek KartikPrabhu: could you take a crack at documenting the clarifications above where you said "yup. got it " as FAQs on /selfdogfood ?
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tantek since clearly you had questions, and they eventually got answered.
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KartikPrabhu will do. keeping tab open as reminder
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tantek looks like there's already an FAQ section: http://indiewebcamp.com/selfdogfood#FAQ
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kylewm I feel like half of this page is tongue-in-cheek
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kylewm (which is fine)
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kylewm tantek++ for the C3P0/lightsaber distinction
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Loqi tantek has 121 karma
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kylewm aaronpk: have you looked into server sent events more? it seems like having a traditional http server + a realtime server communicating over redis (i.e. the way you have done real time comments so far) is way more common than i knew
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aaronpk Yeah I have a prototype of my realtime comments mechanism using SSE now
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aaronpk Still uses redis
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kylewm all in the same php application though?
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aaronpk I like that it removed one of the moving parts, that I don't have to have a separate app running
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aaronpk Yeah because SSE is really simple. It's basically just a way for the server to keep a connection open and send partial responses
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kylewm how will you handle the thread problem though?
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aaronpk We used to do this with long polling, except with long poking the client would have to make a new connection each time you sent an event
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aaronpk I dunno, same way you handle any type of load
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kylewm from the documentaiton, I'm having a little trouble differentiating what is necessary and what's necessary at scale
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kylewm it's not load that i'm worried about though...it's holding open those threads
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kylewm i guess it would be the same issue with long polling?
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kylewm and possibly i just don't know how web servers work
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aaronpk So Apache will make a new OS thread for each request. I think with nginx that is not the case
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kylewm but like right now my uWSGI application has 4 processes and 2 threads each... so if 8 people have the site open at the same time, it would be completely locked down
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aaronpk Are you sure? cause node apps don't have that problem
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kylewm cause node's all asynchronous, right?
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kylewm that's like the point of it
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kylewm but no I'm definitely not sure
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kylewm and I'm also thinking that nginx/apache shouldn't matter, since they are just proxying to the application...
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aaronpk Apache can either run the php code itself or proxy to a back end php server
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kylewm I thought you were an nginx?
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aaronpk I have been switching to nginx but still have apache in places
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kylewm if you are using php-fpm, I think it's the same kind of thing.. some number of worker processes and threads
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aaronpk Yea
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kylewm so Armin (the Flask guy) has this long thing about realtime http://lucumr.pocoo.org/2012/8/5/stateless-and-proud/
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kylewm and I do not understand it at all
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kylewm he recommends Flask + redis + a realtime server
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kylewm and also says bad stuff about Tornado (the Python equiv of node.js)
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kylewm but I am like "you just recommended a realtime server"
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pdurbin "realtime is pushing, non realtime is polling"
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aaronpk that's an interesting article
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aaronpk I think he's basically saying the thing that is keeping persistent connections open should not be your main web app
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aaronpk also is not unique to the python land
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aaronpk also that's basically exactly how I've described realtime comments here http://webmention.io/#streaming-api
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aaronpk (where webmention.io is providing the component that "maintains the standing connections and subscribes to redis")
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kylewm I mean I think it's exactly how you've implemented them too
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kylewm where node.js subscribes to redis and holds up the persistent connections
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kylewm open*
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aaronpk yeah
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aaronpk so my new implementation of SSE using the same PHP app is explicitly moving away from the direction he's describing in that article
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aaronpk in favor of a simpler infrastructure
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kylewm does it make sense why i'm worried that will make you very easy to DoS?
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aaronpk I think there's a way to do it with nginx+php-fpm that won't be a problem
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aaronpk apache + mod_php yes very easy to DOS
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kylewm ok cool
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kylewm when you figure it out let me know :)
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pdurbin aaronpk: simpler in what way?
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aaronpk can run using the same code base and doesn't require running a separate server process
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pdurbin hmm. ok. (I'm still reading the article.)
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aaronpk my current architecture requires running this node.js app (or could easily be written in ruby or python) as a totally separate thing from whatever web server you're running (nginx+php, nginx+ruby, python whatever)
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aaronpk that means an additional process on the web server as well as listening on a different port. and if you're SSL, then you have to do SSL termination in both places.
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@airbornesurfer Why I Joined the IndieWeb Movement http://airbornesurfer.com/2014/10/why-i-joined-the-indieweb-movement/ (twitter.com/_/status/533105510632161280)
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bret kylewm: yeah the philosophy of node is that everything that blocks should be async. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztspvPYybIY is pretty good at explaining the original line of thought. def worth a watch
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bret prioritizing the completion of a specific task to as close as its original calling time tends to result in increased overall concurrency, despite only a single thing happening at any one given time
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@airbornesurfer The Creepy New Wave Of The #Internet #IndieWeb #InternetOfThings #Spying http://airbornesurfer.com/?p=3681 (twitter.com/_/status/533121849367199744)
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@itknowingness RT @airbornesurfer: The Creepy New Wave Of The #Internet #IndieWeb #InternetOfThings #Spying http://airbornesurfer.com/?p=3681 (twitter.com/_/status/533121851619573761)
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bret (one thing at a time due to the single threaded event loop)
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@GoGenericGirl RT @airbornesurfer: The Creepy New Wave Of The #Internet #IndieWeb #InternetOfThings #Spying http://airbornesurfer.com/?p=3681 (twitter.com/_/status/533124190027513857)
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tylergillies__ you guys see http://ipfs.io/ ?
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bret tylergillies__: no I haven't! but it looks neato
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bret lets cross our fingers something cool comes out of that effort.
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tylergillies__ the next big innnovation is where you're going to be able to host a website on the general 'internet' and not need an entire server
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bret yeah that's kind of a big dream for a lot of people it seems.... myself included
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bret (although I've settled on things like gh-pages and neocites at the moment)
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tylergillies__ gh-pages is nice
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tylergillies__ http://getlittlebird <== gh-pages + jeykyll
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bret the large file problem is still totally unsolved ime
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tylergillies__ er
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tylergillies__ http://getlittlebird.com
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bret tylergillies__: is that your site?
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tylergillies__ yep
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bret nice. im a big fan of the fork n go/one click deploy model
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tylergillies__ yeah, it used to be on wordpress but we kept getting hacked
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tylergillies__ so i copy pasted the html to jekyll and went from there
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bret I'm putting together a indieweb gh-pages boiler plate site right now
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bret https://github.com/bcomnes/base
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bret still trying to figure out how to use the Jekyll data folder as a centralized data store for things like people data and stuff
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bret but the idea is to pair it with something like micropub that works with static sites in git repos https://github.com/bcomnes/gitpub
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bret if http://ipfs.io/ can accept a git push with static site content, all of this could be hosted on something like that instead of gh-pages
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bret you also have, of course, camlistore https://camlistore.org/ and https://git-annex.branchable.com/ which are somewhat of a mix of what http://ipfs.io/ sounds like its trying to do, but I haven't seen a realistic personal website hosted out of either yet
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tylergillies__ bret: i sent you a few bucks worth of bitcoin :)
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bret tylergillies++
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Loqi tylergillies has 37 karma
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bret :D
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tylergillies__ camilstore is pretty much a store all the things model right?
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bret camlistore is an imutible datastore.... so everything you put in is saved to disk and deltas are layered on top as the data changes... everything you put in can theoretically come back out at some point
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bret the idea is versioning for large files
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bret implications are huge, but it assumes unlimited storage.... which is fairly realistic for google employees
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@iothingsbot The Creepy New Wave Of The Internet IndieWeb Internet Of Things Spying http://airbornesurfer.com/?p=3681 (twitter.com/_/status/533131202488983552)
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bret at home, maintain large raids tends to be a pain in the kneck
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bret maintaining*
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bret it also handles things like http file tranmissions and file chunking
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bret and has modeling layers on top of the data store so think gmail labels instead of folders
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bret pretty neat, but I haven't been able to find a way to really make it work for me yet. its a huge project and is only a few years in
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bret git-annex has the best distribution models just check out this remote add option menu: http://bret.io/2014/08/28/git-annex/
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bret ime its confusing and slow to use though
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bret very cool, im gonna read this paper
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bret tylergillies__: if you wanna play around with p2p stuff, IWC does p2p backups of the wiki data: http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/backup
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bret i guess maybe we should also offer a syncthing option
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bret but I dont even know how that does peering
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tylergillies__ BTSync is pretty cool
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kylewm ahem, Pulse
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tylergillies__ pulse?
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kylewm SyncThing has been rebranded Pulse
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tylergillies__ ah
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KartikPrabhu if I may
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KartikPrabhu what is btsync?
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Loqi Bittorrent Sync is a proprietary Dropbox replacement/alternative http://indiewebcamp.com/btsync
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KartikPrabhu what is syncthing?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "syncthing" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=syncthing
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bret new personal policy... not writing about things I dont use
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bret >:]
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KartikPrabhu :P
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bret actually no, whats the point. ill write about whatever i feel like
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KartikPrabhu there you go!
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KartikPrabhu i did that because I did not understand anything in that discussion
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tylergillies__ kylewm++
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Loqi kylewm has 80 karma
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kylewm tylergillies__: what'd I do?
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tylergillies__ pulse link i forgot that existed. now running
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kylewm oh :)
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tylergillies__ I'm a sucker for crypto things: http://screencast.com/t/g2ocOBz9f9w
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kylewm you have lots of Clojure tabs open
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tylergillies__ That page is made in clojurescript
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kylewm clojure is neat
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tylergillies__ im using core.async which is essentially golang goroutines in javascript
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KartikPrabhu what is clojure?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "clojure" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=clojure
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tylergillies__ i have a state function that fires off an update on all the dom elements on button click
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tylergillies__ KartikPrabhu: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clojure
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KartikPrabhu hmmm stopped reading at "runs on JVM"
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kylewm VM snobbery!
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tylergillies__ JVM is the best platform in the world
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tylergillies__ literally billions of dollars went into making it battle ready
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bret just noticed, the bitcoins i got from the bt faucet 2 years ago magically turned into 8 USD
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tylergillies__ nice
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tylergillies__ i found a whole bitcoin in one of my random backups
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tylergillies__ before the crash so it was like 700 bucks
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tantek joins to see a bunch of plumbing discussions
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bear looks like I missed the "if you run a static site, how do you do ..." discussion above
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tantek what is a static site?
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Loqi http://indiewebcamp.com/static-site
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tantek what is a bitcoin?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "bitcoin" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=bitcoin
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tantek welcome tylergillies - add yourself to indiewebcamp.com/irc-people !
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kylewm bear: do you know about server push stuff in python? having a hard time figuring out how to do it without going all in on gevent or Tornado
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tantek what is gevent?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "gevent" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=gevent
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tantek what is Tornado?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Tornado" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Tornado
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bear I may need some more information
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bear is the python app on the server that is going to do the push to a web client? another client?
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tylergillies__ tantek: is there a dns based indie auth protocol? My main site has a pretty strict url structure and redirects are setup using docker nginx template regex lines so I'd rather not mess with it
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tantek can you not edit your home page markup?
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tantek what is your main site?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "your main site" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=your+main+site
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tylergillies__ http://pdx.wesbite
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kylewm bear: just trying to recreate aaronpk's "realtime comments", but without running two separate server processes
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kylewm so the server will be pushing a (very) occasional event up to the client
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tylergillies__ oops
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tylergillies__ http://pdx.website
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bear I would use python websockets behind nginx for that
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tantek tylergillies__: that looks like a group forum - not a personal site
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bear kylewm - see https://ws4py.readthedocs.org/en/latest/
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tylergillies__ tantek: its the only site i have on the internets heh
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bear tornado, gevent and all of those really just implement long polling
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tantek do you not have a personal site tylergillies__ ?
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tylergillies__ nope :(
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tylergillies__ i have a domain
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tantek you have a personal domain?
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tylergillies__ http://tylergillies.club/
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tantek that sounds familiar :)
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kylewm tylergillies__: I thought you were running Known
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tylergillies__ no website though
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tylergillies__ i was
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tylergillies__ but that computer got formatted
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tylergillies__ so now its not
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bear kylewm - the choice of gevent or tornado (or even wsgi) will depend on what you have running now server side
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kylewm bear: OK, I am discouraged bc gevent has not been ported Py3 yet. but perhaps ws4py and asyncio can work
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bear it works well
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tantek tylergillies__: how about a setting up a simple static site with github pages that you can then use your domain with? http://indiewebcamp.com/GitHub#GitHub_Pages
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tylergillies__ im surprised theres no indie auth protocol where you just add a TXT record or something
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tylergillies__ tantek++
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Loqi tantek has 122 karma
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tylergillies__ good call
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bear kylewm - for something simple I would run CherryPy under Python v3
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KartikPrabhu tylergillies__: too many protocols
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tantek tylergillies__: configuring DNS is painful enough for most people, nevermind figuring out how each DNS provider has their own UI for editing TXT records etc.
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kylewm bear: ahh, this is the first Im hearing about CherryPy. need to read up. thanks!!
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KartikPrabhu for instance how would you link to the TXT file? tylergillies__
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tantek what is CherryPy?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "CherryPy" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=CherryPy
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bear kylewm yvw
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tylergillies__ its not a file
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tylergillies__ TXT is a dns record type
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bear what is wsgi
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Loqi http://indiewebcamp.com/wsgi
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tantek KartikPrabhu: pretty sure he means a TXT *record* associated with your DNS
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kylewm ha DNS TXT records is interesting
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tylergillies__ my pgp key is in my dns
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KartikPrabhu tantek: tylergillies__ oh ok I don't know what that means so <shrug>
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kylewm is glad he still has Loqi muted, with all the what is'ing going on
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tylergillies__ lol
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tantek tylergillies__: ^^^ that's why there's no indie auth protocol where you just add a TXT record or something
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tylergillies__ tantek: righto
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bear TXT record in DNS is the same IMO as having a well known url for discovery - it just avoids the web server but that is also it's weakness because it's not protected by SSL
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tylergillies__ SSL bit is a good point
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tantek so both a usability issue, *and* a security issue
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tantek ok that's FAQ time
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bear now having a TXT record to aid in discovery may be useful, but IMO that is much better served by having microformat h-card at your root domain
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KartikPrabhu tantek: soory about not adding to FAQ about /selfdogfood busy with paper readings
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KartikPrabhu will attempt tomorrow morning
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tantek so many "why not"s in the IndieAuth FAQ
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KartikPrabhu haha!
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tantek thanks KartikPrabhu - I think it's quite important to capture such nuances / details / clarifications about /selfdogfood
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bear.im created /cherrypy (+145) "Created page with "'''<dfn>CherryPy</dfn>''' is a minimalist Python Web Framework. [http://www.cherrypy.org/ CherryPy] == See also == * [[static-site]] * [[wsgi]]"" (view diff)
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bear.im edited /IndieAuth (+589) "first pass at capturing two points about why not DNS TXT" (view diff)
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tylergillies__ hrm
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tylergillies__ indieauth.com isn't verifying my site :(
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tylergillies__ hey it worked
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tylergillies__ wooo
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tylergillies__ meh failed on second part
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tylergillies.club edited /IRC_People (+65) "/* Nicknames */" (view diff)
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tylergillies.club created /User:Tylergillies.club (+75) "Created page with "Oi. I haz website Give me bitcoin plaz. 1F9bax85tY4bqczsUdWKkgtg5J6kW3nJr8"" (view diff)
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tommorris https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/aws/s3-event-notification/ - zomg, this is actually useful
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tommorris it's the thing I've been wishing Amazon would do for a while.
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notizblog.org edited /IRC_People (+44) "/* Nicknames */" (view diff)
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dubiousdod.org edited /2014/Online/Guest_List (+138) "I think I can already divulge my personal domain name at this point ;)" (view diff)
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@IndieHosters @DeadSuperHero We are first focusing on #IndieWeb, but we are definitely looking on federated social web too! (twitter.com/_/status/533224753633705984)
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@IndieHosters @larjona99 We are first focusing on IndieWeb, but we'll work on federated social web later! (twitter.com/_/status/533224939344887808)
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@XopssVyGT9GRByZ BxonOEC6o9 #IndieAuthor #indieauth #BookBoost #author (twitter.com/_/status/533234182278098944)
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gregorlove.com edited /selfdogfood (+9) "/* Lightsaber */ respect the 'Wars ;)" (view diff)
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gRegor` Morning, indiewebcamp
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snarfed hey gRegor`
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Loqi snarfed: KartikPrabhu left you a message on 11/13 at 1:49pm: what are bridgy's latest reply webmention sending policies? of instance this: https://twitter.com/tilgovi/status/532982155354193920 did not get sent back because it was the 2nd reply/ was it not a reply at all?
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gRegor` Hey snarfed
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gregorlove.com edited /cherrypy (+4) (view diff)
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Loqi [mention] http://gregorlove.com/notes/2014/11/14/1/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-11-19-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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@gRegorLove Join us for Homebrew Website Club next Wednesday! http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-11-19-homebrew-website-club https://www.facebook.com/events/1487022768228634/ cc @pitchdesign @marihuertas @dentonjacobs (twitter.com/_/status/533278240521998338)
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ben_thatmust good morning
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snarfed hey ben_thatmust
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snarfed !tell KartikPrabhu sorry. :/ probably twitter's best-effort-only search api struck again. :https://dev.twitter.com/rest/public/search . known issue, not much we can do about it :/ https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/202
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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gRegor` Morning, ben_thatmust
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petermolnar hi all, is anyone pulling comments & favs in from flickr?
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aaronpk that would be a good one since they have a great api for that
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petermolnar it would even be better if brid.gy could do it
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snarfed petermolnar: it'd be great! https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/225
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snarfed aaronpk: sadly, in this case at least, the api isn't so great
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snarfed details in the issue
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petermolnar ah, now I remember, I did see this thread a while ago
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petermolnar snarfed I digged a little around and getting favs and comments does not seem to be an issue once you have the list if image ids and getting the ids seem to be doable as well
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petermolnar please see the comment on the thread
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@jonathanfrei Joining the IndieWeb http://jonathanfrei.com/2014/11/joining-the-indieweb https://twitter.com/jonathanfrei/status/533286580153487360/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/533286580153487360)
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Loqi [mention] http://jonathanfrei.com/2014/11/joining-the-indieweb linked to http://indiewebcamp.com (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] http://jonathanfrei.com/2014/11/joining-the-indieweb linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/Getting_Started (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] http://jonathanfrei.com/2014/11/joining-the-indieweb linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/Wordpress (webmention)
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ben_thatmust manual posse to ARStechnica forums
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ben_thatmust http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2014/11/breaking-the-lock-why-all-game-content-should-be-unlocked-from-the-outset/?comments=1&post=27969095
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@jfrei New Post: Joining the IndieWeb http://jonathanfrei.com/2014/11/joining-the-indieweb?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter (twitter.com/_/status/533294303573860352)
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gRegor` Interesting: http://alistapart.com/blog/post/more-thoughts-about-blockquotes-than-are-strictly-required
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aaronpk a blog post hosted on github's gist: https://gist.github.com/VictorBjelkholm/1d0f4ee6dc5ec0d6646e
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aaronpk with comments and everything
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aaronpk fascinating
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bret gRegor`: stop it. that ALA article is triggering my OCD ;0
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bret are block quotes really figures>
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gRegor` Haha, bret
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bret ?
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Loqi nice
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gRegor` I have yet to dive into <figure>, so no idea
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gRegor` I would venture 'yes', loosely
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bret in the academic paper sense, its like some kind of image, or graph with a caption and label
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bret aaronpk: bummer when new things dont work on all the browsers :(
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aaronpk oh yeah. I was mostly just commenting on the fact that there's an entire blog post with pictures hosted as a gist.
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bret oh yeah heh
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bret gist blog
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/rsvp/facebook/12802152/714336951990549/1802577 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-11-19-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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bret i seen people do full on articles in gists before, but not with photos
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bret ie https://gist.github.com/mikeal/9242748
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/gRegorLove/533278240521998338/11628 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-11-19-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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@DeadSuperHero @IndieHosters Understood, but there is such a significant overlap between the two. Federation enables IndieWeb capabilities further. (twitter.com/_/status/533308053509394432)
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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kylewm Is the plan for IWC Online to have 1/2 day of discussions and 1/2 hack day?
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@aaronpk @BillSeitz I think I get what you're talking about. Sounds like that kind of thing can be done with... #indieweb http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2014/11/14/1/indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/533315871154769920)
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Loqi [mention] http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2014/11/14/1/indieweb linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki-page (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/aaronpk/533004317888770049/533315871154769920 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/aaronpk/533004317888770049/533018944508944384 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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GWG kylewm, yes.
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kylewm.com edited /2014/Online/Guest_List (+29) "/* Participants */ add user image" (view diff)
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gRegor` Haha "22:00 Camp Closed - clean up your room"
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aaronpk I should totally get pizza delivered to my room for this
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Loqi yea!
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gRegor` OMG, @indiewebcat
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GWG I'm getting a dryer delivered in the middle of it
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aaronparecki.com edited /events/2014-11-19-homebrew-website-club (+30) "/* RSVP */ rsvp no" (view diff)
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@BlockAccess @koinify: Gems Token Sale Details & Update | http://koinify.com/blog/gems-token-sale-details-update @getgemsorg #TakingBackSocial #OwnYourData (twitter.com/_/status/533333059333279745)
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snarfed hey all! …just to confirm, we don't yet have explicit mf2 for checkins, right?
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snarfed of the five examples i looked at, most use p-location and/or h-card for the venue, and occasionally h-geo, but nothing like h-as-checkin or similar
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snarfed (i'd take it to #microformats but lazy)
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snarfed (the closest i've found on the mf wiki is http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2#h-event_location_h-card , which isn't much)
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snarfed here are the five i looked at: kylewm, aaronpk, barnabywalters, tommorris, benwerd: https://snarfed.org/checkin_research.txt
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aaronpk mine is not a checkin
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aaronpk mine is a photo posted at a venue
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aaronpk i think barnaby's is as well
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snarfed ah, thanks
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aaronpk I know barnaby does actually have checkin posts
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snarfed i'll find one
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kylewm it looks like mko does "p-geo h-geo"
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kylewm https://kylewm.com/services/mf2?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmowens.com%2Fcheckins%2F2014%2F11%2F13%2F4%2Fchicken-katsu-nom
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kylewm I think he is the most prolific poster of checkins
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aaronpk soon I will be a strong contender for that title
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kylewm didn't glennjones add automatic gps based checkins?
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kylewm not sure, but here are more to choose from http://glennjones.net/checkins
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aaronpk i'm not a fan of automatic checkins. automatic prompts sure, but not actual posts.
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kylewm glenn's do not appear to be associated with a venue
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snarfed thanks all
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kylewm anyway, I think "p-location h-card" is correct if it's a venue, "p-location h-geo" if it's coordinates
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aaronpk that still doesn't indicate it's an actual checkin though. because a photo at a venue would also be "p-location h-card"
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kylewm that's a problem with every post type :)
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snarfed kylewm: kinda. maybe more like we just don't have a checkin post type
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snarfed (whereas we do for note, article, event, etc)
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snarfed i don't know that we need one. just thinking out loud
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aaronpk you mean like it's also ambiguous whether something is a note+photo or a photo+caption?
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kylewm aaronpk: yes
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snarfed aaronpk: sure, i guess similar
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aaronpk I feel like it doesn't really matter for notes/photos, but there is definitely a distinction with checkins
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tantek re: that ALA article - they didn't recognize that the <cite> definition is widely contested: https://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Cite_element
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tantek and they completely forgot/ignored the "cite=" *attribute* on <blockquote> sigh.
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tantek and apparently the HTML spec now allows for <cite> to quote just a person: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/text-level-semantics.html#the-cite-element
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tantek reads scrollback on checkins
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tantek what is a checkin?
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Loqi A checkin is the action of checking into a location and sharing that information http://indiewebcamp.com/checkin
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snarfed tantek: yup, read that a few times. definitely helpful but didn't provide an explicit mf2 class…which is fine
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tantek hmm - look at that - no "how to" section. oops.
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tantek snarfed: let me dig a bit more
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snarfed tantek: sure
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gRegor` Interesting, tantek. realized after sharing the link it's also from January 2013
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tantek found it
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snarfed right now i'm going with .h-event > .h-as-checkin > .h-card.p-location
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snarfed https://snarfed.org/2014-11-13_11514
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snarfed https://kylewm.com/services/mf2?url=https://snarfed.org/2014-11-13_11514
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aaronpk really wants to stay away from "as" classes
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tantek snarfed - either ditch the .h-as-checkin
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snarfed (er, sorry, top level is .h-entry, not .h-event_)
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tantek (was going to say)
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tantek or put it on the same element as the .h-entry
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tantek like class="h-entry h-as-checkin"
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snarfed tantek: i'd love to! but wordpress :(
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tantek wat
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tantek ok in that case ditch it
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snarfed not impossible, but hard
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tantek simpler
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snarfed (same reason i have weak/hidden reply contexts :/)
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tantek you're right about .p-location.h-card per http://indiewebcamp.com/posts#Inferring_post_kinds_from_properties
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tantek :)
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snarfed if we don't like h-as- classes, i can just drop the h-as-
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tantek "with a p-location venue -> checkin"
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snarfed i want an explicit checkin class, but i don't care much whether it's mf2
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tantek problem is not the h-as-, but rather the extra level of object
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aaronpk tantek: I don't think that's accurate. (p-location venue implies checkin)
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Loqi gives snarfed an explicit checkin class
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tantek aaronpk - (counter-)example?
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snarfed aaronpk: right. tantek: most actual users of .h-card.p-lcoation right now probably wouldn't expect that that alone implies a checkin
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aaronpk i've been publishing notes with venues lots of the time, and they certainly aren't checkins
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aaronpk most recent: https://aaronparecki.com/notes/2014/11/08/1/
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snarfed tantek: evidently both aaronpk's and barnabywalters's on https://snarfed.org/checkin_research.txt are not checkinns
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tantek aaronpk - I'd say they're implicit checkins at a minimum
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snarfed heh ok. debating implicit vs explicit is where i back away slowly :P
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aaronpk trying to find a counterexample but it may take some digging. i'm looking for the example where I post a photo the day after I take it
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aaronpk here: https://aaronparecki.com/notes/2014/07/04/2/indiewebcamp-latergram
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tantek snarfed - no it's ok. aaronpk's example is a photo due to the u-photo
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tantek that test is before the " (p-location venue implies checkin)"
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snarfed tantek: sure, but that's just a happy accident
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tantek snarfed: not an accident. that was a deliberate ordering on my part.
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aaronpk posted july 4, but the photo was taken June 29
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tantek in the post-type-impliedn algorithm
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kylewm checkins can't have photos?
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aaronpk so I was certainly not checking in to ground kontrol when I posted that on the 4th
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snarfed tantek: i mean, people could still post with p-location and not intend it as an explicit checkin
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aaronpk (also I've definitely attached a photo to checkins)
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snarfed heh yes, also what kylewm said
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tantek kylewm: they can - however, a u-photo right now primarily implies a *photo* post, not a checkin
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snarfed failed to back away slowly
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snarfed tries again
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tantek the implied post type algorithm is evolving based on what people publish and what they (seem) to imply by it
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aaronpk biab
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tantek regardless, snarfed, it's a good question - "how should a check-in be marked up?"
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tantek I have the additional problem with many of my checkins that they are "published" after the time of the actual checkin (nevermind the photo aspect)
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tantek "postsq" or "postsquare" we call them
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snarfed latersquares
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tantek yes
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tantek If I were publishing checkins I'd want a *separate* datetime property for the time of checkin
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tantek (optional of course, with the dt-published being the default implied time of the checkin)
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tantek does anyone understand this? https://twitter.com/DeadSuperHero/status/533308053509394432
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@DeadSuperHero @IndieHosters Understood, but there is such a significant overlap between the two. Federation enables IndieWeb capabilities further. (twitter.com/_/status/533308053509394432)
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kylewm seems like he's talking about indepdent web publishing, not IndieWeb stuff like webmention
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@getgemsorg RT @BlockAccess: @koinify: Gems Token Sale Details & Update | http://koinify.com/blog/gems-token-sale-details-update @getgemsorg #TakingBackSocial #OwnYourData (twitter.com/_/status/533345343136858112)
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kylewm @DeadSuperHero is saying Diaspora is the way to get federation into people's personal sites
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tantek kylewm: except that Diaspora doesn't federate with any other implementations, so it's not really federating.
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tantek kylewm: he also mentions "RedMatrix": https://twitter.com/DeadSuperHero/status/532990760896188416
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@DeadSuperHero Hey @IndieHosters, what would it take to get #Diaspora and #RedMatrix as supported packages on your platform? (twitter.com/_/status/532990760896188416)
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tantek what is RedMatrix?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "RedMatrix" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=RedMatrix
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tantek which looks like a fork or install of friendica? https://redmatrix.me
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kylewm I think it's a new project by the same person who did friendica
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tantek so are they all running Identica/statusnet?
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kylewm StatusNet : pump.io :: Friendica : RedMatrix
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kylewm nooo
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kylewm totally different
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gRegor` what is postsquare?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "postsquare" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=postsquare
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tantek kylewm: are you saying RedMatrix is running pump.io?
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tantek kylewm: from the footer of redmatrix.me: "code" https://github.com/friendica/red
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tantek reads like another single-open-source-project monoculture
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kylewm tantek: no I'm saying statusnet is related to pump.io in the same way friendica is related to redmatrix
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tantek requires everyone to install the same software: https://github.com/friendica/red/blob/master/install/INSTALL.txt ergo monoculture
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kylewm there is also "The Network"
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kylewm which I believe is the "interfederation" effort
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kylewm what you would call "federation" :)
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tantek does anyone not see the rampant irony in every "federation" project requiring you to run *their* software?
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kylewm friendica actually talks to lots of different networks
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tantek what is friendica?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "friendica" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=friendica
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tantek kylewm - that's a big claim. citations needed.
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kylewm tantek: friendica.com/features##Built-in+support+for+OStatus+federation
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kylewm they claim first-class federation with statusnet and with Diaspora
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tantek does anyone run friendica on their personal site?
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tantek what is first-class federation?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "first-class federation" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=first-class+federation
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tantek kylewm: lots of claims of federation - especially on mailing lists and readmes. Can you point to any *evidence* of actual federation happening? E.g. a post from one site/system running some software making it to another site/system running some other software, and a reply being sent back?
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kylewm "first class federation" I would define as you haev ONE account that talks to lots of different servers running different software
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kylewm and I'm not trying to sell you on Friendica, just trying to answer questions about it
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tantek kylewm: that's a reasonable start of a definition
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tantek having seen years of claims of federation but very little actual evidence / usage, I remain skeptical of any cross-system federation claims
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tantek and in particular cross-project
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tantek what is federation?
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Loqi federation in the context of the indieweb refers to services and features on indieweb sites that work directly with other indieweb sites peer-to-peer, without being bottlenecked by any kind of centralized service or silo http://indiewebcamp.com/federation
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gRegor` Friendica: but we have multiple silos! http://dir.friendica.com/siteinfo
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kylewm heh, here's somebody running redmatrix https://deadsuperhero.com/
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kylewm spoiler alert: blank
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tantek so that's why they are asking for it to be an option on Indiehosters
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gRegor` "The friendica API aims to be compatible to the StatusNet API which aims to be compatible to the Twitter API 1.0." https://github.com/friendica/friendica/wiki/Friendica-API
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gRegor` dizzying
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kylewm here's a screenshot of it logged in though: https://twitter.com/DeadSuperHero/status/530300823545606145
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@DeadSuperHero Fake #Tumblr experience is even better on #RedMatrix now. You can tumble and be #decentralized and have #privacy too. https://twitter.com/DeadSuperHero/status/530300823545606145/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/530300823545606145)
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kylewm showing posts from Diaspora in his redmatrix instance
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tantek in a screenshot on Twitter
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tantek and you wonder why I'm skeptical
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kylewm maye it was POSSEd to twitter :)
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tantek then where's the original?
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kylewm seems like it's behind a login
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tantek why is it behind a login and the POSSE copy not?
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kylewm because twitter doesn't do that?
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tantek it does - private accounts
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tantek publicly posting on Twitter is a *choice*
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tantek so pardon me if I don't believe there's some invisible original private post from which it originated.
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kylewm I reeeeally don't have a dog in this fight; I just know that friendica was the one effort that didn't seem to want purity
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tantek I don't have a dog in this fight either - I'm skeptical of all the federation claims.
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kylewm and I don't think you're wrong to be skeptical
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kylewm you said "does anyone not see the rampant irony in every "federation" project requiring you to use *their* software", and I was just saying that they didn't do that
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thedod hi
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thedod trying to deploy kylewm's redwind on a pretty much broken machine (compiled python3. twice). Getting there :)
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gRegor` Not a surprise, but API-death for Netflix: https://gigaom.com/2014/11/14/netflix-is-shutting-down-its-public-api-today/
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tantek kylewm - that's a good point. even if it's only claimed, saying you federate with other projects is incrementally better than "install our software to federate".
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tantek note to self, filter on "To better focus our efforts and to align them with the needs of our global member base" -> likely hollow rationalization for what comes next
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tantek gRegor`: that's worthy of adding to /site-deaths
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tantek what is Netflix?
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kylewm I didn't know of anybody using the Netflix API other than http://abetterqueue.com/
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Loqi http://indiewebcamp.com/Netflix
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kylewm but that's a shame, A Better Queue was a really nice service (basically just a nice looking mashup with Rotten Tomatoes)
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aaronpk so here's a funny thing about federation
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aaronpk do you think people would say that bittorrent sync is federated? it's all peer-to-peer! just run this software! ;)
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tantek perhaps we need to define levels of federation
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gregorlove.com edited /Netflix (+114) "dfn+stub" (view diff)
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bear there can be different things you can transfer in a federated system, but federation itself has only one meaning - the ability to send messages between different networks
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bear see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federation_(information_technology)
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herbsmn I'm pretty sure the government invented federation. I mean, it's right in the name! FEDeration!
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gregorlove.com edited /site-deaths (+483) "/* 2014 */ Netflix API" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /site-deaths (+6) "/* 2014 */ bold formatting" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /site-deaths (+2) "/* 2014 */ bold formatting" (view diff)
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tantek see here for my attempt at defining federation *during* the social web wg f2f last month: http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2014-10-28#t1414517694124
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tantek hmm - looks like actually http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2014-10-28#t1414517557735
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gRegor` Wonder if we need a "near miss" section of site-deaths
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tantek at risk?
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tantek well there's a bunch in the upcoming section
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gRegor` mlkshk.com announced closure and seemed pretty serious, but ended up changing their mind: http://mlkshk.typepad.com/mlkshk/
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gRegor` "What if…? We appreciate the passion the users have for the site but there really is no other option than this. We explored many ideas for making more money but nothing worked for us." http://mlkshk.typepad.com/mlkshk/2014/04/goodbye.html
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tantek gRegor`: that's probably better captured on the mlkshk page
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gRegor` ok
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tantek what is MLKSHK?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "MLKSHK" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=MLKSHK
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gregorlove.com created /mlkshk (+117) "stub" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /site-deaths () "(-991) /* Upcoming */ moving mlkshk" (view diff)
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tantek !tell snarfed are you thinking of implementing checkin posts for yourself? Perhaps add that to an Itches section on your User: page? http://indiewebcamp.com/User:Snarfed.org
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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gregorlove.com edited /mlkshk (+1053) "/* Site Death */" (view diff)
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snarfed tantek: probably not implementing, but i may compose them manually occasionally
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Loqi snarfed: tantek left you a message 3 minutes ago: are you thinking of implementing checkin posts for yourself? Perhaps add that to an Itches section on your User: page? http://indiewebcamp.com/User:Snarfed.org
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thedod Hello again. An "etiquete" question: can I install my redwind as /indie (and add some microformat hints at /)? Or should my indiewebcamp presence be proudly displayed at /?
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tantek you can install and run whatever software you want in whatever URL structure you want ;)
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thedod cool.
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tantek it is likely that people will refer to your personal domain as your indieweb presence
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tantek those are two separate statements :)
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thedod now the question is whether I'll bump into tech problems, but that's minor :)
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tantek you may wish to consider http://indiewebcamp.com/URL_design
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thedod looks. better now than later
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kylewm thedod: it will probably take some work to get it to run outside of /
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thedod Maybe I've toyed with having a tahoe-lafs cloud as my / for long enough
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tantek what is a tahoe-lafs cloud?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "tahoe-lafs cloud" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=tahoe-lafs+cloud
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thedod it lets you store data on a 1 or more hosts you don't necessarily trust, so that they can't tell what's there, and also they're redundant (even if they inject false data, you can recover)
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thedod today there are many services claiming they're "like dropbox but really secure"
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thedod this is a decade old project for banks who want backup. not a toy
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thedod and smart and good people
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thedod e.g. zooko (from zooko's triangle)
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thedod https://tahoe-lafs.org
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thedod now it's handy to have as a filesystem (backup, sharing, etc.), and I loved the trick that they did a plugin to tiddlywiki that lets you update to the cloud (if you run the client and do this on localhost), but maybe it jumped the shark
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thedod Iet's try redwind as my /
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thedod 5am here, night is young. let's hope the nginx is willing
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kylewm good luck!
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thedod bows and exits into a closet
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aaronparecki.com created /2014/Cambridge/expenses (+406) "add breakfast receipt" (view diff)
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thedod kylewm, first time I deploy with uwsgi and I wonder: config.py gets stuff from env. where do I make these env declarations in a uwsgi+nginx environment?
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thedod I also need to declare the virtualenv to run the "right" python
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thedod (compiled it 4 times today it would *better* be the right one)
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thedod ah. http://uwsgi-docs.readthedocs.org/en/latest/WSGIquickstart.html#virtualenvs
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rascul.io edited /User:Rascul.io/ssl (-6) "/* Nginx Configuration */ update cipher list to support IE 8 / XP as per ssllabs" (view diff)
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rascul.io edited /User:Rascul.io/ssl (+6) "/* Nginx Configuration */ fix my broken wiki markup" (view diff)
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rascul.io edited /User:Rascul.io/ssl (+200) "/* Host Specific Configuration */ spdy: announce support and compress headers" (view diff)