#indiewebcamp 2014-11-19

2014-11-19 UTC
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GWG
Linode has told me they think I am subject to an XML-RPC vulnerability and should shut it off.
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GWG
It seems a shame.
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aaronpk
wordpress?
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GWG
aaronpk: Yes.
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GWG
I can't turn it off. It would turn off Webmentions
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aaronpk
you're handling webmentions via xmlrpc?
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GWG
aaronpk: No. But pfefferle's webmention plugin hooks into the ping functionality
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kylewm
GWG: you have to turn pingbacks on in order to receive webmentions, right?
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kylewm
feel like I've seen people perplexed by that
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aaronpk
maybe you could just delete the xmlrpc.php file?
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tantek
GWG - can you provide a citation for the vulnerability?
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tantek
what is XML-RPC?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "XML-RPC" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=XML-RPC
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tantek
^^^ perhaps stub that page with a citation to the vulnerability?
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GWG
The vulnerability is to DDOS. Wouldn't Webmention also be vulnerable to that?
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GWG
kylewm: correct.
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aaronpk
are they talking about a pingback-specific issue?
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GWG
aaronpk: Linode has no data on it
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GWG
"We have received a report of malicious activity originating from your Linode. It's likely that your Linode is being used to pass on pingbacks via the XML RPC Wordpress exploit."
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GWG
I asked if they had additional details...they said no.
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GWG
So...they have a report, but can't tell me where it came from
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GWG
Or what it said
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aaronpk
i got one of those once about my mail server
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aaronpk
email--
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Loqi
email has -14 karma
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GWG
WordPress took out the button to disable XML-RPC
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GWG
My solution was to rate limit it
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GWG
Requests for XML RPC are limited.
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kylewm
seems like enabling pingbacks is a big ask for a lot of wordpress users
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GWG
kylewm: I'm not sure it is strictly necessary. I may talk to pfefferle about options.
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GWG
It uses the settings to accept pings.
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@AaronGustafson
I wrote a little about my process for adding #webmentions to @jekyllrb/#Octopress sites: http://aaron-gustafson.com/notebook/2014/enabling-webmentions-in-jekyll/ #indieweb
(twtr.io/t4TMbLvv1L)
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@StandardsSherpa
RT @AaronGustafson: I wrote a little about my process for adding #webmentions to @jekyllrb/#Octopress sites: http://aaron-gustafson.com/notebook/2014/enabling-webmentions-in-jekyll/ #indiew…
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bret
https://www.flickr.com/photos/psd/2918889380/sizes/o/ Is the posse on the lion thing in the upper left hand corner the same POSSE as indieweb?
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tantek
whoa bret - nice find. but AFAIK no relation.
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bret
notice the gates out of hell are "publishers of permalinks" lol
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bret
oauth, openid and microformats are near the shoulders of giants, just above the lost cave of webdav
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kylewm
gotta be the same POSSE doesn't it
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kylewm
sorry it's from 2008???
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tantek
first thing I did was check the date ;)
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kylewm
the posse was foretold
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bret
behold, the holy prophetic illustration!
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@TheRealDod
RT @AaronGustafson: I wrote a little about my process for adding #webmentions to @jekyllrb/#Octopress sites: http://aaron-gustafson.com/notebook/2014/enabling-webmentions-in-jekyll/ #indiew…
(twtr.io/t4VfXQN1Eg)
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@beckenhaub
RT @AaronGustafson: I wrote a little about my process for adding #webmentions to @jekyllrb/#Octopress sites: http://aaron-gustafson.com/notebook/2014/enabling-webmentions-in-jekyll/ #indiew…
(twtr.io/t4WE3DugGo)
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snarfed
hi aaronpk!
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snarfed
i just noticed webmention.io doesn't handle u-url
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snarfed
i just noticed webmention.io doesn't handle u-url
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snarfed
want me to file an issue?
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kylewm
snarfed++ good catch
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Loqi
snarfed has 53 karma
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tantek
this is either additional incentive (or counter-incentive) to geo tag your (POSSE)'d tweets: https://twitter.com/t/status/534878164808646656
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@t
#gigaomlive: fascinating @TwitterData visualizations. geo-tagging your (POSSE) tweets = included in more graphics. (ttk.me t4ZC2)
(twtr.io/t4XaNE01qw)
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tantek
even just latlong
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tantek
what is geo-tagging?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "geo-tagging" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=geo-tagging
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@williamvdodson
RT @AaronGustafson: I wrote a little about my process for adding #webmentions to @jekyllrb/#Octopress sites: http://aaron-gustafson.com/notebook/2014/enabling-webmentions-in-jekyll/ #indiew…
(twtr.io/t4XngcW8zj)
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tantek
it's making me consider per-note geo-tagging
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tantek
what is location?
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Loqi
location is a key aspect of checkin and event posts http://indiewebcamp.com/location
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tantek
that's not a great dfn for location
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GWG
tantek: You available about that thing from earlier?
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tantek
not really unless you have a quick question
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GWG
It can wait.
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tantek
can you produce a URL for it?
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GWG
tantek: I added something to private posts.
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tantek
cool!
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GWG
But this is in need of more development
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GWG
I may start some suggestions. Not sure what has been done before.
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tantek.com
edited /Falcon (+1064) "/* Itches */ geo-taged notes"
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@AaronGustafson
@schnarfed @sil @adamprocter webmentions.io pulls from Bridgy ;-)
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@sil
@adamprocter @AaronGustafson I need to hat up a bit on webmentions first, mind, especially since I must do penance for inventing pingback ;)
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mlncn-agaric
https://thegrid.io/#9498 has some indiewebcamp-ish talking points: "stop building Zuckerberg's site and build your own" — but presumably not any implementation of standards like webmention. My co-worker-owner at Agaric is acquainted with one of the people involved — and there's always twitter — if people think they should be introduced to doing it right
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@adactioLinks
Enabling Webmentions in Jekyll, From the Notebook of Aaron Gustafson http://aaron-gustafson.com/notebook/2014/enabling-webmentions-in-jekyll/
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gRegor`
snarfed: Did anything change recently with bridy's TLS? Was running into internal errors trying to publish and realized it's bc curl wasn't verifying the cert. Maybe (probably) something changed on my server, but it was working for a while without problems.
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gRegor`
Adding SSL_VERIFYPEER: false makes it work, of course. Just curious why it worked before at all. I thought most PHP cURL installs didn't handle any certs unless you pointed it to a local cert file
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snarfed
gRegor`: hey, thanks for the nudge. yeah, i renewed the cert
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snarfed
i think i'm seeing the same problem with php clients
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snarfed
i thought the new cert was fine, but i guess maybe not. i'll debug
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snarfed
gRegor`: in the meantime, if you do need to verify a cert, brid-gy.appspot.com will work
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gRegor`
cert verification isn't a big concern for me with bridgy at the moment
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snarfed
gRegor`: understood. my wordpress stopped working w/bridgy publish due to this too, and i didn't know why until now. thanks for answering that riddle for me :P
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@techlifeweb
Screenshots for the @withknown team to help explain my Facebook connection problem #indieweb http://techlifeweb.com/social/?p=606
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snarfed
!tell gRegor` bridgy ssl cert is fixed. thanks again for the report!
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@aaronpk
@sil haha! Webmention is just pingback w/o XMLRPC. You might be interested in Vouch tho: http://indiewebcamp.com/vouch (http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2014/11/18/2/webmention)
(twtr.io/t4z7zjw0zj)
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aaronpk
sad that meatspace doesn't have permalinks
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GWG
aaronpk: Oh? What do you want to bookmark?
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tantek.com
edited /Falcon (+358) "/* Geo-tagged Notes */ reduce implementation to apparent minimum, note possible improvements"
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tantek.com
edited /Falcon (+80) "/* Geo-tagged Notes */ cite motivation"
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@xtof_fr
La 1ère #startup #indieweb : À quoi çá ressemble de bosser chez @withknown par @erinjo et @benwerd ? > http://stream.withknown.com/2014/were-the-known-team-and-this-is-how-we-work
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@GuidoMattioni
@sundancelabs A sweet novel set in #SavannahGA by an #Italian #IndieAuth MulticulturalFictionWin2013 GlobalEBookAwds http://amzn.to/11i4Ltn
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michielbdejong
does anybody know how to run Known behind an ssl offloader? It seems to require some special configuration.
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tantek.com
edited /User:Tantek.com (+194) "/* working on */ capture some wikifying I need to do"
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notizblog.org
edited /WordPress (+158) "added "Webmentions for Comments" plugin"
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rime1
using javascript library for a slideshow that zooms and pans. it works perfectly when i test it but after uploading it, the slideshow works but the zooming and panning does not. it is just static images. anyone know why?
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@sonething_news
The Web’s Not Dead Yet, As Long As These Indies Abide. http://t.co/2gJ5zRVZX6. #Business #Ello #Facebook #IndieWeb
(twtr.io/t5X5ahezhw)
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@sonething_news
The Web’s Not Dead Yet, As Long As These Indies Abide. http://t.co/kPX20vZp1p. #AnilDash #Business #Ello #Facebook #IndieWeb #ThinkUp
(twtr.io/t5X5kU7N1d)
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@cognosteca
RT @AaronGustafson: I wrote a little about my process for adding #webmentions to @jekyllrb/#Octopress sites: http://aaron-gustafson.com/notebook/2014/enabling-webmentions-in-jekyll/ #indiew…
(twtr.io/t5XxtnkKdf)
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@thels6
My #Octopress blog is now up to IndieMark Level 1 :) Maybe you should try to support it too? #indieweb
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Carol_
hi
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Carol_
anybody here?
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Erkan_Yilmaz
Carol_ why?
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Carol_
are you familiar with tethering from mobile phone?
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Carol_
I have problem windows started saying since last Sunday dns server not reposting
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Carol_
can fix it
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Carol_
any help?
Pierre-O, michielbdejong, michielbdejong1, friedcell, Garbee, Sebastien-L and andrunix joined the channel
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@PulsePointBuzz
Sammy Austin from MoneySuperMarket presents @ACI_RTASummit how they embraced programmatic in-house to #ownyourdata #RTALondon
(twtr.io/t5gT1v9hKj)
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@ACI_RTASummit
RT @PulsePointBuzz: Sammy Austin from MoneySuperMarket presents @ACI_RTASummit how they embraced programmatic in-house to #ownyourdata #RTA…
(twtr.io/t5h7apS45L)
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thedod_
Erkan_Yilmaz, fancy meeting you here :)
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thedod_
So far I got no webmentions. Wonder whether it's a technical or popularity problem :)
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Erkan_Yilmaz
hi thedod_ :-)
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thedod_
I'm quite new at this indie business, so not sure the thing works
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jonnybarnes
whats the difference between `for (i = 0; i < divs.length; ++i)` and `for (i = 0; i < divs.length; i++)`?
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thedod_
there isn't any, because there's no expression like f(++i) that actually uses the value
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thedod_
f(++i) gets 1 more than f(i++)
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jenmontes.com
edited /diversity (+336) "/* See also */ Added links to diversity reports for Google, Facebook, Apple, and Microsoft"
(view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme
thedod_ I tried to send you a webmention
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ben_thatmustbeme
do you accept webmentions or only through that form?
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jonnybarnes
well i++ seems to work
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thedod_
I'm supposed to accept them
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jonnybarnes
its just I saw ++i on a css-tricks snippet
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thedod_
I'll check the logs
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thedod_
thanks, ben_thatmust
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ben_thatmustbeme
jonnybarnes ++i and i++ are only different when you are using the return value
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pfefferle
GWG hey hey… have you tried the comment_class changes I commited yesterday?
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ben_thatmustbeme
now a = 1, i = 2
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jonnybarnes
ahhhh, thanks ben_thatmustbeme
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ben_thatmustbeme
and and I would both increment in that second one
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ben_thatmustbeme
s/and and I/a and i/
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Loqi
ben_thatmustbeme meant to say: a and i would both increment in that second one
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ben_thatmustbeme
also, thedod_ it worked on my end in so far that you went in to my whitelist. i just found that the code to make that entry public isn't working though
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Erkan_Yilmaz
thedod_ I don't use the webmentions yet
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thedod_
Erkan_Yilmaz, I've installed kylewm's redwind (although my branches became spaghetti this weekend and I need to carefully catchup with upstream :) )
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ben_thatmustbeme
I really need to clean up the install for Postly
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ben_thatmustbeme
or rather, have an install process for it
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kylewm
thedod_: I rolled back a lot of the weird changes that I made over the weekend, so hopefully it won't be difficult to merge back up :)
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kylewm
it seems I am not handling transparency in avatars well
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GWG
Pfefferle, didn't realize you had committed. Will look.
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thedod_
I think best is if I catchup with upstream first, and only then try to debug webmentions :)
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pfefferle
GWG thanks
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thedod_
Got a backlog at work, so I'll probably get to it in the weekend
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thedod_
hey! my webmention went through \o/. There was something weird. Had to try/except something.
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thedod_
makes a bin
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thedod_
This kept failing (timeout) on my site
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ben_thatmustbeme
thedod_ it worked when i manually entered the link btw
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thedod_
(wp, supports pingback)
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ben_thatmustbeme
so the form method is good
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thedod_
but we don't have any confirmation re "normal" webmention, like if you do this on your own site
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ben_thatmustbeme
no, i should have sent that mention by the usual method, and it did not seem to go through
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kylewm
thedod_: it kind of looks like the rqworker process isn't running https://dubiousdod.org/indie/webmention/status/7697acc1-cebb-4f3a-b3e2-dfc44cbc3b6a
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kylewm
that would explain why the form method works as well
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thedod_
anyway, re that diff I sent, the URL was https://zzzen.com/hiddenid/?p=74#comment-30 so maybe the code mangled it
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thedod_
kylewm, ouch!
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thedod_
(re the status)
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kylewm
although it must be running you are able to send wm's
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thedod_
ok. I'll pull your master from scratch and work from it
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thedod_
dumps the log
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kylewm
oh, i hope you don't have to do that :/
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thedod_
kylewm, pull upstream or dump the logs? :)
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kylewm
start from scratch
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thedod_
no biggie. I was in a rush to have a working site for Sunday,
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thedod_
and got all my branches botched
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thedod_
https://github.com/thedod/redwind/network looks like the BKK skytrain map now :)
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Loqi
Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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bret
thedod_: hey.. the install link is dead here: https://dubiousdod.org
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parzzix
So, would you be more indie using known pro or hosting on a VPS? Neither is in your full control?
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tantek
good morning #indiewebcamp!
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tantek
hey thedod_ congrats on getting RedWind up & running - and congrats to kylewm on a 2nd deployment of RedWind!
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tantek
thedod_++
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Loqi
thedod has 2 karma
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tantek
kylewm++
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Loqi
parzzix: kylewm left you a message on 10/21 at 1:31pm: as much as I would probably enjoy hearing the Bad Voltage guys talk indieweb, the prospect kind of terrifies me :)
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Loqi
kylewm has 85 karma
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tantek
RedWind++
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Loqi
dude
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kylewm
parzzix: re the above, @sil tweeted about adding webmentions to his Pelican based blog *yesterday*, very exciting
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parzzix
kylewm: that is outstanding
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kylewm
tantek: thank you! all credit to thedod_, he's done a lot to generalize and 'dekyleify' it
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kylewm
parzzix: and to the earlier question, I'd say if you own the domain name and the content, we don't worry too much about who is running the server :)
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parzzix
gotcha kylewm
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parzzix
So as long as known allows us access to our content..or a way to retrieve it..they really are about the same.
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tantek
kylewm: indeed, the 2nd deployment of any open source project is a big accomplishment.
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tantek
RedWind++
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tantek
what is Bad Voltage?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "Bad Voltage" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Bad+Voltage
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Loqi
RedWind has 1 karma
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parzzix
tantek: a podcast
caseorganic joined the channel
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pdurbin
tantek: do you listen to it?
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tantek
no I rarely listen to podcasts.
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pdurbin
it's ok
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pdurbin
not my favorite
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kylewm
kind of a lot of dudes making fun of each other
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pdurbin
I'd listen to an indieweb podcast.
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@joelgaines
Why does someone else get to own and control your medical information? #ownyourdata ^jg
(twtr.io/t5xEJZmGfZ)
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@LifeHealthDiary
Why does someone else get to own and control your medical information? #ownyourdata ^jg
(twtr.io/t5xEL60RjY)
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GWG
Did someone say Indiewebcamp podcast?
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parzzix
It's pretty entertaining...makes me chuckle a bit
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parzzix
bad voltage that is
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tantek
parzzix: perhaps start a wiki page for it if you think it has some relevance to the indieweb?
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tantek
per Loqi above ^^^
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Loqi
is done
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tantek
RedWind++
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tantek
dang, apparently so.
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ben_thatmustbeme
hey tantek, now that you aren't in a conf call. Wanted to hear your thoughts on some way to specify data to intended to be private (for your eyes only, or something)
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ben_thatmustbeme
or perhaps who it is intended for
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tantek
no I'm on CSSWG telcon now ;)
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tantek
ben_thatmustbeme: do you have a statement of the issue/question captured on a wiki page e.g. as part of a #Issues section or #FAQ section?
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tantek
perhaps start there?
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GWG
ben_thatmustbeme.. our time will come.
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tantek
so you can simply reference that URL instead of a restating the problem in IRC?
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gRegor`
Morning-ish, #indiewebcamp!
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Loqi
gRegor`: snarfed left you a message 11 hours, 29 minutes ago: bridgy ssl cert is fixed. thanks again for the report!
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ben_thatmustbeme
actually, there is a section, but i'll update with other points
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tantek
ben_thatmustbeme: exactly! or split into multiple smaller questions/issues even!
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GWG
Pfefferle, looked at the commit on my phone. Looks good, will deploy
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pfefferle
GWG I will update the directory versions any time soon
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GWG
ben_thatmustbeme, private posts page?
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GWG
Pfefferle, I work from the repository. Also I may have more pull requests
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ben.thatmustbe.me
edited /indieweb-messaging (+410) "Started issues section"
(view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme
indiewebcamp.com/private_posts#Partial_Page_Privacy
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ben_thatmustbeme
though they kind of hit toward the same issue, i think those two cases are very different
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ben_thatmustbeme
but could be solved in the same way
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tantek
what is private messaging?
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tantek
ben_thatmustbeme: ^^^ hmm - fix dfn maybe?
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tantek
what is private?
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Loqi
private posts refer to posts or portions of posts which are private to either the author or to a limited audience chosen by the author http://indiewebcamp.com/private
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tantek
and linkify that too? ^^^
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reedstrm
jonnybarnes: is that a clever way to say you think privacy can only be protected via encryption?
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jonnybarnes
I find PGP difficult to use, so I found it a little funny
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@gRegorLove
@pitchdesign We won't be at Native Foods, but will you be able to make it to Homebrew Website Club tonight? :] http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-11-19-homebrew-website-club
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gRegor`
Hah. Le sigh.
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gRegor`
Venue fell through for HWC tonight.
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GWG
gRegor: I have space in my venue
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gRegor`
. . .
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gRegor`
What is TARDIS?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "TARDIS" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=TARDIS
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gregorlove.com
edited /events/2014-11-19-homebrew-website-club (+12) "/* Where */ Chicago venue fell through; TBD"
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thedod_
kylewm, seems like the new code wants different db schema (like post.location). How do I migrate a "legacy" db? :)
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tantek
backs away slowly.
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kylewm
thedod_: run python migrations/20141111-fold-up-locations.py
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thedod_
thanks
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tantek
lalalala I'm not listening lalalala
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thedod_
kylewm, pymysql.err.ProgrammingError: (1146, "Table 'redwind1.Location' doesn't exist")
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aaronpk
can I like that like?
#
ben.thatmustbe.me
edited /private_messaging (-5) "redirect to private_posts instead of indie-messaging"
(view diff)
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thedod_
BTW, we're doing all this on my mysql at home. Later on, I need to do this on *sqlite* on the live site (don't ask)
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aaronpk
backs away slowly
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tantek
quits and restarts IRC client to clear scrollback.
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tantek
nothing like fresh clean empty scrollback :)
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@cmdln
The Web’s Not Dead Yet, As Long As These Indies Abide http://www.wired.com/2014/11/webs-dead-yet-long-indies-abide/ via @WIRED // the @indiewebcamp folks certainly give me hope
(twtr.io/t65Hwf6UZ4)
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tantek
ok that's not bad: The “indie web” is a loose concept more or less centered on the idea that the internet should mean flatter, less centralized, more inclusive forms of participation, not new hierarchies.
#
tantek
do any of the sites mentioned support *any* aspect IndieWeb? ThinkUp, The Toast, MLKSHK, Metafilter, NewsBlur?
#
tantek
what is ThinkUp?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "ThinkUp" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=ThinkUp
#
tantek
what is The Toast?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "The Toast" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=The+Toast
#
tantek
what is MLKSHK?
#
Loqi
mlkshk is an image sharing silo http://indiewebcamp.com/mlkshk
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tantek
what is Metafilter?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "Metafilter" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Metafilter
#
tantek
what is NewsBlur?
#
Loqi
Newsblur is a traditional feed reader that aimed to replicate and replace Google Reader http://indiewebcamp.com/newsblur
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tantek
does that article merit a response?
#
ben_thatmustbeme
hmm, so i'm trying to update indieweb-messaging to the latest protocol, but honestly, I can't seem to find anywhere that the protocol flow itself for indieauth
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aaronpk
it's not actually written as a complete spec yet, but I documented several different use cases: http://indiewebcamp.com/login-brainstorming
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tantek
should we perhaps accept a looser definition for "indie web" the way the WIRED article defines it? (essentially a semi-obvious generic use of both the adjective "indie" and the noun "web") and then a more specific dfn for "IndieWeb" as in relating specifically to this community?
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aaronpk
that sounds reasonable
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ben_thatmustbeme
i think Quill's setup was the only way i would have been able to build it
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tantek
upside is, then "indie web" includes more things, people, efforts, however loosely aligned (seems like a good thing, bigger tent and all)
#
tantek
and perhaps provides a stream of folks to recruit to actually ownyourdata and other /principles
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aaronpk
ben_thatmustbeme: specs are hard. let's go build stuff.
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tantek
plus popularizing "indie web" only sends people our way - since that's what Google shows for "indie web"
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tantek
aaronpk, indeed, specs *are* hard, which is why I often get stuck writing them more than coding :/
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tantek
re: Google results: https://www.google.com/search?q=indie+web first page is pretty much all about indiewebcamp, except for the "in the news" box which is ephemeral anyway.
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tantek
what is the indie web?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "the indie web" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=the+indie+web
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tantek
aaronpk: does it make sense for Loqi to include the leading "the" in such queries? Or should Loqi drop the leading "the" article the way it drops the leading "a" or "an" article?
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Loqi
grins profusely
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tantek
^^^ clearly Loqi thinks I have a point.
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aaronpk
yeah I think "the" should be removed as well
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aaronpk
what is the indie web?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "indie web" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=indie+web
#
Loqi
giggles
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tantek
what is a business-model?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "business-model" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=business-model
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ben.thatmustbe.me
edited /indieweb-messaging (+130) "some quick updates to page"
(view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme
aaronpk, soo on my todo list, document something of a spec for how indieauth works right now at least. then rewrite indieauth.com with a competitor :P
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aaronpk
excellent
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tantek.com
edited /business-models (+259) "dfn, Site Membership"
(view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme
s/competitor/alternative/
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Loqi
ben_thatmustbeme meant to say: aaronpk, soo on my todo list, document something of a spec for how indieauth works right now at least. then rewrite indieauth.com with a alternative :P
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aaronpk
remember indieauth.com has two roles, so you can actually replicate just one of the roles and still have a totally viable service
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tantek
aaronpk, sounds like indieauth.com needs a roles diagram ;)
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aaronpk
i started to split that out here http://indiewebcamp.com/indieauth.com
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tantek
wow the aggregators section in business-models looks dumb - as in, it just lists a bunch of free things
#
tantek
what am I missing?
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aaronpk
three of the things listed there are public companies
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aaronpk
just because a business does not charge end users does not mean it's not a business
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tantek
yeah - and their business is advertising, not aggregating, which we specifically say to avoid in #Avoiding
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ben_thatmustbeme
aaronpke, doesn't it sort of have a 3rd role as token generator/validator?
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tantek
business-models should be clustered by how they make their money, not by what they are
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tantek
what is their income stream?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "their income stream" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=their+income+stream
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aaronpk
hm, well I think having them grouped by what they are is useful, what page would that be better on then?
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tantek
every other page? like /silos ?
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thedod_
kylewm, so what do I do with that migration? it also cries about the location table being missing (and I don't see such a thing at models.py). I'm lost
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tantek
the point of business models page are the *business models*
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aaronpk
a lot of the sections actually have full pages there anyway
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aaronpk
dns, web hosting, aggregators, search,
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tantek
aggregators is only a business model in as much as people *pay* for aggregation
#
tantek
otherwise it is not a business model
#
tantek
or rather, advertising is a business model
#
tantek
we should be very upfront about that sort of thing on the business models page
#
aaronpk
maybe we can reorganize the page based on models, and have a short section at the bottom that links to the main pages like dns, hosting, etc
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Loqi
definitely
#
tantek
how do the companies/services listed actually make money?
#
tantek
in that list aaronpk, dns, web hosting are already business models
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tantek
the only problem is how the "free" stuff (impled ad revenue) stuff snuck in
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aaronpk
dns and web hosting are the same model. the model is charging website owners for services
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tantek
they're different services, therefore different models
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tantek
they even charge differently (typically annually vs. monthly)
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aaronpk
no, the model is the relationship between payer and payee, and they're the same
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tantek
no, it's not useful to just generalize everything as "paid service"
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tantek
the model is the combination of what you build / what service you offer *and* how people pay for it
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tantek
makes much more sense from page usability perspective to list "things you can build and charge for"
#
tantek
regardless of whether that charge is one-time, monthly, annual etc.
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aaronpk
charging people money is only one model
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tantek
charging people money is the definition of business
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aaronpk
yes but the people you're charging aren't always the people who buy domains
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tantek
if you're not charging people money, you're doing community/charity/hobby work
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ben_thatmustbeme
donation based business models exist that doesn't involve 'Charging people money'
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tantek
doesn't matter *who* you're charging
#
tantek
we're on the building side
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tantek
doesn't matter if the people you're charging don't have their own domains
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tantek
the point of business models is, how does an indie web project/effort/service *make money*, not, "how do I charge indieweb people money"
#
tantek
(or rather, the latter is a strict subset at best)
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aaronpk
okay, so i'm not clear on why aggregators can't be in the list then
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tantek
*aggregators* can (I'm about to add an example) but NONE of the current aggregators listed qualify
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tantek
because NONE of them charge for their service or aggregation
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aaronpk
okay. then they can be grouped under a subheader indicating as such
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tantek
existing aggregator examples DO NOT have an aggregator business model. they ALL have an *advertising* business model
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ben_thatmustbeme
are any of them ad supported
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tantek
yes they can be grouped under #Avoid
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ben_thatmustbeme
well thats still a business model
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ben_thatmustbeme
its just ad-supported business model
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aaronpk
how about "Ad-Supported" as a header instead of "Avoid", let people make their own judgment on whether they want to do that
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tantek.com
edited /business-models () "(-512) /* Aggregators */ remove free examples (not aggregator business model), and replace with NewsBlur which does charge"
(view diff)
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aaronpk
aw but newsblur is a reader, not an aggregator
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tantek
what is an aggregator?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "aggregator" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=aggregator
#
tantek
what is an agregator?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "agregator" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=agregator
#
tantek
what are aggregators?
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Loqi
A feed reader is an application (local or on the web, like the defunkt Google Reader) that subscribes to feeds (typically legacy Atom & RSS) and presents them in an interface for reading http://indiewebcamp.com/aggregators
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tantek
there we go
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tantek
aaronpk, care to define the difference?
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tantek
common usage equates the two
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aaronpk
an aggregator has its own public URLs for posts, a feed reader is private to the user
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tantek
wat? never heard that definition before or even the idea of distinction!
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aaronpk
http://news.indiewebcamp.com is an aggregator because there is no original content on the site
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tantek
is that like a planet?
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aaronpk
http://news.indiewebcamp.com has very few original posts compared to links from other places http://news.indiewebcamp.com/
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tantek
what is a planet?
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aaronpk
a planet is a perfect exmaple of an aggregator
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tantek
except that in common discussions about blogs etc., if you say "aggregator" people hear "feed reader"
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aaronpk
really?
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aaronpk
i don't
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aaronpk
HA apparently I was supposed to set up planet.indiewebcamp.com last year
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aaronpk
wikipedia makes no distinction on whether the aggregated content should be public or private https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/News_aggregator
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tantek
alright I'm fine with using "Feed Reader" to label RSS readers etc. instead of aggregator
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bret
i think a timeline would work better than a table there
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bret
feed reader is appropriate and is independent of the feed type
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tantek
bret - "feed reader" does assume/imply *separate feed URL* and *separate reader app from posting*
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tantek
so it's kind of a dead end
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bret
hrm yeah good point
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tantek
so yes, let's continue to refer to that old model as "feed readers", because they deserve that framing
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aaronpk
is it just me or does anyone else find the distinction between public URLs vs private readers useful?
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bret
at the time, most feed readers have always had some kind of share/response button
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bret
old feed readers
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bret
they tended to be really limited actions though
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tantek
bret - examples?
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tantek.com
edited /business-models (+1) "/* Aggregators */ actually only feed readers. no known aggregator business models."
(view diff)
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bret
google reader had a starred feed iirc
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bret
IE when you stared something, it generated a web page with those starred items and their content
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bret
feedbin has a star atom feed as well
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bret
most all of the new feed readers have a laundry list of services you can post an item to
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aaronpk
nascar buttons?
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bret
aaronpk: basically, but you only turn on the ones you want
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bret
example of pinboard bookmarking
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gRegor`
tantek: Personally I've always preferred referring to this community as the IndieWebCamp community, and indieweb as a broader, generic term (not capitalized)
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bret
example of share menu
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gRegor`
bret: Yeah, gReader had a star feed
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tantek.com
edited /business-models (+1091) "move some to hypothetical"
(view diff)
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kylewm
thedod_: hey sorry it's giving you problems. the previous version had a location table with latitude, longitude, and a bunch of fields for geocoding (region, county, locality) ... i converted that to a json string and just stuck it in each individual post and venue that has location data associated with it
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tantek
what is NewsBlur?
#
Loqi
Newsblur is a traditional feed reader that aimed to replicate and replace Google Reader http://indiewebcamp.com/newsblur
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tantek
bret ^^ add to
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tantek
what is Feedbin?
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Loqi
Feedbin is a traditional feed reader similar to Google Reader, but offers a much improved and simplified interface compared to Reader http://indiewebcamp.com/feedbin
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tantek
bret and /feedbin too
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bret
ack how do I add a max width
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bret
to a file
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gregorlove.com
created /ThinkUp (+146) "stub"
(view diff)
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tantek
bret - see some of the /hwc pages
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tantek
for how I embedded the images with max-width
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GWG
Caught up
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aaronparecki.com
created /help (+34) "r"
(view diff)
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tantek
what is ThinkUp?
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Loqi
ThinkUp is a silo that analyzes activity on social networks like Facebook and Twitter http://indiewebcamp.com/ThinkUp
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tantek
gRegor`: is ThinkUp really a silo? or is it more of a service that monitors your silo accounts for you?
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gRegor`
quoting self: It's a silo for the analytics data, afaik
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tantek
what do you "post" to ThinkUp that then gets stored there?
#
tantek
what is a silo?
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Loqi
A silo, or web content hosting silo, in the context of the IndieWeb, is a centralized web site typically owned by a for-profit corporation that stakes some claim to content contributed to it and restricts access in some way (has walls) http://indiewebcamp.com/silo
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gRegor`
> I'm a little unclear, actually. I know it started as an open source project you installed on your own site. I did ages ago. They've changed into a paid service model, it appears, though the code is still on GH
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tantek
perhaps capture that history in a summary in the definition
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aaronpk
I don't think it counts as a silo because the content is generated byt hat service, not contributed from outside
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GWG
tantek: To recap, you are correct that the Indieweb version of a gravatar is h-card plus URL. I want to replace gravatar in WordPress with H-Card+URL.
#
tantek
as in "ThinkUp is …, and previously was … "
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bret.io
edited /newsblur (+162) "added sharing"
(view diff)
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tantek
aaronpk - agreed, it's not a silo, it's a silo service
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aaronpk
it's just a service. it could just as easily monitor posts from your own site.
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tantek
and I have no idea what the current ThinkUp is vs. what the open source project used to be
#
tantek
it seems to keep pivoting
#
tantek
what is pivoting
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "pivoting" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=pivoting
#
mko
Regarding an IndieWeb profile photo, you could do something like Gravatar. Specifically, they use a unique hash (specifically the hash of the email address of the user). You could easily do the same with the hash of the user's email or domain. Basically, search for h-card on homepage. If there's a picture available in the h-card, use it. If there's not, check for email and hash it and use your own service (or Gravatar if you like their placeholders).
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mko
Then if there's not an email, hash their domain and force the default using the "f=y" so you don't accidentally get someone else's photo.
#
tantek
what is a pivot
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "pivot" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=pivot
#
aaronpk
i think i signed up for the free 14-day trial, logged in once, then forgot to check it again later before my trial was up
#
mko
Wait. ThinkUp costs money now?
#
tantek
mko - they pivoted ;)
#
gRegor`
mko: As a service on their site, yes.
#
GWG
mko: I think you can still host an instance.
#
mko
Oh. Gotcha.
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gRegor`
You can probably still host it. Code is on GH
#
GWG
I think the pivot is they now offer a hosted service as well as an open source project
#
mko
That makes sense.
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mko
They went the WordPress route. Good for them.
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gRegor`
I can find very little info on the site detailing installing it, though.
#
tantek
GWG - I don't think they do hosted content
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tantek
mko - nope - that's wrong
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gRegor`
checks thinkup.org
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GWG
mko: I think that is a good move.
#
tantek
wordpress.com actually *hosts* your content
#
tantek
URLs, permalinks, etc.
#
mko
tantek: I was just referring to their business model.
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GWG
tantek: Hosted content no. They are hosting your Thinkup instance, which is a statistics gathering service
#
tantek
is anyone actually blogging on thinkup.com ?
#
tantek
does anyone have thinkup installed on their own site and use that to post content to their own site?
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aaronpk
I think mko was referring just to the "open source plus paid service" aspect of wordpress
#
mko
aaronpk: yes
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gRegor`
I have an early early version on a domain. After a year of forgetting to check it, I turned off the cron for it.
#
mko
gRegor`: https://www.thinkup.com/docs/install/index.html has the full installation details. It's pretty easy.
#
gRegor`
It probably stopped working anyway
#
mko
Note: "pretty easy" for a Developer. Not for a normal person.
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gRegor`
mko: cool
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tantek
mko - thinkup is just metrics right?
#
mko
Not really. It does more than just metrics.
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tantek
that didn't seem to be the case when Gina demoed it at XOXO this year
#
tantek
I know it *used to* do more than metrics
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mko
It does things like give you diffs of profile data of your friends, bubbles up content that you wouldn't normally see, etc.
#
tantek
but now it seems more like a Twitter navel-gazing analysis tool
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aaronpk
i'd log in and screenshot it but my trial ran out
#
@AaronVanDerlip
I highly recommend this talk. @caseorganic "Rise of the IndieWeb" https://www.youtube.com/
(twtr.io/t6AhVK58QY)
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aaronpk
the screenshots on the home page are good examples tho
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bret.io
edited /feedbin (+254) "added feedbig sharing"
(view diff)
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mko
It is definitely mostly a navel-gazing thing, unless you're actually optimizing your behaviors.
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gRegor`
mko: where'd you find the docs links? Can't seem to find them anywhere
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GWG
tantek: Stats are a big business.
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mko
In the GitHub repo's "CONTRIBUTING.md"
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tantek
GWG - pehraps add stats or metrics to a new section on http://indiewebcamp.com/business-models with specific examples?
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gRegor`
Ah, gotcha
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tantek
if they truly are a "big business" ?
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mko
Interestingly, though, the docs were last updated in January of this year, which isn't very reassuring.
#
bret
i link to my gravatar from my h-card
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mko
lol, bret
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bret
cause why not
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tantek
sounds reasonable. link to the legacy from the current thing.
#
tantek
just as we use indieauth as our openid provider
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gRegor`
What is gravatar?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "gravatar" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=gravatar
#
gRegor`
What is avatar?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "avatar" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=avatar
#
tantek.com
edited /feed_reader (+1051) "dump Other Aggregators to leave for someone else to cleanup, someone thought these were interesting to list on business-models so keeping the list despite the fact that none of them actually make money for charging for aggregation"
(view diff)
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tantek
aaronpk - feel free to extract from http://indiewebcamp.com/feed_reader#Other_Aggregators and fork to a different page etc. I don't have a strong opinion on distinguishing, but it sounds like you have a clear idea - so go for it.
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gregorlove.com
edited /events/2014-11-19-homebrew-website-club (-13) "/* Where */ Updated Chicago venue"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /business-models (-22) "local ThinkUp link"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /business-models (+133) "/* Statistics and Metrics */ what ThinkUp charges for"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /business-models (-1) "/* Statistics and Metrics */ server"
(view diff)
#
parzzix
Decided to sign on to known pro, looking forward to trying it out.
#
bret
nice parzzix!
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gRegor`
There's a DeLorean in the venue for tonight's Chicago HWC
#
gRegor`
A Back to the Future one, specifically.
#
bret
parzzix: what do you like about pro over basic? ( not familiar with the differences)
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tantek.com
edited /business-models (+417) "/* Hosting Services */ silos that charge you!"
(view diff)
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tantek
what is known pro?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "known pro" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=known+pro
#
gRegor`
yo
#
GWG
gRegor`: I expect pictures
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parzzix
pro isn't out yet, but supposed ti have a bunch of new features, like static pages, different silos and the like
#
GWG
gRegor`: I meant from attendees.
#
GWG
Besides, I've already seen a parking lot full of Deloreans
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gRegor`
Only if a third person comes. :)
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mko
I love Wormhole. gRegor` -- how many people are in Chicago for HWCs?
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gRegor`
2, maybe 3.
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parzzix
bret: It will be a little cheaper than what I am paying for VPS right now also...part of my decision.
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tantek.com
edited /business-models (+446) "Bundles - documenting more real world business model examples"
(view diff)
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bret
parzzix: from a time input perspective, i bet it will be
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gRegor`
I've not been there. Looking forward to it.
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tantek.com
edited /business-models (+77) "/* Bundles */ reference WIRED article"
(view diff)
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parzzix
bret: that is another plus...I'll let ben and the gang manage the backend.
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bret
until docker can remove the complexity of VPS management, I'm personally going to stick with whatever option is the easiest to maintain
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bret
so right now, thats gh-pages, PAAS helper services, irc cloud, and feedbin
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tantek
what is docker?
#
tantek
what is Wormhole?
#
Loqi
Docker is an open platform to manage light-weight LXC based containers http://indiewebcamp.com/Docker
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "Wormhole" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Wormhole
#
tantek
what is LXC?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "LXC" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=LXC
#
gRegor`
Haha. It's a coffeeshop, tantek.
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tantek
what is PAAS?
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gRegor`
(Wormhole)
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "PAAS" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=PAAS
#
bret
wormhole is a coffeeshop in Chi iirc
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michielbdejong
lxc = linux containers
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tantek
michielbdejong: so "LXC based containers" = linux containers based containers ?
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tantek
is that like an ATM machine? ;)
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gRegor`
PIN number
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tantek
michielbdejong: perhaps fix the dfn of /Docker ?
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tantek
thanks!
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GWG
I want to see, if I get earlier hours on Wednesdays, if I can get an in-person HWC going in NYC.
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GWG
I just need to find some people
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bret
michielbdejong: do you have any getting started with docker references that you thought were good or particularly helpful?
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michielbdejong
bret: yes, let me find it
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bret
michielbdejong++
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Loqi
michielbdejong has 1 karma
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michielbdejong
here's the first Docker image for Known https://registry.hub.docker.com/u/ehdr/known/ and now that I look at it I can't really think why I felt the need to create a second one :)
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tantek
if it's worth doing once, it's worth doing twice?
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michielbdejong
yeah, it doesn't hurt to have two I guess. although this is a curse in general, when working with Docker. For WordPress, there are hundreds of images.
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michielbdejong
I guess it's just very easy to fork and customize them
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tantek
is there a tagging site for docker images?
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tantek
like an aggregator? ;)
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gRegor`
Portland having HWC tonight?
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tantek
bret ^^^ ?
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michielbdejong
yeah, it's the docker registry is the default location to pull images from. but in practice you often find more dockerfiles in github search than in the docker registry
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mko
lol
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mko
I've never tried searching Github for dockerfiles. That's a good idea.
caseorganic joined the channel
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michielbdejong
mko: yeah, there are lots. unfortunately, they're about the same quality as the ones in the registry, usually: close, but no cigar
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michielbdejong
who runs indieauth? could it be that SNI is not supported?
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aaronpk
SNI is supported because my site uses it
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aaronpk
looks like it's not checking the subject alternate name
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aaronpk
your cert is issued to blog.michielbdejong.com
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aaronpk
but I do see michielbdejong.com in your cert, so it should be matching it
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michielbdejong
yes, it's a startssl cert, you always get 1 subdomain plus the domain root
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aaronpk
huh actually it looks the same as mine (also a startssl cert)
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michielbdejong
any you do indieauth with the domain root?
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Loqi
michielbdejong meant to say: and you do indieauth with the domain root?
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aaronpk
just checked again and it had no problem fetching my site
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aaronpk
oh god
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aaronpk
it's the same problem GWG has
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aaronpk
something causes it to freak out after a "while" and if I restart the app it works fine
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aaronpk
this is one of the reasons I prefer php. way easier to avoid bizarre memory leak bugs since there isn't an "app" running the whole time.
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bear
didn't we track down an issue with one of the ssl libs recently that had bad timeout behaviour?
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aaronpk
yeah and someone filed a bug on it, I forget where that is tho
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snarfed
aaronpk: (tangent) huh, really? i don't pay that much attention to modern web dev, but i assumed that was determined by fastcgi/wsgi/etc as much as language or runtime
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aaronpk
maybe add a link to http://indiewebcamp.com/indieauth.com with a description of the problem?
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snarfed
ie wouldn't fastcgi or wsgi keep the php runtime up between requests?
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bear
I think we did - IIRC it was for a ruby lib
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aaronpk
snarfed: well in fpm mode the php runtime stays running, so it's possible to have memory leaks
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bear
php-fpm keeps them alive if it's configured to do so (or after N uses)
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bear
you can tell it to recycle the php session after N uses
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snarfed
right, ok. same with similar configs for python, etc
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snarfed
so more an architecture thing than a language
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snarfed
...thing
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bear
well... ;)
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aaronpk
i guess? good luck getting a ruby app to handle a request instantly tho
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aaronpk
without the runtime already turned on
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snarfed
sure, definitely differences in runtime startup time
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michielbdejong
aaronpk: thanks for fixing!
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aaronpk
michielbdejong: cool! I think I'm gonna add a cron job to restart the app every hour
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aaronpk
that'll hopefully fix for gwg too
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michielbdejong
If i use indieauth to log into my own WordPress site, can I then use my own indieauth instance instead of using the central indieauth.com one?
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bear
do you use php-fpm aaronpk ?
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michielbdejong
I guess it's the relying party who decides which verifier to use?
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aaronpk
bear: I've been switching everything to nginx+php-fpm lately. still have a few things hanging around on apache and mod-php
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@evaryont
@t could you explain LOCKSS? Didn't find it in indieweb wiki
(twtr.io/t6Esmxv6Jg)
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aaronpk
michielbdejong: the wordpress indieauth plugin uses indieauth.com to handle all the hard parts, so it'll always redirect you there
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bear
aaronpk - the config setting you want to enable then is pm.max_requests - the default is 0 which means an instance will stay around forever
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bear
another I like is slowlog - to watch for php sessions that are bogged down
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michielbdejong
aaronpk: right, but I could fork the plugin, change the URL, and then it would work, right?
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aaronpk
yeah sure!
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aaronpk
as long as it does the same thing that's documented here https://indieauth.com/developers
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tantek
oh FFS.
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tantek
what is LOCKSS?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "LOCKSS" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=LOCKSS
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aaronpk
what is FFS?
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bret
tantek: unfortunately i don't have much time for meetups till the quarter is over
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "FFS" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=FFS
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bret
let along organizing
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bret
alone*
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bret
I will have more time probably by mid december
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bret
pinky swear
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bret
so unless some of the other recent atendees want to get together
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bret
no portland tonight :(
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tantek.com
created /LOCKSS (+286) "dfn"
(view diff)
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snarfed
tantek++ for not replying with an lmgtfy.com link
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Loqi
tantek has 123 karma
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tantek.com
edited /LOCKSS (+37) "WP"
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snarfed
(which i probably would have)
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david.shanske.com
edited /Events () "(-514) /* Upcoming */"
(view diff)
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tantek
snarfed - they did specifically say "Didn't find it in indieweb wiki" which I thought was reasonable enough of a passive request ;)
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bret.io
created /Wormhole (+108) "Added definition for the Wormhole"
(view diff)
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tantek
uh GWG - hoping that -514 becomes a +514 in your next edit (better to edit the whole page when moving upcoming to past)
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snarfed
tantek: i dunno. googling it is a reasonable expectation too. the iwc wiki doesn't need to reproduce all information :P
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GWG
I have an HWC question
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snarfed
(but that's proably why i'm not the best first line representative. :P anyway…)
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tantek
snarfed - I assumed that before (or after?) they checked the IWC wiki they also googled it
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snarfed
tantek: evidently not
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tantek
that is, I assumed checking the IWC wiki was a proxy for more work than just googling
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tantek
the google results aren't super obvious
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tantek
for LOCKSS
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david.shanske.com
edited /Events (+516) "/* 2014 */"
(view diff)
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tantek
except obv wikipedia heh
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GWG
It says that HWC is local time.
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GWG
But I'm the only local person. So when do I show?
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snarfed
tantek: really? very first google result for lockss for me is lockss.org. acronym expansion is even in the search result. both when logged in and in incognito window
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bret.io
created /LXC (+210) "Created page with "{{ stub }} <dfn>LXC</dfn> stands for [https://linuxcontainers.org Linux Container], provides lightwheight isolated, environments linux for software stacks like LAMP and is the co...""
(view diff)
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michielbdejong.com
edited /Docker (+221) "Fix "LXC containers" phrase which is tautologic, like "ATM machines""
(view diff)
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tantek
michielbdejong++
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Loqi
woot
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michielbdejong
what is Docker
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Loqi
michielbdejong has 2 karma
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Loqi
Docker is an open platform to manage which processes should run on your server (for instance Apache, MySQL, etcetera) http://indiewebcamp.com/Docker
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bret.io
edited /LXC (+1) "english, bret.."
(view diff)
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GWG
aaronpk: At least I'm not alone anymore
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bret.io
edited /LXC (-1) "just clarifying one more time sorry."
(view diff)
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GWG
Anyone on the HWC question?
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michielbdejong.com
edited /Docker (+17) "Improve dfn of Docker"
(view diff)
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michielbdejong
what is Docker
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Loqi
Docker is a collection of tools to manage Linux containers http://indiewebcamp.com/Docker
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michielbdejong
GWG: we tried to start a HWC in Lisbon, Portugal, but didn't find many takers so far. Our timezone is UTC. :)
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bret.io
edited /Docker (+79) "Reorganized slightly"
(view diff)
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michielbdejong
Maybe we'll try to connect with the WordPress meetup, which apparently has about 30 people
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bret
michielbdejong: all it takes is two people to be a meetup. Start with a friend and advertise, you are bound to get more attendees.
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bret
(unless you tried that XD)
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tantek
bret++
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Loqi
bret has 42 karma
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michielbdejong
bret: yes, we tried it, but only two times so far. Lisbon has quite a modest tech scene, most meetups (bitcoin, javascript, whatever) are about 10 people, and usually the same faces. But we'll keep trying! :) (also in Berlin maybe)
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bret
bootstrapping a metope takes time
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bret
meetup*
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tantek
in having frustrations photo-tagging on a silo (because said silo can't seem to reliably serve https), it makes me wonder if a "photo-tag post" makes sense, as a kind of interaction
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aaronpk
interesting
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aaronpk
that'd be a neat way for other people to be able to tag people in your photos
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tantek
an in-reply-to a photo post, with a name/URL of a person (who is presumably in the photo), and optional 2d point or rect or square or polygon?
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tantek
and then call Bridgy Publish to POSSE a copy of your "photo tag post" to the silo that has the photo, where Bridgy could do the photo-tagging for you as your post specifies to do.
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tantek
presumably the reply-context for a photo-tag post would include the entire photo that you're tagging
#
tantek
so that your photo-tag post could actually display a name/link of the people-tag, optionally on top of the person in the photo via 2d point/rect
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tantek
and even do hover effects
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bear
isn't that a variation of a fragmention?
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tantek
whcih also makes me thinkg a people-tag post should be able to specify multiple people-tags
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tantek
bear - a fragmention is plumbing
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tantek
it's not marginalia as it's not in the margin
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JonathanNeal
learned he’s a plumber.
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bear
sorry, I was typing fast and trying to use "fragmention" as short-hand for a webmention targetting a specific mf2 item within a url
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tantek
though a way of specifying a point/rect on an image URL would be interesting
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tantek
which server-side image maps do right?
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gRegor`
snarfed: What did you update with bridgy's TLS?
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snarfed
gRegor`: i originally only used the domain cert, but it also needed the CA's intermediate cert. i added that
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gRegor`
Ahh, cool
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tantek
ah yes - ?x,y as in ?3,9
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tantek
aaronpk - so yes, I'd like to post people-tag posts on my own site as replies to photo posts on silos
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tantek
and right - once we have that figured out
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aaronpk
that'd be cool
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tantek
anyone could people-tag across the indieweb of photo posts
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aaronpk
I would totally do that too
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tantek
and the original photo post would simply accumulate all the people-tags via the same webmention receiving mechanisms we use for everything else
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aaronpk
tantek: that sounds like it's worth writing up on /photo-tagging !
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tantek
is braindumping into IRC as thoughts pop into his head
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tantek
of course this brings up the challenge/question of - how do I see all the photos that I'm tagged in?
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aaronpk
presumably you'd be tagging the person and link to their home page
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tantek
not only is there a need for a people aggregator for people search, but now a people-tags aggregator to see what photos you've been tagged in across the web!
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aaronpk
so your post would send a webmention to their home page which could recognize it as a tag
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tantek
yes! your people-tag post sends webmentions to BOTH the original photo post AND the home page of the person you're tagging
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tantek
ok - still don't need an aggregator for that then ;)
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tantek
then when you're people-tagged in something, you get a home page webmention from a people-tag post, and you can keep all those in a list too
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aaronpk
but that sort of smart recognition of the semantics of the post is a perfect thing for services like webmention.io, which could give you interfaces for browsing your webmentions not just as a list of most recent, but grouped by "photos i'm tagged in", etc
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aaronpk
(of course your site could do it too, but using a service would be the lazy way)
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tantek
this enables a sort of SWAT 0.1 where there are FOUR actors
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aaronpk
i see where you're going with this
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tantek
A takes photo of B and posts it, *D* is following A so sees the photo and people-tags B in it. C comments on the photo which notifies A, B, and D
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tantek
C is presumably also following A
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aaronpk
what if C is following B?
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aaronpk
and that's how they found the photo, because B was tagged in it
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aaronpk
or is that 0.2?
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tantek
that might be 0.2
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tantek
where you see stuff your friends are passively involved in
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tantek
s/friends/followings
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: where you see stuff your followings are passively involved in
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tantek
in addition to stuff your followings actively post
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tantek
dang why do I keep coming up with new post type ideas faster than I can code them :/
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tantek
not just ideas, itches!
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tantek
I blame the silos for being a source of frustration.
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GWG
tantek: Poison ivy
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aaronpk
and now i'm seriously considering a whole reworking of how i handle content and URLs which is gonna delay all the new stuff
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aaronpk
i need to take like 2 weeks off and churn through all this
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bret.io
edited /Docker (+104) "/* Indieweb Containers */ Added known docker containers"
(view diff)
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GWG
I'm going to take a rest for a few. Someone ping me when HWC starts
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bret.io
created /PAAS (+419) "stubbed PAAS"
(view diff)
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bret
snarfed: ahh good catch
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bret.io
edited /PAAS (+16) "added links"
(view diff)
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tantek
does anyone get home page webmention notifications? and have a list of them they can look at? (separate from just a list of all webmentions you've received)
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bret
sort of
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bret
(broken)
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bret
(sort of)
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snarfed
(i don't think any visible right now are homepage mentions, but they do show up there)
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bear
my arrives via xmpp alerts from my bot
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snarfed
kylewm: ruh roh, just fyi, https://kylewm.com/ is 500ing
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snarfed
er, disregard ben_thatmust's, looks like his is all wms, not just homepage
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KevinMarks_
I was about to say that I get them
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@LifeHealthDiary
MT @aral: Here’s the only acceptable criterion for #IoT & #wearables: Individuals own & control the tech & data. #OwnYourData
(twtr.io/t6MVdazFuf)
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tantek.com
edited /style-guide (+32) "See Also wikifying"
(view diff)
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tantek
that's a legit use of ownyourdata
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tantek
KevinMarks_: separate from just a list of all webmentions you've received?
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KevinMarks_
Yes, the embed is per page
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tantek
today's rant: sites that are so fragile due to their heavy reliance on JS. Like all major /silos - see also http://htmlcssjavascript.com/web/youre-so-smart-you-turned-javascript-into-xhtml/
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tantek
as in - ways we can build better indieweb sites than any silo
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KevinMarks_
Well, my webmentions are js
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tantek
do you have a <noscript> fallback with a hyperlink to a page somewhere that renders those webmentions server-side instead?
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KevinMarks_
Realising that SVG follows xml rules has put me off it a bit
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KevinMarks_
Hm, not sure that have that
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tantek
SVG is basically *begging* for someone to invent a simpler more robust more minimal more authorable vector graphics format.
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aaronpk
not it
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tantek
back to person-tag post braindumping
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tantek
I'm thinking a single person per person-tag post might actually be ok / accurate, as it is a distinct action that has its own dt-published time that you "do" / "save" it.
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tantek
and then the key may be to intelligently cluster such person-tag posts that are in-reply-to the same photo post
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tantek
cluster on the display in your site that is
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tantek
rather than having each look like a distinct post, you could apply a heuristic of detecting consecutive replies you posted in-reply-to the same original permalink
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tantek
and show them as one big compound reply post, with a single reply-context (since they're in-reply-to the same thing)
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aaronpk
I already want to do basically that same clustering on http://aaronparecki.com/mentions
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aaronpk
instead of showing each incoming "like" as a full entry, I want to cluster them based on the common item that is being liked
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tantek
however having each person-tag be its own post makes sense from a webmention sending/receiving perspective too
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tantek
on the receiving end - it's perfectly fine (maybe even easier to parses/process/handle) one-person person-tag posts
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tantek
each with their own permalink
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aaronpk
agreed
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tantek
if we're ok with a limited one-person per person-tag post then the syntax is fairly simple
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tantek
*a* syntax that is, for consideration
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reedstrm
also makes a for easier repudiation/correction: mistags can be corrected individually
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tantek
reedstrm: true!
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tantek
by changing just that one post and (re)sending a webmention per CRUD
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tantek
we already a way of doing in-reply-to, and a pattern for specific interactions: u-*-of
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tantek
we already have a way of including tags in a post: p-category
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tantek
an h-entry that has a u-in-reply-to inside that *also* has the class name u-tag-of
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tantek
and then inside the h-entry (likely inside the e-content, but not essential), a p-category with the tagname string
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tantek
and if the p-category is also an h-card, e.g. "p-category h-card", then it becomes a person-tag
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tantek
to tag a person at a specific *point* in a photo, you simply append the server-side-image-map URL syntax to the in-reply-to tag-of URL ?x,y
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aaronpk
what if the in reply to URL already has a query string?
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KevinMarks_
Could an hCard be a venue tag too?
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tantek
KevinMarks: much more extensibility than that ;)
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KevinMarks_
May need to explicitly distinguish
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tantek
KevinMarks: no need
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tantek
if it has a name, URL, photo, just process it the same way
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tantek
aaronpk - not sure - probably worth exploring alternatives
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KevinMarks_
And assume a venue has an adr or geo?
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tantek
especially since alternatives should allow a whole *rect*, not just a point
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tantek
KevinMarks: no need
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aaronpk
I could see using a fragment for that #x,y
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tantek
much extensibility is what you get by combinging "p-category" with *any* h-*
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tantek
e.g. you could tag a photo as being *at a geolocation* by "p-category h-geo"
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tantek
s/a photo/any post
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: e.g. you could tag any post as being *at a geolocation* by "p-category h-geo"
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tantek
you could tag any post as having been taken at an event by "p-category h-event"
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tantek
s/taken/posted
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: you could tag any post as having been posted at an event by "p-category h-event"
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tantek
for photos or any other kind of post
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tantek
you could tag any post, like a photo, as having a specific *product* in it by "p-category h-product", and coordinates for the product in the photo
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tantek
I think this might just solve the arbitrary object annotated with another type of object that the w3c annotation folks are (over)thinking about.
#
tantek
as this works for people-tagging others' photo posts
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tantek
it extends trivially to anything-tagging others' anything posts
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aaronpk
and anyone can do it without accounts or signups
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aaronpk
i can tag your stuff and you can choose whether to accept it
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tantek
right - it builds on all the indieweb building blocks
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tantek
webmentions - you choose whether to accept them or not from anybody or not
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tantek
or require vouches or not
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tantek
you could have vouched people-tags
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aaronpk
I like it
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tantek
you could even allow only people-tags from A of person B, if there's a vouch from person/site B to A!
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tantek
you could even use this to tag your own posts
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tantek
after the fact
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tantek
instead of feeling pressured to get it all "right" when you initially post
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tantek
like location, people, hashtags etc.
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aaronpk
I recently added an interface for adding tags to my own posts
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tantek
just post your content, and append the other stuff later if needed / wanted
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aaronpk
I was originally thinking about doing it via micropub
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tantek
aaronpk - and of course you can post "just" string tags too
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aaronpk
but this would be better because then I could accept tags from other people
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tantek
both make sense
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tantek
micropub could be used to *update* a post with tags directly embedded in the post
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aaronpk
my current implementation is not actually micropub, it's just an internal request
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KevinMarks_
Hm, so you're assuming an entry per tag?
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tantek
and you could receive webmentions of tag posts and display them on a post like you display comments/likes/reposts on a post
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tantek
KevinMarks - already discussed above along with implications / presentation etc.
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tantek
aaronpk - sure. I'm saying that adding tags to micropub *and* receiving webmentions for tag posts both make sense.
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aaronpk
adding tags via micropub is more like an "edit" of the post
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aaronpk
which is actually what we hashed out more of during indiewebcamp online
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tantek
sure - that totally makes sense
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KevinMarks_
So, concretely, how would I change the output of noterlive to tag the people I'm recording?
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KevinMarks_
s/record/quot/
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Loqi
KevinMarks_ meant to say: So, concretely, how would I change the output of noterlive to tag the people I'm quoting?
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tantek
KevinMarks - could you provide a permalink on your site of an individual noterlive post?
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tantek
on an individual post, you would take your existing reference to the person (name & URL), make that a "p-category h-card".
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tantek
so then we know that your post is about that person
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tantek
and that you're not just mentioning them
lukebrooker, alanpearce, gRegor`, reidab, Pea1, KevinMarks__, j12t and wolftune joined the channel
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tantek
side-effect of solving the general annotate an object with another object problem, which was meant to solve the specific use-case of posting a people-tag post about someone else's photo post :
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tantek
the same syntax works for just person-tagging a post directly
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gregorlove.com
edited /User:Gregorlove.com (+9) "/* Introduction */ testing"
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tantek
in the post
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tantek
(at least without the consideration of location - that's TBD)
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tantek
(the "location" within a photo that is)
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tantek
though once that's solved, we can also post arbitrary photo notes
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tantek
notes attached to points on a photo
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tantek
comments attached to points on a photo
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tantek
thus on *any* post, if you want to tag the post itself, simply markup your tags for the post with p-category inside the h-entry, e.g. #<span class="p-category">indiewebcamp</span>
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aaronpk
oh dear
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aaronpk
hmm I suppose they should be treated as the same URL even though they are actually different
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tantek
thus to add a *person-tag* to any post, make that p-category an h-card as well, and per common usage, a hyperlink to the person's profile/homepage
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thedod_
maybe it should be configurable per site
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tantek
<a class="p-category h-card" href="http://personB.example.com/">Person Bee</a> - anywhere inside the h-entry, e.g. even inline in the e-content!
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tantek
and presto you've person-tagged your post
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aaronpk
yeah that makes sense!
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tantek
so if it's a photo post, you've person-tagged your photo post - implying that the photo is *about* the person, thus the person is *in* the photo
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tantek
really simple incremental markup addition to any post
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tantek
really simple incremental property to parse (and embedded object to look for)
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aaronpk
I still wish it was called p-tag instead of p-category given that all the documentation and conversation refers to it as a "tag" instead of a "category"
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tantek
"tags" are the fashionable term (years) for what has been called / known as "category" or "subject" for *decades*
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tantek
so no - it doesn't make sense to call something (different) p-tag
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kylewm.com
edited /events/2014-11-19-homebrew-website-club (+13) "/* RSVP */ I can't make it this week :( Work getting in the way!"
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tantek
plus p-category already exists from h-card hCard vCard etc.
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GWG
tantek: WordPress defines the difference, interestingly enough, as hierarchy.
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GWG
A tag lacks a hierarchy, but a category has one.
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tantek
I bet most uses of category lack any hierarchy as well
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GWG
tantek: Won't argue
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tantek
sounds like the same way that a wikipedia page name has a hierarchy because it has "/" in the name
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aaronpk
oh yeah I remember setting up category hierarchies for wordpress blogs
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aaronpk
usually ends up being unnecessary tho
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GWG
I use categories sparingly and tags regularly.
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tantek
exactly, a bunch more crap to maintain! yay!
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GWG
Categories are what I use to section my site. Tags are what I use to group subjects.
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aaronpk
ok yeah that's it i'm giving up on segmenting my site based on post type
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tantek
yeah!
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aaronpk
everything is just going to be a "post" from now on, and the post is going to have different attributes
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snarfed
aaronpk++
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Loqi
aaronpk has 608 karma
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aaronpk
i'm still going to publish multiple feeds, because I don't want my reply posts in my main feed
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tantek
sure that's sensible
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aaronpk
but i'll basically be able to put any post into any feed
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aaronpk
I think my next step is to go through all of my existing posts and document what kinds of properties all of them have
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aaronpk
or properties I want them to have
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aaronpk
like people tags
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tantek
note that person-tags are both an aspect of a post, and potentially a post type in and of themselves!
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tantek
if they have a "u-in-reply-to u-tag-of" link
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aaronpk
yep, time for a new version of that post
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aaronpk
which means I have the first additional attribute I need to add, an "update-of" property
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gRegor`
I'm experimenting with Chatzilla's motif, which unfortunately requires restarting Firefox, thus my joins/parts.
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aaronpk
and the opposite, updated, for the 2012 post
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tantek
update-of?
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tantek
I'd interpret update-of as a literal update - like inline
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tantek
like replace this with this
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gRegor`
So sorry about that. But when I'm done, this will resemble the log version of the chat and be much better. Wee!
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aaronpk
oh yeah, not sure what to call it
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tantek
per CRUD
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aaronpk
follow-up?
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tantek
better
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tantek
but question - why does it need explicit markup at all?
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aaronpk
i didn't say markup :)
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tantek
there has to be a machine use-case for it
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tantek
yes you did: "an "update-of" property"
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aaronpk
i'm talking about internal for now
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aaronpk
internal properties
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tantek
property is markup
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aaronpk
what is a collection?
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Loqi
A collection is a type of post that lists and/or embeds multiple other posts http://indiewebcamp.com/collection
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aaronpk
what is a feed?
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Loqi
A feed is a collection of posts, typically listed in reverse-chronological order http://indiewebcamp.com/feed
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aaronpk
well then
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aaronpk
what's the difference?
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tantek
curated vs dynamic
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aaronpk
earlier I mentioned I will be choosing which feeds various posts go into
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aaronpk
one automatic rule is replies don't go into my home page feed
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tantek.com
edited /feed (+49) "dynamic, most recent"
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aaronpk
but I also may choose manually
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tantek
feed are expected to change over time
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tantek
in a way very different than collections
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aaronpk
like if a collection changes, it's because of an explicit "update" action?
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tantek
right
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tantek
posts fall out of feeds
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tantek
whereas usually collections just grow
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tantek
very different UX
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tantek
even if it sounds like similar plumbing
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tantek
that's the better answer
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aaronpk
oh interesting point, would you expect to see all posts in a collection without paging?
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aaronpk
I expect to be able to navigate through all posts in a feed too, but by paging
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tantek
a lot of collections work like that
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tantek
in fact, by default, no paging
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tantek
and many (most?) feeds have no paging at all
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tantek
just most recent n
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tantek.com
edited /collection (+390) "collection explicit chosen, changes, feeds difference"
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tantek
aaronpk - not a reasonable expectation - certainly not backed by typical implementation
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tantek
where feeds have n posts and that's it. zero pagination
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tantek
whereas there is an expectation of being able to get to
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tantek
"everything" in a collection
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tantek
a feed is expected to just be a most recent things slice
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tantek
aaronpk - if you got person-tag replies to a photo post, would you show them as <area> elements on top of the photo?
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aaronpk
yeah would love to!
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tantek
of course that would require a way for the person-tag reply to indicate *where* the <area> element should go on the photo
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tantek
like a <span class="p-category h-shape">…</span>
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tantek
thinks about h-shape and the aforementioned seemingly unrelated offhand comment he made about a simpler more robust more minimal more authorable vector graphic format. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-11-19/line/1416433462223
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tantek
of course the geo world has an idea of a shape of something with a description of what it is right?
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snarfed
benwerd: just fyi, http://fatberg.org/ is down :(
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tantek
does geojson have that?
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snarfed
(top priority! :P)
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benwerd
noooooo
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benwerd
fatberg
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Loqi
benwerd: tantek left you a message 1 week ago: how long have you been exclusively posting notes (@-replies, etc.) to your own site instead of Twitter? (add yourself! https://indiewebcamp.com/own_your_data#IndieWeb_Examples ) Or do you still occassionally post a note directly to Twitter not using your own site?
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Loqi
benwerd: tantek left you a message 6 days ago: might be worth asking this guy what the "hassle" was withknown: https://twitter.com/tante/status/533007857210646528
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Loqi
benwerd: mko left you a message on 11/10 at 4:42pm: Are the Known Pro features going to be available to self-hosted instances on GitHub, or does pre-ordering Known Pro get developer access to Known Pro code as well?
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Loqi
benwerd: tantek left you a message 1 week ago: how long have you been exclusively posting notes (@-replies, etc.) to your own site instead of Twitter? (add yourself! https://indiewebcamp.com/own_your_data#IndieWeb_Examples ) Or do you still occassionally post a note directly to Twitter not using your own site?
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Loqi
benwerd: tantek left you a message 6 days ago: might be worth asking this guy what the "hassle" was withknown: https://twitter.com/tante/status/533007857210646528
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mko
Lol.
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tantek
well done snarfed
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aaronpk
i like that "fatberg is down" is the thing that brought benwerd out
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tantek
snarfed++
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Loqi
snarfed has 54 karma
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mko
snarfed++
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Loqi
snarfed has 55 karma
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snarfed
wait wait benwerd if we have your attention, this is kinda hilarious and even higher priority: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-11-17#t1416269352139
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tantek
benwerd, making it to the 1 year anniversary of HWC tonight?
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mko
I love that my message for benward was so long ago that it had to use an absolute date instead of a relative date.
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mko
And, benwerd, I still am waiting on that answer.
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benwerd
snarfed: oh, we do know about that. It's some teenagers in India. We like their enthusiasm :)
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tantek
gets the feeling benwerd is drowing in inbox(es).
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benwerd
is drowning in inboxes
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snarfed
benwerd++
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Loqi
benwerd has 44 karma
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tantek
inboxes--
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Loqi
inboxes has -1 karma
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tantek
oh wait - no need for h-shape - the person-tag post itself can use <area> to do the linking to the person!
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tantek
from it's reply-context image!
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tantek
<area class="p-category h-card" href="http://personB.example.com" shape="rect" coords="100,100,120,120">
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tantek
that's how you shape-tag
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tantek
for a "point" you'd simply use 1x1, e.g. coords="100,100,101,101"
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tantek
oh I forgot the name
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tantek
<area class="p-category h-card" href="http://personB.example.com" alt="Person Bee" shape="rect" coords="100,100,120,120">
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tantek
and if you want the person's name to show up as a tool-tip on hover:
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tantek
<area class="p-category h-card" href="http://personB.example.com" alt="Person Bee" title="Person Bee" shape="rect" coords="100,100,120,120">
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tantek
to leave a note on a photo:
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tantek
s/note/comment on a specific rectangle/
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: to leave a comment on a specific rectangle on a photo:
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tantek
<area class="p-category h-entry" href="http://b.example.com/note-permalink" alt="This spot in the photo is interesting." shape="rect" coords="100,100,120,120">
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tantek
but for now - aaronpk - if I manually constructed a person-tag reply to https://aaronparecki.com/notes/2014/10/13/1/indieweb-latergram in that way - what would it take for you to parse it?
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tantek
has made far too much wiki-work for himself in IRC today. Sigh.
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GWG
tantek: Think of the benefit to future generations
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