#indiewebcamp 2014-11-21

2014-11-21 UTC
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Loqi [mention] https://dubiousdod.org/indie/2014/11/freemyoauth-is-a-cool-idea-was-weird-to-see-myself linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/FreeMyOAuth (webmention)
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@TheRealDod The url got lost in the pipes: https://indiewebcamp.com/FreeMyOAuth #FreeMyOAuth (twitter.com/_/status/535584534998155264)
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@adb1146 RT @t: “brands should build their own communities & leverage social sites” @forrester http://marketingland.com/forrester-says-marketers-wasting-resources-facebook-twitter-108376 #indieweb #POSSE (ttk.me t4ZE2) (twitter.com/_/status/535584847151235072)
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@TheRealDod RT @t: What apps have #oauth access to your accounts? I created this page help http://indiewebcamp.com/FreeMyOAuth Inspired by ... http://tantek.com/2014/324/t1/apps-oauth-access-accounts-freemyoauth-oauth (twitter.com/_/status/535585427160195072)
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tantek glad you liked the page thedod !
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/t/535526280431960066/39007560 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/FreeMyOAuth (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/repost/twitter/t/535526280431960066/535585427160195072 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/FreeMyOAuth (webmention)
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thedod tantek, I have a long hate/hate relationship with oauth :) e.g. https://dubiousdod.org/go/OpenID
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tantek thedod: you're not alone :)
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tantek thedod: lol: "If you are using Microsoft Internet Explorer you may need to click on the yellow bar above and select 'Allow Blocked Content'. You must then click 'Yes' on the following security warning."
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tantek come now, you can serve some plain HTML and not depend on JS for everything. ;)
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tantek is stubbornly running NoScript :D
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tantek (and will give a hard time to any indiewebber who doesn't serve static HTML as at least the initial page load)
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tantek if you can't curl it, it's not on the web :P
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thedod tantek, can't blame you for noscripting, but I gotta admit this text you're quoting is new to me
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thedod searches it in the source
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tantek thedod - it's what I see when I load "dubiousdod.org/go/OpenID" without JS
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thedod ah.
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thedod so you probably get the whole wiki as a single mess
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thedod tries
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tantek I'm just clicking links and reporting back what I see :)
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thedod it's cool. someone had to try that once
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thedod bloody hell. where do [prvicay warriors] firefox hide their "disable JS" GUI *this* time?
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tantek just install NoScript add-on - and make your browsing MUCH faster :D
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thedod got convinced. brb
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aaronpk man google is way faster without the JS
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aaronpk so is image search
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tantek yes it is
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aaronpk omg flickr is actually usable this way
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aaronpk and still looks half decent
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tantek you know what's even faster w/o JS? Yahoo search. And Bing. both are faster than Google w/o JS.
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aaronpk nvm, none of the photo metadata loads on photo permalinks
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thedod just installed it (but allowing scripts from my own site)
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GWG I have returned
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thedod o/
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aaronpk i can't seem to type anything on bing
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tantek I just use the search box with Bing chosen
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aaronpk ah
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thedod tantek, luckily, I now have that h-card bottom left so that noscripters can get to my not-so-js-intense /indie.
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gRegor` Another take on Let's Encrypt: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/article/20141120073425-26662417-why-i-won-t-be-using-let-s-encrypt-and-recommend-other-not-to-also
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/t/535526280431960066/12061042 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/FreeMyOAuth (webmention)
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gRegor` thedod: Probably too late, but in Firefox Developer tools: Settings gear > Advanced settings > Disable Javascript
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thedod thanks gRegor`
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thedod trying to webmention withnown I get [{'success': False, 'target': 'https://thedod.withknown.com/2014/webmentiondressing', 'explanation': 'Status code: 400, Response: {"error":"target_not_found","error_text":"The target page does not exist."}'}
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tantek gRegor`: linkedin; dr.
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thedod who does withnown? somewone from here?
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gRegor` Heh. First time I'd ever read an article on linkedin
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gRegor` But it's good, imo
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gRegor` benwerd and erinjo are behind Known
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gRegor` tantek: Fixed for you :) https://www.instapaper.com/text?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.linkedin.com%2Fpulse%2Farticle%2F20141120073425-26662417-why-i-won-t-be-using-let-s-encrypt-and-recommend-other-not-to-also
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tantek gRegor`: and here I thought you were going to post a /repost on your own site ;)
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kylewm gRegor`: sounds pretty FUDy to me... why is this root CA any different than all the other root CAs
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gRegor` As far as the problems posed, none. CAs are a problem.
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gRegor` As far as introducing a new one that gives out free certs and thus might be more uptake...
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thedod gRegor`, I just installed noscript so my guess is tantek sees a blank page now
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tantek I have no patience for silos that require JS just to see the main content of a page which should be rendered serverside and sent as HTML.
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gRegor` https://twitter.com/alexanderhanff/status/535340669716660224
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@alexanderhanff @nashtonhart @declanm certificate authorities will always be a weak link in the chain no matter where they are based (twitter.com/_/status/535340669716660224)
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gRegor` (author of that article)
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kylewm doesn't seem like a good argument to me
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kylewm if they're broken they're all broken
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gRegor` ? That's what he's saying
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thedod As one of the crusaders for a better CA-less world at https://hidden-id.github.io I agree that the CA system is broken, but an interim where 90% of the site need MITM and hanky panky in order to monitor can be quite itchy for the NSA
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snarfed thedod++ for shades of gray
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Loqi thedod has 3 karma
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thedod snickers
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gRegor` True
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gRegor` I just hope the tech attention span doesn't forget the problems with CAs because Super CA came along.
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@bencrox RT @t: What apps have #oauth access to your accounts? I created this page help http://indiewebcamp.com/FreeMyOAuth Inspired by ... http://tantek.com/2014/324/t1/apps-oauth-access-accounts-freemyoauth-oauth (twitter.com/_/status/535602477756739584)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/t/535526280431960066/14465627 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/FreeMyOAuth (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/repost/twitter/t/535526280431960066/535602477756739584 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/FreeMyOAuth (webmention)
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kylewm thedod: looks like Known is having http vs. https issues, I only get that error if i reply to the https verison
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kylewm which makes sense, I think https is v. new addition for them
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@LynxEvil RT @t: What apps have #oauth access to your accounts? I created this page help http://indiewebcamp.com/FreeMyOAuth Inspired by ... http://tantek.com/2014/324/t1/apps-oauth-access-accounts-freemyoauth-oauth (twitter.com/_/status/535605197213425664)
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kylewm "https issues" is probably overselling it. probably just string comparison issues :)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/t/535526280431960066/535605384845611009 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/FreeMyOAuth (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/repost/twitter/t/535526280431960066/535605197213425664 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/FreeMyOAuth (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/t/535526280431960066/457930801 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/FreeMyOAuth (webmention)
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thedod kylewm, I don't think https is the problem [this time :)] http://thedod.withknown.com/2014/webmentiondressing/annotations/e558d250bc031074a36dcf8fbdda9793
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thedod oops.
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thedod you're right
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thedod the one that succeeded had http
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thedod facepalms
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thedod I think it's time to pop the question
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thedod what is security?
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Loqi security in the context of the indieweb may refer to security concerns regarding personal domains, web hosting, https setup, private data, identity etc http://indiewebcamp.com/security
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tantek :)
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Electrin hi guys, just wanted to check, any plans for indiecamp in Asia?
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GWG Electrin: No one has proposed one, but you could organize one.
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Electrin sounds good. :)
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Electrin been an eternity since I used IRC.
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GWG Electrin: Oh?
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bret that would sweet
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bret Electrin: your apart of the modern IRC resurgence! ;)
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Electrin i love IRC, used to help out on #irchelp at dalnet
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Electrin had a wedding dinner table reserved for IRC friends even.
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bret freenode is pretty hoppin these days. im hooked
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tantek welcome Electrin! What's your personal site?
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Electrin tribolum.com
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Electrin Hi tantek!
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Electrin we met in SXSW 2003
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bret Electrin: when you get a chance feel free to add yourself to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people
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Electrin ah will do!
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tantek wow!
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bret links your website from the logs, and you can add a picture too
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Electrin lol tantek, still remember you were clad in a leather jacket and carried a motorbike helmet
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tantek not in Austin though! no motorbike there :)
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Electrin oh yeah...been a while...memories are fuzzy
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Electrin i attended sxsw 2003 and 2006
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Electrin from Singapore btw.
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tantek cool - those were some very good SXSW years
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tantek Electrin, take a look at http://indiewebcamp.com/Getting_Started#Set_up_your_home_page_and_web_sign-in
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Electrin thanks for the tips
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Electrin at some point I'm getting really tired of using someone elses' platform. I love Medium's tools, but feels like i'm losing my identity.
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tantek Electrin - exactly. Better to post on your own site and the /POSSE to Medium.
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bret.io edited /IRC (+24) "/* Voice */ Noted +voice isn't available yet" (view diff)
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tantek s/and the/and then
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Loqi tantek meant to say: Electrin - exactly. Better to post on your own site and then /POSSE to Medium.
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Electrin philosophy sits well with me. :)
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Electrin will hang around here, if it's ok. Need to finish up some work.
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tantek Electrin, definitely!
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tantek if you have any challenges / questions about /Getting_Started - let folks know!
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tantek and be sure to check out the logs to catch-up: https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/today
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tantek.com edited /Falcon (+322) "/* Itches */ Expiring Content" (view diff)
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dubiousdod.org edited /security (+2416) "A grumpy old man's remark on the state of security and privacy awareness in the indieverse" (view diff)
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thedod There. I said it
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Loqi [mention] https://dubiousdod.org/indie/2014/11/there-i-said-it linked to https://indiewebcamp.com/security#Known_problems (webmention)
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GWG ben_thatmustbeme: Did you see the bug went up another level?
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thedod_ aaronpk, I think webmentions.io considers the hash as part of the url e.g. http://bl.ocks.org/thedod/raw/78b14341e39ca0d09131/#security#Known_problems
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bret i think there might be some outstanding issues w/ webmention.io
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@TheRealDod “The case of the 404-ing webmention” was solved by @kylwm: you can only webmention http (not https) withknown URLs. (twitter.com/_/status/535656003497652224)
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aaronpk just got my yubikey thing and tried it out with my google account
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aaronpk setup was super easy, and didn't require me to install a browser extension
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aaronpk so why do all the docs say a browser extension is required?
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tantek what is yubikey?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "yubikey" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=yubikey
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aaronpk wtf: "Currently, you need Google Chrome and the FIDO U2F extension to enable U2F (on non-Google domains)."
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aaronpk why and how are google domains treated separately?
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tantek what is Upcoming?
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Loqi Upcoming, also known as Upcoming.org was (perhaps) the first social event sharing silo, then acquired and shutdown by Yahoo, and is now in the process of being recreated http://indiewebcamp.com/Upcoming
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@t yesterday FB SSL/CDN failures drove me to figure out #indieweb tag-reply person|photo|area-tags http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-11-19#t1416431110471 (ttk.me t4ZE3) (twitter.com/_/status/535685388309127168)
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@absalomedia RT @t: yesterday FB SSL/CDN failures drove me to figure out #indieweb tag-reply person|photo|area-tags http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-11-19#t1416431110471 (ttk.me t4ZE3) (twitter.com/_/status/535685594823655425)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/repost/twitter/t/535685388309127168/535685594823655425 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-11-19#t1416431110471 (webmention)
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@t next: * document tag-reply person-tag area-tag on #indiewebcamp wiki * post tag-reply a person-area on another's photo (ttk.me t4ZE4) (twitter.com/_/status/535688367527428096)
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@hakkiocal RT @t: yesterday FB SSL/CDN failures drove me to figure out #indieweb tag-reply person|photo|area-tags http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-11-19#t1416431110471 (ttk.me t4ZE3) (twitter.com/_/status/535690727750393856)
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@hakkiocal RT @t: next: * document tag-reply person-tag area-tag on #indiewebcamp wiki * post tag-reply a person-area on another's photo (ttk.me t4ZE4) (twitter.com/_/status/535690742111698945)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/repost/twitter/t/535685388309127168/535690727750393856 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-11-19#t1416431110471 (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/t/535685388309127168/758056 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-11-19#t1416431110471 (webmention)
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@kevinmarks Hm, I wonder if recode would like bridgy-style webmention comments http://recode.net/2014/11/20/a-note-to-recode-readers/ #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/535706815666089985)
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@chanezon RT @t: What apps have #oauth access to your accounts? I created this page help http://indiewebcamp.com/FreeMyOAuth Inspired by ... http://tantek.com/2014/324/t1/apps-oauth-access-accounts-freemyoauth-oauth (twitter.com/_/status/535708620944461824)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/t/535526280431960066/10650562 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/FreeMyOAuth (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/repost/twitter/t/535526280431960066/535708620944461824 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/FreeMyOAuth (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/t/535685388309127168/14505515 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-11-19#t1416431110471 (webmention)
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@xtof_fr Crowdfundé mes amis #indieweb de @IndieHosters á Lisbonne. Le service qui vous aidera á déboulonner votre .. http://xtof.withknown.com/2014/crowdfund-mes-amis-indieweb-de-indiehosters-lisbonne-le-service-qui (twitter.com/_/status/535729610936172544)
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@xtof_fr RT @IndieHosters: #indieweb here we come: http://www.wired.com/2014/11/indie-hosters/ (twitter.com/_/status/535730296667533312)
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@pedro_carrico I want to be able to control my internet presence…what about you? https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/indiehosters #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/535733475803164672)
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@pierreozoux @ldubost @martin1975 quit the silos and join the #indieweb :) (twitter.com/_/status/535738104834166787)
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@ldubost RT @pierreozoux: @ldubost @martin1975 quit the silos and join the #indieweb :) (twitter.com/_/status/535751010128773120)
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@IndieHosters RT @t: “brands should build their own communities & leverage social sites” @forrester http://marketingland.com/forrester-says-marketers-wasting-resources-facebook-twitter-108376 #indieweb #POSSE (ttk.me t4ZE2) (twitter.com/_/status/535766979295322112)
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dubiousdod.org edited /security (+8) "Now I know how to do italics here :)" (view diff)
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@elfpavlik RT @IndieHosters: #indieweb here we come: http://www.wired.com/2014/11/indie-hosters/ (twitter.com/_/status/535772028633350144)
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@rhiaro Support IndieHosters! http://www.wired.com/2014/11/indie-hosters/ https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/indiehosters #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/535783615901495296)
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@JockelLohkamp thx @elfpavlik: ... Wrest Your Online Identity From Google http://www.wired.com/2014/11/indie-hosters/ @OuiShareLabs #indieweb @withknown #jolocom @Gatesense_IoT (twitter.com/_/status/535796632332546049)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/t/535526280431960066/5807432 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/FreeMyOAuth (webmention)
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@wiobyrne A domain of #withknown - My thoughts about #indieweb and a domain of one's own as I... http://wiobyrne.com/a-domain-of-withknown/ https://twitter.com/wiobyrne/status/535811077674508289/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/535811077674508289)
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@jmenglund03 RT @wiobyrne: A domain of #withknown - My thoughts about #indieweb and a domain of one's own as I... http://wiobyrne.com/a-domain-of-withknown/ http://t.co/Dfb… (twitter.com/_/status/535811754383929344)
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@IndieHosters RT @wiobyrne: A domain of #withknown - My thoughts about #indieweb and a domain of one's own as I... http://wiobyrne.com/a-domain-of-withknown/ http://t.co/Dfb… (twitter.com/_/status/535813765028392961)
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@joelgaines It is past time for us to own and control our health data. Open the silos and give me my data! #OwnYourData (twitter.com/_/status/535815864076234752)
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@LifeHealthDiary It is past time for us to own and control our health data. Open the silos and give me my data! #OwnYourData (twitter.com/_/status/535815866865434624)
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ben_thatmustbeme hey, i'm hoping to be able to test something out by the end of the day. can anyone easily create a note with an h-card embedded in it (not your own)
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ben_thatmustbeme or rather customer html
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snarfed ben_thatmust: sure
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snarfed you can too, of course, just upload a static file to any number of file silos (github, dropbox, etc)
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snarfed but i'm happy to if you need someone else
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aaronpk ben_thatmustbeme: try this one, there's lots of h-cards in the content https://aaronparecki.com/articles/2013/09/15/1/indieauth-now-supports-openid-delegation
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aaronpk oh darn, just noticed my likes and reposts are showing up in the h-entry as child h-cards. that doesn't seem right.
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thedod aaronpk, is there a simply intro/tutorial to mf2? My head's still swimming in conceptual whirlwinds re who rel
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thedod s who and who's me
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ben_thatmustbeme yeah, i realized i'm actually going to need more rewrites than i though to make sure i pull in the h-card from a comment correctly
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ben_thatmustbeme at least i think so
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aaronpk i think a lot of the mf1 use of "rel" isn't used so much in mf2 anymore
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thedod goes to show you how much I understand about this :)
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aaronpk we're all making it up as we go :P
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thedod btw, if the class of an element has semantic reference, classes should be filtered from external input, or it's an attack surface
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bret thedod: you mean someone could add data externally to your page that might get parsed as non-external content?
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www.pierre-o.fr edited /store (+2) "Format" (view diff)
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michielbdejong can I add IndieHosters to http://indiewebcamp.com/hosting?
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michielbdejong there is already a use of the word "Indie Hosting" to mean basically hosting at home, which is going to be a bit confusing
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michielbdejong I propose to call hosting under your physical control (e.g. Raspberry Pi) "Home Hosting", is that a good term?
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aaronpk I dunno, I think putting a server at a colo still counts as under your control. and tha'ts decidedly not home
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michielbdejong.com edited /web_hosting (+322) "Add IndieHosters as an option" (view diff)
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michielbdejong aaronpk: but that's the previous category, right?
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michielbdejong 'dedicated server'?
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michielbdejong sorry, i just saw your message when i already clicked 'update'. we can change it back if we find a better term
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michielbdejong the 'personal cloud' section is more about raspberry pi, with pagekite
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michielbdejong it says 'running a server from a home or office'
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michielbdejong by physical control i mean in a room which you can lock so nobody else can come physically near your server
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reedstrm agreed that page is a bit of a mess.
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reedstrm michielbdejong: I like that def. Also 'home' to me means "the Feds have to serve _me_ a warrant, not some business"
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reedstrm Not that I'm worried about Feds. :-) Just channeling thedod
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michielbdejong thanks! ok, i'll change "Personal Cloud / Indie Hosting" to "Personal Cloud / Home Hosting", to avoid confusion with the new section http://indiewebcamp.com/web_hosting#Using_an_Indie_Hoster I just added.
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reedstrm michielbdejong: not sure where that leaves colos where you get a cage w/ your own key. They still do that anywhere?
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michielbdejong yes, you often see cages in data centers. I guess that's a bit of an edge case, and also financially not attainable for indiewebbers
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michielbdejong that's probably more if you have 100+ servers
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reedstrm Personally, I think Indie Hoster whould be 'anyone who considers themselves part of the Indie movement, and hosts themselves'. As described on the page, I'd call the new section 'Indie Friendly Hosters'
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aaronpk there's a place in portland you can get a cage for only lik $500/mo
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aaronpk that's not out of the realm of possibility, especially if you go in on it with a few friends
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michielbdejong.com edited /web_hosting (-1) "/* Personal Clouds */ change "Personal Cloud / Indie Hosting" to "Personal Cloud / Home Hosting", to avoid confusion with the new section http://indiewebcamp.com/web_hosting#Using_an_Indie_Hoster I just added" (view diff)
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michielbdejong ah cool
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aaronpk I don't understand this "Indie Hoster" section
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aaronpk where did this term come from and are there any other references to it?
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michielbdejong we've just started crowdfunding
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reedstrm Recently had to rejigger severs at home (HD on the PDVR died) and was shocked at the amount of dustbunnies I had to clean out. I've been spoiled by works first class datacenter.
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aaronpk and how is that different from shared hosting?
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aaronpk or VPS hosting
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aaronpk so "Indie Hoster" is a company?
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michielbdejong you don't have to know what a php file is
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michielbdejong no
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aaronpk "we've just started crowdfunding" <-- who?
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michielbdejong Pierre-O and I! :)
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reedstrm aaronpk: agreed looks funny to me. See my suggestion of Indie friendly hosting
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petermolnar as far as I understand Indie Hoster is a regular sysadmin for you
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Pierre-O yes, like your personal trainer
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michielbdejong yeah
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aaronpk ...trying to find this...
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aaronpk found http://indiehostingmachine.com/ https://twitter.com/indiehosting http://www.indiehosts.com/ and https://indiehosters.net/
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reedstrm so, OAS? Ops As a Service ?
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aaronpk ok so you guys are indiehosters.net
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michielbdejong we can put it inside the "CMS as a service" section
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aaronpk this sounds like dreamhost with their one-click installs?
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Pierre-O yes
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aaronpk it's basically shared hosting right?
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michielbdejong aaronpk: no, it's different, it's closer to CMS as a service than to shared hosting
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Pierre-O I mean, yes, we are indiehosters
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petermolnar according to the link above, it's a container based managed server
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Pierre-O yes
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aaronpk okay, so there's a category for hosted CMS on the web hosting page already
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michielbdejong okay, let's merge it with that, maybe that's clearer
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michielbdejong sorry
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aaronpk I just don't see how it's different
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aaronpk the main difference from the examples given is that indiehosters.net lets you choose from multiple CMSs, whereas the others offer their own
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aaronpk (the examples given being Known, wordpress.com, wp engine)
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michielbdejong yes, i guess it's a small enough difference, we should merge it
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Pierre-O and we don't limit installation of plugins
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aaronpk those sound like distinguising features of indiehosters.net
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petermolnar uum, no, you can always choose what you want at a lot of places for the managed server option, you just need to pay more
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michielbdejong thanks for the correction
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aaronpk worth pointing out
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Pierre-O and the terms of service *will* be better, because you have a personal relationship with your indiehoster
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aaronpk petermolnar: this is one level removed from a managed server it sounds like
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petermolnar that sounds like sleepless nights for a poor sysadmin for me
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Pierre-O no, you, as an indiehoster, needs to have a friend to go on holidays :)
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petermolnar is a 9to5 sysadmin, was a shared hosting provider a long time ago, with personal relations to the customers and will never go back there
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bret ohhh nice lookin indiehosters site
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bret :)
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michielbdejong.com edited /web_hosting (-264) "merge 'using an Indie Hoster' section into 'CMS SaaS' section" (view diff)
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Pierre-O petermolnar: tools evolve
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petermolnar customers don't :)
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Pierre-O hehe!
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Pierre-O facebook manages 1M customer per employee, we believe we can host 20k
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Pierre-O thanks bret! (we need to increase our IndieMark ;) )
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michielbdejong.com created /IndieHosters (+131) "Created page with "{{stub}} [https://indiehosters.net/ IndieHosters.net] is a new network of independent hosters who offer CMS Software as a Service."" (view diff)
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michielbdejong.com created /IndieHoster (+70) "Created page with "An <dfn>IndieHoster</dfn> is a member of the [[IndieHosters]] network."" (view diff)
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michielbdejong what is an indiehoster
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Loqi An IndieHoster is a member of the IndieHosters network http://indiewebcamp.com/IndieHoster
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michielbdejong what is indiehosters
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Loqi http://indiewebcamp.com/IndieHosters
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michielbdejong aaronpk: better like this? http://indiewebcamp.com/web_hosting#Hosted_CMS_Software_as_Service
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thedod reedstrm++
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Loqi reedstrm has 8 karma
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www.reedstrom.org edited /IndieHosters (+49) "link back to web_hosting" (view diff)
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michielbdejong I guess we're still in the process of defining what IndieHosters.net is and will be once it grows up :)
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michielbdejong reedstrm: ah thanks
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reedstrm np
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aaronpk michielbdejong: you should add the distinguishing features of indiehosters.net to that page too!
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aaronpk or at the very least on http://indiewebcamp.com/IndieHosters
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michielbdejong ok, will do!
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@jtroyer @scott_lowe But Twitter? Terrible group interaction, thoughts swept away instantly. (Check out webmentions & https://www.brid.gy though) (twitter.com/_/status/535848246191849472)
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@ccarfi How I set up my #indieweb server cc: @benwerd @t @kevinmarks https://support.godaddy.com/help/article/12362/setting-up-a-indieweb-server-using-cpanel http://ccarfi.com/s/3HrWk (twitter.com/_/status/535849924986802176)
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@jtroyer @scott_lowe For you especially hate to lose them. Unfortunately Webmentions on Jekyll still slightly bleeding edge http:///notebook/2014/enabling-webmentions-in-jekyll/ (twitter.com/_/status/535850098337800192)
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www.pierre-o.fr edited /store (+226) "/* Key Features */ Adds migration section" (view diff)
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www.pierre-o.fr created /one_click_migration (+2127) "creation" (view diff)
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@seanbohan RT @ccarfi: How I set up my #indieweb server cc: @benwerd @t @kevinmarks http://t.co/t2QZbrlrYH… http://ccarfi.com/s/3HrWk (twitter.com/_/status/535851092874383360)
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www.pierre-o.fr created /Migration_Format (+163) "creation" (view diff)
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Pierre-O I think that this Migration thing is really what would make a difference
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@kevinmarks RT @ccarfi: How I set up my #indieweb server cc: @benwerd @t @kevinmarks https://support.godaddy.com/help/article/12362/setting-up-a-indieweb-server-using-cpanel http://ccarfi.com/s/3HrWk (twitter.com/_/status/535853111827771393)
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@evanpro RT @ccarfi: How I set up my #indieweb server cc: @benwerd @t @kevinmarks https://support.godaddy.com/help/article/12362/setting-up-a-indieweb-server-using-cpanel http://ccarfi.com/s/3HrWk (twitter.com/_/status/535853409841455104)
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reedstrm grrr, Loqi's breaking relative links from tweets somehow? (see http:///notebook/2014/enabling-webmentions-in-jekyll/ (http://twtr.io/tAJnGk4cps))
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Loqi who, me?
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@benwerd RT @ccarfi: How I set up my #indieweb server cc: @benwerd @t @kevinmarks https://support.godaddy.com/help/article/12362/setting-up-a-indieweb-server-using-cpanel http://ccarfi.com/s/3HrWk (twitter.com/_/status/535855133909737472)
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tantek good morning #indiewebcamp!
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tantek good to see /IndieHosters get its own page!
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tantek what is IndieHosters?
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Loqi http://indiewebcamp.com/IndieHosters
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tantek let's give it some dfn love
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tantek.com edited /IndieHosters (+51) "dfn, see also" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /IndieHosters (-4) (view diff)
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tantek what is IndieHosters?
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Loqi IndieHosters is a new network of independent hosters who offer CMS Software as a Service http://indiewebcamp.com/IndieHosters
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tantek much better
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tantek aaronpk - re: likes and reposts are showing up in the h-entry as child h-cards
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tantek solution to that is
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tantek similar to putting received comments on a class="p-comment h-entry"
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tantek put received likes and reposts on class="p-like h-entry" and class="p-repost h-entry" respectively
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tantek that way they're neatly contained in specific properties of your h-entry, rather than being floating children
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michielbdejong tantek_: thanks! :)
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aaronpk ah yeah that makes sense
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michielbdejong we were lucky to get featured on Wired yesterday, crowdfunding is taking off well.
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tantek michielbdejong++ for /IndieHosters \o/ woot!
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Loqi michielbdejong has 3 karma
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aaronpk oh oops I'm not even enclosing the links in an h-entry
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tantek heh
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aaronpk wait, h-entry or h-cite?
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tantek sorry, h-cite, you're right
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tantek since you're *citing* the external like, comment etc.
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aaronpk right okay. i haven't forgotten all the things.
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tantek this also solves thedod's concern about "if the class of an element has semantic reference, classes should be filtered from external input, or it's an attack surface" - because once you've contained it in an h-cite, you're good to go.
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tantek no need to filter classes from external input
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tantek in fact, don't filter them, or if you feel like filtering, at least *keep* all the uf2 prefixed classes (h- p- dt- u- e-) in order to maintain maximum semantic fidelity.
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tantek michielbdejong: next, add yourself to indiewebcamp.com/irc-people !
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michielbdejong will do! thx
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tantek what is OAS?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "OAS" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=OAS
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tantek what is a sysadmin?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "sysadmin" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=sysadmin
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tantek what is wpengine?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "wpengine" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=wpengine
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tantek what is a datacenter?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "datacenter" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=datacenter
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tantek what is a personal cloud?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "personal cloud" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=personal+cloud
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tantek what is a cage?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "cage" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=cage
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aaronpk lol
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tantek sometimes like to pretend to play non-techie person that doesn't get the jargon, just to make a point.
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tantek what is migration?
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Loqi http://indiewebcamp.com/migration
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tantek hmmm
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tantek I got this one
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tantek.com edited /migration (+334) "dfn, see also" (view diff)
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thedod what is privacy?
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Loqi Privacy is “the ability of an individual or group to seclude themselves or information about themselves and thereby express themselves selectively” http://indiewebcamp.com/privacy
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thedod ooooh
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tantek what is migration?
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Loqi migration in the context of the indieweb refers to the process of moving your indieweb site from any one or more of one CMS / web host / DNS provider / URL design / domain name to another http://indiewebcamp.com/migration
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tantek boom.
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aaronpk nice
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thedod should I do the "grumpy old man" routine on privacy too?
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tantek not unless you have specific examples.
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thedod any remarks on what I did with security?
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tantek grumpy old man commenting from an arm chair is not very useful
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tantek right, that's the one feedback I have on your /security additions - lots of chicken-little handwaving - no specific examples
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thedod are you referring to what I've written on security, tantek, or in general?
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tantek and that kind of thing (handwaving = fear) actually hurts security design
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tantek just the /security additions
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thedod i see.
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tantek security is about focusing on *actual* probable problems, by example, not on making thing "airtight" for all possible theoretical scenarios
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tantek in fact, anyone who is designing security by theory doesn't understand security in practice.
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tantek same thing applies to privacy
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thedod what about the actual problems I mention (after a week of browsing around casually?)
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tantek they're not actual problems unless you can demonstrate an exploit - that's the point
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aaronpk what do you mean you can't log in to the wiki over https?
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thedod I got an exploit off my sleeve:
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tantek good - blog it, then cite it
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thedod I want all my communication with IWC to be secure, and I need to go to http for login
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thedod it
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tantek otherwise, any theoretical security concerns should be moved to a "hypothetical" section, to quarantine them from *actual* problems
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thedod it's in the wiki already
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tantek no IndieAuth supports https
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tantek you might have a specific issue
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tantek see above from aaronpk
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tantek figure it out
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@autiomaa @GrantLemons There is also an underground movement of web developers http://indiewebcamp.com who collaborate on new ways of communication. (twitter.com/_/status/535867808035659777)
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thedod I know it does, but the *implementation* redirects to http
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tantek *which* implementation?
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tantek.com created /DNS_registrar (+35) "r" (view diff)
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thedod indieauth.com
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tantek when in the flow?
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tantek.com created /DNS_provider (+35) "r" (view diff)
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thedod reconstruct the bug: go to httpS://indiewebcamp.com and login
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thedod you get redirected to http
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aaronpk ah I see it
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thedod there's already metadata saying you logged in
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thedod more than that: you're *not* logged in.
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thedod tantek, don't handwave my examples out of existence
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tantek thedod now that ^^^ is a real example
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aaronpk that was a problem with the mediawiki plugin
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thedod and the fact that I only wrote a few is because I'm a single guy who's new here. bot a pro peer-review team
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tantek handwaving can be summarily dismissed
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tantek because examples have the burden of proof
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tantek not the criticism thereof
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tantek thedod - very good to start with only a few
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tantek thedod++
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Loqi thedod has 4 karma
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tantek that's the wiki way
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thedod so you believe we should wait until a system is attack in order to build security for it in hindsight?
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aaronpk and fixed
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thedod aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 611 karma
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tantek incremental++
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tantek thedod - strawman - not what I said
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tantek citations of examples != system is attack[ed]
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Loqi incremental has 4 karma
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thedod while you're at it, maybe fix the thing where webmention.io treats #hashes as separate urls, and embed WebmentionDressing at the wiki :)
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aaronpk that's a liiiitle more complicated :)
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thedod tantek, system is attacked == too late
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tantek of course
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tantek but researches come up with real examples all the time before attacks
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thedod snowden is a military *historion*. we already lost wwIII
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tantek not all attacks are zero days
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thedod let
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tantek is caught up on logs.
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thedod let's ask this: is there any reason, at the age of HSTS, to enable http connections *at all* for a site that can redirect to https?
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thedod Except for "I know it's not OK, I'll fix this soon"
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thedod or maybe even go deeper and say any URL "known to have an https equivalent" should be converted *everywhere*?
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thedod I know "known to be" is a bit of handwaving, but - for example - sites can say in the header link rel=cannonical or something
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tantek thedod - I think you'll find that for many *practical* reasons, there's fairly strong consensus about use as much https as you can. See https://indiewebcamp.com/HTTPS#Why
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tantek note the citations
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tantek it's just time & money - it's not free
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thedod tantek++
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Loqi tantek has 125 karma
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thedod but if we have "security best practices" on the wiki,
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thedod then people who find the time would spend it "right"
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thedod so do you still consider what I wrote irrelevant hadwaving (or a similar adjective)?
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tantek thedod - if it really is a *best* practice, it deserves citations that back that up
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tantek otherwise it fails burden of proof for *best*
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tantek didn't say irrelevant. please stop strawmanning.
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thedod I didn't say that my text suggested specific "best practices" except for "don't have any of the known problems" :),
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tantek if it is a *known* problem, the aspect of knownness means you can provide a citation
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tantek if you can't provide a citation to a "known" problem, is it really known?
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thedod but what I try to say is that there should be a goal to write down such best practices because these things have to be written, not guessed
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thedod I lost you
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thedod all problems under "known problems" are bugs I can recreate
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tantek if you can't cite why something is known, then you can't claim you're avoiding *known* problems
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thedod do you mean the formality is to blog about it and link there? I could do that.
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tantek you shouldn't have to recreate them - if they're already *known*, they should have *existing* citations!
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aaronpk thedod: documenting the https login issue with the wiki was constructive because it pointed to a real problem. now I fixed it. so that was nice.
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tantek if it is *known* you should be able to cite *someone else* who has already written about it
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tantek otherwise it is not *known*
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thedod it was a problem, I *knew* it was a problem, fixing it *proves* it *was* a problem, what citation is needed? the wiki page is the ticket
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aaronparecki.com edited /security (-222) "fixed https login issue on the wiki" (view diff)
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tantek thedod - great - then documenting it like you did was sufficient. no need to call it a "known problem" which asserts at least some degree of broader knowledge than just one person
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thedod What do you suggest? Found problems?
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thedod btw, regarding the problem at withknown, I think kyle has something about it too. brb
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tantek overloading lol
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tantek known problems consist of known known problems, unknown known problems, nothing-to-do-with-known-project known problems
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thedod http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-11-20/line/1416533021874
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thedod does the citation dance
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tantek thedod++
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kylewm not exactly a security problem, just a string matching problem
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tantek speaking of HTTPS issues, I'm consistently getting "Safari can't establish a secure connection to the server "www.facebook.com". " (again, it was like this two days ago too)
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thedod kylewm,
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thedod it's not a security problem per se, but creates more http links on the net we want to take back.
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ben_thatmustbeme thedod, the webmentions you sent me came in as generic mentions of my page instead of comments on a single post, odd
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ben_thatmustbeme just noticed those
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thedod this is not hand waving. this is measured in clickls
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thedod ben_thatmust, let me try again (been a few merges from kylewm since then probably)
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kylewm grr, I don't think I have changed anything that would have affected that :(
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thedod ben_thatmust, {'success': True, 'target': 'https://ben.thatmustbe.me/note/2014/11/19/1/', 'explanation': 'Successful'} but I don't see it at your site
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@jmenglund03 FYI #indieweb folks - #reclaimhosting offers #withknown as part of supported apps. V easy to install (and uses .. http://known.jenniferenglund.net/2014/fyi-indieweb-folks---reclaimhosting-offers-withknown-as-part-of (twitter.com/_/status/535876051080331266)
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ben_thatmustbeme thedod, its queued at the moment
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ben_thatmustbeme https://ben.thatmustbe.me/queue/142
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ben_thatmustbeme the cron job should pick it up in a minute
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/kevinmarks/535874887903358976/14161568 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/site-deaths (webmention)
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tantek excellent, the hosting companies are competing about offering Known
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aaronpk that's awesome
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ben_thatmustbeme cool
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tantek goes to favorite that tweet.
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thedod I still don't understand what known does (although I have an accout)
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tantek what is known?
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Loqi Known-logo.pngKnown is an open publishing / community platform project http://indiewebcamp.com/Known
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aaronparecki.com edited /Known (+2) "space after image for dfn" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme darn, for some reason it thinks thats a generic mention, not a comment on my post, strange
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@kevinmarks » @dweinberger: "APIs are magic" - my brief appreciation of them https://medium.com/@dweinberger/apis-are-magic-261719107e09 « except when they go away http://indiewebcamp.com/site-deaths (twitter.com/_/status/535874887903358976)
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thedod ben_thatmust, let me see my log
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ben_thatmustbeme i think it might be on my end
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ben_thatmustbeme i'm testing a bit
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thedod it says the target's the thing
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thedod I mean the thing is the url
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/kevinmarks/535874887903358976/89171096 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/site-deaths (webmention)
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KevinMarks__ I suppose "the API vanishes" is a form of magic too
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@kevinmarks RT @jmenglund03: FYI #indieweb folks - #reclaimhosting offers #withknown as part of supported apps. V easy to install (and uses .. http://t… (twitter.com/_/status/535880380063031296)
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@ShaneHudson RT @jmenglund03: FYI #indieweb folks - #reclaimhosting offers #withknown as part of supported apps. V easy to install (and uses .. http://t… (twitter.com/_/status/535880881471500288)
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tantek KevinMarks: heh indeed. that would be the pithy response ;)(
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thedod tantek, I've read /Known [again] and I still don't get it: it's a platform (like my redwind), the only difference is that I *think* it was supposed to show all my tweets (and doesn't).
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tantek KevinMarks: ok I'm borrowing that ;)
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tantek Known doesn't PESOS, it POSSEs.
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thedod ah
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thedod so it's like "redwind if you don't have one"?
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thedod I also don't see something like "contacts" where I can say @kylewm and it knows the domain
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thedod or even someone else from withknown
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/repost/twitter/kevinmarks/535874887903358976/535879406620004352 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/site-deaths (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/repost/twitter/kevinmarks/535874887903358976/535880422178058240 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/site-deaths (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/kevinmarks/535874887903358976/961661 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/site-deaths (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/kevinmarks/535874887903358976/32572068 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/site-deaths (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/kevinmarks/535874887903358976/11628 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/site-deaths (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/kevinmarks/535874887903358976/39007560 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/site-deaths (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/repost/twitter/kevinmarks/535874887903358976/535880093164662785 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/site-deaths (webmention)
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@t @dweinberger: “APIs are magic” @t: Especially at disappearing acts: http://indiewebcamp.com/site-deaths magic-hat-tip: @KevinMarks (ttk.me t4ZF1) (twitter.com/_/status/535882926601560064)
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@edsu RT @t: @dweinberger: “APIs are magic” @t: Especially at disappearing acts: http://indiewebcamp.com/site-deaths magic-hat-tip: @KevinMarks (ttk.me t4ZF1) (twitter.com/_/status/535883107355082752)
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@nypl_labs RT @t: @dweinberger: “APIs are magic” @t: Especially at disappearing acts: http://indiewebcamp.com/site-deaths magic-hat-tip: @KevinMarks (ttk.me t4ZF1) (twitter.com/_/status/535883188611330048)
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tantek thedod I don't think /Known supports a /nicknames-cache yet
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tantek maybe file a github feature request for it?
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@tolloid RT @t: @dweinberger: “APIs are magic” @t: Especially at disappearing acts: http://indiewebcamp.com/site-deaths magic-hat-tip: @KevinMarks (ttk.me t4ZF1) (twitter.com/_/status/535883367309660160)
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tantek hah - 2 more RTs and it will have more than the original tweet ;)
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@ian_hardy RT @t: @dweinberger: “APIs are magic” @t: Especially at disappearing acts: http://indiewebcamp.com/site-deaths magic-hat-tip: @KevinMarks (ttk.me t4ZF1) (twitter.com/_/status/535883922102833152)
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dubiousdod.org edited /security (+170) "/* Reproducible problems */" (view diff)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/repost/twitter/t/535882926601560064/535883107355082752 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/site-deaths (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/repost/twitter/t/535882926601560064/535883367309660160 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/site-deaths (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/repost/twitter/t/535882926601560064/535883188611330048 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/site-deaths (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/repost/twitter/t/535882926601560064/535883922102833152 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/site-deaths (webmention)
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kylewm so noisy
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/t/535882926601560064/90028017 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/site-deaths (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/t/535882926601560064/29490903 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/site-deaths (webmention)
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snarfed kylewm: heh, good timing. i actually added https://github.com/aaronpk/webmention.io/issues/22 to my todo list just a few min ago
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thedod one problem with @names (I also see that at twister, diaspora, etc.) is that there's no way to tell @alice at my cache from @alice in twitter.
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reedstrm Is that everyone retweeting Kevin's "API magic" tweet?
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kylewm snarfed: how can you without Loqi source?
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snarfed kylewm: https://github.com/aaronpk/indiewebcamp-irc-logs/issues/9 told me to do it in wm.io, not in loqi
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thedod Maybe we should have a "long form" @[twitter]kylwm @[irc]kylem and @kylwm means @[me]kylewm (it's a silent [me])
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thedod then when you tweet something, or push to diaspora, you know how to translate this soup
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kylewm snarfed: oh! makes sense
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kylewm thedod: what problem are you trying to solve?
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KevinMarks__ Known has a nicknames cache for users of the current known site
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KevinMarks__ Adding a broader one will likely be part of the reader refactoring
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thedod kylewm, namespace clashes.
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thedod When I say something about meeting a friend from twister and one from twitter, they're both called @joe
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thedod or @[twister]joe is @[twitter]joeblow
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thedod and on my addressbook he's @dude
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kylewm thedod: and the concern is that they are two different people? or the same person with accounts on different services?
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tantek what is twister?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "twister" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=twister
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thedod short answer: twister.net.co
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tantek Twitter has pretty much won the @-space, except among photographers, who seem to prefer IG's @-space.
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thedod should I put it there as a stub?
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tantek thedod yes please!
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tantek is it a silo for notes?
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/t/535882926601560064/7621482 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/site-deaths (webmention)
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thedod how do you say "this is a stub?"
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tantek {{stub}}
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tantek what is create a new page?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "create a new page" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=create+a+new+page
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tantek.com created /create_a_new_page (+25) "r" (view diff)
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kylewm yeah I pretty much add people based on their twitter name and IRC nick, haven't had a collision yet...
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tantek what is a stub page?
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thedod thanks
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "stub page" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=stub+page
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tantek.com created /stub_page (+26) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /start_a_page (+90) "see also wikifying" (view diff)
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dubiousdod.org created /twister (+537) "Initial handwaving" (view diff)
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tantek lol. thedod - you did cite their home page - that's not handwaving ;)
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thedod about the censorship resistant bit, I'm sure they say it somewhere, but it's quite obvius from the code anyway :)
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tantek.com edited /twister (+30) "dfn, see also" (view diff)
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tantek what is twister?
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Loqi http://indiewebcamp.com/twister
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tantek.com edited /twister (+0) ". at end of dfn" (view diff)
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tantek what is twister?
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kylewm.com created /Twister (+21) "Redirected page to [[twister]]" (view diff)
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Loqi Twister is a "fully decentralized P2P microblogging platform leveraging from the free software implementations of Bitcoin and BitTorrent protocols"[1] http://indiewebcamp.com/twister
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tantek better
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thedod What we do today is never forgotten (both google and NSA log what they can), but we're not *aware* of it. In twister, all your mistakes are in-your-face forever
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tantek what is decentralized?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "decentralized" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=decentralized
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tantek heh
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tantek what is P2P?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "P2P" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=P2P
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tantek hmm
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tantek what is microblogging?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "microblogging" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=microblogging
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tantek lol!
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tantek what is a platform?
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Loqi A platform in the context of software/services is a collection of related APIs/protocols/formats that can be used to build a site/app http://indiewebcamp.com/platform
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reedstrm Loqi - import m-w.com
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Loqi dude
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thedod Loqi's answer to what is decentalized should be: there are answers all around the web for this
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tantek reedstrm I think you just got told by the bot.
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reedstrm well, for decentralized. Some of the rest would have indieweb spins.
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reedstrm indeed
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tantek what is free software?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "free software" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=free+software
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tantek what is Bitcoin?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Bitcoin" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Bitcoin
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tantek heh
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tantek what is BitTorrent?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "BitTorrent" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=BitTorrent
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tantek alrighty then.
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thedod wow smack into normative-ville
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thedod kids at home won't believe me where I'm hanging out :)
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tantek thedod - more like smack into jargon-ville.
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tantek if a page doesn't exist for it, it's likely some form of jargon
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thedod on a scale from jargon and a force of nature, I'd say bitcoin - for example - scores 9
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tantek.com edited /twister (+15) "linky linky, make it bleed" (view diff)
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thedod wow. censorship could be a fun page
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tantek fun is one of our /principles
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dubiousdod.org created /censorship (+25) "Created page with "Intentionally left blank."" (view diff)
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reedstrm thedod: bitcoin blipped into the mass media briefly this summer. during the silly/slow news season. Looks like it's back into techno obscurity to me.
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reedstrm The new hotness is tap-to-pay-so-apple-can-track-me :-)
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thedod reedstrm, you have a point, but for far more complex reasons. e.g. bitcoin is mega-trackable
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thedod also, the time to confirm a transaction (sometimes >1 hour) makes it unfit for coffee etc.
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thedod so Adi Shamir says it would become a currency for conversion, savings, and large payments
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thedod (e.g immigrants sending money home)
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thedod I kinda agree
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thedod I still think it's cool for stuff like servers, voip, and other services
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thedod the "blip" was also because there was a *huge* volume of contraband trade (which is as stupid as doing it in a police station)
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tantek thedod do you accept bitcoin on your personal site?
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thedod I used to accept bitcoin on a site, but for complex reasons, I don't anymore
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thedod why?
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thedod it wasn't my site. it officially didn't belong to someone *else*
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tantek did or didn't?
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thedod officially, it didn't :)
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tantek we have a whole page on /payment and so far no one has bothered to document BItcoin which makes me wonder if it matters to indieweb folks
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kylewm http://bret.io/##%C9%83
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kylewm tjat
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kylewm there's one at least :)
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thedod I could write something about accepting bitcoin,
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tantek though if you don't do so on your indieweb site, then it's a bit off topic
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tantek that's why I asked
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thedod the question is whether it's donations or you're selling something (where it *matters* whether you got paid or not)
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tantek would be interesting to know the challenges you've run into - the "complex reasons"
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tantek the question should anyone with an indieweb site care about bitcoin? and if so, where are those with indiewebsites that accept them?
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tantek so far it looks like no and 0
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@finitor Memento mori http://indiewebcamp.com/site-deaths (twitter.com/_/status/535894689954942976)
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ben_thatmustbeme thedod, it processed correctly that time
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ben_thatmustbeme was an error in my site
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thedod so should I try again?
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ben_thatmustbeme i re-ran those, it should be fine now
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thedod ah. I see them both now :)
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ben_thatmustbeme a mess up on my end had them coming in a generic "mentions"
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ben_thatmustbeme which by the way tantek, you had asked a while back if anyone tracks mentions the the homepage URL, anything the system doesn't recognize as a comment/like/mention of a specific post, it just dumps to that "Recent Mentions" section on my side bar
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thedod btw, speeking of generic mentions (and *what* they mention): at a blog there's "about", and "all posts". In twitter it's the same page, but "me" should be an "about" page. When you mention me you don't mention "stuff I've been saying lately".
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tantek so "recent mentions" = home page mentions + other 404 targets on your domain
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ben_thatmustbeme not 404 targets but other 200 targets that don't track comments etc, like my micropub client, search pages, etc
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ben_thatmustbeme i never ended up fully testing that though since its rarely been used
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ben_thatmustbeme actually (upon reviewing it) its anything determined to be a "Mention" too, not in-reply-to
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bret i accept bitcoin and dogecoin because sometimes people have them to give to me and it was super easy to add. That being said, I dont really use it that much
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tantek bret - do you have a payment page or something on your personal web site where you accept them?
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thedod bret, it's easier when you're not selling something. You just post an account number (maybe QR code).
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thedod The problem is if you need to know whether the customer has paid or not. For that - each transaction needs a different account number
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thedod now it's easy to generate them, but you need the private key (you keep at home)
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thedod so what people do is simply keep a "stack" of pregenerated accounts, and pop one per deal
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thedod You can get DoSed out of all account numbers, but that's childish :)
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tantek are these techniques documented anywhere?
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thedod I think so. brb
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bret tantek: i just have the addresses in my "elsewhere" section next my other rel=me's
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thedod https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Securing_online_services#Server_hacking By creating a wallet with plenty of keys on your own local computer and then uploading the encrypted version to the server, you ensure that whilst the server can accept payments only your own computer can make them, even though they share the same balance.
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bret yeah im not selling anything, at least, as a storefront
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bret just a give me moniez link
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reedstrm tipjar
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bret gifts lol
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thedod Did it ever work, bret? I never tried it
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reedstrm So, can I just dump bitcoin into bret's account, and he can't tell who sent it?
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thedod reedstrm, maybe *bret* can't, but Adi Shamir has tricks ;)
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reedstrm thinks regularly scheduled anon payments matching external events that bret has nothing to do with ...
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tantek bret - perhaps you could document your technique for accepting Bitcoin on your personal site on a /Bitcoin page? And add yourself to a section "IndieWeb Examples" ?
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bret sure
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thedod this is why it's only good for donations, because if you pay bret and I see the transaction I can go "hey bret I sent you money" at your expense
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ben_thatmustbeme damn, i was trying to work out some way to make tagging of people in an image work just by some markup in the commenter's post and javascript
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tantek no JS needed
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tantek or do you mean UI?
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ben_thatmustbeme UI
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KevinMarks_ I put a bitcoin link on one of my posts, nevr got anything
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ben_thatmustbeme you could do it without JS
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: server-side image maps FTW :)
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reedstrm So, the real indie web interest might be hosters that accept bitcoin. Which exist.
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tantek reedstrm: that would also be worth mentioning on a /Bitcoin page
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek, I know, I figured it would be more like a patch for those that didn't want to add server side patches, just include JS
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ben_thatmustbeme it was an exercise in creating the maps via js though
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thedod reedstrm, true that. if they also accept HiddenID, we can actually have anonymous indie sites :)
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ben_thatmustbeme no harm in investigating different ways about it, in any case I may set it up to include linking to sections of my photos via JS highlight / media-frag bit
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ben_thatmustbeme and just not use those for the webmention tagging
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thedod tantek, "ethical" question. Indie are supposed to be personal sites. Now what if there's a community (knitting club, biker gang), how does their site appear on the "indie map"? can they have an h-card? webmentions?
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/kevinmarks/535874887903358976/17071737 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/site-deaths (webmention)
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ben_thatmustbeme thedod, i don't see why not, there's no requirement of it being a single person
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thedod Specifically https://zzzen.com/hiddenid
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KevinMarks_ known has several multiuser sites
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thedod I want to install the WP ICW plugin there, but "who" are we?
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ben_thatmustbeme i think they were discussing this in one of the session an IWC UK
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ben_thatmustbeme I only caught part of the discussion stream though that day
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thedod the "venue" zzzen.com *happens* to belog to my wife and me
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thedod but it's actually a bunch of people I don't really know :)
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thedod (I know *some*)
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KevinMarks_ here, indie bitcoin link: http://www.kevinmarks.com/moneyandtechlaunch.html
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tantek KevinMarks - add to /Bitcoin#IndieWeb_Examples :)
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tantek thedod - I think the question has come up before, for independent businesses as well, and the general vibe I've seen is that anything that encourages at least some degree of independence is incrementally good
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tantek part of the challenge is to not get "stuck" in thinking each site *does* have multiple people, because then you go down the Diaspora path, where people end up not having their own sites, care less, and stuff is lost / not maintained again.
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thedod well, independence we don't lack. Our sysadmin is a "don't call us, we'll call you" kinda guy/girl
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tantek e.g. what happens when a couple with a shared "family" site gets divorced? how do they handle disentangling and maintaining web identities?
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tantek thus there's a strong encouragement to enable everyone to have and be their own
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tantek *more* independent
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thedod it's true, but hiddenid is more like a "home for runaway kids" thing. They keep running away, so in a way we're usedf to it :)
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tantek sure, ephemeral identity has its own (dis)advantages and trade-offs
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ben_thatmustbeme i think when its a centralized/community site it would be better as sort of a syndication target fro personal sites
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tantek agreed ben_thatmustbeme
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thedod anyway, I guess the answer is "install the plugin and see"
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tantek I do know that Known itself is designed to be multiuser even on a single site
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tantek each site/install has its own account system
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thedod ben_thatmust, the problem with hiddenid is that the users are not 24/7 online. they need a "silo". On the other hand, they're less touchy about their "posessions" more careful not to be *accused* of saying stuff :)
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thedod the way around this is that since they have SSO, they can put stuff in several silos, and [hopefully] aggregators will let you keep track of the "trail" they leave behind
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thedod it's indiewebcamp for people with a weak sense of self
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rascul is hiddenid a tor specific thing?
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tantek what is hiddenid?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "hiddenid" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=hiddenid
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gRegor` what is Tor?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Tor" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Tor
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tantek thedod - are these aspects of hiddenid documented anywhere?
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thedod rascul, you need tor to have a HiddenID (normally, you just run a tor browser and you have it
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thedod )
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thedod tantek, first "serious" mention of IWC vs HiddenID is a comment: https://zzzen.com/hiddenid/?p=74#comment-24
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thedod I wrote https://dubiousdod.org/indie/2014/11/hiddenid
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tantek cool, perhaps start the /hiddenid page with a link to your blog post?
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rascul wants to read /hiddenid
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ben.thatmustbe.me edited /2014/Online/Micropub (+63) "i use "operation" and not "action"" (view diff)
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thedod ok
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gregorlove.com created /Tor (+183) "stub" (view diff)
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gRegor` Started /Tor. Feel free to update, as well.
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gregorlove.com created /tor (+17) "r" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com created /The_Onion_Router (+17) "r" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com created /Onion_Router (+17) "r" (view diff)
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bret lol my dogecoin service i was using go haxed
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bret dang someone stole my less than penny
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@ricmac I have checked in with #indieweb on IRC over past year, but otherwise haven't used it. Will peck around #freenode again (ref @freenodestaff) (twitter.com/_/status/535909696725475329)
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bret.io edited /payment (+200) "/* Implementations */ Added info about payment links" (view diff)
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gRegor` wow. much hacking. so cryptocurrency.
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tantek what is dogecoin?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "dogecoin" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=dogecoin
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tantek bret - perhaps an issue / criticism to note re: dogecoin?
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bret its an issue with pretty much all crypto currencies. physical storage and security of valued private keys
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@jmenglund03 #indieweb talk at #opened14. Excellent. (twitter.com/_/status/535912001709813760)
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@sglassmeyer The Indie Web http://indiewebcamp.com/ (twitter.com/_/status/535912061776433152)
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KevinMarks_ almost indieweb http://dig.csail.mit.edu/breadcrumbs/node/71
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tantek bret - then *definitely* worth documenting
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tantek KevinMarks: MIT.edu is quite far from IndieWeb
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tantek by /node you probably found some old Drupal
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KevinMarks_ the post is "give yourself a URI"
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KevinMarks_ but then gives a very bad way of doing so
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tantek meh
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@georgekroner via @sglassmeyer "IndieWeb is a people-focused alternative to the 'corporate web.' Your content is yours." http://indiewebcamp.com/ #opened14 (twitter.com/_/status/535912723616645120)
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tantek that opening definition has resonated with a lot of people
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@jeannettemelee RT @georgekroner: via @sglassmeyer "IndieWeb is a people-focused alternative to the 'corporate web.' Your content is yours." http://t.co/9U… (twitter.com/_/status/535913059110621184)
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@trevor_c RT @georgekroner: via @sglassmeyer "IndieWeb is a people-focused alternative to the 'corporate web.' Your content is yours." http://t.co/9U… (twitter.com/_/status/535913085525962752)
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@dubsak RT @georgekroner: via @sglassmeyer "IndieWeb is a people-focused alternative to the 'corporate web.' Your content is yours." http://t.co/9U… (twitter.com/_/status/535914662249111552)
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dubiousdod.org created /HiddenID (+1533) "Initial version" (view diff)
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dubiousdod.org edited /HiddenID (+1) "url typo" (view diff)
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thedod bloody hell the wordpress site itself is down :(
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thedod goes hunting for a sysadmin
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aaronpk shh.. nobody say "error establishing a database connection"
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thedod I hope it's ok (except for the site being down)
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thedod A very direct form of "no": ERROR 1045 (28000): Access denied for user ... (using password: YES)
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KevinMarks_ tantek - what should I link to to describe your contact work?
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KevinMarks_ http://tantek.com/2014/120/b1/markup-people-focused-mobile-communication ?
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ben_thatmustbeme KevinMarks_ that would be my guess, i believe he has linked to that before
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tantek KevinMarks: you can link to the overview
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tantek http://tantek.com/2014/067/b1/building-blocks-people-focused-mobile-communication
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tantek if it's for a more "conceptual" audience, then the first post: http://tantek.com/2013/338/b1/people-focused-mobile-communication-experience
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tantek which has a proper intro, explanations why, scenarios etc.
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tantek what is comms?
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Loqi communication in the context of the indieweb refers to using your personal website as a starting point and potentially way for people to communicate with you http://indiewebcamp.com/comms
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@TheRealDod Remember when phones were dumb and people were smart? http://tantek.com/2013/338/b1/people-focused-mobile-communication-experience #MustRead by @t #IndieWebCamp (twitter.com/_/status/535925275964354560)
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thedod Still waiting for admins to wake up (European TZ), but if you hace tor, my HiddenID is up now at http://ll3jl6geer5ezsqn.onion/
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thedod it's actually a single-user openid provider
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thedod My "normative" one is https://dubiousdod.org/openid but it's an old phone-hostile design
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thedod Our fork is Mustache-themeable. Even a dead lady can tweak those :) https://github.com/hidden-id/hiddenid-themes/tree/master/themes/blavatsky#blavatsky-hiddenid-theme
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fiatjaf I didn't know P2P, decnetralization, anonymous things and the NSA were topics related to IWC
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fiatjaf are they?
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mko I wouldn't generally describe them as directly related, no.
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mko However, IndieWeb members might want to implement anonymity and related technologies as it relates to their IndieWeb site.
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reedstrm fiatjaf: mko: not even decentralized?
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mko Depends on what kind of decentralization we're talking about. If you're talking about moving to a distributed, decentralized peer-to-peer model, I wouldn't describe that as "IndieWeb" (compare The "Indienet" espoused by Ind.ie with the network of Independent Websites as espoused by IndieWebCamp).
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mko Decentralization in the sense of removing the dependency upon silos and owning your own data is very much directly related to IndieWebCamp.
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reedstrm Yup: that's my take
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mko I would actually refer to the second one more as "Democratization" than "Decentralization" because it's more about who owns and controls the existence and flow of the data.
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mko Hosted Known, for example, is technically a "centralized" service in that everyone is using a namespaced instance on a central silo, but it is a more democratized service than silos like Facebook or Twitter as the users have significantly more control over their data.
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mko Note: by "Hosted Known", I am specifically referring to the instances of Known hosted on withknown.com (i.e. https://mko.withknown.com and similar sites).
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reedstrm tempted to c&p irc log into the wiki page as a starting point :-)
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mko What is decentralization
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "decentralization" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=decentralization
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mko What is democratization?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "democratization" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=democratization
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gRegor` What is Mustache?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Mustache" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Mustache
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tantek been thinking about archives recently, in the year/month personal site sense, and started to look at what silos do
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tantek looks like /Facebook has a vertical clickable timeline of years in the top right corner of your profile page
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tantek or actually, anyone's profile page
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reedstrm I think you can opt out of public access to that.
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tantek when you click a year, it scrolls to the "highlights" for that year (whatever that means)
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tantek and then expands the vertical timeline widget thingy to show months as well
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@kevinmarks @jason_pontin in the #indieweb we're working on gathering these disparate comments into end of post comments http://known.kevinmarks.com/2014/the-indieweb-really-brings-back-memories-of-the-excitement-and (twitter.com/_/status/535939080299634688)
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@mathewi RT @kevinmarks: @jason_pontin in the #indieweb we're working on gathering these disparate comments into end of post comments http://t.co/v2… (twitter.com/_/status/535939131587985409)
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tantek when you click on a month, it loads the most recent posts in that month, and you have to scroll down (infinite scroll) to see earlier in that month
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tantek problem with that is of course the usual infinite scroll fragility - JS - timeouts, long load times etc.
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tantek and all of this is done with JS - no separate links for archives for a year, nor archives for a month
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tantek anybody else see anything different?
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tantek (of course some other silos, e.g. Twitter, have no navigable online by year/month archives)
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gRegor` Yeah, I really like the Facebook timeline thing for easy of going back in time, but dislike the JS/lack of permalink structure
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gRegor` s/easy/ease/
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Loqi gRegor` meant to say: Yeah, I really like the Facebook timeline thing for ease of going back in time, but dislike the JS/lack of permalink structure
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tantek which means if you ever click on something accidentally and navigate away, then navigate back, your entire scroll history / archive nav state is lost
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aaronpk Once I refactor to not have the post type in the URL I look forward to having fully hackable URLs
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gRegor` I don't know if you can opt out of it, but what's displayed is based on FB privacy settings, of course. If tantek didn't have access to anything I posted in 2008, he wouldn't see 2008 listed in the years, I think.
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aaronpk I'm pretty happy with my month and date URLs already
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tantek gRegor`: uh - I think you might be giving FB too much credit
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gRegor` ?
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tantek last I checked, you can scroll back in your "friends" archives from before you "friended" them
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tantek and typically you didn't have access to those before, e.g. old photos
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gRegor` I'm talking about per-post privacy settings.
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tantek and it's a frequent reason people "stress" about friending someone - do I want them to see older photos of me?
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gRegor` But yes, I don't think Facebook has time-based privacy settings.
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tantek so the default case is, people see odler things
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tantek s/odler/older
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Loqi tantek meant to say: so the default case is, people see older things
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tantek hmm - should we come up with a more specific name for such dated archives?
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tantek year/month archives?
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tantek trying to figure out a way to create two separate pages for the two concepts captured in this definition:
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tantek what are archives?
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Loqi archive refers to date-grouped sets of indieweb site posts (a common form of navigation among posts), or a copy of a web page made at a particular point in time http://indiewebcamp.com/archives
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KevinMarks Twitter has downloadable year month archives eg kevinmarks.com/tweets
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tantek but that's more of the *second* meaning of archive
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tantek it's a copy (download)
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gRegor` What do you mean by 'dated archives'? Aren't all archives dated? You mean the URL structure of the archives?
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KevinMarks Hm, also I need to download again
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tantek gRegor`: the first meaning
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tantek "date-grouped sets of indieweb site posts (a common form of navigation among posts)"
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gRegor` oops, missed that.
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tantek vs. "copy of a web page made at a particular point in time." - i.e. a "web archive file", warc etc.
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tantek which maybe is more of a "mirror" or "snapshot"?
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gRegor` Semi-related, I have thought about adding a hook to the "Save page now" on Wayback Machine after posting an article. https://archive.org/web/
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tantek which usage is more common? archive as live date-based nav? or archive as copy of something at a certain point in time?
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tantek gRegor`: perhaps with a 24hr delay to give yourself time to make corrections
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gRegor` good idea
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aaronpk posse to archive.org?
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tantek yes
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tantek as well as mirror everything you link to, to archive.orgt
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gRegor` Ooh
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tantek wikipedia seems to prefer the first definition http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archive
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gRegor` Like I bookmark example.com, and tell Wayback to archive it at the same time?
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tantek yes
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tantek "accumulation of historical records, or the physical place they are located.[1] Archives contain primary source documents that have accumulated over the course of an individual or organization's lifetime, and are kept to show the function of that person or organization."
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gRegor` Cool. I like it.
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tantek note: *historical records*, *primary source documents*, *an individual*, *the function of that person*
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tantek that strongly resonates with the first meaning of archive
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tantek rather than the second
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gregorlove.com edited /User:Gregorlove.com (+222) "/* Interests */ Wayback Machine hook" (view diff)
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tantek learns the term fonds http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fonds
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aaronparecki.com edited /User:Aaronparecki.com (+180) "wayback machine hook" (view diff)
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gRegor` What is archive.org?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "archive.org" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=archive.org
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gRegor` What is The Wayback Machine
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Wayback Machine" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Wayback+Machine