#indiewebcamp 2014-12-11

2014-12-11 UTC
simonv3, KartikPrabhu, shiflett, KartikPrabhu1, wolftune and yakker joined the channel
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KartikPrabhu1 boom! original-of is live! try: https://kartikprabhu.com/original-of/?url=https://twitter.com/kartik_prabhu/status/542347630056329216 or just https://kartikprabhu.com/original-of/ for a form :D
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@kartik_prabhu @WarrenEllis in http://morning.computer/2014/11/political-wizard/ A possible refutation of my rant: https://kartikprabhu.com/article/science-in-science-fiction more: https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/magic-dirt-warrenellis (twitter.com/_/status/542347630056329216)
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KartikPrabhu reason for using url parameter: auto can insert full url by copy-paste and works simply with form input :D
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KartikPrabhu thanks finchd bear and tantek for suggestions
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finchd you're welcome, maybe I'll get my own site up soon, since my finals are this week....
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@BillSeitz RT @rhiaro: .@benwerd is talking about @withknown at @techmeetup this evening. I didn't know Known targeted education #indieweb http://t.co… (twitter.com/_/status/542842861172318208)
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KartikPrabhu oh yeah it is finals week.... all the best
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KartikPrabhu what is POSSE-post discovery?
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Loqi POSSE-Post-Discovery is a way to find the canonical version of a post when a syndicated copy does not contain a link to the original https://indiewebcamp.com/posse-post-discovery
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KartikPrabhu feels good to implement small ideas on own site :)
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KartikPrabhu another idea a site could advertise the original-of endpoint and bridgy could use it directly for POSSE-post-discovery instead of scanning feeds? cc: snarfed kylewm
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: interesting, but not a priority for us. scanning feeds has the benefit of working with all existing sites :P
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: maybe feed-scanning could be a fallback just a thought
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snarfed maybe!
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snarfed what's the problem you're trying to solve? (ie that feed scanning doesn't solve)
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KartikPrabhu human people doing POSSE-post discovery :)
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snarfed ah. i vaguely recall seeing this discussed before, and the conclusion was, for most sites, just looking visually usually worked
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KartikPrabhu might could be.
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KartikPrabhu of course no need to change bridgy on account of me :)
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snarfed also, bridgy isn't a human :P
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snarfed np!
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KartikPrabhu ha! yes. I was thinking it would make it faster if it used the endpoint
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snarfed it would! but it doesn't really need to be
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KartikPrabhu true
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snarfed the best code i write is usually the code i *avoid* writing :P
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KartikPrabhu haha...
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snarfed https://twitter.com/schnarfed/status/456913166338129921
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@schnarfed The best code I ever write is the code I avoid writing at all. (https://snarfed.org/2014-04-17_9081) (twitter.com/_/status/456913166338129921)
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tantek KartikPrabhu: how about /original-post-discovery ?
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tantek feed scanning doesn't work for anything that has fallen off the time/items window of the feed
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tantek.com edited /posse-post-discovery (+34) "link * [[original-post-discovery]]" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /original-post-discovery (-53) "/* See Also */ posse post discovery" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /original-post-discovery (+81) "/* Implementations */ move live demo link to p3k here" (view diff)
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pwcc @tantek any reason XML sitemaps aren't available for sioriginal-post-discovery?
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KartikPrabhu pwcc: because XML
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KartikPrabhu !tell tantek hmm didn't know about /original-post-discovery . would be useful to implement for replying and so on like p3k does
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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pwcc KartikPrabhu ha, you make an excellent, excellent point
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KartikPrabhu also do people publish XML sitemaps anymore?
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pwcc Hmm, not sure. I've got one but would love to know the stats.
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gRegor` What is original-of?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "original-of" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=original-of
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gRegor` ^ KartikPrabhu
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KartikPrabhu hey take that back
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gRegor` Nuh uh
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@airbornesurfer Why I Joined the IndieWeb Movement http://airbornesurfer.com/2014/10/why-i-joined-the-indieweb-movement/ (twitter.com/_/status/542914128235728896)
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Loqi [mention] http://bavatuesdays.com/indie-web-domains/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (pingback)
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Loqi [mention] http://bavatuesdays.com/indie-web-domains/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (pingback)
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tantek good evening #indiewebcamp!
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Loqi tantek: KartikPrabhu left you a message 5 hours, 40 minutes ago: hmm didn't know about /original-post-discovery . would be useful to implement for replying and so on like p3k does
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tantek indeed KartikPrabhu!
j12t, cweiske, reidab, simonv3_, wowaname, friedcell, elima, KartikPrabhu, csarven, LauraJ, verdi_, loic_m, petermolnar, elf-pavlik, stream7, Sebastien-L, michielbdejong, sanduhrs, gavinc_, gavinc__, simonv3, mlncn-agaric, danlyke_, Jihaisse, reedstrm, wolftune, KevinMarks, veselosky, gRegor`, shiflett, tantek and chalettu joined the channel
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: querying an original-of lookup endpoint was the proof of concept posse-post-discovery for bridgy! see https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/125 for deets
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Loqi [mention] http://kenbauer.withknown.com/2014/saying-goodbye-to-my-lms linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (webmention)
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aaronpk re: yesterday's SPOF discussion...
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aaronpk everything is a SPOF, whether it's a system you've built yourself or something you're relying on like bridgy
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aaronpk and no service or system is permanent
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aaronpk so the best you can do is own your data, and treat things like bridgy or your own version as plumbing that can be replaced, where you're not relying on it to store things or as public identifiers
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aaronpk danlyke: GWG: gRegor`: snarfed: tantek: ^^
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bret reply context illegal in spain? http://news.slashdot.org/story/14/12/11/1336257/google-news-to-shut-down-in-spain-on-december-16th
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bret "The decision of Google comes as response to new Spanish legislation that gives publishers the right to claim compensation for republishing any part of their content. "
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bret :/
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aaronpk wow
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bret aaronpk: yes no maybe: what do you think about requiring the bearer token be in the http header for multipart micropub requests?
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bret i.e. only allowing bearer tokens in the body for form encoded
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aaronpk it's easier to parse that way?
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aaronpk I dunno, if you just make a browser form it'll send it as one of the parts
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fiatjaf bret: we should ignore these laws.
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snarfed aaronpk: well said!
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snarfed shades of https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/442017139630039041
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: it makes a nice slogan "damn the man, fight the silos" but they are handy as plumbing (twitter.com/_/status/442017139630039041)
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tantek good day #indiewebcamp!
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KartikPrabhu now you can embed "buy" buttons in tweets https://twitter.com/amandapalmer/status/543134137239216129
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@amandapalmer the first 100 people to buy "the art of asking" using this historic tweet will get a signed manuscript draft page! https://gumroad.com/l/amandapalmer (twitter.com/_/status/543134137239216129)
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aaronpk from gumroad!
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aaronpk that was several months ago? http://techcrunch.com/2014/09/08/twitter-commerce-buy-now/
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@markymark @schnarfed let's discuss it on the indieweb ;) (twitter.com/_/status/543141022910656512)
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KartikPrabhu oh first time I have seen one I guess
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ben_thatmustbeme hello all
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ben_thatmustbeme for those interested in person-tag, do you think it makes sense to break tags up into their own post or are they just a comment with additional features
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ben_thatmustbeme in other words, thoughts on doing tag & comment in one reply
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tantek the design deliberately allows for either publishing model
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ben_thatmustbeme okay
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tantek the question is, how do you want such a post to *look* on *your* site
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tantek figure out that visual design first, and then the markup will follow accordingly
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ben_thatmustbeme yeah, I know. Thats what i was trying to think of
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ben_thatmustbeme its more setting up storage in the *ducks for cover* database
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ben_thatmustbeme i figure i'll insert a couple test tags first, and get my display working first, then worry about receiving them correctly
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tantek storage (AKA plumbing) first is poor design methodology
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tantek sketch out how you want it to look first, even mock it up with a static HTML version
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tantek and then work backwards to storage
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ben_thatmustbeme well i have a plan on that, i am thinking it will just be as a standard comment with a note saying that they tagged John Smith in this photo
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ben_thatmustbeme hmm, that actually makes things even simpler now that i think about it
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tantek is this for displaying others' comments with tags, or posting your own replies with tags?
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ben_thatmustbeme tags are just extra features on a comment
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ben_thatmustbeme displaying others' comments with tags
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ben_thatmustbeme posting my own i haven't looked at yet
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ben_thatmustbeme i tend to do those just as another "post" with more options. It will be pulling in the tagged image that should be interesting. Have not dealt with that in the past
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: there are three variants: 1) your own post (e.g. perhaps a photo post) with tags (perhaps people/area tags), 2) your own *reply* tag post that is tagging *someone else's* post, 3) *others* comments with tags on *your posts*, that tag your post.
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tantek which variant are you working on first?
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ben_thatmustbeme 1
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ben_thatmustbeme wait, no, i was thinking of 3
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ben_thatmustbeme i was thinking of 1 and 3 combined
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tantek that seems like a harder one to start with
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tantek whereas 1 by itself is worthy of doing
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tantek and less work than 3
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ben_thatmustbeme there is a 4th actually
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ben_thatmustbeme others tagging me in other's posts
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tantek yes - that notification goes to your home page
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ben_thatmustbeme hmm, definitely given me some food for thought though
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tantek do you have a page on your site where you view of a list of webmentions sent to your home page?
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ben_thatmustbeme its not just my homepage, but they would show up in the list of "mentions"
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ben_thatmustbeme basically since I don't display mentions of a post, anything that comes through as a "mention" (not "comment" or "like") just goes in to that general bin for now
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ben_thatmustbeme I haven't worked out anything more for UI
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tantek ah - this might be a good use-case for separating out home page mentions as mentions of *you* rather than just mentions of a *post*.
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ben_thatmustbeme indeed
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ben_thatmustbeme i already store that, or rather, I store what *post* things mention, so that if a static page (like my WM client) gets mentioned its noted as that same type, but it would be a good idea to have just the homepage as something special in that
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tantek right
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tantek what I have not quite worked through (but have mentioned in IRC in the past week or so) is how to create an "untag" post to untag yourself from a post or a photo etc.
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ben_thatmustbeme indeed, i had been thinking about that too
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tantek the simple/obvious thing is a reply post with u-untag-of link to the post with the person-tag, and that's it. the receiver of the webmention from the reply simply uses the domain of the source as what to untag in the post. no extra markup needed.
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tantek which by design only lets someone untag themselves.
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ben_thatmustbeme you don't need much markup really, it can be just based on the person's site
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tantek that's what I just said :)
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ben_thatmustbeme hah, well i guess we were on the same line of thinking there
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ben_thatmustbeme i was actually going to say untag-of too
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tantek right, the design is quite obvious to deduce from previous designs/patterns
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ben_thatmustbeme i like that it automatically means that only the person who is actually tagged can untag themselves
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ben_thatmustbeme *OR* the person who tagged them can remove their post along normal editing methods
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ben_thatmustbeme i would expect that to delete the tag as well
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ben_thatmustbeme i'm sort of torn on whether to require myself to post a tag-of to my own photos or not
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ben_thatmustbeme so i have to create a post that tags my photo posts
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tantek I mean you could if you want to show it as a separate activity
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tantek really that's about what presentation / UX you want to show on your own site
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tantek do you want to show something like "post a photo with A, B, C in it"
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tantek or
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tantek "posted a photo"
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tantek "tagged A, B, C in photo"
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tantek or
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tantek "posted a photo"
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tantek "tagged A in photo"
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tantek "tagged B in photo"
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tantek "tagged C in photo"
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tantek you can be as wordy / granular as you wish ;)
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ben_thatmustbeme yes, but that gets a bit too wordy i feel
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tantek right, judgment call per person per their own site
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ben_thatmustbeme although i do want to go super granular at some point
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ben_thatmustbeme well there is no system for others to tag multiple people though
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tantek point is you can start with the first way (all in one post), and then go more granular later
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tantek yes of course there is
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tantek a reply post with multiple person-tags in it
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ben_thatmustbeme hmm, actually, i hadn't thought of that
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tantek thought I mentioned that in the write-up
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tantek or at least in the IRC brainstorm ;)
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ben_thatmustbeme I must have missed it, i don't see it on the wiki
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ben_thatmustbeme i remember discussing multiple photos and such, but for some reason i thought it was said 1 person-tag per post, but you are right, there is no need to limit it there
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ben_thatmustbeme i think i would go with "posted a photo" then "tagged A, B, C in photo"
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tantek.com edited /tag-reply (+73) "clarify by example that you can post a tag-reply with multiple tags" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /tag-reply (+17) "/* See Also */ person-tag\" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /person-tag (+495) "/* How */ simple example per proposed in IRC a few weeks ago" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /person-tag (+4) "/* How */ ws" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /person-tag (+169) "/* How */ multiple ok too" (view diff)
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tantek there you go ben_thatmustbeme: http://indiewebcamp.com/person-tag#How
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ben_thatmustbeme hah, nice
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tantek.com edited /person-tag (+16) "/* See Also */ tag-reply" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme just need to make sure that u-untag-of posts are published privately or semi-privately
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ben_thatmustbeme otherwise its as good as a tag
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ben_thatmustbeme what is tag-reply
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Loqi A tag reply is a response to another post that tags that post with one or more tags https://indiewebcamp.com/tag-reply
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ben.thatmustbe.me edited /tag-reply (-6) "clarity, make "that post" unambiguous" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /area-tag (+980) "stub with dfn, quick braindump how to since benthatmustbe me is approaching implementation" (view diff)
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: that should be a good start on how to tag a person beyond being *in* a photo, but at a particular spot/rect.
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tantek.com edited /area-tag (+17) "see also person-tag" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /tag-reply (+15) "see also area tag" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme there is no way to suggest removal of a category tag though is there?
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ben_thatmustbeme once you start auto-tagging things, it would be nice to have people say "this post shouldn't be tagged Foo"
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tantek why would you have any right to?
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tantek or better: what existing system supports that?
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ben_thatmustbeme no right to, "suggest"
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tantek any real world examples?
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tantek or is this a hypothetical wish that no one has implemented on any system anywhere?
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ben_thatmustbeme hmm, it does that only for your own posts in G+
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ben_thatmustbeme posts/images are autotagged, but you are correct its not something i've seen in social
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tantek a-ha! a way to record your untagging of *other peoples tags* on *your posts*.
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tantek e.g. Flickr lets others tag your photos
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tantek and then you can simply [x] delete them
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tantek and just like person untaggings, not clear what you would do with those permalinks
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ben_thatmustbeme i was thinking just as admin side, but true, if you want to record / disply that
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tantek I've never seen it saved anywhere in stream like format, but the *action* of untagging a plain text tag certainly exists in Flickr - and maybe other systems
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tantek what is an untag?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "untag" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=untag
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ben_thatmustbeme u-untag-of with a category tag
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tantek that's just a plain text tag
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tantek no need to say "category tag"
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ben_thatmustbeme so untag-of with a tag doesn't assume all tags, its just the tag you mention (rightly so)
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ben_thatmustbeme s/tag you mention/tag(s) you mention/
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Loqi ben_thatmustbeme meant to say: so untag-of with a tag doesn't assume all tags, its just the tag(s) you mention (rightly so)
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tantek correct
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ben_thatmustbeme off to catch my train
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ben_thatmustbeme later
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GWG I feel like I need to expand the backup page on the wiki
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GWG I've been meaning to set up some backups
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david.shanske.com edited /Homebrew_Website_Club (+145) "/* Up-and-coming Meetings */" (view diff)
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david.shanske.com edited /Homebrew_Website_Club (+1) "/* Up-and-coming Meetings */" (view diff)
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GWG I've been meaning to add that to the wiki for a whilenow
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KevinMarks Hm, thinking about homepage webmentions as person tags rather than post tags
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KevinMarks There is a problem if someone is webmentioning a post on your homepage
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KevinMarks Via a fragment or fragmention
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tantek will wait until someone actually does this.
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snarfed1 aww what fun is that
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tantek way more fun focusing on real world behaviors first :)
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tantek KartikPrabhu: do you know if anyone has done a JS embed to display marginalia similar to how you display them, however retrieving the marginalia from a webmention proxy like webmention.io?
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tantek could be handy for displaying marginalia on things like W3C specs which may be able to delegate their webmention receiving, but not actually be able to handle receiving/storing webmentions themselves
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tantek KartikPrabhu: per: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/css/20141211#l-221
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bret http://venturebeat.com/2014/12/10/bittorrent-announces-project-maelstrom-the-first-torrent-based-browser/
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