2014-12-19 UTC
# 00:01 GWG pwcc: Why use a Custom Post Type? Why not a page?
# 00:01 pwcc Perhapes any pull request I make around the issue can start as a filter.
# 00:01 GWG pwcc: Wouldn't it be easier to create a page that maps to each archive?
# 00:02 pwcc That;s what the custom post type is, effectivly.
# 00:02 GWG Does it need to be a new post type though?
# 00:02 pwcc Rather than setting post_type: page, it would be set post_type: exotic_webmention & be hidden from the front end.
# 00:03 GWG As part of the webmention plugin or an optional extension?
snarfed joined the channel
# 00:04 pwcc Not sure you /have/ to register the new post type even, although it's probably polite.
# 00:04 pwcc Wld need to get feedback on that, in two minds.
# 00:05 pwcc The spec says all pages, which is why I chucked the issue in there,
# 00:06 pwcc What are your thoughts as a site owner?
snarfed joined the channel
# 00:23 GWG I've never gotten a webmention to an archive page
# 00:23 GWG I had gotten one to my domain name
npdoty joined the channel
# 00:25 pwcc GWG it's an interesting idea. Perhapes a question around the spec.
# 00:26 npdoty now it’s on a wiki page, not just an IRC log, so I have to do it
# 00:26 pwcc GWG: were you talking about native webmentions in WP earkier this month or was that someone else?
# 00:34 GWG pwcc: Native as in built into WordPress?
# 00:35 GWG I had asked if it was worth suggesting at one point.
# 00:35 GWG Because I hate pingbacks and trackbacks
# 00:37 pwcc GWG: Cool. Was asking someone about it a couple fo nights back. Along with implementation, they ask questions about what will be the affect of WP 'blessing' these things. Will thy be stuck defining & supporting in the future.
# 00:37 pwcc The concern is they become sole supporter if others lose interest.
# 00:38 pwcc For us, site owners, spam would move to WMs
# 00:40 GWG pwcc: Simple...webmentions replace pingbacks and trackbacks, JSON REST API replaces XMLRPC for posting...thus the XMLRPC can be deprecated from core.
# 00:42 pwcc GWG: removing XMLRPC won't happen. Really not worth putting forward to WP Core as a proposal.
# 00:43 pwcc GWG: I know that sounds harsh, but it's the politics of the situation.
mlncn joined the channel
# 00:48 pwcc GWG: I'm new to this, indieweb, how stable would you consider the WM spec.
# 00:49 pwcc It looks like there is a bit of flux around it, I suspect it would need to be stable for some time before it could be considered for WP core.
# 00:50 GWG pwcc: I know. What I want and what I think I can get are two different things
# 00:50 pwcc They way in is to get it as a blessed plugin, that's the propsal that would need to be made on make.wordpress.org
# 00:51 pwcc I think the big push for 4.2 will be the REST API and maybe responsive images. But worth putting forward as an early proposal.
# 00:52 GWG pwcc: How would you compare pingbacks and trackbacks to webmentions?
# 00:53 GWG Other than the transport medium is http?
# 00:55 pwcc I've discribed them as ping/trackbacks+, in that they support replies, favs, RSVPs, and (I believe) remote editing.
# 01:00 tantek pwcc - we've been calling that set of things "interactions" or "responses" see indiewebcamp.com/interactions
# 01:01 npdoty I think the actual WebMention part doesn’t specifically support those things
# 01:01 tantek preferring a user-centric terminology instead of plumbing-centric technology
# 01:01 npdoty it just tells you that source page talks about target page
# 01:01 tantek whereas pingbacks/trackbacks are both specific plumbing
# 01:01 npdoty and then the microformatted content of the source page has a lot of flexibility for those features
# 01:02 tantek npdoty - the diffrence is that webmentions quickly got associated with the higher level of presentation and features built upon it
# 01:02 tantek even though yes you're right, webmention is also specific plumbing
# 01:04 tantek npdoty - as is common though, each of those specific plumbing mechanisms tends to bring a level of user functionality / presentation expectation (or lack thereof)
# 01:05 GWG tantek: So, what would you say if someone suggested deprecating pingbacks and trackbacks in favor of webmentions? What's the argument there?
# 01:05 tantek webmention is simpler technology, thus easier to implement robustly and interoperably
KartikPrabhu joined the channel
# 01:12 pwcc GWG @tantek, Simpler, I liek that :) -- Deprecation of pings, yes, could be an approach - they'd be in core but disabled by default or some thing/
# 01:14 jjuran tantek, GWG: Wasn't there a vulnerability in blog mentions where an attacker could trick a blog host into sending a GET to an arbitrary victim?
# 01:15 pwcc Is it worht putting together a page or google doc to work on a proposal?
# 01:15 npdoty well, I’m still using Bibtex in various places, but it should all be rendered in nice semantic HTML
# 01:16 KartikPrabhu npdoty: why not just abstract that into a bibtex to mf2 translator and use the mf2 for rendering? that way if I wanted to write a mf2 file directly one coud...
# 01:17 npdoty jjuran, I think we can fix that with X-Forwarded-For headers
# 01:17 npdoty KartikPrabhu, well, I also want to render the citations visually using the Citation Style Language
# 01:17 npdoty … which is how I ended up working with citeproc
# 01:18 KartikPrabhu hmm not CSS ok, then I am wishing for something to make HTML based papers
# 01:18 jjuran One problem is that the rube doesn't check to see whether the attacker is allowed to speak for the victim.
# 01:18 GWG jjuran: That is an issue regardless of plumbing
# 01:19 GWG pwcc: I wouldn't mind helping. Not sure the temperature of WordPress core contributors.
# 01:19 tantek jjuran have you experienced such an attack on your own site?
# 01:19 tantek pwcc what proposal are you talking about? I'd say use etherpad or wiki - avoid google docs
# 01:20 pwcc @tantek - to propose WMs going into WordPress core.
# 01:20 KartikPrabhu tantek: just like we pre-emptively tried to solve the harrassment problem with vouch, maybe DDOS is also a pre-emptively soluble problem?
# 01:23 pwcc GWG: I've mentioned it to a couple fo the local committers. Very neutral response, I think they want to know advantages.
tilgovi joined the channel
# 01:25 GWG KartikPrabhu: But it is a longstanding problem for the type that didn't originate with webmentions
# 01:25 npdoty maybe we could encourage some WebMention consumer to implement the X-Forwarded-For right now and show that the DDOS is already addressed
# 01:25 npdoty I had a bug to add that as a MUST to the spec, but I don’t think it’s been acted on
# 01:26 GWG pwcc: Wouldn't it be best spun as a reimplementation of a feature that needs to be reexamined?
# 01:26 GWG Many people have turned off pingbacks and trackbacks because of abuse.
# 01:26 pwcc KartikPrabhu I use expiring endpoints (24hrs) on my site.
# 01:28 GWG Is the proposal webmentions by themselves, or including DDOS and Vouch protections?
# 01:28 pwcc GWG that would need to be addressed. If WMs go into WP Core, they instantly become a target for spammers.
# 01:29 pwcc DDOS, Vouch would need to be decided.
# 01:31 pwcc I am Mr #indieweb n00b, why I'm asking for blessing of the idea.
tilgovi joined the channel
# 01:32 GWG pwcc: I've been here since March and still feel that way
# 01:32 GWG pwcc: But, do you think later on, they won't be a target? That is a guarantee no matter when it is
# 01:34 pwcc GWG not sure what you mean? As use increases they'll become a target, having it in core of a large platform just speeds up the process.
# 01:36 GWG pwcc: As use increases, they become a target. But, assuming a delay, what would you use the delay to do?
# 01:36 KartikPrabhu if webmentions are accepted into WP and a lot of users adopt it then there is no doubt it will be a spam and DDOS target
# 01:37 GWG What action would make it better?
# 01:37 GWG KartikPrabhu: How would you make it more ready to be a target?
# 01:41 pwcc Not sure what to do, baking in a solution would help. Could work on a proposal for WP while sepcing up the solution.
# 01:42 pwcc BTW, I am saying WP because of my background. Could be any platform.
# 01:48 GWG But, it comes down to...problem now or problem later
# 01:48 GWG So, what is the argument for waiting to propose? Propose doesn't mean anything other than exploring an idea.
# 01:49 GWG And that means new people looking at it, asking questions, and thinking about it
# 01:50 tantek the difference between spam and DDOS abuse is that nearly *everyone* using WP experiences spam, and very few experience the DDOS problem that's been mentioned in practice
# 01:50 tantek worry about the problems that actually occur, more than the theoretical or rarely occuring ones
# 01:51 tantek pwcc - btw - add your image to indiewebcamp.com/irc-people and it'll show up in logs!
simonv3 joined the channel
# 01:54 tantek pwcc - btw - before webmentions, I'd say easier / less risky changes to core would include updating it to support microformats2 by default
Gold, gRegor` and michielbdejong1 joined the channel
# 02:06 GWG tantek: microformats2 is a theme, not a core issue, isn't it?
# 02:07 GWG So, that would be proposing it for the next default theme, as well as popular theme frameworks
# 02:07 tantek GWG - not sure - from my understanding the old WP microformats implementation used both core and themes - and that led to fragility
# 02:07 tantek thus I'd say it's a core issue if you want it done right
# 02:09 GWG But, what is the case for mf2? What is the enhancement?
# 02:09 tantek GWG - see all the Why sections for things like interactions, reply-context etc.
# 02:10 GWG tantek: Without webmentions, the plumbing for that is pingbacks, I suppose.
# 02:10 tantek GWG - in the case of reply-context - no plumbing is needed at all
# 02:10 tantek the point is, if you want your posts to show up more nicely in others' reply contexts, you should markup your posts with microformats2
prtksxna joined the channel
# 02:14 GWG tantek: Let's say pwcc and I work on a proposal, would you proof as an experienced proposal writer?
# 02:15 tantek I'll happily review / give feedback, though I wouldn't call myself an experienced proposal writer :)
# 02:15 GWG tantek: I see many draft specifications that credit you.
# 02:16 GWG You are an experienced something.
# 02:16 GWG Thus your feedback is always valued.
# 02:16 tantek thus the proposal in particular is to add h-entry for all posts by default in wordpress core, with h-card markup for the author of each post
lukebrooker joined the channel
lukebrooker, amblin, jjuran and npdoty joined the channel
yakker joined the channel
# 03:23 pwcc GWG: sure pick away. Sorry for delay, had to skip away for pre-christmas boozy lunch.
# 03:23 pwcc @tanteck, thanks - will add my images
# 03:24 ben_thatmust "Also, because the code is still technically owned by Google, you'll have to sign a contributors license agreement (kind of a drag, but we require it). That can happen now or later when you send the pull request."
# 03:25 kylewm is it dumb that that makes me not want to use it?
# 03:27 GWG pwcc: Are you familiar with WordPress post formats?
cmhobbs joined the channel
# 03:31 GWG pwcc: Are you familiar with the Indieweb Taxonomy plugin?
# 03:32 pwcc GWG: The replies, repost, etc. I have it installed but don't use it much.
# 03:32 pwcc GWG: are you wanting to add the indieweb tax to post formats?
# 03:36 GWG Actually, I want to replace one with the other
# 03:38 pwcc !tell @tantk re: mf2 in WordPress, there are a few classes generated by core that need mf2 support added. Otherwise mostly themes. I'll familiarise myself with both & write a plugin.
# 03:41 pwcc GWG: it's not possible, there aren't any filters to change post formats.
# 03:42 pwcc KartikPrabhu: thanks - wondered why I wasn't getting any bot love
# 03:44 pwcc !tell @tantek re: mf2 in WordPress, there are a few classes generated by core that need mf2 support added. Otherwise mostly themes. I'll familiarise myself with the core classes & mf2 and write a plugin.
KartikPrabhu joined the channel
# 03:49 GWG pwcc: I don't want to change them.
# 03:49 GWG pwcc: Post Formats are a taxonomy.
# 03:49 GWG pwcc: Post 'Kinds' is a taxonomy. What if I just add in Article, Note, etc. and disable post formats entirely? I do a hybrid right now
# 03:51 pwcc GWG: Do you mean add article, notes etc to the kind tax?
# 03:53 pwcc GWG: Could work by disabling post-formats & using the 'kind_verb' filter in the indie-tax plugin
# 03:54 GWG pwcc: You think it shouldn't be merged into the plugin itself?
# 04:00 pwcc GWG: Could be. I'm in two minds about whether they're different. A note could be a reply or a repost maybe.
simonv3 joined the channel
KartikPrabhu joined the channel
# 04:05 KartikPrabhu as a wordpress outsider might I comment on the fore going discussion? the good thing about WP is that it is very general and people can use it in different ways. I don't see the need to "indiewebify" all of WP
# 04:05 GWG Is this the post format discussion or the webmention one?
# 04:06 pwcc Did I mess up the tell command at :44 No Loqi love...
# 04:06 GWG KartikPrabhu: I don't want to replace post formats in core. That's a plugin choice
# 04:07 KartikPrabhu pwcc: notes need not be replies. a reply can be any post even an article or photo
# 04:07 pwcc KartikPrabhu: I tried a second time and still no love. Y, I misunderstood GWG's question. Kinds as a plugin
gRegor` joined the channel
# 04:09 KartikPrabhu pwcc: your reattempt is not in the logs so it might not have made it through
# 04:09 GWG I want to stop having two competing systems in my installation because one of them is core...but optional core.
# 04:09 pwcc KartikPrabhu GWG: I'm thinking about whether content can be both a note & a reply for the kinds plugin. Whether Notes/Article are seperate from reply/repost/rsvp
# 04:10 GWG That's Multi-Kind Support. That is an option.
# 04:12 GWG Either way, the question was whether Kinds can do everything I want instead of also having Post Formats?
# 04:17 GWG That, and waiting for my hover car.
# 04:18 pwcc GWG: Cool. Looks like mine might be to add mf2 to the WP *_class functions :)
# 04:20 GWG pwcc: Be sure to send me the link. I'll add my voice
snarfed, KartikPrabhu1, wolftune, j12t, lukebrooker, reedstrm, simonv3, jjuran, prtksxna, tantek, tilgovi and loic_m joined the channel
# 07:36 tantek KartikPrabhu: hah - check this out: asin.cc/B0032HF60M
# 07:37 KartikPrabhu why do they insist on putting all the nonsensical query stuff in the final URL!
# 07:38 tantek here is the base60 shortened printable form too: asin.cc/8aURgA
# 07:39 KartikPrabhu man this big websites are training people to ignore URLs as nonsensical!
# 07:39 tantek asin.cc was my first CASSIS + NewBase60 "test" project
# 07:40 tantek feel free to reply to craigmod with any of the above ;)
KartikPrabhu joined the channel
lukebrooker and prtksxna joined the channel
# 07:50 tantek and is an example of how to do so using CASSIS
# 07:50 tantek with JS - all the forms work "live" in the browser
# 07:51 tantek if you disable JS - all the forms still work upon submission, and the same middleware logic is used - but on the server. In CASSIS in both cases.
# 07:52 tantek and no - technically it's not. It's isomorphic PHPJS
# 07:52 tantek ASIN.cc is a demonstration of how to do that - write CASSIS code that runs as both JS and PHP.
# 07:53 KartikPrabhu nice... would like a way to do that with python, even with a compilation step
simonv3 and prtksxna joined the channel
mdik, eschnou and csarven joined the channel
friedcell, j12t and mlncn joined the channel
# 09:10 KartikPrabhu tantek: any suggestions for a response-to endpoint that lists all the responses to a particular URL?
# 09:10 KartikPrabhu will so same thing as original-of but with replies, reposts and such and list all possible posts
sammachin, petermolnar, Sebastien-L and julian`` joined the channel
pfefferle, stream7, petermolnar, elf-pavlik and prtksxna_ joined the channel
adactio, sanduhrs, j12t, simonv3, sammachin, loic_m, pfefferle, XgF, owen1, modem, Garbee, KartikPrabhu, friedcell and Sebastien-L joined the channel
danlyke_ and benwerd joined the channel
# 14:21 GWG pfefferle, petermolnar, you available?
# 14:21 GWG I was discussing this yesterday, but I think I figured out what I want to do, and I wanted to poll more WordPress users for ideas
# 14:22 GWG The Indieweb Taxonomy plugin. I want to have the taxonomy replace Post Formats, instead of me trying to do both. Which means I'd have to add an Article and Note term to it.
# 14:24 GWG It sort of is a post format alternative already, I might as well go full out.
# 14:29 GWG Other than theme support, I can't think of a downside.
# 14:29 petermolnar to be honest, the post format itself does not always make any sense
# 14:30 GWG The Post Format is also, in reality...a taxonomy
# 14:30 petermolnar ( there are a lot of functions in WP that should not be part of core and a lot that are missing imho )
# 14:30 petermolnar GWG I know they are technically taxonimies but they are not treated like
# 14:30 pfefferle is it important to use a custom-<object> in general? shouldn’t it be enough to add some custom input fields?
# 14:31 GWG petermolnar: Only by functions I can reproduce.
# 14:31 GWG pfefferle: It allows for archives by type.
# 14:33 pfefferle nevertheless I would start with implementing the reply-context for all posts (including custom post-types)
# 14:33 GWG pfefferle: Isn't the plugin as it exists now that?
# 14:33 pfefferle so it is up to the user if he uses the context on his ”žclassic“ post or a speciel ”žreply“
# 14:34 GWG pfefferle: I don't want to add a custom post type. This is purely taxonomy I'm trying
# 14:34 pfefferle it only supports replys… perhaps we can add likes/attends/...
# 14:34 GWG I thought about going back to custom post types, my original plan...but I think just a taxonomy with the built-in post type works
snarfed joined the channel
# 14:37 petermolnar I'm using post meta for this kind of data since I don't have any intentions to list by response type
# 14:39 petermolnar for the first entry: meta_id, post_id and meta_key is indexed and I cannot think of any situation to search by meta_value
# 14:40 petermolnar so in case I do not want to list posts by being replies/favs/etc, there is absolutely no need for taxonomy from my point of view
# 14:41 petermolnar but others might think in different structures, displaying their site and it's contents in a different way
# 14:41 GWG I'm just saying, if the two can be used interchangeably, it is an option to do so.
j12t joined the channel
# 14:42 petermolnar I'm too lazy to move away from WP, but I'm trying to make the db as flat as possible which is one of the reasons for me to keep it like this :)
indie-visitor joined the channel
# 14:43 Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
# 14:43 GWG But, there is nothing wrong with my approach inherently. Just not your preference
# 14:44 petermolnar by the way, if xmlrpc.php is blocked from nginx as location ~* xmlrpc\.php { deny all; }
than how the hell I'm still getting pingback spam?!
friedcell joined the channel
# 14:48 GWG Although people blocking XMLRPC is a good case for webmentions on some level
# 14:49 petermolnar oh WordPress... apparently, $post_url/trackback/ accepts trackback spam. on EVERY post url.
# 14:50 GWG Petermolnar, it is high time Wordpress revisited pingback amd trackback.
# 14:51 petermolnar I'm hosting a site of a friend of mine; 1 week results ~3k spam caught by Akismet
# 14:52 GWG Try a plugin called Simple Trackback Validation
verdi_ joined the channel
pfefferle joined the channel
# 14:55 petermolnar but I do agree that it's time for WordPress to start adopting webmentions
# 14:56 petermolnar and I do believe the webmentions + the semantic linkbacks plugin is core-ready
shiflett, michielbdejong and pfefferle joined the channel
# 15:10 GWG Petermolnar, all a matter of spin.
friedcell joined the channel
# 15:12 GWG Semantic Linkbacks would mesh nicely because it cleans up messy pingbacks.
# 15:13 GWG Webmentions would replace the plumbing of pingbacks.
KartikPrabhu joined the channel
# 15:19 GWG petermolnar: pwcc was working on a proposal of some sort.
# 15:20 GWG Well, I think we have to lay out the case.
# 15:20 GWG For me, no one has tried to work on pingbacks and trackbacks in WordPress, as a result, they are mostly disabled due to spam targets.
# 15:21 GWG It is time to propose and put together something to move forward in the area.
# 15:24 GWG I need to read the Plugin Handbook and Requirements.
KartikPrabhu, friedcell, snarfed and gRegor` joined the channel
# 16:13 Loqi snarfed: aaronpk left you a message on 12/17 at 6:35pm: what would happen if I were to tell webmention.io to re-parse all the old webmentions so I can fill in the mf2 data? would I cause you to hit any rate limits?
# 16:13 Loqi snarfed: pfefferle left you a message 1 day, 1 hour ago: yes and will do :)
# 16:13 snarfed "Anecdotally, during the month of November 2014, https://snarfed.org/ received 796,990 POSTs to its comment form, wp-comments-post.php, vs just 2139 POSTs to xmlrpc.php. Of those, 9 comments and 3 trackbacks were ham…So there was at least ~400x more comment form spam than pingback/trackback spam."
# 16:14 GWG snarfed: But, there are multiple vectors.
# 16:14 snarfed petermolnar: good data point! i'd be curious how your numbers compare
# 16:15 snarfed GWG: agreed, there's definitely lots of WP spam in general! (even if it's mostly comment spam)
# 16:16 snarfed i'm still not entirely convinced WP spam is a *problem* though. akismet and other filters are really damn good. so if we have a lot, but the vast vast majority - i think 99.998% for me - is caught and handled invisibly, i'd argue the problem is largely solved for most people
# 16:18 petermolnar it's an attack vector and a nasty one, considering how easy to use it as a ddos entry point
# 16:20 GWG So, what is the protection for it?
# 16:20 petermolnar I'd believe POST from comment form should only be allowed from the serving servers(s)
# 16:21 GWG petermolnar: How would WordPress implement that?
# 16:23 snarfed sorry to keep raining on the parade here…but personally, i think ddos is even less of a problem for WP (much less) than spam
# 16:23 snarfed how often have we been ddosed? most of us, i expect never
# 16:23 GWG petermolnar: Post on it, if you do, I might add it to my nginx set up.
# 16:23 GWG snarfed: Have you been a participant?
# 16:23 snarfed and if the attacker already has a botnet, they don't need anything WP-specific to ddos you
# 16:24 GWG I've had people try to use my xmlrpc to DDOS someone else
# 16:24 petermolnar snarfed: ddos is rare and it's targeted; obviously it's not a thing a normal person usually gets
# 16:24 snarfed ah, ok, then you're thinking of the threat of being an unwilling participant
# 16:25 GWG snarfed: I am. petermolnar isn't.
# 16:26 petermolnar xmlrpc is different: that indeed is an issue beeing used as an unwilling attacker
# 16:26 snarfed petermolnar: i understand the claim, i just think it might be overstated. if you can write to my db or filesystem or make me serve my users arbitrary html/js, that's a security hole
# 16:27 snarfed if you can make my server make an HTTP request to another server, i'd call that something smaller than "security hole," especially if there's no amplification
# 16:28 snarfed if an attacker wants to use WP servers to send N http requests, and it has to send N requests of its own to do that, i'm not sure there's a problem there to be solved
eschnou joined the channel
# 16:30 GWG snarfed: I still don't want my resources used.
# 16:30 snarfed GWG: if the benefit is so small, most attackers won't use them in the first place
# 16:31 snarfed but in the rare cases when they do - and it's not referrer spam mistaken as a ddos - then sure, you can definitely prioritize your work however you choose!
# 16:32 GWG snarfed: So am I. I'm not afraid to express my opinion either.
# 16:33 GWG For example, earlier, I was asking petermolnar about something I was planning. He would rather do it a different way, but neither way is wrong. It is individual choice.
# 16:34 snarfed sometimes one way is clearly better. you're welcome to choose the worse one, but it still helps to advocate for the better one
pfefferle joined the channel
# 16:35 snarfed GWG: i usually read the logs, and i do when i have an opinion
# 16:36 GWG I've decided I'm doing it. So far, no one has talked me out of it. Which I'm not against being talked out of.
# 16:36 GWG Because I may change my mind later, and would rather change it now if I'm going to, and save myself the trouble.
KartikPrabhu joined the channel
j12t joined the channel
wolftune, Sebastien-L, tilgovi, tantek and eschnou joined the channel
# 18:24 tantek KartikPrabhu: no need for a response-to-endpoint. Once you have the original, via original-of or original-post-discovery, all the responses should be there marked up in microformats
# 18:24 tantek in general, when you think you need an endpoint, if all you're doing is *getting* information, you likely don't need it - just use the HTML+microformats instead
# 18:25 tantek GWG re: core.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/30783 - consider noting that h-entry for posts with h-card for the post author is the key to start with.
lupinedev and eschnou joined the channel
# 18:36 elf-pavlik i wonder if with microformats you have clear way to handle multiple profiles/personas of single person
wolftune joined the channel
# 18:38 benwerd could it be as easy as setting up rel="me" links to other profiles?
pius joined the channel
# 18:44 elf-pavlik benwerd, do you know of someone here who happens to host multiple profiles for oneself and uses different ones to list oneself in different directories?
# 18:46 tantek elf-pavlik: benwerd is right, rel=me solves identity consolidation, under the control of the user
eschnou joined the channel
# 18:47 tantek for the problem of "where someone can simply generate a
# 18:47 tantek personal profile and use it to create listing in various organizations" - that's what h-card on a personal domain does already.
# 18:48 elf-pavlik but i need different h-cards, one for coder, one for circus-artist etc.
# 18:48 tantek and if you want to use multiple profiles for yourself with different descriptions, tags etc., you're already on the right path, multiple URLs, each with their own h-card
# 18:48 tantek and then whenever you want to use a particular profile, use that URL
# 18:48 tantek consuming software will use the h-card at that URL for your profile
# 18:49 elf-pavlik i could also use my *main* URL and other system can propose me usying any of all the others linked with rel="me" similar to IndieAuth
# 18:49 tantek sure - though I'd say if you used your main URL - then systems should just use - your main URL
# 18:50 tantek if you want to use a specific profile, you should use that specific URL
# 18:50 tantek no need to make it any more complicated than that
# 18:50 elf-pavlik tantek, any chance that link relations used in microformats will have stable URLs to use with RDFa (or other RDF serializations)
# 18:50 tantek historically they've had stable URLs so I'm not sure what you're asking
# 18:50 tantek are you asking a hypothetical question instead of an empirical question?
# 18:51 elf-pavlik if i want to use some prefix
# 18:51 elf-pavlik to refer to all microformat terms as let's say mf:h-card mf:h-entry etc
# 18:51 tantek categorically rejected as plumbing-centric reasoning
# 18:51 elf-pavlik i want to use microformat terms in RDF
# 18:52 elf-pavlik ok, i want to record my useage of public transport and make it public online
# 18:54 GWG tantek: I was hoping someone would debate on it.
# 18:54 tantek GWG - why hope for debate? better to make a specific clear request, better chance of success.
# 18:55 elf-pavlik i need clear records which stops, which lines, what times etc.
# 18:55 tantek that is, if shipping something in core is your goal. but if discussion is your goal then that's different.
# 18:55 GWG Well, I'm hoping someone will say "Great Idea" and it will be easy to get consensus. But if someone dissents, I intend to be prepared for that too.
# 18:55 tantek GWG - if your goal is "Great Idea" - the more specific and clear the proposal, the better the chance of understanding and agreement.
# 18:56 elf-pavlik tantek, how does someone query then to get only my public transport checkins and not public toilets, public baths, public dining halls etc. ?
# 18:57 aaronpk you could also publish different feeds with a subset of the checkins
# 18:58 tantek I haven't done such queries myself, but the data is there in my /checkins on my /Foursquare profile and I can download them and query/grep that etc.
# 18:58 tantek at some point I hope to ownmycheckins on my own domain and POSSE to Foursquare/Swarm but I'm not there yet
# 18:59 tantek a growing number of others however are adding /checkins to their site in the immediate / near term
# 18:59 tantek elf-pavlik: do you have any personal site user feature shipping goals for 2015-01-01?
# 19:01 tantek elf-pavlik perhaps add that to your "Itches" section on your user page
# 19:04 elf-pavlik tantek, interesting example... how can i self host profile i use for indiewebcamp.com ?
# 19:04 aaronpk tantek: GTFS is unfortunately the standard for cities publishing transit route schedules
PMurphs_ joined the channel
# 19:05 aaronpk it's not going away any time soon. fortunately there's not a lot of reason to consume it unless you're making a routing app.
# 19:05 tantek aaronpk - do you have example URLs to such transit route schedules?
# 19:05 tantek aaronpk - it's like all the other one-off overcomplicated XML formats out there - governments might use it, but there's no reason we need to adopt it for our own user features.
obra_ and Aeyoun_ joined the channel
# 19:06 aaronpk I can't even imagine why an individual would publish GTFS, that doesn't make sense
# 19:06 tantek that is, *if* you have a reason to consume it - which you noted, you likely do not
# 19:06 elf-pavlik aaronpk, i want to interlink from my activities to identifiers used in official GTFS feed
# 19:07 aaronpk elf-pavlik: what do you expect that to look like when i'm visiting your site?
# 19:07 aaronpk I can't even find any real web URLs for GTFS data
# 19:08 elf-pavlik i care less about how it visually looks and more how much analysis someone can do on that data using computer
saurik_ joined the channel
# 19:08 tantek elf-pavlik: if you or anyone else can't view it, then you can't trust the data
sebastien__ and loic_m joined the channel
# 19:09 tantek work with or on overcomplicated formats will eventually be subsumed and superceded by working simpler formats
# 19:09 elf-pavlik if someone trusts the domain which publishes it or even better i sign it, why 'seeing with human eye' would matter?
# 19:09 tantek it's the natural evolution of formats, thus it's not worth investing time in obviously overcomplicated formats, except as research into developing a simpler format
# 19:10 tantek elf-pavlik: because humans see errors in data that machines never do, humans see implicit violations of assumptions that machine are not taught about
# 19:10 elf-pavlik i look forward to run some analysis on aaronpk public transport usage :)
# 19:11 tantek it matters not how many people nor how much money is invested in the overcomplicated formats, they will inevitably be obsoleted and replaced
# 19:12 tantek the primary obvious recent example for this is the billions of dollars invested by numerous large/influential corporations in "XMLing all the things", a fraction of which remains in actual use or deployment
# 19:12 tantek complexity is its own downfall. no matter the people or $ invested.
# 19:13 elf-pavlik tantek, maybe we could stick to my quite clear use case? i'll talke a look at /checkins to see how much i could get out of them!
# 19:14 elf-pavlik aaronpk, how do i tell difference between you walking, riding a bike or driving a car?
# 19:16 aaronpk right now I have a property called "type" set to "bikeride" which also may be "run" or "drive"
# 19:16 elf-pavlik tantek, wilco!
# 19:16 tantek aaronpk - is that the thing that I proposed a single character bit mask for?
# 19:17 tantek aaronpk - wasn't it the list of transport types from Apple?
j12t joined the channel
# 19:20 aaronpk right now i'm talking about my metrics feed, which is route information
# 19:22 elf-pavlik aaronpk, i recall you mentioning that you don't provide queries like 'all bikeride run and drive'? i need to crawl you website and then search it?
# 19:22 aaronpk i've been experimenting with that, currently I have feeds for each type
# 19:23 elf-pavlik cool, do those feeds have some kind of relationship to you? any kind of discovery ?
# 19:23 aaronpk no, I'm not linking to them anywhere yet, because I haven't figured out where I want those links to be
# 19:25 elf-pavlik do you have one page that lists all those feeds?
# 19:26 elf-pavlik to get all your metrics i need to crawl through the pages?
# 19:27 tantek elf-pavlik: think of "crawl through pages" as the same as "iterate through API call results" - they are actually the same
# 19:28 aaronpk many APIs actually do exactly that as well, with Link headers set to rel=prev
# 19:28 elf-pavlik kylewm, yes! just moved it to different server (previous kept going offline) and didn't move SSL cert... sorry!
# 19:28 elf-pavlik aaronpk, tantek: makes sense and easy to script getting all the data!
# 19:28 kylewm elf-pavlik: no worries, just making sure you knew :)
# 19:29 elf-pavlik kylewm, thanks! i appreciate that :)
# 19:30 elf-pavlik aaronpk, for types of food, do you use some common clasification or make your custom categories?
# 19:33 aaronpk i have a type of food or drink, but that's the only thing structured at the moment
# 19:35 elf-pavlik just to clarify my use case, since i don't use ISO 4217 i plan to publish my economic I/O (consumption, contributions) as linked data and invite everyone to analyse it and develop one's own opinion about my role in society (instead of juding people by often by number of meaningless tokens on their virtual accounts)
# 19:35 elf-pavlik ISO 4217 currencies
# 19:38 tantek is there a federated wiki world? or just a single project monoculture so far?
# 19:38 tantek aaronpk - do you have an example URL of location with motion information?
# 19:39 aaronpk no, I don't currently publish individual location points
# 19:40 tantek is there a set somewhere? or is it all your bicycling / driving posts?
# 19:41 aaronpk just in biking/running/driving posts right now, and that only includes the bare minimum route data to draw the line, not the actual raw data
# 19:41 aaronpk the line is also simplified, not the full set of GPS points
# 19:42 aaronpk (if you zoom in on some routes with arcs you can kind of see what I mean)
# 19:45 elf-pavlik tantek & aaronpk thanks for all your feedback and answers to my questions! i got to run but will check logs of next hours later on :)
# 19:46 tantek elf-pavlik: well done with starting documentation of your personal itches
# 19:47 tantek looking forward to seeing what you commit to shipping on your personal site by 2015-01-01!
shiflett joined the channel
# 19:55 aaronpk hm I am tempted to also publish "likes" as my 2015 commitment
# 19:58 aaronpk tantek: I am curious to hear about your publishing flow for likes that you'll start doing!
# 19:59 kylewm I have the impression you mark a lot of favs but could not verify!
KartikPrabhu joined the channel
# 20:04 aaronpk I am afraid to start creating a bunch new permalinks before I do the switchover to type-less URLs
j12t and benwerd joined the channel
# 20:15 kylewm I'm thinking about writing a tiny service that just accepts CORS javascript requests and sends micropub like-of urls, to get a one click bookmarklet for posting likes
# 20:16 aaronpk i have a bookmarklet for making bookmark posts, but it really just opens up my posting interface with the URL pre-filled
# 20:16 kylewm still need some way to authorize the JS request, doh
# 20:17 kylewm ooooh, so actually it wouldn't need to be a service at all
# 20:17 kylewm just an endpoint on my site that is ok with CORS
# 20:18 aaronpk and accepts micropub requests with the token in the post body rather than http header
# 20:18 aaronpk huh would that really worK? that seems like it would be great
# 20:22 kylewm I would need to learn more about cross origin stuff to know for sure
npdoty joined the channel
# 20:24 kylewm i guess that is why it would be nice to have it as a separate service, so that there's no danger of leaking session data or w/e
# 20:26 aaronpk seems like something I could add to Quill pretty easily
# 20:26 aaronpk I already have a bookmarklet for Quill for posting bookmakrs
# 20:36 aaronpk kylewm: yeah i'm putting this in Quill. just tested and it works
# 20:39 tantek kylewm: that is very odd - everyone else's profile seems to show # of favorites except mine
# 20:39 aaronpk maybe you have so many that the number doesn't fit
elf-pavlik joined the channel
# 20:44 tantek kylewm very strange - I've tried view source on my profile vs. others, and it's just missing. everyone else has "favorites" between "followers" and "lists" and I do not.
martinBrown and KevinMarks joined the channel
# 21:08 sandro h-entry blocks?
# 21:08 sandro (or elements or whatever)
# 21:11 aaronpk tantek: am I crazy? I can't find on the wiki where you talk about POSSEing likes to twitter
# 21:14 tantek note that current write-up does not say what to do with likes/favoritings of things which lack a POSSE tweet copy
petermolnar and Primo joined the channel
# 21:29 Primo i hope this isn't a dead channel with stuckup *unts.
# 21:30 petermolnar Primo no, this is not a dead channel, but we do ignore irrelevant people
# 21:31 Primo petermolnar no shit.
# 21:32 Primo typical channel i guess, a group of losers with treats of ignore... bullocks!
# 21:32 aaronpk Primo: do you have a personal website? what is your interest in #indiewebcamp?
# 21:32 Primo i am a web developer
# 21:33 Primo why am i being questioned?
# 21:33 aaronpk normally newcomers to the channel are welcomed warmly, but they typically don't enter the channel in the style you did
verdi_ joined the channel
# 21:35 aaronpk one of the ways we introduce ourselves here is by asking about peoples' personal websites
# 21:35 Primo which simply means, i am not a typical newcomer
# 21:35 Primo anyway i come in peace
# 21:36 aaronpk however please read the code of conduct and decide whether you want to participate here. an apology for the inappropriate language would be helpful as well.
# 21:36 snarfed since people are thinking about publishing/posseing likes…i've plugged them here before, but it might be worth re-plugging them…
# 21:37 Primo hahahaahahahahaaha
# 21:37 aaronpk snarfed++ for easy "like" workflow on desktop *and* mobile!
# 21:39 kylewm bret: hey someone was asking which version of smallest fedwiki (Ruby or Node) was more maintained/active, do you know?
pauloppenheim joined the channel
# 21:41 bret sparverius: this channel is for any indieweb on topic talk, #indiechat is for off topic and isn't logged
# 21:44 aaronpk well I guess he wasn't willing to apologize. or he didn't accept the code of conduct.
# 21:46 aaronpk (assuming male pronoun because of the language used)
# 21:47 elf-pavlik aaronpk, does Loqi always use 'him' whe one uses !tell ?
# 21:47 Loqi Ok, I'll tell her that when I see her next
# 21:48 kylewm Loqi mostly doesn't know preferred pronouns though, and it is a mystery why it knows for some people :P
shiflett joined the channel
# 21:57 bret Added a resource section to the why page bear
# 21:58 Loqi bear: tantek left you a message 1 week, 2 days ago: the escaping of URLs in a query param the way Google does it is super ugly
# 21:58 bear it's been a very busy month - i've been lurking too much
# 21:59 bret &yet is making everyone write cool blogs posts like every day
fiatjaf joined the channel
# 22:00 bear we write on a team blog for company related stuff
# 22:00 bear but we also write on our own blogs often
benwerd joined the channel
# 22:13 bear yea, it's a very popular photo hosting platform - php and all that
# 22:14 bear piwigo.com is the hosting site for the open source code - ala wordpress
# 22:16 bear well, only if you use piwigo.com - but you can run it on your own server
# 22:18 tantek so is it a CMS? is it a plugin for other CMSs? is it a library for someone to build a plugin or CMS on top of?
# 22:18 tantek I still don't understand what you mean by "platform" in that description
# 22:18 bear it's a tool to allow a person to organize photos and make them displayable on the web
# 22:19 bear platform probably is not the best word I could have selected
# 22:19 tantek wonders if it's a personal Flickr in the same way that everyone that graduates a Rails course thinks they've built a personal Twitter.
# 22:20 tantek but WordPress has photo posting support, so I'm confused by that statement
# 22:20 petermolnar for plain photo gallery, use lychee, but that is without any social thing
# 22:20 bear sorry, i'm very much under the weather so my thoughts are not a coherant as I normally would be
# 22:21 tantek ok if it's open source like wordpress then what's the point of a "gift code"?
# 22:21 petermolnar aaronpk not on the site, no, but for plain galleries with many pictures, sometimes
# 22:22 bear well, like wordpress the opensource project - piwigo.com is a commercial entity hosting site
# 22:22 aaronpk finding a good self-hosted photo solution is a long-term goal of mine
# 22:22 petermolnar when google integrated picasa into g+ I moved my former galleries to lychee
# 22:23 tantek a-ha ok "piwigo.com is a commercial entity hosting site" is a silo
# 22:23 bear ah - now I get why your were asking these questions - I was not being clear at all about seperating those two
# 22:24 petermolnar aaronpk lychee is fast, snappy and pretty lightweight, although as a price, pretty dumb as well
# 22:30 aaronpk petermolnar: how long have you been using lychee?
# 22:35 bear more proof that I need to get some food - three edits for about 7 words ;)
mlncn, veselosky, agaric, SRCR, wolftune, benwerd and colintedford joined the channel