#indiewebcamp 2014-12-26

2014-12-26 UTC
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ben_thatmust GWG, can you post via micropub?
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GWG ben_thatmust: Nope
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ben_thatmust i feel like that would be a great plugin to add
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david.shanske.com edited /HTTPS (-268) "/* Level 3 security */" (view diff)
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david.shanske.com edited /HTTPS (+396) "/* Level 5 security */" (view diff)
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GWG ben_thatmust: I agree
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fiatjaf KartikPrabhu: I don't get it, a webmention endpoint (I'm testing with a withknown domain) is reading my p-summary (which should be plain text, right?) and there are newlines on it, it should display the comment with newlines, or doesn't? how can I make everybody's webmention endpoint get my comments with newlines?
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KartikPrabhu fiatjaf: link?
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KartikPrabhu fiatjaf: also in general it is futile to demand that everyone parse incoming webmentions the same way
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KartikPrabhu by default HTML rendering does not preserve all white spaces. You can set that using CSS white-space: pre-wrap
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KartikPrabhu but not everyone does this on their site
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david.shanske.com edited /User:David.shanske.com () "(-627) /* WordPress for Indieweb */" (view diff)
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aaronpk i can't wait for someone to make a micropub endpoint for wordpress
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GWG aaronpk: Nor can I
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GWG But I think I'm not ready for it
michielbdejong1, ben_thatmust, KartikPrabhu, j12t, mlncn and tantek joined the channel
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tantek https://gigaom.com/2014/12/17/theres-more-to-media-than-posting-links-on-facebook-and-twitter/
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tantek this is good reason alone for NOT upgrading to Yosemite - I don't care if it is a "free upgrade" as the spammy alert dialogs keep prompting me on MacOSX: https://twitter.com/gnat/status/548303041812631552
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@gnat "Your other devices will be unable to access your cloud data until they also upgrade to Yosemite." Bless you and your "cloud", Apple. (twitter.com/_/status/548303041812631552)
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tantek also a good reason why I have not upgraded to iOS8: https://twitter.com/WasPhantom/status/548341839812513793
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@WasPhantom @gnat better was that the same was true for iOS8, which was released significantly before Yosemite. (twitter.com/_/status/548341839812513793)
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tantek (nevermind that they broke facetime: links)
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tantek Either I'll wait for a non-screwed-up / regressed version of MacOS or iOS, or at some point get a new device that requires them.
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aaronpk are they really holding the data hostage until everything is updated (to yosemite and ios8)?
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ben_thatmust my wife only upgraded to iOS8 because apps she wanted to use did not support her phone still on iOS6
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ben_thatmust and you can't install older versions of anything ever
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aaronpk ouch
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aaronpk i tried installing the flickr app on an ios7 device, but it said I couldn't install it unless I update to ios8
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aaronpk even though i have a perfectly functional version of the flickr app on ios7 on a different device
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ben_thatmust there is no such thing as old versions in mobile apps
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ben_thatmust extended support.... phhhhtttt
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tantek yup
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aaronpk is there like a magic "I'm an enterprise" button you can press where you can do all the extended support things?
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KartikPrabhu Apple has always been notoriously dictatorial
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ben_thatmust android is pretty good about having apps work pretty far back in versions, but even then, its sometimes not all that far back
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KartikPrabhu with Android Google did sort of adopt the Apple strategy
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aaronpk oh damn my like button isn't going to work on facebook
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aaronpk there's some XSS whitelist on facebook that prevents loading any scripts except a few domains
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aaronpk content-security-policy apparently
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aaronpk darnit apparently i'm trying to XSS myself
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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ben_thatmust what is XSS
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "XSS" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=XSS
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ben_thatmust so is there yet a good way for me to set up private notifications from my indie-web site to say, my phone?
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tantek what are mobile notifications?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "mobile notifications" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=mobile+notifications
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tantek what are notifications?
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Loqi notifications in the context of the IndieWeb refer to all forms and ways that an independent web site can receive a message indicating something of interest (server notifications), and potentially relay that information (preferably in realtime) to one or more devices used by the owner of that site (client notifications) https://indiewebcamp.com/notifications
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ben_thatmust hmm interesting
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ben_thatmust i'm thinking of trying to learn to do android dev just so i can make an android verion of this https://indiewebcamp.com/mention-app
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tantek that sounds like an itch
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tantek btw - also why I won't update to iTunes 12 - anything "Designed for Yosemite" means designed to NOT work pre-Yosemite in weird and unexpectedly incompatible way to force you to upgrade everything else to Yosemite and/or iOS8
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tantek s/way/ways
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Loqi tantek meant to say: btw - also why I won't update to iTunes 12 - anything "Designed for Yosemite" means designed to NOT work pre-Yosemite in weird and unexpectedly incompatible ways to force you to upgrade everything else to Yosemite and/or iOS8
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sirmlivesey Good morning all. Is there a support channel for Known, or is this it?
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Phyks sirmlivesey: don't think so, I don't know of any at least
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Phyks (for a particular support channel)
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Phyks aaronpk: is known supposed to support quill publishing out of the box ?
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sirmlivesey Thanks Phyks. I figured out my problem anyway. Been a while since I setup Apache and things had changed.
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jjuran Maybe it's time to establish software freedom as a religion, protected under the US Constitution.
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jjuran And when someone asks you to log in with Facebook or such you can say it's against your religion.
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jjuran Though our time is probably better spent writing code than making a legal fuss.
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@benwerd Devised a year-long personal creative project that happens to use Known, Bridgy and #indieweb tech. It'll also make some rum lovers v happy. (twitter.com/_/status/548474345274621953)
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@guzmanadrian The IndieWeb movement is a small group of about 400 passionate people who own their own place on the web. We wan... http://www.scoop.it/t/peer2politics/p/4034221452/2014/12/26/indiehosters-join-the-independent-web-revolutio (twitter.com/_/status/548510396320325632)
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@infofuengirola "Movimiento IndieWeb: redescentralizando Internet" http://cyborgcultura.ticbeat.com/movimiento-indieweb-redescentralizando-internet/ (twitter.com/_/status/548512260919140353)
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@TGKAuthorPromo 294 review links KU get reviews for your book http://www.amazon.com/Marketing-Your-Book-Through-Reviews-ebook/dp/B00OLBCQ9W/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1419270146&sr=1-4&keywords=The+Gentle+Key #Writers #writerslife #wordcount #writechat #Indieauth #fridayreads (twitter.com/_/status/548519598966853632)
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tantek Good morning #indiewebcamp!
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tantek reads today's logs
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tantek in reverse order...
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tantek.com edited /2013/Guest_List (+9) "fix Josh Juran User: page link" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /User:JJuran/ (+35) "r from old link in case anyone had cached that page" (view diff)
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tantek jjuran: that sounds like at least an "itch" for you, perhaps add it to https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=User:Www.metamage.com&action=edit&redlink=1 per https://indiewebcamp.com/wikifying#Wikify_yourself
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tantek sirmlivesey, there are many people here who use Known and are happy to help out (even if it's not an "official" support channel)
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tantek sirmlivesey: check out https://indiewebcamp.com/Known to see if your question is answered, if not, go ahead and ask away - someone will likely at least try to help figure it out.
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tantek Phyks, since you've been here before, go ahead and add yourself to https://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people
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phyks.me edited /IRC_People (+43) "/* Nicknames */" (view diff)
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Phyks tantek: done =)
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phyks.me created /User:Phyks.me (+251) "Created page with "Highly interested in the social and decentralization parts of IndieWeb. Still discovering it… Moving soon to Known for my personal blog. Writing an RSS reader, planning on sup..."" (view diff)
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phyks.me edited /User:Phyks.me (-1) (view diff)
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tantek Phyks++ :)
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Loqi Phyks has 1 karma
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tantek Phyks, why "RSS reader"? why not just "A Reader"? (since RSS is just plumbing jargon)
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Phyks yep =)
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Phyks feed reader
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phyks.me edited /User:Phyks.me (+70) (view diff)
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Loqi [mention] http://blog.exppad.com/article/test-de-known linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] http://blog.exppad.com/article/test-de-known linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (webmention)
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tantek aaronpk, odd, Phyks added themselves to /irc-people more than 5 min ago and is still not showing up linked in the logs
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aaronpk let me double check that 5min is actually the cache time
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tantek we can adjust the FAQ accordingly
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Phyks mmh, do you know any "good" (real life) implementation of h-entry that I can safely use as a reference for my tests ?
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Phyks there are some of them on the wiki, but I do not have enough knowledge of the spec to know whether they can be safely used or not
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tantek Phyks - probably best to start with consuming the simplest forms of h-entry, e.g. notes
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tantek here are a bunch of links to them (both home pages with feeds of h-entrys and h-entry permalink pages) https://indiewebcamp.com/notes#IndieWeb_Examples
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tantek if anything looks "odd" or is confusing at all, definitely say something!
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aaronpk oh dear. this appears to have been another casualty of redirecting everything on indiewebcamp.com to https. the users list hasn't updated since I made that change on the 13th.
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aaronpk it is fixed now, and confirmed that it refreshes every 5 minutes
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tantek thanks!
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Phyks tantek: ok, thanks :)
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aaronpk .
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tantek ..
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test1 test
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aaronpk .
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GWG I'm thinking of doing an end of year indiewebcamp checklist
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aaronpk checklist?
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tantek GWG what is a checklist?
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aaronpk YAY I fixed the streaming IRC logs. (it had also stopped working after forcing to https because the websockets connection was not ssl)
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GWG Tantek, see how I am doing against indiemark?
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GWG Self assessment?
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GWG I'll entertain terminology suggestions?
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GWG Audit?
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GWG Review?
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GWG Anomalily was talking about a year in Review in a different sense.
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GWG But, I was thinking posting an end of year analysis would be interesting
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GWG Report card maybe?
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tantek GWG - like an IndieMark before/after?
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tantek aaronpk, per the discussion about https a couple (few?) days ago, what do you think of turning off the http -> https redirect on indiewebcamp.com until the mixed content warnings are fixed? https://indiewebcamp.com/https#Level_4_security
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aaronpk hm yeah
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aaronpk since that's supposed to be the last step
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tantek or at least sequential
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aaronpk done
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GWG More... Where am I?
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tantek GWG that's a good start. that way next December you'll be able to assess a before/after IndieMark level
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aaronpk I kind of like the idea of doing a post about my curent indiewebness
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aaronpk would be fun to compare against next year
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GWG I didn't have a full year anyway
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GWG I joined the club in March/April
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GWG I did up my Indiemark Status for SSL though
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aaronpk man facebook's api is giving me no end of trouble with this
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aaronpk i might just drop the whole idea of POSSEing likes to facebook
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tantek aaronpk, wait I thought Bridgy Publish would POSSE likes to FB - is that not true?
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tantek or are you trying to avoid an external SPOF
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aaronpk i believe it does. i'm just trying to do it within Quill
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tantek ah, you're trying to be like Bridgy Publish in that regard
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aaronpk yeah
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tantek does Bridgy Publish have some sort of grandfathered permissions for doing FB likes that are now very difficult to obtain?
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aaronpk i believe so. I would have to go through an approval process in order to allow other users to use this
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aaronpk but also they are strongly pushing the JS SDK over making direct API calls, which is part of why this is getting so complicated
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tantek presumably Bridgy Publish did not have to go through that?
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aaronpk confirmed: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-12-24#t1419456215629
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david.shanske.com edited /IPv6 (+91) "/* IndieWeb Examples */" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Facebook (+432) "/* POSSE out to */ a few details of specific examples today" (view diff)
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@kylewm2 Listening to Serial, thinking about how I can make #indieweb checkins legally verifiable alibis :p (twitter.com/_/status/548587958727487488)
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aaronpk heh
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tantek kylewm: simple, implement person-tagging in checkins, then you can check someone else in, and thus act as an alibi for them
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tantek.com edited /POSSE_to_Facebook (+405) "more details" (view diff)
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GWG kylewm: The problem is, after that tweet, if you are accused of a murder, they are going to suggest it was premeditated.
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tantek GWG, that's a circumstantial inference
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GWG tantek: Did you listen to Serial?
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tantek no I typically do not listen to podcasts
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GWG tantek: The entire case it chronicled is full of circumstantial inferences
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tantek.com edited /POSSE_to_Facebook (+844) "dfn, why, how" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /POSSE_to_Facebook (+541) "/* Facebook API */ explicitly note information gathered about Like API" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk - tried to capture the FB API like situation ^^^ please add any relevant details you think might help anyone trying to do the same, and/or any attempt to contact FB to fix the situation: https://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE_to_Facebook#Liking
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aaronpk reading...
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snarfed1 aaronpk: i'm still a bit surprised at the fb like problems
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snarfed1 ugh brb
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snarfed aaronpk: you're using the fb api v2.x?
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aaronpk 2.2
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aaronpk i mean I did get it to work
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aaronpk (i think...now I forgot)
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aaronpk but it involved so many hoops compared to how I was doing instagram and twitter because I basically had to do it via javascript
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snarfed heh, ok. so extra moving parts that may have been conflated
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aaronpk also much more work to handle error conditions like expired tokens
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snarfed oh yes
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aaronpk but that's all seamless with the JS SDK
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snarfed oh nice
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aaronpk the thing that made me decide to drop FB from this project is realizing I don't want to have to deal with what happens if someone likes a private thing
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snarfed yeah. in theory it's ok - they could post their like as a private page on their site to match - but in practice lots of people will leak accidentally
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snarfed hence why bridgy refuses to backfeed anything non-public
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aaronpk yeah, better to play it safe for now
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aaronpk yeah in order to do this properly I realized I would have to query the FB post being liked, find out its permissions, and send that in the micropub request to their site so their site knows if it should be public or not
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snarfed ah, micropub supports audience? nice
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aaronpk well it could...
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aaronpk but no implementations do yet as far as I know
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snarfed heh ok that's scope creep then
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tantek aaronpk you got liking IG photos to work via their API?
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aaronpk yeah!
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tantek hmm - I thought snarfed said that was too hard to do!
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snarfed tantek: i recanted a few msgs later in that irc log :P
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snarfed originally we found we couldn't. later we tried manually and found we could, but neither of us had yet shipped that in production code
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snarfed (i think the wiki page and history include this)
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snarfed regardless, confusing
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tantek oh sorry! I thought that was the problem behind https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/326
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snarfed yeah, i misremembered when i originally answered your q. it's just a feature request after all :P
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tantek aaronpk - does that mean you're going to ship liking of IG photos in Quill production?
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aaronpk yep! very shortly
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aaronpk I really want to add flickr support too but that's going to have to come later to avoid delaying this further
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snarfed yay nice
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Loqi does a happy dance!
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Loqi [mention] Kyle Mahan reshared a post that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-12-26/line/1419628763218 (https://kylewm.com/2014/12/repost-of-tantek-kylewm-simple-implement-person-tagging)
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tantek heh
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aaronpk awesome
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tantek interesting that the author icon is missing from that
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aaronpk oh funny it's just not in the markup in the logs
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aaronpk k i think that fixed it
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Phyks aaronpk: do you know if quill should be working with known out of the box ?
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aaronpk Phyks: I can't remember if Known has the micropub endpoint enabled by default or if you have to install the plugin separately
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Phyks thanks, I was missing the right keyword https://github.com/idno/indiepub =)
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aaronpk cool!
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tantek should that be a /Quill FAQ? or a /Known FAQ?
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aaronpk probably Known
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tantek Phyks where did you look for the answer before asking the question?
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Phyks I was looking in the Known doc, but there is very little info about plugins, and nothing like a list of available plugins
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aaronparecki.com edited /POSSE_to_Facebook (+640) "/* Liking */ clarifying and rewording facebook api section" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Known (+215) "draft a stub How to use Quill subsection" (view diff)
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tantek Phyks could you edit this answer with precisely what you had to do to get Quill working with Known? https://indiewebcamp.com/Known#How_to_use_Quill I took a guess but it is secondhand from the logs.
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GWG I keep trying to determine how fast my site is. I don't even know what good is.
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tantek good is fast enough you don't feel like it took any time. scientifically that means <200ms
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snarfed GWG: i assume you've tried https://developers.google.com/speed/pagespeed/insights/ , http://yslow.org/ , etc?
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GWG Then my site is slow
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Phyks tantek: seems good IMO. I didn't have anymore to do than install the plugin and enable it =)
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tantek Phyks - that's good - perhaps reword the "how to" be more certain about that?
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GWG snarfed: That's why I'm thinking of going back and doing a theme without Bootstrap
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tantek snarfed - do you know if anyone at Google actually uses https://developers.google.com/speed/pagespeed/insights/ on / for any of their public facing web sites / apps / services?
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Phyks tantek: yep, I'm fighting with github auth right now, and I'll have a look after :)
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snarfed tantek: i know lots of google people use it on their personal sites and side projects
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snarfed internal stuff generally uses more internal tools, but probably some have used it
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GWG Other than Minifying things...it implies I'm doing well.
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snarfed nice!
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GWG But it still seems slower than 200ms to me
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GWG My plugin on WordPress is estimating it took 31 queries executed in 2.920 seconds.
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tantek snarfed - I tend to be quite frustrated with the poor performance of anything other than Google's search (e.g. Gmail, Maps), taking *seconds* for common actions, and thus have often wondered what they (or failing to) use for perf.
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tantek even search is often janky due to all the JS nonsense they've added to try to be "smart"
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snarfed tantek: sure, understood. i don't feel that pain personally, but i get it. i don't think it implies fud that pagespeed insights is unused or unmaintained though
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snarfed GWG: you use a cache, right? so the vast majority of your requests should be cached, ie minimal php (ideally none) and definitely no db queries, right?
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tantek when such visible services of their have such poor performance it makes me skeptical that they're using any decent tools.
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tantek s/their/theirs
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Loqi tantek meant to say: when such visible services of theirs have such poor performance it makes me skeptical that they're using any decent tools.
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tantek OTOH if anyone knows what perf tools that FB uses for page load etc., *that* I'd be interested in knowing.
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snarfed tantek: i think the bigger pictures it implies that you and they have different priorities
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tantek snarfed, not according to their posts about perf and relevance, which all provide metrics goals to achieve that their own services fail to achieve.
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GWG snarfed: I wrote the cache. But it doesn't kick in until a page is visited twice in an hour. I could return it to once. In HTML comments on each page is the original load time.
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tantek or it's a "do as we say, not as we do" situation
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snarfed remember that companies like google are big comglomerates. they do their best, but there's never a single perfectly unified and consistent voice
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GWG There's another site on my server...same cache...that only has a .7 second load time
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GWG I need a WordPress diagnostic tool.
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snarfed those posts are from the developer and search community mgmt groups, which have very specific audiences (mostly external people) and priorities than e.g. product groups, much less the company as a whole
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tantek snarfed, of course. and if it was one minor service here or there, that would be a reasonable explanation. however the exception is good perf (search, mostly), rather than bad, hence a pattern.
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GWG It is the front page that takes a long time to load.
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snarfed sure. i don't disagree that google products could perform better. i'm just saying it's a priority/consistency problem, not a tools problem.
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GWG It may be all the data
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snarfed GWG: so the front page isn't cached well?
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GWG Well, the elements of it, I think.
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GWG The full page cache is different
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snarfed ok. maybe tackle the front page cache then
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GWG snarfed: I want to figure out what is eating time in the dynamic version though, if I can.
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snarfed GWG: why? if most of your requests are cached, that would be low priority
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snarfed fwiw, i use wp super cache, configured to write cached pages to disk and serve them from there, so that most requests never run any php (or hit the db) at all
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Phyks hmmm, sounds like I missed something
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tantek snarfed - your site has seemed quite consistently fast to me.
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Phyks my micropub endpoint on known gives a 404
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snarfed tantek: thanks! glad to hear it
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GWG snarfed: I do that with Nginx.
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GWG But I turned it down.
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aaronpk man I gotta get profile image caching working soon
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GWG I'm working on a plugin to better purge the cache and needed to test it
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aaronpk so many broken twitter profile images
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GWG aaronpk: On my list too
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snarfed aaronpk: i feel your pain. https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/blob/master/cron.py#L41 (also IG below)
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tantek can you dynamically use https://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#Profile_Image_URLs to automatically repair them when they break?
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aaronpk tantek: i'm just using whatever comes back from bridgy in the u-photo property, and bridgy currently sends the full image URL
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aaronpk so I don't want to hard-code stuff specifically to fix the profile URLs when the posts are from twitter
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aaronpk that may be a feature request for bridgy, to use the fancy twitter profile image URLs instead
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snarfed yeah, we've discussed this here a few times. i'm reluctant to because those URLs aren't officially supported (which is FUD i started and spread myself :P)
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aaronpk ah yeah
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snarfed i could maybe be convinced, especially by a PR :P
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tantek I'm not advocating Bridgy returning them
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tantek I'm advocating clientside repair
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aaronpk i'd rather do the real fix of serving local copies of the images so that I can fix it in all cases with one go
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tantek right
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aaronpk especially since that will also solve my mixed-content warnings for ssl
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GWG I found the problem
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GWG I think
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tantek aaronpk, additional local image caching advantage, you get to archive what the person looked like when they made the comment/fave/retweet
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aaronpk yes! also definitely the motivation
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tantek assuming you'd cache multiple images per person
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aaronpk I think I was talking about my plan for storing these images with someone a couple days ago... maybe kylewm?
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GWG It's OEMBED
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Phyks tantek: well, I can't make the indiepub plugin work for now… seems like links are added, but not routes. I opened an issue and will see if I manage to fix it. Then, I'll edit the wiki when I will post something through quill :)
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