2014-12-27 UTC
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# 00:01 tantek Phyks - probably good to edit the wiki to note that the instructions do not currently have enough information to work. # 00:03 GWG tantek: Well, it is polling each site for an oembed because I used the WordPress code. I thought it would only poll the site if it was on WordPress's whitelist and that it cached the results. Apparently though, both of those things are done at a different level than I hooked in. # 00:04 tantek why does each site need to be polled for an oembed? and what does that mean? polling it for an oembed endpoint? doing discovery of an endpoint? # 00:06 GWG tantek: It doesn't. The code reference misled me. I need to rewrite my function # 00:19 aaronpk ooookay I decided i'm going to launch my "likes" before 2015-01-01 to give myself a couple days of testing it out # 00:20 tantek that sounds imminently sensible aaronpk. I myself barely made my original 2010-001 commitment. ;) # 00:22 aaronpk so I ended up with two "like-of" properties in my markup. one is an h-cite object and the other is the plain URL # 00:23 aaronpk of course my own webmention handler was apparently only looking for a "like" property, so my first "like" post to dora's website failed # 00:24 GWG There, 3 seconds down to .5 seconds # 00:24 GWG If I add caching to the oembeds, it'll go down more dns53 joined the channel
# 00:29 tantek aaronpk - why not just publish the minimal u-like-of h-cite? # 00:29 GWG I only look for oembed code if the domain is on my whitelist. # 00:29 aaronpk i'm fixing my webmention handler now, i was never looking for "like-of" apparently # 00:29 GWG Also makes it easy to switch from oembed to things like the php-mf2 twitter option later # 00:30 tantek aaronpk - who knows how many likes you've missed! # 00:30 GWG Another few milliseconds if I cache the reply-contexts as WordPress Transients # 00:31 aaronpk i know! I think i've seen some show up as generic mentions # 00:31 GWG I've never liked you, aaronpk. But I'm trying to like more, so when you fix it, I may. # 00:32 GWG I was too caught up in the semantics of it # 00:32 snarfed aaronpk: huh. bridgy sends likes with u-like-of. are you sure you weren't handling it? # 00:35 tantek snarfed, perhaps for 2015, time to turn off the old format? # 00:35 aaronpk also now i'm handling the case when the comments are h-cites *or* plain URLs for everything # 00:35 aaronpk (previously a repost-of that was an h-cite object would fail) # 00:36 tantek snarfed - you could even announce it in advance - give whole days for anybody else to update their consuming code by 2015-001 # 00:36 aaronpk kind of an annoying block of PHP to traverse down the mf2 tree safely, but it is done and it works # 00:38 tantek snarfed - whole days counts as moving fast and breaking things right? ;) # 00:38 snarfed heh yes. bridgy's hopefully a bit beyond that, but hey KartikPrabhu joined the channel
# 00:42 tantek wow 48 hour major bug SLA - that's nuts (impressive) # 00:47 tantek Mashable with NOSCRIPT is downright tolerable! So much faster to load/read! # 00:49 GWG Just cut 9 more database queries. # 00:49 GWG Can I give a ++ to the idea of installing a database query monitor to get rid of unneeded calls to a database, even though I know the database administration issue is a hot button one? # 00:51 aaronpk should I be linking to the like URL in the facepile of likes? # 00:51 GWG tantek: Even in a flat file system, you'd want to reduce loading unnecessary things. But okay # 00:51 aaronpk i kind of think so, but haven't yet because most likes are just bridgy URLs # 00:51 tantek GWG - of course, however in a flat file system, because it's *FLAT*, you are much more aware of the costs of each interaction # 00:52 tantek aaronpk - modified: if you have an original URL for the "like" post, then yes, and if not, then the profile is the best you can do # 00:52 aaronpk "original URL" meaning if the like mf2 markup contains a URL? so not just assuming the webmention source parameter is the like URL? # 00:53 snarfed you should always have a url for a like, right? at minimum it's the webmention source # 00:53 snarfed yeah, whether or not to use source is individual pref # 00:53 tantek though Twitter has public favorites pages, so you *could* link to people's favorites pages, since Twitter doesn't have permalinks for likes # 00:54 aaronpk i think right now it just links to the profile page # 00:54 tantek aaronpk - from a UX perspective, by linking to the actual "like" posts, you provide verifiability / receipts # 00:54 tantek something which will likely grow in importance as the indieweb works # 00:54 snarfed fb renders individual likes in the activity loga pages, e.g. # 00:54 Loqi tantek meant to say: something which will likely grow in importance as the indieweb grows # 00:55 tantek snarfed: interesting "Profile Unavailable … Sorry, this profile is not available at the moment. Please try again shortly." # 00:56 GWG tantek: Either way, I've spent a lot of time on making my site better in the last 24 hours. Share in my joy. # 00:57 aaronpk i'm glad i'm trying this out early! lots of funny things! # 00:59 tantek fascinating re: friend/unfriend UX design: http://mashable.com/2014/02/02/facebook-growing-up/##weaker "Before Facebook, it required a deliberate effort to hold on to these weaker relationships. Now it requires a deliberate effort to get rid of them. It may not take much, technically — just scroll through a list and click "unfriend" — but it is an unnatural and severe action: You must make a conscious choice to delete # 01:00 GWG Do they have to know I deleted them from my life? # 01:00 tantek KartikPrabhu: I think it's more complex than that # 01:00 tantek GWG - they are often unintentionally informed by Facebook resuggesting adding them as friends # 01:01 KartikPrabhu GWG: s few years ago at least you would get an unfriended notification, but then they removed that # 01:03 tantek or people browsing others profiles and noticing the "Add Friend" button # 01:03 GWG Someone added me to an anarchist group on Facebook. # 01:05 GWG Not to me. This person was fired from my workplace. # 01:05 GWG I thought they included me in the blame for a while. # 01:12 tantek aaronpk - I wonder if a Browser plugin like what Barnaby built would help too # 01:12 tantek so you could "just" click stars and hearts on websites and have them do a post to your website # 01:12 aaronpk cause the bookmarklet only works on permalinks obviously # 01:13 aaronpk i can't favorite things in a stream right now without clicking through to the permalink # 01:13 tantek your bookmarklet could give you a list of the entries on the page if there's more than one and you could pick one. # 01:17 tantek kylewm, in this case, if you implemented reply-context CRUD, you would get an icon for the author in the reply-context :) # 01:18 aaronpk cause there is no link from the source to the target in the webmention you linked # 01:19 tantek right, it's a very narrow extension: if your target is a reply to the source, then follow reply-context CRUD # 01:20 tantek I don't know if anyone implements it yet, but it is a very reasonable minimal addition, and useful for examples likes this # 01:21 aaronpk I wonder how much additional complexity that adds to my webmention endpoint # 01:23 GWG tantek: I need to factor in for that, even though I haven't gotten to it # 01:25 tantek GWG - you should be able to do it incrementally, it's designed for incremental understanding and implementation # 01:27 aaronpk i'm trying to think how i would handle that case you sent to kylewm, tantek # 01:27 GWG My code is dependent on pfefferle's webmention plugin. I really need to submit a pull request for documentation. # 01:28 tantek it's more efficient to pre-check during the URL validity step # 01:28 tantek than to wait until checking to see if the source links to the target # 01:30 tantek in addition to "check the source URL to see if it is valid", if your source is a reply in-reply-to the target then do reply-context CRUD (instead of "normal" webmention processing) # 01:31 tantek this also stops an unintented webmention feedback loop where you see the link from the original post back to your reply in the original's list of comments. snarfed joined the channel
# 01:32 aaronpk ah yeah i've been wondering when that is going to come up # 01:33 tantek it's an elegant solution and extension all in one KartikPrabhu, KevinMarks and mdik_ joined the channel
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# 04:40 GWG How long should a reply context be cached? tantek and cmhobbs joined the channel
# 05:07 tantek are you asking about how to handle reply-context CRUD? # 05:08 GWG I'm more thinking if the original source is not webmention capable # 05:11 aaronpk I would still keep the original because that represents the URL at the time you replied to it # 05:13 GWG I'm compromising and setting it to store the reply context unless the post is updated # 05:14 GWG Problem with that is if I add new features...it won't update old posts unless I clear it. # 05:28 aaronpk that is the reason I store the raw HTML in addition to the parsed data # 05:29 aaronpk so I can delete the parsed version and have it re-parse the original HTML without needing to go fetch it again # 05:33 GWG I'll just leave it saved unless updated for now. Needs more thought. KartikPrabhu, sammachin, j12t, snarfed and prtksxna joined the channel
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# 14:36 Phyks I don't get what flattenMicroformats() should do, as it seems it's not doing much in the README example # 14:38 Acidnerd elf-pavlik: what time is the federation assembly ? # 14:38 Acidnerd and what room ? BjornW joined the channel
# 14:50 elf-pavlik Acidnerd, in noisysquare and AFAIK no particular time # 14:52 Acidnerd hmm i hope it's going to be livestreamed Acidnerd, Rev_Illo, j12t and indie-visitor joined the channel
# 15:49 Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname yakker and mlncn joined the channel
# 16:45 aaronpk man i've been getting a lot of imessage spam lately j12t joined the channel
# 16:47 aaronpk Phyks: I think flattenMicroformats() will return a list of all the mf2 objects without them being nested. so like if there is an h-card that is a p-author property of an h-entry, running the page through flatten will return all of the objects in a list prtksxna and crystal joined the channel
# 17:34 GWG Looking at Indiemark. I think I skipped some levels snarfed, snarfed1, wolftune, Rev_Illo and j12t joined the channel
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# 19:11 GWG Is it better to incrementally improve three projects or focus on one? # 19:25 Phyks aaronpk: apparently not… the example in the README returns me `array(0 => $hEntry)` which does not seem to be the documented behavior # 19:43 aaronpk Phyks: huh ok.. I've never used that method before # 19:48 GWG If I hit a level of indiemark, but not the preceding level, how do I describe that? # 19:50 aaronpk i guess you could say you're at level X and describe the additional things you have? # 19:52 GWG I don't understand why web actions come before rel syndication links # 19:53 aaronpk i think if there is anything like that you're unsure of, you should leave a note on the wiki page asking about it # 19:55 GWG I don't know if it is that 2015 commitment thing, but I am trying to fix a bunch of things. eschnou joined the channel
# 20:01 GWG Share and respond... Hmmm I like that tantek, snarfed, michielbdejong and Kopfstein joined the channel
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# 20:55 Phyks aaronpk: I contacted barnabywalters about it, thanks ;) j12t joined the channel
# 21:35 tantek I wonder what an indieweb friend suggestion service/algorithm would look like ("people you may know" or "suggested follows") - it could help indieweb folks connect and discover each other, beyond say the limits of the UX of this IRC channel. # 21:36 GWG Well, how do you know who I know? # 21:37 tantek GWG - sounds more like a sociology question rather than a technical one ;) # 21:37 tantek interesting in our discussion of caching / refreshing reply-contexts yesterday - the same applies to *any* kind of /link-preview # 21:38 Phyks (however this might not be that easy technically) # 21:38 tantek Phyks - hence I asked the technical question open-endedly. # 21:39 GWG tantek: Isn't that the first question in a friend algorithm though? # 21:39 tantek GWG - not sure, it's not clear *how* to figure out a friend algorithm. Multiple approaches / experiments may be needed. # 21:39 Loqi tantek meant to say: GWG - not sure, it's not clear *how* to figure out a friend suggestion algorithm. Multiple approaches / experiments may be needed. # 21:39 Phyks tantek: I know that when I first arrive on a new medium (either a silo like FB / Twitter) or blog or anything, first problem is to "make some friends" to get help and content # 21:40 tantek Phyks this is a problem with aggregators, not with indieweb sites. # 21:40 tantek When you first arrive on an indieweb site, you immediately get content. # 21:41 tantek And you see links to other people that that person interacts with, reads, recommends, etc. # 21:41 tantek That "new empty medium" problem is likely an indicator of the architectural flaw of silo-centric user models. # 21:41 Loqi tantek meant to say: That "new empty medium" problem is likely an indicator of an architectural flaw of silo-centric user models. # 21:41 Phyks hmmm, yes but I don't know of easy ways to get this to me # 21:42 Phyks for instance if I had indieweb stuff to my website, I'd like other users to know that "somebody joined the indieweb "network"" or something like this # 21:42 tantek whereas if you click through - the link itself works fine # 21:43 tantek no - on the FB display of the comment with the link, it provides an image and "500 - INTERNAL SERVER ERROR" # 21:48 tantek perhaps any receiver of a webmention, even just mentions, should consider sending *back* a webmention, whenever they (the original target) is updated. Kopfstein joined the channel
# 22:33 aaronpk instagram updated their info about what usage of the comments API is allowed # 22:52 aaronpk now ownyourgram properly handles videos from instagram! snarfed, j12t, yakker and amblin joined the channel
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tantek GWG - if you can confirm that OEmbed is causing a performance problem, we should document that in /OEmbed#Criticism
KartikPrabhu opt-out vs opt-in
@aaronpk I am now publishing favorites on my website! https://aaronparecki.com/likes If your site supports Micropub... #indieweb (http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2014/12/26/1/indieweb-20150101) (twitter.com/_/status/548646968545660928)
tantek.com edited /Facebook (+522) "/* Advocates */ add Mottos section with before/after" (view diff)
@anomalily I am now publishing favorites on my website! If your site supports Micropub, you can use too! #indieweb ... http://anomalily.net/i-am-now-publishing-favorites-on-my-website-if-your-site-supports-micropub-you-can-use-too-indieweb-20150101-aaron-parecki/ (twitter.com/_/status/548647653169319936)
Loqi CRUD refers to the ability to Create, Read, Update and Delete comments and posts https://indiewebcamp.com/CRUD
aaronpk it adds a little section to the flowchart http://indiewebcamp.com/File:2014-285-webmention-vouch-flowchart.jpg
@openizer RT @elfpavlik: via @openizer https://yunohost.org "Keep calm and host yourself" @yunohost #IndieWeb @IndieHosters @SocialWebWG @unhosted… (twitter.com/_/status/548667525832396800)
@StephaneManet RT @elfpavlik: via @openizer https://yunohost.org "Keep calm and host yourself" @yunohost #IndieWeb @IndieHosters @SocialWebWG @unhosted… (twitter.com/_/status/548668862502563842)
@lohang RT @sazius Looking at IndieWeb and the IndieMark. IndieAuth is pretty interesting: https://t.co/c6lWC6DlyM. (twitter.com/_/status/548685498827698177)
@SarahGi00782242 RT @mozilla_dp: What Is Your 2015-01-01 #IndieWeb Personal Site Launch Commitment? #mozilla http://dragplus.com/notfound?&utm_source=site&utm_medium=web&utm_campaign=go&utm_term=notfound (twitter.com/_/status/548753895917649920)
@adactio RT @kylewm2: Listening to Serial, thinking about how I can make #indieweb checkins legally verifiable alibis :p (twitter.com/_/status/548822804700094465)
@DaveCZombie RT @kylewm2: Signed up for @huffduffer, loving the quietly magic indieweb things it’s doing, e.g. automatically built my user profile based… (twitter.com/_/status/548824378839158784)
known.phyks.me edited /Known (+135) "/* How to use Quill */ Add infos about the fact that it may not be working." (view diff)
@VivaceTek #VivaceNews Movimiento IndieWeb: redescentralizando Internet. http://cyborgcultura.ticbeat.com/movimiento-indieweb-redescentralizando-internet/ (twitter.com/_/status/548941457319817216)
@hugoroyd New cert and new domain for my indieweb homepage: http://hugoroy.eu (also with https) @withknown [until DNS propagates] (twitter.com/_/status/548982625684422656)