#indiewebcamp 2014-12-28

2014-12-28 UTC
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@pwcc
@rezzz I'm using them more as I transition to #indieweb, would love them to be extensible + @post_status
(twitter.com/_/status/548994350273667073)
KartikPrabhu and j12t joined the channel
tantek joined the channel
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tantek
aaronpk++ for ownyourgram improvements!
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Loqi
aaronpk has 640 karma
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tantek
does this mean that you are posting videos via IG to your site?
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Loqi
[bridgy] Jason Resnick replied '@pwcc @post_status Oh so pretty much what WordPress has always been?' to a tweet http://indiewebcamp.com/ (https://twitter.com/rezzz/status/548998051210477569)
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Loqi
[bridgy] Jason Resnick replied '@pwcc @post_status gotcha' to a tweet http://indiewebcamp.com/ (https://twitter.com/rezzz/status/548999281701838850)
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Loqi
[bridgy] Peter Wilson replied '@rezzz @post_status yeah, that's it, just extending it to exploit social media, rather than have social media exploit me.' to a tweet http://indiewebcamp.com/ (https://twitter.com/pwcc/status/548999047634092034)
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Loqi
[bridgy] Peter Wilson replied '@rezzz @post_status I have work to do, would like to make posting replies & similar easier.' to a tweet http://indiewebcamp.com/ (https://twitter.com/pwcc/status/548998382530723840)
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GWG
Looks like pwcc is engaging
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tantek
another example of why we cannot trust any one silo login/auth system: https://twitter.com/marihuertas/status/548988323663200256
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@marihuertas
Opened my Apple account to find address + phone changed to a guy in Ohio. Changed pw, reset security Qs, updated info, checked bank. Yikes.
(twitter.com/_/status/548988323663200256)
KartikPrabhu, wolftune, awolf, eburcat, snarfed, j12t and mdik joined the channel
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GWG
tantek: Would you be able to weigh in on an Indiemark issue?
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tantek
likely
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GWG
Why are rel-syndication links at a higher level than Web Actions?
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GWG
Rel-syndication links seem like a lower bar to me.
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tantek
GWG - because simple silo-specific web actions are *much* easier to build into a system than rel-syndication links, which themselves depend on getting POSSE working, and then storing the results of that POSSEing working.
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tantek
Whereas simple silo-specific web actions can be hardcoded into templates on your posts.
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tantek
so no, rel-syndication links are not a lower bar. they are a higher bar because of what they depend on.
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tantek
Good question however, and I will likely document as an FAQ when I figure out where best to do so.
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snarfed
tantek: GWG: that's all true for automated posse, but not for manual. i often manually posse and then add rel-syndication links manually too
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tantek
snarfed - even more true for manual
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tantek
because it is even more work
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tantek
therefore higher bar
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snarfed
higher bar than changing your post template?
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snarfed
i'd buy equal, but not higher
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GWG
snarfed: So do I.
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tantek
yes, higher bar. one time action vs. repeated action.
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tantek
simple math.
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GWG
Creating an automated system is hard too
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tantek
GWG - adding a hyperlink to a template is a far cry from creating an automated system
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Loqi
[mention] https://david.shanske.com/2014/12/27/indieweb-2014-end-year-summary/ posted 'I found out about Indiewebcamp in March of 2014, so I have not yet been involved with it for a complete calendar year. But, I’ve decided, wi...' linking to http://indiewebcamp.com/indiemark
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Loqi
[mention] https://david.shanske.com/2014/12/27/indieweb-2014-end-year-summary/ posted 'I found out about Indiewebcamp in March of 2014, so I have not yet been involved with it for a complete calendar year. But, I’ve decided, wi...' linking to http://indiewebcamp.com/IndieAuth
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snarfed
you can do posse and synd links manually without even knowing how to code, much less coding your own CMS
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Loqi
[mention] https://david.shanske.com/2014/12/27/indieweb-2014-end-year-summary/ posted 'I found out about Indiewebcamp in March of 2014, so I have not yet been involved with it for a complete calendar year. But, I’ve decided, wi...' linking to http://indiewebcamp.com/note
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Loqi
[mention] https://david.shanske.com/2014/12/27/indieweb-2014-end-year-summary/ posted 'I found out about Indiewebcamp in March of 2014, so I have not yet been involved with it for a complete calendar year. But, I’ve decided, wi...' linking to http://indiewebcamp.com/article
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Loqi
[mention] https://david.shanske.com/2014/12/27/indieweb-2014-end-year-summary/ posted 'I found out about Indiewebcamp in March of 2014, so I have not yet been involved with it for a complete calendar year. But, I’ve decided, wi...' linking to http://indiewebcamp.com/reply
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Loqi
[mention] https://david.shanske.com/2014/12/27/indieweb-2014-end-year-summary/ posted 'I found out about Indiewebcamp in March of 2014, so I have not yet been involved with it for a complete calendar year. But, I’ve decided, wi...' linking to http://indiewebcamp.com/like
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Loqi
[mention] https://david.shanske.com/2014/12/27/indieweb-2014-end-year-summary/ posted 'I found out about Indiewebcamp in March of 2014, so I have not yet been involved with it for a complete calendar year. But, I’ve decided, wi...' linking to http://indiewebcamp.com/photo
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Loqi
[mention] https://david.shanske.com/2014/12/27/indieweb-2014-end-year-summary/ posted 'I found out about Indiewebcamp in March of 2014, so I have not yet been involved with it for a complete calendar year. But, I’ve decided, wi...' linking to http://indiewebcamp.com/rsvp
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snarfed
e.g. with GWG's WP syndication plugin
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snarfed
you have to at least drop down to html to add web action links
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tantek
snarfed, "synd links manually without even knowing how to code" no you need to know how to code a synd link with rel=syndication
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Loqi
[mention] https://david.shanske.com/2014/12/27/indieweb-2014-end-year-summary/ posted 'I found out about Indiewebcamp in March of 2014, so I have not yet been involved with it for a complete calendar year. But, I’ve decided, wi...' linking to http://indiewebcamp.com
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Loqi
[mention] https://david.shanske.com/2014/12/27/indieweb-2014-end-year-summary/ posted 'I found out about Indiewebcamp in March of 2014, so I have not yet been involved with it for a complete calendar year. But, I’ve decided, wi...' linking to http://indiewebcamp.com/communication
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Loqi
[mention] https://david.shanske.com/2014/12/27/indieweb-2014-end-year-summary/ posted 'I found out about Indiewebcamp in March of 2014, so I have not yet been involved with it for a complete calendar year. But, I’ve decided, wi...' linking to http://indiewebcamp.com/repost
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snarfed
tantek: often yes, but not with GWG's WP plugin, like i said
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tantek
aaronpk, good time for indiewebcamp.com mention de-duping?
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tantek
or at least clustering from the same "source"?
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GWG
tantek: That keeps happening to me
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GWG
I wrote one analysis
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tantek
GWG, indeed. And you shouldn't be penalyzed for properly citing/referencing in your writing :)
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GWG
Spamming...
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GWG
snarfed: I need to go back to my plugin by the way. I think I messed up a conditional.
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tantek
snarfed, the plugin argument is flawed. similarly there are zillions of "social" plugins out there that add the simple silo-specific web action links.
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tantek
if you want to talk plugins, compare plugins
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tantek
otherwise, the amount of work required I think is pretty clear
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GWG
Web actions as noted could be construed as choosing your favorite silo.
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tantek
GWG - not explicit, but implicit. "most used" is implicit. "favorite" is explicit.
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tantek
so no, such construing would be illogical.
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tantek.com
edited /IndieMark (+49) "/* Level 2 web actions */ update action to indie-action tag, link to specific how to to make it easier"
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tantek.com
edited /IndieMark (+6) "/* web actions */ indie-action"
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GWG
I took web actions out because I can't figure out how they should work.
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GWG
You've observed me in here trying to figure out details.
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tantek
GWG web actions provide a minimal UI for a reader of your post to reply / like / repost it.
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tantek
The assumption is that you want people to read and interact with your posts.
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tantek
Based on the fact that they are a very common and useful / used UI aspect of silo posts.
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tantek
what was it that you couldn't figure out?
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GWG
When I implemented it, I had a few issues...
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tantek
GWG - did you document them?
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tantek
e.g. as quesitons
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tantek
s/quesitons/questions
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: e.g. as questions
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tantek
although "quesiton" sounds like a fundamental partical that makes up cheese, which sounds tasty.
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GWG
Well, I would rather, thinking about it now, have reply as a local reply.
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GWG
I wonder if there is a way to do like and repost locally
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tantek
There are more than two choices
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tantek
that's the point of web actions
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tantek
to put that choice in the hands of the reader
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tantek
so they can more easily use their own site to reply / like / repost
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tantek
as the publisher, you should only be choosing the fallback behavior
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tantek
rather than forcing the reader
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GWG
tantek: I'm thinking that the fallback behavior should be local, instead of silo though.
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GWG
tantek: You may have inspired me to revisit the issue
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tantek
GWG, local may be more user-unfriendly / user-data-ownership than silo though
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tantek
that's the problem
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GWG
But the web action would override that
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tantek
sorry, local maybe *less* user-data-ownership
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tantek
yes it would, that does not negate the need for better fallback
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GWG
But why is a silo the better fallback?
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GWG
I might as well do what some sites do and let the user select from a list of options.
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tantek
because a user's comments, faves, reposts are at least all in one place they can export and import into their own site at some point
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tantek
as opposed to spread across how many random sites
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tantek
that do not offer any way for them to find all their comments and export them / save them
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tantek
select from a list of options is a design cop-out
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tantek
and more work
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Loqi
Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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GWG
tantek: Until I decide what I want to do, I suppose it should stay undone.
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tantek
GWG, right, add it to your list of itches in order of priority
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tantek
so you know you've captured it and will eventually get to it when you feel it necessary
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GWG
I have to decide what is next anyway. I just did a bunch of things.
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GWG
Well, next after I fix the bug I noticed.
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tantek
cool. better to quickly add stuff to your itches page so that you don't have to worry about them.
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tantek
and it takes less work to do so.
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tantek
(e.g. than to figure out / fix a bug)
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tantek
In working on posting favorites from my own site, I'm realizing there are few if any "text first design" resources
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GWG
I wish there was
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tantek
I may have to write something brief about it
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@t
Much on: * mobile and/or content first design but not: * text first design * notification first design Too old or new? (ttk.me t4Zr6)
(twitter.com/_/status/549065379449147392)
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tantek
funny - even a designer friend has no idea - https://twitter.com/teleject/status/549065579185700864
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KartikPrabhu
weird G+ pattern. If you remove someone from circles i.e. unfollow them, then the previous post you received also disappear from timeline
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KartikPrabhu
is this what people expect from readers/following?
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KartikPrabhu
same is true of Feedly, reader
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GWG
Why not? If you stop wanting to see things...
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tantek
What is unfollow?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "unfollow" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=unfollow
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KartikPrabhu
because I may have liked/responded to previous posts
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tantek.com
created /unfollow (+1312) "stub with info off the top of my head and what Kartik noted in IRC, mostly just silo examples"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /follow (+44) "see also"
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tantek.com
created /friend (+23) "r for now"
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tantek.com
edited /friending (+28) "see also follow / unfollow"
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: the behavior among silos is inconsistent in the case you speak of: https://indiewebcamp.com/unfollow#Silo_Examples
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tantek
to answer your question of "is this what people expect from readers/following?" I don't know, since silo behavior is inconsistent
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tantek.com
edited /Twitter (+8) "unfollow now has a page, so link to it"
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: well that's one more Twitter Feature documented as a page on indiewebcamp.com - thanks for the prod / seed of additional data on G+ behavior
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KartikPrabhu
anyone endeavoring to replace Twitter completely by IWC 2015?
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tantek
and by that - you mean replace *their use of Twitter* presumably?
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GWG
Replace it with what?
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tantek
your own site
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: yes
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GWG
I can't even get my own mother to come to my website. I think the tools to interface with lay people are an issue.
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tantek
GWG - hence my correction
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tantek
replace *your* use of Twitter
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tantek
not your "own mother"
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KartikPrabhu
GWG: yes. I meant use you own site to do everything Twitter does for you. POSSE to Twitter included
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KartikPrabhu
if i recall that was posed as an informal challenge sometime back
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: yes - I posed that challenge a long time ago
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KartikPrabhu
yeah the reader bit is a big problem to solve for that
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tantek
similarly Barnaby posted the challenge to reduce your own use of Facebook rather than Facebook itself
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: there are many features, by reducing them to building blocks each becomes manageable
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KartikPrabhu
true. I solved the FB challenge by ceasing to post on FB all together
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tantek
most importantly, having a list helps, hence why I've written up: https://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#Features
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GWG
I may just go old school. Email
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tantek
GWG - except maintaining your own email server is too much of a pain - much much worse than web server
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tantek
Email will only make it worse for you
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GWG
tantek: I might go through a service. I'm not maintaining a mail server for my mother.
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GWG
I think Mandrill will give me 12,000 emails per month
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tantek.com
edited /notification (+181) "Platform Examples / iOS 7"
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tantek.com
edited /notification (+435) "/* Platform Examples */ add some textual summary of what's in the screenshot"
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tantek.com
edited /notification (+100) "/* Platform Examples */"
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tantek.com
edited /card (+83) "see also notifications"
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tantek.com
edited /notification (+201) "/* Platform Examples */ Note the differences"
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tantek
takes a look at aaronpk's /like design
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tantek
they sure *look* more like reposts ;)
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tantek
I believe notifiations provide a clue for how to design the appearance of like/favorite posts without appearing to be just reposts
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tantek
will post some brainstorms accordingly
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tantek.com
created /favorited (+22) "r"
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tantek.com
created /liked (+18) "r"
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tantek
does anyone here post "favorites" on their own site? or does everyone just do "like" posts?
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GWG
tantek: I set myself up to post favorites. But the difference is still a question.
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GWG
I sort of like acegiak's concept on that
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tantek
do you have any URLs to favorite post permalinks by you, acegiak, or anyone else?
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GWG
Not specifically.
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tantek
does anyone use u-favorite-of markup? or is it always u-like-of?
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GWG
I wrote it.
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GWG
But am not using it due issues with the difference between favorite and like
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GWG
I haven't decided what I wanted to use.
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tantek
did your plugin use u-favorite-of markup, or only u-like-of?
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GWG
Both
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GWG
u-favorite-of for favorites, u-like-of for likes
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tantek.com
edited /favorite (+537) "add Why, How, IndieWeb Examples (any so far?)"
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GWG
And yes, I now there is no bookmark-of.
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GWG
know.
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tantek.com
edited /favorite (-6) "/* Why */"
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tantek.com
edited /favorite (+165) "/* Why */ alternatively just support likes"
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: I just use "like" as a verb for both
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KartikPrabhu
don't see the need to make a distinction
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tantek
I am leaning that direction
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: when did you start supporting likes?
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KartikPrabhu
the response-context is not great but oh well
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tantek.com
edited /favorite (+13) "singular meaning the post type"
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KartikPrabhu
also bridgy uses a u-like-of for Twitter favourites
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tantek.com
edited /like (+1108) "capture some brainstorming based on text first design of like posts"
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tantek.com
edited /like (+358) "add IndieWeb Example Aaron Parecki"
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tantek
odd - I don't see aaronpk's likes of tweets being POSSEd to Twitter, i.e. to twitter.com/aaronpk/favorites
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tantek
or I'm seeing lots of favorites on twitter.com/aaronpk/favorites that are not on aaronparecki.com/likes - so aaronpk hasn't *quite* started owning his favorites yet ;)
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tantek
KartikPrabhu I'm pretty sure I have the plain text design of my favorites posts figured out
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KartikPrabhu
nice! fwiw I always have interpreted "content-first" as "text-first" then images
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tantek
note in particular the clustered presentation of three sequential likes
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KartikPrabhu
i think including it explicitly is a good idea
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tantek
including what?
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: I meant explictly naming and explaining it as "Text first"
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tantek
ah yes
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tantek
I had wondered why nearly no one else had done so
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KartikPrabhu
all the fanciness can come later
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tantek
right. ultimate minimalism then progressive enhancement
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KartikPrabhu
i always thought that's what content first meant!
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KartikPrabhu
for instance, I always write the text version of posts first and then add images to the text to help it along
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KartikPrabhu
it is progressive enhancement of HTML through its history of being text first and then images and then video etc...
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KartikPrabhu
I have a whole article in mind on how progressive enhancement is actually how scientists have been working all along. but writing that is a process of its own
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KartikPrabhu
too many thoughts to organise
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tantek
collect them into chunks in a text file
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tantek
eventually patterns will emerge
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tantek
like re-arranging pieces of a jigsaw puzzle
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KartikPrabhu
they are in my head until I write them down :) writing thoughts down maks them too rigid for my brain
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tantek
solution to that is to keep writing down multiple expressions of the same thought
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KartikPrabhu
it is psychological more than anything else
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KartikPrabhu
luckily I have better than average memory for nebulous thoughts... but yes I will make a draft post soon
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: I might differ with your assertion, how scientists have been working all along is more *reductive* than *constructive*
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tantek
breaking things apart into smaller and smaller pieces, rather than building up from the smallest piece
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tantek
the latter is the exception, not the rule
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KartikPrabhu
aah science facts vs science process... I want to address that too
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KartikPrabhu
of course you can leave comments :)
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asdofindia
is unhosted.org the same idea as indiewebcamp.com ?
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tantek
asdofindia: as with any negative framing, it's not clear what "unhosted" (or "not hosted") actually means or what idea it represents
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tantek
asdofindia: OTOH, the home page of indiewebcamp.com says right there what it's about (your content is yours, you are better connected, you are in control), and how it's different from past attempts like blogging and "decentralization".
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KartikPrabhu
asdofindia: welcome! as for your question, unhosted.org seems to be more about uhosted apps or whatever. Indieweb is more about owning your content ( things that you post online ) using your own domain name instead of silos like Twitter or G+
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asdofindia
:D yes, but tbh indiewebcamp homepage is slightly more intimidating than unhosted homepage :P
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tantek.com
edited /Main_Page (+8) "/* Homebrew Website Club */ next one is 2015-01-14!"
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tantek.com
edited /Main_Page (+1) "/* Homebrew Website Club */ oxford comma"
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KartikPrabhu
asdofindia: yes it is. it is not for broawsing but for reading :)
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tantek
asdofindia: really? in looking at unhosted.org it seems much more full of jargon and techno-details than indiewebcamp.com
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asdofindia
okay, as far as I understand, unhosted just makes candidate apps for http://indiewebcamp.com/projects
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tantek
asdofindia: not really. most indiewebcamp projects people install and run on their own server.
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tantek
asdofindia: what do you find more intimidating (at all) about indiewebcamp.com?
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asdofindia
lol. are you at odds with unhosted project? :P I just thought it'd be the same people behind both these sites.
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asdofindia
basically, indiwebcamp is about installing existing apps on our own domain and then pushing the updates to silos. Am I right?
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tantek
asdofindia: most of us write our own software for our sites, and don't really think of them as separate "apps" per se - do you consider WordPress to be an "app"?
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asdofindia
tantek, well not very intimidating, but distracting. But it lasts only a few minutes I think. I now have a better mind map of how indiewebcamp.com is structured so that I can read through
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tantek
asdofindia: not at odds but rather a difference of focus of principles
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tantek
(if you like lists :) )
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tantek
indiewebcamp is a community - rather than "a project" - that's a big difference
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tantek
we also place a very high emphasis on selfdogfooding - which few other efforts do
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: in continuing my research of "like" post presentation, it appears FB presents like posts with a full copy of the thing that was liked!
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asdofindia
posse must be easy. Does backfeed work in practice?
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tantek
it does! quite well for the folks that have set it up
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asdofindia
backfeed is meant for me, right? the others are not supposed to see the backfeed?
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tantek
they see the effects of it on your posts
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asdofindia
i mean, if i make a post, and backfeed the facebook comments, it'd be visible if i login to my server as facebook.
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tantek
not quite, the idea is that the backfed facebook comments show up on your post as any other comments would
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tantek
you can see this often on posts by e.g. benwerd on werd.io
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asdofindia
so I am pulling the comments from facebook and permanently appending it to my server, under the posts.
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tantek
right!
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asdofindia
okay. i'm liking this.
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tantek
so even if FB disappears - you still have the entire conversation on your posts on your server
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tantek
if/when
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asdofindia
do you even posse the replies to those comments? :D
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asdofindia
beautiful
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tantek
best of both worlds: everything on your server under your control, and your friends that use FB get to see the conversation there
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tantek
so it works *today* without having to wait for everyone to have their own site
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tantek
but if/when you do have your own site, you benefit immediately
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tantek
without having to wait for anyone else
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KartikPrabhu
poo got logged out!
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tantek.com
edited /like (+416) "/* Silo Examples */ update FB example like post with more details"
(view diff)
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: yes FB does show the full post you faved
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KartikPrabhu
faved/liked
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KartikPrabhu
which is all good for a silo, but for indieweb a good response-context is pretty good.
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KartikPrabhu
no need to show the whole 1000 word article if you don't wan tto
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: note that the like post permalink presentation on FB is not easily visible
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KartikPrabhu
ha yeah I have noticed that
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KartikPrabhu
all silos are bad wrt to permalinks
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tantek
so it may not have the same detail applied to it
#
tantek
the other place such "like" posts are shown is in the right sidebar
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KartikPrabhu
afaik those are more like notifications
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tantek.com
edited /like (+609) "/* Facebook */ note like posts in stream appear much more succinctly with example"
(view diff)
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: which is why I started documenting them
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KartikPrabhu
sdofindia do you have a domain name that you use?
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KartikPrabhu
s/sdofindia/asdofindia
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Loqi
KartikPrabhu meant to say: asdofindia do you have a domain name that you use?
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asdofindia
KartikPrabhu, yes. But right now I'm hosting it off github pages :D
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KartikPrabhu
that is fine
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KartikPrabhu
does unhosted.org help you in anyway to do this?
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asdofindia
well, a lot of things can be run client side. unhosted helps in that.
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asdofindia
but then when it's client side backfeed cannot work.
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asdofindia
(It could work, if I keep the comments in silos itself. But that beats the point)
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KartikPrabhu
asdofindia: doing everything client-side i.e. with javascript is not a good idea in general. specially for owning your data
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asdofindia
but it might be a cheaper way for a lot of people to be independent on the web.
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KartikPrabhu
asdofindia: but it is a bad way. if you JS everything then I can not parse and comment on your post becasue there is no HTML
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KartikPrabhu
and I really don't want to parse JS on my readers clients! who knows what that'll do
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asdofindia
Do you wanna hear something ambitious? I'm thinking of setting up a google app engine/heroku which will backfeed comments by committing them into the github pages repo
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KartikPrabhu
asdofindia: isn't that depending on 2 silos :)
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asdofindia
:D but I have control of the URLs :P
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KartikPrabhu
if you are doing that why not host your site on app engine or heroku
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asdofindia
because app engine/heroku has limitations on uptime (?) and storage
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KartikPrabhu
looks good to me as a stop-gap measure, but I'd be cautious of putting too much in there
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KartikPrabhu
hey prtksxna wassup on indiewebbing?
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prtksxna
KartikPrabhu: o/
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KartikPrabhu
asdofindia: wht is your URL?
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tantek.com
edited /like (+770) "/* Facebook */ add right-side notifications stream examples"
(view diff)
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KartikPrabhu
I like to see other site desgins :)
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asdofindia
learnlearn.in
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prtksxna
KartikPrabhu: Setup my feed to use the latest version of my theme using git instead of having forked code.
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prtksxna
KartikPrabhu: Adding social links to theme settings today so that I can add the <link rel="me"…> today!
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KartikPrabhu
asdofindia: ooo more participants from india cool! have you met prtksxna
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asdofindia
no
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prtksxna
Hello asdofindia \o
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asdofindia
hello prtksxna
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prtksxna
How far along are you in this journey asdofindia?
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asdofindia
just starting. static htmls for now
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KartikPrabhu
asdofindia: from your github it looks like you are a python-person maybe you are interested in http://indiewebcamp.com/python#IndieWeb_Examples
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tantek.com
edited /like (+227) "/* Facebook */ note odd use of present tense "likes" verb in right-side notifications stream when other microcopy verbs there are all past tense"
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asdofindia
lol KartikPrabhu I see you in that list
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KartikPrabhu
of course ;)
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KartikPrabhu
unfortunately my project is in no shape to be open source but i do recommend chekcing out Red Wind
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KartikPrabhu
by kylewm
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tantek
really odd about FB using present tense "likes" verb yet past tense "commented", "tagged" etc.
#
tantek
even "shared" is past tense
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: yes have noticed that inconsistency too
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tantek
unlikely that's a mistake, likely there was a deliberate reason for "likes" instead of "liked"
#
tantek
in their microcopy design
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tantek
but I have no idea why
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asdofindia
liked this (in the past, but no longer)
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KartikPrabhu
maybe to imply "still likes it" instead of "liked this in the past" ?
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tantek
perhaps
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tantek
focusing on the emotional state (present, likes), rather than the action ("liked")
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KartikPrabhu
fwiw: I use all of those as nouns as in "like of" and "reply to" instead of bothering with tenses. But would like to use verbs
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KartikPrabhu
nouns are passive verbs are active
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: I will likely use the designs I'm brainstorming here http://indiewebcamp.com/like#text_design
#
tantek
but now I'm wondering if I should also use the present tense "likes"
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tantek
since that's what people are used to seeing
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: I don't know how persistent the congnitive effect of past v/s present tense is
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KartikPrabhu
judas priest! too late in the morning to spell!
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tantek.com
edited /like (+288) "/* Facebook */ Possible explanation of deliberate use of present tense "likes" verb in contrast to other past tense verbs"
(view diff)
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KartikPrabhu
prtksxna: good to use latest code on site. I should do that! :)
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KartikPrabhu
sorry for late reply... editing paper while chatting
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: funny thing, in now having thought that through, along with that hypothesis of an explanation, and re-reading the prose in the image in http://indiewebcamp.com/notification#Platform_Examples - I think they would sound better with "likes"
catsup joined the channel
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tantek
e.g. "idealisms likes your photo."
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tantek
rather than "idealisms liked your photo."
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: yes. it seems a very subtle distinction
#
tantek
subtle but improved in terms of emotional communication and response
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KartikPrabhu
yes. but it is again an exception to "replied to" or ""reposted"
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KartikPrabhu
you can't use "replies to" or "reposts"
#
tantek
but I don't need to - I simply post the reply
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@chrislillytv
My #WebSeries @justusguystv passed 1000 @YouTube subscribers today! Woo hoo! #indie #indieweb #parenting #youtube https://twitter.com/chrislillytv/status/549148661079216128/photo/1
(twitter.com/_/status/549148661079216128)
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KartikPrabhu
yes. but does the original appear as "replied to postXYZ" or "replies to postXYZ" ?
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tantek
and my reply-context says "In reply to:"
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KartikPrabhu
i mean response-context
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tantek
I only show the reply-context on the reply permalink, not in-stream
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KartikPrabhu
i see. "likes" with "in reply to" and "repost of" makes sense
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KartikPrabhu
that webseries by @chrislillytv is not very indie
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tantek.com
edited /like (+270) "/* text design */ deliberately use "likes" instead of "liked""
(view diff)
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tantek
KartikPrabhu I haven't gotten to repost of yet, or rather, not since we last discussed it in New York: http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/reposts#Repost_presentation
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: in any case your "text first" approach should resolve any conflicts
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tantek
indeed
#
tantek
another reason "like" is better than "favorite" - the equivalent present tense for favorite, e.g. "favorites", doesn't make sense nor read well.
#
tantek
"likes" works well as both the present state of liking, and implying an explicit liking action in the past
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tantek
that's enough for tonight. will sleep on it and see about adding markup to that text design in the morning. then it's a small matter from there to implementation in Falcon :)
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KartikPrabhu
boom! night tantek
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asdofindia
after tthinking so much I realized one thing. I don't really care about interaction with friends :P
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charles.stanho.pe
created /User:Charles.stanho.pe (+921) "Initial content"
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Phyks
btw, is there any specific reason for your publishing softwares to be closed source and only part of them to be open source ?
#
Phyks
are they too tailor made ? or something like this ?
#
@amblin
@myrPaul Indieweb has gotten me excited about the web again.
(twitter.com/_/status/549243353855197184)
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tantek
Phyks - yes - too tailor made and likely too fragile. At least speaking for myself.
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tantek
realized I need to put the "when did I like this thing" datetime (or perhaps just time) in the like posts design to have something to link to a permalink
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Phyks
because when one first comes on the indiewebcamp wiki, it's a bit difficult to find a solution to try easily
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Phyks
well, there is known, but it is the only "user-friendly" one I am aware of
#
Phyks
(+wordpress)
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Phyks
and people interested in POSSE and selfhosting may not have yet the knowledge necessary to build their own solutions
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tantek
Phyks, true on all accounts. There's also RedWind which recently picked up its second user.
#
tantek
One of the driving goals of indiewebcamp is to design/develop protocols & formats & methods (like POSSE) to be as simple/minimal as possible so that more people *can* build their own solutions.
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tantek
There is strength in multiple projects supporting common protocols/formats/methods
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tantek
as opposed to every other attempt at this kind of thing which assumes "Everybody go install this one project"
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tantek
AKA monoculture
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tantek.com
edited /notification (+399) "/* iOS 7 */"
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snarfed
happy birthday aaronpk!
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tantek.com
edited /notification (+20) "/* Instagram */ brs"
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tantek
!tell aaronpk Happy Birthday!!!
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek.com
created /birthday (+486) "stub"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
created /🎂 (+22) "r"
(view diff)
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tantek
!tell aaronpk I maded you a page: https://indiewebcamp.com/🎂 :D
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Phyks
yep, I understand the monoculture thing
#
Phyks
and I totally agree on this
#
Phyks
but newbies may lack some demo implementations sometimes, or have troubles to find them in the wiki
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Phyks
it's just something I noticed lately as I was going through the wiki
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tantek
Phyks - agreed - we are working on improving the /projects page accordingly
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Phyks
nice !
#
tantek
there's definitely plenty of areas indiewebcamp can be improved! :)
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Phyks
(especially, in the examples page, there is both ready to use projects and tailored made ones)
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tantek
right - that in particular needs to be better clarified, and what we're trying to do with the section at the top
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tantek
well that's different - those are all *people* not projects
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tantek
that's another difference, our real world examples are people-centric rather than project-centric
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Phyks
yep, but there are plenty of links to Falcon / p3k / Taproot and as a new comer I was expecting to be able to download them
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tantek
there are plenty of links to those because those were some of the first IndieWeb implementations to be developed
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Phyks
I missed the /projects page
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Phyks
or at least spent way more time on the /notes one than on the /projects one
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tantek
it's in the sidebar :)
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Phyks
(true) but it's exactly what I was missing
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tantek
indeed, I am realizing it was a bit buried in the middle of the home page
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tantek.com
edited /Main_Page (+107) "move get started and projects to before Beyond Blogging so it doesn't appear to be only part of that, emphasize people-focused"
(view diff)
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tantek
Phyks, you've already found /projects now, however I updated the home page slightly to hopefully make "projects we're building" more prominent / obvious
#
tantek
Who thinks their WordPress site is particularly nicely designed / pretty?
#
tantek
and/or posts frequently?
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Phyks
I've never used wordpress for personal blogging, sorry
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tantek
no problem, I'm working on an incremental improvement to /Projects :)
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Phyks
but maybe soon there will be one new Known instance as it seems to perfectly fit my needs and I'd rather extend it than reinvent the wheel
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tantek
yes, Known is quite good
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Phyks
nice @ new homepage
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tantek
ok kylewm I'm declaraing RedWind no longer "experimental" since you have a second active user :)
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Phyks
also, concerning indieauth, is it planned to be able to selfhost it also, a bit like what openID was offering ?
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Phyks
I read something about it, but cannot find the info again…
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tantek
Phyks it *is* possible to self host it - details on the /IndieAuth page
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Phyks
everything is in the wiki… i just simply don't search efficiently
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Loqi
[bridgy] ☁FollowerSale.com replied '@t Increase your business reach to new dimensions - 40% discount bit.ly/1wZOeHe' to a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/like#Brainstorming (https://twitter.com/hunepicojuvo/status/549258669863743488)
#
Loqi
[bridgy] ☁FollowerSale.com replied '@t Increase your business reach to new dimensions - 40% discount bit.ly/1wZOeHe' to a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/notification#Platform_Examples (https://twitter.com/hunepicojuvo/status/549258669863743488)
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@1JohnLivesay
RT @chrislillytv: My #WebSeries @justusguystv passed 1000 @YouTube subscribers today! Woo hoo! #indie #indieweb #parenting #youtube http://…
(twitter.com/_/status/549261697186537472)
gmack_, wolftune and gmack joined the channel
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GWG
Tantek, snarfed has a nice clean site using a standard WordPress theme.
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tantek
indeed!
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tantek
petermolnar's is quite nice too, yet looks different from snarfed's
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GWG
I am thinking of redoing mine again. I used Bootstrap.
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GWG
I thought I might try without training wheels
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GWG
Tantek, the nice thing about WordPress is it is skinable.
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tantek.com
edited /projects (+287) "clean-up Known entry a bit, move WordPress and Red Wind up to main list up top since they are installable and usable today"
(view diff)
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tantek
ok there we go, Known, WordPress, and Red Wind all open source, installable, and bumped to the top of /Projects
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tantek
thanks for the reminder / poke Phyks!
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tantek.com
edited /projects (-42) "/* Get On The IndieWeb */ use people templates where they already exist"
(view diff)
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Phyks
wow nice ! thanks for the update !
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GWG
That's how community works. Ask and someone updates the wiki.
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GWG
It's usually Tantek, which is why the term tanteking was coined
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tantek
Phyks we try to be very responsive to good feedback :)
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tantek
(even critical feedback, especially)
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tantek.com
created /friends (+23) "r for now"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /like (+1156) "/* text design */ explicitly note dates of like posts to provide context and a permalink hook, splitting times and date in clustered in-stream view, and where times/dates link to"
(view diff)
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tantek
comments / feedback on like post (and cluster of likes) design? http://indiewebcamp.com/like#text_design
#
tantek
(i'll be checking IRC logs)
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GWG
I just finished fiddling with this and now you do it?
#
GWG
TIming...
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tantek.com
edited /like (+319) "/* Facebook */ subheads for each section"
(view diff)
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tantek
GWG - you could have explicitly documented your design process as well before you fiddled with it
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tantek
I haven't written any code yet
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tantek
UX and design first
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tantek
I am practicing open source design by putting it on the wiki as well which is CC0 which means anyone can copy my design ideas
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tantek
GWG - also, I believe I *did* recommend to you to first design a plain text version without all the layout and type and stuff
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tantek
and that's exactly what I ended up doing when I got around to it
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tantek.com
edited /like (+117) "/* text design */ linky"
(view diff)
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GWG
tantek: It was more rhetorical. I alway have that sort of timing.
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GWG
I need to document what I ended up doing on the reply-context page.
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GWG
I saved time by marking up like-context, reply-context, etc identically
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GWG
Or does that belong somewhere else than reply-context examples?
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tantek
they're not all the same
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tantek
reply-context is specifically important because it is *context* for what your reply is about - without it the reply might not make much sense
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tantek
there's no such thing as a "like-context"
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tantek
there's no need to show any context to explain a "like"
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tantek
*however*, what people (silos, others) do do is often show a /link-preview of what they've linked to in a post, whether a note with a link, a bookmark, or a like.
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GWG
I'm using the same code, but I'm still working on the terminology
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GWG
So, link-preview is probably better, but how much is shown is set by how much data I enter in the UI
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aaronpk
good morning!
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Loqi
aaronpk: tantek left you a message 1 hour, 47 minutes ago: Happy Birthday!!!
#
Loqi
aaronpk: tantek left you a message 1 hour, 38 minutes ago: I maded you a page: https://indiewebcamp.com/🎂 :D
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aaronpk
hehe thanks
#
snarfed
re the mention of replacing your own twitter usage…i feel like i've done that since early this year. reading, tweeting, replying, favoriting, retweeting
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snarfed
i now go to dev.twitter.com way more than twitter.com :P
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snarfed
(the latter maybe once a month or two)
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aaronpk
what do you use for reading? i forgot
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snarfed
supports four-tap (roughly) reply/like/RT
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snarfed
(that's all https://snarfed.org/easy-indieweb-interactions-on-android , not the reader or twitter-atom, but still)
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tantek
snarfed++
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Loqi
snarfed has 65 karma
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snarfed
not sure if that satisfies the challenge, but fwiw.
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snarfed
heads off to write up his 2015-01-01 thing
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tantek
snarfed: you've certainly reached the highest level of independence from Twitter (while still supporting friends there) that I know of.
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snarfed
thanks!
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tantek
looks forward to snarfed's post about how he's replaced his Twitter usage over the past year :D
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snarfed
heh. can't say i plan to write that post - i've documented all the parts, and i guess i'm just not that personally motivated to write up the integration - but maybe!
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aaronpk
oh interesting
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aaronpk
https://twitter.com/aaronpk/favorites shows my favorites in reverse date order of the original tweet
#
aaronpk
not in the order of when I favorited them
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aaronpk
that's why tantek saw a bunch of favorites there that aren't on my site
#
@aaronpk
@jkphl Thanks! :-) Looking forward to meeting again at IndieWebCamp DE!
(twitter.com/_/status/549282518118060032)
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aaronpk
oh that's awful, I can't even reliably PESOS favorites from twitter because they aren't returned in favorited order in the API
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aaronpk
even more reason to use my own favoriting interface instead of the twitter star button
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wwelves.org perpetual-tripper
edited /HTTPS (+130) "/* Obtain */ added Let's Encrypt provider"
(view diff)
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neuro`
Good morning
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Phyks
hmmm… is #microformats the right place to discuss about microformats and how to implement them ?
#
GWG
Phyks: Depends. Sometimes
#
Phyks
because there does not seem to be much activity
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#
Phyks
(I was wondering how to parse h-feed as all the properties are optionnal, if I understood correctly)
#
aaronpk
has anyone else had problems with the IndiePub known plugin?
#
aaronpk
specifically it looks like the get() function here is running even for POST requests https://github.com/idno/IndiePub/blob/master/Pages/IndieAuth/Token.php
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Phyks
aaronpk: I tried to set it up, but I had errors with quill, unable to find the endpoint and I hadn't have time to look at it
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ben_thatmust
ick, not liking the look of android dev
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ben_thatmust
was hoping to write a webmention notify app or micropub client
#
aaronpk
Phyks: that just sounds like the indiepub plugin is not enabled
#
Phyks
on my instance ?
#
Phyks
hmm… how do you know ?
#
Phyks
because Known tells me it is both installed *and* activated
#
aaronpk
well if quill is unable to find the endpoint, then it sounds like known isn't putting the tags in the page
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aaronpk
i don't know how themes work in Known, but maybe a different theme would have the tags in the header?
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Phyks
aaronpk: I see <link rel="authorization_endpoint" href="https://indieauth.com/auth">
#
Phyks
<link rel="token_endpoint" href="http://known.phyks.me/indieauth/token">
#
Phyks
<link rel="micropub" href="http://known.phyks.me/micropub/endpoint"><link
#
Phyks
in my headers
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Phyks
(quill fails after the auth itself, it finds the head tags, but known does not seem to be routing them)
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aaronpk
hm maybe we are having the same problem
#
aaronpk
hm I just get a 404 from your token endpoint, which is not quite what i'm seeing on mine
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aaronpk
I also don't know how URL routing works in Known, so I'm kind of stuck when it comes to troubleshooting this
#
Phyks
same for me… I know that the plugin is registering routes, and after a bit of debug, it seems the registering is called
#
Phyks
I did not have time to debug more since yesterday =(
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GWG
I need a second set of eyes
#
GWG
The README in this repository, does the description make sense.
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