#indiewebcamp 2014-12-29

2014-12-29 UTC
KartikPrabhu and tantek joined the channel
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KartikPrabhu
snarfed++ for replacing Twitter use!
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Loqi
snarfed has 66 karma
elf-pavlik, michielbdejong, mlncn and tantek joined the channel
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tantek.com
edited /HTTPS (+74) "emphasize *today* for obtain, don't need any vapor here diluting the effectiveness/actionability of this section. move Let's Encrypt to possible future"
(view diff)
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GWG
tantek: I like the vision of it
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tantek
GWG: talk is cheap. shipping is what counts
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tantek
I'm not a hug fan of announcements >6 months before supposed ship dates.
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tantek
s/hug/huge
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: I'm not a huge fan of announcements >6 months before supposed ship dates.
mdik_, clintpatty, KevinMarks, agaric, Acidnerd, KartikPrabhu and KevinMarks_ joined the channel
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asdofindia
If there are href="" links on a page, it'll refer to the current URL from inside the browser. But it's not good, right?
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KevinMarks_
Twitter for Android app has logged out all android users. Yay.
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KevinMarks_
reads history
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KevinMarks_
!tell Tantek Facebook's present continuous "likes" is coherent, but also serves them as they like to imply that liking a brand is ongoing permission for it to post to your feed
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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KevinMarks_
!tell ben_thatmust I have an Android notify app built for twitter that I'd like to add webmention support to - let's collaborate
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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KevinMarks_
Asdofindia: it's not terrible. If you want to force a refresh use hrefj"
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KevinMarks_
S/hrefj/href="#/
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asdofindia
no i was just reading http://tantek.com/log/2002/11.html#L20021128t1352 . my link actually is a permalink link :P
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GWG
KevinMarks_: Can I ask about this Android thing?
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KevinMarks_
Twitter android client has logged us all out, and fails when we try to log in again
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GWG
KevinMarks_: I meant... I have an Android notify app built for twitter that I'd like to add webmention support to - let's collaborate
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GWG
I was curious about what the Android notify webmention thing
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@kevinmarks
The @android twitter client just gives us this login then fails when we use it. Good job I have #indieweb ... https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/549415843889549312/photo/1
(twitter.com/_/status/549415843889549312)
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KevinMarks_
Ah, I have an app called flowpast that turns selected tweets into android notifications
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KevinMarks_
I need to update it for lollipop and would love to add webmention support
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KevinMarks_
It's a polling app though
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GWG
KevinMarks_: You've inspired me to update the wiki
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ben_thatmust
KevinMarks_: that would be great. I was just going to try to see what I can do with phonegap though, i don't know what it supports/doesn't support
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david.shanske.com
edited /mention-app (+256) "/* Interim Solution */"
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ben_thatmust
obviously indie-auth will have to be all done on its own as there isn't a URL to redirect to
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ben_thatmust
I just got a Moto360 as a gift too, so i would love to add android wear support
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KevinMarks_
You get wear support for notifications by default
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KevinMarks_
Though the actions happen on the phone
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GWG
I got an LG G Watch refurbbed cheap. But I still don't like it as much as the Pebble
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@Nithin
RT @kevinmarks: The @android twitter client just gives us this login then fails when we use it. Good job I have #indieweb ... http://t.co/…
(twitter.com/_/status/549417347513995264)
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ben_thatmust
it would be great to have "blacklist"/"Spam" from the watch
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ben_thatmust
anyway, off to bed for me
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ben_thatmust
I'll dig in to it KevinMarks_ I may be looking at starting from scratch with phonegap first, hopefully get it working on lots of other platforms too
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KevinMarks_
About time I hacked on that again
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@kevinmarks
@joestump @buster thing is, your experience would be like all android twitter users at the moment, because silos fail at scale #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/549432093647073282)
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@Fullantho
RT @kevinmarks: The @android twitter client just gives us this login then fails when we use it. Good job I have #indieweb ... http://t.co/…
(twitter.com/_/status/549437129038643202)
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KevinMarks_
Tonight in silo bashing
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Loqi
tantek: KevinMarks_ left you a message 1 hour, 55 minutes ago: Facebook's present continuous "likes" is coherent, but also serves them as they like to imply that liking a brand is ongoing permission for it to post to your feed
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KevinMarks_
Extra fun as I have no twitter client on my phone
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tantek
that actually makes sense as "liking a brand" is essentially a proxy for "following a brand"
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tantek
and thus having their posts show up in your "reader" view (AKA news feed) makes sense
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KevinMarks_
The equivalent for favourite might be "Kevin favors your post"
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tantek
that's interesting as "favors" implies relative to something else
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KevinMarks_
Right, but it is not a superlative like favourite
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tantek
Right, Flickr diluted the meaning of "favorite". Or perhaps IE did.
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tantek
favorite in common parlance implies above other choices
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KevinMarks_
Well, in flickr it is primarily a plural - your favourite photos
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tantek
it's odd that "favorite" became a toggle, as it's "normal" meaning is favorite among a set
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tantek
e.g. favorite color, favorite ice cream etc.
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KevinMarks_
Which is clearer than "your most liked photos"
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tantek
and you're supposed to have *one*
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tantek
of that set
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KevinMarks_
Hm, you can say "one of my favourite x"
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tantek
again, that's a dilution
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tantek
in common terms, you have *a* favorite color, *a* favorite movie, etc.
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tantek
*a* favorite book, etc.
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KevinMarks_
There I'm implying I have lots of Chesterton essays I enjoy
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KevinMarks_
Which is a little arch of me
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KevinMarks_
Hence "playing favourites"
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tantek
right
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KevinMarks_
So it is a bit tricky to favourite a person
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KevinMarks_
Favourite is a better noun than like, like is a better verb
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tantek
yet iOS has "favorites" in Facetime
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tantek
which is essentially favoriting a person
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tantek
they might as well have called the feature "Besties"
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tantek
or "BFFs"
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KevinMarks_
Jibot had a "favor" verb that only jeanniecool could use
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KevinMarks_
To make people her favourites in that sense
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tantek
wow how did you find that post asdofindia! That's an old one!
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asdofindia
tantek, i was following http://microformats.org/wiki/posh
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tantek
alright I'm going back to actual useful design iterations - not sure this favorite semantics tangent has any indieweb relevance
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KevinMarks_
Thinking about the text is interesting
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tantek
only if you're doing it towards building something
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KevinMarks_
Fair. Android changed a star in contacts to the word "favourites" in the latest version
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tantek
copying iOS
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tantek
it (favorite people) is a dumb patch of a bad UI anyway (contacts). the right answer is to go straight to people-centric comms as blogged. citation in /comms
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tantek
no need for a contacts app when you can arrange your contacts by their faces in home screen pages and folders
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tantek
all the mobile "contacts" default app UIs are badly polished 1990s turds
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tantek
even Apple's "Contacts" just looks like bad Lotus Notes or PalmOS from back in the day
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snarfed
KevinMarks: just fyi, the twitter app on my phone is working fine. it hasn't logged me out
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snarfed
maybe i misunderstood you?
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kylewm
more lovely UX from android twitter app... it's asking me "Authorize SNS to use your account?"
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kylewm
what is SNS?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "SNS" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=SNS
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KevinMarks__
Interesting snarfed. It happened to a lot of people - apparently they have servers with clocks set to 2015 breaking auth
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snarfed
KevinMarks__: wow. you think they have production servers with *three days* worth of clock skew? hard to believe
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tantek
that's pretty sad/funny
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tantek
uncoupling a bunch of design decisions
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KevinMarks__
It's a whole year off
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tantek.com
edited /like (+2324) "/* Brainstorming */ notification first design, text only design, iterate hypertext design"
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tantek
now to markup the hypertext designs
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tantek.com
edited /like (+58) "/* Brainstorming */ next step: markup for hypertext design"
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KartikPrabhu, musigny, eburcat, daf, mlncn-agaric, tantek, kerosene_, friedcell, KartikPrabhu1, eschnou, danlyke, michielbdejong, prtksxna and petermolnar joined the channel
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@mapkyca
Ran a successful first full test of my Flickr to @withknown photo and video import tool (https://github.com/mapkyca/KnownFlickrImport) overnight! #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/549498487461937152)
j12t, Sebastien-L, stream7, dns53, friedcell1, csarven and Kopfstein joined the channel
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GWG
Morning all
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hugoroyd
hey mapkyca
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hugoroyd
so, i'm now on the extra-info branch
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hugoroyd
which just had Pages/Callback.php | 2 +-
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hugoroyd
mapkyca: it works this time
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mapkyca
ahh... didn't check this window - glad it's working for you now! (new flickr plugin just captures the nsid from the api, so it's a small change)
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mapkyca
updated the importer to catch the error - basically it wasn't handling the old style syndication structure very well.
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mapkyca
Thanks for the help!
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hugoroyd
thanks for the plugin
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hugoroyd
i also fixed the video typo :)
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hugoroyd
if you like fixing bugs, this one is quite annoying :)
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mapkyca
I can see that! I'm sure this is'll be on the todo list somewhere, but the fix may be a migration script... essentially a find and replace on the database. :/
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hugoroyd
mapkyca: yeah that's what i thought :-)
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hugoroyd
do you know how to use mongo a little bit?
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mapkyca
A very little (although I'm on mongo myself), my thoughts is that this could be done at the object level (see comments on the bug)
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hugoroyd
mapkyca: this could be a test for the export functionality of known ;-)
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mapkyca
@hugoroyd true, that'd be one approach. For that matter, a find and replace on a JSON dump might be somewhat easier to accomplish...
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hugoroyd
mapkyca: yeah i'm trying to figure out how to get to edit that dump ^^
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hugoroyd
i only get "bson"
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mapkyca
hmm... I get a zip with plain text json... admittedly in separate files. Might need some script-fu...
davidmead, Sebastien-L, KartikPrabhu, prtksxna and veselosky joined the channel
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ben_thatmustbeme
hmm realized i should just have a feed of recent webmentions, then IFTTT can notify me of changes
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ben_thatmustbeme
its polling, but its better than nothing
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aaronpk
ben_thatmustbeme: yeah! that's the idea behind /mention-app
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aaronpk
and then one step better than polling using PuSH to notify consumers that the feed has been updated
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ben_thatmustbeme
yeah, thats what i'd like to do
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ben_thatmustbeme
it looks like phonegap can do all the things needed
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aaronpk
yeah probably
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aaronpk
wow "Found 735 friends with URLs"
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snarfed
your dl will take a while :P
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Loqi
[mention] David Mead commented 'One person's title, is anothers caption. Moving content between silos #indieweb 2 min read I...' on a post that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (http://blog.davidjohnmead.com/2014/one-persons-title-is-anothers-caption-moving-content-between-silos)
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Loqi
[mention] David Mead commented 'One person's title, is anothers caption. Moving content between silos #indieweb 2 min read I...' on a post that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/pesos (http://blog.davidjohnmead.com/2014/one-persons-title-is-anothers-caption-moving-content-between-silos)
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aaronpk
ok yeah definitely that is the next clustering of notifications
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aaronpk
when a single post sends webmentions to multiple pages on the domain
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davidmead
hmm. didn’t know i’d “spam” the room with my post :-/
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aaronpk
it's fine :)
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neuro`
Good morning.
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aaronpk
davidmead: interesting. ownyourgram sends your instagram caption as the "content" field which is meant to be the body of the post, not the title
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aaronpk
so it must be Known deciding to save it in the title instead
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aaronpk
ownyourgram also sends a "category" field with the hashtags in your photos, so Known could be looking for that as well
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aaronpk
yep looks like Known says "if there is no name provided, then use the content as the name and don't store content" https://github.com/idno/IndiePub/blob/master/Pages/MicroPub/Endpoint.php#L50
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davidmead
good to know. maybe I can bring that up to @benwerd, or post it as an isuue on github
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davidmead
could the #hashtag be parsed to the “content” and leave the rest in the “title”?
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aaronpk
sure, but that may not always make sense for everyone
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aaronpk
for example I have several friends who type really long captions on instagram, way too long for a title
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aaronpk
in that case it may make more sense to use the hashtags as the title and the caption as the content
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davidmead
i’m trying to think ahead. the hashtags can be clicked when in the content of a Known post to show just those posts. this setup at the moment destroys this
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davidmead
think that’d be useful for everyone
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aaronpk
does Known not have a separate list of tags?
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davidmead
not that i’ve found
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aaronpk
ah ok then yeah what you said makes sense
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davidmead
it creates links out of them when it finds it in the body/caption
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aaronpk
i was assuming it was like wordpress where posts get a separate list of tags
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davidmead
no. i’m off to grab some lunch. love to chat more this afternoon. feel free to comment on the post @aaronpk :-)
davidmead, wolftune, gavinc, myfreeweb, j12t, tantek, KartikPrabhu and friedcell joined the channel
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tantek
good morning #indiewebcamp!
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davidmead
afternoon @tantek ;-)
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tantek
looks like I set aside 'f' as shortener shortcode character for favorites/likes
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tantek
per tantek.com/w/Whistle#design
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ben_thatmustbeme
good morning
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aaronpk
morning tantek!
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tantek
likes will have a very different presentation / interaction than any of my existing post types thus it makes sense that they get a very explicit different post kind internally.
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ben_thatmustbeme
hmm, need to figure out a way to get my google health data (steps per day) to output some other way than manually
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neuro`
Good morning tantek
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ben_thatmustbeme
that would be cool to have auto added to my site too
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aaronpk
tantek: I discovered why you are seeing a lot of favorites on twitter.com/aaronpk/favorites that are not on my site
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aaronpk
Twitter displays favorites in tweet order, not sorted by date I favorited them
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tantek
I wonder when that changed
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aaronpk
so when I favorited three old tweets from my site, they actually show up way down in my list on twitter
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tantek
that's not as useful, and certainly isn't user-centric (the date order you favorited would be you-centric, which for your profile/favorites makes sense)
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aaronpk
agreed
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aaronpk
I suspect there was some sort of technical reason for doing that
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aaronpk
since favorites don't get their own tweet ID, whereas RTs do
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tantek
strange that they don't store it, since they do transmit it via the API
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gRegor`
Twitter favorites have been like that at least a year
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aaronpk
transmit what?
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aaronpk
I also don't see the date the user favorited a tweet returned in the API
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tantek
the act of favoriting, since Bridgy sees it, then sends it on, and you see it in dated lists e.g. on Adactio's posts, when people faved his POSSE tweet for a post.
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tantek
therefore the information does exist, they are simply not storing it
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aaronpk
bridgy is reading the list of favorites of a tweet from the HTML page
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gRegor`
Yeah, Twitter favorites aren't delivered in the API
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gRegor`
as far as I remember what snarfed has said
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aaronpk
gRegor`: they are, but they are just a list of the tweets, not a list of "favorite" actions
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gRegor`
Ah
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aaronpk
and not available per tweet, only by the user
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gRegor`
Bridgy doesn't include a date in Twitter favorites, so I use the time received. https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/gRegorLove/547211602664378368/88117207
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tantek
how often is Bridgy checking twitter for favorites?
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tantek
in checking adactio's site for faves, I found this
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tantek
https://adactio.com/notes/8030 - using JS to embed a still image from Instagram - that's unnecessary and sad. I wonder if that's a result of using Instagram's OEmbed endpoint (if it has one).
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tantek
re: favorite times - I see minute-level accuracy here: https://adactio.com/notes/6978/
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tantek
thus the time of favoriting is known, even if only via the time when webmention received from Bridgy
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snarfed
KevinMarks_: re android twitter, in case you hadn't already seen it, http://nelsonslog.wordpress.com/2014/12/29/happy-leap-week/
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KevinMarks
I bet it's YYYY vs yyyy rather then %G vs %Y
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KevinMarks
so iOS doesn't bounds check auth dates then?
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tantek
snarfed - great find
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tantek
hilarious
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tantek
that's an abject lesson in *too* featured an API
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tantek
the API being one where both yyyy and YYYY are included when 99.9999% of the time you only want yyyy
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tantek
perfect example of why you should NOT implement more than what is needed by real world use-cases
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KevinMarks
you're going to evangelise dayofyear again?
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tantek
as opposed to what someone put in another standard ISO-8601
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tantek
KevinMarks: that's a different argument, and only applies to me since I don't know anyone else that uses dayofyear
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tantek
I'm talking about API minimalism
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tantek
format minimalism etc.
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aaronpk
wow that is amazing
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KevinMarks
it is one of those hard things - you want datetime stuff abstracted for you, yet abstractions leak
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friedcell
we use iso year & week for data tables in db :)
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friedcell
had this problem last year when we still had no users (shipped in january)
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friedcell
we're partitioning incoming data into weeks and iso weeks are standardized
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tantek
wow that sounds like a horrible idea
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friedcell
why?
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tantek
for the misalignment of years
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tantek
a huge source of infrequent errors, which are the worst
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tantek
if you're looking for week-level partitioning, allow me to suggest you use 5-day weeks, as specified in newcal.org
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friedcell
it doesn't really matter - dates come in in any timezone, get isocalendar() and decide where to look for data
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friedcell
pythons isocalendar() on date objects makes this easy
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tantek
it does matter - the less "obviously" inspectable the data, the more prone it is to bugs
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KevinMarks
it's all incommensurable somewhere. 5-day weeks stutter on leapyears
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tantek
KevinMarks: they do not. the leap day is added at the end
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tantek
as a 6th Sunday
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tantek
the alighnment of January 1st is alwasy maintained
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KevinMarks
can we just adjust the solar system so that the earth, moon and sun's orbits are integer multiples?
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friedcell
we use table inheritance
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tantek
year boundaries are maintained
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friedcell
so you could just get the data from the parent table
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tantek
sounds like even more complexity/fragility
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friedcell
if you number weeks the most common numbering is iso weeks
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friedcell
it's somewhat confusing, but not nearly as confusing as timezones & summer times…
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tantek
iso weeks were a design error and worth ignoring as legac
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tantek
s/legac/legacy
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: iso weeks were a design error and worth ignoring as legacy
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tantek
as the compromise of year alignment was an error
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friedcell
the 5 day week is also kinda confusing
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tantek
it is new, that is expected at first
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friedcell
dates in march and after will be in different weeks depending on year/leap year
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friedcell
not sure that's better in any way
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tantek
no - in newcal, the leap day is at the end of the year
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tantek
thus no it is not true that dates in march and after will be in different weeks depending on year/leap year
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friedcell
tantek: slow net, finally managed to open link. interesting, but was talking about conversion from gregorian to newcal
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KevinMarks
so 5 day weeks even work for 1752?
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tantek
KevinMarks: I have not yet explored proleptic newcal but there is no reason they shouldn't work as well as (or better than) proleptic Gregorian.
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friedcell
not saying iso year/week are practical for every day use, but neither is UTC for everyone - it's just a way of storing data in a way that all buckets are the same and every point translates to a single point in what users use
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tantek.com
edited /like (+2065) "/* Brainstorming */ add mark up a simple favorite of an indieweb post, an indieweb article, collapsed sequential favorites"
(view diff)
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KevinMarks
a good heuristic is round-tripping conversions and then testing a long range of them
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tantek
it's not just a matter of practical or not, it's a matter of how fragile the encoding, how often it results in cognitive dissonance when inspecting data to verify it, which means eventual corruption is far more likely. in that regard (data fidelity longevity) iso weeks are horrible and should be abandoned.
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tantek
aaronpk, others working on "like" posts - I've expanded my design of "like" posts from notification, text only, hypertext, to now sample markup for that hypertext.
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aaronpk
excellent, that is the same markup that I'm using
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aaronpk
i'm using the h-cite one
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tantek
note how the h-cite one simply extends the existing <a class='u-like-of' href> without using a new container for the h-cite
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tantek
which should make it easier for consuming code
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aaronpk
the consuming code doesn't care about the html elements used though
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aaronpk
it will see the "like-of" property as an "h-cite" object instead of a plain string
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friedcell
tantek: since most ppl use gregorian any nongregorian storage will result in cognitive dissonance
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tantek
friedcell - correct. hence I have opted for dayofyear (which is ISO8601 as well, yet properly year aligned) storage as a transition.
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KevinMarks
for some definitions of most (when's the Chinese new year again?)
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tantek
as well as the use of the new concept of bims
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friedcell
KevinMarks: most of my users :)
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tantek
bims are different enough from any Gregorian concepts to minimize dissonance
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friedcell
tantek: was looking at daily tables but that seemed like overkill
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snarfed
wrote up my finished 2015 commitment: https://snarfed.org/indie-checkin-flow
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tantek
friedcell: hence I segment by bim
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aaronpk
snarfed++
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Loqi
snarfed has 67 karma
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friedcell
postgreSQL exports checks in ddl so where each date fits is obvious + I have everything set up so you can just use the root data table for selects and insert which renders anything "inside" that an implementation detail
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aaronpk
snarfed: out of curiosity why don't you have a photo in the IRC logs?
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snarfed
aaronpk: i'm being obnoxious and stubborn and want it to pull from my site's h-card :P
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tantek
same reason as GWG :)
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snarfed
ignore me
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tantek
snarfed - is there an issue filed for that against the IRC log generators in github?
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tantek
please file it if not!
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aaronpk
oh okay :)
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GWG
What did I do?
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aaronpk
plz file an issue and it will probably magically happen
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friedcell
in any case, gotta run.
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aaronpk
that seems like a smallish task for when I need something small to work on
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tantek
GWG - you happened to resist in the same way that snarfed did
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GWG
I'm not being obnoxious and stubborn. I'm procrastinating.
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GWG
That and I hate my hcard
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GWG
And pictures of me
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aaronpk
yay thx
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GWG
It's on my list.
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GWG
Along with fixing other people's icons on my site.
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tantek
GWG - do you have a Twitter icon? You could use that in the interim
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tantek
out of procrastination - why reopen a decision you already made?
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tantek
or rather, why not re-use a decision you already made until you have time to make a better one?
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snarfed
(woo, good irc notif message for native like. glad that worked.)
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aaronpk
except it's wrong, I liked that post, not a post that linked to that
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GWG
I'll give you that.
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snarfed
hmm true
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aaronpk
oh shoot
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aaronpk
i think I see it
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KevinMarks
hm, I suppose I should change my santa hat twitter icon back in deference to the US xmas season being over
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KevinMarks
though in my UK mental model it lasts until 12th night
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KartikPrabhu
KevinMarks In the US it already is Valentine's Day time
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aaronpk
no not until Jan 2
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KevinMarks
hah. that's another day of year bucketing format - US holiday expected
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aaronpk
snarfed: fixed that notification :)
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snarfed
aaronpk++
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Loqi
aaronpk has 641 karma
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aaronpk
omg the url shortener at pin13.net is getting spammed like crazy
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aaronpk
i just made 2 shorturls on it and realized the IDs were separated by like 70 even though I made them within minutes of each other
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aaronpk
it's getting like 10 new requests per minute
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snarfed
spam--
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Loqi
spam has -1 karma
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aaronpk
fixed the spam issue with vegancheese
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tantek.com
edited /like (-19) "/* notification first design */ copy/pasta -"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /like (+79) "/* markup for hypertext design */ styling is left as an exercise for the builder"
(view diff)
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@t
#indieweb "likes": notification design -> text design -> hypertext design -> markup code: http://indiewebcamp.com/like#Brainstorming (ttk.me t4Zt1)
(twitter.com/_/status/549654017421631488)
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aaronpk
aw crap I broke it the other direction
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kylewm
snarfed: you could use http://webvatar.alhur.es/snarfed.org as your profile pic!
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tantek
webvatar is pretty amazing
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tantek
webvatar++
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Loqi
webvatar has 3 karma
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snarfed
kylewm: true!
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tantek
now that I've figured out the presentation / design / markup that I want for "like" posts, the rest is coding it. but first lunch.
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aaronpk
I can't wait to see this :)
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tantek
feedback on http://indiewebcamp.com/like#markup_for_hypertext_design welcome. Especially by folks who currently consume like posts.
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tantek
(note the use of implied p-name for all the h-entrys)
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aaronpk
I'm confused about the "u-like-of h-cite". I thought you couldn't use an h-* on a property unless it was p-*
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tantek
(to keep the markup extra minimal - thus finding a use case for h-entry implied p-name that we never had before)
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aaronpk
it's a parsing level question though, doesn't change the way I consume it
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tantek
aaronpk - as spec'd you can put h-* on any property element
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tantek
specifically: "if that child element itself has a microformat ("h-*" or backcompat roots) and is a property element,"
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tantek
a "property element" being any of the "parse a child element for properties (p-*,u-*,dt-*,e-*)" in the previous step
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tantek
I'll make that slightly more explicit
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aaronpk
okay. the result is the same whether it's "p-like-of h-cite" and "u-like-of h-cite" though right?
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tantek
because u-* and p-* get their *value* differently
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tantek
even though they both get an embedded h-cite
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aaronpk
the php parser returns the same result
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tantek
does it get the URL for the u-like-of or not?
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aaronpk
no, the "like-of" property is the h-cite object
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aaronpk
did you expect it to have two values? one being the h-cite object and the other being the URL?
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tantek
aaronpk - all property elements with embedded microformats have the value and the object
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aaronpk
the value of the h-cite is not the URL
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tantek
but the value of the u-like-of *is* the URL
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aaronpk
I don't understand what you expect the parsed result to look like
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tantek
ah I see what is wrong, this: "value": "Aaron Parecki's \n article \"A Little Twitter Developer History\""
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tantek
should be this: "value": "http:\/\/aaronparecki.com\/..."
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tantek
because I used u-like-of not p-like-of
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aaronpk
also in practice I have found very little use of the "value" property in general, since it usually ends up having unexpected results
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tantek
it is the flat value you can use if you don't care about the nested object
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tantek
the flat property value
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tantek
I see where the confusion came from
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kylewm
mf2py will need to be updated for this too
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aaronpk
okay so the parsers aren't returning the correct value for that?
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tantek
right - I see where the misinterpretation of the spec occured and am fixing
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tantek
(the spec)
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kylewm
huh, does this mean reply-contexts should also be "u-reply-to h-cite"? so that the value is the in-reply-to URL?
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kylewm
s/u-reply-to/u-in-reply-to
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tantek
wow that was subtle find. I knew what I meant when I wrote the spec, and it sounds like every implementer interpreted it consistently among themselves, but differently than what I thought I specd!
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Loqi
kylewm meant to say: huh, does this mean reply-contexts should also be "u-in-reply-to h-cite"? so that the value is the in-reply-to URL?
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tantek
kylewm: that is precisely how I markup my reply-contexts, e.g. view source on http://tantek.com/2014/361/t5/evidence-exploit-apple-support-unable-track
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tantek
<a class="u-in-reply-to h-cite"
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tantek
because they are so minimal
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aaronpk
funny. well as a consumer, I have never used the "value" of those
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tantek
aaronpk - because apparently the "value" was broken!
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tantek
whereas the point was you could / should have been able to!
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aaronpk
that may explain why I never found it useful
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colintedford.com
edited /User:Colintedford.com (+190) "spec 2015-001 commitment"
(view diff)
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tantek
the point is that adding more embedded markup / structuring shouldn't screw up the existing property
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aaronpk
in every consumer I've had to check if a property such as "like-of" is a plain string or a nested object
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aaronpk
if it's a nested object, then I pretty much assume there is a "url" property and find that
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tantek
and if it's a nested object, you should be able to simply get the "value" of that object
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tantek
rather than having to go into the object
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aaronpk
that would be much cleaner
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kylewm
I don't think that is true if the reply context is complex, though right?
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tantek
you should only go into the nested object if you specifically care about *that* nested object
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tantek
aaronpk - exactly! cleaner!
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Loqi
definitely
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tantek
kylewm the goal is to make the simple cases simple to publish *and* consume
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tantek
you're right that a more extensive reply context could be more complicated to both publish and consume
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tantek
but let's at least get the simple cases working simply on both sides
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KartikPrabhu
wait, so is i have <div class="u-in-reply-to h-cite"> lots of stuff <a class="u-url"></a> </div> then the value of the outermost u-in-reply-to should be the u-url of the embedded h-cite?
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KartikPrabhu
this is not going to be easy to implement
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: u-in-reply-to doesn't do anything special on a <div>, see http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing#parsing_a_u-_property
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KartikPrabhu
err yeah I mean
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KartikPrabhu
i meant <a >
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tantek
we must be precise with code
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aaronpk
you wouldn't nest an <a> inside another <a> would you?
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tantek
no you wouldn't
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tantek
broken code examples will lead to bad reasoning
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KartikPrabhu
so i don't get it. what is the use-case for this?
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: for what?
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tantek
this whole conversation started with a use-case
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tantek
so you may be lost
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KartikPrabhu
p-* does not usually have "value" attribute in it, so why add it only when an embedded object exists?
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tantek
because it's only necessary when an embedded object exists
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tantek
to avoid burdening the consumer with having to understand the embedded object
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tantek
(or at least minimize if not avoid)
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kylewm
so my problem is that now aaronpk has to handle three cases "in-reply-to" is a string, an object with a "url" property, or an object with just a "value"
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kylewm
i don't see what this simplifies
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aaronpk
snarfed: okay I *actually* fixed the notification text now :)
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tantek
kylewm the general model is that it simplifies consumers of *any* microformat property to string or object with "value"
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tantek
the object with a "url" property step is something context/meaning/object specific that is being added
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KartikPrabhu
but from the pov of someone parsing replies it is still the 3 options kylewm mentioned. you now have to check 3 things
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kylewm
but I cannot markup my reply context in a way where "value" is meaningful, e.g. https://kylewm.com/2014/12/how-about-kirberos-d-http-colintedford-com-2014-12
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: you have always had to check for those 2 things, on every microformat property
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tantek
that's the point - that's not new
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KartikPrabhu
yes now it is 3
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tantek
no it is 3 on that use of reply-context only
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aaronpk
I guess what I'm struggling with is when I would be able to safely assume the "value" property has something usable
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tantek
aaronpk - the opposite is the struggle
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tantek
you should assume if you get an object where you expected a string, that you should just get the "value" out of that object
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aaronpk
I can't think of an example when that has happened
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tantek
nested h-cards typically
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tantek
e.g. authors
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aaronpk
if I encounter an h-card, I am likely expecting it
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tantek
but if all you want is a string name to show for a p-author
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tantek
you just go get it from the "value"
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tantek
that's the point
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aaronpk
I don't want just a string name for the author
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KartikPrabhu
how does one know if it was written as p-author or u-author?
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: you don't - you shouldn't have to
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tantek
aaronpk - there are plenty of text string only use cases
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tantek
e.g. search
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aaronpk
i'm just saying I have never had that happen to me
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tantek
the point is that *any* property can have a h-x-something embedded on it
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aaronpk
I think what KartikPrabhu is saying is how do you know if the "value" property is something created intentionally by the author or the automatically implied value which may not be what the author expected to appear there
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tantek
so *any* property you are retrieving and expecting a string for, if you don't get a string (i.e. it's an object), you have to go get the "value" from that object
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aaronpk
I have had this same thing happen when trying to use the "name" of h-entrys, where the implied name parsing often generates unexpected and ugly results
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tantek
the "value" property is always intentional by use of the p-* u-* etc. class
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tantek
aaronpk - that sounds like examples of bad h-entrys that need explicit p-name properties
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aaronpk
correct
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aaronpk
the problem is as a consumer I can't tell whether the value was implied or explicit
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tantek
right that's a problem for tools like indiewebfiy.me to help fix
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tantek
aaronpk you shouldn't have to - that's the point
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aaronpk
but in the mean time I do have to
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aaronpk
otherwise I get bad results
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tantek
I didn't think there were any still
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aaronpk
or I have to just completely ignore the "name" property since it may be ugly
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aaronpk
but as a consumer I can't expect that everyone has correctly formatted h-entrys
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tantek
actually yes you're supposed to expect that
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tantek
and if they don't, you send them to http://indiewebify.me/validate-h-entry/
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tantek
it's a simple enough publisher thing to fix / get right that it shouldn't be your problem
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aaronpk
no, if I could expect properly formatted hentrys then I wouldn't need code that checks for things and then tells them to go to indiewebify
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tantek
don't waste time coding around a problem which takes a lot less time to just notify someone they need to use http://indiewebify.me/validate-h-entry/
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aaronpk
what you're saying is I need to code some knowledge of what is a valid h-entry and reject things that don't pass
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tantek
well we're back what are you actual real world needs for "code that checks for things" then
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aaronpk
which means I can't just blindly expect h-entrys I encounter are valid
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tantek
no, you need to document real world examples of things you think are ugly
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tantek
not write code
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aaronpk
I'll show you some, one sec
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tantek
don't show me
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tantek
add it to the wiki somewhere
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tantek
so we can keep track of them
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tantek
and investigate what went wrong
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tantek
patching a symptom is not necessarily the best approach
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kylewm
making me think I need to turn off my logic for detecting auto-generated names
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tantek
kylewm - yes please
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tantek
(though it could be argued I should separate the name explicitly from the published)
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tantek
(still thinking about that)
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kylewm
sorry, what I mean to say is it detects names that are not an explicit title
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aaronpk
okay where should I add these examples?
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kylewm
what is Wall of Shame?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "Wall of Shame" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Wall+of+Shame
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aaronpk
I have two links where an h-entry has an implied name and *no* content property
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tantek
kylewm that's not the most discoverable way to capture something :P
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tantek
we have an /h-entry page - how about starting with a section there?
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tantek
maybe even capture this as an #Issue
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tantek
on that page, with the concrete real world examples that you have
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tantek
but you're talking about a publisher issue, not a consumer issue
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tantek
if you've found links with bad h-entrys that's an h-entry issue
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aaronpk
no I'm talking about as a consumer, what do I do when I counter that
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tantek
consuming them, e.g. for comments, is just one use-case of that
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tantek
aaronpk - no - see above where I said "patching a symptom is not necessarily the best approach"
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tantek
investigating what went wrong is more important
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aaronpk
okay but literally what am I supposed to do
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aaronpk
because my code is going to do something
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tantek
that depends on what we figure out
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tantek
we can't figure that out until we analyze the real world examples which we can't do until you document them
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tantek
is this not an obvious dependency chain?
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aaronpk
the URLs I found actually have mf1 markup
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aaronpk
so now I don't know if it's a problem with trying to return an mf2 result from mf1 or what
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tantek
aaronpk - then that's even more interesting! hence why you need to document them!
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tantek
right - document them so you don't have to be the only one analyzing them
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aaronpk
on h-entry?
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tantek
since h-entrys are what you are having a problem with
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kylewm
snarfed: hey what feed reader do you use with twitter-atom?
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aaronparecki.com
edited /h-entry (+615) "add 3 URLs with badly formatted hEntrys"
(view diff)
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snarfed
kylewm: newsblur
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tantek
aaronpk sounds like perhaps the default wordpress core hentry with broken themes (that lack the rest of the hentry properties) is the source of the problem
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tantek
hmm - perhaps mf1 backcompat parsing should not get any implied properties.
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tantek
(since no mf1 authors ever expect implied properties to happen)
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tantek
s/expect/expected
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: (since no mf1 authors ever expected implied properties to happen)
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aaronpk
aha that would help
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tantek
much better than you having to patch your code!
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kylewm
those themes are broken even in mf1 aren't they? (should have entry-title)
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tantek
kylewm: yes that is what I meant by "broken themes (that lack the rest of the hentry properties) is the source of the problem"
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kylewm
skipping implied properties for backcompat doesn't seem like it fixes the actual problem then. just side steps it
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tantek
kylewm: I disagree - "actual problem" is determined by what's documented.
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kylewm
using mf1 as a heuristic for "probably badly marked up"
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tantek
that's not the heuristic at all (strawman :P )
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tantek
the conclusion is: no mf1 authors ever expected implied properties to happen
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tantek
thus perhaps we should take that into consideration
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aaronpk
is anyone else showing a list of mentions of their posts? http://indiewebcamp.com/mention
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aaronpk
oh that's not the page I meant to link to
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kylewm
tantek: ok I see your point
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aaronpk
is anyone publishing a mentions feed
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tantek
what is a mentions feed?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "mentions feed" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=mentions+feed
#
aaronparecki.com
edited /mention-app (+4) "/* h-feed parsing */ link"
(view diff)
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aaronpk
great now there's a couple examples
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voxpelli
aaronpk: or you want something that's marked up in a way that an app can parse? that's tricky when a site uses my Disqus-like WebMentions
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tantek
aaronpk - sounds good - stub the wiki page with them!
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aaronpk
voxpelli: well presumably they're coming from some service so you could always provide the /mention-app with that URL
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aaronpk
but that isn't what i'm after right now anyway
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voxpelli
aaronpk: yeah, I'm thinking of exposing the mentions as h-entries and perhaps RSS at an endpoint one can point to
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aaronparecki.com
created /mentions_feed (+273) "stub with dfn and some examples"
(view diff)
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voxpelli
and ideally there would be some markup one could add to the original site to enable discovery of that other page – perhaps a simple rel-alternate or something
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tantek
!tell barnabywalters didn't you have a mentions feed somewhere? add yourself: https://indiewebcamp.com/mentions_feed
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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aaronpk
voxpelli: totally. that could be used to send notifications to you. i'm collecting some notes here http://indiewebcamp.com/mention-app
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aaronpk
tantek: I added him already
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tantek
!tell barnabywalters nvm aaronpk added you. And welcome back!
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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aaronpk
tantek: I'm curious about your collapsed in-stream list of likes http://indiewebcamp.com/like##multiple+in-stream
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tantek
aaronpk - what in particular? use-case?
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aaronpk
that will result in a single h-entry with multiple urls?
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tantek
oh I screwed that up didn't I
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aaronpk
I don't know?
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tantek
oops that was not the markup I had in my head
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aaronpk
stops reading
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tantek
lost when typing and didn't see it when reviewing
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tantek.com
edited /like (+62) "/* markup for hypertext design */ fix multiple in-stream sequential like posts markup - was intended to be multiple h-entrys, and use p instead of div"
(view diff)
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tantek
always intended one h-entry per like
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tantek
regardless of presentation design
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aaronpk
ah okay
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tantek
thanks for the catch!
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aaronpk
wasn't sure if you were trying something clever
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tantek
well I was, but not that. ;)
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aaronpk
the only problem I see with the new markup is that the second two entries have a name of just "aaronpk's photo" instead of "likes aaronpk's photo"
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aaronpk
(also there's a space that looks out of place ( 23:45) instead of (23:45)
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tantek
I could use an abbr to make an explicit p-name with "likes" in it
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aaronpk
i guess I don't really care that much because as a consumer I do my own thing as soon as I see it has a like-of property, and pretty much ditch the rest of the properties
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tantek
yeah darn the extra spaces from trying to make markup look easier to read
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aaronpk
but for consumers not looking for "like-of" it would be nice if the name had something that made more sense
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tantek
aaonpk - I figured, however it is still good to provide good p-name fallback for any h-entry
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tantek
precisely
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tantek
fixing
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aaronpk
so the reason I wanted to see what other people do on their /mentions-feed is I am considering making that page entirely third-person text, the only place on my site where third-person text would appear
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tantek.com
edited /like (+143) "/* markup for hypertext design */ use explicit p-name for cleaner result in simple h-entry readers, and abbr for expanded standalone p-names for second and later likes in a sequence"
(view diff)
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tantek
aaronpk updated now with explicit p-name and abbr for explicit "likes " on each h-entry
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tantek
also the space " " time problem should be fixed ;)
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KevinMarks_
Hm, so do the weird likes I get via bridgy and webmention count as examples http://www.kevinmarks.com/highway1demo.html
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tantek
almost - missed one
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tantek.com
edited /like (-3) "/* markup for hypertext design */ fix one last space " " time problem"
(view diff)
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aaronpk
tantek: now that you're doing explicit p-name you don't have the problem of the extra space
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kylewm
snarfed: have a sec to talk about https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/328 ?
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tantek
oh odd
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snarfed
kylewm: sure! in 5m?
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aaronpk
there's no content for the h-entrys now, just a name
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kylewm
snarfed: perfect
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tantek
it is likely that consumers of the h-entry will display the published time separately anyway, thus including it in the p-name would look bad in those consumers
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aaronpk
agreed
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tantek
thus implying a need for explicit p-name
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tantek
in this instance
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tantek
aaronpk - exactly
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tantek
likes have no content :P
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aaronpk
that's a good example of an h-entry that is intended to not have a content property (or value)
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tantek
the p-name is sufficient for anyone doing display to use it anywhere the need to display *something*
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tantek
as previously documented on comment presentation
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aaronpk
KevinMarks_: yes I've seen that problem on other sites from bridgy WMs
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aaronpk
but I thought that problem was actually from the wordpress WM plugin
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voxpelli
I'm pondering how to present a "like" in a mentions feed, aaronpk
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aaronpk
me too
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voxpelli
Because one post can both comment on one post on my site and like another
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KevinMarks_
Voxpelli: that was my issue too
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voxpelli
So the "like" status is in the relation to a specific post rather than in the post itself :P
#
aaronpk
I don't think I've seen any "like" posts that are anything but a like
#
KevinMarks_
Hang on, not that, the faves/retweets on my posts
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kylewm
KevinMarks_: aaronpk: well that's a faithful reproduction of how bridgy presents the like ("X favorited this" and "favorited this" appear separately). so maybe an issue that needs to be fixd in bridgy
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aaronpk
kylewm: maybe the bridgy favorites should drop the content property
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aaronpk
consumers not looking for "like-of" would then just use the "name" which would say "X favorited this"
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voxpelli
KevinMarks_: Yeah, I so need to fix that issue, adding support for likes will get a long way in that
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snarfed
if someone is confident they can get the bridgy markup and content right so that it displays nicely in default comment presentations, ie that don't do anything special for likes etc, i'll *happily* merge a PR
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snarfed
(markup is very much not my thing, so i'm unlikely to do it myself)
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voxpelli
I think it may already be solved, we opened some issues for it long ago: https://github.com/voxpelli/webpage-webmentions/issues/10 (time flies)
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voxpelli
I just need to step it up on my side
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snarfed
voxpelli: ah, i assumed these examples were more recent. if it's better now then great!
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aaronpk
kylewm: snarfed: yeah looking at this again now that tantek wrote up his markup example, i'm pretty sure dropping the "content" would be the correct thing to do
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snarfed
aaronpk: hrm. does that assume consumers detect and handle like-of, etc?
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aaronpk
if you don't look at like-of you'd just see the "name"
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snarfed
ah ok. then sure, sgtm
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voxpelli
aaronpk: any ideas on how to in a mentions feed handle a page mentioning multiple of your pages?
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aaronpk
I was thinking something along the lines of "... commented on a post that linked to _____, _____ and ____"
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voxpelli
Yeah, something like: "Post X liked Z and replied to A, B and C "
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aaronpk
well a post is never going to be a like *and* something else
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voxpelli
are you sure? on Twitter it's pretty usual that someone both likes and retweets somethings
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aaronpk
those are separate posts
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aaronpk
a like might mention another page though, like the bridgy notifications of "X liked a post that linked to Y"
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voxpelli
is it written anywhere in the wiki that a post can only be a single kind of interaction?
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aaronpk
I wasn't making a broad statement like that
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aaronpk
just saying that "like" posts will only be a like, and not a like *plus* some other type
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voxpelli
ok, so just a single type of interaction (+ possibly mentioning/linking to something else), but possibly be such an interaction for many targets
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voxpelli
that makes it a lot easier
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aaronpk
I haven't seen anything else other than that yet. The only thing close is http://indiewebcamp.com/multiple-reply
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colintedford
aaronpk & voxpelli: acegiak publishes posts that are likes and other things at the same time: http://indiewebcamp.com/like#Acegiak
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colintedford
I don't think it's common, though.
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aaronpk
the first link there seems to have dropped the "like-of" property
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aaronpk
now it's just an empty h-entry
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colintedford
Hm, maybe they got talked out of it since then or have site issues.
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voxpelli
I think one could represent a like, reply + reshare as that as just a reshare with a comment
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kylewm
yeah I noticed that too; most of acegiak's posts were "liked and reposted" but now just "reposted"
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voxpelli
But it poses the question what interaction to pick if multiple are available. Or one can just do what tantek suggested earlier I guess – and point out that they should fix it.
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@robotbrook
IndieAuth Documentation - Sign in with your domain name https://indieauth.com/setup
(twitter.com/_/status/549693863938367488)
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aaronpk
benwerd: I've got a funny problem if you have a minute
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Loqi
benwerd: tantek left you a message on 12/21 at 8:31pm: would be great to see a brief blog post / transcript of your explanation of indieweb vs federated wiki as tweeted in https://twitter.com/mshook/status/546883742015299584
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aaronpk
I don't know how the routing thingy works in Known, but for some reason that get() function is running even when I make a POST request
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benwerd
aaronpk: oh, that is odd
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benwerd
it shouldn't be
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benwerd
unless
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benwerd
hold on
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benwerd
goes to check
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benwerd
(I'm wondering if something is causing a redirect, eg on the HTTPS check)
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benwerd
But it doesn't look like it
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benwerd
Is this on a local installation / somewhere else?
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aaronpk
I don't think so, I was just seeing a plain http response with the contents of the get method
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aaronpk
somewhere else, was working with anomalily on setting it up on her site
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aaronpk
brand new install
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aaronpk
I installed it on a subdomain of mine and it worked fine
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benwerd
weird.
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benwerd
could it be that there's a proxy on her server?
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aaronpk
very. i was completely stumped.
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aaronpk
doubtful, it's a relatively simple shared hosting provider
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benwerd
wondering if they have a freaky mod_rewrite implementation or ...
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benwerd
grasps at straws
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aaronpk
I got as far as identifying what was happening, but didn't know enough about Known to track down the problem further
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aaronpk
any idea why that POST would fail but other POSTs work?
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