#indiewebcamp 2014-12-29

2014-12-29 UTC
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KartikPrabhu snarfed++ for replacing Twitter use!
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Loqi snarfed has 66 karma
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tantek.com edited /HTTPS (+74) "emphasize *today* for obtain, don't need any vapor here diluting the effectiveness/actionability of this section. move Let's Encrypt to possible future" (view diff)
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GWG tantek: I like the vision of it
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tantek GWG: talk is cheap. shipping is what counts
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tantek I'm not a hug fan of announcements >6 months before supposed ship dates.
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tantek s/hug/huge
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Loqi tantek meant to say: I'm not a huge fan of announcements >6 months before supposed ship dates.
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asdofindia If there are href="" links on a page, it'll refer to the current URL from inside the browser. But it's not good, right?
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KevinMarks_ Twitter for Android app has logged out all android users. Yay.
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KevinMarks_ reads history
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KevinMarks_ !tell Tantek Facebook's present continuous "likes" is coherent, but also serves them as they like to imply that liking a brand is ongoing permission for it to post to your feed
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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KevinMarks_ !tell ben_thatmust I have an Android notify app built for twitter that I'd like to add webmention support to - let's collaborate
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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KevinMarks_ Asdofindia: it's not terrible. If you want to force a refresh use hrefj"
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KevinMarks_ S/hrefj/href="#/
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asdofindia no i was just reading http://tantek.com/log/2002/11.html#L20021128t1352 . my link actually is a permalink link :P
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GWG KevinMarks_: Can I ask about this Android thing?
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KevinMarks_ Twitter android client has logged us all out, and fails when we try to log in again
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GWG KevinMarks_: I meant... I have an Android notify app built for twitter that I'd like to add webmention support to - let's collaborate
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GWG I was curious about what the Android notify webmention thing
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@kevinmarks The @android twitter client just gives us this login then fails when we use it. Good job I have #indieweb ... https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/549415843889549312/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/549415843889549312)
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KevinMarks_ Ah, I have an app called flowpast that turns selected tweets into android notifications
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KevinMarks_ I need to update it for lollipop and would love to add webmention support
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KevinMarks_ It's a polling app though
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GWG KevinMarks_: You've inspired me to update the wiki
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ben_thatmust KevinMarks_: that would be great. I was just going to try to see what I can do with phonegap though, i don't know what it supports/doesn't support
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david.shanske.com edited /mention-app (+256) "/* Interim Solution */" (view diff)
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ben_thatmust obviously indie-auth will have to be all done on its own as there isn't a URL to redirect to
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ben_thatmust I just got a Moto360 as a gift too, so i would love to add android wear support
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KevinMarks_ https://github.com/kevinmarks/nanotweeter
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KevinMarks_ You get wear support for notifications by default
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KevinMarks_ Though the actions happen on the phone
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GWG I got an LG G Watch refurbbed cheap. But I still don't like it as much as the Pebble
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@Nithin RT @kevinmarks: The @android twitter client just gives us this login then fails when we use it. Good job I have #indieweb ... http://t.co/… (twitter.com/_/status/549417347513995264)
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ben_thatmust it would be great to have "blacklist"/"Spam" from the watch
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ben_thatmust anyway, off to bed for me
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ben_thatmust I'll dig in to it KevinMarks_ I may be looking at starting from scratch with phonegap first, hopefully get it working on lots of other platforms too
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KevinMarks_ About time I hacked on that again
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@kevinmarks @joestump @buster thing is, your experience would be like all android twitter users at the moment, because silos fail at scale #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/549432093647073282)
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@kevinmarks @PJVogt @atduskgreg @hotdogsladies this is the difference between a silo and a cloud service: see http://indiewebcamp.com/silo (twitter.com/_/status/549433614899740673)
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@Fullantho RT @kevinmarks: The @android twitter client just gives us this login then fails when we use it. Good job I have #indieweb ... http://t.co/… (twitter.com/_/status/549437129038643202)
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@kevinmarks @hotdogsladies you can hear it on the web here because html5 beats rsshttp:// http://feed.unmung.com/feed?feed=http%3A%2F%2Ffeeds.gimletmedia.com%2Fhearreplyall #indieweb @GlennF @PJVogt (twitter.com/_/status/549439308612915201)
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KevinMarks_ Tonight in silo bashing
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tantek heh
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Loqi tantek: KevinMarks_ left you a message 1 hour, 55 minutes ago: Facebook's present continuous "likes" is coherent, but also serves them as they like to imply that liking a brand is ongoing permission for it to post to your feed
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KevinMarks_ Extra fun as I have no twitter client on my phone
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tantek that actually makes sense as "liking a brand" is essentially a proxy for "following a brand"
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tantek and thus having their posts show up in your "reader" view (AKA news feed) makes sense
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KevinMarks_ The equivalent for favourite might be "Kevin favors your post"
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tantek that's interesting as "favors" implies relative to something else
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KevinMarks_ Right, but it is not a superlative like favourite
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tantek Right, Flickr diluted the meaning of "favorite". Or perhaps IE did.
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tantek favorite in common parlance implies above other choices
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KevinMarks_ Well, in flickr it is primarily a plural - your favourite photos
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tantek it's odd that "favorite" became a toggle, as it's "normal" meaning is favorite among a set
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tantek e.g. favorite color, favorite ice cream etc.
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KevinMarks_ Which is clearer than "your most liked photos"
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tantek and you're supposed to have *one*
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tantek of that set
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KevinMarks_ Hm, you can say "one of my favourite x"
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tantek again, that's a dilution
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tantek in common terms, you have *a* favorite color, *a* favorite movie, etc.
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tantek *a* favorite book, etc.
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KevinMarks_ Check out @kevinmarks's Tweet: https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/548893717151494145?s=09
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@kevinmarks @om this reminds of one of my favourite Chesterton essays http://www.pagebypagebooks.com/Gilbert_K_Chesterton/Heretics/On_Certain_Modern_Writers_and_the_Institution_of_the_Family_p1.html (twitter.com/_/status/548893717151494145)
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tantek lol
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KevinMarks_ There I'm implying I have lots of Chesterton essays I enjoy
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tantek then there's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Favourite
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KevinMarks_ Which is a little arch of me
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KevinMarks_ Hence "playing favourites"
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tantek right
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KevinMarks_ So it is a bit tricky to favourite a person
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KevinMarks_ Favourite is a better noun than like, like is a better verb
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tantek yet iOS has "favorites" in Facetime
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tantek which is essentially favoriting a person
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tantek they might as well have called the feature "Besties"
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tantek or "BFFs"
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KevinMarks_ Jibot had a "favor" verb that only jeanniecool could use
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KevinMarks_ To make people her favourites in that sense
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tantek wow how did you find that post asdofindia! That's an old one!
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asdofindia tantek, i was following http://microformats.org/wiki/posh
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KevinMarks_ https://github.com/termie/jibot/commit/15cdb36bf43a4670f89e8325051606e76e0cb46d
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tantek alright I'm going back to actual useful design iterations - not sure this favorite semantics tangent has any indieweb relevance
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KevinMarks_ Thinking about the text is interesting
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tantek only if you're doing it towards building something
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KevinMarks_ Fair. Android changed a star in contacts to the word "favourites" in the latest version
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tantek copying iOS
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tantek it (favorite people) is a dumb patch of a bad UI anyway (contacts). the right answer is to go straight to people-centric comms as blogged. citation in /comms
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tantek no need for a contacts app when you can arrange your contacts by their faces in home screen pages and folders
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tantek all the mobile "contacts" default app UIs are badly polished 1990s turds
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tantek even Apple's "Contacts" just looks like bad Lotus Notes or PalmOS from back in the day
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snarfed KevinMarks: just fyi, the twitter app on my phone is working fine. it hasn't logged me out
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snarfed maybe i misunderstood you?
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kylewm more lovely UX from android twitter app... it's asking me "Authorize SNS to use your account?"
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kylewm what is SNS?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "SNS" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=SNS
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KevinMarks__ Interesting snarfed. It happened to a lot of people - apparently they have servers with clocks set to 2015 breaking auth
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snarfed KevinMarks__: wow. you think they have production servers with *three days* worth of clock skew? hard to believe
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tantek that's pretty sad/funny
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tantek uncoupling a bunch of design decisions
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KevinMarks__ It's a whole year off
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KevinMarks__ http://pbs.twimg.com/media/B5_Axn6CQAAx0Om.jpg
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tantek.com edited /like (+2324) "/* Brainstorming */ notification first design, text only design, iterate hypertext design" (view diff)
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tantek now to markup the hypertext designs
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tantek.com edited /like (+58) "/* Brainstorming */ next step: markup for hypertext design" (view diff)
KartikPrabhu, musigny, eburcat, daf, mlncn-agaric, tantek, kerosene_, friedcell, KartikPrabhu1, eschnou, danlyke, michielbdejong, prtksxna and petermolnar joined the channel
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@mapkyca Ran a successful first full test of my Flickr to @withknown photo and video import tool (https://github.com/mapkyca/KnownFlickrImport) overnight! #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/549498487461937152)
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GWG Morning all
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hugoroyd hey mapkyca
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hugoroyd so, i'm now on the extra-info branch
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hugoroyd which just had Pages/Callback.php | 2 +-
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hugoroyd mapkyca: it works this time
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mapkyca ahh... didn't check this window - glad it's working for you now! (new flickr plugin just captures the nsid from the api, so it's a small change)
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mapkyca updated the importer to catch the error - basically it wasn't handling the old style syndication structure very well.
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mapkyca Thanks for the help!
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hugoroyd thanks for the plugin
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hugoroyd i also fixed the video typo :)
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hugoroyd btw: https://github.com/idno/idno/issues/658
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hugoroyd if you like fixing bugs, this one is quite annoying :)
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mapkyca I can see that! I'm sure this is'll be on the todo list somewhere, but the fix may be a migration script... essentially a find and replace on the database. :/
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hugoroyd mapkyca: yeah that's what i thought :-)
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hugoroyd do you know how to use mongo a little bit?
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mapkyca A very little (although I'm on mongo myself), my thoughts is that this could be done at the object level (see comments on the bug)
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hugoroyd mapkyca: this could be a test for the export functionality of known ;-)
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mapkyca @hugoroyd true, that'd be one approach. For that matter, a find and replace on a JSON dump might be somewhat easier to accomplish...
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hugoroyd mapkyca: yeah i'm trying to figure out how to get to edit that dump ^^
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hugoroyd i only get "bson"
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mapkyca hmm... I get a zip with plain text json... admittedly in separate files. Might need some script-fu...
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ben_thatmustbeme hmm realized i should just have a feed of recent webmentions, then IFTTT can notify me of changes
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ben_thatmustbeme its polling, but its better than nothing
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aaronpk ben_thatmustbeme: yeah! that's the idea behind /mention-app
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aaronpk and then one step better than polling using PuSH to notify consumers that the feed has been updated
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ben_thatmustbeme yeah, thats what i'd like to do
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ben_thatmustbeme it looks like phonegap can do all the things needed
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aaronpk yeah probably
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snarfed great new project from brett slatkin: http://www.onebigfluke.com/2014/12/find-twitter-contacts-personal-rss-feeds.html
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aaronpk nice
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aaronpk wow "Found 735 friends with URLs"
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snarfed your dl will take a while :P
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ben_thatmustbeme oh cool
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Loqi [mention] David Mead commented 'One person's title, is anothers caption. Moving content between silos #indieweb 2 min read I...' on a post that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (http://blog.davidjohnmead.com/2014/one-persons-title-is-anothers-caption-moving-content-between-silos)
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Loqi [mention] David Mead commented 'One person's title, is anothers caption. Moving content between silos #indieweb 2 min read I...' on a post that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/pesos (http://blog.davidjohnmead.com/2014/one-persons-title-is-anothers-caption-moving-content-between-silos)
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@davidmead One person's title, is anothers caption. Moving content between silos... http://blog.davidjohnmead.com/2014/one-persons-title-is-anothers-caption-moving-content-between-silos #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/549602472298577920)
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aaronpk ok yeah definitely that is the next clustering of notifications
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aaronpk when a single post sends webmentions to multiple pages on the domain
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davidmead hmm. didn’t know i’d “spam” the room with my post :-/
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aaronpk it's fine :)
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neuro` Good morning.
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aaronpk davidmead: interesting. ownyourgram sends your instagram caption as the "content" field which is meant to be the body of the post, not the title
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aaronpk so it must be Known deciding to save it in the title instead
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aaronpk ownyourgram also sends a "category" field with the hashtags in your photos, so Known could be looking for that as well
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aaronpk yep looks like Known says "if there is no name provided, then use the content as the name and don't store content" https://github.com/idno/IndiePub/blob/master/Pages/MicroPub/Endpoint.php#L50
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davidmead good to know. maybe I can bring that up to @benwerd, or post it as an isuue on github
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davidmead could the #hashtag be parsed to the “content” and leave the rest in the “title”?
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aaronpk sure, but that may not always make sense for everyone
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davidmead true
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aaronpk for example I have several friends who type really long captions on instagram, way too long for a title
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aaronpk in that case it may make more sense to use the hashtags as the title and the caption as the content
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davidmead i’m trying to think ahead. the hashtags can be clicked when in the content of a Known post to show just those posts. this setup at the moment destroys this
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davidmead think that’d be useful for everyone
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aaronpk does Known not have a separate list of tags?
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davidmead not that i’ve found
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aaronpk ah ok then yeah what you said makes sense
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davidmead it creates links out of them when it finds it in the body/caption
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aaronpk i was assuming it was like wordpress where posts get a separate list of tags
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davidmead no. i’m off to grab some lunch. love to chat more this afternoon. feel free to comment on the post @aaronpk :-)
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tantek good morning #indiewebcamp!
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davidmead afternoon @tantek ;-)
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tantek looks like I set aside 'f' as shortener shortcode character for favorites/likes
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tantek per tantek.com/w/Whistle#design
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ben_thatmustbeme good morning
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aaronpk morning tantek!
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tantek likes will have a very different presentation / interaction than any of my existing post types thus it makes sense that they get a very explicit different post kind internally.
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ben_thatmustbeme hmm, need to figure out a way to get my google health data (steps per day) to output some other way than manually
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neuro` Good morning tantek
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ben_thatmustbeme that would be cool to have auto added to my site too
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aaronpk tantek: I discovered why you are seeing a lot of favorites on twitter.com/aaronpk/favorites that are not on my site
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tantek oh?
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aaronpk Twitter displays favorites in tweet order, not sorted by date I favorited them
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tantek I wonder when that changed
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aaronpk so when I favorited three old tweets from my site, they actually show up way down in my list on twitter
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tantek that's not as useful, and certainly isn't user-centric (the date order you favorited would be you-centric, which for your profile/favorites makes sense)
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aaronpk agreed
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tantek something for /Twitter#Issues
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aaronpk I suspect there was some sort of technical reason for doing that
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aaronpk since favorites don't get their own tweet ID, whereas RTs do
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tantek strange that they don't store it, since they do transmit it via the API
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gRegor` Twitter favorites have been like that at least a year
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aaronpk transmit what?
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aaronpk I also don't see the date the user favorited a tweet returned in the API
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tantek the act of favoriting, since Bridgy sees it, then sends it on, and you see it in dated lists e.g. on Adactio's posts, when people faved his POSSE tweet for a post.
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tantek therefore the information does exist, they are simply not storing it
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aaronpk bridgy is reading the list of favorites of a tweet from the HTML page
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gRegor` Yeah, Twitter favorites aren't delivered in the API
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gRegor` as far as I remember what snarfed has said
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aaronpk gRegor`: they are, but they are just a list of the tweets, not a list of "favorite" actions
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aaronpk https://dev.twitter.com/rest/reference/get/favorites/list
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gRegor` Ah
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aaronpk and not available per tweet, only by the user
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gRegor` Bridgy doesn't include a date in Twitter favorites, so I use the time received. https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/gRegorLove/547211602664378368/88117207
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tantek how often is Bridgy checking twitter for favorites?
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tantek in checking adactio's site for faves, I found this
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tantek https://adactio.com/notes/8030 - using JS to embed a still image from Instagram - that's unnecessary and sad. I wonder if that's a result of using Instagram's OEmbed endpoint (if it has one).
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tantek re: favorite times - I see minute-level accuracy here: https://adactio.com/notes/6978/
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tantek thus the time of favoriting is known, even if only via the time when webmention received from Bridgy
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snarfed KevinMarks_: re android twitter, in case you hadn't already seen it, http://nelsonslog.wordpress.com/2014/12/29/happy-leap-week/
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KevinMarks I bet it's YYYY vs yyyy rather then %G vs %Y
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KevinMarks ouch
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KevinMarks so iOS doesn't bounds check auth dates then?
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tantek snarfed - great find
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tantek hilarious
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tantek that's an abject lesson in *too* featured an API
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tantek the API being one where both yyyy and YYYY are included when 99.9999% of the time you only want yyyy
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tantek perfect example of why you should NOT implement more than what is needed by real world use-cases
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KevinMarks you're going to evangelise dayofyear again?
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tantek as opposed to what someone put in another standard ISO-8601
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tantek KevinMarks: that's a different argument, and only applies to me since I don't know anyone else that uses dayofyear
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tantek I'm talking about API minimalism
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tantek format minimalism etc.
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aaronpk wow that is amazing
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KevinMarks it is one of those hard things - you want datetime stuff abstracted for you, yet abstractions leak
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friedcell we use iso year & week for data tables in db :)
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friedcell had this problem last year when we still had no users (shipped in january)
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friedcell we're partitioning incoming data into weeks and iso weeks are standardized
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tantek wow that sounds like a horrible idea
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friedcell why?
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tantek for the misalignment of years
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tantek a huge source of infrequent errors, which are the worst
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tantek if you're looking for week-level partitioning, allow me to suggest you use 5-day weeks, as specified in newcal.org
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friedcell it doesn't really matter - dates come in in any timezone, get isocalendar() and decide where to look for data
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friedcell pythons isocalendar() on date objects makes this easy
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tantek it does matter - the less "obviously" inspectable the data, the more prone it is to bugs
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KevinMarks it's all incommensurable somewhere. 5-day weeks stutter on leapyears
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tantek KevinMarks: they do not. the leap day is added at the end
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tantek as a 6th Sunday
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tantek the alighnment of January 1st is alwasy maintained
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KevinMarks can we just adjust the solar system so that the earth, moon and sun's orbits are integer multiples?
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friedcell we use table inheritance
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tantek year boundaries are maintained
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friedcell so you could just get the data from the parent table
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tantek sounds like even more complexity/fragility
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friedcell if you number weeks the most common numbering is iso weeks
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friedcell it's somewhat confusing, but not nearly as confusing as timezones & summer times…
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tantek iso weeks were a design error and worth ignoring as legac
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tantek s/legac/legacy
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Loqi tantek meant to say: iso weeks were a design error and worth ignoring as legacy
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tantek as the compromise of year alignment was an error
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friedcell the 5 day week is also kinda confusing
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tantek it is new, that is expected at first
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friedcell dates in march and after will be in different weeks depending on year/leap year
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friedcell not sure that's better in any way
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tantek no - in newcal, the leap day is at the end of the year
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tantek thus no it is not true that dates in march and after will be in different weeks depending on year/leap year
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friedcell tantek: slow net, finally managed to open link. interesting, but was talking about conversion from gregorian to newcal
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KevinMarks so 5 day weeks even work for 1752?
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tantek KevinMarks: I have not yet explored proleptic newcal but there is no reason they shouldn't work as well as (or better than) proleptic Gregorian.
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friedcell not saying iso year/week are practical for every day use, but neither is UTC for everyone - it's just a way of storing data in a way that all buckets are the same and every point translates to a single point in what users use
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tantek.com edited /like (+2065) "/* Brainstorming */ add mark up a simple favorite of an indieweb post, an indieweb article, collapsed sequential favorites" (view diff)
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KevinMarks a good heuristic is round-tripping conversions and then testing a long range of them
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tantek it's not just a matter of practical or not, it's a matter of how fragile the encoding, how often it results in cognitive dissonance when inspecting data to verify it, which means eventual corruption is far more likely. in that regard (data fidelity longevity) iso weeks are horrible and should be abandoned.
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KevinMarks http://www.zeldman.com/2014/12/27/designer-blindness/ seems related somehow
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tantek aaronpk, others working on "like" posts - I've expanded my design of "like" posts from notification, text only, hypertext, to now sample markup for that hypertext.
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tantek for your consideration: http://indiewebcamp.com/like#markup_for_hypertext_design
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aaronpk excellent, that is the same markup that I'm using
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aaronpk i'm using the h-cite one
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tantek note how the h-cite one simply extends the existing <a class='u-like-of' href> without using a new container for the h-cite
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tantek which should make it easier for consuming code
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aaronpk the consuming code doesn't care about the html elements used though
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aaronpk it will see the "like-of" property as an "h-cite" object instead of a plain string
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friedcell tantek: since most ppl use gregorian any nongregorian storage will result in cognitive dissonance
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tantek friedcell - correct. hence I have opted for dayofyear (which is ISO8601 as well, yet properly year aligned) storage as a transition.
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KevinMarks for some definitions of most (when's the Chinese new year again?)
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tantek as well as the use of the new concept of bims
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friedcell KevinMarks: most of my users :)
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aaronpk e.g. http://pin13.net/1p8i vs http://pin13.net/1p8v
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tantek bims are different enough from any Gregorian concepts to minimize dissonance
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friedcell tantek: was looking at daily tables but that seemed like overkill
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snarfed wrote up my finished 2015 commitment: https://snarfed.org/indie-checkin-flow
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tantek friedcell: hence I segment by bim
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aaronpk snarfed++
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Loqi snarfed has 67 karma
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friedcell postgreSQL exports checks in ddl so where each date fits is obvious + I have everything set up so you can just use the root data table for selects and insert which renders anything "inside" that an implementation detail
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aaronpk snarfed: out of curiosity why don't you have a photo in the IRC logs?
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snarfed aaronpk: i'm being obnoxious and stubborn and want it to pull from my site's h-card :P
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tantek same reason as GWG :)
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snarfed ignore me
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tantek snarfed - is there an issue filed for that against the IRC log generators in github?
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tantek please file it if not!
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aaronpk oh okay :)
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GWG What did I do?
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aaronpk plz file an issue and it will probably magically happen
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friedcell in any case, gotta run.
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aaronpk that seems like a smallish task for when I need something small to work on
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tantek GWG - you happened to resist in the same way that snarfed did
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GWG I'm not being obnoxious and stubborn. I'm procrastinating.
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GWG That and I hate my hcard
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GWG And pictures of me
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snarfed filed
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aaronpk yay thx
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Loqi :D
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aaronpk https://github.com/aaronpk/indiewebcamp-irc-logs/issues/11 <- for future findability
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Loqi [mention] Aaron Parecki liked a post that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-12-29/line/1419879432101 (https://aaronparecki.com/likes/2014/12/29/1/)
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GWG It's on my list.
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GWG Along with fixing other people's icons on my site.
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tantek GWG - do you have a Twitter icon? You could use that in the interim
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tantek out of procrastination - why reopen a decision you already made?
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tantek or rather, why not re-use a decision you already made until you have time to make a better one?
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snarfed (woo, good irc notif message for native like. glad that worked.)
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aaronpk yeah!
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aaronpk except it's wrong, I liked that post, not a post that linked to that
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GWG I'll give you that.
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snarfed hmm true
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aaronpk oh shoot
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aaronpk i think I see it
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KevinMarks hm, I suppose I should change my santa hat twitter icon back in deference to the US xmas season being over
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KevinMarks though in my UK mental model it lasts until 12th night
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks In the US it already is Valentine's Day time
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aaronpk no not until Jan 2
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KevinMarks hah. that's another day of year bucketing format - US holiday expected
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aaronpk snarfed: fixed that notification :)
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snarfed aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 641 karma
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aaronpk omg the url shortener at pin13.net is getting spammed like crazy
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aaronpk i just made 2 shorturls on it and realized the IDs were separated by like 70 even though I made them within minutes of each other
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aaronpk it's getting like 10 new requests per minute
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snarfed spam--
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Loqi spam has -1 karma
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aaronpk fixed the spam issue with vegancheese
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tantek.com edited /like (-19) "/* notification first design */ copy/pasta -" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /like (+79) "/* markup for hypertext design */ styling is left as an exercise for the builder" (view diff)
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@t #indieweb "likes": notification design -> text design -> hypertext design -> markup code: http://indiewebcamp.com/like#Brainstorming (ttk.me t4Zt1) (twitter.com/_/status/549654017421631488)
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Loqi [bridgy] Aral Balkan favorited a tweet http://indiewebcamp.com/like#Brainstorming (https://twitter.com/t/status/549654017421631488)
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aaronpk aw crap I broke it the other direction
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kylewm snarfed: you could use http://webvatar.alhur.es/snarfed.org as your profile pic!
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tantek webvatar is pretty amazing
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tantek webvatar++
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Loqi webvatar has 3 karma
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snarfed kylewm: true!
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tantek now that I've figured out the presentation / design / markup that I want for "like" posts, the rest is coding it. but first lunch.
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aaronpk I can't wait to see this :)
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tantek feedback on http://indiewebcamp.com/like#markup_for_hypertext_design welcome. Especially by folks who currently consume like posts.
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tantek (note the use of implied p-name for all the h-entrys)
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aaronpk I'm confused about the "u-like-of h-cite". I thought you couldn't use an h-* on a property unless it was p-*
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tantek (to keep the markup extra minimal - thus finding a use case for h-entry implied p-name that we never had before)
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aaronpk it's a parsing level question though, doesn't change the way I consume it
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tantek aaronpk - as spec'd you can put h-* on any property element
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tantek see http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing#parse_an_element_for_class_microformats
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tantek specifically: "if that child element itself has a microformat ("h-*" or backcompat roots) and is a property element,"
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tantek a "property element" being any of the "parse a child element for properties (p-*,u-*,dt-*,e-*)" in the previous step
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tantek I'll make that slightly more explicit
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aaronpk okay. the result is the same whether it's "p-like-of h-cite" and "u-like-of h-cite" though right?
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tantek no
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tantek because u-* and p-* get their *value* differently
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tantek even though they both get an embedded h-cite
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aaronpk the php parser returns the same result
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tantek does it get the URL for the u-like-of or not?
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aaronpk no, the "like-of" property is the h-cite object
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aaronpk did you expect it to have two values? one being the h-cite object and the other being the URL?
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tantek aaronpk - all property elements with embedded microformats have the value and the object
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aaronpk the value of the h-cite is not the URL
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aaronpk http://pin13.net/1p8i
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tantek but the value of the u-like-of *is* the URL
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aaronpk I don't understand what you expect the parsed result to look like
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tantek ah I see what is wrong, this: "value": "Aaron Parecki's \n article \"A Little Twitter Developer History\""
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tantek should be this: "value": "http:\/\/aaronparecki.com\/..."
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tantek because I used u-like-of not p-like-of
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aaronpk also in practice I have found very little use of the "value" property in general, since it usually ends up having unexpected results
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tantek it is the flat value you can use if you don't care about the nested object
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tantek the flat property value
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tantek I see where the confusion came from
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kylewm mf2py will need to be updated for this too
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aaronpk okay so the parsers aren't returning the correct value for that?
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tantek right - I see where the misinterpretation of the spec occured and am fixing
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tantek (the spec)
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aaronpk okay
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tantek updated http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing#parse_an_element_for_class_microformats
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kylewm huh, does this mean reply-contexts should also be "u-reply-to h-cite"? so that the value is the in-reply-to URL?
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kylewm s/u-reply-to/u-in-reply-to
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tantek wow that was subtle find. I knew what I meant when I wrote the spec, and it sounds like every implementer interpreted it consistently among themselves, but differently than what I thought I specd!
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Loqi kylewm meant to say: huh, does this mean reply-contexts should also be "u-in-reply-to h-cite"? so that the value is the in-reply-to URL?
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tantek kylewm: that is precisely how I markup my reply-contexts, e.g. view source on http://tantek.com/2014/361/t5/evidence-exploit-apple-support-unable-track
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tantek <a class="u-in-reply-to h-cite"
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tantek because they are so minimal
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aaronpk funny. well as a consumer, I have never used the "value" of those
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tantek aaronpk - because apparently the "value" was broken!
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tantek whereas the point was you could / should have been able to!
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aaronpk that may explain why I never found it useful
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colintedford.com edited /User:Colintedford.com (+190) "spec 2015-001 commitment" (view diff)
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tantek the point is that adding more embedded markup / structuring shouldn't screw up the existing property
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aaronpk in every consumer I've had to check if a property such as "like-of" is a plain string or a nested object
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aaronpk if it's a nested object, then I pretty much assume there is a "url" property and find that
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tantek and if it's a nested object, you should be able to simply get the "value" of that object
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tantek rather than having to go into the object
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aaronpk that would be much cleaner
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kylewm I don't think that is true if the reply context is complex, though right?
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tantek you should only go into the nested object if you specifically care about *that* nested object
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tantek aaronpk - exactly! cleaner!
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Loqi definitely
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tantek kylewm the goal is to make the simple cases simple to publish *and* consume
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tantek you're right that a more extensive reply context could be more complicated to both publish and consume
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tantek but let's at least get the simple cases working simply on both sides
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KartikPrabhu wait, so is i have <div class="u-in-reply-to h-cite"> lots of stuff <a class="u-url"></a> </div> then the value of the outermost u-in-reply-to should be the u-url of the embedded h-cite?
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KartikPrabhu this is not going to be easy to implement
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tantek KartikPrabhu: u-in-reply-to doesn't do anything special on a <div>, see http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing#parsing_a_u-_property
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KartikPrabhu err yeah I mean
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KartikPrabhu i meant <a >
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tantek we must be precise with code
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aaronpk you wouldn't nest an <a> inside another <a> would you?
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tantek no you wouldn't
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tantek broken code examples will lead to bad reasoning
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KartikPrabhu so i don't get it. what is the use-case for this?
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tantek KartikPrabhu: for what?
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tantek this whole conversation started with a use-case
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tantek so you may be lost
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KartikPrabhu p-* does not usually have "value" attribute in it, so why add it only when an embedded object exists?
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tantek because it's only necessary when an embedded object exists
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tantek to avoid burdening the consumer with having to understand the embedded object
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tantek (or at least minimize if not avoid)
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kylewm so my problem is that now aaronpk has to handle three cases "in-reply-to" is a string, an object with a "url" property, or an object with just a "value"
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kylewm i don't see what this simplifies
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aaronpk snarfed: okay I *actually* fixed the notification text now :)
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tantek kylewm the general model is that it simplifies consumers of *any* microformat property to string or object with "value"
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snarfed lol
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tantek the object with a "url" property step is something context/meaning/object specific that is being added
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KartikPrabhu but from the pov of someone parsing replies it is still the 3 options kylewm mentioned. you now have to check 3 things
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kylewm but I cannot markup my reply context in a way where "value" is meaningful, e.g. https://kylewm.com/2014/12/how-about-kirberos-d-http-colintedford-com-2014-12
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tantek KartikPrabhu: you have always had to check for those 2 things, on every microformat property
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tantek that's the point - that's not new
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KartikPrabhu yes now it is 3
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tantek no it is 3 on that use of reply-context only
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aaronpk I guess what I'm struggling with is when I would be able to safely assume the "value" property has something usable
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tantek aaronpk - the opposite is the struggle
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tantek you should assume if you get an object where you expected a string, that you should just get the "value" out of that object
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aaronpk I can't think of an example when that has happened
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tantek nested h-cards typically
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tantek e.g. authors
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aaronpk if I encounter an h-card, I am likely expecting it
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tantek but if all you want is a string name to show for a p-author
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tantek you just go get it from the "value"
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tantek that's the point
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aaronpk I don't want just a string name for the author
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KartikPrabhu how does one know if it was written as p-author or u-author?
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tantek KartikPrabhu: you don't - you shouldn't have to
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tantek aaronpk - there are plenty of text string only use cases
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tantek e.g. search
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aaronpk i'm just saying I have never had that happen to me
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tantek the point is that *any* property can have a h-x-something embedded on it
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aaronpk I think what KartikPrabhu is saying is how do you know if the "value" property is something created intentionally by the author or the automatically implied value which may not be what the author expected to appear there
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tantek so *any* property you are retrieving and expecting a string for, if you don't get a string (i.e. it's an object), you have to go get the "value" from that object
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aaronpk I have had this same thing happen when trying to use the "name" of h-entrys, where the implied name parsing often generates unexpected and ugly results
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tantek the "value" property is always intentional by use of the p-* u-* etc. class
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tantek aaronpk - that sounds like examples of bad h-entrys that need explicit p-name properties
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aaronpk correct
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aaronpk the problem is as a consumer I can't tell whether the value was implied or explicit
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tantek right that's a problem for tools like indiewebfiy.me to help fix
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tantek aaronpk you shouldn't have to - that's the point
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aaronpk but in the mean time I do have to
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tantek why?
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aaronpk otherwise I get bad results
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tantek I didn't think there were any still
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aaronpk or I have to just completely ignore the "name" property since it may be ugly
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tantek aaronpk that's what http://indiewebify.me/validate-h-entry/ is for
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aaronpk but as a consumer I can't expect that everyone has correctly formatted h-entrys
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tantek actually yes you're supposed to expect that
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tantek and if they don't, you send them to http://indiewebify.me/validate-h-entry/
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tantek it's a simple enough publisher thing to fix / get right that it shouldn't be your problem
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aaronpk no, if I could expect properly formatted hentrys then I wouldn't need code that checks for things and then tells them to go to indiewebify
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tantek don't waste time coding around a problem which takes a lot less time to just notify someone they need to use http://indiewebify.me/validate-h-entry/
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aaronpk what you're saying is I need to code some knowledge of what is a valid h-entry and reject things that don't pass
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tantek well we're back what are you actual real world needs for "code that checks for things" then
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aaronpk which means I can't just blindly expect h-entrys I encounter are valid
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tantek no, you need to document real world examples of things you think are ugly
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tantek not write code
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aaronpk I'll show you some, one sec
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tantek don't show me
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tantek add it to the wiki somewhere
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tantek so we can keep track of them
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tantek and investigate what went wrong
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tantek patching a symptom is not necessarily the best approach
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kylewm making me think I need to turn off my logic for detecting auto-generated names
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tantek kylewm - yes please
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tantek because http://indiewebcamp.com/like#markup_for_hypertext_design *depends* on auto-generated names
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tantek (though it could be argued I should separate the name explicitly from the published)
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tantek (still thinking about that)
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kylewm sorry, what I mean to say is it detects names that are not an explicit title
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aaronpk okay where should I add these examples?
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kylewm what is Wall of Shame?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Wall of Shame" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Wall+of+Shame
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aaronpk I have two links where an h-entry has an implied name and *no* content property
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tantek kylewm that's not the most discoverable way to capture something :P
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tantek we have an /h-entry page - how about starting with a section there?
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tantek maybe even capture this as an #Issue
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tantek on that page, with the concrete real world examples that you have
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aaronpk http://indiewebcamp.com/comments-presentation#How_to_display
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tantek but you're talking about a publisher issue, not a consumer issue
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tantek if you've found links with bad h-entrys that's an h-entry issue
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aaronpk no I'm talking about as a consumer, what do I do when I counter that
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tantek consuming them, e.g. for comments, is just one use-case of that
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tantek aaronpk - no - see above where I said "patching a symptom is not necessarily the best approach"
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tantek investigating what went wrong is more important
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aaronpk okay but literally what am I supposed to do
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aaronpk because my code is going to do something
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tantek that depends on what we figure out
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tantek we can't figure that out until we analyze the real world examples which we can't do until you document them
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tantek is this not an obvious dependency chain?
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aaronpk the URLs I found actually have mf1 markup
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aaronpk so now I don't know if it's a problem with trying to return an mf2 result from mf1 or what
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tantek aaronpk - then that's even more interesting! hence why you need to document them!
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tantek right - document them so you don't have to be the only one analyzing them
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aaronpk on h-entry?
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tantek yes
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tantek since h-entrys are what you are having a problem with
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kylewm snarfed: hey what feed reader do you use with twitter-atom?
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aaronparecki.com edited /h-entry (+615) "add 3 URLs with badly formatted hEntrys" (view diff)
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snarfed kylewm: newsblur
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tantek aaronpk sounds like perhaps the default wordpress core hentry with broken themes (that lack the rest of the hentry properties) is the source of the problem
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tantek hmm - perhaps mf1 backcompat parsing should not get any implied properties.
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tantek (since no mf1 authors ever expect implied properties to happen)
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tantek s/expect/expected
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Loqi tantek meant to say: (since no mf1 authors ever expected implied properties to happen)
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aaronpk aha that would help
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tantek much better than you having to patch your code!
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kylewm those themes are broken even in mf1 aren't they? (should have entry-title)
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tantek kylewm: yes that is what I meant by "broken themes (that lack the rest of the hentry properties) is the source of the problem"
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kylewm skipping implied properties for backcompat doesn't seem like it fixes the actual problem then. just side steps it
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tantek kylewm: I disagree - "actual problem" is determined by what's documented.
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kylewm using mf1 as a heuristic for "probably badly marked up"
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tantek that's not the heuristic at all (strawman :P )
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tantek the conclusion is: no mf1 authors ever expected implied properties to happen
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tantek thus perhaps we should take that into consideration
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aaronpk is anyone else showing a list of mentions of their posts? http://indiewebcamp.com/mention
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aaronpk oh that's not the page I meant to link to
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tantek heh
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kylewm tantek: ok I see your point
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aaronpk is anyone publishing a mentions feed
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tantek what is a mentions feed?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "mentions feed" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=mentions+feed
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kylewm aaronpk: https://kylewm.com/mentions
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aaronparecki.com edited /mention-app (+4) "/* h-feed parsing */ link" (view diff)
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voxpelli aaronpk: I know pfefferle is on http://pfefferle.github.io/openwebicons/contact/
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aaronpk great now there's a couple examples
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voxpelli aaronpk: or you want something that's marked up in a way that an app can parse? that's tricky when a site uses my Disqus-like WebMentions
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tantek aaronpk - sounds good - stub the wiki page with them!
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aaronpk voxpelli: well presumably they're coming from some service so you could always provide the /mention-app with that URL
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aaronpk but that isn't what i'm after right now anyway
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voxpelli aaronpk: yeah, I'm thinking of exposing the mentions as h-entries and perhaps RSS at an endpoint one can point to
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aaronparecki.com created /mentions_feed (+273) "stub with dfn and some examples" (view diff)
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voxpelli and ideally there would be some markup one could add to the original site to enable discovery of that other page – perhaps a simple rel-alternate or something
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tantek !tell barnabywalters didn't you have a mentions feed somewhere? add yourself: https://indiewebcamp.com/mentions_feed
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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aaronpk voxpelli: totally. that could be used to send notifications to you. i'm collecting some notes here http://indiewebcamp.com/mention-app
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aaronpk tantek: I added him already
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tantek !tell barnabywalters nvm aaronpk added you. And welcome back!
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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aaronparecki.com edited /mentions_feed (+109) "why" (view diff)
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aaronpk tantek: I'm curious about your collapsed in-stream list of likes http://indiewebcamp.com/like##multiple+in-stream
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tantek aaronpk - what in particular? use-case?
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aaronpk that will result in a single h-entry with multiple urls?
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tantek oh I screwed that up didn't I
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aaronpk I don't know?
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tantek oops that was not the markup I had in my head
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aaronpk stops reading
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tantek lost when typing and didn't see it when reviewing
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tantek.com edited /like (+62) "/* markup for hypertext design */ fix multiple in-stream sequential like posts markup - was intended to be multiple h-entrys, and use p instead of div" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk - re-read http://indiewebcamp.com/like#%23multiple+in-stream
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tantek always intended one h-entry per like
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tantek regardless of presentation design
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aaronpk ah okay
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tantek thanks for the catch!
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aaronpk wasn't sure if you were trying something clever
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tantek well I was, but not that. ;)
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aaronpk the only problem I see with the new markup is that the second two entries have a name of just "aaronpk's photo" instead of "likes aaronpk's photo"
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tantek yeah
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aaronpk (also there's a space that looks out of place ( 23:45) instead of (23:45)
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tantek I could use an abbr to make an explicit p-name with "likes" in it
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aaronpk i guess I don't really care that much because as a consumer I do my own thing as soon as I see it has a like-of property, and pretty much ditch the rest of the properties
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tantek yeah darn the extra spaces from trying to make markup look easier to read
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aaronpk but for consumers not looking for "like-of" it would be nice if the name had something that made more sense
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tantek aaonpk - I figured, however it is still good to provide good p-name fallback for any h-entry
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tantek precisely
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tantek fixing
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aaronparecki.com created /mentions-feed (+26) "r" (view diff)
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aaronpk so the reason I wanted to see what other people do on their /mentions-feed is I am considering making that page entirely third-person text, the only place on my site where third-person text would appear
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tantek.com edited /like (+143) "/* markup for hypertext design */ use explicit p-name for cleaner result in simple h-entry readers, and abbr for expanded standalone p-names for second and later likes in a sequence" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk updated now with explicit p-name and abbr for explicit "likes " on each h-entry
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aaronpk neat
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tantek also the space " " time problem should be fixed ;)
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KevinMarks_ Hm, so do the weird likes I get via bridgy and webmention count as examples http://www.kevinmarks.com/highway1demo.html
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tantek almost - missed one
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tantek.com edited /like (-3) "/* markup for hypertext design */ fix one last space " " time problem" (view diff)
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aaronpk tantek: now that you're doing explicit p-name you don't have the problem of the extra space
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kylewm snarfed: have a sec to talk about https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/328 ?
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tantek oh odd
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snarfed kylewm: sure! in 5m?
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aaronpk there's no content for the h-entrys now, just a name
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kylewm snarfed: perfect
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tantek it is likely that consumers of the h-entry will display the published time separately anyway, thus including it in the p-name would look bad in those consumers
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aaronpk agreed
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tantek thus implying a need for explicit p-name
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tantek in this instance
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tantek aaronpk - exactly
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tantek likes have no content :P
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aaronpk that's a good example of an h-entry that is intended to not have a content property (or value)
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tantek the p-name is sufficient for anyone doing display to use it anywhere the need to display *something*
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tantek as previously documented on comment presentation
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aaronpk KevinMarks_: yes I've seen that problem on other sites from bridgy WMs
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aaronpk but I thought that problem was actually from the wordpress WM plugin
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voxpelli I'm pondering how to present a "like" in a mentions feed, aaronpk
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aaronpk me too
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voxpelli Because one post can both comment on one post on my site and like another
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KevinMarks_ Voxpelli: that was my issue too
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voxpelli So the "like" status is in the relation to a specific post rather than in the post itself :P
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aaronpk I don't think I've seen any "like" posts that are anything but a like
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KevinMarks_ Hang on, not that, the faves/retweets on my posts
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kylewm KevinMarks_: aaronpk: well that's a faithful reproduction of how bridgy presents the like ("X favorited this" and "favorited this" appear separately). so maybe an issue that needs to be fixd in bridgy
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aaronpk kylewm: maybe the bridgy favorites should drop the content property
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aaronpk consumers not looking for "like-of" would then just use the "name" which would say "X favorited this"
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voxpelli KevinMarks_: Yeah, I so need to fix that issue, adding support for likes will get a long way in that
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snarfed if someone is confident they can get the bridgy markup and content right so that it displays nicely in default comment presentations, ie that don't do anything special for likes etc, i'll *happily* merge a PR
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snarfed (markup is very much not my thing, so i'm unlikely to do it myself)
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voxpelli I think it may already be solved, we opened some issues for it long ago: https://github.com/voxpelli/webpage-webmentions/issues/10 (time flies)
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voxpelli I just need to step it up on my side
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snarfed voxpelli: ah, i assumed these examples were more recent. if it's better now then great!
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aaronpk kylewm: snarfed: yeah looking at this again now that tantek wrote up his markup example, i'm pretty sure dropping the "content" would be the correct thing to do
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snarfed aaronpk: hrm. does that assume consumers detect and handle like-of, etc?
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aaronpk if you don't look at like-of you'd just see the "name"
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snarfed ah ok. then sure, sgtm
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voxpelli aaronpk: any ideas on how to in a mentions feed handle a page mentioning multiple of your pages?
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aaronpk I was thinking something along the lines of "... commented on a post that linked to _____, _____ and ____"
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voxpelli Yeah, something like: "Post X liked Z and replied to A, B and C "
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aaronpk well a post is never going to be a like *and* something else
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voxpelli are you sure? on Twitter it's pretty usual that someone both likes and retweets somethings
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aaronpk those are separate posts
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aaronpk a like might mention another page though, like the bridgy notifications of "X liked a post that linked to Y"
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voxpelli is it written anywhere in the wiki that a post can only be a single kind of interaction?
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aaronpk I wasn't making a broad statement like that
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aaronpk just saying that "like" posts will only be a like, and not a like *plus* some other type
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voxpelli ok, so just a single type of interaction (+ possibly mentioning/linking to something else), but possibly be such an interaction for many targets
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aaronpk yeah
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voxpelli that makes it a lot easier
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aaronpk I haven't seen anything else other than that yet. The only thing close is http://indiewebcamp.com/multiple-reply
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KevinMarks previously in multiple likes: https://web.archive.org/web/20050203182620/http://www.technorati.com/live/votes.html
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colintedford aaronpk & voxpelli: acegiak publishes posts that are likes and other things at the same time: http://indiewebcamp.com/like#Acegiak
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colintedford I don't think it's common, though.
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aaronpk the first link there seems to have dropped the "like-of" property
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aaronpk now it's just an empty h-entry
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colintedford Hm, maybe they got talked out of it since then or have site issues.
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voxpelli I think one could represent a like, reply + reshare as that as just a reshare with a comment
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kylewm yeah I noticed that too; most of acegiak's posts were "liked and reposted" but now just "reposted"
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voxpelli But it poses the question what interaction to pick if multiple are available. Or one can just do what tantek suggested earlier I guess – and point out that they should fix it.
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@robotbrook Webmention.io https://webmention.io/ (twitter.com/_/status/549693860993978368)
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@robotbrook IndieAuth Documentation - Sign in with your domain name https://indieauth.com/setup (twitter.com/_/status/549693863938367488)
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aaronpk benwerd: I've got a funny problem if you have a minute
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benwerd sure
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aaronpk http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-12-28/line/1419802501438
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Loqi benwerd: tantek left you a message on 12/21 at 8:31pm: would be great to see a brief blog post / transcript of your explanation of indieweb vs federated wiki as tweeted in https://twitter.com/mshook/status/546883742015299584
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aaronpk I don't know how the routing thingy works in Known, but for some reason that get() function is running even when I make a POST request
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benwerd aaronpk: oh, that is odd
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benwerd it shouldn't be
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benwerd unless
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benwerd hold on
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benwerd goes to check
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benwerd (I'm wondering if something is causing a redirect, eg on the HTTPS check)
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benwerd But it doesn't look like it
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benwerd Is this on a local installation / somewhere else?
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aaronpk I don't think so, I was just seeing a plain http response with the contents of the get method
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aaronpk somewhere else, was working with anomalily on setting it up on her site
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aaronpk curl -i http://events.anomalily.net/indieauth/token -X POST
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aaronpk brand new install
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aaronpk I installed it on a subdomain of mine and it worked fine
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benwerd weird.
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benwerd could it be that there's a proxy on her server?
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aaronpk very. i was completely stumped.
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aaronpk doubtful, it's a relatively simple shared hosting provider
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benwerd hmm
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benwerd wondering if they have a freaky mod_rewrite implementation or ...
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benwerd grasps at straws
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aaronpk I got as far as identifying what was happening, but didn't know enough about Known to track down the problem further
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aaronpk any idea why that POST would fail but other POSTs work?
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