#indiewebcamp 2015-01-10

2015-01-10 UTC
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kylewm
benwerd: is it possible that Known doesn't recognize in-reply-to's that are objects instead of strings? I'm looking at like https://github.com/idno/idno/blob/a2203c47a547e065b0d8c1a1b6854a17eb0650ca/Idno/Common/Entity.php#L1604
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kylewm
and it looks like it's recently gotten more strict about distinguishing replies from mentions
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KevinMarks
wondering if I should turn the clues into <ol>
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benwerd
kylewm: hmm, maybe I need to re-examine the possible types there.
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benwerd
It is a little stricter, to avoid an issue we were having with blog posts in particular. I want to better define replies.
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kylewm
benwerd: here's a reply to you if you want something to test with https://kylewm.com/2015/01/we-are-admiring-your-podcast-in-indiechat-i-hope
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benwerd
kylewm: groovy
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benwerd
thanks
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benwerd
kylewm++ (x1000 at this point)
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Loqi
kylewm has 98 karma
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kylewm
the karma flows through me
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benwerd
kylewm: aha, I see the problem. yeah, we're effectively expecting u-in-reply-to but not p-in-reply-to
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kylewm
I'm hoping we can make that case easier at the mf meetup on the 20th!
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kylewm
well... maginally
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kylewm
marginally*
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GWG
Kylewm, which case?
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KevinMarks
if I want brid.gy to send me FB likes,I have to post on my own timeline, right? https://www.facebook.com/groups/newclues/permalink/1596052597295239/ isn't going to work?
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kylewm
GWG: so it's easier to handle both "u-in-reply-to" and "u-in-reply-to h-cite"
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GWG
Kylewm, okay
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benwerd
kylewm: I'll loop back and think about heuristics for this. Makes sense, I think, for p-in-reply-to with a u-url inside it to be effectively conflated to u-in-reply-to behind the scenes.
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kylewm
benwerd: sounds good. let me know if you want me to file a GH issue
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benwerd
kylewm: I'm writing one now :)
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benwerd
I'll cc you if that's ok
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kylewm
that's great
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GWG
I think I use p now
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KevinMarks
so will this show as POSSE to bridgy? I reposted the New Clues on my own site so that Webmentions and fragmentions can be used on it: http://www.kevinmarks.com/newclues.html ”ª#”Žindieweb”¬
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tantek
kylewm: indeed in anticiption we should likely change the "p-in-reply-to h-cite" recipe to "u-in-reply-to h-cite"
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tantek
btw who was asking about date clustered posts - where the date is only shown once and posts only show the time?
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tantek
asking about *examples of*
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tantek
adactio.com is one such example
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tantek
maybe colintedford was?
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kylewm
kylewm.com is now too (because I copied adactio)
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tantek
it was late last night
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GWG
It was 3am and I can't remember
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tantek.com
edited /reply-context (+0) "/* Markup */ use u-in-reply-to h-cite in anticipation of microformats2 parsing changes"
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GWG
Are you saying that I have to change my ps to us?
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kylewm
tantek++ good call
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Loqi
tantek has 138 karma
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tantek.com
edited /App.net (+74) "/* Issues */ u-in-reply-to h-cite"
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snarfed
KevinMarks: yes, bridgy will handle that fb post of yours
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GWG
Why is it that each time I read these conversations, I'm convinced that I am doing something wrong?
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tantek.com
edited /in-reply-to (+0) "u-in-reply-to h-cite"
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tantek.com
edited /reply-context (+0) "/* Markup */ u-in-reply-to h-cite"
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GWG
I need either more examples in the wiki or a consultant
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tantek.com
edited /mention-app (+127) "/* notification UI brainstorming */ u-in-reply-to h-cite"
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tantek
not sure how to capture that
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tantek
kylewm maybe collect it on http://indiewebcamp.com/stream if you want?
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tantek
ok no more p-in-reply-to
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kylewm
oh I don't really think it needs to be captured...just maybe slightly interesting for whoever was asking about it
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GWG
I need to go home and change a p to a u now
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kylewm
mind your p's and u's eh, GWG
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GWG
Darnit
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GWG
I need some advice before I try to fix this.
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GWG
kylewm: Can I prevail upon you?
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kylewm
sure, GWG
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GWG
How bad is this microformats wise
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kylewm
GWG: they look good, you can change p-like-of to u-like-of, but for now the parsing output will be exactly the same
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kylewm
(based on a misunderstanding between the spec and the parser implementers)
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GWG
So, all I have to do is change any instance of p to u?
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GWG
This is where I'm confused
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kylewm
it's a little bit tricky to explain. the idea is sort of to hvae a reasonable fallback
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kylewm
if i publish a "u-like-of h-cite" and you don't know how to handle h-cites specfically, you can just fallback to the u-like-of
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kylewm
see tantek's likes for a simple example
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kylewm
wait, bad example
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kylewm
heh, he dropped the h-cite
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colintedford
tantek: It was GWG who (offhandedly) asked about date-clustered posts last night http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-01-08#t1420768584227
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colintedford.com
edited /User:Colintedford.com (+111) "/* Better archives */ post-type archives"
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GWG
!tell prtksxna Discovered another bug in Post Kinds that would affect you. Might want to update for the fix.
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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GWG
kylewm: What's imageproxy on your site?
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GWG
kylewm: Thank you. Still looking at responsive images
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GWG
Keep jumping around
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colintedford.com
edited /User:Colintedford.com (+1191) "/* Working on */ url scheme"
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colintedford.com
edited /User:Colintedford.com (+14) "/* URL scheme */ reorder links to be separate for non-underlined styles"
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@dougmckown
@TryGhost I wish Ghost had #indieweb functionality/options. Any plan for that?
(twitter.com/_/status/553742156557737984)
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colintedford.com
edited /User:Colintedford.com (-10) "/* URL scheme */ fix link"
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GWG
colintedford: Looking at your site
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GWG
What is Facebonk?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "Facebonk" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Facebonk
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colintedford
GWG: heh, guess I should make a redirect ;)
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colintedford.com
created /Facebonk (+22) "Redirected page to [[Facebook]]"
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colintedford
Loqi, I want to know if you follow redirects and GWG want to know "What is Facebonk?"
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Loqi
Facebook is a popular content hosting silo and activity aggregator most well known for being the largest centralized social network on the web https://indiewebcamp.com/Facebonk
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colintedford
:D Thanks!
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colintedford.com
created /facebonk (+22) "Redirected page to [[Facebook]]"
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benwerd
Loqi, what is Friendface?
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benwerd
Decent answer, to be fair
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kylewm
!tell davidpeach for maps I have been really happy with aaronpk's tool for generating static map images https://github.com/esripdx/Static-Maps-API-PHP
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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colintedford.com
edited /User:Colintedford.com (+1207) "/* Working on */ Note names"
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colintedford.com
edited /User:Colintedford.com (-1) "/* URL scheme */ typo"
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colintedford.com
edited /User:Colintedford.com (+186) "/* Working on */ Summaries (+ reorder)"
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@benwerd
@joshuajuran Maybe we should have an #IndieWebCamp Vegas. #whatswebmentionedinvegasstaysinvegas #vegasisasilo
(twitter.com/_/status/553763271451238400)
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tantek.com
edited /2015-01-01-commitments (+254) "/* See Also */ add articles about, what is your (post)"
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tantek
oops @-name typo
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@t
2015-01-01 personal site launches so far: https://indiewebcamp.com/2015-01-01-commitments Add yours, post+POSSE #indieweb. Blogging soon! (ttk.me t4_44)
(twitter.com/_/status/553769383399809024)
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tantek
manual POSSE CRUD on that first one. delete tweet (had no interactions) + re-POSSE = update.
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KevinMarks
silos trying to invent linking
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tantek
hahaha that's hilarious
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tantek
the FB stuff was so broken on launch - what was it called? AppLinks?
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tantek
totally ignorable
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@ayirpelle
RT @t: 2015-01-01 personal site launches so far: https://indiewebcamp.com/2015-01-01-commitments Add yours, post+POSSE #indieweb. Blogging soon! (ttk.me t4_44)
(twitter.com/_/status/553774078403026944)
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Loqi
[bridgy] ✌ matt j. sorenson ✌ favorited a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2015-01-01-commitments (https://twitter.com/t/status/553769383399809024)
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KevinMarks
hm, so public in fb groups still means "login required" ?
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snarfed.org
edited /Twitter (-117) "/* Profile Image URLs */ no more FUD, size details"
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colintedford.com
edited /2015-01-01-commitments (+121) "/* Additional 2015-01 launches */ colintedford improved archive pages"
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tantek
good evening #indiewebcamp!
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GWG
Good evening, tantek
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kylewm.com
edited /pubsub (-3) "/* Generalised Flow */ grammar policin'"
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kylewm.com
edited /pubsub (-1) "/* Previous/Current Work */ fix typo"
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@Wordius
@aribadernatal Have a Jekyll blog with Webmentions. Mind me asking how you are publishing Tweets?
(twitter.com/_/status/553824386109931521)
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colintedford.com
edited /User:Colintedford.com (+372) "De-dupe FB preview. Move noise filter from Wants to Working on, clean & expand."
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@dweinberger
@KevinMarks has posted a version of the #NewClues you can annotate. Includes list of WebMentions. http://www.kevinmarks.com/newclues.html #OpenSourcePub
(twitter.com/_/status/553926747859984384)
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@WarnerCrocker
RT @kevinmarks: I reposted the New Clues on my own site so that Webmentions and fragmentions can be used on it: http://www.kevinmarks.com/newclues.html #ind…
(twitter.com/_/status/553927053419237376)
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@montemagno
RT @dweinberger: @KevinMarks has posted a version of the #NewClues you can annotate. Includes list of WebMentions. http://www.kevinmarks.com/newclues.html #…
(twitter.com/_/status/553931099496542208)
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GWG
Morning
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GWG
Hello, Phyks
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GWG
Any indieweb themed excitement there?
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Phyks
not much today… I'm working on setting up a firefox account + firefox sync server on my server :)
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GWG
You run sync locally?
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Phyks
no, I plan on using my own server to store my data, instead of Mozilla's ones
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GWG
I got that. Just confirming I understood.
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Phyks
ah, sorry, I misunderstood your question =(
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GWG
One of these days, I may come up with a way to host my bookmarks on my site. I've never quite figured out a manner that makes them useful.
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tantek
good morning #indiewebcamp!
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aaronpk
good morning!
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tantek
aaronpk, ben_thatmust - my Known / idno pull request was merged, so no more u-media
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aaronpk
hooray!
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aaronpk
I wonder how long until it makes it into werd.io and others
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aaronpk
looks like it's already on werd.io!
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aaronpk
although he has a p-photo property with a text description as well. is that expected?
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tantek
didn't see that. URL?
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aaronpk
if that is expected, then a consumer is going to have to look for a value in the "photo" array that looks like a URL
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tantek
that doesn't make any sense
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tantek
<h2 class="p-photo"><a href="http://werd.io/2015/scotch-eggs-hit-the-hipster-scene">Scotch eggs hit the hipster scene.</a></h2>
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tantek
there's no photo there
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tantek
that looks like a typo - that should be a p-name
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tantek
goes back to searching idno source
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aaronpk
css styles targeting microformat classes?
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aaronpk
I don't know if this is something you were expecting, but I made a point of never adding css rules to microformat classes, I always add a separate class if I need to for CSS
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tantek
I had mentioned a while ago that I use separate classes for styling
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tantek
hadn't quite "made a point" of it yet because I was still figuring it out
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aaronpk
maybe we should say that explicitly on wiki pages for h-entry and others
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tantek
I don't know what to say because I don't quite understand what a best practice would be
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aaronpk
hm. well what i've been doing is writing my CSS as I normally would have without microformats classes.
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aaronpk
and treating the microformats classes as a totally separate set of things to add to the markup
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aaronpk
my CSS skills aren't that great, so I can't recommend a particular strategy for CSS, but that pattern could apply to anyone
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aaronpk
side note: akismet is sucking pretty bad lately
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aaronpk
it's just not catching hundreds of comments
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aaronpk
also how am I getting trackbacks when "allow link notifications from other blogs (pingbacks and trackbacks)" is un-checked
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snarfed
KevinMarks: re the FB group posts, you're right, bridgy doesn't currently support FB groups
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snarfed
we could definitely consider adding it. i don't use FB groups though, so i/we'd probably want help from someone who knows the UX
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gRegor`
aaronpk: Is this on a WordPress site? Do you report the missed spam to Akismet or just delete it?
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gRegor`
I'm getting a lot more "literate" spam slipping through.
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ben_thatmust
tantek, cool. I hadn't dealt with the u-media bits yet anyway, so that work
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gRegor`
My custom plugin doesn't have a tool yet for submitting it to Akismet, which they say is supposed to make it better.
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aaronpk
gRegor`: I was clicking the "spam" button, is that reporting it to akismet?
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aaronpk
i did that for about 5 pages of comments, then realized there were 50 more pages and stopped, and just deleted them from the database with a SQL query
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gRegor`
I think it should be, yeah
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gRegor`
I'm going to try adding an easy method to my plugin to bulk report and see if it gets better.
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kylewm
snarfed: had an FB API question for you, I can't seem to get any information about my friends or their posts through the API anymore. including facebook-atom is empty
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kylewm
is that new??
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snarfed
huh. :( may be related to the a-u 403
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kylewm
I think so
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snarfed
maybe part of the v1 api turndown
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snarfed
supposed to not be until april, but still
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snarfed
a-u etc all still use v1 :( fixing should just be adding v2.2/ to the API urls, but i'm scared
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kylewm
but even in the API Explorer, I got to /v2.2/>{user-id}/posts and it's empty
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snarfed
grr. new laptop keeps disconnecting whenever the screen sleeps
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snarfed
kylewm: access tokens may not be compatible across api versions?
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snarfed
not sure
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kylewm
oh huh, actually /212038/posts (that's you) works
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kylewm
maybe a privacy setting
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snarfed
kylewm: on the plus side, bridgy is still seeing FB data, e.g. https://www.brid.gy/facebook/12802152#responses
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snarfed
(unless the problem started <16h ago)
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kylewm
I really don't want to know what "glob-watcher" means if it doesn't mean watching the filesystem for like **/*.html
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aaronpk
indeed
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@cubicgarden
Loving the new clues of the @cluetrain. We got to talk about this and #indieweb at @commongroundmcr @Julianlstar @davemee @technicalfault
(twitter.com/_/status/554006592900046848)
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GWG
I just realized I have been stuck in indiewebcamp code and haven't eaten today
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KartikPrabhu
Loqi playback?
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GWG
Hi, KartikPrabhu
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kylewm
ben_thatmust: i was able to post a photo from your app, worked great! https://kylewm.com/2015/01/test-post-from-dissolve-s-micropub-app
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kylewm
ben_thatmust: but the "gallery" button didn't seem to do anything (ergo the picture of my laptop in the dark)
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kylewm
started looking at writing an android notifications app and was immediatley overwhelmed :(
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snarfed
so, re twitter profile pictures changing…i give in. i'm switching bridgy to use the unofficial url that permanently redirects to the current picture
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snarfed
i wish instagram had that kind of thing. IG profile pictures still change often. :/
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snarfed
…but at least FB, G+, and twitter will now all be evergreen
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KartikPrabhu
snarfed: would bridgy return the original size or the normal one?
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snarfed
KartikPrabhu: original
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snarfed
"normal" is only 48x48 :(
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snarfed
details in that wiki link
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KartikPrabhu
snarfed: yeah I saw. but original could be huge!
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KartikPrabhu
guess up to me to fiddle around with that
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snarfed
i think twitter limits it…but regardless, that's what bridgy already does
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snarfed
no change
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KartikPrabhu
yeah i suppose I should resize and cache them or something
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snarfed
eh, or not
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snarfed
i doubt any are that big
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snarfed
punt until it actually causes you a user-visible prolem
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aaronpk
snarfed: yay! I think that's a good start. But probably we should all be better about storing profile photos on our own sites, especially since we have to in order to not get ssl warnings
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Loqi
giggles
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snarfed
aaronpk: sure! and also i know you like the idea of preserving their picture at that moment
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snarfed
this still fully supports those
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snarfed
deployed
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KartikPrabhu
avatar loading from twitter is already a bottle neck in my site loading performance
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KevinMarks_
The pictures in the unstyled facepiles were comically huge on my site
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KevinMarks_
Will this fix the now blank ones, or would voxpelli need to refetch?
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snarfed
KevinMarks: this shouldn't change any of those issues
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KevinMarks_
Only in future
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snarfed
not even then
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snarfed
the resulting images will be the same; the only change is that the img src will now point to a url that redirects to the current image, instead of directly to it
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snarfed
so, sorry, yes, it will prevent blanks in the future
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snarfed
but not the sizing
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KevinMarks_
Even the "large" twitter images end up small on my phone
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snarfed
btw aaronpk, hopefully the mixed mode warnings are caused by native wms (if at all), not by bridgy. it tries hard to always return https profile picture urls
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aaronpk
I wasn't really paying attention, I just know that the only way to guarantee https is to serve them myself
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KevinMarks_
I suppose a fix is to patch the webmention service to return srcset markup?
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snarfed1
KevinMarks: sure, that's one approach
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snarfed1
argh
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KevinMarks_
Hm, a thought. I could make a webmention silo with webmention.herokuapp.com
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KevinMarks_
As it accepts webmentions for any site
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snarfed
btw KartikPrabhu, if your site "feels" slow w/twitter profile pictures, it may be the number of connections, not the size
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snarfed
looking at my pictures as a sample, my "original" 512x512 one is ~30K, and the "normal" 48x48 one is ~2K. so, bigger, but not actually big per se
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KevinMarks_
So if I don't find a webmention endpoint, call them instead, then in the future if they add the webmention.herokuapp.com markup, they get the older ones.
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snarfed
KevinMarks: totally! i think i've also heard discussion about offering that w/wm.io
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KartikPrabhu
snarfed: yeah it is the number of connections. but then 30K vs 2K is also a factor of 10
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KevinMarks_
Probably a naughty thing to do to voxpelli's Heroku bill
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snarfed
KartikPrabhu: sure, hence "not big per se." 30K is fairly small in absolute terms, on the modern internet.
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KartikPrabhu
fair enough. avatar loading is a weird problem
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snarfed
more importantly though, those image fetches don't block fetching and rendering your page. the only thing that blocks is filling in the avatar images. so the slow "feeling" is probably mostly just seeing the "Connecting to twitter.com" bar in the bottom
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snarfed
we may notice that, but i expect most people are blind to it, so maybe don't stress :P
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KartikPrabhu
<sigh> I can't do responsive images then I use JS to load the correct size image and avatar loading then blocks content images from loading
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KevinMarks_
That's also a webmention spam model though
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tantek
checks to see if <h2 class="p-photo"> has been magically fixed… and no.
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KevinMarks_
Why do you think styling microformats classes is bad?
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tantek
KevinMarks: it's not an absolute good/bad thing, it's more like a flexibility of engineering, reducing unintended maintenance connections/burdens
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tantek
once again, starting with an issue describing the problem and linking to a real world example: https://github.com/idno/idno/issues/705
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KevinMarks
ah. also switching mf2 type might casuse issues eg p-author vs e-author
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kylewm
is "realtime notifications for h-feed updates" basically considered a solved problem (by PuSH)?
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tantek
kylewm: it's not until we have multiple indie web PuSH consumers, e.g. indie readers
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tantek
KevinMarks: could you be more specific? in what case?
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KevinMarks
there are times when a p- property could be an e- property
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tantek
hmm - looks like p-bookmark might be a mis-use also
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KevinMarks
summary for example
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tantek
KevinMarks: specific example?
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kylewm
tantek: that's fair. i guess my question is: is there general consensus that PuSH is the mechanism indiereaders should try first before inventing something new?
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tantek
No other alternate mechanism has been proposed, and we haven't had sufficient pushback (no pun intended) against PuSH by people trying to implement PuSH consuming.
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@somegermandude
IndieWeb makes my tiny, little (and pretty) head hurt.
(twitter.com/_/status/554054734534160386)
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KartikPrabhu
iirc PuSH requires a central hub doesn't it?
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KartikPrabhu
and fwiw I use mf2 classes to style
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kylewm
KartikPrabhu: I *think* it's like indieauth, where you can choose a third party provider to delegate to
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KartikPrabhu
but if everyone implements their own PuSH hub, then my site would have to keep records of all of those subscribing to send them notifications no?
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kylewm
no, your site says "I'm using hub XYZ", and then when someone wants to subscribe to updates from your site, they subscribe to it on the hub you specify
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KartikPrabhu
hmm what is the difference with just polling my h-feed link then?
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KartikPrabhu
as in what is the advantage of having PuSH notifications over readers polling my h-feed?
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kylewm
you get notified when the feed updates
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kylewm
push instead of pull
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KartikPrabhu
i am confused
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KartikPrabhu
reader will poll my hub wouldn't they?
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kylewm
no, the reader registers for a callback from the hub
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kylewm
so the hub pings your reader only when there are updates
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KartikPrabhu
so the hub keeps records of readers who have subscribed
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kylewm
(the hub itself may do polling, but that is an implementation detail)
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KartikPrabhu
same problem. if I make my own hub instead of some central one, then my hub will have to keep records of all subscribers
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kylewm
yeah, that is why the hubs exist :P
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KartikPrabhu
how is that different from a notification silo?
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kylewm
like Pushover?
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KartikPrabhu
i get it as a stop-gap measure
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KartikPrabhu
or reducing polling to your own site
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kylewm
I don't really understand your objection
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KartikPrabhu
well. I don't want to rely on a third-party hub. Then I have to run my own hub which makes me keep records of all subscribers. I just don't see the advantage over readers polling my h-feed to get updates. They can do so without me tracking who is subscribed
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KartikPrabhu
i mean why should I build this large plumbing just to not rely on third-party hubs, when readers can use an existing mechanism ( polling h-feeds ) to get updates?
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kylewm
yeah that's certainly your prerogative
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kylewm
if you don't specify a hub, shrewdness still subscribes to updates to your site on superfeedr, and superfeedr deals with the polling
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tantek
hmm - I seem to have been disconnected quietly ~20min ago
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tantek
kylewm: I had said: 15:25 kylewm: thus I think the current consensus / passive opinion is to *try* consuming real-time via PuSH and see how easy/hard it is.
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kylewm
tantek: thanks that's exactly what i wanetd to know
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tantek
15:28 KevinMarks: in answer to your question - in order to fix a *one line* microformats2 error in *one file* in idno / Known, I had to also touch *four* other style sheet files, since they were depending on the previous/wrong microformats2 class name.
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tantek
15:28 Thus 5x the amount of work that would otherwise be necessary for a microformats markup bug fix, caused *purely* by depending on that/those microformats2 class names for CSS rules.
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tantek
15:30 whereas if those style sheets depended on non-microformats classes instead, I wouldn't have had to touch them at all
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tantek
15:33 Thus, "styling microformats classes" causes more maintenence work when you make microformats related fixes / changes / updates / improvements, real world example ^^^
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tantek
so far the evidence is anecdotal, but it does seem like having a set of classes specifically for styling rather than microformats allows for a more easily maintained overall system.
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: I get those things. But again is there any advantage over my reader polling you h-feed instead of doing all this round about trickery?
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tantek
you can more easily make microformats changes/fixes without worrying about breaking styling
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tantek
and vice versa - you can make styling class name / style rule changes, without worrying about breaking the microformats.
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kylewm
KartikPrabhu: the advantage is real time. i'm specifically asking because i'm looking at /mention-app
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kylewm
i want to get push notifications for webmentions before i get them for the posse twitter copies :)
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kylewm
which seems like a pretty achievable goal
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KartikPrabhu
hmm so the choice seems to be 1. rely on third-party hub 2. run own PuSH notifications and keep lists of subscribers
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kylewm
i can't think of any alternative to those two
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KartikPrabhu
anyway nothing I write needs to be real-time anyway at the moment
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@ThatEmil
Welcome to the 1st episode of "Implementing Webmention in Django whilst drunk". Today's episode is sponsored by {{ http://hipster.beer }}
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