2015-01-21 UTC
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# 01:16 tantek KartikPrabhu: no see prev wiki edit before that from aaronpk
# 01:18 KartikPrabhu tantek: for that: one could just show up and people would help one get setup and register at an IWC no?
# 01:20 KartikPrabhu i mean if someone just showed up and didn't register or have a rel-me etc... they wouldn't be sent back
# 01:23 KartikPrabhu of course I don't mean that "just show up" should be put on the wiki. But "just showing up" demostrates some initiative
# 01:27 tantek and we have something like that - it's called being an apprentice
# 01:27 tantek which means you have to AT LEAST try to contact someone who is registered and ask to be their apprentice
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# 01:28 tantek if you're not willing to show that much initiative, then why should you take up room that someone else could use?
# 01:36 tantek it's good to have intentional barriers like that
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# 01:43 tantek KevinMarks - I'll wait for that to be an actual problem
# 01:45 tantek KevinMarks in practice it is not because very few locations have both
# 01:46 tantek it is not - do you know what location aaronpk was talking about?
# 01:46 tantek !tell aaronpk for which location was someone (or how many people) asking the high bar question?
# 01:46 Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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# 01:48 tantek correct. already answered: very few locations have both, thus my essay applies to the vast majority of IndieWebCamps, and I'm *guessing* the one that aaronpk is being bugged about
# 01:49 tantek besides the amount of travel time for the average person to make it to a HWC is >> the amount of time to setup a personal website. or to hop into this channel and ask
# 01:50 tantek and I suppose about humility (counter-arrogance) (the ability to "ask for help")
# 01:51 tantek the barriers are deliberately designed to discourage those who:
# 01:52 tantek lack passion for a personal site - sorry, if you don't care, you're likely diluting an indiewebcamp - not contributing to it
# 01:52 tantek don't have time to setup indieauth (then you certainly don't have time to spend at an indiewebcamp)
# 01:53 tantek don't care about adding even small things to the wiki - then you don't care about our kind of community, and we'd rather focus indiewebcamps on people who do all step up to doing that
# 01:54 tantek so yes, the barriers are designed as a filter. to filter in the qualities that help make a healthy indiewebcamp community, and perhaps more importantly to filter OUT the qualities that dilute or destroy community.
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# 01:55 tantek in this case the simple "work" is setting up your own site with indieauth and editing the wiki
# 02:11 KevinMarks_ are doi's not resolved by google scholar or the internet archive?
# 02:11 tommorris and, I'm sure Google and Internet Archive probably keep mappings of DOIs to things, but the canonical resolver is dx.doi.org
# 02:12 KevinMarks_ this is the weird thing now, that searching the quotation is more resilient than the reference
# 02:13 KevinMarks_ noticing this with my sons' essays - I don't have the jstor access they do, but given the quote I cna usually find some uni that has posted the paper online
# 02:14 tommorris if I had whitehouse.gov, I'd sure want that to be the canonical place for my stuff. :)
# 02:15 tommorris same in the UK. that's why the National Archives basically just ran an internal Internet Archive-style dump of everything.
# 02:17 tommorris also, on cool government domains, though whitehouse.gov is good, it's not quite as good as friends of mine who have email addresses @digital.justice.gov.uk
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# 02:18 Tantek__ Darn it. According to google maps I'm going to be 15min late for the microformats dev meetup. Tommorris kevinmarks kylewm can you all find each other and grab some adjacent table space?
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# 02:38 kylewm tommorris: I went one exit too far on Bart like a noob. heading back toward the mall in two minutes
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# 02:46 kylewm just don't go up the curved escalators. dead end!
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# 03:17 Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
# 03:17 kylewm-du-dome oui bien monsieur!
# 03:18 kylewm-du-dome I also have a free wifi hotspot that blocks my ZNC port
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# 03:25 Loqi aaronpk: tantek left you a message 1 hour, 38 minutes ago: for which location was someone (or how many people) asking the high bar question?
# 03:26 KevinMarks_ you can go up the curved escalators, but you have to stop after 3 and walk out to the right
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# 04:03 Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
# 04:04 KevinMarks_ !tell GWG we're discussing changing the back compatibility rules to not add mf2 properties to mf1 containers
# 04:04 Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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# 04:05 Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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# 04:17 Loqi GWG: KevinMarks_ left you a message 13 minutes ago: we're discussing changing the back compatibility rules to not add mf2 properties to mf1 containers
# 04:18 KevinMarks_ hi, we're in #microformats trying to work out the mixed mode implications for parsres
# 04:18 KevinMarks_ and what the constraints are with different combinations of plugins
# 04:19 GWG That would be a problem for backwards compatibility, wouldn't it?
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# 04:21 KevinMarks_ that's what we're trying to work out - implied properties don't make sense for an mf1 marked-up post as that was never intended
# 04:21 KevinMarks_ but if you have an mf1 container with mf2 contents, it gets trickire
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# 04:59 tantek !tell voxpelli I resent the webmention to KevinMarks's post and my face in the facepile now errantly links to my home page (tantek.com) instead of the like permalink: http://tantek.com/2015/016/f1 (but at least it changed in real time! it used to link to tantek.com/2015)
# 04:59 Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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# 06:59 voxpelli tantek: it's actually meant to link to your profile like that, as it could only link to one or the other I thought the author profile was more interesting
# 06:59 Loqi voxpelli: tantek left you a message 1 hour, 59 minutes ago: I resent the webmention to KevinMarks's post and my face in the facepile now errantly links to my home page (tantek.com) instead of the like permalink: http://tantek.com/2015/016/f1 (but at least it changed in real time! it used to link to tantek.com/2015)
# 07:04 tantek huh - yet the retweets link to specific permalinks
# 07:04 tantek seems to make more sense to link to a permalink (verification) when you have it
# 07:04 tantek and then only fallback to author / profile links
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# 10:16 fkooman aaronpk: hi! i am having some problems with using indieauth with 'https://www.tuxed.net/fkooman' , can you see what is going on? sometimes there is a TLS error, sometimes it doesn't find and rel links, sometimes only GitHub, but continuing with GitHub still doesn't work then :(
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# 10:31 michielbdejong fkooman: if you click Re-Scan it gets the SSL error. But if you refresh the page it recognizes github.
# 10:32 michielbdejong This might be because of the bug where the IndieAuth server needs to be restarted every hour
# 10:57 michielbdejong !tell tantek thanks for reporting the webmention error, I found a workaround for it, should be working now.
# 10:57 Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
# 10:57 michielbdejong !tell KartikPrabhu thanks for reporting the webmention error, I found a workaround for it, should be working now.
# 10:57 Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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# 15:09 GWG I need some advice. Playing with models on my test site. Still needs refining, but if you go to tiny.n9n.us and click a photo, how does it look?
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# 17:33 Loqi tantek: michielbdejong left you a message 6 hours, 36 minutes ago: thanks for reporting the webmention error, I found a workaround for it, should be working now.
# 17:40 Loqi KartikPrabhu: michielbdejong left you a message 6 hours, 42 minutes ago: thanks for reporting the webmention error, I found a workaround for it, should be working now.
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# 17:42 GWG Doesn't surprise me. But it makes it look like the open source software is
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# 17:44 kylewm this is wordpress.com not wordpress in general, right?
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# 17:46 GWG WordPress the platform is as HTTPS as the person hosting it makes it
# 18:09 tantek KartikPrabhu: perhaps add that httpswatch thing about wordpress dot com to indiewebcamp.com/WordPress.com in a Criticism section?
# 18:11 Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
# 18:14 GWG I still need an opinion, if anyone is available.
# 18:15 GWG I can't figure out the best way to do something
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# 18:21 bret heh, i do now pdurbin! ill check it out
# 18:23 aaronpk fkooman: i'm getting an error that your ssl cert doesn't match the name, but it works fine for me in the browser
# 18:28 bret documents need to cache their own references if they actually care about longevity, pointers cant be trusted long term!
# 18:29 voxpelli I'm thinking of highlighting where a WebMention was posted and if it was posted through a third-party site, but can't really find any thoughts on how to best do that in the wiki
# 18:29 bret also “let’s just give a number to everything” is about as antiquated as the phone number system lol
# 18:30 voxpelli I noticed that eg. aaronpk only shows origin of mentions through favicons-like icons in the facepile
# 18:30 aaronpk voxpelli: where a webmention was posted? how do you mean?
# 18:31 voxpelli I was thinking something like "Published 2 days ago on [twitter.com] through [brid.gy]"
# 18:31 aaronpk the icons I show are just twitter, facebook and instagram icons if the author URL matches that domain
# 18:31 aaronpk I do something like that when I show vouched mentions now
# 18:32 voxpelli Would love to give some cred to indieweb friendly tools like brid.gy and I guess something like app.net if they were to send WebMentions themselves
# 18:33 aaronpk there isn't really a mechanism in the webmention protocol for the webmention sender to authenticate itself
# 18:33 voxpelli Twitter showing which apps a tweet was posted through was probably key in creating the thriving ecosystem it had
# 18:34 aaronpk totally. people are already doing that with micropub posts
# 18:34 voxpelli Yeah, I was thinking of initially matching the hostname of the source URL and the h-entry URL – source URL being Brid.gy, the h-entry URL being eg. Twitter
# 18:34 aaronpk take a look at my notes or photos, they'll say "posted via quill.p3k.io" or "posted via ownyourgram.com"
# 18:35 voxpelli Would it make sense to mark that data up so it could show on other sites pulling in that comment as well?
# 18:37 aaronpk have there been any other webmention proxys or senders?
# 18:38 voxpelli I guess some tools both do the micropub publishing and the pinging or such?
# 18:38 aaronpk there's also a difference between something like bridgy which is a proxy for webmentions vs things like the page on indiewebify.me which can send webmentions on your behalf
# 18:38 aaronpk the difference is bridgy creates source URLs on its own, but indiewebify.me uses your own source URL
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# 18:39 voxpelli ownyourgram and bridgy is kind of similar only that ownyourgram pushes the data to your site whereas bridgy creates its own source URL
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# 18:41 voxpelli so if ownyourgram were to trigger webmentions it could be interesting to highlight it as the app/tool in WebMentions – and also in IndieReaders
# 18:41 aaronpk oh like ownyourgram could send webmentions for comments on the instagram photos it posted?
# 18:41 aaronpk (i'm unlikely to make it do that because bridgy already handles instagram, but I get your point)
# 18:42 voxpelli yep, and my endpoint showing the mention as "posted 1 day ago on aaronparecki.com with ownyourgram"
# 18:43 voxpelli so if that data could just be marked up somehow as part of the h-entry that would enable discoverability of tools in all readers
# 18:44 aaronpk i like the idea. thinking about how to display it and how to determine what was used for webmentions
# 18:44 voxpelli aaronpk: can't really find the "posted via quill.p3k.io" on your site, am I perhaps looking in the wrong place?
# 18:46 voxpelli seems like you are already marking it up with u-client-id, great!
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# 18:57 aaronpk indieauth.com parses that to show the app name and icon when you're signing in
# 19:04 aaronpk but when I go to the server and drop into the interactive shell, I can fetch it just fine
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# 20:37 cweiske is anyone using the firefox social api for his micropub client?
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# 20:46 tantek sees that tommorris 's site supports receiving webmentions but wonders if likes are displayed anywhere (or fallback to comments)
# 20:54 kylewm cweiske: Known has a social API post interface, but not micropub
# 20:56 cweiske native browser support for bookmarking and sharing
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# 21:18 GWG KevinMarks_: Get Jeff Jarvis onto the Indieweb?
# 21:18 GWG To stop posting snippets on his own site and full pieces of his book on medium?
# 21:19 GWG How about getting me some people for an HWC in NYC?
# 21:19 GWG You could also recruit for SFO, CHI, PDX, and wherever else they are looking
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# 21:24 tantek isn't that kind of what we have in #indiewebcamp IRC? "write in a like a twitter interface" (limited to n? chars)
# 21:24 tantek though Loqi is not quite "can chat w/ an intelligent bot"… yet ;)
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# 21:41 voxpelli Is there a mf2 equivilant to rel-home? Or what's the prefered way to point out the frontpage on eg. a h-entry page?
# 21:42 bret voxpelli: isnt that just the URL of the author?
# 21:42 tantek voxpelli: since it's a page-to-page relationship, not sure what else you need beyond rel-home
# 21:42 tantek as in - what use-case are you trying to solve?
# 21:42 voxpelli tantek: trying to add a "posted 2 days ago on <site name>" to comments
# 21:43 tantek voxpelli: that sounds like you're looking for h-feed p-name
# 21:44 Loqi gives voxpelli a link for it as well though
# 21:44 aaronpk rascul: doesn't the OS cache stuff in RAM anyway?
# 21:44 tantek presuming you're already using h-cite to markup comments
# 21:44 tantek then use p-publisher for marking up the site name / source
# 21:44 rascul aaronpk yes but there's no way to be sure it stays there or for how long
# 21:44 bret rascul: do you use config management at all for your servers?
# 21:45 voxpelli tantek: sorry for not being clear with what I'm doing – so I'm importing a post after they have WebMentioned me and I want to link to the front page of the site that the original post was posted on – not the author archive
# 21:46 aaronpk voxpelli: under what circumstances do you expect the "front page of the site" to be different from the author's URL?
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# 21:46 tantek I'd agree with aaronpk - why "front page" of the site? there's no proof that the post was ever on the "front page" of the site
# 21:46 rascul i'm doing big server changes right now though, so site changes aren't viable for me quite yet
# 21:46 tantek and thus the text "posted on …" is potentially misleading
# 21:47 tantek voxpelli: seems like noise in the UI on your side
# 21:47 rascul bret i'm building tiny, single purpose read only virtual machines with buildroot to run things in
# 21:48 tantek voxpelli: consider instead "posted using …" (name of tool or site)
# 21:48 voxpelli tantek: it would add nice discoverability for tools though + many are already hard-coding similar solutions for the biggest silos, highlighting content from just twitter and similar
# 21:48 tantek and yeah I've been using poshformat class name for "using" for sometime
# 21:49 voxpelli sure, would rel-home be the right thing to use then for "site"?
# 21:50 rascul bret when i get it running (almost there, just got over the last major hurdle) i'll work on publicly documenting what i did, someone might find it interesting
# 21:50 tantek it would - however it wouldn't give you something accurate for "Posted on …"
# 21:50 tantek since like I said - any particular post might not have ever been on the "home" page
# 21:51 aaronpk it shows the domain name of the URL of submissions
# 21:52 tantek voxpelli: no - rel-home is not right for "tool"
# 21:52 tantek more like the work that aaronpk has been doing with micropub and app
# 21:52 tantek and linking to the *tool* home page, not the home page of the person posting
# 21:53 aaronpk I used "u-client-id" in my markup because it's the value of the client ID used during IndieAuth
# 21:53 voxpelli tantek: arronpk's work on tools was what I'm going to use, the u-client-id, but wanted more
# 21:53 tantek e.g. for your Tweet compilations … does it say noterlive? ;)
# 21:54 tantek yeah client-id sounds like an opaque number / code
# 21:55 voxpelli ideally I would like the same discoverability of tools as Twitter had when their ecosystem was thriving – every tweet having a link to the app which posted it – doing the same for eg. brid.gy would be nice – will just try something with client-id then
# 21:55 tantek voxpelli: now that is a very good use-case. please stub it out there ^^^
# 21:58 voxpelli btw, known that the wiki doesn't redirect to https but that indieauth only logs you in on https, not http?
# 21:59 aaronpk I want to redirect everything but need an image proxy first to avoid mixed content warnings
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# 22:01 GWG aaronpk: I know a cheap CDN that supports https, if that helps
# 22:01 aaronpk not really. I need to figure out how to make a mediawiki filter that can rewrite hotlinked image URLs
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# 22:22 voxpelli aaronpk: perhaps you can take a look at that page and add some of your thoughts as well=
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# 22:28 GWG Anyone have any good photo post thoughts?
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# 22:47 aaronpk the work snarfed and I did in webmention.io to make it show nice sentences here is great, and I don't want to re-create the logic in PHP for my site
# 22:47 aaronpk I'm wondering if I can have my site send a copy of all my webmentions to webmention.io so that it generates the text for me
# 22:47 voxpelli aaronpk: giving-crdit, nice! makes the new page unnecessary for now :P
# 22:48 aaronpk or perhaps we can move the crediting apps section to tools, since the credit page also talks about crediting people
# 22:49 kylewm !tell snarfed I'm looking at the facebook API, it seems there is no way to find a post ID from its URL anymore?? (or a user ID from their username). I must be wrong right?
# 22:49 Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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# 23:01 Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
# 23:03 Loqi snarfed: kylewm left you a message 13 minutes ago: I'm looking at the facebook API, it seems there is no way to find a post ID from its URL anymore?? (or a user ID from their username). I must be wrong right?
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# 23:05 kylewm i've been following along, that's what made me hopeful that you could lookup by username
# 23:05 snarfed by bare username yes, but they don't usually support USERNAME_OBJECTID
# 23:06 kylewm "message": "(#803) Cannot query users by their username (stephanie.rodgers.980)",
# 23:06 snarfed ahhh right. works for pages, but not for users? huh
# 23:07 snarfed ugh, then yeah, you did all your homework. maybe via search?
# 23:08 snarfed so one hard problem in sw/system development is schema migration without downtime. you can do it by supporting both old and new while you transform old data, then remove the code paths for the old
# 23:08 snarfed FB is good at the availability ("without downtime") part, but awful at removing the old code paths
# 23:08 snarfed that's (imho) the primary cause of aaronpk's "super broken" comment
# 23:09 snarfed anyway, keeping all old code around leaks up above the API and causes problems like this :/
# 23:10 snarfed (obligatory: migration is hard, let's go shopping)
# 23:10 kylewm but this is a feature that was explicitly removed in 2.0 right?
# 23:10 snarfed just read the SO post. are you effing kidding me, you can't look up by username any more?!?!?!?!?
# 23:10 snarfed (and i've seen wizkid on other FB SO q's, he generally knows what he's talking about)
# 23:11 kylewm it's bad news for Bridgy Publish doing any kind of replies/likes/shares of facebook posts :(
# 23:11 kylewm and it also makes it impossible for me to fetch reply context from a facebook post
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# 23:11 snarfed what i *still* don't get is when a bare post id will work and when it won't
# 23:12 snarfed sometimes i think it's consistent to certain post types, but i always find a counterexample
# 23:13 snarfed in other news, i went through FB review for the read_stream permission for a-u and got rejected :(
# 23:14 kylewm but you can just have people generate their own app id like for twitter-atom right?
# 23:14 snarfed and they've explicitly denied it to feed reader use cases before, and talked to press about it, so i didn't bother applying for facebook-atom
# 23:14 snarfed what i find funny is that they explicitly endorse an app that asks you to generate yoru own app key for personal use
# 23:14 GWG KevinMarks_: I'll catch it on the DL
# 23:16 GWG kylewm: Do you know the way there?
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# 23:24 snarfed hey kylewm, i can't see that stephanie rodgers post. would you mind skimming it to see if you can find anything unusual?
# 23:24 snarfed any possible reason that one can't be looked up by id
# 23:26 kylewm which is public and someone we're both friends with
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# 23:26 snarfed kylewm: oh man and that's a pure text post too, no picture or location or link or anything. goddamn.
# 23:28 snarfed supports any wordpress, so it's accessible ish at least
# 23:33 snarfed tantek: current status, 1) KevinMarks_ is on a podcast and needs a new indieweb thing to plug
# 23:33 snarfed 2) looks like FB v2.0 API breaks bridgy publish for some posts…but not all…and we have no way to tell them apart yet :(
# 23:34 tantek mention 10 year anniversary of rel=tag, the distributed tagging standard we developed, which was eventually incorporated into HTML5
# 23:34 tantek we've figured out distriibuted *person* tagging on the IndieWeb
# 23:35 tantek so just as silos like FB, IG, Flickr let you tag people in posts and photos
# 23:35 tantek we have figured out how to do that in your own posts
# 23:35 tantek built on top of h-card and webmention as well
# 23:36 tantek many ways to combine the fundamental building blocks of microformats and webmention
# 23:37 tantek person-tagging is a big deal because 1) you can only do it on silos currently, and 2) this is the first open standards proposal to do so using simple HTML, from one website peer to peer to another
# 23:37 aaronpk tantek is writing a whole blog post, one line of IRC at a time!
# 23:37 tantek and this leads into - you have a sample of it on your own site
# 23:37 kylewm snarfed: so it says you need user_friends (which we have) and also "usage of this edge requires review of your app"
# 23:37 tantek lol aaronpk - hence I quoted Shanley's tweet above asking for that
# 23:38 tantek "text editor that you write in it like a twitter interface"
# 23:38 kylewm we have like a real weird cyrano debergerac situation going on here
# 23:38 tantek is there some place we can listen to the podcast live?
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# 23:39 snarfed kylewm: "review of your app" usually just means to get the perm
# 23:40 snarfed so if we have it, then maybe it theoretically should work
# 23:42 kylewm KevinMarks_: lol you guys were on the same page!
# 23:44 millette speaking of people tagging, I remember foaf - but I forget, what did wordpress offer with its blogroll feature, to tag family and friends?
# 23:44 tantek but that was for describing the relationship, rather than person tagging
# 23:46 tantek KevinMarks_: with indieweb, you choose your own level of tinkering that you want.
# 23:47 GWG Note WordPress disabled blogroll, later links by default a while back
# 23:48 Loqi sharecropping in the context of the IndieWeb is the practice of primarily or exclusively creating/publishing content on silos as opposed to doing so first (or primarily) on your own site, and those that do publish primarily or exclusively on silos are known as sharecroppers https://indiewebcamp.com/sharecropping
# 23:50 GWG tantek: So....telling people what sites you thought were important is unfashionable?
# 23:51 tantek GWG - blogrolls were originally about people, not just "sites"
# 23:51 tantek GWG - having them in a semi-static sidebar became unfashionable
# 23:52 aaronpk isn't that basically a "following" list like how twitter and facebook show it?
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# 23:52 millette with a vocabulary saying if it's family, friend, coworker, etc.
# 23:52 GWG tantek: I usually had a page for them.
# 23:53 tantek and as KevinMarks just demonstrated - quickly falls out of date
# 23:54 tantek of course not that pruning / updating followings etc has gotten much (any?) better
# 23:54 kylewm that'd be a nice browser extension that shows 404 links as crossed out, like wikipedia
# 23:54 millette I have a weird feeling indieweb appeals to old school webbers, but not so popular with the new crowd. I hope I am wrong.
# 23:55 tantek some used it more like Anil - as a way of recommending or framing publishers
# 23:55 tantek millette: depends which old school and which new school you speak of
# 23:55 tantek kylewm: evidence that he hasn't touched it in a while
# 23:56 millette people you used to have blogs, some who handcoded html, don't depend on js for everything, etc.
# 23:57 tantek millette: almost no one hand codes HTML any more. many handcode templates however, which includes some HTML handcoding (typically)
# 23:57 millette As I said before, I was involved with indie/fedweb until 4-5 years ago. It's good to return, but I see reckognise to many names :-)
# 23:57 aaronpk I accept them and show them on aaronparecki.com/mentions along with the others
# 23:57 KevinMarks_ if I send the webmentions for all the HWC people I tagged, will they a) know about it b) show it on their site?
# 23:57 millette yes, templates - some understanding of html required.
# 23:57 tantek millette: did you attend the 2010 Federated Social Web Summit?
# 23:58 tantek curious what you mean by "was involved with indie/fedweb"
# 23:58 millette coming to this channel a last week reminded me of #joiito
# 23:58 tantek hah! yeah - that's probably because KevinMarks and I met on #joiito ;)
# 23:58 millette I was a laconica developper and developped a bunch of little tools (all gone)
# 23:59 tantek so there's some #joiito cultural DNA here, subconsciously at least
# 23:59 tantek millette: did you preserve your own laconica install on your own site and keep your permalinks working?
# 23:59 tantek KevinMarks_: and Joi posts updates on LinkedIn instead of his own site :/