#indiewebcamp 2015-02-14

2015-02-14 UTC
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@Steffenster Dieses IndieWeb klingt gut. Haben wirklich weder @golem noch @t3n bisher darüber berichtet? http://hmans.io/ucm032 (twitter.com/_/status/566387845859119104)
tantek_1, tantek__1, tantek___1, tantek____1 and tantek_____ joined the channel
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tantek_____ ^^^ aaronpk looks like the web irc proxy is holding onto some nicks
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acegiak oh i thought you were just growing a beard
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Loqi acegiak: GWG left you a message 9 hours, 9 minutes ago: Wanted to ask your opinion on some features for Post Kinds.
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tantek_____ re: form-encoding and plural property values eg multiple tag values, would it be useful to develop a generic plural value syntax for any property? Aaronpk kevinmarks karrtikprabhu
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tantek_____ Eg in the fine tradition of csv, tags=red,blue,dumbtagwith\,comma,dumbtagwith\\backslash
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andysylvester.com edited /River4 (+277) (view diff)
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kylewm that way lies madness!
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tantek_____ kylewm but csv is a "proven" technology ;)
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tantek_____ And we can pluralize any property by appending an "s" to the property name right? ;)
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andysylvester.com edited /River4 (+37) "/* Installation information */" (view diff)
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KevinMarks_ csv has evil escaping rules
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kylewm tantek_____: i know you're kidding now, but i can't tell when you *started* kidding :)
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tantek_____ kevinmarks nah I demonstrated all the escaping you need in my example
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andysylvester.com edited /River4 (+79) "/* Installation information */" (view diff)
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tantek_____ Kylewm since you "inspired" the river4 page, and it's open source, could you file a github issue asking for river4 to support reading h-feed directly?
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tantek_____ Or heck, a pull request if you dare ;)
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andysylvester.com edited /River4 (+84) "/* Installation information */" (view diff)
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KevinMarks_ that isn't CSV escaping, that's more sensible
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kylewm pull request would be tricky... https://github.com/scripting/river4/blob/master/opml/river4.opml
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KevinMarks_ o_O
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kylewm I don't think I am comfortable filing that issue; feels overly aggressive/confrontational
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KevinMarks_ you could patch https://github.com/danmactough/node-feedparser
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kylewm KevinMarks_: thanks for this https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/566315778706665472 !
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@kevinmarks Hi @ilyasu - do you know how to map post URLs to Graph API nodes? 'cos it broke in v2.2 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/28337331/facebook-graph-api-find-graph-object-from-post-url (twitter.com/_/status/566315778706665472)
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kylewm KevinMarks++
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Loqi KevinMarks has 80 karma
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KevinMarks_ no response though
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@ChrisAldrich I just installed @WithKnown 0.7.1 "Makeba" release with ease... #indiewebcamp #ftw http://stream.boffosocko.com/2015/i-just-installed-withknown-071-makeba-release-with-ease-indiewebcamp (twitter.com/_/status/566394983599849472)
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KevinMarks_ is there not a chat space on fb, or do they send you to stack overflow?
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KevinMarks_ https://www.facebook.com/groups/fbdevelopers
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Loqi [bridgy] Andy Sylvester replied '@kylewm2 @davewiner @kevinmarks @julien51 @aaronpk I have added links to install notes and public rivers' to a tweet that linked to https://indiewebcamp.com/River4 (https://twitter.com/AndySylvester99/status/566397135612948480)
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acegiak whays the irssi command to see a list of online users in a channel?
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pdurbin acegiak: /names
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kylewm KevinMarks_: that's an interesting thought
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snarfed KevinMarks_: they used to have one, but i think now they send you to SO
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snarfed like many google dev projects, and many other cos
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KevinMarks_ Jesse Stay is an admin there, he could eb good to ask
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acegiak pdurbin: rhanks i wouldnt have worked that out on my own
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kylewm huh, got a (nonsense?) answer on SO http://stackoverflow.com/a/28510863/682648
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snarfed lol
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snarfed looks like spray and pray for bounties
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KevinMarks_ other person to ping maybe: https://twitter.com/sicross
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gRegor` WordPress people: I had a friend install the IndieWeb plugin and it's working, but not showing the author. Also links to bridgy instead of the profile. Is there something specific to the theme?
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gRegor` Example: http://girlvsplanet.com/2014/04/return-to-amys-baking-company/
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snarfed gRegor`: they definitely installed the indieweb plugin, and not just the webmention one?
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snarfed that's what it usually looks like without semantic-linkbacks
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gRegor` Checking
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gRegor` I might try to have her stop by here rather than play messenger :)
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snarfed yeah remote debugging is no fun
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@Andresinmp POSSE - IndieWebCamp http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE and. Federation? #fediverse (twitter.com/_/status/566403304687927296)
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gRegor` No semantic linkbacks plugin installed
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kylewm I tried asking a question in that fb group; people seem to respond pretty quickly to each other in there
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kylewm although, just realized it's 5pm on a Friday, oops
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snarfed gRegor`: she needs either the indieweb plugin (it's a bundle) or webmention and semantic linkbacks plugins
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snarfed beer o'clock!
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gRegor` I was unclear reading on the IndieWeb plugin if it actually installs a bundle of plugins, or it was a helper to install the plugins.
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GWG snarfed: Indieweb is no longer a bundle
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GWG It is now a helper
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tantek is that like a wizard?
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GWG tantek: WordPress is somewhat limited in this regard
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tantek I don't even understand the regard.
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GWG There is no built in dependency functionality. So one plugin can't help you install others without some additional coding
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tantek kylewm: strange, what's overly aggressive/confrontational about requesting support of an open standard?
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GWG So, Pfefferle was bundling multiple plugins, which created a problem in maintenance.
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snarfed heh ok, i'm behind the times, i defer to GWG
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GWG So, he added an existing third party library to do the plugin installing. But it isn't exactly the best.
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kylewm tantek: dave's pretty vocal about indieweb being anti-RSS and trying to reinvent the wheel or whatever, I don't think my filing an issue requesting that he change his product to support our replacement for his standard would be very friendly
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tantek kylewm: I suppose I am being hopeful that he wouldn't view *additional* support as any kind of a threat
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GWG kylewm: Does being for one thing make me against another?
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tantek GWG, it does not. that's the point.
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tantek see also: artificial dichotomy
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tantek for example, RSS supporter julien51 is also highly interested in supporting h-feed / h-entry in Superfeedr
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tantek kylewm in terms of "reinvent the wheel", simplification is an inevitable evolutionary path in technological development. it happens to everything and everyone.
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KevinMarks_ supporting h-feed in feed parsing libraries seems liek the best way
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tantek Kevinmarks what is feed parsing libraries?
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GWG snarfed: Pfefferle switched to using tgm plugin activation which was actually designed for theme dependencies. So it isn't perfect
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tantek hmm looks like aaronpk fixed that particular trigger for Loqi
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Loqi is done
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tantek apparently
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tantek kylewm does river4 support /Atom for example?
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kylewm no clue, I think it supports whatever node-feedparser supports
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tantek and I believe I've heard others (likely even here) say it's to the advantage of feed readers to be quite liberal in what they consume
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tantek what is node-feedparser?
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GWG There is only one scenario that I can think of where I would want a separate feed file and it is not the best one.
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "node-feedparser" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=node-feedparser&summary=%28prompted+by+tantek+https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-02-13/line/1423877145600%29
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tantek GWG, I have a separate non-discoverable Atom feed for my most recent 3 *articles* that I created specifically at the request of planet.mozilla people
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GWG I am trying to save mobile data. So any way to just download headlines and not full text and images would save me in the long run.
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tantek GWG, what is the headline of a tweet?
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KevinMarks_ could Loqi put {stub} <dfn> x</dfn> is inot the template
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tantek what is start a page?
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Loqi https://indiewebcamp.com/start_a_page
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GWG Tantek, I was thinking of feed reading of sites that post articles, not notes. Also, mobile can be slow.
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tantek GWG, are you saying on mobile you would only want to read articles and not notes?
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kylewm tantek: the peaceful resolution I'm hoping for with @dwiner is that he recognizes indieweb as a plurality of approaches, where any personal publishing mechanism is welcome...i guess i'm not really up for pushing for more than that
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kevinmarks.com created /node-feedparser (+195) "(prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-02-13/line/1423877145600)" (view diff)
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tantek kylewm: I suppose my point is that we've asked any/every tool/service to support the minimal formats/protocols we've been developing here, and I don't see any reason to special case any one open source project over another.
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tantek I think we should always just ask nicely, and then document the result.
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tantek Purely factual and informative.
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GWG No, I am saying it is the articles I'd want to scan the summary of and not load it all till I decided I was interested. A note I'd probably want the whole thing
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tantek And that way every open source project self-selects how involved they want to be with the indieweb community
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kylewm tantek: i guess I don't really like that approach in general until we have some well-tested h-feed parsing libraries they can use
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tantek kylewm: a-ha now that's worth exploring
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Loqi [bridgy] Dave Winer ☮ replied '@AndySylvester99 @kylewm2 @kevinmarks @julien51 @aaronpk -- how about including a link to the river format spec -- riverjs.org' to a tweet that linked to https://indiewebcamp.com/River4 (https://twitter.com/davewiner/status/566407005225906176)
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KevinMarks_ so I was going to write up the 'what are bits needd fro a feed rreader' discussion from HWC this week - is that best done on the wiki, or as a blogpost
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KevinMarks_ though given my typing at the moment this may not be great
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tantek KevinMarks a reader of what era? early 2000s? or 2010s?
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KevinMarks_ a reader of today
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tantek the "feed reader" framing typically implies early 2000s thinking which is way behind the integrated reading experiences of today's silos.
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tantek a reader of today wouldn't bother with being framed as a *feed* reader
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snarfed before asking river4 to support h-feed, i wonder if a smaller symbolic step would be just to ask dave to manage to log into the wiki
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KevinMarks_ a reader then
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snarfed as opposed to asking others to edit it via tweet
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andysylvester.com edited /River4 (+81) (view diff)
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KevinMarks_ it's a PESOS form of tanteking
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tantek snarfed - given that asking others to edit it via a tweet is more work than editing directly, I'm ok leaving it as is
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tantek there should already be sufficient laziness incentive to directly edit
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snarfed tantek: true for the nth edit, but not for the first
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snarfed (setting up indieauth etc)
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snarfed and also, it'd be a gesture of good faith
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snarfed which i'm not sure we've seen yet
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tantek snarfed - sure - I'd say even before that, inviting folks to IRC seems to be a successful pattern
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snarfed KevinMarks_++
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Loqi KevinMarks has 81 karma
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@AndySylvester99 @davewiner @kylewm2 @kevinmarks @julien51 @aaronpk Done, added to https://indiewebcamp.com/River4 (twitter.com/_/status/566410650750963712)
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snarfed sure! any of those might be good before the feature request
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tantek snarfed, OTOH, having dave and others tweeting a bunch of links back/forth to the indiewebcamp wiki is also not a bad thing
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KevinMarks_ yep
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tantek frankly, I'd rather prioritize dave ownhisnotes (and @-replies) on his own site and start POSSEing everything to Twitter rather than Tweeting directly
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tantek editing / contributing to the wiki is definitely a nice community thing, but it's also not a necessity of being "indieweb" per se
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gRegor` snarfed, kylewm: Bridgy should find this and send a webmention, yes? https://twitter.com/gRegorLove/status/566405024465846273
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snarfed tantek: it is much less work than owning his notes though
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@gRegorLove @girlvsplanet Have a test reply. http://girlvsplanet.com/2014/04/return-to-amys-baking-company/ (twitter.com/_/status/566405024465846273)
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KevinMarks_ I think his stated itch is interesting - supporting webmention woudl give him a way to do it
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snarfed gRegor`: no, it's not in reply to a tweet of hers
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gRegor` Aha. I thought it checked replies too.
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KevinMarks_ "let's say you want to make a great blog post editor, but you don't want to have to write a whole blogging system"
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gRegor` One of these days I'll remember all the ins and outs. :)
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snarfed gRegor`: hmm. maybe i don't follow. but the answer is probably https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/51 :P
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gRegor` Yep.
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KevinMarks_ http://scripting.com/2015/02/13/doorsAndExtraBedrooms.html
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tantek kylewm: getting back to your point about " well-tested h-feed parsing libraries "
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snarfed hey aaronpk, i'm looking at the overloading of the micropub location param
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snarfed looks like for h=entry it's expected to be a geo uri, and for h=event it's a url?
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snarfed or should i distinguish based on scheme?
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tantek kylewm: what h-feed parsing library did/do you use in /Woodwind ?
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snarfed (https://indiewebcamp.com/micropub#h-event )
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kylewm tantek: mf2util
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snarfed mf2util++
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Loqi mf2util has 1 karma
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snarfed only 1?!?
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snarfed travesty
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tantek what is mf2util?
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kylewm lol
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Loqi mf2util is a Microformats 2 utility for Python, commonly used to extract common features in comments and reply-contexts https://indiewebcamp.com/mf2util
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snarfed damn straight
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kylewm awkward wording is awkward
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tantek kylewm: presumably you had to build understanding of parsing h-feed / h-entry semantics in an abstraction above mf2util right?
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GWG snarfed: You looking at my location issue?
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kylewm not sure I follow the question, it gives back entries https://kylewm.com/services/mf2util?url=http://tantek.com
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snarfed GWG: you saw that i implemented it and closed it, right?
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tantek kylewm: oh interesting, it takes care of finding the first h-feed and then getting its h-entrys?
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gRegor` GWG: Is there a way to have WP not mark bridgy wm as spam automatically? Or just have to approve enough of them for it to learn?
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kylewm yeah, it does that and runs (most of) /authorship
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kylewm and does some nasty datetime parsing
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GWG Haven't checked since 4...see it now
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tantek kylewm: that's pretty sweet. though it seems to be mishandling the relative URL for "url" of "author"
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GWG gRegor`: Yes. There is.
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KevinMarks_ so, to integrate with , say, Universal feed parser, we would take that and rename thinsg to match the exising structure
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Loqi [bridgy] Andy Sylvester replied '@davewiner @kylewm2 @kevinmarks @julien51 @aaronpk Done, added to indiewebcamp.com/River4' to a tweet that linked to https://indiewebcamp.com/River4 (https://twitter.com/AndySylvester99/status/566410650750963712)
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GWG I sent a pull request to Pfefferle about two weeks ago for a whitelist in Semantic Linkbacks.
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GWG He has been busy.
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kylewm huh, you're right, I'll have to look into that
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GWG So, I wrote a feature to address that exact issue
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gRegor` GWG: How?
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GWG gRegor`: With a domain whitelist. So you can tell it to always accept Bridgy comments
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gRegor` I don't see that option.
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GWG gRegor`: He hasn't had time to accept the pull request.
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GWG So, you may have to wait
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gRegor` Oh, so there isn't an option. Sorry, I meant "now"
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tantek kylewm I'm curious how https://kylewm.com/services/mf2util?url=http://tantek.com gets a name & photo for author, but not URL
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kylewm ah-ha, tantek it's https://github.com/tommorris/mf2py/issues/30
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GWG gRegor`: No. But I thought you should know it was coming
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KevinMarks_ hm. following dave's thinking is instructive. http://scripting.com/2015/01/07/sourceCodeForContent.html
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tantek kylewm - how much "special knowledge" was needed to built mf2util ?
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KevinMarks_ he doesn't think of HTML as a source at all
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gRegor` GWG: Thanks! How difficult is it to customize the way likes are displayed?
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kylewm tantek: you mean like domain specific knowledge of what properties constitute an h-feed and h-entry?
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GWG How do you want them displayed?
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tantek KevinMarks - I disagree - starting with from the very beginning. Markdown was always supposed to be *readable* as plain text as-is, not "as source"
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tantek kylewm: yes
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kylewm lots?
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tantek kylewm - all such "domain specific knowledge of what properties constitute an h-feed and h-entry" that you had to guess/add/determine above and beyond what's in the h-feed and h-entry specs likely indicates holes in those specs
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kylewm argh, I've gotta run, sorry!
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kylewm nothing much comes to mind that was not in the spec
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kylewm but i'll give it some thought
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tantek thus perhaps even as a prerequisite to robust libraries, we should robustify the spec
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tantek kylewm: thanks. I definitely want any developer to be able to start from the spec and create something interoperable.
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tantek and that's reasonable homework for us (robustify spec, better libraries) before we go asking / filing issues in user-level open source projects to add support for h-feed, h-entry
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GWG gRegor`: Displaying of likes was my first Indieweb project
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gRegor` GWG: It might be a theme issue. See how they're appearing here: http://girlvsplanet.com/2015/02/working-out-at-koko-fitclub/
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GWG What is wrong with them?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "wrong with them" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=wrong+with+them&summary=%28prompted+by+GWG+https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-02-13/line/1423879023526%29
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GWG They look like comments.
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gRegor` They look different than the other webmentions. Square avatar, date underneath instead of beside
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GWG Not specifically the theme. But it is a theming issue.
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KevinMarks_ mf2util is interesting in that it only looks for known properties - in effect it is a mf1 from mf2 model
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GWG By default, only comments have images.
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KevinMarks_ eg it only takes name/photo/url for author, not the full hcard
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gRegor` Well, they're being shown on that link above :)
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GWG Semantic Linkbacks changes the default, but the theme may not be styling them correctly
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GWG You could try my plugin.
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GWG It replaces the comment handler.
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gRegor` It's not my site so I don't want to do too much messing around.
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gRegor` I think something is just generating some odd HTML, so maybe I can fix it in the theme.
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GWG I may be dismantling my plugin though
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gRegor` Unfortunately I think the WordPress experience is still lacking for people new to this.
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GWG I would look at how specific the CSS is for comments vs pingbacks.
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tantek KevinMarks - Markdown is not source code - Markdown is readable plain text
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tantek any use of Markdown that is more "source code" than "readable plain text" is a violation of the primary Markdown design principle
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KevinMarks_ yes, his framing is off. HTML is source code.
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gRegor` Initially she only had Webmention installed, so it was showing "from bridgy" an dno author information. When she looked into Semantic Linkbacks she saw the RDFa / Schema stuff and got scared off because it seemed to involve difficult changes
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tantek that's not to say that programmers are actually extending Markdown into becoming ugly plain text
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tantek and thus more source code like
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KevinMarks_ yep
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gRegor` I looked into it and confirmed Semantic Linkbacks just needed to be installed and no other config
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tantek gRegor`: whoa, why does Semantic Linkbacks generate ugly RDFa / Schema stuff?
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GWG gRegor`: That is mostly a matter of extensions. It isn't being used.
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tantek and yes that experience should be documented somewhere
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tantek "she saw the RDFa / Schema stuff and got scared off because it seemed to involve difficult changes"
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gRegor` It doesn't. I'm referring to this: https://github.com/pfefferle/wordpress-semantic-linkbacks#how-to-add-rdfa-or-schemaorg-support
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gRegor` And honestly I don't even know what that section means
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KevinMarks_ so move it to a separate page?
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tantek if something unnecessary is in the readme is scaring people away, that's a good example of something to move to a separate page
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gRegor` GWG: Understood, just letting you know what her experience was. She's a programmer, though doesn't do much web. She found that GH link via the wiki and was put off momentarily (until I told her it was a "just install" thing)
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tantek yup. this is a good reason to keep readmes small
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gRegor` I will try to capture some of this on the wiki tonight.
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tantek thanks gRegor`
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gRegor` I have access to her WP install now, so it's nice that I can see these plugins in action.
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GWG I have held off on sending more pull requests for a bit. As snarfed discovered lasr night, I am a messy coder.
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gRegor` It was kind of a lark. She told me she was moving her site back to WP and I was like "Hey, try installing this IndieWeb plugin"
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gRegor` Glad we got it working now, though :)
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GWG My indenting drives Pfefferle crazy.
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GWG gRegor`: If you need any help, happy to try.
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GWG I wanted to rewrite the documentation.
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snarfed ok all, the wordpress micropub plugin now supports the vast majority of micropub params. new ones include h-event, category, in-reply-to, like, repost, rsvp, and location
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snarfed i'm sticking a fork in it and moving on for now. please try it out and feel free to ping/file issues!
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gRegor` snarfed: What about /chicken?
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snarfed lol no
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KevinMarks_ back to WP from what?
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gRegor` GWG: Perhaps you could expound on the reasoning for WP Webmention plugin and Semantic Linkbacks being separate plugins, if they're both required. I'm not clear on that.
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gRegor` KevinMarks_: Postachio
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snarfed ooh expounding is my favorite
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gRegor` :P
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GWG gRegor`: Required for?
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KevinMarks_ what is postachio?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "postachio" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=postachio&summary=%28prompted+by+KevinMarks_+https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-02-13/line/1423880021988%29
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KevinMarks_ tanteks
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GWG Semantic Linkbacks does not actually require webmentions
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gRegor` I thought it was on the wiki
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gRegor` http://indiewebcamp.com/Getting_Started_on_WordPress lists "Required" for both plugins.
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GWG Yes, for a full Indieweb implementation
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KevinMarks_ semantic linkbacks are useful in their own right for better markup
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KevinMarks_ ie h-entry etc
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GWG But they do not require each other
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gRegor` Installing Webmention without Semantic Linkbacks wasn't a good expeirence, either. Got webmentions from bridgy and they didn't display the author information, just comment and linked back to bridgy.appspot.com instead of the source URL
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KevinMarks_ so that they are parsable if someon esle sends a ebmention for them
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GWG Semantic Linkbacks will work on pingbacks
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GWG The idea is that Semantic Linkbacks enhances Linkbacks of all types.
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GWG Wordpress Webmentions is the plumbing for webmentions only
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acegiak GWG: hey, what features were you thinking about?
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GWG It took me a while to get the rationale.
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GWG Acegiak, read author and picture from source URL. Hide parts of response box based on type.
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GWG Acegiak, full rsvp support.
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acegiak don't hide parts of response box without multikind posts
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GWG gRegor`: You may have noticed there is a simple design philosophy for many Indieweb plugins
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GWG Acegiak, if it is based on selection, selecting any applicable kind would show it.
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acegiak I think unix design philosphy "do one thing and to it well" is always a good way to go
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gregorlove.com created /Postach.io (+153) "stub" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com created /postachio (+24) "r" (view diff)
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gRegor` What is postachio?
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Loqi Postach.io is a static site generator powered by Evernote https://indiewebcamp.com/postachio
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gRegor` GWG: Thanks, I think I understand it better now.
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GWG Acegiak, I added settings to Semantic Linkbacks
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gRegor` It would be nice if WP had dependencies
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acegiak full RSVP and checkin support are good ideas
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snarfed "powered by evernote" ahahahahahaha
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acegiak gRegor`: agreed
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gRegor` But perhaps the wiki needs something like: If you want to use Bridgy on Wordpress 1) Install Webmention 2) Install Semantic Linkbacks
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snarfed man, i'm really behind. so the indieweb plugin is straight up dead?!?
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gRegor` No
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gRegor` It's a helper to install the others, I think?
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snarfed ah ok
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snarfed gRegor`: i'd s/bridgy/indie replies and bridgy/ in that language, but otherwise lgtm
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gRegor` "The Indieweb Plugin is a plugin that helps you install various Indieweb-themed plugins. It is designed for newcomers to quickly get up and running." if http://indiewebcamp.com/Getting_Started_on_WordPress#Indieweb_Plugin is up to date
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gRegor` is tired. It took far too long to parse that, snarfed. Haha
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GWG gRegor`: You should see the long discussion tickets on dependencies
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gRegor` Nah, I'm good. :)
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gRegor` I don't need anything to drive me to drink. It's Friday!
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GWG Snarfed, gRegor` : I spent a lot of time on the Indieweb plugin copy.
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GWG It used to say it was the Indieweb version of Jetpack
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acegiak GWG: with the read author and picture from URL I wouldn't do it automatically but have a button to fetch it
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acegiak cause, for instance, my reader populates those fields for me
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acegiak you could even fetch the title that way if you wanted
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acegiak GWG: for checkin would we just use the wordpress geodata?
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acegiak so we could just add a checkin kind straight away?
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kevinmarks.com created /reader-components (+1996) "Created page with "=Reader Components= A [[reader]] describes a common user experience model of a feed of updates compiled from multiple sources. In order to construct this, there are various compo..."" (view diff)
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KevinMarks_ first pass at this, I'll iterate with existing things that provide the component
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KevinMarks_ do edit/refactor if I have missed things
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acegiak how many people are hosting their site on machine where intensive resource use isn't a problem?
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acegiak cause I'm thinking that whisperfollow isn't much use to most people because it can pull a lot of resources
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GWG acegiak: That was what I meant by automatically. A button to fill it in.
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GWG acegiak: As for check-in, yes. But geodata doesn't do venue. I added a field for that to my attempt at a Geolocation plugin.
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GWG acegiak: How intensive? I run an instance of TT-RSS on a $20 a year server
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acegiak GWG: are you able to view performance etc? it would be interesting to see how it goes
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GWG I am. I have room to spare.
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acegiak ok. I think the problem on mine mioght have been the fact htat I'm not clearing old records out of hte whispers database so it was taking ages to check for uniqueness when aggregating
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KevinMarks Acegiak do you keep the whole entry in one table? Could you have a separate table of the URL or hash?
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ben_thatmust_ hey all
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acegiak KevinMarks__: I'm already storing the permalink in the table with the entry, is a separate table just for that reference going to be quicker?
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acegiak genuine question I don't know much about how DBs are optimised
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ben_thatmust_ acegiak. what type of db
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ben_thatmust_ sorry just read that convo back
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ben_thatmust_ I've never looked at whisper opt.
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acegiak ben_thatmust_: mysql
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acegiak it's a wordpress plugin that acts as a feedreader
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acegiak and it's admittedly pretty hacked together
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acegiak cause I started it when I was first starting wordpress development
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gRegor` pfefferle, GWG: Have you already seen/addressed this support request? Just poking around and noticed it. https://wordpress.org/support/topic/how-to-display-facebook-likes-twitter-favorites
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GWG First time I've seen it
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GWG I just sent a reply
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gRegor` GWG++
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Loqi GWG has 71 karma
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gRegor` Is Webmention for (Threaded) Comments a plugin under development, or is it released? I'd like to add a link to the wiki
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gregorlove.com edited /Getting_Started_on_WordPress (+40) "/* Send and receive responses with your site */ required + optional sub-sections to make it more explicit" (view diff)
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GWG gRegor`: It is Github only right now.
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GWG gRegor`: I meant to ask pfefferle if he would consider merging it into the main webmention plugin.
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gRegor` Ok. Mind linking the repo in that section? ^
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GWG gRegor`: Semantic Comments is optional
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gregorlove.com edited /Getting_Started_on_WordPress (+5) "/* Send and receive responses with your site */ Semantic Comments optional" (view diff)
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GWG I know snarfed questioned it earlier. I'm trying to encourage consolidation
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GWG If parts of Semantic Comments fold into Semantic Linkbacks, then the rest should be part of a WordPress theme as style elements.
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david.shanske.com edited /Getting_Started_on_WordPress (+65) "/* Optional Plugins */" (view diff)
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david.shanske.com edited /Getting_Started_on_WordPress (+40) "/* Publish to Your Site */" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /Getting_Started_on_WordPress (+274) "/* See Also */ FAQ section" (view diff)
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ben_thatmust_ acegiak in mysql you would get any benefit putting it into another table
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gRegor` "For more information on these plugins, visit the WordPress page on the Indiewebcamp wiki. or click the individual plugin links below." on that page should probably be updated. I think it can just be remove actually.
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gRegor` /WordPress does not have more information about those plugins
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ben_thatmust_ s/would/wouldn't
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Loqi ben_thatmust_ meant to say: acegiak in mysql you wouldn't get any benefit putting it into another table
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GWG gRegor`: I moved it to WordPress_Plugins
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GWG The page got too big
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gRegor` Hm? I mean the first line in this section: http://indiewebcamp.com/Getting_Started_on_WordPress#Plugins
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david.shanske.com edited /Getting_Started_on_WordPress (-19) "/* Plugins */" (view diff)
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gRegor` Looks like the wiki supports subpages. What do you think about moving /Webmention_Plugin to /WordPress/Webmention_Plugin ?
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gRegor` Or do we want to avoid subpages?
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GWG People seemed to be against subpages
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GWG I forget the rationale.
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gRegor` ok
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gRegor` I think the FAQ I added captures the earlier discussion. At least the specific issue my friend Sheryl ran into
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GWG gRegor`: Appreciate it. Every time someone has a problem, I try to edit it
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acegiak GWG: how do I add a new kind?
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acegiak I want to add "wants/desires/wishes for", "listened to" and "played game"
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GWG Externally added, or built into the plugin?
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GWG I probably should add support for add-ons.
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acegiak I wasjust gonna mod hte plugin
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GWG Oh
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acegiak maybe submita pull if you like those types
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GWG Well, I have to rearrange some things to make a multi-kind feature easier to work with.
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GWG But...there are a few places you'd need to edit.
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GWG There is the Kind Strings and Verbs functions
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GWG So, you are thinking a scrobbling type functionality?
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GWG Listened to is an Audio Post.
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GWG So, that one was one I had considered
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GWG Wants and played...I'm not sure what the type name is.
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GWG A gaming type is interesting though. But we don't have anything for that in the wiki, but it makes sense
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acegiak it's the same as scrobbling really
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GWG acegiak: I was thinking that
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GWG Before you start hacking, give me a few minutes. I'm going to push some changes to the repository. Little reorganization.
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acegiak ok sure, I'll pull and fiddle when you're done
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GWG acegiak: You made me realize some things are in the wrong place
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acegiak haha ok
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metatropolis !karma Loqi
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Loqi Loqi has 334 karma
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metatropolis Loqi++
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Loqi Loqi has 335 karma
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GWG acegiak: I have a question for you
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GWG How does you distinguish between audio you are posting, and audio you are listening to?
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GWG I'm thinking that an audio post without an external URL is a locally hosted piece of audio.
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acegiak GWG: that sounds about right?
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GWG acegiak: Okay. New types coming.
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acegiak coool
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GWG Still having trouble with the other two
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GWG In terms of conceptualizing
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acegiak which two?
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acegiak listened to and played game?
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GWG Listened to would be an Audio post.
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GWG Played Game and Wanted/Wished
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KevinMarks__ Lots of people host their original audio elsewhere though
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KevinMarks__ Soundcloud, Internet archive, google drive
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GWG KevinMarks__: Let me rephrase. An audio post with a response URL is listening, an Audio post without one would be posting audio.
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KevinMarks__ That makes sense
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KevinMarks__ How does huffduffer.com mark it up?
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GWG So, rather than two types, one type.
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GWG What we don't have is a game playing type in the wiki. So, that's new territory.
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GWG acegiak: I'm giving you some hooks if you wanted to write extra terms outside of the plugin as well.
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acegiak GWG: I thought that they would all just be different kinds utilising the response_url and response_title fields?
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GWG acegiak: Wants/desires/wishes for is the one I'm having trouble with.
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GWG acegiak: I'm adding the others. I was just saying an audio post can both be a response to audio and a post with audio.
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acegiak oh, the example is here:
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acegiak http://acegiak.net/desires/
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acegiak it's my solution to people always asking what i want for birthday/christmas
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metatropolis listening = verb, audio post = noun
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GWG So, a wishlist.
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acegiak yeah
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metatropolis should they be handled the same?
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GWG That one I think needs a wiki page
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acegiak I'm just spitballing but you could potentially have something like an RSVP response that is "purchased for" but only visible to people who are authenticated as NOT the original poster
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GWG The way I'm thinking of it, metatropolis, is that an audio post with a in-reply-to is listening.
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acegiak let us know when you've pushed, GWG
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metatropolis ah,it links the listener’s post to the remote source, then.
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acegiak yeah
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metatropolis (or local source)
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GWG Well, if the link is in the e-content, it would be different than if it was marked up as in-reply-to.
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GWG I'd better finish this edit so I can write something in the wiki. I don't know what other people think, but this works.
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acegiak works for the moment at least
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KevinMarks__ The activity stream "played" verb was supposed to cover audio, video and games
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KevinMarks__ Though verbs are out of fashion now
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GWG Speaking of verbs.
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acegiak I don't mind verbs but those three are all very different actions
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GWG The slug I'm using for playing games is 'game'. The verb is 'Played'. What are the singular and plural versions? 'Game' and 'Games' seem off somehow.
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acegiak ill have to see it in action before i can give valuable feedback
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GWG I can change the terms later.
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kylewm KevinMarks: I'm curious about your comment from earlier that mf2util only looks for known properties; i'm not sure in what sense you could look for unknown properties?
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GWG acegiak: Pushed. I have to go push an update to mf2_s as well.
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KevinMarks Well, mf2 means you can get properties by default
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kylewm actually I think mf2util does almost exactly the same thing as https://github.com/indieweb/php-comments +/- the h-feed stuff
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KevinMarks Eg the author hCard can pick up email
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GWG acegiak: Still a bit broken. Working on it.
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acegiak GWG: yeah noticed the "unexpected output before headers" error on activation
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GWG I pushed what I had so far for you to see
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GWG I'm running through the tests now
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GWG I'm not sure where the unexpected output is coming from.
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acegiak I'm kinda coming and going to and from chat while fixing my hair and makeup for dinner tonight so take your time
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GWG I'm working on the display. I didn't code for a few scenarios.
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KevinMarks Right, kylewm they are both assuming that only some properties exist. Not saying this is bad, just interesting
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KevinMarks It's valentine's night in Oz, a
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GWG acegiak: Another push
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acegiak KevinMarks: and all blackwool wants to talk about is her indieweb documentary
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KevinMarks Hope we're not spoiling your date
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GWG https://tiny.n9n.us/2015/02/14/test-listen/
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GWG Okay, that renders now
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acegiak KevinMarks: well we've OFFICIALLY moved our valentines date day to next weekend
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acegiak but we're still in the city tonight so we're going out anyway
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GWG acegiak: It is 2:30 in the morning here
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GWG I was going to work on something else, but Post Kinds, after these changes, needs some more love and attention.
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acegiak GWG: maybe work on sleep? LO
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acegiak s/LO/:P/
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Loqi acegiak meant to say: GWG: maybe work on sleep? :P
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GWG I'm probably breaking my recent...don't commit to a repository after 2AM rule.
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acegiak lol
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GWG acegiak: Either way, I think I will go sleep for a bit.
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GWG Feel free to comment when you have a chance. I moved a bunch of things around. You've made me think I need to comment the code better.
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tantek it's notes like this that stoke my itch to implement reposts/retweets on my own site: https://twitter.com/benwerd/status/566310815905505280
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@benwerd Just a reminder that you can hire us to make software for you, or to tailor Known for your needs: https://withknown.com/consulting/ (twitter.com/_/status/566310815905505280)
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acegiak GWG: good plan
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GWG acegiak: Commenting the code, or going to bed?
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kylewm GWG: coding sleepy is fine, but document sober/awake :)
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GWG kylewm: Haven't you heard the expression, do not operate heavy machinery?
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tantek except with an anti-gravity lift?
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KevinMarks__ Wasn't there an empirical measurement that code committed late at night used more global variables?
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GWG I just hate thinking I've come up with something and then asking myself in the morning what the heck I was thinking.
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GWG So, tonight I decided that an audio post with in-reply-to indicates Listening, as a way of addressing acegiak's scrobbling needs.
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GWG Tomorrow I may think this was not a good idea
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GWG I'd better go to bed before I start thinking about music listening metadata.
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GWG I hate it when I get thinking and cannot get my brain to shut down.
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GWG Night
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tantek late night is a good time for /wikifying :)
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KevinMarks__ Also a good time to write tests
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Blackwool hi all! not sure if i met any of you when i was on here the other day?
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KevinMarks_ hello again
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KevinMarks_ US will be mostly asleep now; EU will be waking up
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Blackwool Hullo again! :)
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Blackwool Ah yes, ok
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Blackwool well, perhaps you have time to give me your thoughts on something?
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Blackwool (unless you're planning on being asleep in the near future!)
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KevinMarks_ no, ask away
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Blackwool thanks! :) so the biggest hurdle i have with this pitch (aside from it being due on monday) is that all the advice i've been given is "they won't want to fund the filming happening outside of australia"
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Blackwool and "they will prefer an australian main character"
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Blackwool both of which are challenging as most of the central players in the group are in the US or EU
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Blackwool so i'm trying to come up with creative solutions, any thoughts?
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KevinMarks_ it is a bit hard to film anyway; you'll need to be creative
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Blackwool true also
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KevinMarks_ 'cos it's mostly websites and people staring at screens
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Blackwool haha, i guess so, but hey, i'm a documentarian, i can make anything look fun :P
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Blackwool I think they are going to want me to choose a person or a handful of people and make them the "story" aspect
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Blackwool to make it relatable as well as informative
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KevinMarks_ you could get people to shoot themselves, or use videochat. we can shoot you b-roll of SF or whatever
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acegiak tantek: any plans on being down under again ever? :P
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Blackwool i was thinking of something like that actually! seems kinda appropriate
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@dkreuz @Steffenster ich programmiere kompatible Komponenten, aktuell Webmention-Endpoint, will mit meiner Website auf Stufe 1 kommen und so was. (twitter.com/_/status/566538023538819072)
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KartikPrabhu i don't see why an Australian can't play an American. for instance Russel Crowe ;)
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KevinMarks_ hah
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Blackwool KartikPrabhu, haha, true that :P
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KevinMarks_ we can use Hyperlapse to give you moody steadicam-alikes
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KartikPrabhu Russel Crowe could play a mean aaronpk maybe
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@dkreuz @Steffenster Mit @_yoyod hatte ich vor einiger Zeit ganz ähnliche Gedanken ;) #indieweb setzt schön auf Webtechnologien. (twitter.com/_/status/566538578105475072)
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Blackwool KevinMarks_, hmm! good thought
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KevinMarks_ you will get compared to http://buy.indiegamethemovie.com/
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Blackwool thats okay, i don't mind that
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KevinMarks_ which was a greta piece of work
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Blackwool this is only meant to be a 30 minute piece
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Blackwool agreed, good film
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Blackwool hence i don't mind the comparison :)
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Blackwool but also, i think my style will probably be a bit different, based on how i usually make stuff
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Blackwool acegiak just suggested a remote controlled camera drone that i can operate via the net...that sounds pretty neat
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KevinMarks_ heh
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Blackwool when is the next indie web camp event?
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KevinMarks_ Eddie Codel has done some drone stuff
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Blackwool oooh, neat
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KevinMarks_ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uf9rrskAV-A
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Blackwool I guess my other question then is, I'm looking for a list of potentially interested people so that I can give an indication of that in my application
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KevinMarks_ next iwc is cambridge, thttp://indiewebcamp.com/2015/h
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Blackwool neat, that looks pretty cool
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KevinMarks_ http://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Cambridge
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Blackwool ok, well that one is probably a bit close, but there's heaps throughout the year
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Blackwool which would you say is most significant?
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KevinMarks_ the MIT and Edinburgh are most advanced at the moment
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KevinMarks_ plus we have the HWC every fortnight
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Blackwool ah, cool, ok
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Blackwool do you think people will be keen/have time to be in the film?
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KevinMarks_ I think quite a few will
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KevinMarks_ you can tell from the talks we've shot that we like showing off about it
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Blackwool yeah! its great! it's very helpful for research! :)
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Blackwool KevinMarks_, i'd really like to have a chat with the Indie Web Camp founders, Tantek, Aaron and Amber, should i just try emailing them?
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Blackwool KevinMarks_, also, i had a listen to your ABC radio national interview, it was great! really informative
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@dkreuz @Steffenster Ich will kein PHP können ;), aber die meiste IndieWeb-Software ist darin geschrieben und vieles davon habe ich verstanden. (twitter.com/_/status/566550451165089792)
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@dkreuz @Steffenster Ist mehr ein konsequentes Anwenden / Programmieren der IndieWeb-Standards / -Konventionen. (twitter.com/_/status/566550857509253120)
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Blackwool KevinMarks_, hey, do you think you'd be up for being in this doco? I ideally want to focus on no more than three people, and you, Tantek, Amber and Benwerd seem to be doing lots of talks and interviews
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Blackwool just based on whats on the videos section of the indie web camp site
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acegiak so i have two entries on acegiak.net with the same phone number. one is a tel:// link and the other is a sms:// link and i feel like its a weird ux grey area?
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@hmans Roses are red Violets are blue Send me a Webmention And maybe I'll HTTP GET you (twitter.com/_/status/566594116784779265)
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GWG yawns
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GWG So much for sleep. Back to coding Post Kinds, I guess
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@Indietyp RT @hmans: Roses are red Violets are blue Send me a Webmention And maybe I'll HTTP GET you (twitter.com/_/status/566597122255241216)
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LukasRos Hello IndieWeb-folks! I’ve started hacking on something that involves IndieAuth, Micropub and App.net - let’s see how this turns out ...
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@_sohalt RT @hmans: If you ever find yourself implementing IndieWeb, build the receiving part first, sending later. (twitter.com/_/status/566605456895139840)
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LukasRos The 60 second code validity for IndieAuth service is probably a good security measure, but it takes manual testing a bit difficult. Or maybe my debug tools are not good enough.
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GWG !tell acegiak Another push.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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GWG I'm started to get worried about feature creep.
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tantek !tell Blackwool Would be great to chat! Don't forget the fourth co-founder of IndieWebCamp - Crystal Beasley: https://indiewebcamp.com/founders
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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LukasRos Cool, I got a token endpoint for IndieAuth/MicroPub working!
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LukasRos aaronpk: The debug output of Quill is really helpful, good job :)
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GWG tantek: Do you have any thoughts on scrobbling that aren't in the wiki?
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tantek probably
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GWG Last night, I started scratching one of acegiak's itches. I'm not sure I'm going to scrobble, but it was a good idea, so I stuck it in.
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GWG I'm still trying to figure out if marking it up as a reply is the best move. It seemed like it at 2AM, but I always question anything I thought was a good idea in the middle of the night
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tantek how is it a reply? to what?
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GWG To the music, I suppose. But it was more best available as I tried to figure that out.
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tantek best available what?
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GWG Of the choices I'd already coded.
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tantek yikes
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tantek that's a horrible way to design a representation for something
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GWG I figured I'd save it that way and think about it after sleep.
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tantek doing so usually corrupts two things
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tantek the new thing
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tantek and the old thing
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tantek better to leave it uncoded
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GWG That's why I'm trying to figure out what does make sense. I'm not pushing it.
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tantek than overload something you already have working
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tantek I'm saying better to not code that way in the first place
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tantek and leave it uncoded while trying to figure out what does make sense
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tantek the state of it being "unknown" is better than the state of it being conflated with something it is not
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GWG I'll accept that.
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GWG Is there such a concept as p-audio?
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tantek GWG - there is, for posting audio content
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GWG The problem is, how to you distinguish between posting audio content and listening to audio content?
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tantek they are completely different things!
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GWG That was where I fell down.
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tantek how?
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GWG You could be listening to what you are posting.
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GWG Which I assume would be two properties.
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tantek audio posts are (currently) for audio you *create* like a podcast
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tantek listening is very different
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tantek it's like the difference between posting an article, and bookmarking it or using gRegor's "reading" posts
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GWG That's usually where I get confused.
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tantek.com edited /founders (+75) "linky linky" (view diff)
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tantek GWG - what's confusing about the massive difference between reading a book and writing a book?
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GWG tantek: I'm usually confused about how to mark that up.
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tantek but you do realize they are different right?
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GWG Yes.
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GWG It's the verbs that get to me.
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tantek sounds more like it's the passive posts that do
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GWG tantek: That's what I'm trying to add in. A variety of passive posts.
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tantek GWG, have you looked at existing passive post markup?
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GWG I had a bit of a problem with that
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GWG What is passive?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "passive" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=passive&summary=%28prompted+by+GWG+https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-02-14/line/1423934040335%29
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tantek GWG, aaronpk wrote a nice big long article about passive posts a while back
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GWG You wouldn't by any chance have a link, would you?
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tantek.com edited /rsvp (+180) "/* Tantek */ now supports RSVP no also" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Falcon (+351) "/* RSVP */ "not going to " / "no" supported now" (view diff)
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tantek GWG, looking
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GWG I could always use Activity Stream object types.
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tantek looking at existing work is usually better than looking at existing specs for work
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GWG The only example for scrobbling, seems to be mowens.com
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tantek GWG, this post of aaronpk's talks a lot about approaches to indieweb passive posts by way of concrete examples: http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2013/10/11/1/the-future-of-quantified-self-devices
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GWG But he is classifying it as data
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GWG tantek: There is one other alternative, if I understand it correctly.
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KevinMarks__ this is part of what I was thinking about with http://indiewebcamp.com/reader-components#Entry_read_state
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GWG If I mark it up someway, and use it, I become the example
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KevinMarks__ An example; there are silo examples
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GWG I saw the Facebook example.
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GWG https://www.facebook.com/notes/facebook/listen-to-music-with-your-friends/10150457932027131
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GWG I was trying to find an example of someone using it
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GWG Then, I have one more feature I can't even wrap my head around. A passive post for adding things to a wishlist.
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KevinMarks__ Amazon wishlists are longstanding things
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GWG What is the singular element of a wishlist?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "singular element of a wishlist" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=singular+element+of+a+wishlist&summary=%28prompted+by+GWG+https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-02-14/line/1423935279413%29
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KevinMarks__ Wish?
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GWG That's what I was wondering
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KevinMarks__ Gift registry is another parallel
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GWG I'm having trouble with my terminology. To add something to my list, I need a singular and a plural.
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GWG I also need a verb
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GWG I'm obsessing again, I know
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tantek adding things to a wishlist is not a passive action
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GWG I'm going to step back from that for a while and leave it to acegiak. It isn't an itch of mine specifically.
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alpower anyone got any PESO or POSSE suggestions for photo posting? Currently mainly using Flickr/Instagram, and wanting to look at options for catalogueing everything I post on my own site.
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GWG alpower: I'm not a big photo poster, but people seem to like ownmygram
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alpower GWG: Thanks - will look that up!
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tantek alpower: start here: https://indiewebcamp.com/photos
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tantek darn how did I miss the return of barnabywalters
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tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-02-13
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GWG tantek: Hopefully he'll be back
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tantek.com edited /rsvp (+611) "/* Why */ expand, add Why RSVP no subsection since I found a specific use-case myself (and it was sufficient to make me implement RSVP no posts in particular)" (view diff)
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alpower tantek: thanks! hope you are well.
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tantek thanks alpower! same to you. :)
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GWG I am going to move to rel syndication issues. Less controversy
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GWG Hello, snarfed1
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snarfed1 ugh brb
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snarfed hey GWG
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GWG snarfed: Got a minute to talk about the e-content question?
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snarfed GWG: not right now, maybe later
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snarfed sorry
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GWG No problem.
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pdurbin I'm curious what people think about this oauth thing: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/linuxvillage/2015-02-14#i_10116104
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@Johannes_Ernst Somehow I missed the recent good vibes between @davewiner @t @kylewm2 etc #IndieWeb folks. Good to see. We all have very similar goals. (twitter.com/_/status/566674677536268289)
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GWG Why do people think there are bad vibes?
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pdurbin GWG: my impression is that this channel is fairly anti-RSS
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kylewm GWG: http://scripting.com/2014/03/15/indiewebAndRss.html
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GWG I use RSS. Nothing has replaced it yet fully
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pdurbin I use RSS to download podcasts.
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GWG I suppose I could go to Atom
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GWG pdurbin: Same
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GWG Kylewm, I also could start using woodwind.
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kylewm be my guest :)
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GWG kylewm: I have to fix micropub first.
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kylewm it works as a reader without micropub
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GWG Yes, but I save stories in bulk to read later.
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GWG kylewm: Worth proposing a read later feature?
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kylewm GWG: not an itch for me personally, i wanted to make it as little like reading email as possible
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kylewm maybe you could use micropub to bookmark posts to read later?
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GWG kylewm: See above.
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kylewm see what above?
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GWG Me saying that I need to fix micropub
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GWG snarfed made some changes that I need to override as they would break my site
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GWG Simplest solution is to disable them in a second plugin.
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kylewm (pull requests on woodwind are welcome of course, also)
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GWG kylewm: Also would need to brush up on python
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kylewm huh, https://twitter.com/davewiner/status/566691330395738112
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@davewiner @Johannes_Ernst @t @kylewm2 -- I think we should make a set of criteria that define something as good for independence. (twitter.com/_/status/566691330395738112)
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kylewm https://twitter.com/davewiner/status/566691419264647168
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@davewiner @Johannes_Ernst @t @kylewm2 -- and then get proactive at identifying those products. so users know which ones help the web and which don't. (twitter.com/_/status/566691419264647168)
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GWG Yes, let's start making an enemies list. That always goes well.
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KartikPrabhu well davewiner did get upset when RSS was left out of such a "list"
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acegiak morning, all
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Loqi acegiak: GWG left you a message 7 hours, 14 minutes ago: Another push.
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acegiak gwg tantek, i'm gonna fiddle the code for scrobbling today
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acegiak because the markup should be p-listen-to
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acegiak and the post kind should be listen
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tantek_____ acegiak cool that makes sense. listen like read
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tantek_____ kylewm we already have a list of criteria, it's called indiewebcamp.com/principles
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acegiak tantek: if we have "listen" and "watch" its fair to use "play" for games isnt it?
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aaronpk it's funny, i have no problem publicly listing what i'm listening to, but what tv/movies I watch feels very different
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acegiak tv shows and movies arent really in my own plans either, i wonder why we have that difference
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acegiak brb
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@AmrEldib Rise of the IndieWeb - Amber Case https://www.youtube.com/ (twitter.com/_/status/566729874543345664)
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aaronpk i definitely want to at least keep track of tv/movies myself, making some of them public
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tantek______ aaronpk, public vs private (venue) checkins
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tantek______ kylewm, we also already have a measure of indieweb sites: indiewebcamp.com/IndieMark
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tantek______ as well as a good start in how indieweb-friendly other sites are or can be: indiewebcamp.com/friendly
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snarfed happy valentines day indieweb!
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snarfed just as another example, i enjoy keeping track of everything linked from https://snarfed.org/lists , but i haven't bothered figuring out markup yet
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snarfed GWG: so…nested e-content!
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snarfed first things first: do we know it breaks? might be worth trying in a couple parsers, e.g. php-mf2, mf2py. want to try that?
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aaronpk yes true, although I don't often privately check in to places. maybe if I had my own (actually private) way to check in i'd do it more
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aaronpk i've actually been "checking in" to people for about a year. several times per day noting who I am hanging out with
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snarfed aaronpk: sounds like just a (semi-)private post?
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aaronpk completely privately of course, i can't think of many cases that would be public
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GWG snarfed: It confuses the pin13 one.
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aaronpk snarfed: yeah I just don't do it on foursquare much
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tantek______ Aaronpk, wanting to post (semi) privately is why I don't do indie checkins yet
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tantek______ It's why I use swarm/foursquare/Checkie instead.
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@ahmgeek @AmrEldib "Rise on the indieweb" so catchy. (twitter.com/_/status/566732434369441792)
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tantek______ Snarfed, what use case are you trying to solve with your lists?
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snarfed tantek____: they're primarily for myself, like most things on my site. they're just public for the discipline and to share
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aaronpk are they like "todo" or "wish" lists?
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snarfed GWG: definitely?
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snarfed aaronpk: both i guess. and "done" lists
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GWG snarfed: I just used the html box and tried it.
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snarfed GWG: what's the failure mode? link?
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tantek______ Snarfed, I get they're primarily for yourself. But why? What do you get out it?
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GWG snarfed: I could code a page so you could see. As I said, just tried it in the box provided.
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snarfed tantek____: the "done" ones are for keeping track, memories, sharing w/others. useful e.g. when i'm at the store and want to know if i liked a beer
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snarfed the "to do" ones are like any todo/wish list
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snarfed GWG: ok. can you at least describe the failure mode?
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tantek______ eg aaronpk's /collections I understand.
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tantek______ snarfed, interesting, you just named the two exact use cases of Foursquare lists
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snarfed cool
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aaronpk i always forget about foursquare lists
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aaronpk even though i have made several for various reasons
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GWG snarfed: It isn't picking up anything inside the nested e-content.
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tantek______ eg list of recommended cafes in SF. Or to do list of venues to visit.
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snarfed GWG: oh. ok then. that's definitely broken
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snarfed GWG: what do you think we should do?
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snarfed also worth trying in mf2py, just to see
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GWG snarfed: That's why I wanted to talk to you about it before I tried a solution
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snarfed e.g. https://kylewm.com/services/mf2
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tantek______ aaronpk since you've made several foursquare lists, could you document their lists feature on /Foursquare ?
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GWG Option #1: Do nothing. But then anyone who has marked up their theme has a big problem.
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aaronpk sure, tho i'm thinking if this makes sense for this blog post i'm writing
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aaronpk heh the foursquare twitter icon disappeared
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tantek______ Understanding the use cases (and looking at prior real world examples) is the way to figure out to indie publish, and then how to mark it up
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GWG Option #2: Set up a way for a theme to tell you when to enable/disable it.
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GWG Option #3: Turn it off by default.
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GWG I'm thinking #2 makes the most sense.
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tantek______ Aaronpk except that's one level few moved from the wiki page, and likely more work
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snarfed GWG: so the catch is reply contexts etc right?
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snarfed since those will go inside the post body, but you want them outside the e-content
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aaronpk tantek______: do you think it would be okay to upload logos to the wiki with a description that says it's copyright by them?
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tantek______ Better to just start with simple documentation on the wiki, and then later incorporate that into your blog post.
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aaronpk this has come up a couple times
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GWG snarfed: In an mf2 supported theme, the_content is inside e-content. You are assuming e-content is inside the_content.
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GWG So, I have a solution to propose.
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tantek______ aaronpk uploading copyrighted logos is likely a bad idea.
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aaronpk isn't there some sort of fair use thing?
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aaronparecki.com edited /Foursquare (+0) "replace logo" (view diff)
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GWG snarfed: The way a theme declares support for optional functions from core is add_theme_support.
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tantek______ aaronpk answering that question even semi confidently requires a lawyer, so no. Assume there isn't because it's too much work to answer the question.
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snarfed GWG: ok. this is over my head now, in terms of wordpress knowledge
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snarfed go ahead and propose a fix and i'll probably accept it
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GWG snarfed: Basically, you check to see if the theme declared support for mf2 and if it did, you don't add the tags.
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snarfed great!
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snarfed want to send a PR?
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GWG snarfed: I have to reset my fork after the last one.
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GWG snarfed: Also, I would have to file an issue against SemPress. But not a bad idea.
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snarfed please do! thanks!
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aaronpk wow, I was expecting to find some sort of semi-conclusive info searching company logos in wikimedia commons, but wow
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aaronpk they claim the IBM logo can't be copyright because it "does not meet the threshold of originality" (a legal copyright term)
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aaronpk https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:IBM_logo.svg
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aaronpk the intel logo has something similar https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Intel-logo.svg
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snarfed hey aaronpk, re ownyourgram and the auth header, you were right, my server was stripping it :/
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snarfed i'm thinking it'd be nice for quill, oyg, etc to send both the header and access_token param, to support servers that can only handle one or the other
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snarfed good practice in general to send/accept both if possible, for that reason
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snarfed want me to file issues?
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aaronpk same with pepsi logo https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Pepsi_logo.gif
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ben_thatmust woah, tantek went crazy with the _'s
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aaronpk this makes no sense to me, so yeah I agree let's just avoid uploading logos as much as I want to
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aaronpk ben_thatmust: yeah that's a problem with the irc web gateway, it's holding on to nicks after the person leaves the browser, and i can't figure out why
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aaronpk snarfed: okay go ahead. i was hoping to avoid sending it outside the header but we may have to given current experience
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snarfed thanks, will do
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ben_thatmust i had noticed that in the past. It happened to me when my phone lost signal. If i closed the tab it would free it correctly
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@kylewm2 @davewiner @Johannes_Ernst @t We’ve tried to compile such a criteria here http://indiewebcamp.com/principles . Also http://indiewebcamp.com/friendly for 3rd pa… (twitter.com/_/status/566736191379087360)
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Loqi [mention] Kyle Mahan commented '@davewiner @Johannes_Ernst @t We’ve tried to compile such a criteria here indiewebcamp.com/principles. Also indiewebcamp.com/friendly for 3r...' on a post that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/principles (https://kylewm.com/2015/02/davewiner-johannes-ernst-t-we-ve-tried-to-compile)
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Loqi [mention] Kyle Mahan commented '@davewiner @Johannes_Ernst @t We’ve tried to compile such a criteria here indiewebcamp.com/principles. Also indiewebcamp.com/friendly for 3r...' on a post that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/friendly (https://kylewm.com/2015/02/davewiner-johannes-ernst-t-we-ve-tried-to-compile)
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ben_thatmust i don't know the exact system / setup but immediate thoughts are some retry-connection setting, or session timeout
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ben_thatmust i doubt session actually
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aaronpk ben_thatmust: yeah there's some event that i'm not catching. node has to explicitly disconnect
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GWG snarfed: By the way...this should summarize the idea... http://joshuadnelson.com/creating-custom-theme-feature-support/
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ben_thatmust oh its node
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ben_thatmust hmm
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aaronpk https://github.com/aaronpk/indiewebcamp-irc-logs/blob/master/streaming/irc-client.js
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aaronpk i'm catching "close" and "error" https://github.com/aaronpk/indiewebcamp-irc-logs/blob/master/streaming/irc-client.js#L84
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aaronpk there don't seem to be any other events to catch
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aaronpk https://github.com/websockets/ws/blob/master/doc/ws.md
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snarfed GWG: thanks! sounds good. i glazed pretty fast reading that, but i trust it's the right way. thanks for doing it!
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kylewm snarfed: got a pretty decent answer on SO today; sounds like basically we can see the posts of anyone who has given our application "read_stream" permission, and pretty much no application will be allowed to ask for read_stream after April
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kylewm snarfed: but i'm idly wondering if we might be able to reply/like a post without actually being able to see it
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snarfed sigh. yeah read_stream is impossible even now. details in https://github.com/snarfed/activitystreams-unofficial/issues/26
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snarfed "This permission is granted to apps building a Facebook-branded client on platforms where Facebook is not already available. For example, Android and iOS apps will not be approved for this permission. In addition, Web, Desktop, in-car and TV apps will not be granted this permission."
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aaronpk whoa
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snarfed kylewm: i don't think we can reply/like w/o seeing it. that's what we were trying to do originally and it didn't work, right?
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snarfed or at least, they may be decoupled, but we couldn't reply/like either
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kylewm snarfed: I haven't looked into it... seems like there's a very slight possibility that we couldn't like a post for another reason, and then tried to pull the post up in the Graph Explorer and couldn't see it because of readstream
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kylewm but yeah most likely we're hosd
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kylewm hosed
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snarfed so, not new information, but nice to at least get some confirmation
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snarfed interesting that it let you award the bounty w/o accepting
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kylewm right, and I didn't really understand that read_stream meant I couldnt see anything from anyone
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Loqi [bridgy] Dave Winer ☮ replied '@kylewm2 @Johannes_Ernst @t -- that includes a lot of things that while important, are not necessary for software to build web independence' to a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/principles (https://twitter.com/davewiner/status/566736407042220032)
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Loqi [bridgy] Dave Winer ☮ replied '@kylewm2 @Johannes_Ernst @t -- that includes a lot of things that while important, are not necessary for software to build web independence' to a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/friendly (https://twitter.com/davewiner/status/566736407042220032)
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snarfed kylewm: i probably didn't either. facebook kind of just hates developers now. ok then.
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snarfed learned the privacy lesson late, but when they did, they took it all the way
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kylewm hard not to view it as, "open up the platform until it gets big enough and then shut down access to it"
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kylewm when third party developers do less to help your site and more to support their own stuff
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snarfed followed twitter's lead
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snarfed g+ at least did the latter from the beginning :P
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kylewm haha yes
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kylewm consistency
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snarfed kylewm: sigh. ok then. should we bit the bullet and kill it in bridgy?
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kylewm i vote yes
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snarfed yeah probably
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snarfed ugh. i just realized that if you combine this with https://github.com/snarfed/ownyourresponses#facebook , the conclusion is that FB's 2.x API makes it impossible to either POSSE *or* PESOS likes, comments, etc
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aaronpk so basically facebook is dead to us?
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snarfed for likes and comments :(
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snarfed my bar for wikifying is high, but this meets it. brb
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aaronpk man talk about closing up a platform
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GWG I know I've said it before
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GWG What is The Cask of Amontillado?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Cask of Amontillado" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Cask+of+Amontillado&summary=%28prompted+by+GWG+https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-02-14/line/1423956976055%29
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GWG I thought I put it in
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GWG Oh well
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aaronparecki.com created /Cask_of_Amontillado (+36) "r" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /Foursquare (+852) "add some info about foursquare lists" (view diff)
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snarfed i don't understand wiki main/subpages and content duplication :(
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snarfed e.g. http://indiewebcamp.com/Facebook#POSSE_out_to vs http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE_to_Facebook
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aaronpk what do you mean?
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snarfed looks like lots of overlap and skew
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acegiak ok, here's a fun one. I don't think audio and video should be separate kinds from note/article
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aaronpk i think that'sj ust naturla evolution of pages
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snarfed aaronpk: sure. just makes me sad
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aaronpk like the facebook page starts with info about how to posse, then it turns out that it may be its own topic so a new page is created.
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aaronpk it makes sense to consolidate at some point
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acegiak I feel like most of the other kinds are a relationship between the post and some other content?
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aaronpk it is a wiki after all
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aaronpk i agree with the facebook and facebook-related topics
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GWG acegiak: I suppose it could switch to listen and watch instead of audio and video.
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aaronpk but audio and video make sense to be their own pages, because then there's the ability to have the 'indieweb exampels' section on each
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acegiak GWG: shall I switch them out for the moment?
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acegiak or should I add listen and watch?
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acegiak maybe /i should add listen and watch for hte moment
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GWG acegiak: You can switch them out. Or I will for now. I had no plans to use audio and video at the moment. But listen and watch I might.
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snarfed goddamn i hate mediawiki syntax
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GWG Of course, if I ever do a podcast or something...
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GWG For the future, I suppose
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acegiak I feel like having post kinds for note, article, photo, video, audio is kinda counter to using actual html like we do here on the web
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GWG acegiak: I'm in the micropub code right now.
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ben_thatmust aaronpk, after looking around the best i can find it trying to switch to socket.io or something that lets you setyour own heartbeat function
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acegiak GWG: cool
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ben_thatmust other people have had similar issues
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GWG acegiak: Not sure if you caught the add_theme_support thing a few lines up.
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acegiak no?
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snarfed.org edited /Facebook (+567) "can't POSSE or PESOS comments/likes" (view diff)
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@AmrEldib @ahmgeek it's an interesting idea https://indiewebcamp.com/ (twitter.com/_/status/566745194502950912)
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ben_thatmust actually aaronpk, look at this http://stackoverflow.com/questions/25352111/nodejs-einaros-ws-connection-timeout
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GWG acegiak: I'm going to propose that any theme that does microformats2 register its support, so any plugin will be aware of it. You don't need core for that.
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acegiak sounds good
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GWG acegiak: I may switch post kinds to the same idea. Register theme support for it the way post formats does.
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acegiak GWG: you're right about the wording being tricky for games
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GWG acegiak: Working on it now?
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acegiak just going through and updating kind names yeah
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snarfed.org edited /POSSE_to_Facebook (+287) "2.x api disables comments/likes" (view diff)
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GWG Keep me posted.
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snarfed kylewm: huh. speaking of fb, bridgy's fb api calls for poll for your account are consistently 400/500ing. dunno why
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snarfed i'm ready to throw fb over a bridge
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tantek snarfed - it's almost like they want to kill the platform
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tantek but slowly?
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tantek we know a bunch of people over there, @daveman692, various ex-Mozilla folks. maybe it's time to post something about it publicly and ask
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acegiak I feel like facebook's strat is "Become big enough that the rest of the web migrates to you or dies"
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tantek pdurbin: interesting use-case about "to download podcasts"
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tantek what is a podcoast?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "podcoast" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=podcoast&summary=%28prompted+by+tantek+https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-02-14/line/1423958281165%29
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tantek lol
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tantek what is a podcast
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Loqi A podcast is an episodic series of audio and/or video posts that can be subscribed to and downloaded for offline listening/viewing https://indiewebcamp.com/podcast
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acegiak whisperfollow embeds the media attachement of rss streams
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acegiak so I use it to sub to my podcasts
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tantek.com edited /podcast (+82) "differentiate how to publish vs. consume" (view diff)
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acegiak but I need to add something to pop the player out to another window so that I can keep listening if I close my whisperfollow tab
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tantek acegiak, pdurbin could you add to this subsection: https://indiewebcamp.com/podcast#How_to_consume
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acegiak sure
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tantek I don't really consume podcasts myself so I don't want to write something theoretical there.