#indiewebcamp 2015-03-02

2015-03-02 UTC
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Loqi slack/pwcc: Thanks - it was Google's structured markup tester. I'll markup the logotype with authorship over lunch and try again.
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tantek pwcc, that's probably worth minimizing to an h-entry test case then
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tantek if you don't mind minimizing / sharing your markup!
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GWG tantek: Just humanity in general. People are frustrating
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GWG pwcc: Still don't have a good name for Extras for Indieweb.
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tantek GWG, sorry to hear that. People can be frustrating yes. But they can also be wonderfully supportive. Depends on the people, and sometimes in what mood you happen to encounter them.
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Loqi slack/pwcc: tantek: not at all.
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GWG tantek: I can defend many things. Some of this...harder
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GWG In the meantime, at least I get Indieweb stuff...sort of
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tantek GWG, yes, sometimes it's best to focus on the things we can change, about ourselves.
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GWG tantek: How about you? I need a good name for a plugin that consists of little bits and extras that don't belong in with the nice clean plumbing.
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Loqi slack/pwcc: GWG: A working title of Extras for Indieweb works. Gives us time to brainstorm. Or Indiewebpack :simple_smile:
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GWG I'll be putting together some after I finish tweaking Syndication Links, which I'm adding Communications links to.
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GWG And fixing Semantic Comments
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tantek GWG, how about IndieWeb FunPack 1? ;)
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tantek and then if you come up with another such plugin you can name it … 2
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GWG tantek: Sounds like something I ordered from Alibaba
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Loqi slack/pwcc: looks up American pop-culture reference. Lols.
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tantek pwcc, lol at your placeholder comments text
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Loqi slack/pwcc: tantek: credit goes to Brad Frost & Dave Olsen, it's default text in Pattern Lab.
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GWG pwcc: Which pop culture reference?
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Loqi slack/pwcc: GWG: Alibaba, although I am generally hopeless at pop-culture. In a past life I worked on the website for a local tonight show & ppl had to tell me who, say, steve carell was in a photo.
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GWG pwcc: Alibaba is a Chinese company
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tantek I thought it was a wholly owned subsidiary of Yahoo
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tantek what is Alibaba?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Alibaba" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Alibaba&summary=prompted+by+tantek+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-03-01%2Fline%2F1425256093019
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GWG I was trying not to be US centric
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Loqi slack/pwcc: No worries, I got there. I'm pretty good with survivor references...
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@t @awoods your bio says WordPress and your site too. #indieweb is about empowering how you already work: http://tantek.com/2015/060/t3/wordpress-indieweb-empowering-how-you-work (twitter.com/_/status/572192474573111296)
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Loqi slack/pwcc: (I am also feeling pretty Monday back at work for the week)
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@t @awoods @kylewm2 your bio says WordPress & your site too. #indieweb is about empowering how you already work: http://tantek.com/2015/060/t3/wordpress-indieweb-empowering-how-you-work (twitter.com/_/status/572192917122617345)
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GWG Hmm....an artisanal website creator.
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GWG Maybe I could talk more people into helping me build Post Kinds and such
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tantek well let's see how that POSSE update works with kylewm's comment receiving/de-duping code
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tantek forgot that for twitter-threading to work, I had to explicitly mention @kylewm2 to thread onto his tweet
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tantek ok that's pretty cool, looks like webmention comment update worked - https://kylewm.com/2015/03/awoods-really-up-to-you-lots-of-us-have-rolled-our only has one copy of my indie-reply
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tantek wondering if it'll show a duplicate from Twitter or not
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tantek !tell kylewm looks like your site is caching my site icon/avatar - just changed it this morning and yet my responses to this post show previous icon: https://kylewm.com/2015/03/awoods-really-up-to-you-lots-of-us-have-rolled-our
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek wonders if he should be setting up PuSH 0.4 to send notifications of icon updates
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GWG tantek: This is why I was asking about updated on an h-card
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tantek GWG, an h-card could be anywhere
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tantek do you mean a home page?
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snarfed kylewm de-dupes across silos?!
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tantek snarfed: certainly looks like he de-dupes POSSE copies at least.
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: has a local nicknames cache maybe also stores avatars
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tantek KartikPrabhu: perhaps a local nicknames cache should sign-up for notifications for changes to any of the image URLs it keeps?
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KartikPrabhu maybe that would be level2 nicknames cache
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tantek or even just the home pages of all the people it keeps
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tantek I'm curious how kylewm wants to solve it
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tantek !tell kylewm when did you implement de-duping POSSE copies of replies to your posts?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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snarfed tantek: bridgy hasn't polled kylewm's twitter account since you posted that reply
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snarfed i'm nudging it now
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tantek heh
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snarfed ooh actually his account is paused because our twitter revocation checking is over aggressive
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snarfed kylewm: you'll want to unpause https://www.brid.gy/twitter/kylewm2
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kylewm grr
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Loqi kylewm: tantek left you a message 5 minutes ago: looks like your site is caching my site icon/avatar - just changed it this morning and yet my responses to this post show previous icon: https://kylewm.com/2015/03/awoods-really-up-to-you-lots-of-us-have-rolled-our
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Loqi kylewm: tantek left you a message 1 minute ago: when did you implement de-duping POSSE copies of replies to your posts?
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tantek snarfed: well in that case, glad I sent an indie-to-indie reply
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tantek and didn't depend on silos/proxies for reply transport ;)
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kylewm snarfed: do you know why it was revoked?
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tantek What is Twitter revocation?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Twitter revocation" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Twitter+revocation&summary=prompted+by+tantek+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-03-01%2Fline%2F1425257233260
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snarfed kylewm: it interprets some twitter 403s and 401s as the user having revoked the bridgy app, and that logic sometimes false positives
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snarfed i don't know why yet
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kylewm oh
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kylewm tantek: my imageproxy caches images for 1y, probably should dial that down to 1d or something
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tantek kylewm, maybe with lazy expiration?
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tantek e.g. don't expire until you get a webmention from that domain?
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tantek so that you're not polling everybody's site once a day or something (though I guess that's not that bad?)
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KartikPrabhu feed readers do such polling anyway
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tantek KartikPrabhu: good point - perhaps such polling by kylewm's feed reader could also update his image cache?
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kylewm hmm, i don't know if i have any control over the cache, nginx is doing it
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tantek KartikPrabhu: however in this case, my icon URL didn't change - only the image itself did
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tantek so that would require an extra HEAD request
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KartikPrabhu tantek: yes that could be a tricky issue
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tantek speaking of reading, I'm not sure I understand awoods's question: https://twitter.com/awoods/status/572144485825585152
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@awoods one thing i'm unclear about #indieweb - how do you follow the various type of content on a single site? e.g. photos + tweets, no blog posts (twitter.com/_/status/572144485825585152)
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tantek is he asking about following a *subset* of post types?
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KartikPrabhu tantek: i think he means different post types like notes/photos/articles etcc
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tantek but why explicitly "no" blog posts then?
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KartikPrabhu I would guess frequency of posting
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tantek hoping he stops by IRC
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KartikPrabhu Ideally I would want my reader to treat notes + other things differently than articles which are less frequent
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KartikPrabhu having seperate feeds for each helps
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KartikPrabhu IMO when you subscribe to a site on a reader, it should do a rel-feed search for possible feeds and allow me to subscribe only to the ones I want
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Loqi slack/pwcc: Wonder if he has seen <http://adactio.com|adactio.com>'s variety of feeds &amp; expecting them as standard.
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KartikPrabhu pwcc: I think he has not seen it, hence the question. Since that method is a good one to separate post types
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tantek a-ha! no POSSE copy of reply de-duping yet: https://kylewm.com/2015/03/awoods-really-up-to-you-lots-of-us-have-rolled-our
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Loqi slack/pwcc: GWG: IndieWeb FunPack idea for kinds extension, feed urls such as <http://example.com/feed?kind=notes&amp;kind=article&amp;kind=etc|example.com/feed?kind=notes&amp;kind=article&amp;kind=etc>
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Loqi slack/pwcc: GWG: allows users to generate their own feed preference.
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tantek also - caught up on logs
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tantek (for today :P )
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GWG pwcc: I'm setting up the repo just so I can file the ideas as Issues
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Loqi slack/pwcc: KartikPrabhu: yeah, maybe. I like the idea, helpful for users.
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kylewm hmm, well I can manually purge the cached images by deleting the file in /var/nginx/cache/[md5 hash of url]
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kylewm probably not a bad idea for avatars of received webmentions
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GWG pwcc: https://github.com/dshanske/indieweb-extras - Start filing ideas. I'll write code later
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GWG tantek: If you attach updated to the h-card on your home-page, then it should indicate last updating of details. Which would make sense over last update for the whole page.
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tantek.com created /WS_Deathstar (+39) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /WSDeathstar (+39) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /WS-Deathstar (+39) "r" (view diff)
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kylewm ok tantek, you're deduplicated now :) https://kylewm.com/2015/03/awoods-really-up-to-you-lots-of-us-have-rolled-our
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kylewm I had actually done that a long time ago, but lost it at some point in refactoring
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tantek kylewm: was that a manual de-duplication? or via /original-post-discovery from the tweet to the other comment?
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kylewm it depends on a lot of steps happening in the right order... person has to add u-syndication links to their original post, and then send me a webmention after
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kylewm so if they comment, webmention, then posse, it won't work
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kylewm tantek: it is based on u-syndication on the original, original-post-discovery on the posse copy would be smart too
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tantek hmm that sounds like too much dependency
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kylewm well, you should send another wm after you update your post with the syndication url!
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tantek is the syndication URL check due to false positives on original-post-discovery?
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tantek i.e. this should be enough:
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tantek tweet -> original-post-discovery -> if that original post permalink is already in comments, then don't add tweet as another comment (de-duped)
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tantek that has no need to check for any syndication links
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kylewm yeah but most people don't put backlinks/PSCs on their tweets
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kylewm i haven't actually crunched the numbers on that
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kylewm but snarfed comments most often on my stuff, and he doesn't
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tantek sure, that's a reasonable fallback
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ben_thatmustbeme i still need to add original post discovery to mine
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tantek are you saying not enough people use PSLs/PSCs to be worth writing the code?
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tantek aaronpk uses them
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tantek as do you!
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tantek e.g. that very thread
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kylewm well I do when the post is longer than the content of the tweet
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snarfed most (all?) known users don't use PSL/PSCs
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kylewm also! no PSCs on likes or reposts
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snarfed ooh true
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tantek kylewm: have you had dupe likes / reposts?
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tantek would be interesting to try to solve that
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kylewm tantek: it is definitely worth writing original-post-discovery before i start worrying about other heuristics like string similarity comparison
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kylewm oh yeah definitely
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tantek good to know
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ben_thatmustbeme part of me is tempted to ignore the PSC and only de-dupe if there are u-syndication
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tantek alright I posed it as a question because I'm still not sure if it is a big deal or not that Google is trying to own .dev and .blog https://twitter.com/t/status/572209673077723137
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@t Does it matter that @Google is asking for exclusive internal use of .dev, and silo-izing .blog? http://sealedabstract.com/rants/google-our-patron-saint-of-the-closed-web/ (ttk.me t4_v6) (twitter.com/_/status/572209673077723137)
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ben_thatmustbeme huh, i did not know about that, thats slightly upsetting
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: right, slightly
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tantek I'm not sure if it matters?
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tantek new TLDs are quite worthless
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tantek reloads https://kylewm.com/2015/02/invited-a-class-h-card-p-invitee-href-http-werd-io to see if markup has changed
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tantek a-ha - very nice kylewm
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tantek goes to update wiki
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snarfed tantek++ for new TLDs are quite worthless…or at least, hogging them isn't necessarily such a big deal
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Loqi tantek has 158 karma
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snarfed (which is why that article's conclusion seems so out of hand to me: "This is a methodical, coordinated, long-running and well-planned attack on the open web that comes from the highest levels of Google leadership.")
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kylewm tantek: markup has changed, awful slug has not
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tantek snarfed - am trying not to fall too quickly for potential "bash Google" bait.
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kylewm though i did fix the code that generates the slug :p
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tantek kylewm: hah - just noticed the p-invitee in the slug lol
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ben_thatmustbeme useless for now, but still, complete control of generic domains is rather annoying especially when they could just as easily use *.dev.google etc
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kylewm why do you say they're worthless?
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tantek kylewm: in practice getting users/consumers to recognize/use new domains
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tantek and nevermind trust
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kylewm ah ok
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tantek.com edited /invitation (+7) "update to use u-invitee h-card per microformats2 parsing discussion/brainstorm about what "value" to extract from a nested object, and what would be most useful to the consuming code in this case (a URL to a person's home page, rather than name)" (view diff)
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tantek kylewm: did you ever hear back if anyone you invited in that invitation post got the webmention to their home page?
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tantek.com edited /invitation (+168) "/* User Flow */ note invitation recognition, UI nicety of providing simple buttons for yes / maybe / no" (view diff)
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tantek kylewm: did you consider POSSEing https://kylewm.com/2015/02/invited-a-class-h-card-p-invitee-href-http-werd-io to anywhere?
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tantek e.g. if you'd written it like: "Hey @benwerd @erinjo @kevinmarks @snarfed @t, you should come to Homebrew Website Club 2015 February 25 https://kylewm.com/2015/02/homebrew-website-club-2015-february-25"
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tantek then that might make sense as a POSSE tweet
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tantek s/might/would
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Loqi tantek meant to say: then that would make sense as a POSSE tweet
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tantek especially if you were inviting a few folks that didn't have their own site yet, but did have a Twitter account
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Loqi slack/pwcc: tantek, got my mf1&amp;2 sorted out - thanks for you help earlier.
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tantek pwcc great!
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tantek what was the trick?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "trick" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=trick&summary=prompted+by+tantek+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-03-01%2Fline%2F1425261909659
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tantek lolol
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tantek didn't realize Loqi responded to was
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Loqi grins profusely
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Loqi slack/pwcc: marked up the site header with a generic h-card &amp; added author information to each h-entry.
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Loqi slack/pwcc: now to get it into WP before the 19th...
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@twilliability Two key texts about re-decentralizing the web: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/02/tim-berners-lee-we-need-to-re-decentralize-the-web/ and http://t.co/PpXr8lsCxo. Watch this space #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/572217658373898240)
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tantek pwcc do you think that's worth writing up as troubleshooting with an answer?
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tantek.com edited /invitation (+2122) "Brainstorming section, move User Flow there (since not implemented yet), and add POSSEing invitations brainstorm, and Proxying an invitation" (view diff)
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tantek phew, and with that, I've finally finished processing an open tab of http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-10-20
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Loqi slack/pwcc: tantek not a bad idea, I can blog something quickly. the main issue I was having was with µF1 &amp; google's parser, but it's a fairly important use case.
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tantek indeed
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tantek in general it's best to only markup one thing on the page (the main thing of the page) with mf1
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tantek that's all Google really needs
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tantek exception: when a page itself is a *collection*, then it makes sense to markup that top level collection of things all with mf1
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tantek as Google has been known to then display a few of them as a list or a table in the search result preview
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Loqi slack/pwcc: tantek++ thanks, I'll blog something quickly when I get home tongiht &amp; share the link with you
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tantek pwcc - thanks a bunch! that would be great
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@EdTechDeleon @erinjo In other news, also seeing if there’s a way to promoting blogging and the IndieWeb in general among educators. (twitter.com/_/status/572228057118978048)
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tantek neat
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@twilliability ...and now I realize: my last two posts are so connected. FB's account deleting mania is precisely the sort of thing why we need #indieweb. (twitter.com/_/status/572230768195325952)
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tantek whoa
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tantek what is account deleting mania?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "account deleting mania" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=account+deleting+mania&summary=prompted+by+tantek+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-03-01%2Fline%2F1425265475872
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ben_thatmustbeme well half way to original post discovery
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ben_thatmustbeme have it parsing permashort citations now and finding original from that
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ben_thatmustbeme I just really have to deal with checking for syndication links. But I have psc parsing done
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: awesome!
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ben_thatmustbeme I just do so when the mention comes in initially
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ben_thatmustbeme So it actually just thinks the second is a request to update the post
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ben_thatmustbeme s/post/comment
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Loqi ben_thatmustbeme meant to say: So it actually just thinks the second is a request to update the comment
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ben_thatmustbeme I'm still planning out some sort of chatting interface
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ben_thatmustbeme I need to swap off of cron based webmention to instant send/receive
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bret o/
KevinMarks, upper--, KartikPrabhu, wolftune, lukebrooker, danfowle1, sanduhrs, snarfed, michielbdejong, cweiske, LauraJ, Jihaisse, tantek, krendil, interactivist, pfefferle, friedcell, KevinMarks_, petermolnar and wont_on joined the channel
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Jeena I feel this is also kind of a indieweb topic: I made my own "Sptify" replacement with a Raspberry Pi as my music streaming server and wrote a blgpost about it https://jeena.net/private-music-streaming
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michielbdejong Jeena: cool!
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pfefferle good morning
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Loqi slack/pwcc: Good morning.
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Loqi slack/pwcc: !tell tantek, published the post on getting structured data correct. <https://peterwilson.cc/getting-microformats-right/>
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Loqi slack/pwcc: Oops, got that wrong.
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Loqi slack/pwcc: !tell tantek I published the post on getting structured data correct. <https://peterwilson.cc/getting-microformats-right/>
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Loqi slack/pwcc: Ahh, I think I see the problem. I shall email him instead.
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pwcc Take three. This must be fascinating for people in the room at the moment.
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pwcc !tell tantek I published the post on getting structured data correct. https://peterwilson.cc/getting-microformats-right/
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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pwcc !tell aaronpk Loqi doesn't understand tell commands within slack - is it best to stick to Slack DMs? ref: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-03-02/line/1425292914904
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@getkirby @m_for_manu das verfolge ich immer noch. Bin demnächst beim IndieWebcamp deshalb und hab noch einiges vor. (twitter.com/_/status/572356800491745280)
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ben_thatmustbeme pwcc, i don't think slack DMs will help unless they actually check their messages or have it set to email them
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ben_thatmustbeme i turned it off
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ben_thatmustbeme Jeena, well done. now you just need to get it posting scrobbles to your site :P
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pwcc ben_thatmustbeme that's a good point & not everyone is in slack. Will see what Aaron says in his morning.
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pwcc Is there a decent OS X IRC client people can recommend. I've never really used it.
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Jeena hm ben_thatmustbeme not a bad idea acutally
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ben_thatmustbeme pwcc, i've been using quassel, it works on just about everything
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ben_thatmustbeme but i'm working on some ideas to replace it too
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hmans pwcc, Textual.
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hmans pwcc, http://www.codeux.com/textual/
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hmans Don't let the iffy screenshots dissuade you. It's great.
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ben_thatmustbeme http://quassel-irc.org/about also gives links to other great console based options too if you want the headless / reconnect options
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pwcc hmans, ben_thatmustbeme: thanks - textual looks nice but I'll take a look at both in the morning. I've been using the feenode webchat.
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hmans pwcc, if you want to set up a proxy/relay/bouncer type thing, I can recommend (the latest version of) Weechat.
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hmans I have a Weechat instance running in tmux on my server, and I either use it directly, or connect to it from my Mac using Textual.
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pwcc hmans: ta, but I'll probably keep it as simple as possible. Appreciate the help, though.
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pwcc Also - I only understood about half those words :)
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hmans pwcc, in that case, don't worry about it. You don't need to complicate things, IRC is simple. \o/
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GWG Good morning.
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GWG pfefferle: I found your uf2-feed plugin
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pfefferle GWG and I found your indieweb-extras plugin ;)
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pfefferle GWG good morning
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pfefferle GWG I finished the webmentions/semantic-linkback hooks and I hope I remeber to update them tonight
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GWG pfefferle: There's a difference. Mine doesn't do anything. The idea was it would be a home for non-'core' Indieweb features to live. And if they became good enough...they end up somewhere else.
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pfefferle GWG++
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GWG pfefferle: Great. I made some other minor tweaks as part of it. I had trouble with your filters.
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Loqi GWG has 83 karma
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GWG pfefferle++
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Loqi pfefferle has 10 karma
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GWG One good turn deserves enough.
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pfefferle :)
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pfefferle GWG what problems do you have?
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GWG https://github.com/pfefferle/wordpress-semantic-linkbacks/blob/master/semantic-linkbacks.php#L249
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GWG You use Post Format to create the excerpt. I want to use Post Kind
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pfefferle oh ok
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pfefferle I will add a filter too
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GWG Your filter is on the text, but doesn't pass through the comment data.
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pfefferle can you file me an issue
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GWG Done.
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pfefferle GWG thanks :)
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GWG pfefferle: Thank you. Tell me if I can ever do anything for you.
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pfefferle GWG your feedback/ideas is help enough!
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pfefferle GWG will you also add the security stuff to the indieweb extras plugin?
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GWG pfefferle: For now, I will be adding it there.
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pfefferle ok
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pfefferle GWG I give you a note when I updated the WebMention plugin, and can help you to port peters code…
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GWG Unlike JetPack, if the 'module' finds a home elsewhere...I'm fine with that.
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pfefferle :)
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GWG pfefferle: All I really wanted was to get the Wordpress repository version
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GWG Updated. How did it get to me sending you so much stuff?
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pfefferle GWG what do you mean?
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GWG I was just commenting on how I sometimes start with a simple goal and it grows
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pfefferle GWG :)
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GWG pfefferle: I'm still trying to determine if the custom comment walker is better off in Semantic Linkbacks over elsewhere.
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GWG Trying to figure out how to separate the plumbing and the style
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pfefferle GWG oh man… I had an idea I wanted to try to implement… kind of a simple alternative to the walker… not sure if it works though
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GWG pfefferle: What was the idea?
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GWG The reason I tried a walker is it seemed to be less intrusive. I still couldn't do everything with it though.
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pfefferle GWG I wanted to try the build-in grouping mechanism thou
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pfefferle s/thou/https://github.com/WordPress/WordPress/blob/master/wp-includes/comment-template.php#L1195
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Loqi pfefferle meant to say: GWG I wanted to try the build-in grouping mechanism https:
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pfefferle :D
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pfefferle GWG I wanted to try the build-in grouping mechanism https://github.com/WordPress/WordPress/blob/master/wp-includes/comment-template.php#L1195
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GWG pfefferle: I'll have a look. Maybe I can figure something out.
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pfefferle GWG nice!
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Loqi [mention] Jeff Larkin posted 'Getting Started - IndieWebCamp Just a reminder of the suggested steps to starting up with the IndieWeb.' linking to http://indiewebcamp.com/Getting_Started (http://jefflarkin.withknown.com/2015/getting-started---indiewebcamp)
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gRegor` aaronpk: What was the minimal CSS framework you recently said you might try?
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gRegor` Found it: http://getskeleton.com/
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tonious Fair enough.
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tonious Whoops.
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bret gRegor`: its not a framework, but it does show how a minimal amount of css can really improve the look of plain html: http://jsbin.com/juvixufu/10/edit?html,output
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bret (simplifies even more with an autoprefixer)
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@reimersjan successfully running @ownCloud on an Uberspace / @ubernauten. goodbye dropbox #ownYourData (twitter.com/_/status/572440019438309376)
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@whitingx @gcharlton @danbarker @Econsultancy @SlackHQ - @adactio's work with 'webmentions' - https://adactio.com/journal/6495 - is an interesting approach (twitter.com/_/status/572443087454244865)
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tantek good morning #indiewebcamp!
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Loqi tantek: pwcc left you a message 6 hours, 30 minutes ago: I published the post on getting structured data correct. https://peterwilson.cc/getting-microformats-right/
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tantek and hey that's a lot of ats
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tantek ah it's a lamenting of the death of site-local(-presented) comments
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tantek hey ben_thatmustbeme we should be promoting IWC Cambridge on the homepage!
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tantek !tell pwcc read it. Is an invisible h-card really the best approach? It looks like your post permalink has a visible name and bio in the left column - could that be your author h-card instead?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek hmm - speaking of image caching, e.g. of h-card / profile / nickname cache etc., looks like FB also does some amount of image caching
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tantek this copy of POSSE copy https://www.facebook.com/tantek.celik/posts/10101528752664203 is using a "logo" or page image that is > 24hrs old.
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KevinMarks http://www.wired.com/2015/03/wired-dot-com-from-the-devs/ wired now running on WordPress - should we pitch them plugins?
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gregorlove.com edited /Events (+1011) "archive+next hwc" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /Main_Page (+0) "/* Homebrew Website Club */ next" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /next-hwc (+0) "next" (view diff)
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tantek Thanks gRegor` !
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tantek can you update https://indiewebcamp.com/#IndieWebCamp also to be in the style of how it was before when it linked to the next IWC?
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tantek since we have IWC Cambridge in 17 days!
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tantek let me see if I can find a history page
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tantek s/history/historical
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Loqi tantek meant to say: let me see if I can find a historical page
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gRegor` huh?
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gRegor` "before" is a little vague
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tantek before 2015
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tantek I'll find an example
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tantek maybe I can fix it
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tantek.com edited /Main_Page (+1620) "/* IndieWebCamp */ add IWC Cambridge 2015 info since it's in 17 days!" (view diff)
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tantek there - surgical edit done
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tantek I kept the "2015" heading so we have easy way to find other IWC 2015 planning / events
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tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/#IndieWebCamp
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gregorlove.com edited /Events (+1004) "/* 2015 */ +2015-02-11" (view diff)
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tantek oh huh - I wondered what had happened to that one
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gregorlove.com edited /Template:Homebrew_Website_Club (+108) "April HWC" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com created /events/2015-04-08-homebrew-website-club (+4355) "hwc" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com created /events/2015-04-22-homebrew-website-club (+4355) "hwc" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /Events (-16) "/* Upcoming */ no Chi 3/25; +next next" (view diff)
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gRegor` tantek: cool cool
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@rhiaro Anyone know any good history of social media/networks [survey] papers / timelines that go to *more recently* than 2010? @emax #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/572471226582601729)
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aaronpk rhiaro: there's always https://indiewebcamp.com/site-deaths
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aaronpk :P
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Loqi aaronpk: pwcc left you a message 7 hours, 56 minutes ago: Loqi doesn't understand tell commands within slack - is it best to stick to Slack DMs? ref: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-03-02/line/1425292914904
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aaronpk hmm yeah... that's gonna take some fiddling to make that work
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tantek in terms of indieweb based comms - has anyone tried sharing/posting Firefox Hello links on their personal comms pages (like mine is at /contact ) ? e.g. people are posting them on Twitter: https://twitter.com/search?f=realtime&q=hello.firefox.com
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tantek I haven't setup a Firefox Hello link yet
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GWG What is Firefox Hello?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Firefox Hello" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Firefox+Hello&summary=prompted+by+GWG+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-03-02%2Fline%2F1425324322592
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tantek totally fair
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tantek Firefox Hello is https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/hello/
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loqi.me created /Firefox_Hello (+88) "prompted by GWG https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-03-02/line/1425324322592 and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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aaronpk now i'm wondering what it would take to get me to stop using IRC as a reader
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aaronpk since it is basically my primary reader at the moment
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tantek one *big* thing that IRC clients (e.g. Colloquy) have over *everything* else (including Slack) is the very high message display density
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tantek so much design-cheese in all other "readers"
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aaronpk yes, which is good for certain things, and not so good for others
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tantek whereas e.g. in Colloquy, majority of messages take *one* line of text.
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tantek name: message … (right aligned) hh:mm time
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tantek no other system, reader etc. touches that
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randall.bleeds.info edited /2015/Cambridge/Guest_List (+325) "/* Participants */" (view diff)
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tantek really hope that's a personal domain
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tantek because that's kinda hilarious
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tantek aaronpk - the other aspect is the near zero latency
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tantek of IRC clients
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tantek both of those are *very* hard problems to solve: (1) good high information density design, and (2) apparent zero latency
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tantek thus that's those are the challenges for any *reader*
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tilgovi tantek: which domain?
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Loqi tilgovi: tantek left you a message on 11/13 at 3:10pm: rather than 140-char limited back/forth on Twitter (this thread https://twitter.com/tilgovi/status/533017979575746561 ) - I'd suggest (re)doing such discussions here on IRC - it's a much better medium for that. Plus better archives than Twitter. ;)
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Loqi tilgovi: tantek left you a message on 11/13 at 3:13pm: Next challenge: let's see you start posting notes (AKA generic tweets) on *your own site* and never directly on Twitter, optionally POSSEing copies to Twitter. Way more important than webmentions of comments of comments on someone else's site. http://indiewebcamp.com/ownyourdata and /selfdogfood
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tilgovi wow, okay, I'm not talking in here enough clearly.
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tilgovi Those are old messages.
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tantek tilgovi: bleeds.info lol
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tilgovi oh, yeah
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tilgovi my middle name starts with a 'b'
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tilgovi :)
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tilgovi I affectionately referred to randall bleeds as my alter emo
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tilgovi *refer
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tilgovi btw if you do have to use slack for any reason you can go to your preferences (hidden under the arrow next to your name in the bottom left) -> message display -> compact
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tilgovi it's pretty clean
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aaronpk tantek: yeah the zero latency thing is pretty important, especially since I have it set up to push to my phone as well
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aaronpk so that'd be a requirement of anything that attempts to replace IRC for me
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@kevinmarks Wondering if there is an #indieweb way to build such backchannels. http://blog.valerieaurora.org/2015/03/01/starting-your-own-feminist-backchannel/ (twitter.com/_/status/572482809043894272)
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GWG We all want to replace IRC, or build on it. Interesting
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gRegor` What is backchannel?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "backchannel" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=backchannel&summary=prompted+by+gRegor%60+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-03-02%2Fline%2F1425325855915
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tantek backchanel is #indiechat
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tantek backchannel is #indiechat
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@pcosdeaf RT @kevinmarks: Wondering if there is an #indieweb way to build such backchannels. http://blog.valerieaurora.org/2015/03/01/starting-your-own-feminist-backchannel/ (twitter.com/_/status/572484970414931969)
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loqi.me created /backchannel (+52) "prompted by gRegor` https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-03-02/line/1425325855915 and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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gRegor` backchanel is perfume for your back.
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gregorlove.com edited /backchannel (+410) "expand" (view diff)
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gRegor` What is backchannel?
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Loqi A backchannel is a place for conversation that is off-topic, or for a community to communicate safely and privately https://indiewebcamp.com/backchannel
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gRegor` What is indiechat?
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Loqi #indiechat is an IRC channel on freenode.net for off-topic chat for the IndieWebCamp community https://indiewebcamp.com/indiechat
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gregorlove.com edited /indiechat (+34) "see also" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme if you are processing webmentions as soon as they come in you should be able to get very low latency
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aaronpk yes same with PuSH
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aaronpk right now I actually get about <500ms delay between liking something and it showing up in Woodwind!
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: so far AFAIK no one has actually done so however outside of IRC, with the exception of maybe Facebook Messenger chat (web-based UI even)
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tantek aaronpk, you need <200ms to "appear" as zero latency
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aaronpk yeah, we're pretty close
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aaronpk i think most of that delay is my site's fault, because I do a bunch of crap before I send the PuSH notification
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ben_thatmustbeme so my idea was to obscure IRC as really just a low latency pipe for communication
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ben_thatmustbeme direct messaging via IRC and private messaging by post/webmention would be the same thing aside from plumbing, thats what my next project is
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KevinMarks Is this an incipient site death? http://venturebeat.com/2015/03/02/googles-sundar-pichai-heres-how-were-taking-apart-google-and-rethinking-it/
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ben_thatmustbeme i don't think so, sounds like they are changing G+ into instagram though
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tantek.com edited /code-of-conduct-examples (+577) "explicitly add BRUCON anti-harassment policy as another CC-BY-SA example, since they explain why, as well as link to criticisms of Ada Initiative policy and actions" (view diff)
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tantek what is IWC?
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Loqi IndieWebCamps are brainstorming and building events where IndieWeb creators gather semi-regularly to meet in person, share ideas, and collaborate on IndieWeb design, UX, & code for their own sites https://indiewebcamp.com/IWC
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tantek what is next IWC?
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Loqi https://indiewebcamp.com/next-iwc
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tantek what is 2015/Cambridge?
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tantek hmm
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tantek what is 2015 Cambridge?
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Loqi https://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Cambridge
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tantek oh right this is the summary in the event in the h-entry problem
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aaronpk if you add explicit p-summary tag it'll work
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tantek aaronpk - there is an explicit p-summary tag
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aaronpk the code just doesn't auto-add the p-summary if it already finds "p-summary" on the page
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tantek it's nested, that's the problem
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aaronpk oh right
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tantek h-entry h-event p-summary
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tantek.com edited /2015/Cambridge (-48) "/* Questions for Organizers */ correct the current known rooms" (view diff)
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tantek is anyone staying for / going to libreplanet after IWC Cambridge? http://libreplanet.org/2015/program/
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tantek this is hilarious and could apply to any "blog"'s posting patterns http://southtwelfth.tumblr.com/post/106929405453/tumblellar-evolution-lifespan-and-death-an
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kylewm KevinMarks: ben_thatmustbeme: certainly sounds like a site death to me
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kylewm maybe it will fade away like Google Talk rather than being shut off all at once like Buzz
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tantek sounds more like a rebranding with possible redirects
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tantek checks stream.google.com
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tantek a-ha photos.google.com redirects to https://plus.google.com/photos
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tantek speaking of latency - I keep forgetting how bad G+ is at latency - at *everything* (clicking anything causes a stall and stupid waiting cursor)
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tantek.com edited /Firefox (+53) "see also" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Firefox_Hello (+395) "dfn, brainstorming, see also" (view diff)
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tantek huh - interesting - I wonder if this is supposed to work like a Google Hangout: https://twitter.com/vegan_sandwich/status/572523065973866496
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tantek Loqi?
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@vegan_sandwich Join us March 2nd 8pm EST GMT -5:00 on The Vegan Sandwich. https://hello.firefox.com/jY3A7a3dOpE http://thevegansandwich.com/call-podcast/ https://twitter.com/vegan_sandwich/status/572523065973866496/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/572523065973866496)
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benwerd If I had a way of recording Hello calls, I'd use that for the Known office hours videos
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Loqi benwerd: tantek left you a message 1 week ago: could you post an indie event and FB POSSE copy for this week's HWC meetup in SF? http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-02-25-homebrew-website-club#URLs Thanks!
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benwerd Oh, oops :/
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tantek lol nm kylewm took care of it ;)
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tantek speaking of which
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tantek let's post one for the 11th
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benwerd thanks kylewm, sorry for being lame
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benwerd Mozilla SF?
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tantek the place on 4th & Townsend
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tantek blanking
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tantek.com edited /Firefox_Hello (+89) "note use for office hours" (view diff)
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tantek benwerd: http://thecreamerysf.com/
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aaronpk man I can't wait until wifi security cameras support micropub :P
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benwerd ok
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Loqi [mention] http://werd.io/2015/homebrew-website-club-march-11-2015 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-03-11-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] http://werd.io/2015/homebrew-website-club-march-11-2015 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-03-11-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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audiens.de edited /2015/Germany/Guest_List (+330) "/* Participants */" (view diff)
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benwerd OK, event is up in the usual places.
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tantek benwerd++ thanks good sir!
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Loqi benwerd has 59 karma
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tantek wat
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KevinMarks__ last time Creamery closed halfway through adn we moved to Iron Cctus
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KevinMarks__ s/ctus/actus/
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Loqi KevinMarks__ meant to say: last time Creamery closed halfway through adn we moved to Iron Cactus
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tantek should we do it a half hour earlier then?
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tantek presumably they closed at 7pm?
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KevinMarks__ hm, they claim to be open until 9pm
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tantek and their website doesn't show hours
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KevinMarks__ so google got 9pm form somewhere
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tantek I trust Yelp more which says til 19:30 http://www.yelp.com/biz/the-creamery-san-francisco-3
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tantek on Wednesday
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kylewm yeah that's really strange, 9pm every day but wednesday and sunday
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tantek shall we do 17:00-19:00 instead then just to be sure? with "quietish writing hour"
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tantek benwerd thoughts?
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KevinMarks__ foursquare shows likely open times based on checkins Wed 8:00 AM–6:00 PM
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tantek KevinMarks: however this shows you were there starting at 18:30 http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-02-11-homebrew-website-club
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tantek thus your "halfway through" likely means ~19:00
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KevinMarks__ I was late
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tantek.com edited /events/2015-03-11-homebrew-website-club (+207) "/* Where */ SF The Creamery" (view diff)
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kylewm yeah i think they closed at 7:30pm like yelp says
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tantek kylewm: shall we shift everything a half hour earlier then?
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kylewm we got started a little bit late and stayed for longer than an hour
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tantek.com edited /events/2015-03-11-homebrew-website-club (+84) "/* URLs */ indie event, fb posse copy" (view diff)
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kylewm i would prefer not to move earlier, it's hard to get there at 6:30 coming up from the peninsual
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tantek.com edited /events/2015-03-11-homebrew-website-club (+27) "/* Notes */ RSVP with a time slot (is that a thing worth collecting examples for?)" (view diff)
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benwerd I'm coming from three blocks away, but earlier than 6:30 is tough for me too
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tantek ok let's stick with current times and just try to start prompt
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tantek I'll get there early in case to do some writing in case anyone else wants to and maybe I can grab a decent table
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tantek also I have to go at 19:00
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KevinMarks__ how about we go for Iron Cactus instead of Creamery, then we'er in the same building but int he side that stays open
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kylewm oh, that's different... i'm happy to come up earlier if it's because you haev to leave at 1900
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kylewm ^tantek
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tantek kylewm ok cool - didn't want to impose since it sounded like there were other constraints
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tantek KevinMarks: in my experience Creamery is more ok with folks coming/going, whereas Iron Cactus expects more of a transactional order a meal, sit down at a table, eat, leave.
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KevinMarks__ ah, OK
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tantek plus Creamery has more diverse / smaller eating/drinking options for snacking and such
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pwcc Hi indiewebcamp
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Loqi pwcc: tantek left you a message 6 hours, 4 minutes ago: read it. Is an invisible h-card really the best approach? It looks like your post permalink has a visible name and bio in the left column - could that be your author h-card instead?
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pwcc tantek: I tried that approach initially without success, Goog was still crediting the commenter. Moving the h-entry might work come to think of it.
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tantek indeed - are you able to move the h-entry hentry to the body?
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tantek the other thing to consider is to *only* use microformats2 on the comments and commenter info
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tantek that should also simplify your markup
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tantek rather - no microformats1 on the comments and commenter
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tantek microformats2 everywhere
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tantek and microformats1 only for info about the post / h-entry
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tantek and its author, you :)
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pwcc There's a div around the columns I can target with the h-entry & mark up the header.
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tantek sounds like that could work
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pwcc But, yes simplifying commenter markup may help - will need to look at classes WP puts in there by default.
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pwcc Hopingto get it into WP by the 19th so might refine once I have it in the templates.
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pwcc As in, rather than editing the patterns - the mf classes are benign for styles, etc
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@dissolve333 IndieWebCamp Cambridge is fast approaching. Feeling completely unprepared. (btmb.me s/7p) (twitter.com/_/status/572540670411325440)
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tantek pwcc: yes experience has shown that's a better approach
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tantek keeping classes for mfs and styling separate
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tantek hmm just realized benwerd doesn't POSSE his events to Twitter
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tantek ooh exciting: http://stream.withknown.com/2015/known-075-has-left-the-building
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tantek benwerd++ congrats on shipping import from Blogger!!!
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benwerd tantek: I need to rewrite my events plugin entirely
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benwerd and thank you!
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benwerd tomorrow we ship a few more things on the hosted side (already up at https://withknown.com/pro and https://withknown.com/education, although there will be revisions)
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tantek benwerd, the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that any post type should have some sort of "plain text" equivalent that can be POSSE'd anywhere, including Twitter, SMS, notifications, watches etc.
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benwerd Agree completely
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tantek the whole deep design dive experience with "likes" convinced me of that
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benwerd We may actually move to a single post rather than lots of little post types, but that's another story - we're doing a redesign after tomorrow
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tantek would really appreciate your team's UX perspective on that
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benwerd (Not confirmed, just on the table)
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tantek the # of post types that is
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tantek because I thinkt that's a major issue that the silos disagree on
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tantek wait is this live?!? https://withknown.com/pro/
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aaronpk I was also going to suggest that because of the reader issue
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aaronpk readers that don't understand specific post types (like a bunch of the ones I publish) are going to need to display *something*
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tantek aaronpk - right - readers are one solid use-case of plain text / notification first design
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benwerd tantek: It's what I'll call soft-live :) Tomorrow it'll be hard-live.
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tantek benwerd ok I'll wait to trumpet it then :P
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tantek ;)
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benwerd :D
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tantek (so exciting!)
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pwcc tantek: yep, I've been burnt by that before. My class names are quite opinionated these days...
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tantek pwcc one of the motivations for the explicit prefixing of mf2 class names
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tantek to avoid even minimal conflicts/overlaps
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@kylewm2 I’m going to #indieweb HWC next Wednesday at CreamerySF. Join us! http://werd.io/2015/homebrew-website-club-march-11-2015 (twitter.com/_/status/572543689450393600)
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benwerd One thing I didn't mention in the blog post is that the new version of Known has the easier links to brid.gy
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@indiewebcamp RT @kylewm2: I’m going to #indieweb HWC next Wednesday at CreamerySF. Join us! http://werd.io/2015/homebrew-website-club-march-11-2015 (twitter.com/_/status/572543941951664128)
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benwerd I should have included that
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Loqi I agree
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tantek benwerd - that's very much worth including, especially if you can mention it as easier social network comment integration or something
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tantek jargon--
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Loqi jargon has 0 karma
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benwerd Yep, revised to include
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benwerd jargon had 1 karma?!
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kylewm benwerd++ just checking it on my withknown.com account, very slick!
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Loqi benwerd has 60 karma
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tantek how do we find the permalinks of retweets?
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benwerd kylewm: we're already getting lots of support requests to track auth state! Which means people are using it. I'd love to chat about it next Wednesday :)
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tantek a-ha bridgy to the rescue!
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kylewm oh cool, definitely
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pwcc tantek: y, I namespace all classes & reserve the mf spaces - https://github.com/peterwilsoncc/styleguide/commit/6930ad86c333c8b27547bd7be4eb53aae87f9f0d
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kylewm annoying situation -- have to leave my site hooked up to pubsubhubbub.appspot.com so haxor can look into it
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@t @indiewebcamp @kylewm2 I'll be there early 17:00-19:00 for quiet writing and open discussions. Have to leave early. (ttk.me t4_w4) (twitter.com/_/status/572546808196419584)