#indiewebcamp 2015-03-04

2015-03-04 UTC
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dietrich
tantek: bret aaronpk yah i think i can do 11th, let me check the office calendar...
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Loqi
dietrich: tantek left you a message 1 hour, 22 minutes ago: any of you (aaronpk, dietrich, bret) able to host HWC PDX on the 11th? I'm guessing aaronpk may be out of town. http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-03-11-homebrew-website-club
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bret
that would be great dietrich
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tantek
dietrich awesome
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bret
dietrich: When you confirm, I'll put up a calagator post
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dietrich
bret: tantek we're on the calendar. all systems go.
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bret
cool thanks dietrich!
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tantek
Awesome! bret can you update the wiki page?
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bret
sure
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bret.io
edited /events/2015-03-11-homebrew-website-club (+12) "/* RSVP */ see everyone there!"
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bret
dietrich: i rsvpd you on the wiki. is that okay?
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bret
should have asked before, sorry
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dietrich
bret: of course!
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bret
🙌
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bret
OK PDX is setup
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bret
ill spread the word
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tantek
woot1
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Loqi
giggles
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elf-pavlik
aaronpk, does any tool exist that would take on input data in microformats html or microformats json and output form-enceded microformats? i want to add such information to https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_syntax#Serialization
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aaronpk
not that I know of, what is the use case?
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elf-pavlik
thinking about micropub and sending AS2.0 object serialized as microformats
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Loqi
Homebrew Website Club PDX on Tuesday, Mar 3, 6:30pm at Mozilla
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bret
shit the date
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aaronpk
it's... kinda messy
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aaronpk
also the url is wrong
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elf-pavlik
as in examples from http://www.w3.org/TR/activitystreams-core/
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aaronpk
also is the ipfs blurb correct? it's not on the wiki
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bret
gah, why didnt those things stick?
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bret
aaronpk: tjgillies and i have been playing around with ipfs
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bret
he has his indiweb site running on it
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aaronpk
add it to the wiki!
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tantek
elf-pavlik: that's "use as2" is not a *user* use-case
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tantek
better for us to figure out the other direction
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tantek
how a receiver of form-encoded microformats could convert to AS2 upon receiving it if it needs that
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tantek
elf-pavlik: the examples in as-core are horrible
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tantek
I'm working on reviewing them and I would hate to see anyone try to publish or consume them
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elf-pavlik
tantek, did you just read them for the first time?
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tantek
they are overly complicated or just outright wrong
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tantek
elf-pavlik: I thought I did but apparently I missed the abuse of <link> and <meta>
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tantek
none of the examples reflect any current practices
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elf-pavlik
as you may guess jasnell doesn't use microformats much ...
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tantek
it's like they were written out of thin air, completely impractically
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tantek
elf-pavlik: I'm shockd because we made much more progress on the wiki page
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@kevinmarks
@Shoq we're already working on the indieweb check http://indiewebcamp.com
(twtr.io/wr1nBgD48Y)
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Loqi
slack/snarfed: elf-pavlik just fyi <https://github.com/snarfed/activitystreams-unofficial> converts between mf2 (json or html) and AS, in case you haven't seen it
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tantek
snarfed, which version of AS
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Loqi
slack/snarfed: it doesn't convert btw mf2 and micropub (is form encoded) yet, but that would be a great addition!
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Loqi
slack/snarfed: tantek: it uses one or two 2.0 features but not many
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Loqi
slack/snarfed: so mostly 1.0 I guess
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Loqi
slack/snarfed: elf-pavlik: nope
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Loqi
slack/snarfed: added to my queue
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elf-pavlik
also can't find info about u-uid http://microformats.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=u-uid
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bret
aaronpk: thanks for catching those errors, at work and got distracted I think
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aaronpk
bret: cool. you already got people in #pdxtech excited about the meetup tomorrow ;)
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elf-pavlik
i also wonder how it differes from u-url
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tantek
the same way canonical does
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elf-pavlik
u-url - entry permalink URL
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elf-pavlik
u-uid - unique entry ID
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tantek
u-url may be used for multiple permalinks
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tantek
e.g. shortlink version
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elf-pavlik
what is canonical?
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Loqi
The canonical copy of a piece of content is the “truest” copy https://indiewebcamp.com/canonical
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tantek
also rel=canonical
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elf-pavlik
ok so it sounds like JSON-LD @id
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tantek
u-uid is like @id - well that seems reasonable - hopefully the meaning is similar enough
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tantek
in practice all working u-uid on the web have been u-url
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tantek
a stronger requirement of "linked" content as it were ;)
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tantek
(as opposed to unlinked dead urns)
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elf-pavlik
can u-uid 'not be' u-url' ?
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@kevinmarks
"@mkramer: Notes on providing alt text for twitter images http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2015/01/notes-on-providing-alt-text-for-twitter-images/ via @adelevie" trying to fix silo accessibility #indieweb
(twtr.io/wr3ht1gSFU)
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elf-pavlik
i understood u-uid = the canonical u-url
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elf-pavlik
and if something has u- it implies HTTP URI - URL
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elf-pavlik
snarfed++
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Loqi
snarfed has 90 karma
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Loqi
slack/snarfed: fwiw the a-u library puts tag uris in u-uid, which are uris but not (afaik) http urls
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Loqi
slack/snarfed: I now wish I'd used real urls instead, but I kept the tag uris so that the uids stayed consistent
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elf-pavlik
'u-*' for URL properties, e.g. 'u-photo'
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elf-pavlik
which scheme those non http: URIs use?
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elf-pavlik
afk
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Loqi
slack/snarfed: yup. I was converting from AS, and already populating u-url with the permalink, so I put I'd into u-uid
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Loqi
slack/snarfed: elf-pavlik: tag uris, like I mentioned: P <http://taguri.org>
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@Shoq
RT @kevinmarks: @Shoq we're already working on the indieweb check http://indiewebcamp.com
(twtr.io/wr4YEfNpt4)
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Loqi
slack/snarfed: er, "I put id into u-uid"
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elf-pavlik
tantek, i struggle with interpreting tag: URI as URL :|
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elf-pavlik
better just goes to sleep... 2:40AM here @|@
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tantek
where is tag: URI? modern spec usage is URL.
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Loqi
slack/snarfed: elf-pavlik, tantek: my fault. tag uris aren't URLs. I incorrectly used them in mf2 u-uid. ignore me
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elf-pavlik
thx
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Loqi
slack/snarfed: I was just explaining the existing code
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elf-pavlik
snarfed, no worries i just try to clarify u-uid
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elf-pavlik
local + relative scheme in https://url.spec.whatwg.org/#urls
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elf-pavlik
snarfed, does brid.gy keep cache of publicly shared microformats ?
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elf-pavlik
i would find it interesting to query it with something like http://client.linkeddatafragments.org/ :D
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elf-pavlik
aaronpk, tantek imagine querying public indieweb posts and microformats knowledge graph with something like above ^
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elf-pavlik
aaronpk, snarfed try pick example query "Events that took place in the Trentino region" ping rhiaro
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elf-pavlik
talking about (IndieWeb ;) events using schema.org ... http://youtu.be/XXw8g-FbemI
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elf-pavlik
brid.gy could harvest data for such knowledge graph with query interface
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@psyartpsychill
PbMorlen: Check out my new book page at Amazon @ http://target.georiot.com/badlink.html?badlink=http://redirect.booklinker.net:51001/Proxy.ashx Book IV Ready to go!! Ebook soon. #Fantasy #Visionary #IndieAuth…
(twtr.io/wr8gXWE9mf)
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elf-pavlik
gnight o/
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snarfed
elf-pavlik: bridgy stores a limited amount of as/mf2 data for all silo activities and responses it sees. doesn't include location.
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snarfed
it would take a little work to munge it into a format that's easily queryable like you describe, but only a little. happy to help if you want to try that!
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snarfed
elf-pavlik: you might also be interested in https://github.com/bear/indie-stats (described in https://snarfed.org/indie-stats )
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elf-pavlik
snarfed++ thx!
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Loqi
snarfed has 91 karma
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elf-pavlik
let's talk about querying indieweb public data once rhiaro wakes up :)
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elf-pavlik
gnight o/
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kylewm
i feel like it would be more interesting to query a corpus of indieweb sites than a corpus of silo responses
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KevinMarks_
Doesn't that come along with building a reader, kylewm ?
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KevinMarks_
It was a nice part of
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kylewm
yeah that's kind of what i was getting at :) I was thinking I should start storing raw mf2 data in my reader
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KevinMarks_
s/of/of shrewdness /
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Loqi
KevinMarks_ meant to say: It was a nice part of shrewdness 
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kylewm
ah but you can't query shrewdness with SPARQL
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GWG
aaronpk: Pfefferle got around to updating Semantic Linkbacks on the repository. That function I use is now stable.
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kylewm
soliciting clever ideas, i want to deduplicate originals and syndicated copies in my feed reader... i started looking for u-syndication on the originals but it turns out most people (incl me) don't publish those in the h-feed
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kylewm
i don't really want to fetch every permalink every time
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kylewm
/original-post-discovery woudl work for a subset of the tweets but none of the instagram photos
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Loqi
slack/pwcc: kylewm: if you're happy with rough, can you standardise whitespace, remove formatting and generate a hash?
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Loqi
slack/pwcc: Or not, now I write it it doesn't look as easy as I first thought
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kylewm
hmm interesting idea pwcc. just a substring match would work pretty well for a lot of tweets
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kylewm
photos is still a tough case, but i guess lots of photos have a caption
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kylewm
substring match if you remove trailing links, perma-citations and ellipses
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kylewm
I could just campaign for people to put their syndication links in the h-feed :)
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Loqi
slack/pwcc: Y, that's the sort of thing I am thinking.
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Loqi
slack/pwcc: Nah, RSS will never take off.
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tantek
kylewm: that's interesting about the lack of syndication links in people's h-feed
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tantek
one approach is to ask the UI question - is there a good reason to put syndication links on the visible h-feed? (there may be)
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tantek
I was certainly considering it - as part of including webaction buttons on posts in my h-feed
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tantek
that may be a way to approach campaigning for people to put their syndication links in the h-feed - that is, give them a good UX reason to do so
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kylewm
i think there's a very strong argument for putting webactions in the feed,
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kylewm
harder to justify syndication links
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tantek
kylewm: right - the webactions in the feed is what I discovered was important during IWC UK 2014
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tantek
in practice for me the syndication links are not much different than the webactions buttons
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tantek
because the webactions fallbacks include links to the syndicated copies
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KevinMarks_
Sounds like the problem we had with rel-tag and people putting tags "under the post"
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tantek
and I for example expose Twitter replies' syndication links as "View Conversation on Twitter"
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tantek
KevinMarks: not quite - that was a markup problem, this is UX incentive problem
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KevinMarks_
Well, similar - the Syndication links aren't seen as part of the post.
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Loqi
slack/pwcc: Is something like this possible &lt;indieweb:sydication&gt;twitter.com/etc/&lt;/indieweb:sydication&gt;
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GWG
I'm working on Syndication Links right now, coincidentally.
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Loqi
slack/pwcc: Better than providing as links as it lets the client do what it's good as.
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GWG
I looked up and saw this chat.
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Loqi
slack/pwcc: s/sydication/syndication
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kylewm
pwcc: you could just put empty/invisible <a> links but that's kind of a last resort
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kylewm
what is invisible metadata?
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loqi.me
created /invisible_metadata (+44) "prompted by kylewm https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-03-03/line/1425448803395 and dfn added by kylewm"
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tantek
Loqi can't see it - it's invisible :)
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colintedford
!tell aaronpk In the logs, the second of the angle brackets around any url posted from slack is getting included in the href (example: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-03-03/line/1425431665764).
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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colintedford.com
edited /User:Colintedford.com (+248) "/* Note names */ Method seems good after a couple months."
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maymay.net
edited /WordPress_Plugins (+255) "/* POSSE Plugins */ Add another couple WordPress plugins that have POSSE-friendly features."
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maymay.net
edited /WordPress_Plugins (-1) "/* POSSE Plugins */ Fix broken link."
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cweiske
gitorious was bought by gitlab, and gitorious.org will shut down end of may
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elf-pavlik
kylewm, what did you mean by "i feel like it would be more interesting to query a corpus of indieweb sites than a corpus of silo responses" ?
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snarfed
elf-pavlik: bridgy is a corpus of silo responses :P
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elf-pavlik
oh, got it :)
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elf-pavlik
one could crow more data starting from this
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elf-pavlik
and putting it in an index/cache can offer really fast queries
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elf-pavlik
s/crawl/crow/
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snarfed
for silo data, their own search services are already way better and more complete than we could provide
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snarfed
and kylewm is right, for indie sites, woodwind or indie-stats are probably better to start from
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elf-pavlik
have you seen http://the-federation.info/ ?
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nischenwerk.de
edited /2015/Germany/Guest_List (+276) "/* Participants */"
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nischenwerk.de
edited /2015/Germany/Guest_List (+28) "/* Participants */"
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wwelves.org perpetual-tripper
edited /2015/Germany/Guest_List (+343) "/* Participants */ + elf Pavlik"
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elf-pavlik
michielbdejong, ^
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elf-pavlik
jancborchardt, hugoroyd ^
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michielbdejong
elf-pavlik: yes! Just got a notification because Loqi mentioned my Twitter handle which is also my irc user :)
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elf-pavlik
oh, true :D
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elf-pavlik
rhiaro, Düsseldorf this May? :) https://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Germany/Guest_List
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michielbdejong
elf-pavlik: maybe I will! Haven't planned that far ahead yet, but would be nice
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elf-pavlik
michielbdejong++
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Loqi
michielbdejong has 7 karma
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michielbdejong
Just decided this morning that I will move to Beograd on Monday
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elf-pavlik
agile!
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elf-pavlik
how it goes with indiehosters?
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elf-pavlik
scor, hi o/ do you know by any chance if people use microformats in drupal?
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scor
elf-pavlik: no, not that I know of
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elf-pavlik
and with RDFa / Microdata, do you know which one people use more out in the wild?
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scor
on drupal sites or in general?
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elf-pavlik
in drupal sites
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scor
RDFa since most of it is baked in
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elf-pavlik
scor++
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Loqi
scor has 1 karma
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elf-pavlik
i would like to help Edgeryders with enabling RDFa starting with their profile pages https://edgeryders.eu/en/users/pavlik-elf
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@elfpavlik
@heluecht #IndieWeb people also participate in @SocialWebWG, @aaronpk will come there! did you know http://indiewebcamp.com/micropub @MrZYX @slvrbckt
(twtr.io/wrnkQAER8G)
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elf-pavlik
scor, you may like to check out https://indiecert.net/welcome
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elf-pavlik
remembers https://vimeo.com/56888383 Simplified Sign On with WebID and Drupal
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scor
cool
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hugoroyd
michielbdejong: where is beograd?
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michielbdejong
hugoroyd: it's in Serbia, a little bit east from Italy
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michielbdejong
i can recommend Budapest to everyone by the way, really sad to be leaving here after one month
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elf-pavlik
scor, thanks again for this suggestion http://indiewebcamp.com/indieauth#RDFa
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cweiske
fkooman, cool idea that indiecert
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cweiske
so I can use it as my indieauth server? as <link rel="authorization_endpoint"...>?
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fkooman
cweiske: it works a bit different, you publish your cert fingerprint on your home page
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fkooman
cweiske: check out the screencasts on https://www.tuxed.net/fkooman/blog/indiecert.html or try it on https://indiecert.net
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fkooman
cweiske: but that should be easy to implement...
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cweiske
does indiecert implement the indieauth protocol?
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fkooman
cweiske: it is almost the same, but has some changes
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fkooman
cweiske: like returning json on the verify step, not requiring client_id on the auth request
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cweiske
ah, ok
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cweiske
I wouldn't like to implement an indiecert-specific protocol but rather rely on the indieauth protocol
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fkooman
cweiske: i guess I could sniff the 'Accept' header on verify requests to return this weird uriencoded post body on verify requests :)
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cweiske
oh, it isn't really weird
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cweiske
standard www-form-urlencode
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fkooman
ah, i thought it was mostly used for POST requests, not for responses
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fkooman
OAuth also uses JSON responses
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fkooman
cweiske: also, i use a seperate endpoint for the verify step
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fkooman
as a post on the auth endpoint is used for the user to confirm the authentication
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marcthiele.com
edited /2015/Germany/Guest_List (+0) "/* Participants */"
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@btconf
Don't forget to add yourself to the Guest List if you attend the #IndieWebCamp Germany during #btconf. https://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Germany/Guest_List
(twtr.io/wrxhiRAPhw)
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@elfpavlik
RT @btconf: Don't forget to add yourself to the Guest List if you attend the #IndieWebCamp Germany during #btconf. https://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Germany/Guest_List
(twtr.io/wry19vtXj0)
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elf-pavlik
adding rel="me" href="irc://irc.freenode.net/elf-pavlik,isnick"
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silverbucket.net
edited /2015/Germany/Guest_List (+408) "/* Participants */ added Nick Jennings"
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GWG
Morning.
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mapkyca
Morning :)
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GWG
Good morning mapkyca
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david.shanske.com
edited /WordPress_Data (-107) "/* Response */"
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david.shanske.com
edited /WordPress_Data (+18) "/* Syndication */"
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cweiske
fkooman, how do I get the fingerprint for an already installed client certificate?
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cweiske
chromium shows the sha1 and sha256 fingerprints in the settings
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cweiske
but not in the format you expect
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cweiske
it'd be cool if there was a tool that simply took the copied text
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cweiske
4B 51 23 4F 8F E1 B7 D0 89 F5 7E 9B F4 EF CE 23
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cweiske
D3 00 83 1A 6B A4 19 74 E6 36 44 4E 51 A1 33 50
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cweiske
and converted it to that di URL scheme
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elf-pavlik
cweiske, fkooman went out somewhere... he'll see highlight once back
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@rektide
.@mattblaze "how physically secure is your server mrs clinton?" "locked in my broomcloset in my guarded estate" #ManorCompute++ #IndieWeb
(twtr.io/wsFuA5rb6R)
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GWG
pfefferle: Thank you for the update
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pfefferle
GWG your welcome… I currently work on i18n
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GWG
pfefferle: Oh?
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pfefferle
GWG for the semantic linkbacks text snippets
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GWG
I thought you had that.
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GWG
No pot file?
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GWG
looks
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pfefferle
GWG not yet it is a bit tricky with the german articles (der, die, das) for the post-types
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GWG
Okay.
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GWG
pfefferle: Hope it works out. No one understands my attempts to use what little German I know
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pfefferle
GWG me too! ;)
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GWG
pfefferle: Your English is very good. Only an occasional grammar issue
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GWG
I know you have said otherwise
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pfefferle
GWG thanks :)
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pfefferle
GWG I give my best!
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GWG
In other news, my Syndication Links plugin has got a contributor.
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GWG
I consider any interest in anything I wrote to indicate that I am doing something right
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kylewm.com
edited /2014/SF (+3) "/* Questions for Organizers */ add millisecond precision to irc permalink "what are we going to do?""
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elf-pavlik
good afternoon :)
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rhiaro.co.uk
edited /2015/Germany/Guest_List (+243) "rhiaro rsvp"
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elf-pavlik
rhiaro++
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Loqi
rhiaro has 14 karma
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fkooman
ah, cweiske just left :(
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@sirmlivesey
@sirmlivesey Not that the internet is compatible with sovereignty at all. More work needs to be done on identity and privacy. #indieweb
(twtr.io/wsV4feWPMb)
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tantek
good morning #indiewebcamp!
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aaronpk
good morning!
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Loqi
aaronpk: colintedford left you a message 10 hours, 53 minutes ago: In the logs, the second of the angle brackets around any url posted from slack is getting included in the href (example: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-03-03/line/1425431665764).
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aaronpk
indiecert looks neat!
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aaronpk
that's an ineteresting problem with URL autolinnking
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snarfed
what is indiecert
#
aaronpk
tantek: does your function handle that appropriately?
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fkooman
aaronpk: thanks! :)
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kylewm
cassis does auto_link("this is a <https://test.com/1234> of the autolinker"); => "this is a <<a class="auto-link" href="https://test.com/1234">https://test.com/1234</a>> of the autolinker"
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kylewm
but auto_link("this is a &lt;https://test.com/1234&gt; of the autolinker"); => "this is a &lt;https://test.com/1234&gt; of the autolinker"
#
kylewm
and it definitely handles parens correctly, I just got done fixing a really annoying bug with that in bridgy and used cassis as a reference
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aaronpk
what about (things like http://this.com)
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kylewm
see previous message
#
aaronpk
i should see if i can just use cassis for the logs
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kylewm
it's good. i would use it if i was in php or js
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aaronpk
i should write a ruby version of it and release just the auto_link function as a gem
#
kylewm
great minds and all that
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tantek
kylewm: whoa awesome!
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tantek
hey thanks for answering the question
#
tantek
yes the trailing paren auto-linking case was a pet peeve of mine (bug in Twitter auto-linking) so I fixed it :)
#
tantek
and yes it works (to include the paren) if there is an open paren in the URL (e.g. some wikipedia URLs)
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kylewm
oh that's interesting and kinda weird -- i'm getting PuSH updates from benwerd now. the hub.topic for his h-feed is "http://werd.io/content/all/?_t=rss"
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tantek
aaronpk, kylewm, apparently I wrote that code > 5 years ago! http://tantek.com/2010/047/t1/links-cassis-auto_link-idempotent-apache-licensed
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gRegor`
What us hub.topic?
#
Loqi
gRegor`: snarfed left you a message on 3/3 at 10:13am: you've seen https://snarfed.org/easy-indieweb-interactions-on-android ? doesn't solve the 'Check out X's tweet' thing specifically, but it does provide for indie reply/like/repost generally
#
gRegor`
What IS hub.topic?
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gRegor`
snarfed: Ooh, Bookmarklet Free looks cool. I will try that out.
#
gRegor`
Is this captured on the wiki anywhere?
#
tantek
what is cassis?
#
Loqi
CASSIS is an acronym for Client And Server Scripting Implementation Subset https://indiewebcamp.com/CASSIS
#
tantek
hmm, a bit jargony
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tantek.com
edited /CASSIS (+8) "update dfn to have more than just abbr expansion"
(view diff)
#
tantek.com
edited /CASSIS (+161) "add Ports / auto_link / Python"
(view diff)
mike-burns and friedcell joined the channel
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@danyork
POSSE, from http://indiewebcamp.com/ RT @mannyju: Publish on Own Site, Syndicate later Elsewhere -@danyork #15NTCnetadvocacy #NTC
(twtr.io/wsaZuhLzNg)
sanduhrs1, tilgovi, almereyda, alanpearce, KartikPrabhu, friedcell and frzn joined the channel
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#
@sarahjeong
is there a way for me to update a wordpress page from command line
(twtr.io/wsfxWzLukL)
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KevinMarks_
Ok outreach squad, ideas?
#
@jg_networks
@sarahjeong wordpress should probably be updated with rm -r
(twtr.io/wsg2uVzLtL)
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GWG
KevinMarks, wp-cli
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GWG
KevinMarks_: We're not a squad.
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GWG
aaronpk: Someone did client certificates for indieauth?
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KevinMarks
she wants to mung a static page
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kylewm
what is mung?
#
GWG
KevinMarks, wp-cli is a cli interface to Wordpress. Not a core product
#
KevinMarks
mung is a verb meaning to transform with code. See the Mac OS Munger function.
#
loqi.me
created /mung (+105) "prompted by kylewm https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-03-04/line/1425497080635 and dfn added by KevinMarks"
(view diff)
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kylewm
KevinMarks++
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Loqi
KevinMarks has 89 karma
verdi__ joined the channel
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kylewm.com
edited /mung (+48) "add jargon file reference"
(view diff)
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gRegor`
What is wp-cli?
#
gRegor`
wp-cli is http://wp-cli.org/
#
loqi.me
created /wp-cli (+55) "prompted by gRegor` https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-03-04/line/1425497410013 and dfn added by gRegor`"
(view diff)
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kylewm
wp-cli is a set of commandline tools for managing [[WordPress]] installations.
#
gRegor`
8)
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gRegor`
Wiki edit races (as a service)
#
Jeena
how would you mark up a "Now playing track ..." thingy with microformats?
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gRegor`
I think mowens (? forget exact username) has examples of that.
#
gRegor`
mko in IRC.
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Jeena
on his/her website they have it as a h-entry and fa-music with p-track p-album and p-artist
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GWG
Jeena: I support a p-listen
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gRegor`
Jeena: I think the album and track attributes are last.fm UIDs. He's PESOS from last.fm iirc
friedcell joined the channel
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Jeena
yeah thats what I want to do too
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gRegor`
I think he has code on Github for that, in Node.
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Jeena
I already have implemented the fetching, now I just want to mark it up in some meaningfull way
#
Jeena
GWG is p-listen something official?
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gRegor`
What is listen?
#
Loqi
A scrobble (AKA a listen) is a passive type of post used to publish a song (music or audio track) that you have listened to https://indiewebcamp.com/listen
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gRegor`
Musicbrainz IDs, not Last.fm
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gRegor`
What is Musicbrainz?
#
gRegor`
Musicbrainz is https://musicbrainz.org/
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loqi.me
created /Musicbrainz (+66) "prompted by gRegor` https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-03-04/line/1425498261463 and dfn added by gRegor`"
(view diff)
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GWG
Jeena, how does something become official if not usage?
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gRegor`
Jeena GWG It's pretty early on and experimental. Try it and iterate, I say.
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Jeena
I don't know, if it is at least described in the microformats.org wiki?
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gRegor`
GWG: Do you have any p-lisens published? If so you should add yourself to /listen#IndieWeb_Examples
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Jeena
and hopefully some day implemented in the microformats parsers
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aaronpk
microformats parsers don't need to know about property names
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gRegor`
Jeena: The parsers will handle it already based on the prefix p-, u-, h-, etc.
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aaronpk
consumers like readers do
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Jeena
ah I see
#
@t
@todrobbins @andyet big fan of talky.io, using it @indiewebcamp @W3C Social Web mtgs. Telecons still need POTS-compat. (ttk.me t4_y2)
(twtr.io/wsj6T9pBbY)
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GWG
gRegor`: Will do when next home. But acegiak uses it too
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gRegor`
acegiak and mko are listed
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Jeena
or is it perhaps a h-product?
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gRegor`
I don't think so. It's not a product you're listing for sale.
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gRegor`
Which I think is the common use-case for h-product
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KevinMarks
that link looked weird in the logs
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KevinMarks
it doesn't like medium URLs with @'s in
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#
wwelves.org perpetual-tripper
created /indiecert (+478) "basic info about IndieCert"
(view diff)
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elf-pavlik
fkooman, ^
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elf-pavlik
what is indiecert?
#
elf-pavlik
what is indiehosters?
#
Loqi
IndieHosters is a new network of independent hosters who offer CMS Software as a Service https://indiewebcamp.com/IndieHosters
#
cweiske
fkooman, do you support cacert.org?
#
wwelves.org perpetual-tripper
edited /indiecert (-13) "made Loqi friendly"
(view diff)
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elf-pavlik
what is indiecert?
#
fkooman
cweiske: i could, but right now the indiecert.net instance only accepts certs signed by indiecert.net CA, not from other CAs, but it is possible to disable the check and allow for all certs..
#
gRegor`
elf-pavlik: A <dfn> around "Indiecert" in the page will make Loqi return the first sentence.
#
Loqi
grins profusely
#
cweiske
I meant the homepage
#
cweiske
is it ok if my homepage's ssl cert is from cacert.org, even if it's not trusted by most browsers?
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fkooman
cweiske: oh no, not right now...
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fkooman
cweiske: i can add the CAcert CA as trusted CA
#
elf-pavlik
fkooman++
#
Loqi
fkooman has 1 karma
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elf-pavlik
what is indiecert?
#
Loqi
IndieCert is a service to authenticate to services around the web without using usernames and passwords https://indiewebcamp.com/indiecert
#
elf-pavlik
gRegor++ thx!
#
Loqi
gRegor has 9 karma
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fkooman
cweiske: i guess CAcert is only relevant as long as Let's encrypt is not live, or do you expect use of CAcert after that?
#
cweiske
fkooman, could you guide me through the certificate URL generation?
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cweiske
fkooman, I'll probably switch then
#
fkooman
cweiske: certificate url generation?
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cweiske
even if I like cacert.org more from a philosophical standpoint
#
cweiske
<link rel="me" href="ni://indiecert.net/sha-256;WXXyBZDo1pZYiLbrCNGFtSdSamqEvSJJBRzpx-MNIUA?ct=application/x-x509-user-cert">
#
cweiske
what I wrote in github issue #3
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Jeena
neat, I got it implemented: "Jeena is playing right now: ..." https://jeena.net/
#
Jeena
the only problem is that the artwork shown comes from a http server and my website is https
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fkooman
cweiske: sorry I didn't see that, i wasn't subscribed to my own project, weird GH :(
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Jeena
ah I should cache it anyway
#
fkooman
cweiske: i'll look at it tomorrow and answer your created issues :)
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cweiske
thanks
#
cweiske
Internal Server Error
#
cweiske
[curl] (#60) See http://curl.haxx.se/libcurl/c/libcurl-errors.html for an explanation of cURL errors [url] https://cweiske.de/
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cweiske
when I try to use a client cert generated by indiecert
#
cweiske
but that's probably the cacert.org issue
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fkooman
cweiske: yup it is
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fkooman
60 = Peer certificate cannot be authenticated with known CA certificates.
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fkooman
super user friendly error handling :/
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cweiske
now I also understand why indiecert told me I have no certificate - I had my own client cert, but it was not from comodo/your CA
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fkooman
cweiske: yeah, it will only show the popup if you have one that is signed by indiecert ca
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fkooman
cweiske: it is an apache config option so your browser only needs to show the supported certificates
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cweiske
yep, I know
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fkooman
and not all 200 that you may have installed
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cweiske
I wrote an ssl client cert howto 2 years ago; http://cweiske.de/tagebuch/ssl-client-certificates.htm
KevinMarks_ joined the channel
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fkooman
cweiske++
#
Loqi
cweiske has 17 karma
tantek joined the channel
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tantek
good afternoon #Indiewebcamp!
#
tantek
hey aaronpk - since you're the only attending the Social Web WG who can post indie events - could you post one on your site for https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-03-17 and a FB POSSE copy?
#
tantek
nothing demonstrates social web expertise like actually adding to the social web using your own website :)
#
ben_thatmustbeme
good afternoon tantek
#
tantek
boom!
#
ben_thatmustbeme
what is linkslapping?
#
tantek
whoa it's a permalink IN THE FUTURE
friedcell joined the channel
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tantek
see now ben_thatmustbeme I'm going to go out on a limb and say IRC cultural terms like "linkslapping" and phrases like "slap x with a trout" etc. are things that have made IRC less than friendly to new folks, general population, and anything other than deep old nerd culture.
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tantek
linkslapping--
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Loqi
linkslapping has 0 karma
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ben_thatmustbeme
fair enough, though i had not heard the term 'linkslapping' until recently on the backchannel
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ben_thatmustbeme
finished sorting the user stories
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tantek
hahaha wtf is classname my-funky-padding ?
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Loqi
rofl
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ben_thatmustbeme
its descriptive
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ben_thatmustbeme
i seem to have some issue with my markup on there though
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aaronpk
yeah I set my permalinks to the event date, and I don't actually have a separate "publish" date for posts, which is going to be a problem with readers
#
aaronpk
so i'm gonna have to fix that
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tantek
aaronpk: I'm actually storing events (in my partially implemented code) in my storage *on* the date they occur
#
tantek
so my events will *also* have such a permalink
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rhiaro
I need to sort out event dates vs publish dates too
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tantek
the *act* of "creating" it will simply be a "reply" to the event
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aaronpk
yeah i like having hte permalink be the date of the event
#
tantek
like the first comment on the event
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aaronpk
but I need to set the dt-published to the create date so that readers sort it properly
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tantek
which is what FB does
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rhiaro
I have a 'todo' list of posts on my sites, which includes future events, and at the moment everything is listed under publish date
#
rhiaro
which is annoying
#
tantek
aaronpk - a-ha! a different meaning for dt-published vs. dt-start!
#
tantek
I like it
#
tantek
it totally makes sense
#
tantek
aaronpk - can you post a FB POSSE copy of your event https://aaronparecki.com/events/2015/03/17/1/socialwg-2015
#
ben_thatmustbeme
my permalinks are actually something i need to sort out. if I post after 7pm Easter, the permalink shows the next day
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rhiaro
oh yeah, there's dt-start
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ben_thatmustbeme
somehow i got my permalinks generating in UTC
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tantek
ben_thatmustbeme: I have a similar problem
#
tantek
since I haven't marked mine up with explicit timezone :/
#
ben_thatmustbeme
it took me a while to sort the timezones out
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aaronpk
ah yes. timezones.
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ben_thatmustbeme
especially since you also have to deal with the timezone the server is on
#
aaronpk
server UTC and explicit timezones for everything <3
#
ben_thatmustbeme
honestly my biggest issue was just dealing with mysql's interesting characteristic of always storing in UTC
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tantek
what is UTC?
#
tantek
what is a timezone?
#
Loqi
timezones are a way to create dependencies in your code on legislative bodies in countries you have never heard of[1] https://indiewebcamp.com/timezone
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tantek
that sounds like KevinMarks
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snarfed
hey tantek!…so i've been curious about something for a while…you can author arbitrary html in a falcon post, right?
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pwcc
G'day indiewebcamp
#
snarfed
so when you ask people to post events, etc., or say only certain people are able to post them…are you able to yourself, and your goal is to keep fostering community by having other people involved in events?
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snarfed
no offense intended, sincerely curious
#
tantek
snarfed: in a Falcon article or comic
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snarfed
oh, so falcon doesn't let you change the top-level h-* class manually?
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tantek
snarfed, I'm not yet able to post something top level other than an h-entry
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snarfed
got it
#
snarfed
might be a good/easy itch to add
#
snarfed
esp since it'd let you author events
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tantek
yes I can *embed* an event in an article
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tantek
snarfed - it is, and like 1/4 implemented ;?
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snarfed
heh got it
#
snarfed
and good point, embedding is probably good enough for e.g. events
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tantek
not for me !
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snarfed
that's what i've done when i've posted them and no one's complained (and rsvps have worked etc)
#
tantek
I'm expecting that anything I post people will view source and assume that must be the way to do it
#
tantek
(at least a few people)
#
tantek
so I don't want to lead anyone astray
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snarfed
understood. always more than one factor, though, and it's sad if that one has kept you from posting events for years
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tantek
snarfed, here's where I'm keeping track of all the implementation design details for Falcon events: https://indiewebcamp.com/Falcon#event_posts
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tantek
snarfed, there are *many* things that I haven't implemented on my site for years ;)
#
snarfed
sure, of course. my point isn't to implement more, it's maybe to do more manually
#
snarfed
(for the time being)
#
snarfed
but no matter. your site, your call, of course
#
tantek
sure - comics posts are manual for example (like any "article" but with particular structure of object > heading etc.
#
tantek
does A LOT manually ;)
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snarfed
great!
#
snarfed
manual events might free you from depending on others, at least in the rare cases when no one's around
#
snarfed
but anyway
#
tantek
sure, I don't mind RSVPing to others' events though :)
#
tantek
especially pretty cool in the different ways that aaronpk, benwerd, kylewm all handle receiving RSVPs and invitations
#
tantek
quite a diverse amount of interesting design going on
#
tantek
snarfed - it's definitely a pretty big itch - my home page has a manually updated (more like manually outdated) "next 3 events" box
#
tantek
which I could automate if I had events posts
#
tantek
snarfed, the other thought I've had, as I keep asking for others to post events, is almost a counter to your point about "free you from depending on others"
#
tantek
I feel like there's an aspect of community that makes it not only *ok* to depend on others but even a good thing, as you typically end up depending on each other for *different* things, which I think strengthens the community overall.
#
tantek
Just a thought.
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snarfed
yup. hence the "your goal is to keep fostering community" part of my initial msg
#
snarfed
understood
#
tantek
especially when others are already doing a great job
#
tantek
depending on someone is a form of recognition / props / compliment
#
tantek
I realize such "depending" appears counter to the implied core "indepedence" value of INDIEwebcamp, yet I think there's a difference between independents depending on each other, as peers, and individuals depending on orgs.
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snarfed
right, that context for "indie" is pretty clear
#
tantek
of course there are those that would rather do / pursue everything independently, and that's fine too
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tantek
checks to see if there's a FB POSSE copy yet
#
tantek
aaronpk, got a moment post a FB POSSE copy of https://aaronparecki.com/events/2015/03/17/1/socialwg-2015 ?
#
tantek
even just a skeleton with the same info as your post - happy to help expand it if you co-admin me
#
tantek
but I think you need to post it in order for the Bridgy backfeed to your indie event to work
#
tantek
will make an excellent demonstration for all the non-implementers ;)
#
aaronpk
will do
#
tantek
thanks!
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rhiaro
aaronpk I just sent my post I already had about socialwg f2f as reply to yours using your webmention form, but realised I don't link to your post in mine, as I made it a while ago
#
rhiaro
Do you automatically check for that, or can you accept responses from posts that don't link?
#
rhiaro
Maybe I should just add a link
#
aaronpk
if there's no link then it just looks like a spam webmention
#
aaronpk
i see the failure in my logs
#
rhiaro
currently my publishing process is a massive hassle though, so I don't have time to update the post right now..
#
tantek
rhiaro: if there's no in-reply-to link, then it's not a reply ;)
#
tantek
a reply requires linked content ;)
#
rhiaro
yes, I know, I realised after I hit send
#
tantek
wonders how many linked data jokes he can get in any given social web discussion ;)
#
rhiaro
Maybe events are a use case for not needing this...?
#
tantek
rhiaro: nonsense! everything must have a URL.
#
rhiaro
Well, I made my post first, but it still works as an rsvp if someone else makes an official event post afterwards
#
tantek
it doesn't because it is undefined what you are RSVPing *to*
#
tantek
did you create a local URL for the event yourself?
#
rhiaro
yeah, alright
#
tantek
since you posted first?
#
rhiaro
but I'm not actually accepting webmentions yet, so it was no good me advertising it to people..
#
tantek
rhiaro: looks like a post (article), not an event: http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http://rhiaro.co.uk/2015/02/social-web-f2f
#
rhiaro
also it's not an event, just a post
#
rhiaro
my events stuff needs tidying up
#
tantek
it's a great start
#
rhiaro
that's next on my list
#
tantek
my events stuff needs more implementing
#
tantek
so you're way ahead ;)
#
rhiaro
events is my biggest itch currently
#
tantek
rhiaro: it's my biggest itch, but also involves a lot to implemet, hence it's been an incremental thing
#
rhiaro
I also really need to get on webmentions
#
tantek
in case it helps, I try to iterate on my events implementation design thinking in public here: https://indiewebcamp.com/Falcon#event_posts
#
rhiaro
I'm hoping to be sending and receiving before next IWC, but I'm not sure when I'll have time..
#
tantek
you can always manually send webmentions
#
tantek
receving / showing is much harder (without a js embed)
#
tantek
hence why that's the next thing after my event posts in my to implement list
#
tantek
now that I've pasted that URL twice, time to wiki link
#
rhiaro
I'm not expecting to host events pages myself for people to reply to in general. I'm going to work with jarofgreen to get webmentions in opentechcalendar, then do all my events through that, and rsvp from my site
#
rhiaro
since most events, at least ones I attend in scotland, are on there, and if they're not I can add them
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#
acegiak
GWG: So the new version of post-kinds has the new structure and a migration function?
#
KevinMarks
js embed is a good stopgap
#
rhiaro
although longer term hopefully we can get something working so I can post an event on my site initially, send a wm to opentechcalendar and have it create a public event on there for me or something... but probably jarofgreen needs to implement indieauth and micropub first
#
tantek
rhiaro: that's more like POSSE your event to opentechcalendar
#
tantek
the same way that a bunch of us are posting indie events and POSSEing a copy to FB
#
tantek
we don't actually have a webmention POSSE protocol defined yet!
#
rhiaro
hm, yeah
#
tantek
(thought that might be something that could be interesting)
#
tantek
for an indieweb /friendly aggregator to implement
#
aaronpk
that's more like micropub
#
snarfed
aaronpk++
#
Loqi
aaronpk has 725 karma
#
tantek
aaronpk except you don't need permission
#
snarfed
two existing precedents for wm-based syndication are indienews and bridgy publish
#
aaronpk
of course you do. you need a facebook login to create facebook events
#
rhiaro
yes, you'd still need to post *as* someone
#
tantek
rhiaro: no - that's implied from the author of the post you're POSSEing
#
tantek
in fact you wouldn't want to allow someone to "take over" a copy of someone else's event
#
tantek
(at least not without permission from the original author)
#
rhiaro
well, you need an account on opentechcal to post
#
tantek
(vis-a-vis adding an event co-admin)
#
tantek
rhiaro: you shouldnt! that's the whole point of indieauth
#
tantek
you shouldn't have to create accounts everywhere you want to post
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tantek
do it all with your URL
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tantek
what is opentechcalendar?
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rhiaro
I was going to say I'm hoping to persuade james to implement indieauth on opentechcal, which is what I meant as a way to post as someone
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aaronpk
aggregator sites make sense to not require an account
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aaronpk
in fact calagator.org has no account system
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aaronpk
it's a publicly editable events calendar
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rhiaro
opentechcal has complicated wiki-like version tracking
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aaronpk
so does calagator
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rhiaro
oh, cool
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aaronpk
makes it easy to roll back spam edits
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kylewm
i love the idea of a shared calendar that aggregates indie events
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aaronpk
that's what I wanna do with indienews
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tantek
kylewm: that was the basis of upcoming.org
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rhiaro
opentechcal creator is helping me with organising IWC Edinburgh, and he's definitely interested in making it indiewebbie
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tantek
and if we can get all this working, we can likely talk Andy Baio into implementing the protocols so that the new Upcoming is indieweb based
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rhiaro
maybe we'll even have it ready by IWC Edinburgh
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tantek
or at least indieweb /friendly
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tantek.com
edited /event (+966) "add IndieWeb Itches with Tantek and Amy"
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tantek
alright rhiaro I captured your well laid plans from IRC into the wiki ;) http://indiewebcamp.com/event#IndieWeb_Itches
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rhiaro
updating my user page with itches is also an itch :p
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tantek.com
edited /User:Rhiaro.co.uk (+46) "itches stub, link to existing itch documentation"
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tantek
rhiaro: there you go ;)
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rhiaro
haha, thanks
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snarfed
kylewm: probably just another plumbing tool, a la amazon sqs
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snarfed
not sure what it's built on yet, but i'll know by tonight. i expect it's solid enough
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tantek
aaronpk, why do the your and my RSVP / invitations icons here look weird? https://aaronparecki.com/events/2015/03/17/1/socialwg-2015
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aaronpk
it's the thing that powers google's push notifications so yeah
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kylewm
snarfed: it's orthogonal to PubSubHubbub despite similar names, right?
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aaronpk
kylewm: yeah it's just backend plumbing
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snarfed
kylewm: aaronpk: yeah. more like sqs, rabbit, celery etc
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aaronpk
tantek: oops I must be setting the image height to a square but facebook is providing rectangle icons
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Loqi
slack/kevinmarks: Writing is not yet available on mobile devices.
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snarfed
pubsub is a generic name for the functionality
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rhiaro
a related itch, which I expressed in a socialwg user story, is being able to post photos of an event afterwards and have people who attended authorised to see them, entirely via them having rsvp'd or checked in to the event post
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tantek
what is pubsub?
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kylewm
aaronpk: I don't think Google Cloud PubSub == Google Cloud Messagaing
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Loqi
slack/kevinmarks: That was a quote from <https://medium.com/about/how-do-i-write-5ab1de76e764>
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aaronpk
kylewm: oh sorry you're right, "supporting critical applications like Google Cloud Monitoring"
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aaronpk
misread that as "messaging" this morning
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tantek
what is Google Cloud PubSub?
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kylewm
Google Cloud PubSub is a new messaging service, in the vein of Amazon SQS, RabbitMQ, Celery, etc. http://googlecloudplatform.blogspot.com/2015/03/using-Google-Cloud-pubsub-to-Connect-applications-and-data-streams.html
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loqi.me
created /Google_Cloud_PubSub (+244) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-03-04/line/1425509543567 and dfn added by kylewm"
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tantek.com
edited /pubsub (+177) "dfn, via snarfed and IRC discussion"
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kylewm
hmm, I probably shouldn't have done that
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tantek.com
edited /Google_Cloud_Pub/Sub (+56) "linky, see also"
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tantek
you can always move it back
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tantek
they really put a "/" in the name?
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snarfed
tantek: that page isn't quite right. the earlier content for realtime notifications of publisher updates is all good, but pubsub isn't really the term for it
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tantek
who did the work? the IBM OS/2 team?
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snarfed
…or at least, pubsub is a lower level, more generic term not restricted to push notifs or content publishers/consumers
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snarfed
not sure how to help fix
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tantek
snarfed: we do have a page on /notifications
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KevinMarks_
So should we ask Rohit to implement PuSH with it?
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snarfed
right. i'm saying, pubsub probably isn't the right name for that page, and the dfn should probably be reverted
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tantek
also better if generic terms are defined in more user-centric terms first
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tantek
and also include plumbing specific meanings
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tantek
rather than *only* be plumbing centric
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tantek
basically, ask yourself, will / do salespeople use the term? then you need to provide a user-centric definition for it
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kylewm
we need some dedupe/cleanup .. on /pubsub and /push-vs-pull
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snarfed
i'm not sure how to help. there's no clear single user-centric use case for pubsub-the-plumbing, just like dbs or filesystems.
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tantek
has definitely heard sales / marketing people use terms like pubsub
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snarfed
it's pure plumbing
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tantek
usually there's some point at which users are exposed to it
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tantek
e.g. for dbs and filesystems, backups
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snarfed
in some cases but not always
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snarfed
pubsub is commonly used in data processing that end users don't see/use at all
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tantek
even if not *doing* the backups, knowing about them, and knowing about how to restore / revert
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tantek
snarfed, and there was a pubsub.com user visible / usable service
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tantek
so there is user-centric precdenc
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snarfed
sure! sorry, i'm being unclear. there are definitely user visible use cases. it's just that none of them are canonical
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tantek
what is Amazon SQS
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tantek
what is RabbitMQ
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snarfed
e.g. http://aws.amazon.com/sqs/ is a quintessential pubsub service, and no end user would ever use it
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tantek
what is Celery
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snarfed
anyway. i'll take a stab at editing.
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kylewm
crud, I may be the only indieweb user of Celery rn, does that mean I have to edit that :(
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kylewm
Celery is a [[Python]]-based asynchronous work queue.
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snarfed
what is plumbing
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loqi.me
created /Celery (+80) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-03-04/line/1425509912719 and dfn added by kylewm"
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Loqi
Plumbing in the context of the IndieWeb, refers to all the underlying code, backend setup, protocols, formats that is all merely there to support the design and user experience of a site, the actual user visible and interactive parts https://indiewebcamp.com/plumbing
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tantek
what is a work queue?
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kylewm
3 minute time limit is not enough to come up with good, jargon-free user-centric definitions of things :)
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aaronpk
haha i can increase it
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aaronpk
now it's at 10 minutes
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kylewm
woohoo
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kylewm
aaronpk++
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Loqi
aaronpk has 726 karma
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tantek
what is jargon?
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snarfed.org
edited /pubsub (+354) "half-assed disambiguate"
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GWG
acegiak: Correct
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snarfed.org
edited /pubsub (+1) "google => android"
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kylewm.com
edited /Celery (+560) "better definition"
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kylewm.com
edited /queueing (+4) "/* Message Queues */ linkify Celery"
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kylewm
Celery is really a sledgehammer for what I'm doing with it
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tantek
snarfed: does Bridgy Publish POSSE invitation posts?
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tantek
to FB
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snarfed
tantek: no. looking to see if fb's api supports it
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snarfed
this is why we can't have nice things
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gRegor`
sad (facebook) trombone
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tantek
darn it
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tantek.com
edited /invitation (+1049) "/* POSSEing invitations */ details on FB and Twitter, note possibility of Proxying to Twitter"
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tantek
thanks for the reference snarfed - captured
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tantek
also started brainstorming how it may make sense to POSSE an invitation to Twitter - more brainstorming / plain text design to come
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tantek
once I've got POSSEing of invitations to Twitter working (whether manually or automatically), I'll write up a suggested way that Bridgy could do so as well
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tantek
hmm - of course POSSEing an invitation to Twitter then begs the question of how do the people you @-invite that way @-reply with plain text RSVP semantics that are predictable/discoverable/readable/parsable?
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tantek
and then that begs the question of an entire plain text event creation, invitation, RSVP flow
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tantek
uh oh
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tantek
dang it - I keep uncovering interesting design problems
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tantek
hah - scared him too ;)
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tantek
so that basically means figuring out the plain text authoring / interaction flow for all of https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/User_stories#RSVPs_invitations_comments_to_an_event
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tantek
at least I wrote up the user story
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tantek
I wonder - has anyone thought about plain text UI for "simple" post CRUD?
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snarfed
http verbs?
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tantek
snarfed except people don't txt in http verbs :P
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snarfed
hence the ducking :P
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tantek
there's also some overlap between plain text UI and voice commands
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tantek
hmmm … prior art …
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@kevinmarks
"@safari: What's hotter than #AngularJS, #Backbone, #Ember, #React? Pure, unadulterated JavaScript. http://t.co/Jzdf99PBse" HTML5 #indieweb
(twtr.io/wt42_koRXk)
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kylewm
tantek: boy seems like that would've been easier with a mouse
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tantek
kylewm: or a touch screen perhaps?
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tantek.com
edited /invitation (+619) "/* POSSEing to Twitter */ document plain text event UI rabbitholes, you know, as a trap for someone to come along and fall into"
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tantek
how to avoid a rabbithole, document it so someone else can fall into it instead.
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snarfed
indienerdsniping
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tantek
snarfed, I like to think of it as wikitrapping
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